Mists of Pandaria

[Lakov_Sanite]

...It has begun!

[Rokal]

They should do (at least) three things:

1. Give every class where it's justifiable a tanking option and/or healing option.
2. Unfuck CC, like they promised to do at the Wrath launch.  Not with glyphs.  Not with talents.  Just innately make CC capable of lasting through moderate damage.
3. a) Stop pretending the low threat ceiling of the initial pull and (in general) generating threat is a fun metagame for more than 5% of people.
or b) Make your melee and pet class DPS innately capable of tanking one or two mobs consistently.  So you could do a 4DPS + healer group as long as everyone tanks a target or two.

They already did 2 & 3 really. CC doesn't aggro mobs anymore, so you can spend as much time as you want setting up a pull. Damage still breaks most CC, but it hardly matters considering how easy pulls are to control at this point. Nobody even uses CC in the 4.3 dungeons and these are the model Blizzard will be using in MoP.

They decided threat wasn't interesting gameplay and buffed tank threat by something like 300% during 4.2. It's really, really tough to pull threat off a tank that isn't afk at this point. Since threat was no longer considered fun gameplay, tanks will be moving more towards active mitigation in Cata so that they don't fall asleep.

The tanking/healing specs on all the classes... there are a lot of downsides to doing. Admittedly I loved how this worked in Rift, but tanks and healers were still the least commonly played roles (and tanks still got instant queues). In WoW it would be tougher to implement well because each class would need 1 unique tanking and unique 1 healing tree. Since Rift has broad classes and specific souls, it was sort of like a WoW rogue and WoW hunter being different specs of the same 'class' and sharing a healing and tanking tree.

I think you'd run into a lot of issues where people disliked that their preferred dps spec had been replaced by a healing or tanking tree. How many Combat rogues would want to be forced into playing Assassination as their only dps option, for example? If players wanted to play hybrid classes, they probably would have rerolled to one in the past 7 years (and in fact class populations shows that this is largely what happened). How much does Blizzard really gain by turning the remaining classes into complete hybrids at this point?

The bundle of exotic mysteries combined with easier dungeons means that there are lots of tanks and healers in the LFD queue at this point, and dps queues are pretty short. It would be a lot of disruptive change with potentially little gain.

[Sheepherder]

They decided threat wasn't interesting gameplay and buffed tank threat by something like 300% during 4.2. It's really, really tough to pull threat off a tank that isn't afk at this point. Since threat was no longer considered fun gameplay, tanks will be moving more towards active mitigation in Cata so that they don't fall asleep.

It's an assumption on my part that we haven't seen the last of fuckwits (in this case it actually is Ghostcrawler who is responsible) trying to make tanking fucking miserable, again.

I think you'd run into a lot of issues where people disliked that their preferred dps spec had been replaced by a healing or tanking tree. How many Combat rogues would want to be forced into playing Assassination as their only dps option, for example? If players wanted to play hybrid classes, they probably would have rerolled to one in the past 7 years (and in fact class populations shows that this is largely what happened). How much does Blizzard really gain by turning the remaining classes into complete hybrids at this point?

Druids now have four specs.

[Rokal]

Adding a 4th spec for every class would be way less controversial, but would also require much more work from Blizzard. Cat/Bear is a bit different because the specs were virtually identical except for a few talents: they'd already done all of the work.

I don't think either change is likely to actually happen. If anything, Warlock tanking probably will be cut before release, or won't be fleshed out in the way that other tanks are.

[Sjofn]

"Add more tanks!" isn't going to actually result in more tanks. At best it results in people like me speccing the tank tree ... but I still can only play one tank at a time. 

[Rokal]

The difference is that a dps who is tired of waiting in queue can say 'F this, I'll just tank' but yeah, overall tanks would still be the least-played role by a wide margin.

[Sjofn]

They could say that, but by and large they do not. Otherwise I wouldn't have seen so many ret paladins and DPS druids and shit. There were quite a few times we'd lose the tank and the only one in the group who could tank was ... me, the healer. And most of the time the DPSers didn't have a heal spec either.

DPSers want to DPS. Period. Which is totally fine, don't get me wrong. But you'll not be convincing them to do anything besides DPS by throwing more tank specs at them.

[Malakili]

They could say that, but by and large they do not. Otherwise I wouldn't have seen so many ret paladins and DPS druids and shit. There were quite a few times we'd lose the tank and the only one in the group who could tank was ... me, the healer. And most of the time the DPSers didn't have a heal spec either.

DPSers want to DPS. Period. Which is totally fine, don't get me wrong. But you'll not be convincing them to do anything besides DPS by throwing more tank specs at them.

Maybe its just a big play by Blizzard so that they can say "See you DPSers, you complained about your queue times, we gave you and out and you didn't take it, so bite it."

Maybe they actually think it will work though.

[Nevermore]

The difference is that a dps who is tired of waiting in queue can say 'F this, I'll just tank' but yeah, overall tanks would still be the least-played role by a wide margin.

Do you really want your tank to be a 'fuck this, I'll just tank' DPSer instead of someone who actually, you know, enjoys tanking?

[Rokal]

The difference is that a dps who is tired of waiting in queue can say 'F this, I'll just tank' but yeah, overall tanks would still be the least-played role by a wide margin.

Do you really want your tank to be a 'fuck this, I'll just tank' DPSer instead of someone who actually, you know, enjoys tanking?

With Wrath/4.3 style dungeons? I really wouldn't mind. In an ideal situation the gearing would work like Feral Cat->Feral Bear. Similar enough that you can tank in your DPS gear without causing major problems.

Again Rift is an example of this system in action: there were a couple of times while leveling where I queued as a DPS rogue and switched to a tanking spec when our tank bailed, or queued as a DPS cleric and switched to healing spec when a healer bailed. As long as the content isn't super tough, it doesn't really matter.

GC already shot down the idea of dedicated warlock tanking. The MoP glyph wasn't a new direction for the class, it was just some extra flavor/utility.

Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.

Frankly I'm surprised people were excited about the idea of a new spec where you would spend 100% of your time in demon form. Druids have already shown that spending all of your time shape-shifted gets boring quickly and removes a lot of the fun from getting new gear or using transmog.

I spent a bunch of time collecting the PVP recolor of T4 on my druid for transmog only to see ugly ass moonkin form every time I play him instead.

[FieryBalrog]

Druids make up for it with a ridiculous suite of quality of life and utility perks though 

[Sheepherder]

Ghostcrawler likes grind, doesn't want to broaden out to more tank classes.  Like a compass capable of finding magnetic wrong or true wrong with a flip of a switch.

[Ironwood]

The difference is that a dps who is tired of waiting in queue can say 'F this, I'll just tank' but yeah, overall tanks would still be the least-played role by a wide margin.

I don't really want those chaps tanking.

Fucking Paladin who wasn't using Righteous Fury because he didn't know it existed.  Get the fuck outta my queue.

[DraconianOne]

I'd come back if they let 'locks tank properly. 

[luckton]

I'd come back if they let 'locks tank properly. 

[luckton]

Spoke too soon, apparently.

GC to Warlocks: "No, really, fuck you."

Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.

As some of you have pointed out, the glyph of Demon Hunting in your beta build doesn't deliver on what I described above as the design. The newer version of the glyph, hopefully available in the next beta build, allows a warlock to toggle in and out of the off-tank / survival mode, more like the druid going Bear or the warrior going Defensive.

The new shapeshift granted by the glyph is called Threatening Presence (PH) and adds Taunt and Fury Ward to the normal Metamorphosis toolkit. You still get the damage reduction from mastery instead of the damage boost from mastery while in this form. You can also choose to go into normal Metamorphosis even if you have the glyph. Let us know how it feels.

We appreciate all the feedback and passion on this topic. We expected this glyph would serve a pretty niche community and were surprised at how many players were excited about it. We are still in beta and are still very much experimenting with what kind of gamplay we can deliver in glyphs.

Seriously, fun is fun and all, but why take the time, effort, resources, and money to make Warlocks tank, but not go ATW with it?  Either go full monty, or retune Metamorph so it's just a pure DPS boost a la Tree-form.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Big mistake here I think.  Wow needs to stop thinking about this magical 'good for the game' bullshit and just give players more fun things to do.  They tried way too hard in cataclysm and look where it got them.

[luckton]

I don't understand what he means by Druid tanks having to find separate gear just to tank.  There is no 'leather-tank'-only gear.  They use the same DPS gear that Cats and all three Rogue specs use.  Their mitigation comes through talents and abilities that either give them skills to defend themselves or modifies/enhances the stats on that DPS gear in order to win.  They could just as easily do the same for Warlocks!  If anything, Druids have to have two separate sets for caster DPS and healing, which the game is itemized for.   Casters need Hit and healer needs Spirit.  Since the two are interchangeable ANYWAYS because of talents and reforging, the only time you ever really see a difference is in the class gear sets, where the bonuses are unique. 

It really seems like a weak argument on GC's part.  I really hope they pull their head out of their ass on this before it goes live.

[Fabricated]

Part of me wants to blame PVP for this.

[luckton]

Part of me wants to blame PVP for this.

In Metamorph, the Warlock becomes an instant "KILL ME THE FRACK NOW!" by enemy warlocks and paladins because of the Demon classification the Metamorph 'lock gets.  All of the Pally's skills get to be used now (such as the "Now-Guaranteed 100% crit chance Exorcism and Turn Undead/Demons Fear), and Warlocks can just Banish the shit out of them.  It's the same argument one can have about Hunters vs. Bear/Cat/Moonkin Druids (Hunters get increased damaged, fear tactics, etc.)

[Sjofn]

I don't understand what he means by Druid tanks having to find separate gear just to tank.  There is no 'leather-tank'-only gear.  They use the same DPS gear that Cats and all three Rogue specs use.  Their mitigation comes through talents and abilities that either give them skills to defend themselves or modifies/enhances the stats on that DPS gear in order to win.  They could just as easily do the same for Warlocks!  If anything, Druids have to have two separate sets for caster DPS and healing, which the game is itemized for.   Casters need Hit and healer needs Spirit.  Since the two are interchangeable ANYWAYS because of talents and reforging, the only time you ever really see a difference is in the class gear sets, where the bonuses are unique.  

It really seems like a weak argument on GC's part.  I really hope they pull their head out of their ass on this before it goes live.

That isn't entirely true on the part of feral druids. I definitely know feral druids who have different suits for tanking and dpsing, they have slightly different wants stat-wise and gear up accordingly (if nothing else, the gems are different). Like I'm pretty sure cats don't give nearly as big a shit about mastery as bears do (which is where a lot of their mitigation ACTUALLY comes from).


EDIT: Also, who the shit is going to reforge their gear every time they switch from cat to bear? No one.

[Ingmar]

WoW has plenty of tank classes, especially with monks being added. The warlock thing was just dumb - I'd rather see a warlock healer, I think there's way more room for interesting design around something like that than around what would essentially be a bear tank with wings.

[caladein]

It's the same argument one can have about Hunters vs. Bear/Cat/Moonkin Druids (Hunters get increased damaged, fear tactics, etc.)

The only thing Hunters get against beast-type players is Scare Beast (and Beast Lore I guess).  Monster Slaying (+3% damage/crit to Beasts/Dragons/Giants) was removed with Wrath and Improved Tracking (+5% to tracked targets) with Cata.

Trolls still have Beast Slaying (+5% damage) as a racial though.

[Rokal]

WoW has plenty of tank classes, especially with monks being added. The warlock thing was just dumb - I'd rather see a warlock healer, I think there's way more room for interesting design around something like that than around what would essentially be a bear tank with wings.

With MoP there will be 5 possible tank classes and 5 possible healing classes. The majority of classes (7/11) can already do one role or the other. Most people still just play DPS anyway.

I don't understand what he means by Druid tanks having to find separate gear just to tank.  There is no 'leather-tank'-only gear.  They use the same DPS gear that Cats and all three Rogue specs use.

They have to reforge/regem to 'optimize' their gear for that role, but realistically they can swap from tanking to dps without much effort. Hell, bear tanks even use the same trinkets as cat druids for tanking. I wonder if he meant that the gear differences will be larger in MoP. Maybe, for example, druids will have 4 possible Tier sets to match their 4 specs. The stats on cat/bear sets will be similar, but you'd miss out on set bonuses if you switched roles but not gear.

[Simond]

Some more info about pet battles.

Mods, please embed this music. TIA.

[SurfD]

I don't understand what he means by Druid tanks having to find separate gear just to tank.  There is no 'leather-tank'-only gear.  They use the same DPS gear that Cats and all three Rogue specs use.  Their mitigation comes through talents and abilities that either give them skills to defend themselves or modifies/enhances the stats on that DPS gear in order to win.  They could just as easily do the same for Warlocks!  If anything, Druids have to have two separate sets for caster DPS and healing, which the game is itemized for.   Casters need Hit and healer needs Spirit.  Since the two are interchangeable ANYWAYS because of talents and reforging, the only time you ever really see a difference is in the class gear sets, where the bonuses are unique.  

It really seems like a weak argument on GC's part.  I really hope they pull their head out of their ass on this before it goes live.

That isn't entirely true on the part of feral druids. I definitely know feral druids who have different suits for tanking and dpsing, they have slightly different wants stat-wise and gear up accordingly (if nothing else, the gems are different). Like I'm pretty sure cats don't give nearly as big a shit about mastery as bears do (which is where a lot of their mitigation ACTUALLY comes from).


EDIT: Also, who the shit is going to reforge their gear every time they switch from cat to bear? No one.

Actually, Tank druids are in a very wierd spot currently (which is part of the reason they are splitting Tank / DPS ferals into seperate trees in MoP).    I can fairly easily Tank Normal Dragonsoul in a nearly full "Hybrid DPS /Tank" build on my druid.  

Unless you are doing heroics where a stupidly large healthpool is required to survive many boss fights, Agility is considered our number one stat both offensively and defensively, and once you have your 2 piece T13 bonus, Mastery Pulls ahead of Dodge.

This means that for gearing the average feral tank can get away with gemming Red = Agility, Yellow = Agi+Mastery, Blue = AGI+Hit, and reforge for mastery instead of dodge.  This makes for a setup that is also incredibly effective as cat DPS since you have essentially 0 wasted stats (no loss of dps stats reforging to dodge), and other then not being purely cat optimal (cats stat weights are Mastery=Crit=Haste, while Bears are Mastery>Crit>Haste), still allows you to cat DPS compedatively in any fight where only one tank is required without carrying around an entirely different gear set.   The only "non tank" extra gear you need would be different trinkets and a different helm, for a dps meta gem instead of the tank one.

[Fabricated]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4736886/Dev_Watercooler_-_Mists_of_Pandaria_Looting_Explained-3_27_2012#blog

Dev Watercooler:

Short version:
-SWTOR's loot system is going into LFR as far as I can tell. Basically, everyone has their own loot. Sometimes you get shit, sometimes you don't, but some dude winning the lottery doesn't mean you don't now.
-Valor is not for buying gear anymore. They're going to try making it so you can upgrade gear with it literally; bumping the item level of a specific item.
-Rather than forcing hardcore grinding for raid consumables in order to give you a reason to log in off raid nights, they're adding faction-related items that basically give you personal bonus rolls on boss kills if you feel like it.

[Paelos]

The loot system thing is a great thing. Frankly, any other implementation of that system is just begging for trouble.

The charms thing sounds odd, but could be cool. We'd have to see how the players fuck that up.

Here's where shit takes a horrific turn:

We think killing dragons and ransacking their hoard is more epic than shopping at the magic armor store, so we want to shift back toward boss kills being the primary source of epic PvE gear. In Mists of Pandaria, Valor will be used to power a new feature that allows you to increase the item level of your existing epic items. This means that each week, you can become a little more powerful, hopefully allowing you to kill that boss that has eluded you thus far. There will be a bit of a game in trying to decide when to upgrade your gear versus hoping for a new piece to drop from a raid boss, but our plan is that even heroic gear can be upgraded slightly in this way. We won’t allow you to upgrade Raid Finder gear so much that it becomes better than normal gear.

While I agree that killing bosses is fun, and getting drops is fun, this is a fucking terrible idea. They are going back to the RUG, and punishing people that don't raid successfully or luckily by not letting them get stuff that won't drop. Also, that "game" of deciding how to upgrade it not fun. That's a kick in the nuts when you upgrade 3 levels, burn all your points, then get the drop and have wasted them on something you now replaced.

[Fabricated]

It only works I think if LFR is as face-rolly as LFR is now. I've only hit one LFR so far but it's easier than the HoT 5-mans, and way easier than cata 5-mans. As DPS you just show up, DPS the right target, move for like 2-3 gimmicks, you win.

[Rokal]

While I agree that killing bosses is fun, and getting drops is fun, this is a fucking terrible idea. They are going back to the RUG, and punishing people that don't raid successfully or luckily by not letting them get stuff that won't drop. Also, that "game" of deciding how to upgrade it not fun. That's a kick in the nuts when you upgrade 3 levels, burn all your points, then get the drop and have wasted them on something you now replaced.

Isn't that how it works now? I could spent all my Valor Points on a 397 hat because RNG fucks me over every week, but a day later I might win a 397 hat while raiding that has better stats and a set bonus. All the points I spent would have gone completely to waste (and the gems/enchants).

The valor to boost ilvl system sounds... kind of grindy though. Is spending 500 VP for 1 more ilvl on your pants actually fun gameplay? I agree that killing bosses for gear is more fun than buying gear with a points currency, but the new system doesn't sound great either.

The alternative perspective is that, since you can get VP by questing and doing lots of other activities, the game now essentially has an AA system (with a low cap). I thought the AA system (Planar Attunement) in Rift would be grindy and awful, but it was actually pretty nice to have a (very very small) benefit for finishing old quest zones and stuff.

[Azazel]

While I agree that killing bosses is fun, and getting drops is fun, this is a fucking terrible idea.

[Ratman_tf]

How does we getz loot? Loldunno!

[Azazel]

That's a very accurate picture of the design process. I'm also looking forward to the removal of "Have Group, Will Travel", because I also think the game should be more worldly which equates to the meaningful experience of travel time on griffons while alt-tabbed or afk.

[Wolf]

I'll just copy-paste my response to this whole charm idea from our guild forums:

FUCK YOU GC DIAF

[apocrypha]

So the bottom line I'm seeing with this is:

1) Grinding Lucky Charms will be pretty much a requirement.
2) Gearing up offspecs will be a serious PITA.
3) Dropout rates in LFR will increase massively because nobody will give a fuck about valor.