The AC-Changing/Dual-Spec/"I'd rather play Rift" Thread

[kaid]

IF THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLASSES LET ME CHOOSE AT LEVEL ONE.

This should not be hard to figure out.

I would agree with this. If you really want them to be totally independent let me chose at level one and let me play with the powers OF that ac at level 1. That way by level 10 I probably already know if I am digging it or want to scrap it and switch before I have to much time invested. The current system even once you pick the AC its probably at least another 5 or 10 levels until you get enough of that AC's abilities to really have any clue if thats what you really enjoy or if the other AC would have been better.

So in my opinion if you want it to be a permanent choice then it should be that way from level 1 and bang each side now has 8 classes. If they stay with this pick it at level 10 with no useful information to go by method then there NEEDS to be a way to correct that choice if a mistake is made.

[Pezzle]

I agree that story sharing is daft, each AC should have a different story.  I also agree the information provided to players at level 10 is terrible and needs to be changed.  

I do not agree that we should have mechanics (be it timers or cost etc) to change AC's a virtually unlimited number of times.  Have a group of three and need a tank?  Have you considered using a companion?  This game is not that hard and scratching out that last % of efficiency is largely not needed.  Raids may be a different story, but that is a raid.

[DraconianOne]

Because I totally get the problem of picking an AC at level 10, then finding out that you really dislike how it plays. But switching at max level doesn't feel right, just like you can't switch from a warrior to a priest in WoW.

But you can switch between Tanking, DPS and Healer if you're either a Pally or a Druid.

[Draegan]

IF THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLASSES LET ME CHOOSE AT LEVEL ONE.

This should not be hard to figure out.

It just boils down to this.  But it probably helped them only have to develop 8 newbie stories rather than 16.

[Pezzle]

Because I totally get the problem of picking an AC at level 10, then finding out that you really dislike how it plays. But switching at max level doesn't feel right, just like you can't switch from a warrior to a priest in WoW.

But you can switch between Tanking, DPS and Healer if you're either a Pally or a Druid.

Not a fair comparison.  All Paladins and Druids can heal.

Not all Troopers and Jedi can.  

[Modern Angel]

Hell, the stories don't bug me. Let the pairs have the same stories. Just don't make me sink hours into something that I may hate. Give me important powers early and often. If there's one difference that's awesome in post-AoC/WAR debacle MMOs, it's that you get a feel for your class early in these games. WoW, Rift, current patched up EQ2....

[luckton]

The problem I have with people saying that Pallys, Shamans and Druids can heal regardless of spec is that the paradigm is changing.  Come Pandaria, the actual 'useful' healing spells that all Pallys, Shamans and Druids normally get is being changed to 'heal-spec only'.  Essentially, WoW is taking on the AC thing itself, in that at level 10, you pick your talent spec, and you're now given the use of spells and abilities based on that spec, locking out the use of any other skills that are made unique.

Obviously that could change between now and release, but right now, the argument is slowly becoming moot.

[Draegan]

I agree that story sharing is daft, each AC should have a different story.  I also agree the information provided to players at level 10 is terrible and needs to be changed.  

I do not agree that we should have mechanics (be it timers or cost etc) to change AC's a virtually unlimited number of times.  Have a group of three and need a tank?  Have you considered using a companion?  This game is not that hard and scratching out that last % of efficiency is largely not needed.  Raids may be a different story, but that is a raid.

You can actually now preview your tree and get an idea of what you're looking at.  Previously all you had was some loretext from the NPC.

I like dual-tri-quad spec ideas.  I really want to be able to save specs for Solo and PVE and do the tank/dps or heal/dps combo for each.  Then I want to be able to have a PVP spec etc.  Normal arguments all around, and I'm not sure why I can't keep buying slots to "save" specs in.  Limiting that is stupid especially when the only limiting factor is me running back to town and talking to an NPC.  It's just a user friendly thing.

We can all agree on that.

The AC changing thing doesn't feel right.  To me, it's like asking for the ability to change from a Rogue to a Mage.  But because there is a common, shared experience from levels 1-10, it's perceived that you should be able to make that choice any time.  

The psychology is kind of funny.  Currently, no one is asking to be able to change their class, or really expects to be able to do, at max level.  No one in WOW really expect to be able to switch from a Rogue to a Priest at level 70 in WOW (contrast that from changing between a Jedi Shadow and a Jedi Sage at level 40 in TOR).  It's accepted that at level 0 we chose Rogue or Priest and that is a permanent choice.

Now, conversely, in TOR we select Consular at level 0 and at level 10 we are asked to make a similar choice.  Yet because there is a shared experience of the "Consular" from levels 1-10 then people think that they should not have to make a permanent choice again.  Why not?

You are given even less information at the character creation screen about the Jedi Consular then when you have to decide  between a Shadow or a Sage.  

So why do people want AC changing?

Also, let it be known that I'm not advocating for not having AC change, because I'd love it.  Give me access to even more options is always a great thing, hell I'd love to be able to reactivate my old WOW account and change my DK to a Mage too.

Edit: Consular =/= Councilor

[DraconianOne]

The psychology is kind of funny.  Currently, no one is asking to be able to change their class, or really expects to be able to do, at max level.  No one in WOW really expect to be able to switch from a Rogue to a Priest at level 70 in WOW (contrast that from changing between a Jedi Shadow and a Jedi Sage at level 40 in TOR).  It's accepted that at level 0 we chose Rogue or Priest and that is a permanent choice.

I find the psychology in what you said funny.  Rogue and Priest aren't just different in their functions, but they're different in their mechanics, resource management (combo points vs mana), class quests, trainers and share no abilities, talent trees or stat requirements. The same can't be said for Commando and Vanguard. So trying to distinguish two ACs that share a skill tree, a story, abilities, trainers, primary stats etc is seems to me to be nothing like a rogue and priest.

It's not like people are asking to go from Commando to Scoundrel is it? Yet by the argument people are using against AC switching (being able to tank or heal at choice? Oh noes!), they should be in favour of the switch from Commando (Heal or DPS) to Scoundrel (Heal or DPS) because there's no tanking involved. And yet I suspect that everybody would agree that was patently ridiculous.

[Jherad]

For AC changing, i'd like to see this implemented as a 'you know, I think I made a mistake, I'd actually like to be a XYZ' mechanic with some hoops to jump through (nothing too major. but more than a button press).

On the other hand, I would *really* like to see hotswappable skill tree builds within an AC - eg. for a Sith Juggernaut, the ability to press a button out of combat, and change from my set DPS vengeance-heavy point assignment to a raid tanking immortal-heavy one. That would enable me to have fun whether soloing or grouping/raiding without completely breaking immersion/equipment/hotbars.

[Modern Angel]

(nothing too major. but more than a button press).

See, I can't get on board with this, either. It's bugging MORE as I think about it, but I'm really pretty annoyed that this huge major choice doesn't rate anything other than a two click (giver, target) fedex quest. So no, if it's not important enough to rate something as involved as a class quest stop then the devs don't get to then say MAJOR DEAL DUDES SINK 75K AND AN EPIC QUEST CHAIN.

[Amaron]

Have they ever said they're against dual spec? If so, why? I find it super curious why they don't have it in the game in the first place.

I worded that badly.   They will definitely add dual spec.  There's no way in hell they'll make AC switching simple though.   I'm guessing it's going to be expensive and require doing a quest chain or some such.

I find the psychology in what you said funny.  Rogue and Priest aren't just different in their functions, but they're different in their mechanics, resource management (combo points vs mana), class quests, trainers and share no abilities, talent trees or stat requirements. The same can't be said for Commando and Vanguard.

He's talking about Consular.   Shadow vs Sage basically meets the requirements you listed.

[Draegan]

I just realized I was typing in Councilor and not Consular!   

[01101010]

How about chosing your AC @ ten, fucking around with it till 20 and having to "confirm" whether you want to continue on in said AC or take on the other? Considering 10-20 are, from what I am told, more developmental levels anyway.

[Modern Angel]

How about I pick at level one if it's a class, which people are insisting?

And if it's not a class, let me switch easily, just like a spec.

Those are the only two sane options. Anything else is dinosaur design kicking you in the nuts and if anyone in the world other than Bioware was doing it, it would be derided to high heaven.

[SnakeCharmer]

How about chosing your AC @ ten, fucking around with it till 20 and having to "confirm" whether you want to continue on in said AC or take on the other? Considering 10-20 are, from what I am told, more developmental levels anyway.

Ideally, you'd have a chance to play around with both before making the selection.  Start giving skills for Sentinel and Guardian at around level 6, carry that to about 15 or 20, then decide.  Once you pick, you lose access to the skills for the AC you didn't choose.  There needs to be some sort of test drive, and classes need to be developed earlier - particularly Jedi Knight / Sith Warrior.

[Amaron]

How about I pick at level one if it's a class, which people are insisting?

I don't see any reason you shouldn't have the option to pick at level 1.   I'd rather pick at level 10 myself.   It's not like they are limiting class abilities the way EQ2 did.   I don't see how you'd gain anything by picking at level 1.

[Reg]

How about I pick at level one if it's a class, which people are insisting?

And if it's not a class, let me switch easily, just like a spec.

Those are the only two sane options. Anything else is dinosaur design kicking you in the nuts and if anyone in the world other than Bioware was doing it, it would be derided to high heaven.

There's nothing stopping you from deciding on your advanced class right at the beginning  if you want.  How does forcing you to make that choice at level one make the game better?

And actually, if anyone but Bioware were making this game there wouldn't be half as many doomsayers.  Predicting the downfall of a popular, successful development house is way more fun.

[Numtini]

I know everyone hated the Soul system in Rift and being able to choose what you wanted to do, when you wanted to do it. I also predict being able to fill all roles in GW2 will be a total disaster.

This. Every time someone's added more ability to change your spec/class/whatever it's been popular. I don't know of anyone who afterwards has wanted to change it back.

If people are really up in arms about the concept, make it a quest thing like betrayal in EQ2. Which oddly you can still do to change your advanced class even though they got rid of the concept.

[murdoc]

But, but, but... if you allow AC switching the amount of content drops from 1600 hours to only 800! 

[Hutch]

My initial reaction on this topic was the sort of indignant "what kind of backwards mmo doesn't allow spec-switching" that I'm seeing reiterated here.

Then I rationalized (to myself) that ACs in this game are what we call classes in games like WoW and LotRO and etc. Everything fell together into harmony after that.

The dual-spec thing is another matter. They really should include that feature, regardless of AC switching.

Regarding the choice being made at level 10 vs level 1. I already know which AC I'm planning to play first (the tank/dps branch of Jedi Knight). I agree that the mechanic of having a "class" first and then picking an "advanced class" at level 10 is dumb, but how many of us are actually going to wait until level 10 to decide?

With the wealth of information available, some of it even provided at the official site, anyone familiar with classical diku party roles should be able to tell which roles each AC is able to perform. And if your role in a party is important to you, you can factor that into your decision of which AC to play.

And if you're not familiar with classical diku party roles, well, Hi. Welcome to F13. Take a look around the MMO forums. We have a rich history of tolerance for honest expressions of ignorance.

[Nevermore]

As much as people seem to want it, my gut tells me its a stupid idea. Everything I've read suggests that once you get past level 10, two of your three "skill" trees are based on your AC along with everything about your character's equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming I'm not, that means switching AC would essentially change 2/3s of your skills and require an almost entirely new equipment set. So essentially, you are leveling two characters simultaneously. While I see the attraction - what if I only really play one guy and I want to go from Tanking to DPS - but it just seems to defeat the purpose of building the character.

So just like Druids in WoW, and that game seems to be doing ok. 

Plus, you can go from Tanking to DPS within an AC anyway so how is that an issue?

[Sky]

I'm biased against slightly, and would be happier with something more like a high cost/low revolve switch (like you could do it once a week or something). For the Jedi Guardian, I already have to keep two sets of gear for dps and tanking. With AC switching, I'd then have to keep all that heavy armor PLUS medium armor.

Then you get into loot rolling. With a Guardian, I can just greed all medium armor, who cares. Now do I need it even though I'm playing a Guardian, because I might want to be a Sent at some point? I wouldn't be too happy if a Sentinel hoovered up that heavy armor I needed from a boss drop.

But really, dual spec is the thing that NEEDS to go in. There's no reason for it to be missing. It's the single most disappointing thing about TOR, imo. I don't like both things being rolled into the same topic, they are radically different topics.

[Nevermore]

I'm biased against slightly, and would be happier with something more like a high cost/low revolve switch (like you could do it once a week or something). For the Jedi Guardian, I already have to keep two sets of gear for dps and tanking. With AC switching, I'd then have to keep all that heavy armor PLUS medium armor.

Then you get into loot rolling. With a Guardian, I can just greed all medium armor, who cares. Now do I need it even though I'm playing a Guardian, because I might want to be a Sent at some point? I wouldn't be too happy if a Sentinel hoovered up that heavy armor I needed from a boss drop.

I have five sets of gear on my Druid.  FIVE.  Three sets are leather and two are cloth.  Rolling on loot isn't as hard as you think it is.  Is the gear an upgrade for the spec you're currently playing? Need.  If not, greed.

[luckton]

I have five sets of gear on my Druid.  FIVE.  Three sets are leather and two are cloth.  Rolling on loot isn't as hard as you think it is.  Is the gear an upgrade for the spec you're currently playing? Need.  If not, greed.

I'll venture to say that you are not this game's target audience. 

[Threash]

I am also against the switching.  This is not like a balance or shadow spec.  In SWTOR you will go from healer to not healer, tank to not tank etc within your own class based on the AC. 

That's exactly like balance or shadow.

[Numtini]

I'd be perfectly happy with a /50 command or full class switching. I'm tired of being forced to grind through stuff again if I want something different and I just don't see any downside other than the aforementioned "we can't keep them subbed as long."

[Paelos]

I'd be perfectly happy with a /50 command or full class switching. I'm tired of being forced to grind through stuff again if I want something different and I just don't see any downside other than the aforementioned "we can't keep them subbed as long."

That's because there isn't other than using my favorite words "matter" and "meaningful" in your reasoning.

[Ingmar]

Because I totally get the problem of picking an AC at level 10, then finding out that you really dislike how it plays. But switching at max level doesn't feel right, just like you can't switch from a warrior to a priest in WoW.

But you can switch between Tanking, DPS and Healer if you're either a Pally or a Druid.

Not a fair comparison.  All Paladins and Druids can heal.

Not all Troopers and Jedi can.  

I'm guessing you've never tried to heal a group with a ret paladin anytime recently.

[Ingmar]

I have five sets of gear on my Druid.  FIVE.  Three sets are leather and two are cloth.  Rolling on loot isn't as hard as you think it is.  Is the gear an upgrade for the spec you're currently playing? Need.  If not, greed.

I'll venture to say that you are not this game's target audience. 

Sure she is. I have about three and a half sets of gear on my warrior myself, and I practically define the target audience.

[DraconianOne]

Then you get into loot rolling. With a Guardian, I can just greed all medium armor, who cares. Now do I need it even though I'm playing a Guardian, because I might want to be a Sent at some point? I wouldn't be too happy if a Sentinel hoovered up that heavy armor I needed from a boss drop.

I don't know what the current situation is but I know that they were talking about having loot bags dropping in raids operations containing appropriate gear for your class or something. So presumably it will be appropriate for whatever AC you're currently in and not drop Heavy Armour for a Sentinel just because you're a JK archetype.

What is the current situation with that loot droppage model btw?

[Thrawn]

I have five sets of gear on my Druid.  FIVE.  Three sets are leather and two are cloth.  Rolling on loot isn't as hard as you think it is.  Is the gear an upgrade for the spec you're currently playing? Need.  If not, greed.

You're going to love it when you lose "need" loot to someone rolling "need" for a companion they don't even have out. 

Dual spec seems like an obvious thing to put in so people setup for raid healing and such can actually do stuff other than raid healing when they want to solo.

[Fordel]

Assuming I'm not, that means switching AC would essentially change 2/3s of your skills and require an almost entirely new equipment set. So essentially, you are leveling two characters simultaneously. While I see the attraction - what if I only really play one guy and I want to go from Tanking to DPS - but it just seems to defeat the purpose of building the character.

It's no where near that big of a difference, he says 50 posts later.

[Sjofn]

So you honestly want to switch between a tank and a healer on the fly?  Is this about not being able to find a group in a different game?  What is the burning need to enable a total character switch?  Honest question as I have no urges like that.

For me, it's because the stories are not going to have much replayability, and it is fucking retarded that I have to guess at level 10 which AC I'm going to like better. I was going to be the healer/dps spec for my IA and smuggler, but as it turns out, I hate how that AC dpses, and I still can't tell (I hit 18 on my IA) if I will actually LIKE the healing for that class. I don't want to sink a fuckton of time and effort into something that's going to turn out to be "lol, wrong choice," with the added dickpunch of having to repeat a story I've spoiled for myself. And I replay my Bioware games a lot, I can't imagine people less insane than me would be more tolerant of it.

Let's treat ACs as different classes, since that's what the anti-switch people keep insisting it's mimicking rather than a simple spec swap (which I disagree with, by the way). It's different in, say, WoW, because if I decide "man, I don't like this class," and pick a new one, I can do different shit to level that class up than I did with the original class (until 80-85, anyway ><), so at least I'm seeing something slightly new. That wouldn't be the case in SWTOR.

[Sjofn]

The problem I have with people saying that Pallys, Shamans and Druids can heal regardless of spec is that the paradigm is changing.  Come Pandaria, the actual 'useful' healing spells that all Pallys, Shamans and Druids normally get is being changed to 'heal-spec only'.  Essentially, WoW is taking on the AC thing itself, in that at level 10, you pick your talent spec, and you're now given the use of spells and abilities based on that spec, locking out the use of any other skills that are made unique.

Obviously that could change between now and release, but right now, the argument is slowly becoming moot.

But see, you can change your spec in WoW. THAT'S the point being made. They're not taking out respeccing or dual spec in Pandaria. They know a paladin is still going to be able to switch a spec and bam, now they have all their heal spells and shit again. And it's just not a big fucking deal.



EDIT SO I DON'T MAKE A THIRD POST IN A ROW: By the by, I played a sage to 20-something and an inqusitor assassin to 18 ( ). Being able to swap between those ACs is just ... not a big fucking deal. I see it as no different from making my druid go from feral (bear, if you please) to resto. I use HUGELY different abilities between those two specs, but no one is going to claim my druid isn't still a damn druid.