The AC-Changing/Dual-Spec/"I'd rather play Rift" Thread

[Sky]

Because design by forum whining is a great idea.

[Paelos]

Because design by forum whining is a great idea.

That kind of logic is why devs never learn. Not all forum whining is bad.

[Pezzle]

True, but that does not make hundreds of posts a good whine.

[Amaron]

AC switching would not take much to implement, frankly. Especially if they're putting in dual speccing.

You'd be surprised.   There are always problems for something they never anticipated when writing the software.   Respecing is already in so the backend supports dual spec for the most part.

Either way there's still no rush.   People who want to play both AC's can just roll other characters while they wait.   There's plenty of content here.

[Sky]

True, but that does not make hundreds of posts a good whine.

Right, the loudest != the best.

[Bunk]

While Bioware games don't change massively in plot based on what dialog choices you make, there is still a difference. A playthrough of the same story as Male, Goody twoshoes, Soldier Shep is a drastically different experience from a Female, Snarky, Engineer Shep. I can play it through with different companions and make totaly different choices throughout the story. Yes, I'll end up in the same place at the end, but it is a different experience.

This is an MMO that has been slightly touched by Bioware story philosophy.  The experience is not significantly different.

To be fair, being a drastically different story hasn't really impacted my motivation to replay the same experience in past games. In WoW, I actually tended to replay the same starting areas that I liked as alts, despite knowing it would be all the same quests - the key was though, I was getting the experience of a different class. I played three different class Blood Elfs for example.

I haven't played Beta, so I don't know how much overlap there is between say a SW's early game experience vs. an IA, but I'm assuming its similar to WoW in that they don't even start on the same planet. If I like the experience of the SW's starting world, I'm actually likely to play another SW again. The fact that I'll have an alternate AC to select improves that experience for me, and increases my replay value.

Don't get me wrong here, whether or not these options actually go in means far less to me than say the item modifying being talked about in another thread. If it's a feature I don't wan't, I'll ignore it. I just get a little annoyed at some of the "OMG THe Sky is Falling! How can we have an MMO in this day and age without this!!!1!! " type reactions to features that didn't exist when I played WoW.I'm all for improvements to the genre that are clear improvements, but not everyone agrees that instant spec switching is one of those.

[Ingmar]

True, but that does not make hundreds of posts a good whine.

Right, the loudest != the best.

That's an incorrect statement; it might or might not be the best. You can't dismiss an idea just because a bunch of mouthbreathers are yelling that they want it; there's as good a chance that it would be a good change as there is that it would be a bad one.

[Draegan]

I think we've got another WAR on our hands, here.  Which shouldn't be surprising given the pedigree and EA's tentacled presence but it's still disappointing.  Ah well, I'll still enjoy it for a few stories-worth of playtime at least.

How much you wanna bet on this?   

[Rasix]

I think we've got another WAR on our hands, here.  

Ohh, I don't know.  I think at least I'll get past level 14 here.  I'm not sure how you all nearly made it to cap in that game.

[Draegan]

I think I made it to level 28 or 29 before I finally quit.

[Sobelius]

...I haven't played Beta, so I don't know how much overlap there is between say a SW's early game experience vs. an IA, but I'm assuming its similar to WoW in that they don't even start on the same planet....

Classes = Starting worlds:

IA/BH = Hutta
SW/SI = Khorraban
JK/JC = Tython
TR/SM = Ord Mantell

That said, the storylines of the two classes on a given starting planet only overlap as far as the current state of that area (e.g. local factional warfare/turf wars) and some side quests.

The IA/BH and TR/SM differences felt more distinct from each other to me than the SW/SI or JK/JC did.

[Sky]

That's an incorrect statement; it might or might not be the best.

Point conceded. In my defense, I'm not a math geek and used a sloppy operand.

About starting worlds: I played the JC and JK, there's overlap but it still felt like a distinct experience in the same setting. As the Knight I kept going over to places that had figured centrally in the Consular plot and wondering why I couldn't interact with them.

[Nevermore]

- Because if it is there, and its easy, I'm going to be expected to do it. I'm going to be expected to have multiple gear sets, two carefully planned out ACs, and to have practiced playing both effectively. If I refuse, I'll likely be considered gimpy and not worth inviting to group.

That's probably my biggest objection to on-the-fly swapping right there. If I play as a Sith Juggernaut, I don't want some group expecting me to change to a Marauder for the next boss or whatever.

I have no real objections to MA's suggestion that the ACs just be separate classes, but I can also see why they might want some level of homogeneity at lower levels.

This is the biggest load of bullshit I've seen yet in this thread.  I have never once in all the years of playing WoW ever been barred or kicked from a group because of a lack of a second spec.  Ever.

Edit: Let's just say for the sake of argument that this ends up being a problem.  It won't, but let's just pretend it would be.  You'd still have that problem without AC switching anyway!  "Hey DPS Shadow, switch to tank now or we'll kick you!"  Yes, I see that happening all the time.  

[Ingmar]

It helps having a dungeon finder type thing available of course. Which is my next big crusade. 

Also, let me put my half-assed casual raid leader hat on for a minute: multi-role spec switching makes it easier for *everyone* in my guild to get into a raid, even the people who choose not to do it. The reason being that most people *will* choose to do it, and the fact that they have a tank or heal spec hanging around makes it more likely that the raid will happen *at all*. So even for hardcore I ONLY DO ONE ROLE EVER purists, having this available is a plus IMO.

[kildorn]

Heck, we've had rare nights when we simply had too many healers or tanks or whatnot and people needed to fake DPS.

The reason you never see this happen in pugs is because I'm presuming you're in the spec that you have the best gear/playstyle for. Sure you could switch to a healer possibly, in your green con level 50 healing gear. Woo.

Spec switching doesn't cause you to be required to lug around multiple sets of gear. It just gives you options when life gives you 3 tanks, 4 healers and 1 dps logged in on the guild.

[Bunk]

- Because if it is there, and its easy, I'm going to be expected to do it. I'm going to be expected to have multiple gear sets, two carefully planned out ACs, and to have practiced playing both effectively. If I refuse, I'll likely be considered gimpy and not worth inviting to group.

That's probably my biggest objection to on-the-fly swapping right there. If I play as a Sith Juggernaut, I don't want some group expecting me to change to a Marauder for the next boss or whatever.

I have no real objections to MA's suggestion that the ACs just be separate classes, but I can also see why they might want some level of homogeneity at lower levels.

This is the biggest load of bullshit I've seen yet in this thread.  I have never once in all the years of playing WoW ever been barred or kicked from a group because of a lack of a second spec.  Ever.

Edit: Let's just say for the sake of argument that this ends up being a problem.  It won't, but let's just pretend it would be.  You'd still have that problem without AC switching anyway!  "Hey DPS Shadow, switch to tank now or we'll kick you!"  Yes, I see that happening all the time.  

Hey, fair enough. I stopped my WoW run before switching came in, so have no idea whether it was an issue. Just seemed like the kind of stupid thing that would occur.

You can't deny though that if I'm playing my SW as just a Juggernaught, and everyone having two ACs per character, it would double my chances of losing Tank loot to someone's "need" for their second spec.
Coming in to this thread, my only solid argument against switching ACs was that my gut told me it wasn't something I wanted. Now I'm just brainstorming more valid reasons to back up that feeling.

[Ingmar]

From what I saw at the low levels I played, the loot that dropped in at least the Esseles flashpoint was all named stuff like "Commando's Heavy Boots" or whatever; if they did that all the way through everything it would be pretty easy to restrict need rolls (or give a bonus to need rolls like the LFR thing does in WoW) based on *current* AC.

It also seemed like they were tailoring blue+ drops to the people there, Sjofn and I didn't see anything drop that wasn't for us. Could have been coincidence though.

[Jherad]

Yeah, I never experienced switching in WoW either, as per my earlier comment.

Again, I *had* been asked on more than one occasion to go back to the trainer to respec for a particular raid, and I remember at the time this was par for the course for certain classes, at least on my server.

If you don't think it'll be a problem, then great.  

[01101010]

IMHO AC switching should not be allowed. My reasons are my own opinion and my own meaning I give to the Adv Classes. But hey, wtf do I know... all I have is my opinion.  

[Nevermore]

You can't deny though that if I'm playing my SW as just a Juggernaught, and everyone having two ACs per character, it would double my chances of losing Tank loot to someone's "need" for their second spec.
Coming in to this thread, my only solid argument against switching ACs was that my gut told me it wasn't something I wanted. Now I'm just brainstorming more valid reasons to back up that feeling.

This is a dual spec problem though, not a AC switching problem.  Dual specs have already been confirmed as going in (or has it? I've lost track.) so this is going to be a problem anyway.  To pull a percentage out of my ass, I'd say maybe 75% to 80% of the time people were generally pretty good about only needing stuff for their main spec in random pugs in WoW.  But yes, there would be times the person healing needed the tank trinket or whatever.

You aren't going to avoid this problem by disallowing AC switching though, since most ACs already have two possible roles to fill.

[Nevermore]

Yeah, I never experienced switching in WoW either, as per my earlier comment.

Again, I *had* been asked on more than one occasion to go back to the trainer to respec for a particular raid, and I remember at the time this was par for the course for certain classes, at least on my server.

If you don't think it'll be a problem, then great.  

I do remember a time when WoW was first released when certain specs were deliberately gimped to the point of near unusability, so to get into a raid you had to have a certain spec or talent a specific ability.  See: trying to raid as a feral Druid when they only wanted Innervate (which at the time was the 31 point Resto talent).  That was more due to bad game design than anything else though, and went away as Blizzard actually started to make an effort to make most specs reasonably viable.

So if this ends up being a problem in SWTOR, you can look to poor talent trees as the problem.  Don't think that you'll somehow magically get into a raid just because you can't switch ACs if that's the case, though.  If it turns out (for the sake of argument) that all Sentinels are crap for raiding regardless of spec, you just won't get into a raid at all if there's no AC switching.  If there is AC switching, you can at least have a Guardian spec to raid with until the devs fix the problems with Sentinels.

[Paelos]

Or to put it another way, if you're a dps character, you will always feel pressured to switch if you like guaranteed spots in stuff.

[Pezzle]

It helps having a dungeon finder type thing available of course. Which is my next big crusade. 

Also, let me put my half-assed casual raid leader hat on for a minute: multi-role spec switching makes it easier for *everyone* in my guild to get into a raid, even the people who choose not to do it. The reason being that most people *will* choose to do it, and the fact that they have a tank or heal spec hanging around makes it more likely that the raid will happen *at all*. So even for hardcore I ONLY DO ONE ROLE EVER purists, having this available is a plus IMO.

Companions? 

A bunch of healers around with damage and tank companions would be just fine.  Unless you mean the level 50 raid stuff, I cannot say how that works out.

[Ingmar]

Can't take companions to raids. They go in dungeons fine, but dungeons aren't going to be an issue in composition terms anyway.

[Pezzle]

Ok, was making sure we are on the same page.  Amid the slapfighting terms and meanings can get fuzzy.

[Paelos]

Can't take companions to raids. They go in dungeons fine, but dungeons aren't going to be an issue in composition terms anyway.

That's a dumb design decision if there ever was one.

[Reg]

I think we should have the option to send our companions out on raids without our even having to go along!

[Ingmar]

Nah, it makes sense. Raids have to have a tighter balance than dungeons if they're going to work as 'endgame content' and because a companion is only about 60% as good as a regular player, if they balanced it for a group with maximum companions it would be far too easy for a group that is all real players.

I imagine that companions also don't play well with more complicated boss mechanics. I've already noticed them not running out of fire in the Esseles.

Now, they *could* have made it so the raids are balanced for a group where everyone also has a companion along, but that probably would make raiding healers quit the game.

[Paelos]

that probably would make raiding healers quit the game.

 

[Pezzle]

Nah, it makes sense. Raids have to have a tighter balance than dungeons if they're going to work as 'endgame content' and because a companion is only about 60% as good as a regular player, if they balanced it for a group with maximum companions it would be far too easy for a group that is all real players.

I imagine that companions also don't play well with more complicated boss mechanics. I've already noticed them not running out of fire in the Esseles.

Now, they *could* have made it so the raids are balanced for a group where everyone also has a companion along, but that probably would make raiding healers quit the game.

60% as good as which people? 

[Draegan]

Nah, it makes sense. Raids have to have a tighter balance than dungeons if they're going to work as 'endgame content' and because a companion is only about 60% as good as a regular player, if they balanced it for a group with maximum companions it would be far too easy for a group that is all real players.

I imagine that companions also don't play well with more complicated boss mechanics. I've already noticed them not running out of fire in the Esseles.

Now, they *could* have made it so the raids are balanced for a group where everyone also has a companion along, but that probably would make raiding healers quit the game.

60% as good as which people? 

Racist.

[Miasma]

I hope they do this.  One of the reasons I used to quit wow so often (before duel spec) was that as a healer I would really suck at anything single player, it was painful.  As far as I can tell this will be worse in swtor since if I want to be a healer I have to make that decision at level 10 and then proceed through the next 40 levels semi sucking compared to the more dps oriented AC.  I have been seriously considering just being another dps guy instead of the healer I normally am.

[Ingmar]

Actually THAT shouldn't be a problem, since your companion will cover a lot of your problems when you're solo.

[Fordel]

Every AC has at least one DPS tree as well.

[Pezzle]

Yeah, my Sage is mostly ?balance? Fun with force quake and throwing junked out droids plus I can heal!