Patch 3.3

[Merusk]

Like Shrike said, it's more about the player than it was the gear.   He wasn't using his tanking CDs or Anti Magic Shell, period.  Those two pulls pretty much require them, particularly when the healer says "hey I'm barely geared for here, take it easy.  I don't care what the LFD tool says my gear level is."   Not interrupting the hellfire or fireballs.. also fail.

It's like the old huntard problem.  Sure, there were plenty of good hunters out there who knew how to use their bag of tools and stand out of pathing mobs way or not use multishot on CC pulls.  However, the sheer number of idiots meant that you didn't take a hunter in a group because they were more likely to get you killed than not.

[Kail]

<-Noob tank, but wouldn't a dual wielding DK have similar or better defense than a straight up 2H DK?  Unless the parry reduction on the swing timer is accounting for huge amounts of enemy DPS or something.  I thought the big problem was them keeping aggro by having lower DPS, not them taking hits.  It's not like a dual wielding warrior or anything, where he's sacrificing the extra armor from a shield.

[Sheepherder]

<-Noob tank, but wouldn't a dual wielding DK have similar or better defense than a straight up 2H DK?  Unless the parry reduction on the swing timer is accounting for huge amounts of enemy DPS or something.  I thought the big problem was them keeping aggro by having lower DPS, not them taking hits.  It's not like a dual wielding warrior or anything, where he's sacrificing the extra armor from a shield.

When you're healing you can tell when someone with low expertise is attacking at a high rate from the front arc, because the tank will start losing big chunks of health at completely irregular intervals.

[Lantyssa]

Pretend I'm a complete noob.  What's the difference between a dual wielding and a two-hander if everything else is the same?

[Lakov_Sanite]

I just did the worst pit of saron with a pally tank who while he had 43k health was a cimplete fucking moron who didn't seem to have consecrate on his bars.  After the second wipe I called him out on it and then he said we needed to learn to play and quit the group...


seriously?! I'm sorry it's my fault all those untanked adds raped my face when i tried to heal...fucking prima-donna tanks.

[Sheepherder]

A one hander has a speed of between 1.5 and 2.6 on average.  Two handers tend to gravitate towards 3.6.  faster attacks, more chances to be parried per unit of time, more chances for the mob to get the parry haste proc (40% haste for one attack), more enemy burst.  Undergeared melee classes with parry-able AoE attacks are possibly my worst fucking nightmare for tank healing when they attack from the front.

[Ironwood]

I just did the worst pit of saron with a pally tank who while he had 43k health was a cimplete fucking moron who didn't seem to have consecrate on his bars.  After the second wipe I called him out on it and then he said we needed to learn to play and quit the group...


seriously?! I'm sorry it's my fault all those untanked adds raped my face when i tried to heal...fucking prima-donna tanks.

Once again, the new instances are pulling all the bad tanks out of the woodwork.

Tank with excellent gear and good talents tried HoR last night.  He basically let us all die.  I have no idea how someone gets to that level without knowing fuck all.  No Stuns, No shield bash, no taunt, no shockwave.

Seriously.  I went back and checked the logs.  The guy was basically a devastate merchant who was fuck all use.  Didn't even target THE HEALER first.  Oh and Mr DPS warrior who was also there ?  Wanna pummel every once in a while, you utter fuck ?

I'm a GOOD warrior.  I'm a GREAT tank.  I'm sometimes shamed for my class.

Assholes.

[March]

Pretend I'm a complete noob.  What's the difference between a dual wielding and a two-hander if everything else is the same?

Nothing, in theory; as Healers, we get a "feel" for the tank pretty quickly, and it simply seems that DW DK's are squishier than they ought to be... probably a function of the player playing a role they don't really want to play.

(Ok, theoretically a non-expertise-capped DW DK will get parried more than a 2H (or 1H) tank - which initiates the Haste effect on the NPC... but this really ought not be a serious concern in the Non-ICC heroics).

[Rendakor]

After watching two DWing Dks with decent amounts of health (41k) and def (465) go Splatter in very few hits from the mobs in PoS, I'm inclined to agree.

Um, 465 Defense is 70 points below the defense cap for heroics. No amount of health will save you when you get crit like that.

[March]

New phenomenon: Paris Hilton goes slumming.

Pretty much what JWIV mentioned previously... get a group with one (or two) guys in 5000+ gear score equip telling everyone in the group that they suck and that they [5k hero] really wouldn't even be here except <insert ICC boss here> won't drop the damn trinket they need, so they are slumming badges with the rest of us lowly shits.

These geniuses then proceed to get group members killed through various dickhead plays: Tank out-runs party, dies surrounded by an entire wing of a dungeon; Tank _never_ stops and dies when healer finally squeezes the last minuscule heal left in the arsenal after being in combat for 11 minutes; DPS does what we have already covered previously.

Don't get me wrong, as a decently geared healer (for heroics) I love when the uber tank drives us through DTK in 8 minutes... as long as he follows a few basic rules of the road - the absolute barest minimum rule is, and always will be: you can only go as far and as fast as the healer's mana bar can last (or reach).

Again, all I'm looking for here is a little awareness... let's go as fast as the group can handle... but given that we just met 4 seconds ago, maybe a little ramp-up period is in order?

What bothers me the most, however, is the weird sense of entitlement...

True story: LFD drops us into AK; 5k hero immediately announces that he has to go eat dinner and should be back in 10-15 minutes; Huh?  5k Buddy decides to pull entire first room of spiders and boss with newish 80's for DPS.  I'm not sure how that fight ended because the teleport out button seems to work in combat - as does leave group.  I felt a twinge of regret for the newbie 80's but they just didn't recognize the fail fast enough.

On a bright note... hat tip to a rogue named Tau (forget the server) who was extremely well geared, patient with a new DK that probably should not have qualified for Forge, and literally did carry the group through a couple of fights making them absurdly easy... and didn't bail when the tank goofed up the specter pulls before the 2nd boss (twice).

Fake edit: wait, shouldn't this be in the Bad Groups thread?  They are starting to collide.

[Lantyssa]

A one hander has a speed of between 1.5 and 2.6 on average.  Two handers tend to gravitate towards 3.6.  faster attacks, more chances to be parried per unit of time, more chances for the mob to get the parry haste proc (40% haste for one attack), more enemy burst.  Undergeared melee classes with parry-able AoE attacks are possibly my worst fucking nightmare for tank healing when they attack from the front.

(Ok, theoretically a non-expertise-capped DW DK will get parried more than a 2H (or 1H) tank - which initiates the Haste effect on the NPC... but this really ought not be a serious concern in the Non-ICC heroics).

What is this haste proc you two mentioned?  I have never heard of it.

[proudft]

It's a hidden game mechanic that they never tell you about.  You can get more gory details on wowwiki, but basically any time anyone parries (player or monster), the next swing comes 40% faster than it normally would.  It's turned off for some bosses, but not all.   So if, say, a rogue is up front poking away and gets parried, the the tank is going to get swung at more often.   Or if a tank has a faster weapon, he is going to hurt himself more, etc.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Parry

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not sure the slumming theory holds water. I know a lot of raiders who have little cash for repair bills as it is and aren't looking to make any more bills. Plus most of the people want to get their 2 badges asap and then get the hell out.  I really think there are just a lot of bad, bad players out there who get carried into gear or have run dungeons so often they can get pretty nice offspec gear like tanking stuff and then proceed to try and tank with little to no experience in it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

oh here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darrowmere&cn=Gareck&gn=Smiles+for+Miles 

is the epic paladin who couldn't be bothered to consecrate on add fights. I really, REALLY like that the only raids he's done are onyxia and toc10 and nothing else.  Further proof that it's really easy to pick up good gear.

[WindupAtheist]

I landed in an absolutely stellar random group the other night. Nobody ever got aggro off the DK tank, the Druid healer was so good and so geared that he was telling us to go ahead and stand in things, and all of us DPS were actually awake and doing our jobs. It went so well that we knocked out like four heroics in a row and nobody died once the entire time.

oh here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darrowmere&cn=Gareck&gn=Smiles+for+Miles  

is the epic paladin who couldn't be bothered to consecrate on add fights. I really, REALLY like that the only raids he's done are onyxia and toc10 and nothing else.  Further proof that it's really easy to pick up good gear.

I don't know enough about Prot, but his Ret spec is retarded. He's got 5/5 Anticipation and 1/5 Toughness. What the hell? Venture Co. Libram of Retribution? That's a level 74 blue. LOL.

[Simond]

To be fair, those Venture Bay relics are frequently best in slot until you can save up enough badges for a purple one simply because Blizzard doesn't really itemise for that slot for most classes that need them.

[Lantyssa]

It's a hidden game mechanic that they never tell you about.  You can get more gory details on wowwiki, but basically any time anyone parries (player or monster), the next swing comes 40% faster than it normally would.  It's turned off for some bosses, but not all.   So if, say, a rogue is up front poking away and gets parried, the the tank is going to get swung at more often.   Or if a tank has a faster weapon, he is going to hurt himself more, etc.

That's... stupid.  You're already penalized for being blocked and not doing damage.

If anything, it should be the reverse, where parrying causes the next attack to come more slowly.  Then you can choose whether you want to slow the rate damage comes at you by being parried more but doing less damage, or you can choose to do more damage (and aggro) but likewise suffer more yourself.

If that's the case you would want one specific type of weapon instead of allowing for people to pick from a variety...  In a DIKU...  Where gear means everything...  Gah.  So stupid.

[Ingmar]

To be fair I think it also works in your favor when you parry - that's why parry has a higher rate of diminishing returns, because parrying is better than dodging.

It also provides me a convenient excuse to yell at melee DPS, who need lots of yelling at just because.

[Lantyssa]

It does, but then it still favors a slower weapon because then you see more benefit to the reduction.  Your choice is slow or slow, if you worry about the mechanics.  There should be a trade-off to make you want to choose.  Plus it's not documented.  It's terrible design.

[K9]

I'm not sure the slumming theory holds water. I know a lot of raiders who have little cash for repair bills as it is and aren't looking to make any more bills. Plus most of the people want to get their 2 badges asap and then get the hell out.  I really think there are just a lot of bad, bad players out there who get carried into gear or have run dungeons so often they can get pretty nice offspec gear like tanking stuff and then proceed to try and tank with little to no experience in it.

I'll second this. There are at least four people in my guild with 5K+ gearscores who I will flat-out ignore and refuse to group with, and usually only end up with in 25-mans where we are usually tight for tanks and healers (one is a tank, two are healers). They are fucking terrible and have been carried through every tier of content, but as a casual guild we don't kick for poor play, we try to improve it; however there are some people who just will not improve.

Gear is an indicator of potential, not skill. That said, cursory examinations for gems and enchants is usually a better indicator of ability than the raw gear.

[Ingmar]

It does, but then it still favors a slower weapon because then you see more benefit to the reduction.  Your choice is slow or slow, if you worry about the mechanics.  There should be a trade-off to make you want to choose.  Plus it's not documented.  It's terrible design.

There are classes that want fast weapons for mechanical reasons, though - warrior tanks traditionally want fast weapons because that lets them deliver more heroic strikes and the threat modifier on HS is a static value; combat rogues want fast offhands, etc. The parry thing is fairly low on the list of factors that go into what speed weapon you want to use, and doesn't factor in at all unless you're a tank. Honestly the parry-gib effect on a dual wielding DK (who wants slow weapons for a lot more reasons than just parryhaste, all their instant swings prefer slower weapons anyway) is really not that extreme, especially because on the bosses that hit really hard they have the effect turned off. The main effect of it is to make melee dps move out of the monster's front arc.

[Shrike]

Like Ingmar said, the parry-gib effect isn't THAT big of a problem, but you can't ignore it completely, either.

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

[Arrrgh]

Like Ingmar said, the parry-gib effect isn't THAT big of a problem, but you can't ignore it completely, either.

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

The high damage two handers are the same ones warriors and ret pallies want. No matter which weapon type a DK rolls on they're screwing someone else out of a possible upgrade. It's not like there's a "tanking" two hander.

[Mattemeo]

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

I'm guessing you edited out the screams of PIPTY DEEKAYPEE MINAS in an attempt to make it less obvious you're a self-serving class bigot who can't stand other people playing the game any other way than your way. If you really feel so dirty after playing your DK, fucking delete it instead of poisoning the water-hole even more.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Psycho.

[Rendakor]

The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

Ok, this right here is not true. While there are no tanking 2hs, there are plenty of tanking 1hs; and now that there is a 1h def/sta runeforge, you can gain much higher tanking stats (at the expense of threat, true) by dual wielding.

This effect makes hitting the defense cap much easier, which in turn attracts both a lot of fresh 80s and off-spec tanks; that is where the problem arises.

[Shrike]

The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

Ok, this right here is not true. While there are no tanking 2hs, there are plenty of tanking 1hs; and now that there is a 1h def/sta runeforge, you can gain much higher tanking stats (at the expense of threat, true) by dual wielding.

This effect makes hitting the defense cap much easier, which in turn attracts both a lot of fresh 80s and off-spec tanks; that is where the problem arises.

Actually, this isn't so. I've been through this before at least twice. 1hand tank weapons aren't really suitable for DKs, so their avoidance/mitigation stats are largely a moot point. Sure, you can get better mitigation before runeforging (which is a wash between 1h and 2h), but at the expense of threat generation, which is already a DK weakness. 2hand-wise, it's all the same. So there's no advantage with DW.

[Rendakor]

Ok, so you can't read. Increased avoidance at the cost of threat generation is what I said. However, there is a hard cap required for defense, while there is no "threat cap" one must reach in order to successfully tank. You can't just say avoidance is a moot point, because for many starting tanks, meeting the defense cap is a struggle.

[Sjofn]

Like Ingmar said, the parry-gib effect isn't THAT big of a problem, but you can't ignore it completely, either.

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

Man, shut up already. Fuck you and your crybaby "waaaah my upgraaaaaaaades." EVERYONE competes with SOMEONE for upgrades. I am a 2h tank at the moment (you are SERIOUSLY a major driving force for me to switch to DW, by the way), so I steal 2h weapons from ret paladins and non-protection warriors. I carry off plate from the other two plate tanks (there is very little block plate and what there IS, they don't want anyway). When I'm my hunter, I yoink enhance shaman mail. When I'm my druid, I gobble up caster and tank AND dps (melee AND caster!) stuff depending on my specs. And so on.

This whole OH GOD THE ROGUES AND SHAMANS thing is bullshit. You just like to boo hoo about DKs, 'cause that's the cool class to hate on now.

[WindupAtheist]

I kinda want to make a blood DK tank. It may not be the optimal raid tanking spec, but in heroics they come off like a self-healing one man army.

[Sjofn]

I tried blood tanking, it can be pretty fun. I love howling blast a whole bunch, though, so I swapped back to frost. Blood felt pretty damn invincible for leveling, so maybe you'd actually hit 80 with it. 

[WindupAtheist]

Ten levels of Outland (blech) and then another twelve in Northrend just to end up a fresh 80 in greens and farm normals in preparation for heroics is a lot to sell myself on. Especially when I could just respec my paladin and start gathering tank gear right now if I really had the urge. As it is I'm specced ret/ret, one for PVE and one for PVP, and it's pretty fun.

If I ever get an alt off the ground, it'll probably be a DK. I loved my UO necromancer, and the DK is pretty much the WoW equivalent. I think half of what's keeping me away is the lore, because I'm a dork like that. I'll probably like them better after WOTLK is over.

Can you dual-wield as blood? 

(No really. I've been doing two-handers for so long as a paladin that the change would be nice.)

[K9]

You can dual-wield as whatever, it's just that all the dual-wield talents are in the frost tree; you can pick up the +hit for DW talent as it's only in tier one, but the other is too low. That said, you could probably level using a fishing rod as a blood DK and it would still be immeasurably easier than other classes.

[Simond]

Yeah, DK duel-wielding in anything other than a specific type of frost spec is somewhat like "mêlée hunter", "DPS prot spec", or other such special snowflakes. Sure, you can do it but people are going to think you're not very good at playing your class. If you want to tank as blood, go for a two-hander. If you want to tank as unholy...don't. After the repeated nerfs, unholy is basically a DPS tree with the obligatory first-tier "tank" talent every DK tree has plus a couple of very specific (almost niche) defensive abilities of limited general application further down.

[Sheepherder]

Honestly the parry-gib effect on a dual wielding DK (who wants slow weapons for a lot more reasons than just parryhaste, all their instant swings prefer slower weapons anyway) is really not that extreme, especially because on the bosses that hit really hard they have the effect turned off. The main effect of it is to make melee dps move out of the monster's front arc.

It's only ever an issue when people lack expertise.  That being said, you can see it happening when you heal.  It's distinctly unpleasant, and the end result is not too dissimilar to a tank with low avoidance: the amount of healing required is increased, mana becomes more problematic, and the chance that a random tank killing combination of events will occur increases.