Patch 3.3

[Polysorbate80]

You obviously missed the post eariler where I lamented my lack of any actual tank gear, and that I was wearing ret pvp equipment, and did give an actual armory link?

So to learn the ICC 5-man dungeons (and a few regular ones I've never done) I spent a couple days as DPS rather than tank to learn them.   Last night I just tanked them all instead.  Got a crappy 1Lvl219 tank mace, and enough badges for the iLvl245 tank libram.  Plus I made the shitty blacksmithed tank helmet.  Couple more pieces and I'll give the heroics a shot.

When I say ret is boring, it's because as ret I can DPS, and that's *all*.  I've tried it, it's lame (and there's no instant ranged attack unless you get the proc).  This way, I can tank decently well too (neither of us can heal shit).  But in the land of "must optimize for pigeonhole role derp derp" then yes, I fail.  I'm not in your l33t raid, so GTFO with that shit.

[Draegan]

Awh you're one of those people.

[Soulflame]

No instant ranged attack?  There's the taunt.  It has, I believe, a 30 yard range. I'm not sure why you'd need one though, unless it's for peanut butter daily time.

I  ret.  It allows me to kill mobs way faster than my holy main spec, or a prot offspec.

[Polysorbate80]

Sure, you go using the taunt for DPS; see how your tank likes that 

Fordel mentioned a "Ranged cooldown attack".  I'm assuming he was comparing exorcism to the shield toss; shield toss is on a longer cooldown but is always instant, whereas exorcism is only instant on an art of war proc (and completely useless to cast if it isn't).

Also, is your prot offspec using tank gear?  Yeah, that's slow.  Prot in offense gear isn't that much slower than my wife's ret/holy paladin, but is much more survivable.  That survivability may be moot in larger groups, but in a PUG 5-man it's really, really handy.   Who the fuck knows what's going to happen?  Hell, I even wound up healing the Falric/Marwyn fight in HoR the other night, although that's a special case--if it didn't drop the party out of combat for a couple seconds between waves, it would never have worked.

[Sheepherder]

Fordel mentioned a "Ranged cooldown attack".  I'm assuming he was comparing exorcism to the shield toss; shield toss is on a longer cooldown but is always instant, whereas exorcism is only instant on an art of war proc (and completely useless to cast if it isn't).

You're a paladin, you have no useful range unless you are holy.  Suck it up, buttercup.

Prot in offense gear isn't that much slower ... ret/holy paladin ... more survivable ... in a PUG 5-man it's really, really handy ... wound up healing the Falric/Marwyn fight in HoR

[Polysorbate80]

Only in your little world of WoW-playing short-bus robots, spanky. 

[Sheepherder]

Oh, okay.  I didn't know that PuGs require a dedicated cheerleader now.

[Shrike]

No, he's right; you ARE doing it wrong.

I could go into whys and wherefors and whatthefucks, but if your groups put up with this, then I suppose it's a moot point. You can get away with a fair amount of silly shit in 5mans these days.  

[Gobbeldygook]

If I saw a protadin in a 5 man trying to DPS and they weren't doing more than the tank, I'd just votekick them on principle at the earliest opportunity.

[Polysorbate80]

Protribution (0/53/18) in DPS/strength gear doesn't do as much sustained DPS as ret, but it sure as shit does more than a tank in +Def/stam gear.  And we are talking 5-mans, people.  The bar for success is not. that. fucking. high.  As long as the bosses die, loot drops, and fun is had, then fuck this noise about "right" or "wrong" ways to do it.

Some of y'all sound like the mouthbreathers that stand around demanding "looking for XXX, 4500+ dps required, gear check needed, link achievement" before you can be bothered to even think about stepping into a dungeon.

[Rasix]

DPSing in a prot spec is wasting my time. Just like the asshole that goes AFK for 10 minutes to park his car.

[March]

I feel slightly dirty.

Just upgraded a purple i219 to purple i232 last night.

For my entire WoW career, I've been chaotically casual and only ever had, like, 4 purple items... ever.  

Heck, I think I still have a purple belt from MC; I just couldn't bring myself to destroy it... that, and, well, you never know - I might need it someday.

Don't get me wrong, I'm eating the character/loot/content progression with a long-handled spoon - I just think the colors are off... my sense of order is being challenged by all this purple loot of which I'm not really worthy.

[Lakov_Sanite]

DPSing in a prot spec is wasting my time. Just like the asshole that goes AFK for 10 minutes to park his car.

This, times 1000.

[Sheepherder]

Plugging Poly's character into Rawr, it says your maximum single target DPS using the optimal prot rotation is 2500.  Plugging the same variables into Ret except with an Argent Skeleton Crusher yields 3953 max DPS.  Your group is losing 1500 damage per person that decides they want to be carried rather than useful.

EDIT: Completely ignoring that pretty much every fight added since ToC, and several before, have a soft enrage that will kill your entire group if it goes too long.

[Rasix]

I feel slightly dirty.

Just upgraded a purple i219 to purple i232 last night.

Yah, I'm one more tier 9 piece away from starting to replace the tier 8 badge gear I have.  I haven't done that since I was a bleeding edge raider during vanilla WOW upgrading my Molten Core set for the BWL stuff.

It's definitely an odd feeling and almost seems too easy.  But I'm really enjoying it.  And even when my standards have been met for being "done", I'll still likely do the daily while working on another character. It's the system I've always wanted especially since they finally stuck weapon upgrades into a non ball breaking instance.

[Ingmar]

Yeah ret dps and prot dps aren't even in the same universe. A prot pally will deal better damage while tanking than while trying to do damage but not getting hit, I'm not sure why this is even in quesiton. The mana use alone is going to be crippling in a prot spec that isn't getting healed I would think.

The worst thing IMO is it not only screws the group out of some extra damage for no real gain, it also removes a possible source of replenishment, which really matters with a lot of the undergeared healers that are hitting instances.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's funny you mention replenishment because now as a spriest mind blast is cut out of the rotation with high haste builds I'm often getting people asking me where replenishment went(in 5mans at least)  I'll try and work an mb into longer fights if healers are really hurting but to me it's just funny that the only reason people used to take shadow priests is no longer even used by them.

[Polysorbate80]

I sense a common theme:  none of us gives a shit whether the other people are actually having fun, so long as it doesn't impact our own game.  That's fair enough, because I'm guilty of it too--rasix mentioned people afking; well, if I need to just get up and walk away from the computer because of my kids (ages 1 and 6), I don't give a flying fuck what it does to the group.  Whatever, kick me out. 

[Soulflame]

If one person is running some weird spec that limits their DPS, then that person is directly impacting the fun of four other people.

No big deal for most heroics.  If you can pull 1600 dps or better, no one is going to care.  The newer heroics do require better dps than that.

The cavalier attitude you're taking would be awesome if done by a healer, right?  Oh I'm in some weird ret/holy spec so I can do dailies, but I don't have beacon.  That has no real impact on any one else's fun when I'm missing a critical tool, running a bad spec, and unable to perform at the expected level, right?

Or you probably are just getting carried by people who do bother to spec, gem, enchant, and gear correctly, and they simply let you stay because it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.

[Nebu]

If one person is running some weird spec that limits their DPS, then that person is directly impacting the fun of four other people.

No big deal for most heroics.  If you can pull 1600 dps or better, no one is going to care.  The newer heroics do require better dps than that.

The cavalier attitude you're taking would be awesome if done by a healer, right?  Oh I'm in some weird ret/holy spec so I can do dailies, but I don't have beacon.  That has no real impact on any one else's fun when I'm missing a critical tool, running a bad spec, and unable to perform at the expected level, right?

Or you probably are just getting carried by people who do bother to spec, gem, enchant, and gear correctly, and they simply let you stay because it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.

This is the common flaw with forced grouping.  As soon as a task requires a group to complete, you now create an in-game mechanism for other players to dictate how you choose to enjoy playing.  You also provide a mechanism by which a single player can negatively impact the gameplay of as many as 24 other players.   Grouping is at its best when you are able to play with people you are familiar with and enjoy spending time with.  When this becomes impossible due to time conflicts, grouping devolves into a crapshoot that can generate fun or frustration with near equal probability. 

I like what they're trying to do with grouping.  I still would like to see some way around it for the exact same reasons you all cite in this thread. 

[Merusk]

it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.

Nah, you can vote to kick before 15min.  We had a healer DC on zone-in this morning and we were able to votekick after killing the first trash, with 11min on the timer still.

[AutomaticZen]

Protribution (0/53/18) in DPS/strength gear doesn't do as much sustained DPS as ret, but it sure as shit does more than a tank in +Def/stam gear.  And we are talking 5-mans, people.  The bar for success is not. that. fucking. high.  As long as the bosses die, loot drops, and fun is had, then fuck this noise about "right" or "wrong" ways to do it.

Some of y'all sound like the mouthbreathers that stand around demanding "looking for XXX, 4500+ dps required, gear check needed, link achievement" before you can be bothered to even think about stepping into a dungeon.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eredar&n=Divinefury

I use a 0/53/18 spec.  See what the armory says there?  Protection.  And I can guarantee you that you will do more damage tanking in that spec than you will DPSing. In addition, your DPS will weaker, as you're probably using Seal of Wisdom, instead of a DPS seal, since you're really not getting anything from BoSanc or SA.

Yes, you can run Heroics fine doing it.  Most are merely saying, you aren't getting any benefit from doing it your way.  None.  You can tank in a pinch in Ret Spec.  Most of the damage is primarily melee, so you aren't gaining that much by grabbing Avenger's Shield, which is mostly for pulling.  And if you're pulling, why not just tank?

You're boxing with one hand tied behind your back, but... there's really no reason to.

There's some mileage to doing what you're doing in PVP, but PVE it's just kinda... huh?

[Lantyssa]

How about we let Poly play like he wants, and if he isn't doing well enough his groups can kick him?  If it happens enough then he'll either get frustrated and stop or change things around.

[March]

This is the common flaw with forced grouping.  As soon as a task requires a group to complete, you now create an in-game mechanism for other players to dictate how you choose to enjoy playing.  You also provide a mechanism by which a single player can negatively impact the gameplay of as many as 24 other players.   Grouping is at its best when you are able to play with people you are familiar with and enjoy spending time with.  When this becomes impossible due to time conflicts, grouping devolves into a crapshoot that can generate fun or frustration with near equal probability.  

I like what they're trying to do with grouping.  I still would like to see some way around it for the exact same reasons you all cite in this thread.  

On principle I do not gkick anyone until we see that the progression is halted; for 5-man's it is all about smoothness - I don't get an extra badge for speed.

So, to PS80's point... it is only the fact that he (probably) has a 1h/shield that alerts folks to the obvious "odd-spec"... I have no idea how many fools I've grouped with who did not gear/gem/spec correctly... but if things are going to shit, you're the first one I'm going to look at  

If it is just Nexus or UK or some such garden variety 5-man, the goal is a smooth run with 5 badges at the end.  Oddly enough 5k dps in those instances can get people killed (when the rest of the group is geared for the ordinary standard of that instance).  So, yeah, it seems to me the measure should be appropriate movement through the instance, not whether the spec is approved or not.

Bear in mind, though, that it cuts both ways... "odd-spec" probably won't work in difficult 5-mans and I'd either self-select or expect a lot of scrutiny for all the reasons listed above.

edit for coherent spelling.

[AutomaticZen]

How about we let Poly play like he wants, and if he isn't doing well enough his groups can kick him?  If it happens enough then he'll either get frustrated and stop or change things around.

Well it's not like we're stopping him.  There's no magic button to switch his spec.  He can do what he wants.  This all started because of this:

I finally did the three ICC 5-mans last night, as DPS with my PvP gear and protribution spec, so that I could see how they went.  I believe I could tank them on heroic, but it would make for a grumpy healer, so I'll wait til I pick up a little badge gear.

The only issues?

1) People going "WTF" over the concept of DPS in protection spec.

The statement was reacting as if there was a problem with other players.  There isn't.  That's something he needs to get used to.

Do what you want, but if you're (to use my metaphor again) boxing with one hand behind your back, don't be shocked when your corner team is going 'WTF?!'.

[March]

To Nebu's point... when was the "WTF" moment?

The minute they saw him?  Or when the group could not get past the first pull or first boss?

Against the former I protest, with the latter I agree.

[Polysorbate80]

I have never said that I did more damage than I would in ret.  Nor do I plan to run dungeons solely as DPS; I *would* tank, if I had the gear to do it.  I don't.  (Well, I do for the non-heroics, as long as I remember to pay attention to the wanderers--I did cause the one wipe last night purely out of not paying attention to a roamer when pulling...)  And I'm not going to try to do it in non-tank gear without learning the dungeons, so I went DPS first.  To go run a few dungeons in non-heroic is not worth respecing/re-gemming/re-glyphing/rearming/re-wrapping my head around the way ret functions or just gimping my fun any more than I have to (I would, honestly, rather tank.)  Yet some of you seem to think it's my life's goal to do this?

I am saying that DPS in Prot is, while not optimal, not as bad as some of you make it out to be.  For 5-mans, anyway.  I wouldn't do a raid with it, nor expect to.   Actually, I just wouldn't do the raid; I will NOT spec ret again.  It's less boring than healing, but still not entertaining enough to do.

(And yes, I'm aware I would do more damage tanking, since I rarely ran consecration and got no blocking.  And no, I didn't use wisdom except for about 5% of the time when Divine Plea was off and on cooldown at a bad moment)

[AutomaticZen]

I have never said that I did more damage than I would in ret.  Nor do I plan to run dungeons solely as DPS; I *would* tank, if I had the gear to do it.  I don't.  (Well, I do for the non-heroics, as long as I remember to pay attention to the wanderers--I did cause the one wipe last night purely out of not paying attention to a roamer when pulling...)  And I'm not going to try to do it in non-tank gear without learning the dungeons, so I went DPS first.  To go run a few dungeons in non-heroic is not worth respecing/re-gemming/re-glyphing/rearming/re-wrapping my head around the way ret functions or just gimping my fun any more than I have to (I would, honestly, rather tank.)  Yet some of you seem to think it's my life's goal to do this?

I am saying that DPS in Prot is, while not optimal, not as bad as some of you make it out to be.  For 5-mans, anyway.  I wouldn't do a raid with it, nor expect to.   Actually, I just wouldn't do the raid; I will NOT spec ret again.  It's less boring than healing, but still not entertaining enough to do.

(And yes, I'm aware I would do more damage tanking, since I rarely ran consecration and got no blocking.  And no, I didn't use wisdom except for about 5% of the time when Divine Plea was off and on cooldown at a bad moment)

I understand, and others may have been rather harsh about it.  Just expect an uphill climb with pugs.

[Lakov_Sanite]

My ex used to play rpg's and never NEVER used consumable items, as though every last potion and ether was some precious thing to be tucked away for the final fight of the game.  She would literally go out and out-level every boss to avoid using them and did this impact me? No, I was just occasionally watching her play, a single player game that had no effect on me at all.  You know what though? It was frustrating as all hell and still is.

Look, this isn't the special olympics where everyone wins and you're all unique snowflakes. While how you play is entirely your perrogative it does not however invalidate the stupidity of it nor should anyone be barred from calling someone out on it.  You might think it's fun to walk to first base instead of run every time and sure, if you get a good hit or they drop the ball you might get there but don't get mad at all the other players for calling you a retard.

[kildorn]

I sense a common theme:  none of us gives a shit whether the other people are actually having fun, so long as it doesn't impact our own game.  That's fair enough, because I'm guilty of it too--rasix mentioned people afking; well, if I need to just get up and walk away from the computer because of my kids (ages 1 and 6), I don't give a flying fuck what it does to the group.  Whatever, kick me out. 

I love when people have fun. It makes everything so much better. And I understand that real life is important and has emergencies.

What I don't accept is that when your idea of fun = wasting four other people's chances to have fun. There's a difference between "shit happens, had to leave to fix something" (heck, half the people I play with are in IT. We're used to pauses to VPN in and fix something) and "my idea of fun is making this harder for everyone else"

[Polysorbate80]

To Nebu's point... when was the "WTF" moment?

The minute they saw him?  Or when the group could not get past the first pull or first boss?

Against the former I protest, with the latter I agree.

Imagine a scaled-down version of this argument at the start of about every other group, usually led by the tank--healers never bitched.  Once they got over it and tried a couple of pulls, they shut up and we kept going, except for the one (DW DK tank with worse gear than me, no less) that booted me before the last boss in Pit of Saron despite a flawless run.

Lakov & kildorn: Still failng on reading comprehension.  Back on the short bus, you!

[K9]

This thread is all a bit

[Fordel]

I'm still confused. Do you not have dual spec and are just winging it in your Prot spec? Or do you have dual spec and purposefully have two Prot Specs, one for 'dps' ?

There really aren't any 'intricacies' to learn about Ret, you could literally just put Crusade Strike, Divine Storm and Exorcism into the same slots Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous and Avengers Shield currently fill on your bar. You have plate DPS gear already, and even if it was all socketed for parry it wouldn't hinder Ret Spec any. You can find a decent 2h weapon just about anywhere these days, Rep, Tourney, Crafted etc.

If you don't have dual spec, sure, just stick with your preferred spec. If you do, then I don't understand your motivation or logic.



Also, for the entire length of the Art of War/Exo mechanic, I can count the number of times it hasn't been up on one hand. :P



-edit- I guess I can sum up my confusion like this.

You're using a Hammer to drive in Screws. Sure, it 'works' well enough, but why not use the Screwdriver? It's right there on your tool belt.

[Polysorbate80]

I have a prot spec for tanking, and one for PvP.  Some of the PvP talents are wasted while tanking, and vice versa.  Prot is my preferred method of PvP as well as general play. 

I've done ret for PvP and PvE, and stylistically it doesn't appeal to me.  The buttons may often do much the same thing, but I like 1h/shield.  I don't like the big mace/sword, with half the hit points and 2/3 the armor.  I *like* standing in the middle of a pile of mobs and laughing at them.

More practically, I also didn't (and still don't) think it's necessary to go through the trouble of respecing, buying new glyphs, and buying a weapon (or smithing up a lol-steel destroyer) for what literally amounted to an afternoon & evening of playtime, and then changing it all back, when there was no realistic reason to do so other than shaving a short amount of time off the dungeons.  Particularly when a fair number of the dedicated DPSers weren't any better geared--since I'm not using 245+ gear, I'm getting stuck with the lower echelons at times (some groups had level 79 folks in them.)  I don't run a DPS meter, but the 2500 figure someone posted earlier as a guesstimate was definitely more than a number of the other group members :P

(You're exaggerating on the art of war or you've got insane crit; my wife has 28-29% and it's still frequently not up at the time exorcism comes off CD, but it's not usually a long wait either)

[Sheepherder]

Don't forget the full set of iLevel 213+ ret pvp gear gemmed for mostly Str + Str/Stam.

If you changed specs you'd lose 3100 health and lose ~3% damage reduction from armor if you specced 0/20/51 (Armour talents) Imp Devotion Aura also provides 6% +Heal for the entire party regardless of what aura you're running, but Toughness doesn't require Devo Aura for the armour buff and reduces slow duration.  Or you could build Sacred Shield / Imp Sacred Shield for more mitigation that way.  As Ret you could also bounce heals off of people in your party if you need some action.  And yes, Art of War does proc that often, the rate is exactly equal to your crit rate, and it procs off of all melee attacks, which means you should be averaging one approximately every 3-4 seconds.

And that 2500 DPS figure for your prot spec was fully raid buffed, the target fully debuffed, with a flask and Fish Feast "Well Fed" buff.

EDIT: And just throwing more numbers at Rawr, it predicts a 1693 DPS optimum for your spec, single target, self-buffed.