Mass Effect 3

[Special J]

I don't think I used any DLC weapon for more than lulz.  I picked up the machinegun and never looked back.

[Simond]

It's ME3.  It'll probably be brilliant and we knew that much before it was even officially announced.
E: Less fanboyishly, if you didn't like the first two very much, announcing a radical departure from those two games would be a good thing.

Ignoring the ridiculous leaked plot spoilers (that Joker storyline? Really?) it seems that BiowarEA has actually made some radical departures. For example, the RPG side is now basically Babby's First Cover-Based Shooter with minimal actual RPG mechanics, and there is an alternative mode: Story mode. This means your combat is one fraction away from being unloseable just so people can get to the *gigglesquee* parts quicker.

[Sjofn]

I don't really see the issue with storymode, frankly. You don't have to use it, so who gives a shit?

[Stormwaltz]

"Story mode" was discussed at least as far back as ME2. As the game required increasing FPS skills to complete, the employees who liked playing RPGs and not shooters got increasingly vocal about how they (and by extension BioWare's core audience of non-twitch gamers) were being marginalized. Many, many complaints along the lines of, "I want to play our game, but I can't."

One of the editors - an enthusiastic gamer but a complete novice with shooters - was used to test ME2's difficulty for casual players. When she died multiple times in the tutorial (a feat the designers had convinced themselves was impossible), she attracted a crowd of very unhappy looking senior designers behind her, jotting down notes on all the things that tripped her up.

[Tebonas]

From all those changes one reads about in ME3, story mode is the only good one. I don't see what anybodies problem could be with it since its entirely optional. Its like being annoyed that a game has different difficulty levels.

[Mosesandstick]

One of the editors - an enthusiastic gamer but a complete novice with shooters - was used to test ME2's difficulty for casual players. When she died multiple times in the tutorial (a feat the designers had convinced themselves was impossible), she attracted a crowd of very unhappy looking senior designers behind her, jotting down notes on all the things that tripped her up.

How did they respond? Did they change anything?

[Stormwaltz]

How did they respond? Did they change anything?

I don't remember what specifically changed, but yes - it underwent another round of redesign. I think the design assumptions of the "Easy" difficulty were also reviewed.

[Lantyssa]

You should write a book of anecdotes.  It'd sell to about three people, but we'd enjoy it immensely.

[Simond]

I don't really see the issue with storymode, frankly. You don't have to use it, so who gives a shit?

Because when I want to play a game, I want to play a game. As opposed to, you know, trudging through a linear corridor of plot while the game plays itself between the cutscenes and dialog trees. If Bioware are so certain that their story is that good that the gameplay itself doesn't actually matter, why haven't they turned it into a TV series or a film or a novel or a comic book or whatever?

Hell, it's Squaresoft all over again. Does anyone really want FFXIII IN SPACE?

[Reg]

You didn't answer Sjofn's question.  Storymode is optional.  You don't have to use it. So why do you care?

Or is it just your usual "I hate everything with Bioware's name on it" routine?

[koro]

I can't speak for Simond, but I was someone who really enjoyed ME1, warts and all. It could've done with some reduction in the absurd amount of loot and better area design, but it was pretty great. ME2 I enjoyed far more than I expected to, but that was entirely luck of the draw for the class I happened to pick (Vanguard) and less on the strength of the gameplay itself, as every other class I've played the game with couldn't get more than halfway through the story before I got sick of how clunky everything felt. The story I've enjoyed regardless, but in ME2 it became one of those "in spite of..." kinda deals. All I know is that if I'd paid $60 for ME2 instead of the $20 I paid four months later, I would have been incensed.

I was hoping ME3 was going to mark a return to some of the RPG mechanics from ME1 combined with the tighter area design and flow of gameplay from ME2, but instead it seems like they've been pared down even further and the bone thrown to the crowd who liked those RPG mechanics is Story Mode which, to me, feels patronizing and almost insulting in a way. No, I don't have to play Story Mode, but the other modes don't give me what I bought into Mass Effect for in the first place!

[Margalis]

The problem with Story Mode is that it looks like trying to be all things to all people, which typically does not end well. I would also argue that if you have a mode where certain parts of the game are minimized or removed entirely it isn't clear what game you are trying to make and can show a lack of confidence in the overall design. (Which it sounds like is actually the case here)

At some point you have to say "Mass Effect is now a game for people who like shooting, and if you don't you should probably buy something else." Sure, you don't have to play it, but people at Bioware have to invest time into it, time that could be spent making the "real" game instead.

In theory having a mode where the action parts are minimized is not a terrible idea, but it does point to underlying issues and has a good potential to go wrong. And I don't think people who like ME's story but want the combat to be more RPG rather than twitch based are going to get that in "story mode." How many people want ME3 without combat rather than ME3 with different, more traditional CPRG combat? I'm guessing not many.

[Ratman_tf]

In theory having a mode where the action parts are minimized is not a terrible idea, but it does point to underlying issues and has a good potential to go wrong. And I don't think people who like ME's story but want the combat to be more RPG rather than twitch based are going to get that in "story mode." How many people want ME3 without combat rather than ME3 with different, more traditional CPRG combat? I'm guessing not many.

I think the ME series is a rather mediocre FPS, but a decent RPG. I'd rather they kept and elaborated on the sandboxy elements (Exploring the galaxy in the Normandy, exploring planets in the Mako, finding stuff and side missions.) But ME2 went all linear FPS with cutscenes.  
It doesn't help that more diffuclty usually just means moar HPs and damage, which I find to be grindy and unfun.
At this point, I just want to see how the story turns out, and I'm going to buy ME3 out of momentum, and not any excitment at the game aspect of it.

[Yegolev]

Having clicked on this thread for the first time today, I am now full of regret.

[Miasma]

Having clicked on this thread for the first time today, I am now full of regret.

Yeah I've been avoiding this thread so can someone just bottom line this for me, is it going to suck?  Is it going to be as bad as the "Dragon Age 1 is awesome" to "wtf is this mess Dragon Age 2" transition?  Is bioware EA a confirmed lost cause now?

[HaemishM]

One of the editors - an enthusiastic gamer but a complete novice with shooters - was used to test ME2's difficulty for casual players. When she died multiple times in the tutorial (a feat the designers had convinced themselves was impossible), she attracted a crowd of very unhappy looking senior designers behind her, jotting down notes on all the things that tripped her up.

I cannot fathom how this could be possible unless the editor was someone's grandmother.

[Simond]

  Is it going to be as bad as the "Dragon Age 1 is awesome" to "wtf is this mess Dragon Age 2" transition?

Careful; pointing out that DA2 isn't actually a very good game gets you yelled at here.

One of the editors - an enthusiastic gamer but a complete novice with shooters - was used to test ME2's difficulty for casual players. When she died multiple times in the tutorial (a feat the designers had convinced themselves was impossible), she attracted a crowd of very unhappy looking senior designers behind her, jotting down notes on all the things that tripped her up.

I cannot fathom how this could be possible unless the editor was someone's grandmother.

I wonder if it was Sheryl Chee?

[Sjofn]

  Is it going to be as bad as the "Dragon Age 1 is awesome" to "wtf is this mess Dragon Age 2" transition?

Careful; pointing out that DA2 isn't actually a very good game gets you yelled at here.

Bitch, please.



So basically the objection to story mode is "I don't like it exists, because I don't see the point." Clearly all games should come with one difficulty setting, tuned precisely to me, and that's it. Because that's all story mode is.

[Simond]

Designing three gameplay modes means that by definition each will receive less work and polish than if they'd just picked out and run with it.

[Rasix]

Ohh, this again.  Yay.  SWTOR's release is emboldening the anti-Bioware trolls.

..

Merril is adorable.

[Sjofn]

Really. You're really going to argue about difficulty modes? That's some pretty desperate trolling.

[Margalis]

So reading more up-to-date stuff apparently "story mode" is just lower difficulty and "action mode" just flips an automatic dialog option that can be flipped at any time via in game menus. Seems like awkward obfuscation if that is really all there is to them. Like people find the idea of difficulty levels confusing but "story mode" is somehow more understandable?

[Merusk]

Designing three gameplay modes means that by definition each will receive less work and polish than if they'd just picked out and run with it.

  

 

 

[Sjofn]

So reading more up-to-date stuff apparently "story mode" is just lower difficulty and "action mode" just flips an automatic dialog option that can be flipped at any time via in game menus. Seems like awkward obfuscation if that is really all there is to them. Like people find the idea of difficulty levels confusing but "story mode" is somehow more understandable?

I think it's less "more understandable" and more "you feel like less of a lame-o playing 'story mode' than 'easy mode.'"

[Sheepherder]

[Margalis]

I think it's less "more understandable" and more "you feel like less of a lame-o playing 'story mode' than 'easy mode.'"

But it doesn't sound like "action mode" maps to "harder."

A lot of games have started replacing "easy mode" with nicer-sounding things. I believe Catherine was another that did that. What's weird here is that "story mode" maps to easy difficulty but "action mode", rather than mapping to hard, maps to "pick dialog options for me" which has nothing at all to do with difficulty.

It sounds like they have a lot of options you can futz with and the three modes are just three different initial sets - except that the sets only differ from the baseline by one setting, but a different setting in each case...

It's pretty weird.

I also find it hard to believe that "pick dialog options for me" is important and popular enough to be promoted as one of three game modes.

[Merusk]

IIRC the thought process behind that was covered earlier.  They're including it to try and draw-in more shooter fans who just want to blow shit up, ignoring that the word is already out there that ME is a "lame" RPG license.

Who knows, though.  I've got a co-worker who strongly dislikes things that aren't FPS and said Baldur's Gate bored him when he tried it. Maybe that mode would draw him in.

[Ratman_tf]

One of the editors - an enthusiastic gamer but a complete novice with shooters - was used to test ME2's difficulty for casual players. When she died multiple times in the tutorial (a feat the designers had convinced themselves was impossible), she attracted a crowd of very unhappy looking senior designers behind her, jotting down notes on all the things that tripped her up.

I cannot fathom how this could be possible unless the editor was someone's grandmother.

Which is why it was smart of them to do it.

[Margalis]

I cannot fathom how this could be possible unless the editor was someone's grandmother.

Members of the gaming press are often terrible at video games. It's kind of weird. Like if you watch the quick looks at Giant Bomb you quickly realize that they are awful at most genres. Not only that but they often have very low understanding of most genres - in fighting games they are "button mashers" who don't understand the game mechanics at all for example.

You might figure that if you play enough games you would get pretty good at them and also understand them but I guess they play so many that none of it sinks it? I dunno. Seems a bit counter-intuitive.

[Sheepherder]

I also find it hard to believe that "pick dialog options for me" is important and popular enough to be promoted as one of three game modes.

Maybe if it rolled for a random one.  Commander Shepard is off her Aripiprazole.

[Fabricated]

Not mentioning the details (and don't mention the details btw), but is that leaked script of ME3 seriously true? Because goddamn it's fucking bad.

[UnSub]

One of the editors - an enthusiastic gamer but a complete novice with shooters - was used to test ME2's difficulty for casual players. When she died multiple times in the tutorial (a feat the designers had convinced themselves was impossible), she attracted a crowd of very unhappy looking senior designers behind her, jotting down notes on all the things that tripped her up.

I cannot fathom how this could be possible unless the editor was someone's grandmother.

They might be an RTSer, or puzzle gamer, or simwargamer, or beat'em up player, or whatever.

Or they may not like FPSs, so have avoided them as titles.

It's good that BioWare used that kind of person in a user experience situation, because (and as Stormwaltz also mentions) a lot of designers aren't able to see where people can fail within the things they've built. That kind of user experience testing is probably the exception, not the rule though.

[Fordel]

Most of yea have heard of the Yogscast by now right? Funny Minecraft videos and all that.


Ever watch them play a non-minecraft game? They're pretty bad at Minecraft itself, but they are god damned TERRIBLE at everything else. Painfully so.



Most of the gaming population is closer to their end of the spectrum of gaming skill/style then any game designer wants to face or admit. 

[Lantyssa]

It's not like games are niche anymore.  They're something that many 'average' people play and their skillz are not to the level of ours.

[K9]

  Is it going to be as bad as the "Dragon Age 1 is awesome" to "wtf is this mess Dragon Age 2" transition?

Careful; pointing out that DA2 isn't actually a very good game gets you yelled at here.

I couldn't even finish DA1 myself