Mists of Pandaria

[Pantastic]

This one in particular is profoundly saddening. That someone can play a "game" where the game just tells them exactly what to do and they do that and it works says to me that that person has very little interest in playing a game and the game has very little interest in providing one. At that point it's just an "interactive experience" / chat room with graphics. Which I suppose is fine if that's what people want, but personally I am not really on board the whole "press buttons and win game roller coaster ride" approach to "gaming."

What's so magical about 'look at a sticky in the forums or on an external website to find your rotation' that makes it not "profoundly saddening"? I just don't see how 'look at an in-game help screen to find your rotation' is somehow terrible and saddening, but looking at a FAQ somewhere is just peachy keen. And how does not looking at an external website move the game from actually gaming to gaming in scare quotes?

If you're objecting to people looking up their rotation instead of learning and mastering the system, that ship sailed back as soon as Blizzard made the ideal rotation more complicated than 'spam 2' (which, IIRC didn't really happen until BC for some classes). The mechanics of a game like WOW are way too complicated and hidden for anyone to figure them out by just playing the game; a few theorycrafters experiment to find the underlying math, plug stuff into spreadsheets, and test to be sure it actually works, but the vast majority of players either do things wrong or follow what theorycrafters post on a website.

[SurfD]

This one in particular is profoundly saddening. That someone can play a "game" where the game just tells them exactly what to do and they do that and it works says to me that that person has very little interest in playing a game and the game has very little interest in providing one. At that point it's just an "interactive experience" / chat room with graphics. Which I suppose is fine if that's what people want, but personally I am not really on board the whole "press buttons and win game roller coaster ride" approach to "gaming."

What's so magical about 'look at a sticky in the forums or on an external website to find your rotation' that makes it not "profoundly saddening"? I just don't see how 'look at an in-game help screen to find your rotation' is somehow terrible and saddening, but looking at a FAQ somewhere is just peachy keen. And how does not looking at an external website move the game from actually gaming to gaming in scare quotes?

If you're objecting to people looking up their rotation instead of learning and mastering the system, that ship sailed back as soon as Blizzard made the ideal rotation more complicated than 'spam 2' (which, IIRC didn't really happen until BC for some classes). The mechanics of a game like WOW are way too complicated and hidden for anyone to figure them out by just playing the game; a few theorycrafters experiment to find the underlying math, plug stuff into spreadsheets, and test to be sure it actually works, but the vast majority of players either do things wrong or follow what theorycrafters post on a website.

Huh?  WoW seems pretty stratiforward to me.  I mean, other the maybe Fire mages, or some of the warlock specs, figuring out something pretty close to the "optimal" rotation through basic play of any class is easily doable.  Turning to theorycrafting websites is usually a matter of improving your dps by a small margin to prove you are "leet" and know everything about your class.  Turning to E-J is usually for people who want to improve their dps by 2-4% to squeeze the most they can get out of their class.  If going to E-J or something similar results in a 20% DPS boost, that is an indication that you are missing something fundamental about your spec's rotation.

Its the difference between an Enhance shaman in Wrath asking "Should i be using a 2hander" or asking "Should I be using a Spell DPS mainhand if the Ilevel + Spellpower synergy with my talents makes it superior to an agility Mainhand".   The former indicates a basic lack of understanding about Enhance as a spec, the latter is a theorycrafting question designed to possibly increase your dps by a small amount.

[Azazel]

No, you're wrong. Particularly given the gulf between quest/levelling-play and max level dungeons and the sweeping changes that Blizz likes to apply each expansion. I currently have NFI how to play my Pally (at all) or the non-feral specs of my Druid. Neither is max level, but the number of changes both toons have seen since they were created in Vanilla just turns me off needing to relearn them, so they stay forever-alts.

The couple times I took my level 70-something (Ret) Pally into dungeons, I had people bitching about my poor DPS, when in quest play stuff dies just fine.

[Rendakor]

What Az said. You can literally click random buttons and quest to max level; with LFD you can even do it in dungeons without ever actually thinking about your class abilities. What a lot of serious gamers forget is that there are a lot of people for whom WoW was their first MMO or even first serious foray into gaming. A lot of girlfriends, siblings, etc. joined WoW to play with someone else, and some of them end up at max level with little to no idea how to play their class. We had a bunch of people like that in my guild that we had to teach the basics of the game before we could try to get them into endgame, and more useful in-game tutorials will be a huge help for people like that.

[caladein]

Or, you could just making leveling up more difficult and have it take care of itself .  Which is an extension of the Cata model with basic raid mechanics.

Seriously though, WoW is pretty straightforward if you aren't a pure.  If you are, it's not always obvious what you should drop or replace all the time.  That said, it's not difficult to figure things out to a relatively successful level if you try.  The deep theorycraft-based optimizations just aren't fantastically large anymore, in large part because Cata got rid of a lot of dumb or out-of-control systems like pet stat flooring and Armor Penetration from gear, respectively.

The reality is that a lot of players (even the majority of my raidmates) aren't playing to get better for its own sake, but instead for social reasons or because they like shiny things.  Just as importantly is that WoW isn't a game that you need to actually be terribly good at to "win".  Challenge Modes are going to be the first full system that we're not going to be able to wait out, hopefully.

[Merusk]

You sound like a physicist complaining that people don't understand derivatives.   They don't, it doesn't matter to them in any way shape or form the way it does to you.

[luckton]

Oh how I wish this was a real tool 

[Paelos]

Floor death stats would make me so happy as a leader.

[Fabricated]

The Premier Raid Mount thing is dumb since literally everyone does that now.

Other than that yeah.

[luckton]

In other news today, Bliz's outlined MoP PvP changes.

http://us.battle.net//wow/en/blog/6176110


As a PvE guy who cares not for the angst-fest of PvP, I'm happy they aren't introducing a new Wintergrasp/Tol Barad for MoP.  I don't know who's idea it was to tie PvE content to the success or failure of PvP, let alone do it for two expansions in a row, but thankfully it seems they were finally sacked.

[Rendakor]

I'd rather have a WG/TB than have to deal with fucking world bosses again. Unless there's some way to trigger a spawn for your guild, these are going to be limited to the top few guilds on the server, which sucks because VOA/BH were generally regarded as easy sources of tier gear.

[Rokal]

Given that people will get individual loot, world bosses will probably be a bit less exclusive than they were. You probably won't mind inviting random out-of-guild warlock if they aren't going to potentially take loot away from your guild.

That said, I'd like to see a 'shared credit' system for world bosses like what Rift has. If anyone contributes to the world boss fight, they should get a loot roll. It would turn world bosses into a big celebration for the server when they spawned, rather than an angry/competitive event where only 40 people get a shot at loot and people outside of that group are encouraged to grief them.

[Rendakor]

Do you think they'll even allow 40? I assumed they'd grey out if you used more than 25. But yea it would be nice if they worked like Rift.

To be clear though, I'm not worried that I could/could not get an invite to help UberGuildX kill WorldBossY; I'm worried that as a guild leader, my guild will never get a shot at them because we were never in the top 3 of our server. If they spawn pretty frequently but have a lockout system like LFR (can kill multiple times but only 1 shot at loot per week) it might not be so bad.

[Merusk]

I have serious doubts they'll do anything as either alternative you're proposing, Rendakor.  More likely it will be "I have aggro tables for 26 people... here's the instant-wipe mechanic!"  and "Well this boss drops loot at the LFR level so nobody /serious/ is going to kill him."

[Paelos]

I think it will be the latter, personally. The best loot will always been the carefully controlled environments of dungeons.

[Pantastic]

Huh?  WoW seems pretty stratiforward to me.  I mean, other the maybe Fire mages, or some of the warlock specs, figuring out something pretty close to the "optimal" rotation through basic play of any class is easily doable.  Turning to theorycrafting websites is usually a matter of improving your dps by a small margin to prove you are "leet" and know everything about your class.  Turning to E-J is usually for people who want to improve their dps by 2-4% to squeeze the most they can get out of their class.  If going to E-J or something similar results in a 20% DPS boost, that is an indication that you are missing something fundamental about your spec's rotation.

People like to say that as a brag, but it's simply not true. There's no way that you're figuring out things like or which dots/buffs you should let drop off and which you should focus on never dropping, what you should use as a rage/runic dump, or which abilities increase your damage and which you should actually avoid (like ferocious bite for ferals or rupture for rogues) just from playing normally. And please don't try to say that you just have to read tooltips, what abilites are even useful to use has changed many times without any corresponding change in tooltips.

I just don't buy that you're coming up with anything close to actual rotations and priority lists on your own from simply playing the game, unless the class/spec happens to have a really basic rotation. And I would say that virtually everyone who hasn't read about their spec's rotation (or done theorycrafting) is missing something fundamental about their spec's rotation. I'm not talking about delving deep into EJ threads (which are often misinformation these days anyway), just reading a basic FAQ like the stickies in WOW class forums or first post in an EJ thread.

It gets really silly if by 'basic play' you mean solo leveling content, since most classes can't actually use their full-boss-damage-rotation while leveling at all, as mobs die way too quickly to even get a full set of dots, buffs, and procs started. Opening moves (charge, feral/rogue stealth, charged pyro, and so on) have a huge effect on each fight but are insignifcant (and often don't work) on bosses. Some classes, like feral druids, can't even use their basic spammable attack (shred) while soloing! Even 5-man dungeons don't typically have fights long enough to make full-boss-rotations usable, except maybe for a single boss if you have a low-geared group. There's just no way you're using that to sort out a real rotation from an occasional fight that lasts long enough to even fire it off.

[FieryBalrog]

There are some specs right now where you can definitely figure out the rotation by just playing it, e.g. combat rogue (spam SS->Revealing Strike-> Evisc, use cooldowns duh) but most aren't like that.

[Zetor]

That Silvershard Mine battleground sounds like pushing the leetle kart in TF2.

Somehow, I'm fine with that. 

[Pantastic]

There are some specs right now where you can definitely figure out the rotation by just playing it, e.g. combat rogue (spam SS->Revealing Strike-> Evisc, use cooldowns duh) but most aren't like that.

That's at odds with what the sticky on the WOW forums and 3 different sites I googled up about rogue rotations. Why do think they're wrong about using Slice N Dice and rupture? SnD has been really strong for combat rogues since vanilla, so I really suspect that not using it is a large DPS loss.  Also, how did you figure out which poisons to use through normal play (I consider long-running buffs part of your rotation even if you usually set them before combat)? I'm not really sure how you'd decide on them without either crunching numbers or reading it somewhere.

I'm not just trying to nitpick your rotation, I'm trying to highlight how hard it is to figure this stuff out by 'just playing normally'. How do you figure out rupture or not, or SnD or not, or which poisons from just playing? That's what I'm getting at, if you read it from a website then I don't see why it's a big deal to put the website info in game.

[Sheepherder]

Yeah, you're missing two higher DPS finishers from the combat rotation.  Infrequently it's also necessary for the rogue to Expose Armour, though usually not, because warriors ruin shit with their awesomeness nowadays and everyone plays them.

[Simond]

Male Panderen emotes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Kd_ybcTlo

[Sjofn]

Being able to downvote some BGs in your queue makes me go <3. I'd never WSG again if I could.

[Ashamanchill]

I'm with the rabbit.


And mastering the ins and outs of your spec's rotation isn't another 2 or 4 per cent increase, it can honestly double it.

[SurfD]

And mastering the ins and outs of your spec's rotation isn't another 2 or 4 per cent increase, it can honestly double it.

Except that that isn't really mastering the ins and outs of your specs rotation.  Thats going from having no fucking idea what you are doing, to actually understanding the basics of your spec.

I mean, like i said earlier.  There is not a spec out there, bar maybe Fire Mages, Sub Rogues and a few of the warlock specs, that are really that complicated to figure out through basic play.  The Basic rotations for pretty much all dps specs are pretty easy to figure out (I can't vouch for healing specs, as I have never played any of my toons as a healer) .  The need for theorycrafting / Ej steps in when you are then trying to figure out things like haste breakpoints, do's / don'ts of dot clipping, or when you should hardcast something for a minor dps increase and things like that.

[Pantastic]

I mean, like i said earlier.  There is not a spec out there, bar maybe Fire Mages, Sub Rogues and a few of the warlock specs, that are really that complicated to figure out through basic play.  The Basic rotations for pretty much all dps specs are pretty easy to figure out (I can't vouch for healing specs, as I have never played any of my toons as a healer) . 

OK, show us your system mastery. Someone posted a combat rogue rotation that is at odds with the standard rotation, what steps should he take during basic play to figure out whether or not to include SnD, Rupture, and expose armor in his rotation? This will also explain to us what you mean by basic play, whether it's just solo leveling, or dungeons, or raiding, and whether you're using add-ons (which the majority of players don't) or just built-in gameplay. And let us know how much time this will take, since glancing at a web page with a 'here's your basic rotation, and also your recommended stat priorities and a list of starter gear to get' takes like 5-15 minutes total.

The problem is that you can't actually figure out 'the basics of your spec' without either going into heavy math and theorycrafting, looking at a page put together using info from someone who did, or getting really lucky. If you really think you can, lay out how our combat rogue player can sort his rotation.

[Rokal]

Posted combat rotation also ignores Killing Spree and Adrenaline Rush, both of which new players would probably use at incorrect times unless they were familiar with the passive skill list now that talent trees are gone.

[Azazel]

I mean, like i said earlier.  There is not a spec out there, bar maybe Fire Mages, Sub Rogues and a few of the warlock specs, that are really that complicated to figure out through basic play.  The Basic rotations for pretty much all dps specs are pretty easy to figure out (I can't vouch for healing specs, as I have never played any of my toons as a healer) .  The need for theorycrafting / Ej steps in when you are then trying to figure out things like haste breakpoints, do's / don'ts of dot clipping, or when you should hardcast something for a minor dps increase and things like that.

We've been through this. What, exactly do you consider "basic play"?

Because I can be out in the quest world and mash just about any random series of keys from 1-10 with my face and the mobs will die, the quests will progress, and I will level up to max.

[Sheepherder]

The Basic rotations for pretty much all dps specs are pretty easy to figure out (I can't vouch for healing specs, as I have never played any of my toons as a healer).

The other day I spotted a Fury warrior specced 3/3 Incite  and 2/2 Blood and Thunder.  He'd stance dance to toss up Rend and spread it with Thunderclap.  He had that shit pretty well figured out, it was too bad he was doing 4k DPS.

[luckton]

Bliz has begun transitioning the PTR (not beta, but the Live client's testing ground) to 5.0.  The pre-expansion pack patch should be up for testing soon, I'd say within the next week or so.

Give it another month or so for testing, and I think we'll be in 5.0 mechanics land by the end of the summer, which would put the actual expansion launch in late September/early October.  This estimate is also based on the fact that the Halloween event has been updated on beta with level 90 loots.

[Paelos]

September is a good release point. More people game in the Fall/Winter than anytime I've seen when it came to my time in WoW.

[Simond]

Female Pandaren emotes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BSn-EWWPyc

[Dark_MadMax]

In other news today, Bliz's outlined MoP PvP changes.



Will there be bigger changes between PvP and PvE realms in the future?
Tom Chilton - It’s always a possibility. We want to see how things go with these changes first. We don’t want to promise any big plans at this point in time, but we are always thinking of ways we can add to the experience where we can.

WoW been dead to me for long time . I doubt anything  will change it . But the changes they making are in right direction. - separate rulesets for pve and pvp servers is the way to go. Problem is all those changes are merely reverting some of the damage done  . But not entirely and not addressing core issues:

- rewards should be gone entirely from instanced BGs
- flying mounts removed completely
- there needs to be incentives for world pvp  and objectives to spark battles around (something which wow never had ,aside of gimmicks in tbc, which were obsolete by instanced bgs with better rewards)


I doubt that they are going to make necessary changes after so many years of marching into totally carebear themepark direction. WoW pvp was at its best at release  pre -bg. Every single patch was making it worse and worse- after 9 years I think they dont even know what world pvp is.

[Paelos]

Killing BGs isn't going to make the game more popular. That's a dumb assessment of the issues with PvP. World PvP will never work as a concept.

[luckton]

WoW been dead to me for long time . I doubt anything  will change it . But the changes they making are in right direction. - separate rulesets for pve and pvp servers is the way to go. Problem is all those changes are merely reverting some of the damage done  . But not entirely and not addressing core issues:

- rewards should be gone entirely from instanced BGs
- flying mounts removed completely
- there needs to be incentives for world pvp  and objectives to spark battles around (something which wow never had ,aside of gimmicks in tbc, which were obsolete by instanced bgs with better rewards)


I doubt that they are going to make necessary changes after so many years of marching into totally carebear themepark direction. WoW pvp was at its best at release  pre -bg. Every single patch was making it worse and worse- after 9 years I think they dont even know what world pvp is.

Shadowbane closed up a while ago.  Sounds like you missed the good times.

[Dark_MadMax]

Shadowbane closed up a while ago.  Sounds like you missed the good times.

Lol I didnt miss SB. Was a big steaming pile of sb.exe