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Sir T
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Reply #175 on: July 25, 2011, 09:47:02 AM

Scans daily posted http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3147946.html?#cutid1 a hilariously sad two pages of nuSuperman. Clark goes to visit Lois but she's shacked up with some guy and then Clark mopes away while eavesdropping on them with his super hearing.

You know if they were in anyway subtle about storytelling they could set this up to actually create some kind of story conflict and draw the reader in. For instance, what if this guy was shown nonchalantly shown getting into his car after a night with Lois, and as he drives off you see Superman following him. And then the next day you hear that the man died in an accident, and Clark comforts Lois. And its left open for a while whether Superman killed him, left before the accident or followed him, saw the accident and let the guy die.

That's the kind of thing you could use to flesh out a character and hint at the dark side of superman and hint at powerful anger lying inside him. And put that question mark over his relationship with Lois. Is he deliberately being rewarded for an evil act and how does this shape Superman's moral development? That's the kind of thing that would draw a reader in.

Which of course will be the reason why it won't be done, I suppose.

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Merusk
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Reply #176 on: July 25, 2011, 09:52:53 AM

Yeah, turing the big blue boy scout into a seriously emotionally impaired individual and deviant.  THAT would go over great.   Ohhhhh, I see.

The stalker implications of listening in on Lois & date are  bad enough as it is.  No need to push it.

Tho I suppose it's to be expected from those socially maladjusted enough to conceive of such a scenario in the first place.

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Sir T
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Reply #177 on: July 25, 2011, 10:00:41 AM

Who, me?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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MuffinMan
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Reply #178 on: July 25, 2011, 10:03:05 AM

The stalker implications of listening in on Lois & date are  bad enough as it is.  No need to push it.
I remember him stalking Lois with super hearing in Superman Returns, as well. Must be the new creeper direction they are taking Supes in.

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Khaldun
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Reply #179 on: July 25, 2011, 10:21:53 AM

Everybody loved the stalker content in Superman Returns, after all. Why not go with a crowd-pleaser.

Wondering whether a character with as much power as God is going to give into his darker side is only interesting if you're gonna go all the way with it, e.g., Alan Moore's Miracleman.
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Reply #180 on: July 25, 2011, 06:06:55 PM

Are we pretending stalker-type activity is anything new for Superman here?


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Azazel
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Reply #181 on: July 25, 2011, 07:45:21 PM

Though in the current DC crossover event, which takes place in an alternate reality (some of which will survive into the 'new' DC Universe) Thomas Wayne is the Batman, Bruce Wayne was killed by the gunman, and Martha Wayne is the Joker.

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Reply #182 on: July 26, 2011, 05:40:46 AM

Earth-2 sees the creation of Owlman when Thomas Wayne Jr sees brother Bruce and mother killed and blamed his father, Thomas Wayne, for letting it happen.

Khaldun
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Reply #183 on: August 01, 2011, 05:26:34 PM

Wanna see how hilariously inept this whole thing is in terms of making everything much "clearer"?

The writers at Comics Alliance interviewed various DC editors at SDCC and here's what they came up with at the end:

"While a lot is unclear as to the exact makeup of the new DC Universe, there are quite a few things we do know. For one thing, the WildStorm characters -- including Midnighter, Apollo, Voodoo, Grifter and the crew -- have been integrated into the DCU's history, seemingly replacing the Justice Society as the reason why Earth hasn't been blown up by forty billion alien dictators before Superman's arrival.

While Stormwatch, by Paul Cornell's admission, has been working underground for decades, the concept of the gaudily-dressed superhero as public figure is relatively new, created in the past five years by Superman. As a result, the "modern" DC Universe as we know it is compressed into that five-year time period, and Executive Editor Eddie Berganza claims to have built a timeline to that effect that we won't see, at least for a while. Batman's career will extend a decent period of time before that as an urban legend in Gotham City, allowing Grant Morrison to continue with his grand Batman story -- and the myriad legacy sidekicks Batman has had -- to keep going undisturbed. Doing this restores Superman's status as the World's First Superhero in the DC Universe, even if he isn't the world's first superhuman.

As for the Justice League itself, apparently Cyborg is a founding member who will, according to Johns, later go on to join the Teen Titans, seemingly keeping the Wolfman/Perez run in continuity. Confirming that, Scott Lobdell stated that his Teen Titans title won't be the first iteration of the team in the DC Universe, but seemingly the first one featuring these characters (Red Robin, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, etc.)

Francis Manapul confirmed on Twitter that Barry Allen still died in the Crisis, which means that that story still takes place; in an interview with, well, me, Grant Morrison stated that Nix Uotan will play a major role in Multiversity, which means that Final Crisis must have occurred in some form. Exactly how these series happened without the existence of the Justice Society is unclear, and Manapul declined to comment on who the Flash was (or if there was one) during Barry's absence, continuing to leave Wally West's status in the new DC Universe completely unknown. And if Wally West never existed, then the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans would be totally different, and we're looking at a Mexican Train of falling dominoes we're unlikely to see the results of until a while into the relaunch."

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/07/29/new-52-comic-con/
Tannhauser
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Reply #184 on: August 01, 2011, 05:38:07 PM

Great, trying to figure out the new continuity gave me a tumor.
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Reply #185 on: August 01, 2011, 07:06:44 PM

I thought the whole women in DC's reboot reaction was very interesting. Out of all those new / revised titles, only three women are working at DC on them directly out of 160.

One fan's reaction to this was to dress up as the now obselete version of Batgirl, get to ComicCon and ask questions on DC panels about female representation. After several panels of this, it led to DC main guy Dan Didio getting a bit pissed off.

Quote
“Who should we have hired?” DiDio demanded.

Not a great public look.

Now DC has responded by saying it will defnitely be increasing its female representation. Go Batgirl.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

HaemishM
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Reply #186 on: August 01, 2011, 08:50:13 PM

What a goddamn clusterfuck.

Either reboot or don't. This half measure pick and choose continuity is just idiotic.

NowhereMan
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Reply #187 on: August 02, 2011, 01:47:32 AM

And rebooting 5 years into their new magic continuity? What the fuck? This isn't a DC reboot this is Age of Apocalypse lite.

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Khaldun
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Reply #188 on: August 02, 2011, 07:13:05 AM

There's so much conceptual stupid here that it boggles the mind. For example, Midnighter and Apollo of the Authority existing in the same universe as Batman and Superman. It's not just that the first two characters are meta-commentaries on the second two--if you haven't read the comic, they're basically "what if Batman and Superman were gay lovers and also what if the JLA pretty much ran the planet and what if planetary-scale threats were genuinely wide-screen crazy shit rather than some dude in a leotard robbing banks?"  In other words, the whole point of the WildStorm titles is as an alternate universe commentary on standard-issue superheroics. Putting them in the same universe is like saying, "Ok, the characters from Galaxy Quest are now part of the ongoing Star Trek universe and will play a regular part in future movies". It's not even clever mash-up fanfic, it's just straight-up stupid as a premise for continuing storytelling.
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Reply #189 on: August 02, 2011, 09:55:46 AM

So wait, there's no Justice Society whatsoever?

WHAT THE FUCK?

Khaldun
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Reply #190 on: August 02, 2011, 02:59:16 PM

Yeah, it was Stormwatch.

W
T
F

DC's line used to be that they had the characters with a rich mythology because of legacy and historical layering. Now they have, I don't know what.

No wonder their movie development is so haphazard and pointless. Batman's the only one working because an A-list director took an interest in him and decided to largely ignore whatever the company was trying to do with the character. (Not that they've done badly by Batman recently: I actually really love Grant Morrison's Batman Inc., but Jock Snyder's very old-school 'dark' work in Detective has also been fucking great. Both of which are getting fucked with by this stupidity.)
HaemishM
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Reply #191 on: August 02, 2011, 03:05:15 PM

But the entire fabric of the DC Universe is built on the Justice Society. Fuck, the number of legacy heroes are all down to the JSA. Green Lantern, the Flash, Wildcat's mentoring of many of the early JLA, hell, the goddamn Justice League wouldn't exist without the inspiration of the JSA. That's pants on head retarded. It completely removes All-Star Squadron and a whole bunch of great Roy Thomas work from the lexicon.

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Reply #192 on: August 02, 2011, 03:11:06 PM

I'm starting to see this as akin to the end of the dotcom era when a company would announce it was pursuing a promising new direction then go out of business 3 months later.

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Khaldun
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Reply #193 on: August 02, 2011, 03:16:12 PM

Pretty much. It just seems fucking insane. I'm sure there will be a few books that are interesting or fun to read but this is the worst of all worlds as a solution to creative and business failure. It doesn't get rid of continuity porn (the way the Ultimates line did for Marvel, for a while), it doesn't let smart creative teams just decide for themselves what would be a fun take on a character (as in the All-Star line), it doesn't offer a clean, fresh take on the characters that uses what it wants and ignores the rest the way that the Dini-Timm DCU cartoons did. DC's editors are saying that continuity still matters a great deal while having no idea what their new continuity is or how to explain all the characters that they own and will no doubt want to use.

And Didio's response to a perfectly predictable challenge about women writers and artists just seals the deal. The guy is really approaching Uwe Boll levels of cluelessness.
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Reply #194 on: August 15, 2011, 12:34:35 PM

Time for this again:

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Khaldun
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Reply #195 on: September 02, 2011, 04:48:41 PM

From Onion AV, a pretty fair description of Flashpoint #5's expositionary justification for the new universe:

"Barry [aka the Flash] runs through time, spending one last moment with his mom before stopping his past self from preventing her murder, and while I appreciate that Johns tried to bring some emotion to the story with Barry and his mother, the entire plotline seemed like an afterthought. When the two Barrys collide on the cosmic treadmill (God, superhero comics really are absurd), a mysterious female pulls him through the speed force to tell him the Vertigo, Wildstorm, and DC timelines must converge to face an impending threat, and then it’s the new universe."
Sir T
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Reply #196 on: September 02, 2011, 05:31:34 PM

Wasn't one of their other excuses that another version of superman (Superboy prime) punched the edge of his universe causing timequakes through reality that changed and erased stuff.

yep this tops even that in stupid.

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Khaldun
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Reply #197 on: September 02, 2011, 07:29:14 PM

They're trying to explain a company-wide reboot of a continuity that they believe is the source of all their sales issues...in terms of the old continuity.

New Justice League #1 is also just total meh. Batman and Green Lantern insulting each other for 22 pages, then Superman with armor pants shows up and is a dick. The end.

The things that make no sense about a "new" continuity are piling up so high so fast. It's supposed to be a world where superheroes first appeared "five years ago". No earlier superheroes at all, no Justice Society, nothing. But when the new books launch, just for two examples, there's going to be Red, Yellow, Blue and so on Lanterns; Dick Grayson is oging to be an adult Nightwing, there's going to be a Batgirl, and Robin will be Damian Wayne, the son of Batman and Talia al'Ghul. Wait, so Batman first appeared "five years ago" as a newly christened vigilante, adopted Dick Grayson several months later, and Dick is somehow now 19 or 20 and on his own? Batgirl, all that, came into being that fast? All the different colored Lanterns were revealed and so on that quickly?
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Reply #198 on: September 02, 2011, 09:55:30 PM

It is a bit of a mess.

There weren't consistent 'rules' or even guidelines for what should be retconned. So Barbara Gordon gets to walk again because "she's the best known Batgirl" but Damien Wayne, not Dick Grayson, is Robin. Plus all that junk about Periwinkle, Apricot and Burgandy Lanterns. And Wildstorm replacing DC's Gold and Silver Age characters.

I feel sorry for some of the project teams working on these titles - it's a mess directed from on high.

Margalis
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Reply #199 on: September 02, 2011, 10:09:23 PM

Quote
They're trying to explain a company-wide reboot of a continuity that they believe is the source of all their sales issues...in terms of the old continuity.

It's only a matter of time until some writers start referencing the old continuity and write "clever" stories that incorporate things from before this newest supposed break from continuity, which in the end will just result in doubling down on the problem.

It's like when Marvel renumbered, then some titles would include both the new and the old numbering, some switched back IIRC, and the whole thing was just a complete mess. You can't be half-hearted about this stuff. This smacks of horrible compromise. Why do they need to explain this at all? JUST RESTART.

And ffs more Flash speed force bullshit. If I was editor at DC I would write "FUCK SPEED FORCE" in blood on the wall.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Khaldun
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Reply #200 on: September 03, 2011, 06:08:16 AM

This could have been pretty good if they went like this:

Months 1-8:

Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, couple of other 'early' characters (heck, make Cyborg one if you like). Early adventures of the characters. Maybe in issue #8 Batman sees the Graysons killed and adopts Dick. None of them meet each other yet. Work on establishing versions of their respective Rogues' Galleries, their cast of supportings, the mood of their stories. Get writers who will make each of them feel extremely different from each other and yet keep each character stripped down to basics. Ditch all the crud you don't need: there never was or will be a Crazy-Quilt or Bat-Mite, an Egg-Fu, a Fisherman or Quisp, a Comet the Super-Horse or Beppo the Super-Monkey.

Months 9-18:

Introduce some more new characters with their own issue #1. Have the Justice League form and the Big 7 characters meet for the first time. Introduce Kid Flash, Aqualad, Wonder Girl. Maybe in month #18 the Teen Titans form.

Months 18-26:

Now you can begin to introduce bigger "riffs" in a more inhabited superhero universe. Have the Justice League cross over to Earth-2 for their first meeting with the Justice Society. Introduce a "magic" version of the Justice League. Suicide Squad. Mister Terrific and other characters who are inspired by the Big Seven. Populate the continuity slowly, carefully. Concentrate on clean, distinctive takes on each character driven by writers with their own vision.


Instead we're getting 52 books in a matter of months featuring characters who couldn't possibly have evolved simultaneously alongside each other, some of whose basic schticks invoke a complex, convoluted superhero continuity that's been around for decades, not a world where superheroes just appeared and where there are very few.
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Reply #201 on: September 05, 2011, 12:00:56 PM

That's one of the reasons I railed against the exclusion of the Justice Society. If nothing else, their existence can glue most of the continuity holes together - not all, but a good bit of them. This? This is a goddamn cluster fuck that makes no internal logic, not even internal superhero comic logic. 52 titles alone is just a shotgun approach. Maybe they hope people will buy ALL 52 books (at $3 a book, that's almost $200 in a shit economy) for the first month, giving them a short term boost of cash. But even if they did, there's no way all 52 books are going to sell enough to justify their continued existence. If even half break even, I'll be shocked. It's clownshoes in a narrative sense and worse, in a business sense.

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Reply #202 on: September 05, 2011, 04:31:25 PM

They're trying to explain a company-wide reboot of a continuity that they believe is the source of all their sales issues...in terms of the old continuity.

New Justice League #1 is also just total meh. Batman and Green Lantern insulting each other for 22 pages, then Superman with armor pants shows up and is a dick. The end.

The things that make no sense about a "new" continuity are piling up so high so fast. It's supposed to be a world where superheroes first appeared "five years ago". No earlier superheroes at all, no Justice Society, nothing. But when the new books launch, just for two examples, there's going to be Red, Yellow, Blue and so on Lanterns; Dick Grayson is oging to be an adult Nightwing, there's going to be a Batgirl, and Robin will be Damian Wayne, the son of Batman and Talia al'Ghul. Wait, so Batman first appeared "five years ago" as a newly christened vigilante, adopted Dick Grayson several months later, and Dick is somehow now 19 or 20 and on his own? Batgirl, all that, came into being that fast? All the different colored Lanterns were revealed and so on that quickly?

They've mentioned now that the JSA is back to being an Earth-2 thing, and I believe they said that James Robinson will be doing a JSA series.

The biggest problems I had with the Justice League #1:

- First and foremost, as the flagship book of the DCnU, they needed to knock this one out of the park and make the case as to how this revamp/reboot/whatever is going to lead to better stories.  Instead they released a book that was merely ok.  I've never really been a huge fan of Darkseid either, so setting him up as the villain of the first arc isn't winning me over.

- This arc also draws attention to the fact that they didn't clear away continuity to make things more accessible for new readers.  Instead, there's a five year block of undocumented continuity which they're already starting to fill in with this book.

- They're still writing for the trade.  Seriously, they couldn't do some single issue stories first, or at the very least, have each issue contain a story that works on its own but also adds up to a larger arc?  JL #1 isn't a very satisfying read on it's own especially for the new customers they're presumably hoping to attract.  The main conflict in this book is Green Lantern fighting a nameless minion of Darkseid, which eventually blows itself up after it accomplishes... something (the issue doesn't really make it clear, and only DC fans will recognize the Mother Box, or know how Darkseid is).  People new to the DCU here won't really get anything out of reading this issue by itself.  How is that going to encourage people to come back for the next issue?

- Personal preference, but I preferred it when these characters had a history with each other prior to forming the League.  Having everyone operate independently, never once interacting with each other prior to forming a group seems a bit off.
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Reply #203 on: September 06, 2011, 06:09:25 AM

The 5-years ago thing is just WTF DID YOU JUST DO, it really is. It means you're going to do this origin story and then what, you're going to go back to the "present" and have these guys constantly talk about "Oh, look it's Starro again, remember when we fought him for the first time three years ago?"   "Oh, yeah, Red Hood, hey Batman, wasn't he your partner Robin for like a year or so after Nightwing but before your illegitimate son that you somehow had grow to being a teenager in between having sex with Talia al'Ghul sometime in the last five years ago and now?"

You're going to have Superman running around in jeans and a T-shirt over in Action Comics, "5 years ago", building up a whole continuity of shit that he did that somehow an in-the-present Superman book is going to have to "remember". So, when Jeans Superman fights the Parasite, Armor Superman can't fight him without saying, "Back when I was Jeans Superman, I remember that you absorbed Lois Lane's breasts for several hours--well, no more of that!"   Every time Armor Superman or the 5-years-later JLA fights someone, they'll always have to keep straight: is this the first time they've fought this guy? Or are we someday going to claim that there's an untold adventure of the Justice League versus the Rainbow Raider and his RGB Death Ray and so this is actually the second time?"

And then I guarantee that sooner or later somebody's going to do the story where someone remembers the oldDCU or that multiple versions of Batman from different continuities team up to fight the MegaJoker or who knows what.

I don't know why anybody is giving them credit for having balls. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too--redo the continuity without really redoing it, keep all the characters that have built up through decades of messy, continuity-laden storytelling. If you're starting clean, there's no way that there should be guys like Red Hood and Arsenal and Batwing and the Red Lanterns and hell, even the Legion of Superheroes, who are notorious for causing continuity headaches galore. Having something like Stormwatch in the same continuity as the rest of this shit is fucking nuts, especially since they're now going to have an Earth-2 for the Justice Society. (Stormwatch makes more sense to me as a "50 years later" from the Justice Society fighting World War 2 than it does as a contemporary of a Justice League.)

Mister Terrific has three solicited issues, with three art teams in three issues. You might as well write "Mister Cancelled" in for his logo. Bunch of the other books have already had the same instability. You've got fucking hacks like JT Krul writing two titles.

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Margalis
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Reply #204 on: September 06, 2011, 07:16:09 AM

Let's get real, there aren't going to be many if any new readers for these titles. At best they might attract some recently-lapsed readers for a couple of months.

How is this supposed to attract new readers? One of the things about the Marvel Ultimate line was that it was supposed to be in supermarkets / magazine shops etc. I'm not sure how that worked out but it was at least a plan.

If I am a new reader how do I find out that DC is doing this thing and why do I care?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #205 on: September 06, 2011, 08:58:13 AM

If I am a new reader how do I find out that DC is doing this thing and why do I care?

The lead editor everyone hates* is doing (or was doing) a press blitz as this all launched.  NPR was the only station I an interview with, however, so I'd say that was a failure.   He had some convoluted logic as to why the rest of us non-comic-buyers should care and why they were doing it but it sounded half-assed and pathetic so I didn't bother remembering it.  I'm sure those into the comics scene already know it, but yeah, it doesn't make you care if you aren't already into comics.

*I can't be arsed to even look back at his name in this thread.  He was a forgettable interview, even by NPR fluff standards.

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Reply #206 on: September 06, 2011, 09:18:58 AM

In terms of mass-market media I've seen more about the new Spider-Man than this reboot. I can't remember seeing a single thing anywhere about the DC stuff on any general news type site.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #207 on: September 06, 2011, 09:21:04 AM

I've never really been a huge fan of Darkseid either, so setting him up as the villain of the first arc isn't winning me over.

/sadf

I fucking HATE Darkseid and the whole New Gods thing. I've seen one instance of him being handled well, and that was an OLD Keith Giffen Legion of Super-Heroes story arc that had a mysterious big bad evil causing all sorts of shit in the 30th century and it ended up being revealed as Darkseid after all the New Gods and Apokolips and shit was destroyed. It was awesome. Everything else with him just makes me ill. He's not an interesting character. He's like the Superman complex on steroids. Final Crisis only increased my revulsion.

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Reply #208 on: September 06, 2011, 10:27:10 AM

In terms of mass-market media I've seen more about the new Spider-Man than this reboot. I can't remember seeing a single thing anywhere about the DC stuff on any general news type site.

Agreed.  Even local rock radio ran for a segment with the Spiderman thing.  Not a word about DC.

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Reply #209 on: September 06, 2011, 12:23:43 PM

Let's get real, there aren't going to be many if any new readers for these titles. At best they might attract some recently-lapsed readers for a couple of months.

How is this supposed to attract new readers? One of the things about the Marvel Ultimate line was that it was supposed to be in supermarkets / magazine shops etc. I'm not sure how that worked out but it was at least a plan.

If I am a new reader how do I find out that DC is doing this thing and why do I care?

In theory, the idea was that making every comic available digitally on the same day as the print version would make it easier for new readers to pick up comics without having to go to comic shop.  In practice, I haven't seen any ads anywhere on the internet that would point any of this out to new readers.  I had to search around a bit to find the shop myself, and while they do have a New 52 tab, anybody who doesn't know that the reboot is being called that will be greeted by a front page with comics based on the animated series, Vertigo books, old DCU books, Wildstorm books, and movie tie-ins all on the same page.

And Justice League #1, did they give it any sort of introductory price to entice new readers?  Nope, it's $4 fucking dollars.
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