Mists of Pandaria

[Sjofn]

Even then the only real advantage a Druid would have over a Paladin would be the cost of a respec. 

Uh, and having an entire raid wait around while you ran your ass back to do the respec. And rooted around in your vault for your third (or fourth) set of gear you don't carry around with you because you don't normally have that spec prepared.

[Nevermore]

Even then the only real advantage a Druid would have over a Paladin would be the cost of a respec. 

Uh, and having an entire raid wait around while you ran your ass back to do the respec. And rooted around in your vault for your third (or fourth) set of gear you don't carry around with you because you don't normally have that spec prepared.

If I have to carry around 3 sets of gear, so can you! 

For the respec: Hearth, respec, get Warlock summoned back.    But I think you know I was talking about putting the raid together, not performing all three roles during the raid.  What with the whole 'assembling the group' part.

[Sjofn]

Never seemed like a thing for assembling the raid, but for during the raid, when we'd do, say, Blood Princes "wrong" and have three tanks for it. The third tank was a druid 99% of the time when I was there. My DK always covered the warlock tank spot.  


EDIT: Also hearth -> respec -> port back takes a while. It's loading screens, your class trainer is not AT the portal, etc. And when you're pretty strict about when you end for the evening (and we generally were), that matters. :P

[Merusk]

As for the stat 'double dipping', splitting Feral does nothing to change gearing as dps vs gearing as a tank.  You already had to have a separate tank set and dps set as a pre-Mists Feral to be optimal anyway.  Is agility no longer the stat for Bears?  Because as long as it is, nothing there has changed.

So I'm still struggling to find where the negative impact is on other players.  That's something people here keep saying but just haven't demonstrated.

PVP.  The lack of need to switch stats between Tank and DPS is what caused the most ruckus in PVP.  An already-hard-to-kill Feral became impossible as a bear.

Never look at this as anything but a PVE nerf because of PVP, because that's where it sprang from.  (Much like altering healing from simply rolling lifeblooms and instant casts)   

[Lakov_Sanite]

Druid bitching

 

[Nevermore]

Never seemed like a thing for assembling the raid, but for during the raid, when we'd do, say, Blood Princes "wrong" and have three tanks for it. The third tank was a druid 99% of the time when I was there. My DK always covered the warlock tank spot.  

But when did you take a Druid for all three roles at once? I don't remember any Icecrowns where we'd go: Ok, tank on this one, heal on that one and then DPS on that other one, all during the same raid.  Maybe if someone had to leave and be replaced you could shuffle people around, but then you're waiting for that new person anyway.

As for the stat 'double dipping', splitting Feral does nothing to change gearing as dps vs gearing as a tank.  You already had to have a separate tank set and dps set as a pre-Mists Feral to be optimal anyway.  Is agility no longer the stat for Bears?  Because as long as it is, nothing there has changed.

So I'm still struggling to find where the negative impact is on other players.  That's something people here keep saying but just haven't demonstrated.

PVP.  The lack of need to switch stats between Tank and DPS is what caused the most ruckus in PVP.  An already-hard-to-kill Feral became impossible as a bear.

Never look at this as anything but a PVE nerf because of PVP, because that's where it sprang from.  (Much like altering healing from simply rolling lifeblooms and instant casts)   

Except Druids did still need to switch stats.  Your DPS set is going to emphasize different secondary stats than your Tank set.  Both still use Agility.  So what?  The other tanks all use Strength regardless of whether they're Tanks or DPS too.

Now it makes slightly more sense if they did it for PvP, but then Rokal said a Feral can still do the same thing for a limited time anyway so what changed?  You were never staying in Bear for extended periods of time in PvP anyway.

[Merusk]

When have PVP nerfs ever made complete and total sense and not been about edge cases and Arena-nonsense?  Just about never.

[Ingmar]

Often when fighting ferals in Arena they would pop back and forth as needed a lot more, that's probably where it ultimately comes from.

[Paelos]

Oddly enough I've never had as much fun tanking as I did in TBC. Wrath was too much of an AE fest, and early Cata before I left marginalized the tanking role so much they were almost pointless beyond just not getting jibbed.

[Rokal]

Except Druids did still need to switch stats.  Your DPS set is going to emphasize different secondary stats than your Tank set.  Both still use Agility.  So what?  The other tanks all use Strength regardless of whether they're Tanks or DPS too.

There is more stat overlap than you are implying compared to other tanks. Agi and mastery are pretty obvious, but both specs also benefit heavily from crit, hit, and expertise. Haste is really the only stat that is terrible for one spec but good for the other.

Now it makes slightly more sense if they did it for PvP, but then Rokal said a Feral can still do the same thing for a limited time anyway so what changed?  You were never staying in Bear for extended periods of time in PvP anyway.

Doesn't arena block CDs that are over a certain amount of minutes long? I really haven't done any in a while, but it's possible that heart of the wild won't be useable in arena because it has a 6 min CD. Even if it is usable, it'll only be for 45 seconds of the fight and then you're back to lower-proficiency. The biggest benefit to pvp will probably be the loss of bear's shieldwall for cats.

Like I said though, this does not fundamentally change the class. You are right that druids will still be able to perform lots of the tricks that make them OP now. They'd still be the best tanks for Madness for example because they could still tank impales (as feral dps) and then dps for the rest of the fight. They'll just be worse at maintaining multiple roles for an entire fight.

Oddly enough I've never had as much fun tanking as I did in TBC. Wrath was too much of an AE fest, and early Cata before I left marginalized the tanking role so much they were almost pointless beyond just not getting jibbed.

I don't even know what game you were playing. 5-mans in particular still had plenty of fights where your tank would make or break you. Every role had to step their game up really.

[Ashamanchill]

As a Tank Druid main I am fucking thrilled to bits that they are finally splitting up the two specs. Maybe now I can finally get real tanking leather and no longer have every rogue and cat in the raid to roll against. You know, exactly like the other tanks. I know that isn't the route that Blizzard is going to go, but quite frankly that's what they will have to do if they want to avoid bears doing insane dps. Of course they will be, WHEN THEY ARE WEARING DPS GEAR!

Also, lets be real, bear-catting was really only a problem amongst the highest tiers of players. That shit simply did not have an impact in LFR and the normal DS I raided in.

Off topic, I am super psyched for MoP. Based on Ironwood's advice, I rolled an enhancement shaman, and it is fucking fun. I'm thinking he's gonna be my new main.

[Ingmar]

Arena's cooldown line used to be 10 minutes, you could use anything shorter than that. Dunno if it has changed.

[Paelos]

I don't even know what game you were playing. 5-mans in particular still had plenty of fights where your tank would make or break you. Every role had to step their game up really.

Ok, what examples are you thinking of?

[Ingmar]

First one that leaps to mind is the BREAK YOURSELF UPON MY BODY dude. There's a lot of positioning of bosses in general in Cata.

[Merusk]

As a Tank Druid main I am fucking thrilled to bits that they are finally splitting up the two specs. Maybe now I can finally get real tanking leather and no longer have every rogue and cat in the raid to roll against. You know, exactly like the other tanks. I know that isn't the route that Blizzard is going to go, but quite frankly that's what they will have to do if they want to avoid bears doing insane dps. Of course they will be, WHEN THEY ARE WEARING DPS GEAR!

I think Monks get to roll against you for tanking leather.  So now there's 2 leather tanks and 3 plate tanks.  (DPS now has three leather wearers.. welcome to clothy-hell DPS druids.)

[Paelos]

First one that leaps to mind is the BREAK YOURSELF UPON MY BODY dude. There's a lot of positioning of bosses in general in Cata.

Yeah that's in Stonecore. Along with Deadmines as places almost nobody ever wanted to run at release.

[Ashamanchill]

I think Monks get to roll against you for tanking leather.  So now there's 2 leather tanks and 3 plate tanks.  (DPS now has three leather wearers.. welcome to clothy-hell DPS druids.)

You would be right, except Blizz has stated they are not making tanking leather, everyone rolls against the big pile of agi leather.  

[Zetor]

First one that leaps to mind is the BREAK YOURSELF UPON MY BODY dude. There's a lot of positioning of bosses in general in Cata.

Yeah that's in Stonecore. Along with Deadmines as places almost nobody ever wanted to run at release.

There are quite a few 'if the tank is slacking you'll lose' fights:
- ZA: dragonhawk (hope you like adds), lynx (don't let him heal in his totems)
- ZG: snake (positioning, especially with breath weapon), panther (tank responsibility to pace adds), jin'do (spirits, oh god)
- BRC: dragon dude (don't let stacks fall off, but don't get too many stacks); in a pug you'll probably have to be interrupting the first boss too + dancing in/out of a beam
- TOT: first boss (with no CC, you need fast pickups on 3 adds or the healer bites it)
- GB: forgemaster dude (hope the tank knows what 'kite' means)
- SC: ozruk
- SFK has quite a few tank-heavy fights like the ghost captain dude (face him away while dodging desecrations AND picking up adds), and the end boss (again with positioning and adds)

On the bright side, my not-that-well-geared tank (justice + LFR stuff, some valor stuff) can basically solo most heroic bosses at this point.  

[Rokal]

Ok, what examples are you thinking of?

I know you did the Tol'vir dungeon at least.

Husam (first boss): Tank needed to pay close attention to the mines on the ground and needed to carefully move the boss out of them when they started counting down. Tanks were the most important role on this fight.

Lockmaw (second boss): Tank needed to constantly attempt to get aggro on small adds. Also largely responsible for damaging the adds given tank aoe dmg in cata and vengeance. Pretty easy fight for tanks, but not one you slept through.

Barim (third boss): Tank needed to use cooldowns for spike damage, pull boss out of ground aoe, and kite purple phoenix for phase 2 while taking care not to let any shadow clones of your party reach it. Honestly everyone was pretty important in this fight which is why lots of groups wiped on it. Having a bad tank, healer, or dps was enough to sink you.

Siamat (fourth boss): Tank needed to gather adds to kill while avoiding thunder clouds. Also needed to make sure to run away from melee adds before they died. There was a good potential to wipe if the adds weren't handled correctly or the tank fell off during the phase 2 transition, but ultimately healers were the determining factor for success.

There are plenty of fights throughout the rest of the dungeons (some of which zetor covered) that really relied on the tank too.

[Nevermore]

There is more stat overlap than you are implying compared to other tanks. Agi and mastery are pretty obvious, but both specs also benefit heavily from crit, hit, and expertise. Haste is really the only stat that is terrible for one spec but good for the other.

Irrelevant since you still had to have two different sets of gear.  If they really needed to differentiate DPS stats from Tank stats more, all they had to do was give Bears parry (what, bears can't swipe weapons aside with their big-ass paws?  In a game with fire-fucking-breathing dragons?) and decouple crit from the goofy shield thing.  There, greater diversity in stats.  And apparently that issue isn't even being addressed with the split anyway, from what other people have said.

Doesn't arena block CDs that are over a certain amount of minutes long? I really haven't done any in a while, but it's possible that heart of the wild won't be useable in arena because it has a 6 min CD. Even if it is usable, it'll only be for 45 seconds of the fight and then you're back to lower-proficiency. The biggest benefit to pvp will probably be the loss of bear's shieldwall for cats.

Like I said though, this does not fundamentally change the class. You are right that druids will still be able to perform lots of the tricks that make them OP now. They'd still be the best tanks for Madness for example because they could still tank impales (as feral dps) and then dps for the rest of the fight. They'll just be worse at maintaining multiple roles for an entire fight.

Like Ingmar said, for as long as I played at least the cutoff was 10 minutes on abilities.  And if the best people can come up with for such a fundamental change that effects the entire game is because Feral was strong in arenas (when historically they weren't), then that just reinforces my Fuck Blizzard stance even more.

[Ingmar]

Yeah the gear had to be gemmed differently, so it isn't really a case where you can say the gear overlap mattered, other than on some pieces of jewelry.

[caladein]

The gemming is much less of an issue than the gear itself.  Especially now as Heroic-10 gearing is like pulling blood from a stone.

Once you have the item, just carry sets of gems/enchant scrolls in your bag.  Hell, even I carried stacks of glyphs on my Priest throughout Wrath to switch between fights on top of dual-specs (and/or swapping spec sets depending on the night's plan).

[Zetor]

Honestly, that's a level of micromanagement I hope I'll never have to do (and since I'm not in a raiding guild, I won't). Not to mention an annoying gold sink. [e: referring to the 'regem/enchant/glyph in the middle of the run' thing here]

Even for my ele/resto shaman I'm content getting one set of gear and just using gems/enchants that are good for both specs (tier sets are an exception)

[Nevermore]

The gemming is much less of an issue than the gear itself.  Especially now as Heroic-10 gearing is like pulling blood from a stone.

Once you have the item, just carry sets of gems/enchant scrolls in your bag.  Hell, even I carried stacks of glyphs on my Priest throughout Wrath to switch between fights on top of dual-specs (and/or swapping spec sets depending on the night's plan).

But if anything gearing will be even worse in Mists, so how is that even relevant to splitting up Feral?

[caladein]

Because Ferals (and their raids) don't get a two-for-one for each tier token.

[Nevermore]

Because Ferals (and their raids) don't get a two-for-one for each tier token.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but whatever gearing issue existed or didn't exist in pre-Mists will still exist in Mists.  Splitting Feral didn't change the fact that DPS and Tanks will still need the same gear, from what everyone else has said.  Is your argument that you can gear up a DPS and Tank at the same time with the same gear?  Hasn't changed.

Question: how are they differentiating DPS agility gear and Tank agility gear on Monks?  Sounds like they'll have the same 'problem' as Druids.

[Paelos]

I know you did the Tol'vir dungeon at least.

I forgot about the first boss. That's true you did have to move around a lot. The rest of them I think you're reaching a bit. Hell, the last boss is basically a DPS race and a healer test.

We also ran a shitton of Halls and GB. Just seemed to come up the most on the random. We joked OMG Halls again. I think we got it 5 times in a row one week.

[caladein]

Let me explain my point less glibly.  Realistically, every (heroic) 10-man group needs to gear three tanks.  Not just because of attendance or technical issues, but also because sometimes the group needs to do a fight "the wrong way" or because one of the primary tanks' spec is awful for a specific encounter.  And sometimes you might actually need three tanks like with Halfus.

The gear synergy between Feral Tanks and Feral DPS is much higher than it is with any of the other tanks.  It's also higher than any of the healers, especially Paladins which are completely boned as none of their specs even share main-hand weapons.  Just as important as the synergy between items in general is that occasionally (read: T13) tank tier set bonuses are some of the most important pieces of gear the raid will get the entire expansion.

By having a Feral DPS be that swing tank, the raid gets a geared DPS all through their progression, then just needs to spend a trivial amount of gold to get a fully gear tank for that one fight.

It's not something that's going to effect a large number of players.  But it's a case that exists now and won't with Mists as they're splitting up the tier sets along with the specs.

[Nevermore]

It's not something that's going to effect a large number of players.  But it's a case that exists now and won't with Mists as they're splitting up the tier sets along with the specs.

That's all well and good (except for the part about healing Druid gear synergy), but splitting Feral up has absolutely nothing to do with gear.  Nothing.  They could just as easily split up Tanking and DPS agility tiered gear while leaving Feral itself alone.

[Simond]

First one that leaps to mind is the BREAK YOURSELF UPON MY BODY dude. There's a lot of positioning of bosses in general in Cata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tMXQvp3cBY

[Sheepherder]

...so Feral flexibility would only be an 'issue' where there would be some advantage in switching in the middle of an encounter.

In Dragon Soul, for example?  Morchok (sunder swaps), Yor'sahj (slime stage), Hagara (outer rim stages), Ultraxion (fading light swaps), Blackhorn (sunder swaps), Spine (tendon), and Madness (impale swap, blistering tentacles). 7/8.  I dunno about the last guy, maybe it's 8/8.

[SurfD]

...so Feral flexibility would only be an 'issue' where there would be some advantage in switching in the middle of an encounter.

In Dragon Soul, for example?  Morchok (sunder swaps), Yor'sahj (slime stage), Hagara (outer rim stages), Ultraxion (fading light swaps), Blackhorn (sunder swaps), Spine (tendon), and Madness (impale swap, blistering tentacles). 7/8.  I dunno about the last guy, maybe it's 8/8.

Yeah.  You dont really think about it much untill you see a good Bearcat in action.  Case in point, I did a full clear DS run a week or two back where we did like 3 hardmode fights, and one of our tanks was a very good Bearcat.  He never changed specs, never swapped gear that i could tell, and was consistantly second or third on the DPS meter on every single fight, regardless of if he was offtanking or not.  Hell, on madness, he managed to hit #1 on the meter by a decent margin while being the only tank (of course, madness is Tank DPS heaven).  And the rest of our dps were no slouches either, so it's not like he didnt have competition.   One thing a lot of people forget about Bearcat is that with no split tank / dps trees, a feral tank has access to ALL of the cat DPS cooldowns at no extra charge, allowing them to do some serious burst dps whenever they swap to cat when not meatshielding it up.  Especially on long fights like madness.

[Lantyssa]

Well damn.  One of your tanks was effective and it help let you clear the dungeon more easily.  Better nerf it quick!

[SurfD]

Well damn.  One of your tanks was effective and it help let you clear the dungeon more easily.  Better nerf it quick!

When Tank A is putting out 4x the overall Damage of Tank B simply because 90% of the stats he wants as a Tank are fully applicable as DPS stats on demand because all he has to do is shift to cat form whereby he can do dps compedative to actual DPS classes in DPS specs, something is a little off.

I play a druid as my main, and even I have no problem admitting that Feral Double Dipping needs some kind of fix.

I mean, if a Prot Warrior or Paladin could do compedative dps with regular DPS classes without changing gear, simply by switching Stances or Auras, the rage would be defening.  Why should druids be any different?

[Ashamanchill]

It's funny cause you don't even have to switch to cat. Bears damage is through the roof, and this problem will continue because of vengeance, and the fact that they are wearing dps gear. I fully expect it to show up on Brewmasters as well.