Battlefield 3

[Azazel]

Is there a meaningful difference between 5.56 and 7.62, or do the guns all have fantasy stats based on how cool the devs think the guns are like they have in most shooters? Particularly in response to M60 vs M249...

[slog]

BF3 has destructible environments and near photo-realistic (if your PC can handle it) graphics. In every other way it is a step back from BF2.

I was just going to post that I don't like BF3.  The balance is terrible, Recon is terrible, the unlock grind is out of control, and it's too hard to pick up people from the background.

Your summary is better than mine.  It's not worth buying.

[sinij]

BF3 online community is already dying, this soon after release. Being huge fan of BF series, I can't say I can recommend BF3. I heard it plays much better on a console, as a console FPS it may have legs, but as a PC title with realistic graphics gameplay is all about trench warfare, where couple maps (metro for example) are unplayable because it is not physically possible to make past well-defended chokes.

[Nightblade]

BF3 online community is already dying

Do you have actual numbers to back up this claim?

[sinij]

No numbers, but all my favorite servers  (about 10) from around release day are now perpetually empty.

[rk47]

Yeah, I'm confused. was there any risk of losing anything by logging online at all?
Oh, yeah. Fuck the main campaign, if you can only play the main campaign for this game, then you should try to sell it off or get a refund. The main campaign is just utter shit with no redeemable parts.

How would you compare it to BFBC1/2/MW1/2/3? I assumed it was pretty much more of the same?

I have mixed feelings about this game, on one hand, it's still Battlefield, yet there's some plus and minuses.
+ Weapons handling is still fantastic. Some guns have high rate of fire and is a nightmare to snipe at long range, but a monster at close combat. Different firing modes are also available. It felt authentic and offer enough variety that I tweak my setup on some maps. F2000 with 850 ROF is perfect for close fights while the balanced M16A3 will work better in open maps.
+ Vehicles Disables are now possible. No longer the tank will be fully operational at 1% armor condition. It'll start burning when struck at critical spot. 49% and it'll start burning till repairs are done. Helicopters will eat most armor alive if AA don't do their job.
+ Vehicles are still fun. Flying is easier. Tanks felt smooth and powerful. Yet vulnerable - as it should be when dealing with infantry in buildings.

- Unlocks are overblown. There's really no need to go this far. Gun attachments should have been universal. There's no excuse for me to unlock a red dot scope for the M16, only to lose it when I try a new gun like the F2000.
- Vehicles sub-systems are now unlocks. Holy shit. Flares, Zoom Optics, even guided TV missiles. It makes heli-whoring worse. A noob gunner will not outperform a veteran one..not with the basic gun.
-Main campaign is suffering from 'trying to be CoD' syndrome, it was very, VERY bad. If anyone disagrees, I guess I don't like to be hand-held in action game. Imagine Doom with a straightforward corridor. Literally, in the first mission you are running in a narrow train, with no way but forward. Dice is really bad at pacing the action, too. Often times, I took initiative and wasn't rewarded, because the door simply won't open without my AI teammates walking forward. Their primary function is solely to soak bullets since most kills are done by you. Even flying a jet traps you as a co-pilot, firing missiles and flares - think Rebel Assault.
-The Co Op missions are just good for one thing - and one thing only: Helicopter Practice. The rest pits you and your partner against 20-40 insurgents. I completed one human wave mission before deciding to call it quits. Fuck the unlocks. It wasn't fun.
- Multiplayer maps get imbalanced easily. Operation Metro is shit from the get-go. When a server adds that as map rotation, it's time to switch. Damavand Peak is also suffering from just one concentrated action. It's not very fun when ground infantry is given only two narrow passages that rocket spam will destroy anything. Or just park a van and drill it with turret. That, or risk tank shells in the dark tunnel road.
- Mobile Camper syndrome - they really amped the kill speed in this game. At long range, you won't die as easy, but at mid range and below, prepare to be blow away in seconds. I had instances where I killed 2-3 closely bunched infantry with the SCAR-H SMG, turn around, drill another with one clip. That's 4 kills in 10 seconds. And another guy spawned behind me with MG. It was comical as fuck. But that's what happens when spawn timers are so ridiculously short. If you don't wipe out a squad, don't expect them not to respawn. There's literally moments where you thought you cleared an alley, and settled down to cap the flag, only to be jumped by a fresh spawner. Not fun.

That said, the Support Class is comical when they unlock the C4 satchels. Remember that grenade takes such a LONG time to get resupplied? *Rummages through supply pack...where is that round thing...hmmm* No such thing with C4. You can spam it so quick that a jeep can be stickied with 6 C4 in matter of seconds if you have an ammo pack on the ground. Thing is, you can create passages easily by blowing wall sections and flank enemies quickly. That's one aspect that I appreciate in BF3, you can take a class and tweak your role accordingly.

The dying community can be attributed to the newcomers to the series realizing that this isn't the game for them. The speed of death is too fast, TBH. And hardcore server is a joke with the infrared Scope. I'm still waiting for Karkand + Wake Island map pack...and playing the odd round or three but yes, it was generally 'quieter' now.

[Nightblade]

No numbers, but all my favorite servers  (about 10) from around release day are now perpetually empty.

... Moving on.

- Unlocks are overblown. There's really no need to go this far. Gun attachments should have been universal. There's no excuse for me to unlock a red dot scope for the M16, only to lose it when I try a new gun like the F2000.
- Vehicles sub-systems are now unlocks. Holy shit. Flares, Zoom Optics, even guided TV missiles. It makes heli-whoring worse. A noob gunner will not outperform a veteran one..not with the basic gun.
-Main campaign is suffering from 'trying to be CoD' syndrome, it was very, VERY bad. If anyone disagrees, I guess I don't like to be hand-held in action game. Imagine Doom with a straightforward corridor. Literally, in the first mission you are running in a narrow train, with no way but forward. Dice is really bad at pacing the action, too. Often times, I took initiative and wasn't rewarded, because the door simply won't open without my AI teammates walking forward. Their primary function is solely to soak bullets since most kills are done by you. Even flying a jet traps you as a co-pilot, firing missiles and flares - think Rebel Assault.
-The Co Op missions are just good for one thing - and one thing only: Helicopter Practice. The rest pits you and your partner against 20-40 insurgents. I completed one human wave mission before deciding to call it quits. Fuck the unlocks. It wasn't fun.
- Multiplayer maps get imbalanced easily. Operation Metro is shit from the get-go. When a server adds that as map rotation, it's time to switch. Damavand Peak is also suffering from just one concentrated action. It's not very fun when ground infantry is given only two narrow passages that rocket spam will destroy anything. Or just park a van and drill it with turret. That, or risk tank shells in the dark tunnel road.
- Mobile Camper syndrome - they really amped the kill speed in this game. At long range, you won't die as easy, but at mid range and below, prepare to be blow away in seconds. I had instances where I killed 2-3 closely bunched infantry with the SCAR-H SMG, turn around, drill another with one clip. That's 4 kills in 10 seconds. And another guy spawned behind me with MG. It was comical as fuck. But that's what happens when spawn timers are so ridiculously short. If you don't wipe out a squad, don't expect them not to respawn. There's literally moments where you thought you cleared an alley, and settled down to cap the flag, only to be jumped by a fresh spawner. Not fun.

I agree with pretty much all of this, the spawn system especially. I've died three times to the same person because the game thought it was good idea to spawn me literally infront of someone at a base being captured, the baffling thing is that in certain times the game spawns me in a reasonable area.

OH and add negative accel to the list. Why does every military shooter I buy at release have to have some stupid technical problem that isnt patched until 90 days after release?

[sinij]

Any newcomer to series, if you play it on PC expect to be repeatedly shot without knowing where fire is coming from. Right now with PC version you simply can't tell what direction you are getting shot at, its very easy to hide and very easy to be deadly at a long range without sniper weapon. Many maps are outright unplayable without IR scope, just too many places to hide and shoot people running by you.

Spawn system is all around bad, I had people spawn right behind me when I am inside small room facing the door. I had flags (I play tank a lot) that I drowned in blood, easily 30+ kills, and not being able to capture because of constant re-spawn.

[sinij]

I kept thinking why isn't BF3 a good FPS title on PC. I went back to couple of my favorite titles - CS, BF2, UT3 and came to following conclusions.

In BF3:

1. It is too easy to kill someone with a weapon at any range, plus non-sniping weapons equipped with a scope or tripod are too good at long range
2. It is too difficult to spot someone unless they are moving, too many hiding spots on all maps and not enough ways to detect incoming fire

For example it is very easy to kill people in CS, you can get a headshot with AK, DE or Scout and easily 1-shot kill people. At the same time everyone is very visible, there are very few places to hide in CS and everyone with minimal map experience knows to check these hiding spots while passing by them. At the same time CS has direction of attack expectations - you don't have to check every hiding spot, because you know what direction your enemies are coming from.

BF3 with its squad and control point spawn system makes it impossible to guess location of your opponents, they literally can be anywhere at any time in any numbers. At the same time BF3 weapons are as deadly, if not more so, than CS. All of this creates situation that greatly reinforces camping - you are better of to hide and wait for enemies than try to move around and risk getting shot at from multiple hiding spots.


Specifically #2 is important point - when compared to BF2, BF3 has better graphics (harder to spot) and more hiding spots but no longer has "commander" role that can scan and point opponents. There are UAVs, but they are a) recon unlocks b) require 100% attention unlike BF2 scans.

[Azazel]

Is there any detailed feedback from people who played a lot of BC2?

[tgr]

I haven't played a lot of BC2, but as to the "you'll die lots and you won't even see where the shot came from", that's pretty much part and parcel from BC2. You get a camera of who shot you, but that's a bit late at that point.

[Nightblade]

I haven't played a lot of BC2, but as to the "you'll die lots and you won't even see where the shot came from", that's pretty much part and parcel from BC2. You get a camera of who shot you, but that's a bit late at that point.

After awhile you get used to where you're not supposed to go and how to effectively use cover. Im pretty aggressive and while there are some stupid deaths that come at random times; its by no means impossible. 

[Sheepherder]

Is there a meaningful difference between 5.56 and 7.62, or do the guns all have fantasy stats based on how cool the devs think the guns are like they have in most shooters? Particularly in response to M60 vs M249...

(In Joules)

5.56x45mm: ~1700 J (+0%) (ideal for hunting deer and sheep)
7.62x39mm: ~2050 J (+20%) (ideal for hunting elk and medium bear)
7.62x51mm: ~3500 J (+100%) (ideal for hunting moose and jeeps)

Edit: Just in case you find any in-game stats.

[sinij]

Guns are very much fantasy... they don't appreciably kick up in full auto, with exception of sniper weapons they don't bullet drop, you don't have much spread even with full-auto SMGs. Imagine every weapon handled by a terminator or you shooting laser tag weapons.

I blame consolitatis, because weapons weren't designed with mouse aiming in mind and as a result too good and too deadly without any exception.

[Nightblade]

Guns are very much fantasy... they don't appreciably kick up in full auto, with exception of sniper weapons they don't bullet drop, you don't have much spread even with full-auto SMGs. Imagine every weapon handled by a terminator or you shooting laser tag weapons.

Yeah, that's not true. A lot of LMGs have a huge amount of kick back, and all weapons have noticeable bullet drop when firing from a certain distance.

[Malakili]

Guns are very much fantasy... they don't appreciably kick up in full auto, with exception of sniper weapons they don't bullet drop, you don't have much spread even with full-auto SMGs. Imagine every weapon handled by a terminator or you shooting laser tag weapons.

I blame consolitatis, because weapons weren't designed with mouse aiming in mind and as a result too good and too deadly without any exception.

The reality is they abandoned any pretense that the game is supposed to be competitive in favor of going for an angle they felt would sell more copies.  Your problem isn't the guns, or how powerful they are, or hard to see enemies or any one single issue. your problem is that the game isn't designed to be a competitive shooter, and you like competitive shooters by the sound of it.  Good news is, Counter Strike: GO is on the way.

[Azazel]

Is there a meaningful difference between 5.56 and 7.62, or do the guns all have fantasy stats based on how cool the devs think the guns are like they have in most shooters? Particularly in response to M60 vs M249...

(In Joules)

5.56x45mm: ~1700 J (+0%) (ideal for hunting deer and sheep)
7.62x39mm: ~2050 J (+20%) (ideal for hunting elk and medium bear)
7.62x51mm: ~3500 J (+100%) (ideal for hunting moose and jeeps)

Thanks. I meant in-game, though. I'm aware of the RL differences. Though I like the jeeps in there 

[Azazel]

I haven't played a lot of BC2, but as to the "you'll die lots and you won't even see where the shot came from", that's pretty much part and parcel from BC2. You get a camera of who shot you, but that's a bit late at that point.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm interested in hearing about. There's a lot of difference between BF2 (which I loved) and BC2 (which I also loved). A lot of the criticisms seem to be coming from people who came from BF2 but skipped the BC games. Which is fair enough, but I'm wanting to work out how different it is to the game I'm probably more familiar with at this point.

Nightblade - did you play BC2 as well as BF2? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

edit - typo

[Comstar]

I like playing Conquest. But Metro is the WORST level i have ever played in Multiplayer. It's worse than those CS maps that had 2 doors and 2 corridors. The D peak map is nearly as bad, but at least you can have fun jumping out of the Helo's. Soon as both maps come up in rotation I leave the server.

[Nightblade]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm interested in hearing about. There's a lot of difference between BF2 (which I loved) and BC2 (which I also loved). A lot of the criticisms seem to be coming from people who came from MB2 but skipped the BC games. Which is fair enough, but I'm wanting to work out how different it is to the game I'm probably more familiar with at this point.

Nightblade - did you play BC2 as well as BF2? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

I played a lot of BC2, and SOME BF2 (well before they introduced the asinine unlock system.)

My feelings about BF2 are a bit hazy since it's been so long, but as far as the comparison to BC2 and BF3, I'd say there are some things BF3 does a whole lot better.
Hit detection actually works properly, reviving is balanced now and there's a lot less smoke spam. Also: Rush isn't quite as broken (You can't just destroy the mcom from your spawn with a tank anymore). Lastly, air support isn't quite as worthless. So all in all a lot of dumb things have been fixed from BC2...

Thats not to say, BF3 hasnt introduced its own crop of stupid shit that makes no sense. Operation Metro and Devmand Pea, namely the conquest iterations are unplayable, Team Deathmatch is a joke as even 5 minutes playing this mode will make you realize the game's slower mechanics do not compliment this gameplay well. I haven't seen a server for squad deathmatch as of yet but honestly; I haven't really tried to find it.

Destruction is more detailed but less varied, as I've found myself failing to destroy a wall with a slab of C4 for no reason. Even after playing for roughly 20 hours it's really hard to spot enemies in plain site and the IR scope borderlines on broken, but feels necessary when considering the passive style and play and the aforementioned camo issues.

On the bugs side of things; the game has an annoying tendency of not saving your loadouts until you've set it 4+ times, your appearance camo is never saved, hotkey bugs are rampant 3 weeks after release and if you're like me; you'll notice heavy negative mouse acceleration, which is baffling since this WASNT PRESENT IN THE BETA. (@ 1800 dpi: CM storm spawn mouse). OH and there's a joystick axis bug; so if you like using a flight stick that wont work until Dice decides to release a patch (They'll get it out once they're done felating sony I'm sure).

[Comstar]

Most amusing death/kill: I blew up m Jeep when I ran over a mine. As I'm dead I'm watching the guy who planted it then run over my mines and blows up himself.

[Azazel]

mispost - derp.

[rk47]

Is there a meaningful difference between 5.56 and 7.62, or do the guns all have fantasy stats based on how cool the devs think the guns are like they have in most shooters? Particularly in response to M60 vs M249...

(In Joules)

5.56x45mm: ~1700 J (+0%) (ideal for hunting deer and sheep)
7.62x39mm: ~2050 J (+20%) (ideal for hunting elk and medium bear)
7.62x51mm: ~3500 J (+100%) (ideal for hunting moose and jeeps)

Thanks. I meant in-game, though. I'm aware of the RL differences. Though I like the jeeps in there 

SCAR-H, PKP Pecheneg, G3 are 7.62 guns and are the highest damaging automatics in the game. The rest are nearly equal and differs in ROF, Recoil and maybe attachment variations.
And I say bullshit on 'Terminator Holding Gun' level of stability in all rifles. Try to score 25% accuracy with LMG and come back to me. With 3.4x Scope the kickback is so noticable that I just gave up shooting for the kill, relying on suppression effect as I get to cover and fight him when I'm closer. Even at close range, the recoil will fuck you up, allowing the F2000 to outmatch you easily as he scores the first 2-3 hits with a burst, while you land 2 out of 5 shots.

[sinij]

 I say bullshit on 'Terminator Holding Gun' level of stability in all rifles. Try to score 25% accuracy with LMG and come back to me. With 3.4x Scope the kickback is so noticable that I just gave up shooting for the kill, relying on suppression effect as I get to cover and fight him when I'm closer. Even at close range, the recoil will fuck you up, allowing the F2000 to outmatch you easily as he scores the first 2-3 hits with a burst, while you land 2 out of 5 shots.

I still play CS, and guns should handle like AK, where you need to aim with recoil in mind if you plan to fire more than one short burst. This is just not the case in BF3, you can spray heavy machine gun while standing and not have to worry about it pulling up or drifting _at all_ unless you go full auto. Guns are too easy to aim and shoot, as a result regardless or range and weapons involved, first to spot will almost always get a kill.

[sinij]

I looked up my stats, G36C weapon that I use most, has 13.6% accuracy with 242 kills and 63 headshots (26%). If you remove suppressive fire and other non-kill uses you probably end up at around 20% accuracy.

[caladein]

As someone who played 1942 really seriously and basically skipped everything up to BC2, 3 is pretty much pitch-perfect.  Also important to note is that Conquest Large Damavand Peak is probably my favorite map .

[Sheepherder]

Thanks. I meant in-game, though. I'm aware of the RL differences. Though I like the jeeps in there 

Yes, but do they not little bar graphs or something you could compare to in game?

[rk47]

Thanks. I meant in-game, though. I'm aware of the RL differences. Though I like the jeeps in there 

Yes, but do they not little bar graphs or something you could compare to in game?

I guess they want to make it vague. I miss those as well, but hell, everytime a new gun unlocks i give it around 10-20 kills before deciding it was good or bad.

[kildorn]

The goal with guns as far as I can tell was to let you roll with the weapon you feel you like the best. They mostly have very similar times to kill. The horrible deviation that was the SCAR-H is being fixed or has been fixed (haven't looked) to bring it more in line with the rest of the engineer carbines.

The spawn system is indeed stupid, though.

[Azazel]

Thanks. I meant in-game, though. I'm aware of the RL differences. Though I like the jeeps in there 

Yes, but do they not little bar graphs or something you could compare to in game?

Not sure, I haven't installed or played yet and probably won't have time to for 3-4 weeks due to high demands from work atm.

Just as pertinent (or more) is the fact that in BC2, lots of guns got lots of tweaks over the life of the game, but this being DICE/EA do you think that shit got updated?

[snowwy]

Is there a meaningful difference between 5.56 and 7.62, or do the guns all have fantasy stats based on how cool the devs think the guns are like they have in most shooters? Particularly in response to M60 vs M249...

(In Joules)

5.56x45mm: ~1700 J (+0%) (ideal for hunting deer and sheep)
7.62x39mm: ~2050 J (+20%) (ideal for hunting elk and medium bear)
7.62x51mm: ~3500 J (+100%) (ideal for hunting moose and jeeps)

Thanks. I meant in-game, though. I'm aware of the RL differences. Though I like the jeeps in there 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0Ag42gMGK9WrwdHRfa0JhdW9TR1E0bjBueWVSQjc0V0E&f=false&noheader=true&gid=11 Goon-made weapon tests for all your browsing needs. Everything isn't accounted for as of yet though, like reload-speed and recoil...unless my Skyrim-marathon made me miss that

[rk47]

USAS-12 Frag Rounds rears its ugly head yesterday. I kept getting destroyed at assault rifle range by this combo.
Checked Rank Unlock at 43....Guess I know what I should work on!

[kildorn]

USAS-12 Frag Rounds rears its ugly head yesterday. I kept getting destroyed at assault rifle range by this combo.
Checked Rank Unlock at 43....Guess I know what I should work on!

The auto shotguns are pretty bullshit, and FRAG rounds are total bullshit. Combined, they essentially give you the LAV's cannon.

I've been running around for laughs with the 1014 with FRAG, and it's bullshit enough that I've been harassed about it on the chat line. It's not a one shot kill beyond headshots, but it IS AE, destroys cover, suppresses the shit out of everyone, and essentially turns the shotgun into a mid range battle rifle.

I have no idea who thought it was a good idea to go "Slug rounds were some bullshit in BC2. Let's fix that by making an explosive version!"

[stu]

It's been a couple weeks since release now, and I still feel like there's too much MW in my BF3. What DICE left out though, was a couple things that I've always liked about the rival series: Option to hit X through all the logo screens upon start-up & easy exit and after a round. Coupled with BC2, I've probably spent hours sitting through EA/DICE/DOLBY logo screens ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[Malakili]

USAS-12 Frag Rounds rears its ugly head yesterday. I kept getting destroyed at assault rifle range by this combo.
Checked Rank Unlock at 43....Guess I know what I should work on!

This is exactly what I've been talking about when  get cranky about unlock systems.