The AC-Changing/Dual-Spec/"I'd rather play Rift" Thread

[Amaron]

Another thought:  If they did put in AC switching then that would ruin the possibility for certain types of AC specific story elements.   Yea they could do "replay" or whatever but that would break immersion in a lot of cases.

[Sjofn]

I feel pretty safe assuming they're not going to have those anyway.

[DraconianOne]

Yea they could do "replay" or whatever but that would break immersion in a lot of cases.

I'm not sure immersion is on top of their list, seeing as how there are great big red or green forcefields everywhere and how a Trooper is totally unable to use dual pistols despite being a combat expert.

Anyway, this thread needs more graphs, charts and Venn diagrams. 

[Amaron]

I feel pretty safe assuming they're not going to have those anyway.

If the game is successful I can easily see them adding the occasional AC specific story stuff.    There's zero reason to RUSH AC switching anyways.   It will take months before most people need it.   They need to concentrate on LFD and Dual Spec for the first big patch.

[Sjofn]

AC switching would not take much to implement, frankly. Especially if they're putting in dual speccing.

[Simond]

That's ... my point?

Sorry, read your post completely backwards. That's what happens when I go "Okay, one more post then time for sleep" 

[Modern Angel]

Yes, like the detailed AC stories now? My favorite is the one where you pick your AC. As I mentioned it goes something like this:

Dude: Time to make a choice! Go to your trainer!
Me: Uh... okay.


RIVETING STUFF! CAN YOU NOT SEE THE CARE? CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW MUCH BIOWARE CARES ABOUT YOUR AC CHOICE? IT'S DRIPPING WITH EVERY WORD OF THE 10 SECOND CUT SCENE! IT IS LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT CHOICE YOU MAKE IN THE GAME! SEE, THEY SAID SO! THEY KEEP SAYING IT!

edit: I have moved from being slightly annoyed at people who go into contortions justifying a shitty move which every other studio has eventually backed out of to JUDGING YOU COMPLETELY BY YOUR STANCE ON IT.

[Numtini]

That's about right. I was really shocked at how tacked on the AC thing felt.

[Sjofn]

That's why I feel pretty fucking confident there isn't any AC-specific story shit planned. 

[Lantyssa]

Assuming I'm not, that means switching AC would essentially change 2/3s of your skills and require an almost entirely new equipment set. So essentially, you are leveling two characters simultaneously. While I see the attraction - what if I only really play one guy and I want to go from Tanking to DPS - but it just seems to defeat the purpose of building the character.

You've never played a Druid in WoW, have you?

Edit:  Geez.  Four pages.  Star Wars threads move too fast.

[Modern Angel]

That's about right. I was really shocked at how tacked on the AC thing felt.

Right. I'll just repeat myself, because the sheer nakedness of the timesink apparently isn't as obvious as it is to me: if the goddamned AC choice mattered IN THE SLIGHTEST, you would have a fucking quest in about it NOW. You don't. It doesn't matter. It's never going to matter until they figure out how to keep the timesink aspect of it, then they'll come up with a week long quest to do to quiet down the caterwauling from people who want to switch classes and/or avoid alting through the same content. Which is going to be everyone two months in.

If you think AC switching is a big massive deal you're dumber than Funcom. Congratulations!

[01101010]

Of course it is a timesink. It's an MMO, the whole fucking premise is a timesink. Christ, the voiceovers are the emphasis point - they slow down the mad rush and put the story back into the spotlight at the expense of time.

edit: actually didn't mean to use the quote, apologies. That is what I get for posting with post-drinking bloodshot eyes. 

[Modern Angel]

Read the sentence very carefully. Tell me what the qualifier is:

I'll just repeat myself, because the sheer nakedness of the timesink apparently isn't as obvious as it is to me

[Numtini]

It'll be interesting to see how long it takes the skip all scenes know everything from beta ubers to reach 50.

[Mosesandstick]

Somewhere around 2+ weeks.

[Fordel]

Not even that long probably, depending on the class.

[Bunk]

Wow, the frothing at the mouth in this thread is getting impressive.

I took a little time to think about why I'm opposed to easy, on the fly switching. One of the reasons for it that people have stated, is that since AC's share a common storyline, they don't want to have to play the story again to try a different role or aspect for the character. I on the other hand, feel exactly the opposite about that.

While Bioware games don't change massively in plot based on what dialog choices you make, there is still a difference. A playthrough of the same story as Male, Goody twoshoes, Soldier Shep is a drastically different experience from a Female, Snarky, Engineer Shep. I can play it through with different companions and make totaly different choices throughout the story. Yes, I'll end up in the same place at the end, but it is a different experience.

I have no problem with putting in options to let you change your mind and rebuild your character if you are really gimped or simply not enjoying an AC's playstyle. What I don't want, is to have it be done with a click of a button to just swap back and forth. I have no intent of using it. In WoW (I played pre dualspec), I think I redid my trees once, only becuase they patched in big changes, and I still stuck with a similar spec. So of course the question that comes up, is that even though I don't intend to use AC switching, why do I want to take that option away from people who like it?

 - Because if it is there, and its easy, I'm going to be expected to do it. I'm going to be expected to have multiple gear sets, two carefully planned out ACs, and to have practiced playing both effectively. If I refuse, I'll likely be considered gimpy and not worth inviting to group.

I'm an altaholic. I am likely going to play through some classes more than once, simply because I want to make alternate choices. I like the fact I'll have a different AC to use when I redo a storyline. If you make AC switching a standard, expected part of gameplay, it will take away part of my own personal replayability factor.

Note, I inherently don't have any problem with putting in relatively easy respecing within an AC, or even dual-specing. I just don't want on the fly AC switching.

[Jherad]

- Because if it is there, and its easy, I'm going to be expected to do it. I'm going to be expected to have multiple gear sets, two carefully planned out ACs, and to have practiced playing both effectively. If I refuse, I'll likely be considered gimpy and not worth inviting to group.

That's probably my biggest objection to on-the-fly swapping right there. If I play as a Sith Juggernaut, I don't want some group expecting me to change to a Marauder for the next boss or whatever.

I have no real objections to MA's suggestion that the ACs just be separate classes, but I can also see why they might want some level of homogeneity at lower levels.

[Paelos]

Did that ever happen to you in WoW?

Because I never once had to flip specs when I didn't offer to or didn't get invited to groups on the off-chance I might have a viable off-spec.

[Lantyssa]

Not a fair comparison.  All Paladins and Druids can heal.

Not all Troopers and Jedi can.  

I'm guessing you've never tried to heal a group with a ret paladin anytime recently.

I'm guessing you haven't seen Cataclysm's population numbers.

Edit (since I'm editing anyways):

While Bioware games don't change massively in plot based on what dialog choices you make, there is still a difference. A playthrough of the same story as Male, Goody twoshoes, Soldier Shep is a drastically different experience from a Female, Snarky, Engineer Shep. I can play it through with different companions and make totaly different choices throughout the story. Yes, I'll end up in the same place at the end, but it is a different experience.

This is an MMO that has been slightly touched by Bioware story philosophy.  The experience is not significantly different.

[Crumbs]

I imagine the developers of Fallen Earth would have some useful hindsight info on this subject. 

[Draegan]

I dont agree with AC switching because the advanced classes are separate unique classes.  Its not like a druid who can go feral to resto, its more like a rogue switching to a cleric.  It makes about as much sense for a Sorc to change to an Assasin to me as a Sorc changing to a BH.  As for the whole level 1 vs 10 on when to choose your class, who fing cares.

Its pretty much exactly like what switching a druid from feral to balance will be post-MoP.

No it's not.  It's like switch from a Jedi Shadow Kenetic Combat Tank to a Jedi Shadow Balance DPS

[Shatter]

Did that ever happen to you in WoW?

Because I never once had to flip specs when I didn't offer to or didn't get invited to groups on the off-chance I might have a viable off-spec.

I see it all the time in Rift.  Hey some of you rogues respec heals.  Hey some of you mages go heals, even for clerics who DPS are expected to roll heals when needed.

[Pezzle]

Add those points Bunk made to my list of objections to AC switching.  Flows nicely with my objection to mods.

[Pezzle]

No it's not.  It's like switch from a Jedi Shadow Kenetic Combat Tank to a Jedi Shadow Balance DPS

No, it's not (this is a fun game!  )

AC switches are not dual or quad spec tree etc.  Shadows do not heal, Sages do, that is the AC function.

[Jherad]

Did that ever happen to you in WoW?

Because I never once had to flip specs when I didn't offer to or didn't get invited to groups on the off-chance I might have a viable off-spec.

I haven't played wow in a looong time, but I had certainly been asked to change specs for specific things way back when, yes - and that IIRC involved going back to the trainer. Can you change specs on the fly now there?

Anyway, it's not a huge deal for me, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed whatever they did with AC swapping, but having a reasonable hurdle is my personal preference.

[Draegan]

I'm not against AC switching, but to me it's like asking to change my class after I pick it.  It just feels wrong, but I always like more options so I don't really care either way.

Not sure what the big deal is though, it's only level 10, and they just made that easier to do.

[Paelos]

It sounds like to me that you are all afraid that if you have dual specs you'll be asked to heal in groups.

I have two issues with that. Number one, there are companions in this game to use for healing purposes. Number two, you can just say no. If you're worried about getting passed over from groups because you are playing pure dps classes, I'm not sure you grasp the idea of MMOG supply and demand.

[cironian]

- Because if it is there, and its easy, I'm going to be expected to do it. I'm going to be expected to have multiple gear sets, two carefully planned out ACs, and to have practiced playing both effectively. If I refuse, I'll likely be considered gimpy and not worth inviting to group.

Agreed. I'm perfectly content with other people switching their AC around ten times a day. As long as the way it's implemented allow me to just completely ignore that feature, even when I want to group.

I think that would have to involve some nominal cost in time/effort whenever you want to switch. Even when it would be advantageous for a raid group to have you be another AC right nao, you probably won't have to if it involves you going off to solo foozles for half an hour.

[kildorn]

No it's not.  It's like switch from a Jedi Shadow Kenetic Combat Tank to a Jedi Shadow Balance DPS

No, it's not (this is a fun game!  )

AC switches are not dual or quad spec tree etc.  Shadows do not heal, Sages do, that is the AC function.

I'm not sure how "can switch spec to heal" is any different than "can switch spec to tank", or "can switch spec to dps"

Two of which any AC can already do. Adding the third seems completely trivial if you accept that the others are acceptable behavior.

[kildorn]

Did that ever happen to you in WoW?

Because I never once had to flip specs when I didn't offer to or didn't get invited to groups on the off-chance I might have a viable off-spec.

I haven't played wow in a looong time, but I had certainly been asked to change specs for specific things way back when, yes - and that IIRC involved going back to the trainer. Can you change specs on the fly now there?

Anyway, it's not a huge deal for me, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed whatever they did with AC swapping, but having a reasonable hurdle is my personal preference.

Yes, you can buy a second spec for *trivial amount of gold*, and it's a 10 second cast to swap them. Swaps all your hotbars as well.

I've never been asked to switch specs outside of a raid situation where you needed X spec specific class for an older encounter.

[Evildrider]

Just to add a some stuff by SR from the SWTOR forums:

Folks, please don't overreact about the possibility of something happening in the future.

Advanced Class switching (or re-speccing, take your pick) was, at one point, potentially going to go into the game. Right now, it's not in the game. It could potentially be added after launch. Like, frankly, anything else. To quote Georg "we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing".

This thread is feedback. It'll be taken into account by the developers, along with the usual metrics we look at. I'll say this much - any sort of Advanced Class changing is not under discussion for launch, or even right after launch.

Absolutely anything in the game is potentially open to change in the future. That's part of what an MMO is about. Your feedback on those changes is absolutely welcome, but just because we say that yes, something may potentially happen in the future... that doesn't make it a certainty.

[Modern Angel]

I have no real objections to MA's suggestion that the ACs just be separate classes, but I can also see why they might want some level of homogeneity at lower levels.

That's the ideal situation as far as I'm concerned. If they are full classes, as some people seem to think, make them full classes. If they're another spec, allow switching. They need to be defined as more one than the other and then treated accordingly.

[Merusk]

ED's stuff translates to me as "Yeah, not happening so don't whine when it doesn't."

Which means: look at those long-term numbers plummet!  All through the beta weekend all I saw from other newcomers was a lot of "wait, what do you mean you can't switch" and no "oh good, I'm glad you can't."  The only thing that mollified the first group was when the notion of it being added shortly after launch was floated.

I think we've got another WAR on our hands, here.  Which shouldn't be surprising given the pedigree and EA's tentacled presence but it's still disappointing.  Ah well, I'll still enjoy it for a few stories-worth of playtime at least.

[Paelos]

I love it when the dev response goes something like this:

Dev: That feature was discussed, but ultimately it is not going in at launch. Maybe sometime later, maybe not.
Hundreds of forum posters: But, we want it, and it makes the game much better. Not to mention 3 other games have implemented it with success.
Dev: We are monitoring the thread and taking your feedback seriously.
Hundreds of forum posters: Seems that if you were doing that, you'd notice we're in favor of this feature you discussed and then removed.
Dev: We never made any promises about features. Our game is subject to change. Please see the EULA.
Hundreds of forum posters: What does that have to do with it? We are pointing out things that would make your game better.
Dev: DON'T OVERREACT. WE ARE BEAUTIFUL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKES!