Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

[Lantyssa]

I contracted lycanthropy so early in Daggerfall that I didn't care much about items.  Since I didn't know it could happen, it was a lot of fun to run with it.

[MuffinMan]

...and you'd need a horse and a wagon standing outside the dungeon so you could do loot-trips back up to clear out your inventory for more useless junk. Or was that just a dream I had? I can no longer remember, too long ago.

Well, that was the idea I think. They weren't actually waiting outside. It was more like putting your horse & cart into your pocket and not being able to take them out again while in a dungeon.

I get annoyed when people talk about how Daggerfall was the largest game world EVAR. Uhh, yea but it was almost all randomly generated.

[Ingmar]

Besides, doesn't Vanguard have it beat now? 

[Malakili]

I'll complain about it, but I'll end up buying it anyway.  As many complaints as I have with Oblivion, I still logged a lot of hours wandering around and sort of just doing what I wanted (sort of like Fallout 3 for me in this regard), and as long as there is still a similar amount of freedom to ignore the main storyline in this one, (especially combined with mods), It'll probably scratch my RPG itch better than anything else that I see coming in the next year or two.

[eldaec]

Besides, doesn't Vanguard have it beat now? 

No idea but EVE certainly does. 

[K9]

I enjoyed Morrowind back in the day and played it through to completion more than once. Oblivion was less entertaining, for a variety of reasons, although (as it has been so often stated) the stealth aspects of the game were superb.

[Kail]

You are a horribly broken person.  I remember going through random dungeons that were so freaking large it would take several play sessions and you would get dick all from them and they weren't even part of the story.  Assuming you didn't fall through the world and lose hours of play and have to start over that is.

I was incredibly pissed off when I actually found the treasure and then couldn't find my way back out of the dungeon because the map was a tangle of identical corridors and rooms and the "exit" was a texture on the wall of a hallway somewhere.

I still remember this one time that I was on an "assassinate this guy" mission and spent like two weeks of game time looking for him, searched every inch of the dungeon and couldn't find him.  Eventually, I just started trying to rest everywhere (since it won't let you if there's an enemy near) and found him that way: he'd been stuck inside a statue underwater.  For two weeks.  I had to scavenge a bow from a skeleton somwehere and shoot him to death in the hand since he couldn't get out of the statue and I couldn't reach him.

I get annoyed when people talk about how Daggerfall was the largest game world EVAR. Uhh, yea but it was almost all randomly generated.

That's kind of beside the point, I think.  There's way more" stuff" to do in Daggerfall, regardless of how it's generated.  In Morrowind, if I roll a thief, I always have to do the same thief missions in the same order every single time.  If I roll a thief in Daggerfall, the missions are randomly generated, I can do them in any city (wth a thieves guild), and I can turn down whichever ones I don't like.  There are fewer mission "types" in Daggerfall than there are in Morrowind (or Oblivion or whatever) but even if I draw the same mission in ten different cities, it'll be a slightly different experience.  Compare that to Morrowind, where I know exactly where every guard and every locked door is ahead of time because I've already done it a half dozen times.

[rattran]

People did the missions in Morrowind? I just robbed that one big ass treasury for all the best gear in the game, then did the main quest line

[Sheepherder]

So, just to be clear what you are saying is that there have always been dragons in TES?  Because that looks like what you're saying.

edit: Also, the retro Morrowind love is great.  Am I the only one who remembers all the whining about brown, ash, brown, ash and brown ash?  Or how basically mod teams had to redo every single texture and model in the game?  Or that almost no one finished the main quest and complained endlessly that Bethsoft needed to tighten up the quest system and story?

Always has been dragons, they've always been exceedingly rare, and they've always been lawful good.  Apparently they're not now, because Bethesda needs a new big bad.

I don't think I've ever actually complained about ash, and ash storms, and blight storms, and brown.  They always sort of seemed to fit together thematically to me: that this corner of the world is a miserable theocratic shithole.  Shitty brown shanties covered in mold and adobe houses seemed appropriate.

[Paelos]

People did the missions in Morrowind? I just robbed that one big ass treasury for all the best gear in the game, then did the main quest line

Oddly, that never occurred to me.

[Ingmar]

So, just to be clear what you are saying is that there have always been dragons in TES?  Because that looks like what you're saying.

edit: Also, the retro Morrowind love is great.  Am I the only one who remembers all the whining about brown, ash, brown, ash and brown ash?  Or how basically mod teams had to redo every single texture and model in the game?  Or that almost no one finished the main quest and complained endlessly that Bethsoft needed to tighten up the quest system and story?

Always has been dragons, they've always been exceedingly rare, and they've always been lawful good.  Apparently they're not now, because Bethesda needs a new big bad.

I don't think I've ever actually complained about ash, and ash storms, and blight storms, and brown.  They always sort of seemed to fit together thematically to me: that this corner of the world is a miserable theocratic shithole.  Shitty brown shanties covered in mold and adobe houses seemed appropriate.

The game was too fucking ugly in every other way to get caught up in worrying about the colors, imo.

[Sheepherder]

The only really jarring thing was the quality of the human and beast models, textures, and animations.

[WayAbvPar]

Hopefully they will unfuck the leveling system (or at least put in a few alternates) so I don't have to install 10 fucking mods to make the game playable.

I really need to go back and pick up Oblivion again (still have all the mods and such installed), but it plays a lot like Darkfall, and Darkfall is more fun.

[Ingmar]

Yeah I can only hope they've learned something by having a NOT shitty leveling system in FO3.

[Tebonas]

While the SPECIAL system converted into a fantasy setting would indeed be awesome, I suspect they just use it in Fallout because it comes with the territory. I drool at the thought, though.

[rk47]

Judging from Oblivion speech mini game...if they're going for SPECIAL once more, at least it'll be replaced with a Speech check.
But looking back at Oblivion 'Be the guildmaster of all guilds' typical design, expect more shallow experience in a big world with wasted potential. Bethesda is just not that creative in the writing dept.

Even Fallout 3 with its fun gameplay had nothing to offer in terms of main quest writing except for killing giant orcs with slo-mo attacks.

Oblivion? My name is Patrick Stewart, you're the chosen one, I've seen you in my dreams, even though you're in the jail for a crime I cannot even recall,  I trust you, here's a really special necklace, save the kingdom from satan, please.

[Paelos]

Oblivion? My name is Patrick Stewart, you're the chosen one, I've seen you in my dreams, even though you're in the jail for a crime I cannot even recall,  I trust you, here's a really special necklace, save the kingdom from satan, please.

So? Lots of good games start that way. Old man gives hero something on his way to battle evil.

EDIT: My Zelda image borked.

[cironian]

So? Lots of good games start that way. Old man gives hero something on his way to battle evil.

But there's just not very much meat to the main story past what you learn in the first hour.

I never felt any kind of special connection to the world in Oblivion, whereas in Morrowind you were slowly introduced to the whole back story that gives an actual justification why you and only you can save the world, and gives you personal reasons to care about that wasted stretch of land. Oblivion managed the amazing feat to make defeating gigantic demons from beyond reality seem dull, generic and repetitive. (To be fair, some of the side quests in Oblivion were pretty nice)

[Riggswolfe]

So? Lots of good games start that way. Old man gives hero something on his way to battle evil.

But there's just not very much meat to the main story past what you learn in the first hour.

I never felt any kind of special connection to the world in Oblivion, whereas in Morrowind you were slowly introduced to the whole back story that gives an actual justification why you and only you can save the world, and gives you personal reasons to care about that wasted stretch of land. Oblivion managed the amazing feat to make defeating gigantic demons from beyond reality seem dull, generic and repetitive. (To be fair, some of the side quests in Oblivion were pretty nice)

If you're playing these games for story you're missing the point. If you want story go to Bioware or some of the JRPGs. You play Oblivion to get turned loose in a world where you basically pick a direction and go "I think I'll go this way." In fact, my main disappointment in the game is that it had map markers this time. It was much more fun when finding something out in the middle of nowhere was a total surprise.

[Paelos]

I liked that Oblivion marked things so I could get back to them once I found them. I do not want games to mark things for me before I stumble onto them, but once I do, I don't like hoofing fedex-style back and forth.

[Riggswolfe]

I liked that Oblivion marked things so I could get back to them once I found them. I do not want games to mark things for me before I stumble onto them, but once I do, I don't like hoofing fedex-style back and forth.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I thought it had a Fallout 3 style "mark on the compass" to show there was something for you to find?

[Paelos]

I liked that Oblivion marked things so I could get back to them once I found them. I do not want games to mark things for me before I stumble onto them, but once I do, I don't like hoofing fedex-style back and forth.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I thought it had a Fallout 3 style "mark on the compass" to show there was something for you to find?

It did on the minimap yes, but you couldn't fast-travel to that point until you located it.

[koro]

I'll complain about it, but I'll end up buying it anyway.  As many complaints as I have with Oblivion, I still logged a lot of hours wandering around and sort of just doing what I wanted (sort of like Fallout 3 for me in this regard), and as long as there is still a similar amount of freedom to ignore the main storyline in this one, (especially combined with mods), It'll probably scratch my RPG itch better than anything else that I see coming in the next year or two.

I'm pretty much the same way. I loved Daggerfall (even though I was completely terrible at it, being only, what, 14 or 15 when I got it?). Morrowind is one of my favorite games of all time. I hated damn near everything about Oblivion, yet I still logged a good 300-400+ (heavily modded) hours on it. The Elder Scrolls games just rub me the right way for some reason.

As long as the "consolitis" isn't as bad as in Oblivion and they bring back at least some of the features I liked from previous games - such as the wider weapon selection from Morrowind and maybe a toned-down version of its more robust equipment layering - I'll be a happy camper. I'm one of the precious few people the leveling system doesn't bug that much, though I'd be happy to see it improved.

[Dtrain]

I had some good fun with Daggerfall, actually. The game was not without many problems, which were annoying back then, but would appear absolutely inexcusable by today's standards.

Still, my price of admission was easily returned in just one event: I made a khajiit with a lot of thief skills (a cat burglar, haha,) and got her up to about level 6 before I took a thieves guild quest - essentially find something in a dungeon and steal it. Ridiculously long dungeon crawl ensues. I spot a large chamber from a colonnade I am navigating 1 story up. In the center is a large pyramid structure with an altar up top - I can see that my quarry is an item on that altar. At the base of the pyramid, on either side of the only stairs up are a lich and a frost atronach. I'm level 6, and there's no possible way I'm sneaking past or fighting these guys, so I did what any sensible person would do: I dropped down into that pit and ran like crazy for the top of the pyramid. As I passed, both the lich and the atronach missed me with their spells - and killed each other!

But as far as Bethesda goes - they really need to find another job for their art director. I can respect that he went to school with the CEO, and that they are showing him loyalty, but at this point the guy's conspicuous lack of ability is taking a horrible binge-drinking dump on every new title they release. Skyrim will likely be no different.

[Sheepherder]

But as far as Bethesda goes - they really need to find another job for their art director. I can respect that he went to school with the CEO, and that they are showing him loyalty, but at this point the guy's conspicuous lack of ability is taking a horrible binge-drinking dump on every new title they release. Skyrim will likely be no different.

I'm not sure he's the problem.  Oblivion didn't have universally shitty art direction, some of the outlying cities and settlements were pretty cool.  For the most part it's just everything at the centre of the main quest (Imperial City, Cloud Ruler Temple, Oblivion, The Blades, The Legion) that looks like ass.

Almost universally the shitty art looks shitty because it's way too damn small to be so full of grandiose buildings and battlements which are seemingly completely out of place.  Seriously, Cloud Ruler Temple is three fucking buildings on a stone foundation, one of which is a stable, and it's supposed to be a fortress capable of holding back the assault of divine beings.  No outbuildings at all, no lesser defensive works except for the massive fucking foundation, and it's all done in a Pagoda and light wood frame style that makes no fucking sense in a freezing mountainous region

There's exactly ten main quest hellish Oblivion worlds.  Three are unique and correspond to the Kvatch, Cheydinhal, and Bruma.  The remaining seven are randomly chosen from when you use an Oblivion gate.  All cave systems in Oblivion are random, and there are exactly six interiors that can be chosen from.  If you ever wondered why Oblivion looks copypasta'd, that's why.  Of course, it's all over the top, completely non-functional even for a hellish plane of existence, almost devoid of interior decoration, and almost completely consisting of linear tunnels with monster placement at regular intervals.

Imperial City looks like shit with a dong stuck in the middle.  It gives the impression of enough population for a shitty little village living in an absolutely fucking palatial setting, yet their houses are universally cramped little boxes made of well dressed stone.  Outside the city there are almost no lower-class construction, outbuildings, or agriculture.  The entire city appears fortified to the fucking teeth with almost no defensive depth with every section of rampart linked in one massive (inaccessible) concourse linking all the towers.  There's absolutely no exterior above-grade construction or construction down the slopes of the hill it's placed on, making the entire thing very flat and dull from the player's eye.

[/essay]

[Stormwaltz]

All cave systems in Oblivion are random, and there are exactly six interiors that can be chosen from.  If you ever wondered why Oblivion looks copypasta'd, that's why.  Of course, it's all over the top, completely non-functional even for a hellish plane of existence, almost devoid of interior decoration, and almost completely consisting of linear tunnels with monster placement at regular intervals.

You just described the dungeons in Asheron's Call 1. Of course it's all modular construction, slapped down as quickly as possible. How else do you think explorer-oriented sandbox RPGs can slather the landscape with thousands of content points of interest? They have to take shortcuts, to prefab, and be willing to let some areas just be "here's a bunch of cave pieces and goblins. Have at it."

If you need everything to be hand-crafted, carefully planned, and glorious, then play a BioWare or JRPG. Without a content team the size of SWTOR's, a sandbox RPG just can't give you that.

[Sheepherder]

Except I don't want everything to be handcrafted.  Prefab sections and leveled lists are fucking fantastic in my book, and all of the scenery in Oblivion except, you know, Oblivion, is actually somewhat uniquely pieced together prefabricated sections.  Bethesda didn't even go through the :effort: of sticking a few randomly toggle-able wall, rock, or bridge sections into the seven random Oblivion worlds.

[LK]

You want Diablo III.

[Hawkbit]

Burn the heretic that doesn't. 

[Stormwaltz]

Burn the heretic that doesn't. 

/runs

[Sky]

But as far as Bethesda goes - they really need to find another job for their art director. I can respect that he went to school with the CEO, and that they are showing him loyalty, but at this point the guy's conspicuous lack of ability is taking a horrible binge-drinking dump on every new title they release. Skyrim will likely be no different.

Yes. In Daggerfall (and Arena, am I the only one that played that one?), the graphics were so primitive, we could fill in with imagination. I do have to admit, I was able to make one character in Oblivion that was decently like I wanted it to be. But the vast majority of the character (and really, even the mob) art is pretty uninspired to awful (it's bad when EQ2's art direction trumps you). These guys need to find the shoulders of giants to stand on - one of my (few) geek squee moments was seeing some of RIFT's design is pretty clearly influenced by Erol Otus.

On random dungeons - that's another place where technology seems to hurt more than help. Sure, some of the dungeons in Daggerfall were a bit generic, but a LOT of them had really cool twists to them that were entirely randomized, mostly because you could slap pieces together so much better with the more primitive art and geometry. Oblivion just seemed like endless riffs on ABCD: ACB ADBC ABCBAB, etc.

[LK]

I spent months wandering around the original Arena's environments. But this was back when it was maybe one of the only games around.

Now there's so much going on that it's difficult to spend that much time doing random shit.

[rattran]

I loved Arena, and loved Daggerfall more, but they were both buggy pieces of shit at launch, and Daggerfall at least for months afterward. Didn't stop me playing them, but buggy as all get out.

Morrowind was better, but there were still broken parts, not just the faces. And 'no cliff racers' was the first mod I installed for it.

[Paelos]

Morrowind's music was way better than Oblivions. The sound in total was better.

[Demonix]

Judging from Oblivion speech mini game...if they're going for SPECIAL once more, at least it'll be replaced with a Speech check.
But looking back at Oblivion 'Be the guildmaster of all guilds' typical design, expect more shallow experience in a big world with wasted potential. Bethesda is just not that creative in the writing dept.

Even Fallout 3 with its fun gameplay had nothing to offer in terms of main quest writing except for killing giant orcs with slo-mo attacks.

Oblivion? My name is Patrick Stewart, you're the chosen one, I've seen you in my dreams, even though you're in the jail for a crime I cannot even recall,  I trust you, here's a really special necklace, save the kingdom from satan, please.

The difference being between the two being:  I actually finished fallout 3 and new vegas, but couldn't be arsed with oblivion after hitting my 3rd oblivion gate.