Twilight: New Moon

[Abagadro]

The problem isn't with the themes, it's the ham-fisted and lame way they are conceptualized and implemented combined with the ridiculous level of devotion said drivel inspires.

[Sjofn]

The problem isn't with the themes, it's the ham-fisted and lame way they are conceptualized and implemented combined with the ridiculous level of devotion said drivel inspires.

Sure, but I do find it funny that people (not necessarily you dudes, just in general) care so much when it's women eating up the ham-fisted bullshit with a ridiculous level of devotion, what's wrong with those crazy ladies? But men? At worst, they get called nerds. Oh noes!

[pxib]

Sure, but I do find it funny that people (not necessarily you dudes, just in general) care so much when it's women eating up the ham-fisted bullshit with a ridiculous level of devotion, what's wrong with those crazy ladies? But men? At worst, they get called nerds. Oh noes!

But but... she's having fantasies about the beautiful, wealthy, eternally young scion to one of the most powerful families on earth who promises to turn her into a superhero as soon as they're married. How can I possibly live up to that? 

[lamaros]

You can even things up by not being a psychopath stalker with repressed homicidal urges? I think chicks dig that?

[NowhereMan]

It shows you care!

Also I'm pretty sure we'd be bashing people who thought the Da Vinci Code was a literary masterpeice, fuck Haemish stuck them in the exact same category. They're horrible books but Twilight fans have elevated it to the status of art, so we mock them. If people went around claiming the James Bond films were cinematic masterpieces that really the intricacies of the Cold War they would be mocked just as much.

[Margalis]

I've never met a real life Twilight Fan, let alone a gaggle of obsessive ones who claim it's the best thing ever. Just sayin'.

[NowhereMan]

But I've seen them on the interwebs! Also yeah, I guess it's really closer to the Da Vinci Code. It's shitty popular literature some people think is really good and we mock because it makes us feel better than them.

[Velorath]

I've never met a real life Twilight Fan, let alone a gaggle of obsessive ones who claim it's the best thing ever. Just sayin'.

If you were at your local theater for the midnight opening you could have probably met hundreds of them.

[apocrypha]

I've never met a real life Twilight Fan, let alone a gaggle of obsessive ones who claim it's the best thing ever. Just sayin'.

My girlfriend works in an open-plan office with something like 8-10 such people. They're all women, they apparently talk about it endlessly and some of them are actually fairly intelligent and mature. Them being all in the same office has clearly given confidence to those who would otherwise have kept as their dirty little secret and come out into the open. It's driving my gf round the bend.

I think the need for escapist fantasies is stronger in society than many realise. And yes, I am WELL aware that such needs are not gender-restricted, especially on a forum dedicated to gaming 

[Big Gulp]

My girlfriend works in an open-plan office with something like 8-10 such people. They're all women, they apparently talk about it endlessly and some of them are actually fairly intelligent and mature. Them being all in the same office has clearly given confidence to those who would otherwise have kept as their dirty little secret and come out into the open. It's driving my gf round the bend.

It was all every woman I worked on last week could talk about.  It only served to heighten my already powerful misogyny.   

[Ironwood]

You know, if we didn't know you were a tatoo artist, that line would be creepy as all fuck.

[schild]

I think the need for escapist fantasies is stronger in society than many realise. And yes, I am WELL aware that such needs are not gender-restricted, especially on a forum dedicated to gaming.

Perhaps, but I think I'd prefer all the fans of Twilight be big Halo nerds instead. It'd be less annoying at least.

[Stewie]

I gotta say that Im not really familiar with Twilight at all other than what I have heard her and that it is really popular.
That being said here is a Twilight Intervention that I found somewhat amusing.

[Mrbloodworth]

[Sheepherder]

Perhaps, but I think I'd prefer all the fans of Twilight be big Halo nerds instead. It'd be less annoying at least.

Unless they got onto a "artistic significance of the Cortana interludes" tangent, in which case any sane person would be morally compelled to shank them in the brain.

[LK]

I'm happy Twilight was made and is reaching such popularity. All the better to mock with biting humor like the above. It helps there is no one in my life screaming about it though.

It IS funny to read about a lesbian friend of mine wishing her girlfriend was more like Edward / Jacob.

[Raging Turtle]

Piers Anthony was creepier.

[Morat20]

Piers Anthony was creepier.

Oh damn, was he ever. He had a really freaky fascination with underage sex.

Of course Heinlein threw in incest and group marriages, every one of Chalker's books had the male character ending up with tits, and of course Goodkind writes Objectivist/BDSM porn.

[Sheepherder]

Of course Heinlein threw in incest and group marriages, every one of Chalker's books had the male character ending up with tits, and of course Goodkind writes Objectivist/BDSM porn.

Robert Jordan manages all of those except incest (he implied he was heading that direction though), he still isn't as fucking weird as Meyer.  Her book is even terrible thematically, it's about how a girl needs this guy in order to justify her existence, couched in terms of "true love", the end.  Even motherfucking Ayn Rand is better than that.

[Riggswolfe]

Of course Heinlein threw in incest and group marriages, every one of Chalker's books had the male character ending up with tits, and of course Goodkind writes Objectivist/BDSM porn.

You know the weird thing is that Heinlein made an interesting case for some of his perversions in his novels. Really it boiled down to "consenting adults should be free to fuck each other regardless of family ties and/or marriage arrangements."  Though the dude who had sex with his female clones almost did me in.

As for Goodkind, I don't think you've ever read porn if you consider his stuff porn. Now..if you'd mentioned Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty stuff...

And finally, I want to know what version of Bond Margalis is seeing where he sleeps with women and then kills them later. Bond is a misogynist asshole but Margalis makes him sound like a serial killer or something.

[UnSub]

Also, I would totally be called a dwarf. I mean honestly, who doesn't like dwarves?

Elves?

[Sheepherder]

And finally, I want to know what version of Bond Margalis is seeing where he sleeps with women and then kills them later. Bond is a misogynist asshole but Margalis makes him sound like a serial killer or something.

Except it's irrelevant.  Bond is an individual rendered scarred and callous by betrayal who places no value on his life, your basic antihero story, except it doesn't conclude nicely.

Twilight is pure author self-insertion into a stillborn plot.

[Margalis]

And finally, I want to know what version of Bond Margalis is seeing where he sleeps with women and then kills them later. Bond is a misogynist asshole but Margalis makes him sound like a serial killer or something.

Whenever Bond sleeps with the big bad's female cohort she dies. We know that, Bond knows that. The fact that the writers always find some contrived way to kill them off in a fashion that makes Bond not directly culpable is just a way to keep him presentable and it gets increasingly lame with each passing movie. Having Bond strangle them immediately after sex would probably be just slightly too overt, so instead it's the tired old Bond has sex with them in the bed of their boss with ten henchmen spectating then expresses feigned mild surprise when they turn up dead 7 minutes later. Whether or not that is serial killing or serial making-death-imminent is academic.

Except it's irrelevant.  Bond is an individual rendered scarred and callous by betrayal who places no value on his life, your basic antihero story, except it doesn't conclude nicely.

Twilight is pure author self-insertion into a stillborn plot.

And this right here is exactly what I'm talking about. Bond is total  junk and transparent male power fantasy of the highest order. To pretend that Twilight is lame while Bond has some deep-seeded meaning is daft. It's fucking James Bond, the series where a guy with a metal jaw fights on the moon with a Chinaman who throws a deadly hat while negroes fire off laser guns that Denise Richards invented.

I'm sure Twilight fans would tell you that sparkly ultra-douche is a 500 year old boy-man who can't love as his heart has been scarred by centuries of failed relationships or some such shit.

[Velorath]

Stillborn plot? Have you seen A View to Kill?

I guess making fun of people for liking terrible fiction isn't so fun when you're on the receiving end.

I think most Bond fans will acknowledge that there have been a lot of bad Bond movies.

[Margalis]

I edited those sentences out, but I'm glad you quoted them.

I think most Bond fans will acknowledge that there have been a lot of bad Bond movies.

And I'm sure once there are 27 Twilight movies Twilight fans will acknowledge that the one with nazi horse breeding vampire wasn't up to par. Then I'm sure we'll all congratulate them for having such discriminating tastes.

Edit:

Fun fact: The best Bond movie is In Like Flint.

[IainC]

The other thing about Bond, is that no-one sane is really trying to make the case that it's somehow profound and important. Bond can be mind-meltingly dumb at points but almost no-one is treating it as anything more than a very long-running popcorn franchise. Most people I know who go to watch Bond movies go and see the film, maybe buy the blu-ray and then pretty much forget about the oeuvre until the next one comes out. The Dan Brown parallel that was brought up is spot on in my opinion, it's not a 'boys' stuff vs girls' stuff' mockfest, it's a 'stupid crap that people take far too seriously' mockfest, Twilight fans have more in common with Birthers and Truthers than Bond fans or people who went to see Titanic over and over again.

[Margalis]

Where's the evidence that Twilight fans take it super seriously, other than the protestations of some 30-something dudes with a creepy amount of knowledge about a series they claim to despise?

I've never seen anyone claim that Twilight is "profound and important." If you go to Amazon and look at 5--star reviews of the first book this is what you see. These are in order, I'm not cherry-picking:

This book is a guilty pleasure! The negative reviewers are, I am sad to say, correct about the downfalls of the story..

The biggest downfall to this series is not that it is jam-packed with cliches, or that Bella is completely hopeless. The biggest downfall has got to be the marketing--the fact that every one of you disappointed readers had gotten your hopes up for 'the next big thing,' only to find that it wasn't to your liking.

Edward Cullen, the vampire, is perfect - and we are reminded of exactly how perfect nearly too often. While reading the book, I found myself frustrated with the never-ending descriptions of his perfect body, perfect hair, model-like looks (maybe I was jealous?

I loved this book and can say I was obsessed with it for months after I read it. I encourage everyone looking for a great modern romance to try this one out.

This sounds less like a creepy cult of insane devotees akin to idiotic political movements and more like some people read a book and enjoyed it. OH NOES!

What's so sinister and disturbing? A lot of people really like it but I don't see a whole lot of "THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT WORK OF ALL TIME" hyperbole.

Edit:

Stop making me defend Twilight. Yes it sucks. But most genre fiction is escapist fantasy that appeals to a certain demographic in ways outside observers can't connect with. Our book thread here is 95% about books where dudes shoot space lasers at each other or a band of heroes including the lovable irascible dwarf defeats the evil dark emperor.

Birthers and truthers? What? Step away from the politics! Oh no, some people like bodice ripping vampire soft porn! That's the same as thinking 9/11 was an inside job! The demographic for Twilight is pretty much the exact same demographic as the Titanic audience and they like it for the same basic reasons. Birthers and truthers? Come on.

[IainC]

I dunno how you can claim that there somehow isn't a gigantic groundswell of overwrought sentiment about this series, because there very clearly is. You've been comparing this to male escapist fantasies when that isn't really accurate. It is a female escapist fantasy but there are a lot of people who are building this stuff up into some kind of gift from heaven in a way that simply doesn't happen routinely. I compared them to birthers and truthers because they have the same mentality with regards to evangelising their truth and bunkering against hostile points of view - more so than with pretty much any other pop-fad in recent times. I know several women who went and saw Titanic every day for the first couple of weeks that it was released. When discussing why I didn't like the movie I got shrugs and 'oh well, it's not really for you', I told the same women that I didn't like Twilight and I was lucky to escape with all my limbs.

I don't know, perhaps it's the magnifying effect of the internet again but I'm seeing a lot more 'my life has been changed' type stuff about Twilight than I remember seeing from any other shitty genre fiction in a long while.

Anyhow, want to know what's worse than Twilight?

Twilight fan-fic.

Want to know what's worse than regular Twilight fanfic?

Tila Tequila Twilight fanfic written by the lady herself.

[Abagadro]

Let me know when legions of men start referring to themselves as part of Team Blofeld.

[Morat20]

Let me know when legions of men start referring to themselves as part of Team Blofeld.

And now I have a guild name. Thanks!

[K9]

The to 20 Unfortunate Lessons Girls Learn From Twilight:New Moon

   1. If a boy is aloof, stand-offish, ignores you or is just plain rude, it is because he is secretly in love with you — and you are the point of his existence.

   2. Secrets are good — especially life-threatening ones.

   3. It’s OK for a potential romantic interest to be dimwitted, violent and vengeful — as long as he has great abs.

   4. If a boy tells you to stay away from him because he is dangerous and may even kill you, he must be the love of your life. You should stay with him since he will keep you safe forever.

   5. If a boy leaves you, especially suddenly (while telling you he will never see you again), it is because he loves you so much he will suffer just to keep you safe.

   6. When a boy leaves you, going into shock, losing all your friends and enduring night terrors are completely acceptable occurrences — as long as you keep your grades up.

   7. It is extremely romantic to put yourself in dangerous situations in order to see your ex-boyfriend again. It’s even more romantic to remember the sound of his voice when he yelled at you.

   8. Boys who leave you always come back.

   9. Because they come back, you should hold out, waiting for them for months, even when completely acceptable and less-abusive alternative males present themselves.

  10. Even though you have no intention of dating an alternative male who expresses interest in you, it is fine to string the young man along for months. Also, you should use him to fix things for you. Maybe he’ll even buy you something.

  11. You should use said male to fix things because girls are incapable of anything mechanical or technical.

  12. Lying to your parents is fine. Lying to your parents while you run away to save your suicidal boyfriend is an extremely good idea that shows your strength and maturity. Also, it is what you must do.

  13. Car theft in the service of love is acceptable.

  14. If the boy you are in love with causes you (even indirectly) to be so badly beaten you end up in the hospital, you should tell the doctors and your family that you “fell down the steps” because you are such a silly, clumsy girl. That false explanation always works well for abused women.

  15. Men can be changed for the better if you sacrifice everything you are and devote yourself to their need for change.

  16. Young women should make no effort to improve their social skills or emotional state. Instead, they should seek out potential mates that share their morose deficiencies and emotional illnesses.

  17. Girls shouldn’t always read a book series just because everyone else has.

  18. When writing a book series, it’s acceptable to lift seminal source material and bastardize it with tired, overwrought teenage angst.

  19. When making or watching a major feature film, you should gleefully embrace the 20 minutes of plot it provides in between extended segments of vacant-eyed silence and self-indulgent, moaning banter.

  20. Vampires — once among the great villains of literature and motion pictures — are no longer scary. In fact, they’re every bit as whiny, self-absorbed and impotent as any human being.

[Sheepherder]

And this right here is exactly what I'm talking about. Bond is total  junk and transparent male power fantasy of the highest order. To pretend that Twilight is lame while Bond has some deep-seeded meaning is daft.

It doesn't have meaning, it has most of the components of a story though, and that's enough for most popcorn movies.  Twilight is a romance / vampire genre story with absolutely no conflict at all, starring Mormons, without the gestalt of a vampire story.  You could count the boyfriend choosing as conflict, if it wasn't made abundantly obvious at all times that the protagonist wants vampire dude.  Yeah, that's completely comparable to Bond.

Incidentally, all of my sisters think this is shit.

[stray]

Mormons are the perfect model for Vampires though. I believe they keep harems, posses some form of mind control, sit outside people's windows and beckon them, offer eternal life, etc..

edit: Ugh.. I pull that awful shit above on many girls. Especially the "stay away, I might kill you" bit.

[Velorath]

Where's the evidence that Twilight fans take it super seriously, other than the protestations of some 30-something dudes with a creepy amount of knowledge about a series they claim to despise?

I've never seen anyone claim that Twilight is "profound and important." If you go to Amazon and look at 5--star reviews of the first book this is what you see. These are in order, I'm not cherry-picking:

You didn't cherry-pick the reviews but you certainly cherry-picked the parts of them you quoted.

Anyway, we aren't talking about the fucking Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster here.  I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're looking for (the fact that it set the record for midnight showing box office grosses and opening day box office grosses should be some sign), but while you're crawling the Internet trying to prove their existence, most of us have actually seen them.

[stray]

If I was to judge by people I know, I don't think they take it seriously. They're just sort of obliviously fanatical. I know a few who are responsible for those "midnight viewings", and even think they need to see it a second (or third!) time, and are so clueless that they just want to pick up and make me see it too.. "cause I'll love it."

I sort of see it in the same way that I view the Road Warrior or CCR. I've yet to meet one woman who liked them. Even though I think they'll "just love it". Basically Twilight and Road Warrior are both on the extreme ends of female and male interest, and neither is gonna give a shit about the other.