The AC-Changing/Dual-Spec/"I'd rather play Rift" Thread

[Simond]

But see, you can change your spec in WoW. THAT'S the point being made. They're not taking out respeccing or dual spec in Pandaria. They know a paladin is still going to be able to switch a spec and bam, now they have all their heal spells and shit again. And it's just not a big fucking deal.

So if it works in WoW, why wouldn't it work in SWTOR?

[Sjofn]

That's ... my point?

[kildorn]

I was a little confused and had to scroll back to see when Sjofn turned into a hardcore LIVE WITH YOUR SPEC CHOICES type.

Dual spec just makes life a little more simplistic. You have three friends online, and you can probably all switch specs around a bit to make a good group. Or just alternate who tanks/heals for laughs.

[Shatter]

I dont agree with AC switching because the advanced classes are separate unique classes.  Its not like a druid who can go feral to resto, its more like a rogue switching to a cleric.  It makes about as much sense for a Sorc to change to an Assasin to me as a Sorc changing to a BH.  As for the whole level 1 vs 10 on when to choose your class, who fing cares.

Add: They should add multi class specs however so you can change talent trees like Rift does once your AC is chosen.

[Ingmar]

I dont agree with AC switching because the advanced classes are separate unique classes.  Its not like a druid who can go feral to resto, its more like a rogue switching to a cleric.  It makes about as much sense for a Sorc to change to an Assasin to me as a Sorc changing to a BH.  As for the whole level 1 vs 10 on when to choose your class, who fing cares.

Its pretty much exactly like what switching a druid from feral to balance will be post-MoP.

[Trippy]

I know everyone hated the Soul system in Rift and being able to choose what you wanted to do, when you wanted to do it. I also predict being able to fill all roles in GW2 will be a total disaster.

They did?

[Shatter]

I know everyone hated the Soul system in Rift and being able to choose what you wanted to do, when you wanted to do it. I also predict being able to fill all roles in GW2 will be a total disaster.

They did?

I smell sarcasm, not sure if serious

[Ingmar]

MA's posts are much easier to understand if you just assume really passive-aggressive sarcasm is the default. 

[Paelos]

I dont agree with AC switching because the advanced classes are separate unique classes.  Its not like a druid who can go feral to resto, its more like a rogue switching to a cleric.  It makes about as much sense for a Sorc to change to an Assasin to me as a Sorc changing to a BH.  As for the whole level 1 vs 10 on when to choose your class, who fing cares.

Add: They should add multi class specs however so you can change talent trees like Rift does once your AC is chosen.

Does the Sorc and the Assassin have different storylines? If so, then I agree that they are different classes. If they are the same, then I think they are specs. I see that as the defining line of the argument.

[Ingmar]

Yeah same for me.

[kildorn]

The gear changes for a few ACs would be odd, but not terrible. I don't see how it loses anything for the game to add it as an option personally.

[Shatter]

Would most people here be cool with more interchangable skill trees like Rift? 

[Nevermore]

MA's posts are much easier to understand if you just assume really passive-aggressive sarcasm is the default. 

You mean that's not always the case for everyone? 

[Sjofn]

Would most people here be cool with more interchangable skill trees like Rift? 

If those interchangeable skill trees make it so I don't have to knife people in the back while I am holding a gun because I happened to pick the healy IA AC, sure. But then I am back to wondering why that's alright, but switching the AC is not.

[Amaron]

Who is actually in favor of what here though?   We're talking about two different ends of a scale here.

1)  Having the ability to very rarely switch AC because the you chose wrong/grass is greener.
2)  Full on swap with a button click AC switching.

I can be ok with 1.   Button click AC switching is going to lead to Devs being lazy about keeping all the talent trees viable.   WoW Hunters all around.

[Sjofn]

I want at least 1, I have no issues at all with 2.

[Paelos]

I see merits of both. The important thing is that you should be able to switch. Now if they start tying it to some RMT shit, that's when it hits the fan.

Why can't we have like craftable respec tokens? That would be fine too.

[Nevermore]

I don't see any problem at all with 2.  Keep in mind that just because people would have the ability to have builds from either AC doesn't mean there'll be Guild Wars level of saving 10 different builds for use at any time.  I figure dual specs, or even tri specs, with both ACs being available is perfectly fine.

[Sand]

 As for the whole level 1 vs 10 on when to choose your class, who fing cares.

I think the legitimate concern there is that playing levels 1-10 (Consular for example) is nothing like playing either the AC's of Sage or Shadow. So you have wasted ten levels and the time to get them to figure out you dont like the Sage. Where as if you started as a Sage right at level one you might have figured that out sooner and wasted less time.

[Sand]

Who is actually in favor of what here though?   We're talking about two different ends of a scale here.

1)  Having the ability to very rarely switch AC because the you chose wrong/grass is greener.
2)  Full on swap with a button click AC switching.

I can be ok with 1.   Button click AC switching is going to lead to Devs being lazy about keeping all the talent trees viable.   WoW Hunters all around.

I dont like either one but would be okay with #1.

The only respec'ing Im actually okay with is being able to adjust your points with in your AC's skill trees. And even that shouldnt be easy or at the push of a button.


And to me AC's are completely different classes, stories dont matter, the mechanics are completely different. Even the skill trees can be pretty dissimilar. Look at the Sage for example- One skill tree is a healer/cleric, the other is a ranged dps/wizard.  Switching to a completely different AC (Shadow in this case) just because you shared the same first ten levels, doesnt matter.

[Sjofn]

It is no fucking different than a fucking WoW druid switching from feral to balance, or feral to restoration, except the name changes. The bear druid is not anything REMOTELY like the resto druid. But they're still the same class, people have been able to switch between those specs since the goddamn game came out, and were able to EASILY swap between the two at the push of a fucking button for years. The world did not end. You have to collect gear for both specs, but that's fine, and the price people are willing to pay. The dual ACs simply are NOT that different on the classes I played, one of those being the consular/inquisitor, one of the classes with ACs that people keep insisting turn into wildly different classes omg for real you guys. You know what it actually felt like? Like one side was me speccing to be a holy paladin, and the other was me speccing to be a protection paladin.

And the story ABSOLUTELY matters, because that's the main fucking reason to play this MMO. So no, I should not have to fucking play the same goddamn story over again because around level 25, when the class FINALLY FULLY FLESHES OUT, it turns out I fucking hate the sage, or the shadow, or whatever. The decorative thing in this game is your class functionality, not the story.

[Pezzle]

Except both Paladins can heal?  It is not the same.  I think you might be closer on the Guardian vs Sentinel comparison but in SWTOR they made a mistake with design. 

Now, maybe that is a fundamental problem with Diku design?  The topic is worth discussion.  In SWTOR if you can heal at all you can heal well enough for a group.  My regular partner is a Sentinel.  We do not NEED a guardian or other tank.  As a healer type with all of 8 points in heal tree (for the channeling) I can heal a group just fine.  Maybe someone more dedicated would use less resources but in the end we win.  Swapping between healing and non healing is rather huge.   

So, to allow AC changes is substantially different than a simple respec in WoW.

[Sjofn]

They can't both really heal. Yes, they both have (most of) the heal spells, but a protection paladin is not going to be healing an instance. Ever. And, as has been pointed out already, once Pandaria comes out, a lot of those heals are going to be stripped out and folded into when you pick your talent tree. And you WILL be able to switch between them all, and the world will not end, because there's no good reason to lock someone into something like that forever.

[Sand]

It is no fucking different than a fucking WoW druid switching from feral to balance, or feral to restoration, except the name changes. T

RAWR!  


Sorry my opinion made you so angry. But I tend to agree with Pezzle.

[Sjofn]

Yes, you both seem to be trapped in 2002 or something.

[kildorn]

I really don't see why AC changing would have any real impact on the game at all.

A feral druid or prot paladin isn't going to just stand back and heal. Last I checked, they had roughly a tenth of the mana pool, which means "cast twice and you're out", and have melee abilities to restore their mana so they have a recharging resource when doing what they're supposed to do.

Sort of like the actual difference between a Sorc and a Shadow. Sorcs and Shadows share a LOT of the same abilities, but they use them entirely differently because one has 100 force, and the other has 500 force. The melee one just has ways to turn meleeing into more force, while the caster does not.

If you even just gave a shadow one of the sorc heals, they wouldn't be a healer. They'd have an ability that ate 60 force (60% of their mana!) to heal someone for ~10% of their health. That's not a freaking healer.

But this all seems to be completely missing the point that changing specs is something you do IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING NEW. So going from Tank to Healer is .. the entire fucking POINT of dual spec.

[Nevermore]

Except both Paladins can heal?  It is not the same.

Saying a Ret Paladin can heal is like saying someone with CPR training is a doctor.  You cannot heal a group with a Ret Paladin.  The heals they have are vestigial and are really mostly effective for out of combat recovery, which incidentally every single Star Wars AC also has.  And yet, Paladins can support a DPS tree, Healing tree and Tanking tree all on the same class and WoW hasn't broken!

I swear, if you no-choices people were designing a game it would probably end up about as fun as Vanguard.  

[Sand]

And yet, Paladins can support a DPS tree, Healing tree and Tanking tree all on the same class and WoW hasn't broken!

I swear, if you no-choices people were designing a game it would probably end up about as fun as Vanguard.  

Yes but those are all SKILL TREES on a single class. (ie changing that is simply respecc'ing)
What is being proposed is allowing people to change from one AC CLASS to another AC CLASS, each of which have their own distinct talent trees. Thats like going from Paladin to Hunter.
Not the same.

[Ingmar]

 

The difference is completely arbitrary. Also, shared story > anything else imo.

EDIT: And, actually, they share quite a lot more than a paladin and a hunter, like an entire talent tree, and all the same basic attacks.

[Azuredream]

Does the Sorc and the Assassin have different storylines? If so, then I agree that they are different classes. If they are the same, then I think they are specs. I see that as the defining line of the argument.

Technically, you can play the Sage and then swap factions to play the Assassin and by your definition, since they have different storylines they are different classes. If I were to make an argument against switching ACs it would be that it would make me less compelled to make anything more than four characters, thus cutting the amount of content available. I wouldn't mind if they threw it in though.

[Nevermore]

Except both Paladins can heal?  It is not the same.

Saying a Ret Paladin can heal is like saying someone with CPR training is a doctor.  You cannot heal a group with a Ret Paladin.  The heals they have are vestigial and are really mostly effective for out of combat recovery, which incidentally every single Star Wars AC also has.  And yet, Paladins can support a DPS tree, Healing tree and Tanking tree all on the same class and WoW hasn't broken!

I swear, if you no-choices people were designing a game it would probably end up about as fun as Vanguard.  

Yes but those are all SKILL TREES on a single class.
What is being proposed is allowing people to change from one AC CLASS to another AC CLASS. Thats like going from Paladin to Hunter.
Not the same.

No, that's not like going from a Paladin to a Hunter because Paladins and Hunters don't share a skill tree.  Shadows and Sages do.  That makes Star Wars ACs much more like Feral/Resto than Mage/Warrior.

[Sand]

No, that's not like going from a Paladin to a Hunter because Paladins and Hunters don't share a skill tree.  Shadows and Sages do.  That makes Star Wars ACs much more like Feral/Resto than Mage/Warrior.

Yes they share one of three talent trees. So? Still not the same as a simple respecc.

Hey if you want to get out of having to sit through the same story again and invest the time, just say that. But I think trying to compare this to a WoW respecc is reaching.

[eldaec]

I'm not fussed about AC switching. I would have designed it in from the start, but since the opposing faction classes are all just lazy copy/pastes it at least gives you a reason to play both factions.

Otoh multispeccing within an AC is pretty basic stuff and I expect that in any post 2006 mmog.

Along with sidekicking, appearance tab, UI modification and the other 700 basic mmog mechanics that this game is missing...

[Sjofn]

No, that's not like going from a Paladin to a Hunter because Paladins and Hunters don't share a skill tree.  Shadows and Sages do.  That makes Star Wars ACs much more like Feral/Resto than Mage/Warrior.

Yes they share one of three talent trees. So? Still not the same as a simple respecc.

Hey if you want to get out of having to sit through the same story again and invest the time, just say that. But I think trying to compare this to a WoW respecc is reaching.

It IS the same. Your reasoning for why they are not is not convincing.

The ACs share the same resource model, they have an overlapping skill tree, and they get the same baseline abilities. That is MUCH closer to talent specs than a seperate class. Fuck, their main stat is the same no matter what. That's actually EVEN CLOSER than, say, a protection paladin and a holy paladin.

I'm not fussed about AC switching. I would have designed it in from the start, but since the opposing faction classes are all just lazy copy/pastes it at least gives you a reason to play both factions.

The story already gives you a reason, and my tank-specced assassin does fuck all to help my friends Republic side who need a tank. And my sage will not be helping my Empire friends. That's missing the point entirely.


Incidently, I am glad they're "lazy copy-pastes." After DAoC, I don't have much patience for "similar but different."

[Fordel]

Doublefrost Math, Best Math!