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Author Topic: The AC-Changing/Dual-Spec/"I'd rather play Rift" Thread  (Read 46166 times)
luckton
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on: December 01, 2011, 06:13:26 AM

Let's start this off with a bang!

https://twitter.com/#!/Rockjaw/status/141732030672154625

Quote
AC changing may happen post-launch.

So yeah, I'm actually not as opposed to this as I once was.  Maybe it's because after I realized just how much time one is going to potentially put into a given character, and then realizing that I'd be locked into that role FOREVARZ, and subsequently realizing that to roll up another toon, even of the same class but diff. AC would just be clownpants.

Thoughts?

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Amaron
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Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 06:19:25 AM

Thing is everyone who wants it wants expects it to be a dual spec sort of thing.  I don't think they'll ever go that far.   They'll at the very least make it very annoying to switch.
DraconianOne
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Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 06:19:37 AM

Hope to see it added sooner rather than later.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Bunk
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Operating Thetan One


Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 06:24:48 AM

As much as people seem to want it, my gut tells me its a stupid idea. Everything I've read suggests that once you get past level 10, two of your three "skill" trees are based on your AC along with everything about your character's equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming I'm not, that means switching AC would essentially change 2/3s of your skills and require an almost entirely new equipment set. So essentially, you are leveling two characters simultaneously. While I see the attraction - what if I only really play one guy and I want to go from Tanking to DPS - but it just seems to defeat the purpose of building the character.

I see it like this - if Skyrim let me take my level 30 mage that I started with and with the click of a button reasign all my perks and skils, and redistribute my stat points - there's little to no chance I'd have bothered to make a second character as a rogue, and I'd likely be mostly done with the game by now. I really don't see that as any sort of good thing.

Maybe its just because I plan on playing every class through anyways, but if I get tired of tanking with my Juggernaut, I just plan on starting an Inquisitor or IA.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
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Wolf
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Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 06:30:00 AM

Thing is everyone who wants it wants expects it to be a dual spec sort of thing.  I don't think they'll ever go that far.   They'll at the very least make it very annoying to switch.

Have they ever said they're against dual spec? If so, why? I find it super curious why they don't have it in the game in the first place.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Paelos
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Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 06:30:33 AM

I like it. I'm happy they are opening up the options.

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Pezzle
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Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 06:41:35 AM

I am also against the switching.  This is not like a balance or shadow spec.  In SWTOR you will go from healer to not healer, tank to not tank etc within your own class based on the AC. 
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 06:42:14 AM

It is dick in the ear pants on head bottle rockets out the ass retarded they don't already have a AC respec mechanic.  The "But it's a bioware game choice should matter" or "just reroll lol" crowd really needs to douse themselves with gasoline and light a goddamn match.
Bunk
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Reply #8 on: December 01, 2011, 06:46:23 AM

 cry

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
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01101010
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Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 06:47:24 AM

So in other words, I can solo as a merc then switch to tank-a-tech for grouped action? So what the fuck is the point of me choosing an AC spec at level 10 then? for the skill trees?  Unless they make it stupidily difficult to do, it seems to neuter the weight of the lvl 10 choice. In essence, we boil it back down to 4 classes that can swap bakc and forth. I am not full on opposed to it, but it seems a bit silly to do without some outrageous TO DO list in order to respec.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
DraconianOne
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Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 06:48:21 AM

As much as people seem to want it, my gut tells me its a stupid idea. Everything I've read suggests that once you get past level 10, two of your three "skill" trees are based on your AC along with everything about your character's equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The primary stat for classes is the same irrespective of AC - so a healing Commando will rely on Aim as much as a tanking Vanguard.  As it stands, if you're min-maxing then you're likely to have a secondary set of gear within a single AC anyway (e.g. Vanguard Tank weapon, Vanguard DPS weapon). Other than that, the difference in weapons seems to me to be cosmetic.

Other than that, the arguments for and against AC switching seem to depend on whether you think it's analagous to swapping classes (e.g. switching from a Warrior to a Paladin) or respeccing skill trees (e.g. Holy to Protection).

.


A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Modern Angel
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Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 06:48:26 AM

Every single Western MMO which matters, EVERY SINGLE ONE, that has tried to do the "you get your real class at Level XX seven hours after you start" has changed it, either in beta or after release. Every single one.

It'll change here, too.
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 06:49:43 AM

So in other words, I can solo as a merc then switch to tank-a-tech for grouped action? So what the fuck is the point of me choosing an AC spec at level 10 then? for the skill trees?  Unless they make it stupidily difficult to do, it seems to neuter the weight of the lvl 10 choice. In essence, we boil it back down to 4 classes that can swap bakc and forth. I am not full on opposed to it, but it seems a bit silly to do without some outrageous TO DO list in order to respec.

I agree you shouldnt be able to just switch whenever the wind blows, but there's no reason NOT to allow it.
Modern Angel
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Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 06:52:31 AM

Make it eight classes, you choose at the beginning. Done. Just like EQ2 and AoC ended up doing.

There's not even any story reason (THE BIG DRIVER OF THE GAME REMEMBER?) to do the choice, since the entire thing is just one guy telling you to pick.
Paelos
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Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 06:55:02 AM

If someone uses the word "meaningful" when describing the AC choses, or the phrase "my choices should MATTER" I'm going to laugh at you.

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01101010
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Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 06:56:22 AM

So in other words, I can solo as a merc then switch to tank-a-tech for grouped action? So what the fuck is the point of me choosing an AC spec at level 10 then? for the skill trees?  Unless they make it stupidily difficult to do, it seems to neuter the weight of the lvl 10 choice. In essence, we boil it back down to 4 classes that can swap bakc and forth. I am not full on opposed to it, but it seems a bit silly to do without some outrageous TO DO list in order to respec.

I agree you shouldnt be able to just switch whenever the wind blows, but there's no reason NOT to allow it.

Meh. I do feel it cheapens your lvl 10 choice selection though. If that choice has no teeth, then why make it out to be the end all, be all of your personal path choice? And if this is done, will that voice over interaction that states you will not be able to change it later have to be redone? Again, I like the idea of a BH going merc for the solo stuff or if the group needs a back up healer, then switching out to powertech to tank group stuff. AS LONG AS IT IS A BITCH TO DO AT LEAST, it would be an option.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Pezzle
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Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 06:59:42 AM

If you can AC switch at will why not just eliminate that aspect of the game and give each class 5 different trees?  Forget about the WoW spec stuff. 
Modern Angel
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Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 07:03:08 AM

 Forget about the WoW spec stuff. 

Half this game's design doc is "WoW did it this way." You're asking something that, right now, is quite literally impossible.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 07:04:19 AM

If someone uses the word "meaningful" when describing the AC choses, or the phrase "my choices should MATTER" I'm going to laugh at you.
Meh. I do feel it cheapens your lvl 10 choice selection though.
Close  awesome, for real
kaid
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Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 07:04:23 AM

Let's start this off with a bang!

https://twitter.com/#!/Rockjaw/status/141732030672154625

Quote
AC changing may happen post-launch.

So yeah, I'm actually not as opposed to this as I once was.  Maybe it's because after I realized just how much time one is going to potentially put into a given character, and then realizing that I'd be locked into that role FOREVARZ, and subsequently realizing that to roll up another toon, even of the same class but diff. AC would just be clownpants.

Thoughts?


Well given at the time frame you pick the AC you really don't have anything in game to tell you what either of the AC is like just some descriptions. So from in game information there really is not enough to go on especially for people just starting the game to really make a permanent decision of that magnitude. There should be a way to change it but it should either be a limited amount of times like 2-4 times max or be expensive. So you can fix your mistake but you will pay through the nose to do it.
01101010
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Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 07:08:47 AM

If someone uses the word "meaningful" when describing the AC choses, or the phrase "my choices should MATTER" I'm going to laugh at you.
Meh. I do feel it cheapens your lvl 10 choice selection though.
Close  awesome, for real

I should have added: given that the cutscene makes it out to be the end all be all of what your character is to become. Personally, I don't care that much, but the game sets the meaning.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Pezzle
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Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 07:09:38 AM

 Forget about the WoW spec stuff. 

Half this game's design doc is "WoW did it this way." You're asking something that, right now, is quite literally impossible.

If all people ever do is try to make the game more like WoW they have no right to complain about lack of innovation, derivative etc.  

This game is not WoW, stop trying to force WoW features and conveniences into it.  Allow the game to have SOME differences.
Paelos
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Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 07:11:07 AM

Allow the game to have SOME differences.

Agreed, as long as they are logical differences. Nobody likes a unique snowflake for no reason.

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Modern Angel
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Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 07:13:52 AM

If all people ever do is try to make the game more like WoW they have no right to complain about lack of innovation, derivative etc.  

This game is not WoW, stop trying to force WoW features and conveniences into it.  Allow the game to have SOME differences.

Uh, I'm criticizing Bioware for making it like WoW, not telling them to make it more like WoW.

They made crummy WoW talent trees and specs but added in the, as Paelos said, unique for no reason other than JUST BECAUSE AC switching nonsense. Fuck meaningful. If it's meaningful, it would have an actual story involved with your choice at 10. Not even Bioware thinks it's meaningful, because in their vaunted story game the choice is literally "talk to guy, go talk to other guy". It's a time sink for when you fuck up, full stop.
Pezzle
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Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 07:15:22 AM

So you honestly want to switch between a tank and a healer on the fly?  Is this about not being able to find a group in a different game?  What is the burning need to enable a total character switch?  Honest question as I have no urges like that.
Modern Angel
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Reply #25 on: December 01, 2011, 07:18:59 AM

No, I don't want to put in the six to ten hours (depending on how busy I am chasing a toddler) to get to level 10, make a choice which is unfun because I can't even see the fucking talent trees except in a brief preview, and then spend another ten hours figuring out it's unfun. I can't do that anymore.

If they're different classes, truly different classes, let me pick right out of the gate. Funcom realized the system SWTOR is using is retarded. SOE realized it was retarded. Hell, *all of you* realized it was retarded before Bioware shat magic fairy dust all over these forums and it suddenly became awesome and meaningful. I'm tell you, even Bioware doesn't think it's meaningful. It's just a shitty design decision created to keep you rerolling.
kaid
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Reply #26 on: December 01, 2011, 07:20:49 AM

So you honestly want to switch between a tank and a healer on the fly?  Is this about not being able to find a group in a different game?  What is the burning need to enable a total character switch?  Honest question as I have no urges like that.

You can have AC switching without making it on the fly. Have it something you have to go back to the main cities for and make it expensive. Its something you want to discourage but given how little information you have at level 10 when you make the choice I can easily see somebody playing one ac then having a friend doing the other one and realizing he made a bad choice at level 10 with nothing but a text codex entry to choose by.

Now if they had a quest line where you got to try out some of the powers or were demonstrated what the powers of that AC are then I would have less issues with permanent choice.
Pezzle
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Reply #27 on: December 01, 2011, 07:22:12 AM

So if they were to build something in where by a certain level you could go back and choose again that would work?
Paelos
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Reply #28 on: December 01, 2011, 07:24:22 AM

So if they were to build something in where by a certain level you could go back and choose again that would work?

I would be comfortable with an AC switching system where you had to store your character in a training facility for half an hour to switch ACs. You don't need to do it on the fly. You just need to be able to do it when you know that you're heading into a situation that evening.

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #29 on: December 01, 2011, 07:27:16 AM

Having two "independent" ACs share the same story in a story-based MMO is daft. Why should a player have to repeat everything because of a simple design decision?
cironian
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Reply #30 on: December 01, 2011, 07:30:49 AM

How about you can switch at any time at a trainer, but you get reset to the beginning of level 10 whenever you do?

Because I totally get the problem of picking an AC at level 10, then finding out that you really dislike how it plays. But switching at max level doesn't feel right, just like you can't switch from a warrior to a priest in WoW.
Modern Angel
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Reply #31 on: December 01, 2011, 07:32:59 AM

IF THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLASSES LET ME CHOOSE AT LEVEL ONE.

This should not be hard to figure out.
Tyrnan
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Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 07:35:09 AM

If they make it too easy to switch I can see the JC/SI/BH/Trooper becoming even more popular due to the fact that they'll then be able to fulfill all roles in a group. They already seemed very popular from what I saw at the weekend, especially SI/BH.
Paelos
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Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 07:36:44 AM

They aren't different classes. That's why I guess I don't understand the flip side of the argument.

A paladin dps, tanks, and heals. A druid dps, tanks, and heals. A priest dps and heals. A warrior dps and tanks.

To me switching classes means radically different abilities, different armor styles, different mechanics.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Modern Angel
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Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 07:37:02 AM

I know everyone hated the Soul system in Rift and being able to choose what you wanted to do, when you wanted to do it. I also predict being able to fill all roles in GW2 will be a total disaster.
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