f13.net

Let's start this off with a bang!

https://twitter.com/#!/Rockjaw/status/141732030672154625


So yeah, I'm actually not as opposed to this as I once was.  Maybe it's because after I realized just how much time one is going to potentially put into a given character, and then realizing that I'd be locked into that role FOREVARZ, and subsequently realizing that to roll up another toon, even of the same class but diff. AC would just be clownpants.

Thoughts?

Thing is everyone who wants it wants expects it to be a dual spec sort of thing.  I don't think they'll ever go that far.   They'll at the very least make it very annoying to switch.

Hope to see it added sooner rather than later.

As much as people seem to want it, my gut tells me its a stupid idea. Everything I've read suggests that once you get past level 10, two of your three "skill" trees are based on your AC along with everything about your character's equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming I'm not, that means switching AC would essentially change 2/3s of your skills and require an almost entirely new equipment set. So essentially, you are leveling two characters simultaneously. While I see the attraction - what if I only really play one guy and I want to go from Tanking to DPS - but it just seems to defeat the purpose of building the character.

I see it like this - if Skyrim let me take my level 30 mage that I started with and with the click of a button reasign all my perks and skils, and redistribute my stat points - there's little to no chance I'd have bothered to make a second character as a rogue, and I'd likely be mostly done with the game by now. I really don't see that as any sort of good thing.

Maybe its just because I plan on playing every class through anyways, but if I get tired of tanking with my Juggernaut, I just plan on starting an Inquisitor or IA.

Have they ever said they're against dual spec? If so, why? I find it super curious why they don't have it in the game in the first place.

I like it. I'm happy they are opening up the options.

I am also against the switching.  This is not like a balance or shadow spec.  In SWTOR you will go from healer to not healer, tank to not tank etc within your own class based on the AC. 

It is dick in the ear pants on head bottle rockets out the ass retarded they don't already have a AC respec mechanic.  The "But it's a bioware game choice should matter" or "just reroll lol" crowd really needs to douse themselves with gasoline and light a goddamn match.

 :cry:

So in other words, I can solo as a merc then switch to tank-a-tech for grouped action? So what the fuck is the point of me choosing an AC spec at level 10 then? for the skill trees?  Unless they make it stupidily difficult to do, it seems to neuter the weight of the lvl 10 choice. In essence, we boil it back down to 4 classes that can swap bakc and forth. I am not full on opposed to it, but it seems a bit silly to do without some outrageous TO DO list in order to respec.

The primary stat for classes is the same irrespective of AC - so a healing Commando will rely on Aim as much as a tanking Vanguard.  As it stands, if you're min-maxing then you're likely to have a secondary set of gear within a single AC anyway (e.g. Vanguard Tank weapon (http://www.torhead.com/item/8pnn5gf), Vanguard DPS weapon (http://www.torhead.com/item/d9ZpWMO)). Other than that, the difference in weapons seems to me to be cosmetic.

Other than that, the arguments for and against AC switching seem to depend on whether you think it's analagous to swapping classes (e.g. switching from a Warrior to a Paladin) or respeccing skill trees (e.g. Holy to Protection).

.

Every single Western MMO which matters, EVERY SINGLE ONE, that has tried to do the "you get your real class at Level XX seven hours after you start" has changed it, either in beta or after release. Every single one.

It'll change here, too.

I agree you shouldnt be able to just switch whenever the wind blows, but there's no reason NOT to allow it.

Make it eight classes, you choose at the beginning. Done. Just like EQ2 and AoC ended up doing.

There's not even any story reason (THE BIG DRIVER OF THE GAME REMEMBER?) to do the choice, since the entire thing is just one guy telling you to pick.

If someone uses the word "meaningful" when describing the AC choses, or the phrase "my choices should MATTER" I'm going to laugh at you.

Meh. I do feel it cheapens your lvl 10 choice selection though. If that choice has no teeth, then why make it out to be the end all, be all of your personal path choice? And if this is done, will that voice over interaction that states you will not be able to change it later have to be redone? Again, I like the idea of a BH going merc for the solo stuff or if the group needs a back up healer, then switching out to powertech to tank group stuff. AS LONG AS IT IS A BITCH TO DO AT LEAST, it would be an option.

If you can AC switch at will why not just eliminate that aspect of the game and give each class 5 different trees?  Forget about the WoW spec stuff. 

Half this game's design doc is "WoW did it this way." You're asking something that, right now, is quite literally impossible.

Close  :awesome_for_real:

Well given at the time frame you pick the AC you really don't have anything in game to tell you what either of the AC is like just some descriptions. So from in game information there really is not enough to go on especially for people just starting the game to really make a permanent decision of that magnitude. There should be a way to change it but it should either be a limited amount of times like 2-4 times max or be expensive. So you can fix your mistake but you will pay through the nose to do it.

I should have added: given that the cutscene makes it out to be the end all be all of what your character is to become. Personally, I don't care that much, but the game sets the meaning.

If all people ever do is try to make the game more like WoW they have no right to complain about lack of innovation, derivative etc.  

This game is not WoW, stop trying to force WoW features and conveniences into it.  Allow the game to have SOME differences.

Agreed, as long as they are logical differences. Nobody likes a unique snowflake for no reason.

Uh, I'm criticizing Bioware for making it like WoW, not telling them to make it more like WoW.

They made crummy WoW talent trees and specs but added in the, as Paelos said, unique for no reason other than JUST BECAUSE AC switching nonsense. Fuck meaningful. If it's meaningful, it would have an actual story involved with your choice at 10. Not even Bioware thinks it's meaningful, because in their vaunted story game the choice is literally "talk to guy, go talk to other guy". It's a time sink for when you fuck up, full stop.

So you honestly want to switch between a tank and a healer on the fly?  Is this about not being able to find a group in a different game?  What is the burning need to enable a total character switch?  Honest question as I have no urges like that.

No, I don't want to put in the six to ten hours (depending on how busy I am chasing a toddler) to get to level 10, make a choice which is unfun because I can't even see the fucking talent trees except in a brief preview, and then spend another ten hours figuring out it's unfun. I can't do that anymore.

If they're different classes, truly different classes, let me pick right out of the gate. Funcom realized the system SWTOR is using is retarded. SOE realized it was retarded. Hell, *all of you* realized it was retarded before Bioware shat magic fairy dust all over these forums and it suddenly became awesome and meaningful. I'm tell you, even Bioware doesn't think it's meaningful. It's just a shitty design decision created to keep you rerolling.

You can have AC switching without making it on the fly. Have it something you have to go back to the main cities for and make it expensive. Its something you want to discourage but given how little information you have at level 10 when you make the choice I can easily see somebody playing one ac then having a friend doing the other one and realizing he made a bad choice at level 10 with nothing but a text codex entry to choose by.

Now if they had a quest line where you got to try out some of the powers or were demonstrated what the powers of that AC are then I would have less issues with permanent choice.

So if they were to build something in where by a certain level you could go back and choose again that would work?

I would be comfortable with an AC switching system where you had to store your character in a training facility for half an hour to switch ACs. You don't need to do it on the fly. You just need to be able to do it when you know that you're heading into a situation that evening.

Having two "independent" ACs share the same story in a story-based MMO is daft. Why should a player have to repeat everything because of a simple design decision?

How about you can switch at any time at a trainer, but you get reset to the beginning of level 10 whenever you do?

Because I totally get the problem of picking an AC at level 10, then finding out that you really dislike how it plays. But switching at max level doesn't feel right, just like you can't switch from a warrior to a priest in WoW.

IF THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLASSES LET ME CHOOSE AT LEVEL ONE.

This should not be hard to figure out.

If they make it too easy to switch I can see the JC/SI/BH/Trooper becoming even more popular due to the fact that they'll then be able to fulfill all roles in a group. They already seemed very popular from what I saw at the weekend, especially SI/BH.

They aren't different classes. That's why I guess I don't understand the flip side of the argument.

A paladin dps, tanks, and heals. A druid dps, tanks, and heals. A priest dps and heals. A warrior dps and tanks.

To me switching classes means radically different abilities, different armor styles, different mechanics.

I know everyone hated the Soul system in Rift and being able to choose what you wanted to do, when you wanted to do it. I also predict being able to fill all roles in GW2 will be a total disaster.

I would agree with this. If you really want them to be totally independent let me chose at level one and let me play with the powers OF that ac at level 1. That way by level 10 I probably already know if I am digging it or want to scrap it and switch before I have to much time invested. The current system even once you pick the AC its probably at least another 5 or 10 levels until you get enough of that AC's abilities to really have any clue if thats what you really enjoy or if the other AC would have been better.

So in my opinion if you want it to be a permanent choice then it should be that way from level 1 and bang each side now has 8 classes. If they stay with this pick it at level 10 with no useful information to go by method then there NEEDS to be a way to correct that choice if a mistake is made.

I agree that story sharing is daft, each AC should have a different story.  I also agree the information provided to players at level 10 is terrible and needs to be changed.  

I do not agree that we should have mechanics (be it timers or cost etc) to change AC's a virtually unlimited number of times.  Have a group of three and need a tank?  Have you considered using a companion?  This game is not that hard and scratching out that last % of efficiency is largely not needed.  Raids may be a different story, but that is a raid.

But you can switch between Tanking, DPS and Healer if you're either a Pally or a Druid.

It just boils down to this.  But it probably helped them only have to develop 8 newbie stories rather than 16.

Not a fair comparison.  All Paladins and Druids can heal.

Not all Troopers and Jedi can.  

Hell, the stories don't bug me. Let the pairs have the same stories. Just don't make me sink hours into something that I may hate. Give me important powers early and often. If there's one difference that's awesome in post-AoC/WAR debacle MMOs, it's that you get a feel for your class early in these games. WoW, Rift, current patched up EQ2....

The problem I have with people saying that Pallys, Shamans and Druids can heal regardless of spec is that the paradigm is changing.  Come Pandaria, the actual 'useful' healing spells that all Pallys, Shamans and Druids normally get is being changed to 'heal-spec only'.  Essentially, WoW is taking on the AC thing itself, in that at level 10, you pick your talent spec, and you're now given the use of spells and abilities based on that spec, locking out the use of any other skills that are made unique.

Obviously that could change between now and release, but right now, the argument is slowly becoming moot.

You can actually now preview your tree and get an idea of what you're looking at.  Previously all you had was some loretext from the NPC.

I like dual-tri-quad spec ideas.  I really want to be able to save specs for Solo and PVE and do the tank/dps or heal/dps combo for each.  Then I want to be able to have a PVP spec etc.  Normal arguments all around, and I'm not sure why I can't keep buying slots to "save" specs in.  Limiting that is stupid especially when the only limiting factor is me running back to town and talking to an NPC.  It's just a user friendly thing.

We can all agree on that.

The AC changing thing doesn't feel right.  To me, it's like asking for the ability to change from a Rogue to a Mage.  But because there is a common, shared experience from levels 1-10, it's perceived that you should be able to make that choice any time.  

The psychology is kind of funny.  Currently, no one is asking to be able to change their class, or really expects to be able to do, at max level.  No one in WOW really expect to be able to switch from a Rogue to a Priest at level 70 in WOW (contrast that from changing between a Jedi Shadow and a Jedi Sage at level 40 in TOR).  It's accepted that at level 0 we chose Rogue or Priest and that is a permanent choice.

Now, conversely, in TOR we select Consular at level 0 and at level 10 we are asked to make a similar choice.  Yet because there is a shared experience of the "Consular" from levels 1-10 then people think that they should not have to make a permanent choice again.  Why not?

You are given even less information at the character creation screen about the Jedi Consular then when you have to decide  between a Shadow or a Sage.  

So why do people want AC changing?

Also, let it be known that I'm not advocating for not having AC change, because I'd love it.  Give me access to even more options is always a great thing, hell I'd love to be able to reactivate my old WOW account and change my DK to a Mage too.

Edit: Consular =/= Councilor

I find the psychology in what you said funny.  Rogue and Priest aren't just different in their functions, but they're different in their mechanics, resource management (combo points vs mana), class quests, trainers and share no abilities, talent trees or stat requirements. The same can't be said for Commando and Vanguard. So trying to distinguish two ACs that share a skill tree, a story, abilities, trainers, primary stats etc is seems to me to be nothing like a rogue and priest.

It's not like people are asking to go from Commando to Scoundrel is it? Yet by the argument people are using against AC switching (being able to tank or heal at choice? Oh noes!), they should be in favour of the switch from Commando (Heal or DPS) to Scoundrel (Heal or DPS) because there's no tanking involved. And yet I suspect that everybody would agree that was patently ridiculous.

For AC changing, i'd like to see this implemented as a 'you know, I think I made a mistake, I'd actually like to be a XYZ' mechanic with some hoops to jump through (nothing too major. but more than a button press).

On the other hand, I would *really* like to see hotswappable skill tree builds within an AC - eg. for a Sith Juggernaut, the ability to press a button out of combat, and change from my set DPS vengeance-heavy point assignment to a raid tanking immortal-heavy one. That would enable me to have fun whether soloing or grouping/raiding without completely breaking immersion/equipment/hotbars.

See, I can't get on board with this, either. It's bugging MORE as I think about it, but I'm really pretty annoyed that this huge major choice doesn't rate anything other than a two click (giver, target) fedex quest. So no, if it's not important enough to rate something as involved as a class quest stop then the devs don't get to then say MAJOR DEAL DUDES SINK 75K AND AN EPIC QUEST CHAIN.

I worded that badly.   They will definitely add dual spec.  There's no way in hell they'll make AC switching simple though.   I'm guessing it's going to be expensive and require doing a quest chain or some such.


He's talking about Consular.   Shadow vs Sage basically meets the requirements you listed.

I just realized I was typing in Councilor and not Consular!   :why_so_serious:

How about chosing your AC @ ten, fucking around with it till 20 and having to "confirm" whether you want to continue on in said AC or take on the other? Considering 10-20 are, from what I am told, more developmental levels anyway.

How about I pick at level one if it's a class, which people are insisting?

And if it's not a class, let me switch easily, just like a spec.

Those are the only two sane options. Anything else is dinosaur design kicking you in the nuts and if anyone in the world other than Bioware was doing it, it would be derided to high heaven.

Ideally, you'd have a chance to play around with both before making the selection.  Start giving skills for Sentinel and Guardian at around level 6, carry that to about 15 or 20, then decide.  Once you pick, you lose access to the skills for the AC you didn't choose.  There needs to be some sort of test drive, and classes need to be developed earlier - particularly Jedi Knight / Sith Warrior.

I don't see any reason you shouldn't have the option to pick at level 1.   I'd rather pick at level 10 myself.   It's not like they are limiting class abilities the way EQ2 did.   I don't see how you'd gain anything by picking at level 1.

There's nothing stopping you from deciding on your advanced class right at the beginning  if you want.  How does forcing you to make that choice at level one make the game better?

And actually, if anyone but Bioware were making this game there wouldn't be half as many doomsayers.  Predicting the downfall of a popular, successful development house is way more fun.

This. Every time someone's added more ability to change your spec/class/whatever it's been popular. I don't know of anyone who afterwards has wanted to change it back.

If people are really up in arms about the concept, make it a quest thing like betrayal in EQ2. Which oddly you can still do to change your advanced class even though they got rid of the concept.

But, but, but... if you allow AC switching the amount of content drops from 1600 hours to only 800!  :ye_gods:

My initial reaction on this topic was the sort of indignant "what kind of backwards mmo doesn't allow spec-switching" that I'm seeing reiterated here.

Then I rationalized (to myself) that ACs in this game are what we call classes in games like WoW and LotRO and etc. Everything fell together into harmony after that.

The dual-spec thing is another matter. They really should include that feature, regardless of AC switching.

Regarding the choice being made at level 10 vs level 1. I already know which AC I'm planning to play first (the tank/dps branch of Jedi Knight). I agree that the mechanic of having a "class" first and then picking an "advanced class" at level 10 is dumb, but how many of us are actually going to wait until level 10 to decide?

With the wealth of information available, some of it even provided at the official site, anyone familiar with classical diku party roles should be able to tell which roles each AC is able to perform. And if your role in a party is important to you, you can factor that into your decision of which AC to play.

And if you're not familiar with classical diku party roles, well, Hi. Welcome to F13. Take a look around the MMO forums. We have a rich history of tolerance for honest expressions of ignorance.

So just like Druids in WoW, and that game seems to be doing ok.  :awesome_for_real:

Plus, you can go from Tanking to DPS within an AC anyway so how is that an issue?

I'm biased against slightly, and would be happier with something more like a high cost/low revolve switch (like you could do it once a week or something). For the Jedi Guardian, I already have to keep two sets of gear for dps and tanking. With AC switching, I'd then have to keep all that heavy armor PLUS medium armor.

Then you get into loot rolling. With a Guardian, I can just greed all medium armor, who cares. Now do I need it even though I'm playing a Guardian, because I might want to be a Sent at some point? I wouldn't be too happy if a Sentinel hoovered up that heavy armor I needed from a boss drop.

But really, dual spec is the thing that NEEDS to go in. There's no reason for it to be missing. It's the single most disappointing thing about TOR, imo. I don't like both things being rolled into the same topic, they are radically different topics.

I have five sets of gear on my Druid.  FIVE.  Three sets are leather and two are cloth.  Rolling on loot isn't as hard as you think it is.  Is the gear an upgrade for the spec you're currently playing? Need.  If not, greed.

I'll venture to say that you are not this game's target audience.  :grin:

That's exactly like balance or shadow.

I'd be perfectly happy with a /50 command or full class switching. I'm tired of being forced to grind through stuff again if I want something different and I just don't see any downside other than the aforementioned "we can't keep them subbed as long."

That's because there isn't other than using my favorite words "matter" and "meaningful" in your reasoning.

I'm guessing you've never tried to heal a group with a ret paladin anytime recently.

Sure she is. I have about three and a half sets of gear on my warrior myself, and I practically define the target audience.

I don't know what the current situation is but I know that they were talking about having loot bags dropping in raids operations containing appropriate gear for your class or something. So presumably it will be appropriate for whatever AC you're currently in and not drop Heavy Armour for a Sentinel just because you're a JK archetype.

What is the current situation with that loot droppage model btw?

You're going to love it when you lose "need" loot to someone rolling "need" for a companion they don't even have out.  :oh_i_see:

Dual spec seems like an obvious thing to put in so people setup for raid healing and such can actually do stuff other than raid healing when they want to solo.

It's no where near that big of a difference, he says 50 posts later.

For me, it's because the stories are not going to have much replayability, and it is fucking retarded that I have to guess at level 10 which AC I'm going to like better. I was going to be the healer/dps spec for my IA and smuggler, but as it turns out, I hate how that AC dpses, and I still can't tell (I hit 18 on my IA) if I will actually LIKE the healing for that class. I don't want to sink a fuckton of time and effort into something that's going to turn out to be "lol, wrong choice," with the added dickpunch of having to repeat a story I've spoiled for myself. And I replay my Bioware games a lot, I can't imagine people less insane than me would be more tolerant of it.

Let's treat ACs as different classes, since that's what the anti-switch people keep insisting it's mimicking rather than a simple spec swap (which I disagree with, by the way). It's different in, say, WoW, because if I decide "man, I don't like this class," and pick a new one, I can do different shit to level that class up than I did with the original class (until 80-85, anyway ><), so at least I'm seeing something slightly new. That wouldn't be the case in SWTOR.

But see, you can change your spec in WoW. THAT'S the point being made. They're not taking out respeccing or dual spec in Pandaria. They know a paladin is still going to be able to switch a spec and bam, now they have all their heal spells and shit again. And it's just not a big fucking deal.



EDIT SO I DON'T MAKE A THIRD POST IN A ROW: By the by, I played a sage to 20-something and an inqusitor assassin to 18 ( :why_so_serious: ). Being able to swap between those ACs is just ... not a big fucking deal. I see it as no different from making my druid go from feral (bear, if you please) to resto. I use HUGELY different abilities between those two specs, but no one is going to claim my druid isn't still a damn druid.

So if it works in WoW, why wouldn't it work in SWTOR?

That's ... my point?

I was a little confused and had to scroll back to see when Sjofn turned into a hardcore LIVE WITH YOUR SPEC CHOICES type.

Dual spec just makes life a little more simplistic. You have three friends online, and you can probably all switch specs around a bit to make a good group. Or just alternate who tanks/heals for laughs.

I dont agree with AC switching because the advanced classes are separate unique classes.  Its not like a druid who can go feral to resto, its more like a rogue switching to a cleric.  It makes about as much sense for a Sorc to change to an Assasin to me as a Sorc changing to a BH.  As for the whole level 1 vs 10 on when to choose your class, who fing cares.

Add: They should add multi class specs however so you can change talent trees like Rift does once your AC is chosen.

Its pretty much exactly like what switching a druid from feral to balance will be post-MoP.

They did?

I smell sarcasm, not sure if serious

MA's posts are much easier to understand if you just assume really passive-aggressive sarcasm is the default.  :grin:

Does the Sorc and the Assassin have different storylines? If so, then I agree that they are different classes. If they are the same, then I think they are specs. I see that as the defining line of the argument.

Yeah same for me.

The gear changes for a few ACs would be odd, but not terrible. I don't see how it loses anything for the game to add it as an option personally.

Would most people here be cool with more interchangable skill trees like Rift? 

You mean that's not always the case for everyone?  :why_so_serious:

If those interchangeable skill trees make it so I don't have to knife people in the back while I am holding a gun because I happened to pick the healy IA AC, sure. But then I am back to wondering why that's alright, but switching the AC is not.

Who is actually in favor of what here though?   We're talking about two different ends of a scale here.

1)  Having the ability to very rarely switch AC because the you chose wrong/grass is greener.
2)  Full on swap with a button click AC switching.

I can be ok with 1.   Button click AC switching is going to lead to Devs being lazy about keeping all the talent trees viable.   WoW Hunters all around.

I want at least 1, I have no issues at all with 2.

I see merits of both. The important thing is that you should be able to switch. Now if they start tying it to some RMT shit, that's when it hits the fan.

Why can't we have like craftable respec tokens? That would be fine too.

I don't see any problem at all with 2.  Keep in mind that just because people would have the ability to have builds from either AC doesn't mean there'll be Guild Wars level of saving 10 different builds for use at any time.  I figure dual specs, or even tri specs, with both ACs being available is perfectly fine.

I think the legitimate concern there is that playing levels 1-10 (Consular for example) is nothing like playing either the AC's of Sage or Shadow. So you have wasted ten levels and the time to get them to figure out you dont like the Sage. Where as if you started as a Sage right at level one you might have figured that out sooner and wasted less time.

I dont like either one but would be okay with #1.

The only respec'ing Im actually okay with is being able to adjust your points with in your AC's skill trees. And even that shouldnt be easy or at the push of a button.


And to me AC's are completely different classes, stories dont matter, the mechanics are completely different. Even the skill trees can be pretty dissimilar. Look at the Sage for example- One skill tree is a healer/cleric, the other is a ranged dps/wizard.  Switching to a completely different AC (Shadow in this case) just because you shared the same first ten levels, doesnt matter.

It is no fucking different than a fucking WoW druid switching from feral to balance, or feral to restoration, except the name changes. The bear druid is not anything REMOTELY like the resto druid. But they're still the same class, people have been able to switch between those specs since the goddamn game came out, and were able to EASILY swap between the two at the push of a fucking button for years. The world did not end. You have to collect gear for both specs, but that's fine, and the price people are willing to pay. The dual ACs simply are NOT that different on the classes I played, one of those being the consular/inquisitor, one of the classes with ACs that people keep insisting turn into wildly different classes omg for real you guys. You know what it actually felt like? Like one side was me speccing to be a holy paladin, and the other was me speccing to be a protection paladin.

And the story ABSOLUTELY matters, because that's the main fucking reason to play this MMO. So no, I should not have to fucking play the same goddamn story over again because around level 25, when the class FINALLY FULLY FLESHES OUT, it turns out I fucking hate the sage, or the shadow, or whatever. The decorative thing in this game is your class functionality, not the story.

Except both Paladins can heal?  It is not the same.  I think you might be closer on the Guardian vs Sentinel comparison but in SWTOR they made a mistake with design. 

Now, maybe that is a fundamental problem with Diku design?  The topic is worth discussion.  In SWTOR if you can heal at all you can heal well enough for a group.  My regular partner is a Sentinel.  We do not NEED a guardian or other tank.  As a healer type with all of 8 points in heal tree (for the channeling) I can heal a group just fine.  Maybe someone more dedicated would use less resources but in the end we win.  Swapping between healing and non healing is rather huge.   

So, to allow AC changes is substantially different than a simple respec in WoW.

They can't both really heal. Yes, they both have (most of) the heal spells, but a protection paladin is not going to be healing an instance. Ever. And, as has been pointed out already, once Pandaria comes out, a lot of those heals are going to be stripped out and folded into when you pick your talent tree. And you WILL be able to switch between them all, and the world will not end, because there's no good reason to lock someone into something like that forever.

RAWR!  :drillf:


Sorry my opinion made you so angry. But I tend to agree with Pezzle.

Yes, you both seem to be trapped in 2002 or something.

I really don't see why AC changing would have any real impact on the game at all.

A feral druid or prot paladin isn't going to just stand back and heal. Last I checked, they had roughly a tenth of the mana pool, which means "cast twice and you're out", and have melee abilities to restore their mana so they have a recharging resource when doing what they're supposed to do.

Sort of like the actual difference between a Sorc and a Shadow. Sorcs and Shadows share a LOT of the same abilities, but they use them entirely differently because one has 100 force, and the other has 500 force. The melee one just has ways to turn meleeing into more force, while the caster does not.

If you even just gave a shadow one of the sorc heals, they wouldn't be a healer. They'd have an ability that ate 60 force (60% of their mana!) to heal someone for ~10% of their health. That's not a freaking healer.

But this all seems to be completely missing the point that changing specs is something you do IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING NEW. So going from Tank to Healer is .. the entire fucking POINT of dual spec.

Saying a Ret Paladin can heal is like saying someone with CPR training is a doctor.  You cannot heal a group with a Ret Paladin.  The heals they have are vestigial and are really mostly effective for out of combat recovery, which incidentally every single Star Wars AC also has.  And yet, Paladins can support a DPS tree, Healing tree and Tanking tree all on the same class and WoW hasn't broken!

I swear, if you no-choices people were designing a game it would probably end up about as fun as Vanguard.  :awesome_for_real:

Yes but those are all SKILL TREES on a single class. (ie changing that is simply respecc'ing)
What is being proposed is allowing people to change from one AC CLASS to another AC CLASS, each of which have their own distinct talent trees. Thats like going from Paladin to Hunter.
Not the same.

 :facepalm:

The difference is completely arbitrary. Also, shared story > anything else imo.

EDIT: And, actually, they share quite a lot more than a paladin and a hunter, like an entire talent tree, and all the same basic attacks.

Technically, you can play the Sage and then swap factions to play the Assassin and by your definition, since they have different storylines they are different classes. If I were to make an argument against switching ACs it would be that it would make me less compelled to make anything more than four characters, thus cutting the amount of content available. I wouldn't mind if they threw it in though.

No, that's not like going from a Paladin to a Hunter because Paladins and Hunters don't share a skill tree.  Shadows and Sages do.  That makes Star Wars ACs much more like Feral/Resto than Mage/Warrior.

Yes they share one of three talent trees. So? Still not the same as a simple respecc.

Hey if you want to get out of having to sit through the same story again and invest the time, just say that. But I think trying to compare this to a WoW respecc is reaching.

I'm not fussed about AC switching. I would have designed it in from the start, but since the opposing faction classes are all just lazy copy/pastes it at least gives you a reason to play both factions.

Otoh multispeccing within an AC is pretty basic stuff and I expect that in any post 2006 mmog.

Along with sidekicking, appearance tab, UI modification and the other 700 basic mmog mechanics that this game is missing...

It IS the same. Your reasoning for why they are not is not convincing.

The ACs share the same resource model, they have an overlapping skill tree, and they get the same baseline abilities. That is MUCH closer to talent specs than a seperate class. Fuck, their main stat is the same no matter what. That's actually EVEN CLOSER than, say, a protection paladin and a holy paladin.


The story already gives you a reason, and my tank-specced assassin does fuck all to help my friends Republic side who need a tank. And my sage will not be helping my Empire friends. That's missing the point entirely.


Incidently, I am glad they're "lazy copy-pastes." After DAoC, I don't have much patience for "similar but different."

Doublefrost Math, Best Math!  :uhrr:

Another thought:  If they did put in AC switching then that would ruin the possibility for certain types of AC specific story elements.   Yea they could do "replay" or whatever but that would break immersion in a lot of cases.

I feel pretty safe assuming they're not going to have those anyway.

I'm not sure immersion is on top of their list, seeing as how there are great big red or green forcefields everywhere and how a Trooper is totally unable to use dual pistols despite being a combat expert.

Anyway, this thread needs more graphs, charts and Venn diagrams.  :grin:

If the game is successful I can easily see them adding the occasional AC specific story stuff.    There's zero reason to RUSH AC switching anyways.   It will take months before most people need it.   They need to concentrate on LFD and Dual Spec for the first big patch.

AC switching would not take much to implement, frankly. Especially if they're putting in dual speccing.

Sorry, read your post completely backwards. That's what happens when I go "Okay, one more post then time for sleep"  :uhrr:

Yes, like the detailed AC stories now? My favorite is the one where you pick your AC. As I mentioned it goes something like this:

Dude: Time to make a choice! Go to your trainer!
Me: Uh... okay.


RIVETING STUFF! CAN YOU NOT SEE THE CARE? CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW MUCH BIOWARE CARES ABOUT YOUR AC CHOICE? IT'S DRIPPING WITH EVERY WORD OF THE 10 SECOND CUT SCENE! IT IS LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT CHOICE YOU MAKE IN THE GAME! SEE, THEY SAID SO! THEY KEEP SAYING IT!

edit: I have moved from being slightly annoyed at people who go into contortions justifying a shitty move which every other studio has eventually backed out of to JUDGING YOU COMPLETELY BY YOUR STANCE ON IT.

That's about right. I was really shocked at how tacked on the AC thing felt.

That's why I feel pretty fucking confident there isn't any AC-specific story shit planned.  :oh_i_see:

You've never played a Druid in WoW, have you?

Edit:  Geez.  Four pages.  Star Wars threads move too fast. :oops:

Right. I'll just repeat myself, because the sheer nakedness of the timesink apparently isn't as obvious as it is to me: if the goddamned AC choice mattered IN THE SLIGHTEST, you would have a fucking quest in about it NOW. You don't. It doesn't matter. It's never going to matter until they figure out how to keep the timesink aspect of it, then they'll come up with a week long quest to do to quiet down the caterwauling from people who want to switch classes and/or avoid alting through the same content. Which is going to be everyone two months in.

If you think AC switching is a big massive deal you're dumber than Funcom. Congratulations!

Of course it is a timesink. It's an MMO, the whole fucking premise is a timesink. Christ, the voiceovers are the emphasis point - they slow down the mad rush and put the story back into the spotlight at the expense of time.

edit: actually didn't mean to use the quote, apologies. That is what I get for posting with post-drinking bloodshot eyes. 

Read the sentence very carefully. Tell me what the qualifier is:

I'll just repeat myself, because the sheer nakedness of the timesink apparently isn't as obvious as it is to me

It'll be interesting to see how long it takes the skip all scenes know everything from beta ubers to reach 50.

Somewhere around 2+ weeks.

Not even that long probably, depending on the class.

Wow, the frothing at the mouth in this thread is getting impressive.

I took a little time to think about why I'm opposed to easy, on the fly switching. One of the reasons for it that people have stated, is that since AC's share a common storyline, they don't want to have to play the story again to try a different role or aspect for the character. I on the other hand, feel exactly the opposite about that.

While Bioware games don't change massively in plot based on what dialog choices you make, there is still a difference. A playthrough of the same story as Male, Goody twoshoes, Soldier Shep is a drastically different experience from a Female, Snarky, Engineer Shep. I can play it through with different companions and make totaly different choices throughout the story. Yes, I'll end up in the same place at the end, but it is a different experience.

I have no problem with putting in options to let you change your mind and rebuild your character if you are really gimped or simply not enjoying an AC's playstyle. What I don't want, is to have it be done with a click of a button to just swap back and forth. I have no intent of using it. In WoW (I played pre dualspec), I think I redid my trees once, only becuase they patched in big changes, and I still stuck with a similar spec. So of course the question that comes up, is that even though I don't intend to use AC switching, why do I want to take that option away from people who like it?

 - Because if it is there, and its easy, I'm going to be expected to do it. I'm going to be expected to have multiple gear sets, two carefully planned out ACs, and to have practiced playing both effectively. If I refuse, I'll likely be considered gimpy and not worth inviting to group.

I'm an altaholic. I am likely going to play through some classes more than once, simply because I want to make alternate choices. I like the fact I'll have a different AC to use when I redo a storyline. If you make AC switching a standard, expected part of gameplay, it will take away part of my own personal replayability factor.

Note, I inherently don't have any problem with putting in relatively easy respecing within an AC, or even dual-specing. I just don't want on the fly AC switching.

That's probably my biggest objection to on-the-fly swapping right there. If I play as a Sith Juggernaut, I don't want some group expecting me to change to a Marauder for the next boss or whatever.

I have no real objections to MA's suggestion that the ACs just be separate classes, but I can also see why they might want some level of homogeneity at lower levels.

Did that ever happen to you in WoW?

Because I never once had to flip specs when I didn't offer to or didn't get invited to groups on the off-chance I might have a viable off-spec.

I'm guessing you haven't seen Cataclysm's population numbers. ;D

Edit (since I'm editing anyways):

This is an MMO that has been slightly touched by Bioware story philosophy.  The experience is not significantly different.

I imagine the developers of Fallen Earth would have some useful hindsight info on this subject. 

No it's not.  It's like switch from a Jedi Shadow Kenetic Combat Tank to a Jedi Shadow Balance DPS

I see it all the time in Rift.  Hey some of you rogues respec heals.  Hey some of you mages go heals, even for clerics who DPS are expected to roll heals when needed.

Add those points Bunk made to my list of objections to AC switching.  Flows nicely with my objection to mods.

No, it's not (this is a fun game!  :awesome_for_real:)

AC switches are not dual or quad spec tree etc.  Shadows do not heal, Sages do, that is the AC function.

I haven't played wow in a looong time, but I had certainly been asked to change specs for specific things way back when, yes - and that IIRC involved going back to the trainer. Can you change specs on the fly now there?

Anyway, it's not a huge deal for me, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed whatever they did with AC swapping, but having a reasonable hurdle is my personal preference.

I'm not against AC switching, but to me it's like asking to change my class after I pick it.  It just feels wrong, but I always like more options so I don't really care either way.

Not sure what the big deal is though, it's only level 10, and they just made that easier to do.

It sounds like to me that you are all afraid that if you have dual specs you'll be asked to heal in groups.

I have two issues with that. Number one, there are companions in this game to use for healing purposes. Number two, you can just say no. If you're worried about getting passed over from groups because you are playing pure dps classes, I'm not sure you grasp the idea of MMOG supply and demand.

Agreed. I'm perfectly content with other people switching their AC around ten times a day. As long as the way it's implemented allow me to just completely ignore that feature, even when I want to group.

I think that would have to involve some nominal cost in time/effort whenever you want to switch. Even when it would be advantageous for a raid group to have you be another AC right nao, you probably won't have to if it involves you going off to solo foozles for half an hour.

I'm not sure how "can switch spec to heal" is any different than "can switch spec to tank", or "can switch spec to dps"

Two of which any AC can already do. Adding the third seems completely trivial if you accept that the others are acceptable behavior.

Yes, you can buy a second spec for *trivial amount of gold*, and it's a 10 second cast to swap them. Swaps all your hotbars as well.

I've never been asked to switch specs outside of a raid situation where you needed X spec specific class for an older encounter.

Just to add a some stuff by SR from the SWTOR forums:

Folks, please don't overreact about the possibility of something happening in the future.

Advanced Class switching (or re-speccing, take your pick) was, at one point, potentially going to go into the game. Right now, it's not in the game. It could potentially be added after launch. Like, frankly, anything else. To quote Georg "we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing".

This thread is feedback. It'll be taken into account by the developers, along with the usual metrics we look at. I'll say this much - any sort of Advanced Class changing is not under discussion for launch, or even right after launch.

Absolutely anything in the game is potentially open to change in the future. That's part of what an MMO is about. Your feedback on those changes is absolutely welcome, but just because we say that yes, something may potentially happen in the future... that doesn't make it a certainty.

That's the ideal situation as far as I'm concerned. If they are full classes, as some people seem to think, make them full classes. If they're another spec, allow switching. They need to be defined as more one than the other and then treated accordingly.

ED's stuff translates to me as "Yeah, not happening so don't whine when it doesn't."

Which means: look at those long-term numbers plummet!  All through the beta weekend all I saw from other newcomers was a lot of "wait, what do you mean you can't switch" and no "oh good, I'm glad you can't."  The only thing that mollified the first group was when the notion of it being added shortly after launch was floated.

I think we've got another WAR on our hands, here.  Which shouldn't be surprising given the pedigree and EA's tentacled presence but it's still disappointing.  Ah well, I'll still enjoy it for a few stories-worth of playtime at least.

I love it when the dev response goes something like this:

Dev: That feature was discussed, but ultimately it is not going in at launch. Maybe sometime later, maybe not.
Hundreds of forum posters: But, we want it, and it makes the game much better. Not to mention 3 other games have implemented it with success.
Dev: We are monitoring the thread and taking your feedback seriously.
Hundreds of forum posters: Seems that if you were doing that, you'd notice we're in favor of this feature you discussed and then removed.
Dev: We never made any promises about features. Our game is subject to change. Please see the EULA.
Hundreds of forum posters: What does that have to do with it? We are pointing out things that would make your game better.
Dev: DON'T OVERREACT. WE ARE BEAUTIFUL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKES!

Because design by forum whining is a great idea.

That kind of logic is why devs never learn. Not all forum whining is bad.

True, but that does not make hundreds of posts a good whine.

You'd be surprised.   There are always problems for something they never anticipated when writing the software.   Respecing is already in so the backend supports dual spec for the most part.

Either way there's still no rush.   People who want to play both AC's can just roll other characters while they wait.   There's plenty of content here.

Right, the loudest != the best.

To be fair, being a drastically different story hasn't really impacted my motivation to replay the same experience in past games. In WoW, I actually tended to replay the same starting areas that I liked as alts, despite knowing it would be all the same quests - the key was though, I was getting the experience of a different class. I played three different class Blood Elfs for example.

I haven't played Beta, so I don't know how much overlap there is between say a SW's early game experience vs. an IA, but I'm assuming its similar to WoW in that they don't even start on the same planet. If I like the experience of the SW's starting world, I'm actually likely to play another SW again. The fact that I'll have an alternate AC to select improves that experience for me, and increases my replay value.

Don't get me wrong here, whether or not these options actually go in means far less to me than say the item modifying being talked about in another thread. If it's a feature I don't wan't, I'll ignore it. I just get a little annoyed at some of the "OMG THe Sky is Falling! How can we have an MMO in this day and age without this!!!1!! " type reactions to features that didn't exist when I played WoW.I'm all for improvements to the genre that are clear improvements, but not everyone agrees that instant spec switching is one of those.

That's an incorrect statement; it might or might not be the best. You can't dismiss an idea just because a bunch of mouthbreathers are yelling that they want it; there's as good a chance that it would be a good change as there is that it would be a bad one.

How much you wanna bet on this?   :why_so_serious:

Ohh, I don't know.  I think at least I'll get past level 14 here.  I'm not sure how you all nearly made it to cap in that game.

I think I made it to level 28 or 29 before I finally quit.

Classes = Starting worlds:

IA/BH = Hutta
SW/SI = Khorraban
JK/JC = Tython
TR/SM = Ord Mantell

That said, the storylines of the two classes on a given starting planet only overlap as far as the current state of that area (e.g. local factional warfare/turf wars) and some side quests.

The IA/BH and TR/SM differences felt more distinct from each other to me than the SW/SI or JK/JC did.

Point conceded. In my defense, I'm not a math geek and used a sloppy operand.

About starting worlds: I played the JC and JK, there's overlap but it still felt like a distinct experience in the same setting. As the Knight I kept going over to places that had figured centrally in the Consular plot and wondering why I couldn't interact with them.

This is the biggest load of bullshit I've seen yet in this thread.  I have never once in all the years of playing WoW ever been barred or kicked from a group because of a lack of a second spec.  Ever.

Edit: Let's just say for the sake of argument that this ends up being a problem.  It won't, but let's just pretend it would be.  You'd still have that problem without AC switching anyway!  "Hey DPS Shadow, switch to tank now or we'll kick you!"  Yes, I see that happening all the time.  :uhrr:

It helps having a dungeon finder type thing available of course. Which is my next big crusade.  :why_so_serious:

Also, let me put my half-assed casual raid leader hat on for a minute: multi-role spec switching makes it easier for *everyone* in my guild to get into a raid, even the people who choose not to do it. The reason being that most people *will* choose to do it, and the fact that they have a tank or heal spec hanging around makes it more likely that the raid will happen *at all*. So even for hardcore I ONLY DO ONE ROLE EVER purists, having this available is a plus IMO.

Heck, we've had rare nights when we simply had too many healers or tanks or whatnot and people needed to fake DPS.

The reason you never see this happen in pugs is because I'm presuming you're in the spec that you have the best gear/playstyle for. Sure you could switch to a healer possibly, in your green con level 50 healing gear. Woo.

Spec switching doesn't cause you to be required to lug around multiple sets of gear. It just gives you options when life gives you 3 tanks, 4 healers and 1 dps logged in on the guild.

Hey, fair enough. I stopped my WoW run before switching came in, so have no idea whether it was an issue. Just seemed like the kind of stupid thing that would occur.

You can't deny though that if I'm playing my SW as just a Juggernaught, and everyone having two ACs per character, it would double my chances of losing Tank loot to someone's "need" for their second spec.
Coming in to this thread, my only solid argument against switching ACs was that my gut told me it wasn't something I wanted. Now I'm just brainstorming more valid reasons to back up that feeling.

From what I saw at the low levels I played, the loot that dropped in at least the Esseles flashpoint was all named stuff like "Commando's Heavy Boots" or whatever; if they did that all the way through everything it would be pretty easy to restrict need rolls (or give a bonus to need rolls like the LFR thing does in WoW) based on *current* AC.

It also seemed like they were tailoring blue+ drops to the people there, Sjofn and I didn't see anything drop that wasn't for us. Could have been coincidence though.

Yeah, I never experienced switching in WoW either, as per my earlier comment.

Again, I *had* been asked on more than one occasion to go back to the trainer to respec for a particular raid, and I remember at the time this was par for the course for certain classes, at least on my server.

If you don't think it'll be a problem, then great.  :oh_i_see:

IMHO AC switching should not be allowed. My reasons are my own opinion and my own meaning I give to the Adv Classes. But hey, wtf do I know... all I have is my opinion.  :why_so_serious:

This is a dual spec problem though, not a AC switching problem.  Dual specs have already been confirmed as going in (or has it? I've lost track.) so this is going to be a problem anyway.  To pull a percentage out of my ass, I'd say maybe 75% to 80% of the time people were generally pretty good about only needing stuff for their main spec in random pugs in WoW.  But yes, there would be times the person healing needed the tank trinket or whatever.

You aren't going to avoid this problem by disallowing AC switching though, since most ACs already have two possible roles to fill.

I do remember a time when WoW was first released when certain specs were deliberately gimped to the point of near unusability, so to get into a raid you had to have a certain spec or talent a specific ability.  See: trying to raid as a feral Druid when they only wanted Innervate (which at the time was the 31 point Resto talent).  That was more due to bad game design than anything else though, and went away as Blizzard actually started to make an effort to make most specs reasonably viable.

So if this ends up being a problem in SWTOR, you can look to poor talent trees as the problem.  Don't think that you'll somehow magically get into a raid just because you can't switch ACs if that's the case, though.  If it turns out (for the sake of argument) that all Sentinels are crap for raiding regardless of spec, you just won't get into a raid at all if there's no AC switching.  If there is AC switching, you can at least have a Guardian spec to raid with until the devs fix the problems with Sentinels.

Or to put it another way, if you're a dps character, you will always feel pressured to switch if you like guaranteed spots in stuff.

Companions? 

A bunch of healers around with damage and tank companions would be just fine.  Unless you mean the level 50 raid stuff, I cannot say how that works out.

Can't take companions to raids. They go in dungeons fine, but dungeons aren't going to be an issue in composition terms anyway.

Ok, was making sure we are on the same page.  Amid the slapfighting terms and meanings can get fuzzy.

That's a dumb design decision if there ever was one.

I think we should have the option to send our companions out on raids without our even having to go along!

Nah, it makes sense. Raids have to have a tighter balance than dungeons if they're going to work as 'endgame content' and because a companion is only about 60% as good as a regular player, if they balanced it for a group with maximum companions it would be far too easy for a group that is all real players.

I imagine that companions also don't play well with more complicated boss mechanics. I've already noticed them not running out of fire in the Esseles.

Now, they *could* have made it so the raids are balanced for a group where everyone also has a companion along, but that probably would make raiding healers quit the game.

 :Love_Letters:

60% as good as which people?  :why_so_serious:

Racist.

I hope they do this.  One of the reasons I used to quit wow so often (before duel spec) was that as a healer I would really suck at anything single player, it was painful.  As far as I can tell this will be worse in swtor since if I want to be a healer I have to make that decision at level 10 and then proceed through the next 40 levels semi sucking compared to the more dps oriented AC.  I have been seriously considering just being another dps guy instead of the healer I normally am.

Actually THAT shouldn't be a problem, since your companion will cover a lot of your problems when you're solo.

Every AC has at least one DPS tree as well.

Yeah, my Sage is mostly ?balance? Fun with force quake and throwing junked out droids plus I can heal!

I did it with my guardian/2x commando/smuggler something and a double-bladed saber with Dark 1 dropped from the Sith boss. Nobody could use it and it ended up on my shadow companion (who I wouldn't get for 5 or 6 more levels, I had banked the saber).
Don't throw 01101010, he's just got a spice problem!

I apologize if someone said this already, but my thoughts are as follows:

AC-switching really wouldn't be the end of the world for Warriors/Knights and BH/Trooper, but it would be much, much worse for Agents/Smugglers and SI/JCs.

W/K and BH/Trooper are all a seamless continuum of tanking, dps, and quasi-tanking and quasi-dps.  Yeah, switching would allow someone to go from an AC without healing to an AC with healing, but that doesn't seem so bad to me.  This is where the hysterical "GIVE ME ALL ITEMS AND 8 LVL 50s WHEN I LOGIN 1ST TIME OR THIS IZ EQ 1999" ranters have a point- it isn't a mage switching to a warrior, it really is more like a resto druid dual speccing as a bear or balance druid.  

Agent/Smuggler and SI/JC switching is worse for one reason:  each has an AC with perma-stealth.  I assume the EQ 1999 ranters would also wail and knash their teeth if they had to suffer the unbearable imposition of a quest to switch (or if they had to switch in the Fleet only), so let's assume a 10 second out of combat AC switch (akin to WoW dual-speccing).

Can anyone see the problem (especially in PvP, but also in terms of not rendering certain PvE encounters and quests trivial) in letting someone stealth into position and then morph into a long-range nuker?  Hint:  Its the same reason why no MMO ever, in all of time, has combined perma-stealth with long-range DPS.  

On balance, I'm against AC-switching (the huffy indignancy and breathtaking sense of entitlement of the pro-switching faction doesn't help either.  I truly believe that the comment someone made earlier as a joke (you should be able to send companions to dungeons by themselves and come back with the boss loot) will be the goal of said faction in the next generation of MMOs, and anyone who disagrees is an EQ 1999 masochist fascist).  

You can't switch specs inside BGs or arenas in WoW. I can't imagine this would be any different.

SWTOR has world PvP on half the servers.  I stalk people from stealth until the right moment, AC-switch, and nuke them from 30 meters- combining the best of both ACs.

And the point still stands with open-world PvE and instanced PvE as well.  Finally, given the aforementioned exponential growth in the sense of self-entitlement, I can't imagine the pro-switching faction would accept a PvE dungeon restriction (maybe they'd be ok with a PvP restriction- most pro-switchers seem to be, completely coincidentally, PvEers).  

Nobody gives a shit about world PVP balance.

Good thing we also know just how the switching mechanism would work.  :roll:

 :facepalm:

Sorry but the argument that once in a thousand fights the ability to stealth to a spot, then spend 10 seconds switching specs and then unload ranged dps is one of the silliest in the thread. Seriously, there's so little 'broken' in your argument it's silly, and absolutely not a good argument against AC switching.

Heck, if someone is still in place after all that time in world pvp surely they deserve to be dead!

Do you really think that is silly in world pvp?  With AC-switching, 2 out of 4 classes in the game get to walk around world pvp perma-stealthed.  You get to start every fight on your terms (or at the very least, walk wherever you want in perfect safety before switching to your "real" class).  You don't think that affects PvP balance?

And nobody actually addressed the world PvE point.  There will be encounters where assassins/operatives can stealth by a lot of stuff, but the devs can balance for that given the damage and melee limitations in those classes.  You don't think people will complain and say quests "suck" when you can bypass almost all of it, and then render the content trivial with 30m lightning bolts?  

Building off those points, AC-switching would devastate class balance.  With it, why would you ever NOT take a class with a stealth AC?  You can take any of the three roles (heal, tank, DPS) and get stealth to boot.

NOTE:  Probably isn't clear from my posts, but AC-switching based on a quest (or even having to go back to the Fleet) really isn't something that bothers me.  Nothing I say above is really affected by that.  AC-switching on the fly (even with a 10 second counter) really bothers me.

Hello, Balance Druids.  Also, any of the three archer classes in DAoC.

Edit: Wow, there's even more apoplectic rants about this.  It makes me wonder why 90% of the players in WoW don't play Druids so they can stealth around and nuke people with their Balance specs.


The same reason approximately 90% of the player base in WoW doesn't play the stealth-using, tanking, healing, melee dpsing, ranged dpsing Druid class.

Have starting to cast the class switch break stealth.  Then they're sitting there for ten seconds trying to get into their uber-PvP spec while the target has a chance to wail on them.  Kinda like casting anything else breaks stealth in SWTOR.  (Sith Assassin to 23, so I can verify this is the case.  Instant or get spotted.)

And that's less of an issue than Night Elves of any class getting Shadowmeld, which seems to have survived all these years just fine.

Seriously of all the objections that have been raised, this is the stupidest. It's like you came out of a time warp from 2001 when everyone was crying about shadowblades attacking with two-handed axes from stealth.

Ah, memories  :Love_Letters:

He nearly had an aneurysm when they nerfed rocket helms in WoW.  He gave the biggest shit, while everyone else just shrugged and played on.   If there's some stupid fringe case for PVP, Triforcer is all over it.

At least all feels right in the world since it's about a Star Wars game.  All we need now is Caella...