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Topic: DC to "Reboot Everything" (Read 150849 times)
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Margalis
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Posts: 12335
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Nobody is going to buy digital comics at the asking price even if it occurred to them to try. $4 for a digital comic is outrageous. I can get digital games and apps for free or 99 cents but a scanned version of something that was going to get made anyway is $4? I had to search around a bit to find the shop myself, and while they do have a New 52 tab, anybody who doesn't know that the reboot is being called that will be greeted by a front page with comics based on the animated series, Vertigo books, old DCU books, Wildstorm books, and movie tie-ins all on the same page.
Yeah, I just went to the site and the first item is "Superman Adventures (1996 - 2002)." It's actually super confusing, they have a bunch of #1 issues but most (all?) of them are old or unrelated to the relaunch. Judging from that site DC Comics is about comics for kids that came out 10 years ago based on cartoons. |
vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Sir T
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I have to admit my biggest reaction on the previous page was "Darksied AGAIN??? FFS"
granted they probably felt they had to do him again as he was the big bad in the last season of Smallville, but come on. If you want something new create something new. Next we will have some invulnerable guy with crystal spikes growing out of him attacking everything...
(though that's not entirely fair, I liked the Death of Superman story.)
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Hic sunt dracones.
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Velorath
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Nobody is going to buy digital comics at the asking price even if it occurred to them to try. $4 for a digital comic is outrageous. I can get digital games and apps for free or 99 cents but a scanned version of something that was going to get made anyway is $4? I had to search around a bit to find the shop myself, and while they do have a New 52 tab, anybody who doesn't know that the reboot is being called that will be greeted by a front page with comics based on the animated series, Vertigo books, old DCU books, Wildstorm books, and movie tie-ins all on the same page.
Yeah, I just went to the site and the first item is "Superman Adventures (1996 - 2002)." It's actually super confusing, they have a bunch of #1 issues but most (all?) of them are old or unrelated to the relaunch. Judging from that site DC Comics is about comics for kids that came out 10 years ago based on cartoons. The funny thing is that all those comics based on the various cartoons they've done are better suited to accomplish everything this reboot was supposed to. They're cheaper (the #1 issues apparently are all available for free as well), more accessible, self-contained, have an all ages appeal, and have animated tie-ins. These are what they should be promoting. |
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Samprimary
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I'm starting to see this as akin to the end of the dotcom era when a company would announce it was pursuing a promising new direction then go out of business 3 months later.
This is my "Samprimary is the wettest fucking blanket on the subject of comics" quote repost of the year. |
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Special J
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In terms of mass-market media I've seen more about the new Spider-Man than this reboot. I can't remember seeing a single thing anywhere about the DC stuff on any general news type site.
Agreed. Even local rock radio ran for a segment with the Spiderman thing. Not a word about DC. I doubt very much the general public cares about a comic reboot, or how one 'reboots' a comic. But anything race related? You bet. I'm convinced more that in the end, DC has only managed to join Marvel in their ability to release issue #1s and #500 milestones of the same comics and will soon have the same incomprehensible mess when it comes to numbering. |
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UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064
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It's a big problem that the new direction is being run by the same old suspects.
I'm all for taking characters in new directions, but as was pointed out above, that won't happen - it will be slight variations on existing lore, or maybe the odd gender swap.
And $4 for an online comic is unreal.
WB is still happy to have DC for its sweet, sweet IP that can be mined, but if the comics keep going this way DC will end up with about 5 titles that no-one will read anyway.
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Khaldun
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Furiously
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I was thinking about ordering one of the new series, but I couldn't even find a page on the DC website to do so. Way to make it easy DC!
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Velorath
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On a side note, I don't understand the logic behind starting all these series over from #1 with a new continuity, and then still having the flagship Superman and Batman books named Action Comics and Detective Comics. It's another example of how they're too timid to fully let go of the legacy in order to appeal to new readers. A kid is going to go into a store looking for Batman comics, not Detective Comics.
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Fordel
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Some of those are very cool looking! -- I think I've said this already, but if DC REALLY wants to join the 'future' of comics or whatever, they should just let *anyone* use their characters to make their own stories. Like anyone can sign up to use a DC property for their take on it for their little webcomic or whatever. So every Mon-Wed-Fri my routine can go Penny-Arcade, Girl Genius and <blahs> Batman comic. Will there be thousands of shitty, half finished, unreadable pieces of shit? Absolutely! They'll be ignored and forgotten like the current thousands of shitty, half finished and unreadable pieces of shit that litter the internet right now. Or they'll be ignored and forgotten like the current bunch of paper books DC puts out.  Someone will do <superhero> right though, and it will be really good and fresh and we'll all read it with glee, then DC can collect a years worth of strips or whatever and put out a physical book. |
and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Ard
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I'm just going to invoke rule 34 on this and say DO NOT WANT because that's the majority of the way that concept will get used.
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Fordel
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This is different from the current paper books how again?
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Lantyssa
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Because it might be more tasteful...  |
Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Tannhauser
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On Comedy Central tonight they had ran a commercial advertising the new JL comic. Ran during the Daily Show and Colbert I think.
$4 for a digital comic? No fucking way. It feels like they are only doing a half-hearted reboot. I've actually bought a few trade paperbacks lately and that's a great way to read the stories. No DC though, I mean I got standards.
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Velorath
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So I'm going to go through the time and effort here to read through all of this week's New 52 books in alphabetical order, and type up my thoughts here as I'm reading:
Action Comics #1:
Grant Morrison writing, Rags Morales on pencils. Generally like Morrison so I'm expecting the story to be good at least. The art on the other hand looks fairly uneven with some panels looking good and others with the characters looking rough and lacking definition. No time period mentioned anywhere. Superman is wearing jeans and a t-shirt (with the S on it), rather than the costume he's wearing at the end of the first JLA issue. I'm assuming this takes place earlier.
This is a decent set-up issue, although Clark Kent is a little Peter Parker-esque in some respects (he has to run from the cops, has apparently had some trouble paying rent). He works for a paper that is a rival to the one that Lois and Jimmy work at. He's friends with Jimmy, but Lois distrusts him thinking that he tries to sabotage their stories. Lex comes across as confident and capable as well as more of a behind the scenes manipulator so far, whose plans apparently actually work. Good start, although nothing too far removed from Morrison's All Star Superman work. That's not a bad thing, but it doesn't build a case that these are stories that could only be told due to a reboot.
Animal Man #1:
I've heard nothing but good things about Jeff Lemire's Vertigo comic Sweet Tooth. Haven't read any of it yet though. First page of this is a wall of text in the form of a magazine interview with Animal Man, Buddy Baker which I promptly skip over. Alan Moore gets the benefit of the doubt when he does that sort of thing. Lemire is not quite there yet. This is a good start though. Comes across as a fairly basic setup at first. Looks like it's going to go for a straight-forward but underused setup with a superhero who is also a good husband and father, but takes a pretty dark and creepy turn at the end. I've seen Travel Foreman's art before on the Ares mini and Immortal Iron Fist. It's always been good, but there are some pretty amazing pages in here. Started out underwhelmed. Now I want to see where they go with this.
Batgirl #1:
I'd be worried about the "hey she can walk now" stuff if this wasn't written by Gail Simone. She has a lot of respect for the character and is one of DC's best writers in my opinion. Killing Joke is directly referenced in this issue and the physical and mental repercussions of that are a big focus of this book. This appears to be Barbara Gordan's first night back as Batgirl after 3 years of being in the wheelchair. No mention yet as to why she can use her legs now, but I assume they'll reveal it at some point. Another good first issue here, although again, this book could have clearly been done in the regular continuity. In fact I'd bet that Simone had written the proposal for this book before she had even heard about the reboot.
Batwing #1:
Judd Winick on this book. Liked his work on the Exiles. He lacks subtlety though anytime he tries to bring up his pet issues in a comic. Dialogue here feels a little heavy-handed, but setting a book in Africa at least is fairly unique and earns the book a few points in its favor. As a concept "Batman's African counter-part" doesn't do much to stray from fairly standard Superhero tropes, but at least it does it in an interesting setting I guess. Don't really have much to say about this one.
Detective Comics #1:
DC apparently didn't want to screw with a winning formula, so they announced the Batman and Green Lantern books wouldn't really be changing, so I won't go in depth here. If you liked the Batman books before the reboot, I assume you'll like them after. Tony Daniel has been making a bit of a name for himself lately collaborating with Morrison on Batman. He's on both writing and pencils here, very much in an Image style. Not surprising I guess as some of his early work included X-Force and Spawn back in the 90's. This issue kicks off what appears to be a solid Joker story. It's also at this point that I realize that none of these books so far have done a self-contained, single issue story. They're all set-ups for larger arcs.
Hawk and Dove #1:
Rob Liefeld on pencils. Tempted to just leave it with that, but Liefeld isn't the biggest problem with this book. At least he doesn't appear to shy away from drawing ankles anymore as they're present on both the cover and in the first pages of the interior art. Hawk is not a very likable character. Not sure I'd want to read a book where one-half of the title characters is a raging dickwad. There's a shit-ton of exposition here, making this book a poster child for what's wrong with this reboot. It's not new reader friendly in any way, shape, or form. The old Dove (Don Hall) is mentioned, and the new Dove is hanging around Deadman for part of the book suggesting that this book is following up Brightest Day (which has been mentioned as still being in continuity along with Blackest Night), but the existence and death of the new Hawk, and the death and resurrection of the Hank Hall appear to have been completely erased from continuity. The worst of both worlds for new reader friendliness and continuity for existing fans. Front runner for the first of the new line to get canceled.
Getting a little tired here so the second half (Justice League International, Men of War, OMAC, Static Shock, Stormwatch, and Swamp Thing) will come later. So far Animal Man is my favorite, Action Comics, Detective Comics, and Batgirl are all solid books, Batwing isn't great, but has some novelty, and Hawk and Dove suck ass. Not a bad ratio of good books vs. shit, but I have a feeling it won't hold up over the coming weeks.
Edit: Also somehow managed to skip over Green Arrow.
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 03:46:41 AM by Velorath »
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UnSub
Contributor
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IMO, some of those are awful as well. The kid friendly stuff (that you highlight) I'll leave alone, but Cryonic Man seems as desperate as Animal Man to grab an audience. (I commented on the Authority though, which was a good team line up for a bunch of head-kickers and actually fit the DC universe without replacing the entire JSA continuity.) Also: I really liked Judd Winick on "Barry Ween" and "Pedro and Me". So I've never got the hate for him, but then I've never gone looking at it. Man needs to get over his Asian girl fetish though. A late point: there appears to be no plan for DC on this. If you are going to scrub continuity and start again, you need a solid plan everyone adheres to. That's not the case. So how long before we get "Crisis Countdown on 52 Earths"? |
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Khaldun
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Winick's indie work is fine. But he's awful on standard-issue superhero stuff, just terrible. About as subtle as a gunshot to the head most of the time, has a sniggering nerd-adolescent fixation on sexual innuendo and a cack-handed way of introducing gay characters or HIV-positive characters, and his plotting is simultaneously convoluted and simple-minded in standard superheroic titles. Putting him on a book about an African character is like putting Charles Manson in charge of a day-care center--there is zero chance that he will understand anything about the storytelling possibilities of the setting and thus zero chance of making it a viable book with a viable character. I think it's largely an attempt to innoculate Didio and DC against the charge that they don't care about minority characters. If it makes it to six issues I will be surprised.
The Fifty-Too stuff is of course uneven--it's just artists goofing around. But DC would be in much better shape if they just said, "Ok, fuck continuity now, let's just get a bunch of new blood artists and writers and tell them to go ahead and play in the sandbox."
I did go ahead and read Action and Animal Man, because I like Morrison and Lemire. They're good, I liked some of the elements that Velorath mentioned. Animal Man reinstates what was most appealing about Morrison's take on the character (when Morrison wasn't too busy soapboxing his views on animal rights or doing postmodern metafiction).
Read Batgirl in the store. I love Simone's writing but this is a great case of where this whole reboot is already unravelling as a story-telling platform. Superman's history and personality and look are changed such that nothing that's ever "happened" to the character previously is in play, but Batgirl is still the character who was shot by the Joker, was in a wheelchair, and had been Batgirl previously for some time. This makes sense as a (controversial) story in the old continuity, but not in the new one. It's entirely about servicing the dwindling population of existing readers who can tell you that Oracle was introduced in Suicide Squad, was in Birds of Prey, and so on.
Not interested in the other books this week, wouldn't be in any continuity ever. Hawk and Dove are a failed concept and always have been. Daniel is just sort of meh, not terrible, not good.
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HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42629
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
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You know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel when you have to have a Hawk and Dove book by Liefeld. That screams of "WE NEED 1 MORE BOOK TO MAKE IT TO 52!"
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Special J
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"Man, those were the days when Liefeld broke into comics with that awesome Hawk & Dove mini. I wish I would relive those."  Get it? They're "re-booting" his career! In their big re-boot! |
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:22:23 AM by Special J »
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Khaldun
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Actually I take it back on not being interested in all of the other books of this week. I got Stormwatch mostly because I love Paul Cornell's writing (haven't read it yet), got Swamp Thing (which is very good). I'll wait and see if anybody thinks Men of War is any good, but I imagine not.
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Margalis
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Why is DC obsessed with the number 52. It seems like '52' is their big plan for everything. There are 52 weeks in a year so uh...we should have 52 books, or a book a year, or 104 issues of the new comic "half man" starring a dude that's only a torso.
Is a simple number really a high concept idea to hang your hat on?
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vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Khaldun
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It came out of launching a weekly series following the horrible "summer event" series Infinite Crisis. (Which featured a reboot of the continuity courtesy of an alternate-universe Superboy who kept punching reality while locked inside a dimensional bubble.) At first it just seemed like the weekly series, called 52, was called that for the obvious reason but then the big "surprise" of the series was the return of the DC multiverse concept (Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3, etc.) with most of the alternate Earths being the stories that had been told through DC's Elseworlds label. There were, ta-da, 52 of them (rather than an infinite number, as in the pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths set-up). Didio and the other DC editors seemed immediately bored by this new set-up, though, so it lasted about a year, if that, and no one really wrote interesting stories that took advantage of this new status quo, maybe because they knew it had no traction. But I dunno, 52 then became some kind of iconic whatever.
DC's company history of thinking about continuity is so very, very weird. The original Crisis wasn't really about a model of making money through a mega-event, it was intended to remove a limitation that DC's editors had weirdly decided was inhibiting their ability to compete with Marvel--what they decided was that the only reason Marvel was doing so well at that point was that it had a very coherent continuity, one version of all the characters, all that. So DC editorial decided that they had to dump Earth-2, Earth-3, etc. because this was too confusing. Without realizing that having a continuity where no one even knew what stories had "really happened" to determine the relationships between characters was a thousand times more confusing. I didn't have any trouble as a kid keeping track of the times that the Flash of Earth-2 and the Flash of Earth-1 had met, and how they were different. Squish them into the same Earth and I have no idea. Did he meet Barry Allen right after Barry became the Flash? Was Barry inspired by Jay Garrick directly? Did the public at large think the two were related? Did Jay Garrick sue Barry for trademark infringement? When did they first work together? and so on. Who knew? Not DC's writers or editors, who changed all that shit about every three seconds.
Ever since then, the company has been trying to shit out this huge problem that it made for itself and not succeeding. Nor have they succeeded this time. The new Batgirl #1 is an especially good example of that. Simone was apparently told to write it as "Batgirl: Year Two", right after Barbara Gordon becomes Batgirl in the new continuity, and then told at the last second to re-write it as "Batgirl: Year Six" and to write in The Killing Joke and to make Barbara have PTSD so she'd still be "disabled" and thus get all the disabled advocates off of Didio's case. They are never going to get themselves out of ridiculous convolution unless they stop that kind of crap hard and permanently.
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Velorath
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Ok, let's see how many more I can get through:
Green Arrow #1:
Standard superhero comic. Somewhat poorly done fight scene as most of the time the villains are just standing there waiting for Green Arrow to attack them. Also their gimmick is that they put videos of their crime online, and man, people are gonna go crazy if they see a video of them killing a superhero. It's the lowest possible hanging fruit of being topical.
Justice League International #1:
Let's face it, writing this book is a thankless job unless you're Giffen and DeMatties. Any other writer is just going to be compared to those two. Even taking this issue on its own merit though, it fails fairly completely as a first issue. It succeeds in getting the group together pretty quickly, the opposite of how JLA appears to be doing it, but completely sacrifices getting to know anything about the characters in the process. Breaking down the character development done in this issue, Guy Gardner thinks Booster Gold is a joke who can't lead a team, but Batman supposedly has faith in him, and the Russian hero doesn't get along with the Chinese hero. There's also some out of place subplot with protesters outside the Hall of Justice that feels like some attempt at political commentary that doesn't actually have anything to comment on. This one is a bit of a dud.
Men of War #1:
Alright, something outside of the superhero genre, that's pretty cool. Oh no, wait... some superpowered character shows up halfway through the book and some stuff happens, and through it all, the main character who we've been told is a bit of a badass doesn't really get a chance to actually do anything. It's a good example of telling rather than showing, and the end result is that this book has an interesting setup, but absolutely no payoff. There's also a back up strip that's a bit of a by-the-numbers military story, but it's not bad.
OMAC #1;
This one seems to be done in an old school, almost Silver Age style and it on that level it works. Giffen apparently is sharing writing and pencil duty with Dan Didio himself. There's definitely some Kirbyesque style to some of the artwork here, and in particular the design of the OMAC himself. Not really a deep book but it's fun, and after the last three books, a big step up in quality. I'm not really sure there's a big market for something like this though, even if it came out in a month where there weren't 50 other #1's clamoring for attention with bigger name characters.
Static Shock #1:
I want to like this book. Static is a good character, and it would be nice to see this series succeed even after Dwayne McDuffie passed away early this year. This book is really heavy on dialogue and internal monologue though, and a lot of it is very scientific in nature. Writer Scott McDaniel has apparently been a pre-med student, a chemistry major, a chemical engineering major, and has worked as an electrical engineer, and it shows in his writing. I'm not asking him to dumb it down or anything, but the pacing of this book is a bit off.
Ok, just two more to go for this week. Out of this group, OMAC was the only one that really stood out, and even that one isn't a must read.
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Khaldun
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Posts: 15157
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Re-read Swamp Thing. It's a very good book but once again, the reboot gets in the way rather than enables. In this case, it's more or less required that the Superman who lands to talk to Alec Holland is the old continuity Superman with most of the knowledge of old continuity Superman. You probably wouldn't see half of what's good in this book without a Ph.D in Swampthingology, even if it doesn't have little editorial footnotes.
Stormwatch. I love Cornell but the exposition is horrible--characters announcing their powers etc. A comic book trope but terrible storytelling. Martian Manhunter comes out and says it: he's a member of the Justice League. But he's not in the "modern lineup" they've announced, and not in the five-years ago line-up that will apparently feature in the next few issues of that title. Two weeks in and the coherency of this whole thing is bleeding out like a gangbanger who got shot in a crossfire.
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Lantyssa
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Today's ShortpackedInspired by this. You don't even need to read the article, which is long and I skipped over parts myself. The panels themselves are damning enough. This whole reboot was a terrible idea.
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Fordel
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« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 04:52:27 AM by Fordel »
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Sjofn
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Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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Awful. So awful.
HAY Y DONT WIMMINZ LIEK COMIX
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God Save the Horn Players
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Azazel
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Hm. Let's look at it from another perspective.
I'm a heterosexual guy. I like girls. I used to read comics, and I'm into games, sci-fi, fantasy, comic heroes, and boobies. I heave a pretty decent disposable income as well. So I should be all over this, right?
OH WAIT I CAN GET ALL THE PORN I WANT FREE THROUGH THE INTERNET. WITHOUT WHACKING OFF TO PICTURES OF BOOBY COMIC CHARACTERS TRACED OVER RALPH MODEL PHOTOSHOOT IMAGES.
So while I've never heard of Starfire before tonight, and so am somewhat indifferent to the butchering of her character, I'm also their ideal/target market and I don't give two shits about it. If I want to look at porn, there's the internet. If I want to look at more "respectable" sub-porn that I can leave laying around the house, I can go buy a Ralph or a FHM or whatever, and look at photos of actual models in swimsuits on the beach rather than ones drawn in the style of Rob Liefield and painted metallic orange.
So not just Y DONT WIMMINZ LIEK COMIX - WHY R NO1 BUYING COMIX NE MOR?
Except Velorath. Though I can't figure out why he's doing that to himself. Though he seems to have stopped.
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Velorath
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Yeah, I stopped subjecting myself to it after the first week of the reboot.
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Simond
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So have they announced the re-reboot event yet?
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"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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Special J
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Posts: 536
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Egad, that stuff looks like the 90s all over again.
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UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064
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So while I've never heard of Starfire before tonight, and so am somewhat indifferent to the butchering of her character,
Starfire has pretty much always been cheesecake. But it looks like with the reboot she has made the full transition to porn star. |
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Azazel
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Well, as I said, I had the teen titans TV version juxtaposed with the porn star version. Having said that, they may as well have gone with the semi-transparent bikini. Though there'd be no point in that, so she may as well be naked. All the time. Right? |
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Khaldun
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Posts: 15157
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I've still been looking at a few of the books that interest me. The new Wonder Woman was sort of interesting, and I love Cliff Chiang's art. Scott Snyder writes a great Batman, so that was also interesting.
The freakout over Catwoman #1 was interesting. I don't have a problem with a sexy Catwoman or even one that bangs Batman. They were banging in recent pre-reboot comics. The problem is the weak adolescent writing by, yeah, surprise, Judd Winick. The Red Hood/Starfire shit was way worse in that respect--Catwoman was huh-huh-huh comic-book guy deviantart weak writing, Red Hood wasn't even up to that level. I don't even know quite what they think they're doing making Starfire an amnesiac fuckdoll for two jerkface antiheroes. Christ, if they were going to go there, make her Bonnie to their Clydes, make her a tough bitch who can fry you or fuck you depending on her mood for the day, make her a meaningful fictional archetype rather than something more empty than even a porn movie can offer.
But the bigger thing, again, is that the whole thing is a managerial fuckup on an epic scale. If I were Didio's boss and I wanted DC Comics to: a) make money from its publications and b) make the intellectual property it has already maintain value and make some new intellectual property with more value, I would be flipping out over this whole thing. The company got a ton of press attention, its best chance to get new readers in, and almost without exception, they decided that the best audiences to pitch to were: a) aging manboys like me, with weird fannish concepts like Frankenstein and the Agents of Shade or Demon Knights and b) 14-year old boys who can jerk off to tumblogs full of tied-up nude women fucking gophers if that's what gets them off--or deviantart pages of Catwoman and Batman doing it until they rub their privates down to bloody nubs.
Kids who aren't looking for expensive pubescent wankfood are shit out of luck. Women are shit out of luck, unless they're the type who want the same expensive wankfood as the oddball 14-year old who doesn't know the Internet exists. People who kind of like the characters and would love a great story with them in it are shit out of luck--even the best new books are continuity-laden.
I think it's pretty clear now that not having any women besides Gail Simone involved in the relaunch was completely by design.
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