Competitive TF2

[taolurker]

I was thinking nipples

[schild]

[Sjofn]

Man, I totally just snortlaughed. 

[Nonentity]

So she's good, but also a non-entity.

I'm not Chell!

Also,

Hi! 

[Sjofn]

omg hi

If TF2 added dwarf boobs, would you play it with me?

[NiX]

How is that less comical?

[Ray]

absolutely no fun was had in the making of this screenshot:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2ugox1d.jpg

I thought everyone here would enjoy it, though!

[schild]

I thought everyone here would enjoy it, though!

I don't mean to be a prick, but... why?

[Ray]

Because of the whole discussion regarding the reasons people play competitively. Someone mentioned that my postings were thinly veiled attempts at waving around my internet penis.
Now there's no veil: it's all about my iDick!

[schild]

Now there's no veil: it's all about my iDick!

You can't play TF2 on a mac.

Anyway, yea, it was pretty obvious it was about your internet penis the moment you mentioned that kind of server. No one cares about restrictions made by fans on shit except people who need a controlled environment where people will care about their internet penis. In other words, the reason this got split off and no one gave a shit is because serious rules made by people who aren't the devs are generally made and followed by people half of the people here would probably smack in the face through the internet - if such a technology existed.

[Ray]

It was actually about trying to get you guys to try it. I'm mediocre at best and my team is...not good. I consider myself a normal TF2 player. Also it's not a server type :)

A controlled environment isn't about need - I play on pubs a ton still - it's about enjoying competition. Rules and organization only enhances that.

The rules are all made by the devs, and the devs support the competitive community. Ever wonder why mp_tournament mode got added? Specifically to help out the competitive community. What about the cvar to disable damage spread? Same thing, because it was a plugin until Valve got around to coding it in.

Lots of public servers have lots of different rules. Some have crits on, some have crits off. Some run stock maps, some don't. Some have 32 player slots, some have 16. Do you want to smack people that play on 32-player 24/7 2fort instantspawn servers in the face through the internet?

You make it sound like a controlled environment is a bad thing. I've never been griefed off of a scrim/match server because an engineer is using a teleporter exploit, or someone is aimbotting, or spamming HLSS and using the well-known bug to remove themselves from your mute list.

Do you hate people that join guilds too? What about people that raid in whatever MMO you're playing?

It's pretty clear that you have no real idea what you're talking about it, especially with the way you're generalizing about a whole hell of a lot of people who probably spend the majority of their TF2 time on public servers. I'd love to see you and some of the guys here form a team and sign up for a league. Not to see you lose, because you'll probably win some. No, I'd like to see you actually experience what you're putting down without having seriously tried it. Oh, and maybe you'll realize that you're completely ass-backwards in your opinion of competitive players.

The internet penis thing is fucking retarded. I guess people join real-life company sports leagues to waving their real penis? Can you even explain who the hell I'm waving my penis at in the first place? You really come off as the fat kid who throws a basketball at the basket with 30 other kids during PE and irrationally hates the kids that organize pickup games after school...and who also likes shooting around during PE and has no ill feelings towards you at all. Weird analogy, but whatever.

Internet penis waving is bragging about your duel record and challenging everyone you see to a duel, or sitting at brit west bank on your pure black mare and blessed clothes or something. Playing scrims and in leagues is so far away from that, I can't possibly see where you're coming from.


Oh, and not trying to be a dick or anything, really...but that last line about smacking people in the face through the internet? Made you sound like a pussy irl :(









btw trolled

[schild]

Rules and organization only enhances that.

no

[Ray]

I'm not sure you understand the point of competition, then.

[schild]

I completely understand the point of competition. But layering some pile of bullshit rules on top of the guidelines already put forth by a game, unless they're absolutely ridiculuos rules to make for an absolutely ridiculous game, strikes me as BS - as I'm sure it does the majority of people around here.

Also, six players to a team in TF2 - of all games - is just incredibly stupid to me.

[Ray]

What rules do you consider bullshit? Tell me and I'll give you the reason they exist. You may still think they're bullshit, but there ARE reasons and usually good ones.



If you're not just trolling me and aren't completely closeminded, read on and I'll explain a little about the reasons for the six-to-a-team standard.

As I've mentioned, there are also 8v8 and 9v9 leagues.
My first taste of competitive TF2 was in 8v8, and I really enjoyed it. It's biggest issues were: A) Too spammy. Remember that all 8 people are coordinating together, so you often get more concentrated spam on specific chokepoints than a 12v12 game. B) The level of competition was poor and there aren't many teams playing it. C) Getting 16 on at the same time is tough. D) Getting 8 on to scrim is really hard
9v9 is highlander, and it's really fun. It's works better as an event that tons of people are invited to and then teams are picked rather than as a league. Getting 18 people together at the same time is hard, and forget about getting the 9 people on your team together to practice a few times a week.

6v6 has the benefit of being a lot easier to schedule and organize. Getting your 6 teammates together a few times a week is relatively easy.

Strategy is much more important and can actually be executed, vs the chaos of 12v12 where you have no chance of knowing where all of your teammates are, much less the other team. It's not like a raid in a MMO either, you can't just have the leader talking. EVERYONE has to be talking - calling positions, spotting the other team, saying if you die, telling your team who you killed, etc. That just can't happen with 12v12.

How often do you see any sort of organization in 12v12? Sort of regularly, but look at the numbers: it's usually 6 or less guys working together. Any more than that and it breaks down.

It also cuts down heavily on the spam. 1 demo and 2 soldiers can still spam a good deal, but it's suppressive spam or covering fire. You don't get many kills by spamming. Conversely, in 12v12 I can top the scoreboard by spamming chokepoints as a demo quite easily because there's also a few other demos doing the same thing. There's so many players and so much explosive spam going on that you get kills (and stall the fuck out of the other team) without exhibiting any real skill or even really trying.

With 6 players to a team, each player means a hell of a lot more. If you get a headshot on the fully-charged and about to uber enemy medic in 12v12, gj but it probably won't change the eventual outcome of the game. Do the same thing in 6v6? You may have just won the game for your team.

I realize that only 6 to a team probably sounds like it would make the maps feel empty. It doesn't, though. The chokepoints and the control points are still the focus of the maps and are constantly being fought over.


There was a lot of contention early on about what format was the best. I wasn't even remotely interested in competitive play back then, but here's an article from that time period that went over some of the opinions and pros/cons: http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/story/41529/

Here's a quote from that article quoting a player that echos what I said above:
"I hate to say it but its a LOT easier to scrim 6v6 as well - in TFC we'd have to schedule scrims days in advance because it would be 8v8 or 9v9."





 

[Trippy]

Just ignore schild, he doesn't get it.

[schild]

Just ignore schild, he doesn't get it.

No, I completely get it. Particularly having lived with an uber-competitive game that makes Ray look casual (Agnarth if you're wondering, though I don't think either of you ever played with him). Though, in this particular case, no matter how many times he explains it, 6v6 TF2 strikes me as unfun shlock. And yes, I read his post. He said spam 8 times.

[Ray]

I am casual, though.

Spam sucks. Gotta get that point across.

[schild]

I am casual, though.

Spam sucks. Gotta get that point across.

Spam is simply part of the game and even playing constantly on 32 man servers, it's never gotten to the point where it's impossible to be a spy and such.

Also, no one who writes that much about the competitive rules and why they think it's better is "casual." You're probably on the top 5% of the top 5% of hardcore style players with crap like that. Not professional, obviously, but certainly top tier in terms of hardcoreness.

[Samwise]

And yes, I read his post.

You're a better man than I.   

[Valmorian]

...It's pretty clear that you have no real idea what you're talking about it, especially with the way you're generalizing about a whole hell of a lot of people who probably spend the majority of their TF2 time on public servers....

...Oh, and maybe you'll realize that you're completely ass-backwards in your opinion of competitive players...

...You really come off as the fat kid who throws a basketball at the basket with 30 other kids during PE and irrationally hates the kids that organize pickup games after school...

...Oh, and not trying to be a dick or anything, really...but that last line about smacking people in the face through the internet? Made you sound like a pussy irl :(...

btw trolled (yes, I saw this too)

Doing a stellar job there helping to encourage people to give competitive TF2 a try, bucko. 

[Rishathra]

absolutely no fun was had in the making of this screenshot:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2ugox1d.jpg

I thought everyone here would enjoy it, though!

I guess the positive side of epeen waving is that when one of them sticks me in the eye, the resulting squint means that I will be temporarily unable to see the fuckstupid alphabet soup names that "competitive" players invariably seem to come up with.

Also, what Valmorian said.

[taolurker]

IMO the main reason threads get out of hand is the flashing or mentioning of penis.. I'd say ghey, but that's like forbidden and not PC

Competitive play benefits in two areas, it makes players want to get better as a team, and allows players to increase their skill.

I was in clans of various types over the FPS internet age, and competitive ones, that were in leagues or actively playing, formed more tight nit communities. The competition is a badge of honor for some people, but it's more about getting together with a common goal, to have a good time trying... except when people become sore losers or above mentioned male members.

I originally thought Ray was coming here looking for decent scrim people, but then again with the whiny trolling that seems to accompany this thread I would recommend against that. I still play from time to time Ray, and will come give your servers some brain cells to splatter.

Either way this thread is off the hook funny, and I certainly hope the trolling from all sides continues.

 

[NiX]

Concentrated spam is called suppressing the enemy in real gunfights. People who call it spam are the ones who die from it.

[ahoythematey]

I don't really have a problem with competitive play(until a group of clanmates decide that it'll be fun to faceroll all over a team of pubbies), but I stopped being interested in it for the same reasons I no longer really bother with guilds in WoW: I already have a job, and when I'm playing games I'm not looking for the abstraction of another.

[Ray]

I originally thought Ray was coming here looking for decent scrim people,

Bingo! That was the original reason, for sure. I remember playing with some of you guys way back when tf2 first released and was wondering if A) f13 had formed a team, or B) anyone from f13 was on a team - and that we could maybe get a scrim together.
I had a thought to see if you guys would be interested in a pickup game or something if neither of the two applied. Basically get at least 12 people on a server, pick teams, and go at it. Once the match is over, pick new teams, incorporating the players that didn't play the first match.

Also think you guys would enjoy highlander, but that requires at least 18 so it's a little harder to get going.

I don't see where my posts were so offensive, especially in light of the responses I received. I certainly didn't mean to be a dick or to put anyone down until well after my posts and my person were attacked. Even then, I thought my responses were pretty restrained and I tried to remain civil and constructive.

Concentrated spam is called suppressing the enemy in real gunfights. People who call it spam are the ones who die from it.

The first part is correct. It becomes detrimental to fun gameplay when there's too much of it going on especially at chokepoints. Think dustbowl 3.2. Not only does that point become really unfun, but it makes certain classes completely useless - how many times have you see a scout be remotely effective there?

I don't really have a problem with competitive play(until a group of clanmates decide that it'll be fun to faceroll all over a team of pubbies), but I stopped being interested in it for the same reasons I no longer really bother with guilds in WoW: I already have a job, and when I'm playing games I'm not looking for the abstraction of another.

I actually agree, which is why I'll never be a top-tier player in a top-tier clan.
I've formed two teams for TF2 so far, and both of them formed out of friends that I already played with and knew. Maybe it's a stupid distinction, but I've always felt that I crossed the line when I started recruiting people I don't know and it becomes about winning more than about playing with friends and having fun.

I've got the hint though, guys. I'll stay out of your playground here; no more debating from me. If anyone has any questions or wants to organize some games, I'm definitely down for that. I really do think most of you would find some organized pickup games fun, but unfortunately most of you have this negative kneejerk reaction to anything even close to competitive play :(

[ahoythematey]

That's probably another big factor for myself and the retard rodeo of guys that I call friends: they all play WoW or stupid xbox shit.  I'd probably be more inclined to do some semi-competitive team games if I wasn't the only person playing Day of Defeat or Fortress.

[NiX]

Organized pick-up games ≠ competitive play

I think the main problem was that you came in here touting it as being better than pubbie play, when in reality they are two very different ways to play the game. A lot of us like to just shoot stuff without having to adhere to any real rules outside of those set by the game itself. Competitive play adds another layer, with restrictions and guidelines. Not to mention that it's filled with competitive people, some of which who call themselves "pros". Not my cup of tea and it never will be. Games lose their fun the minute I'm told to take it seriously.

[Bzalthek]

I'm not really sure which thread to post this in, but since this is apparently the retard thread...

Any recommendations on a god-I-suck server?  I just picked up Orange Box (yay relatives) and I am apparently the drooling inversion of Stephen Hawking when it comes to TF2.

[Ray]

Organized pick-up games ≠ competitive play

 Competitive play adds another layer, with restrictions and guidelines.

I think you're thinking of it the wrong way. There aren't any rules or restrictions that aren't coded into the game like the infamous 2fort bridge truce in TFC.

It's just specific server configs is all, just like the servers that allow 32 players or have winlimit set to 500 or anything like that. Here's part of the cevo config:

tf_damage_disablespread          "1"
tf_weapon_criticals            "0"

tf_tournament_classlimit_medic          "1"
tf_tournament_classlimit_demoman       "1"
tf_tournament_classlimit_soldier       "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_engineer       "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_scout          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_spy          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_heavy          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_pyro          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_sniper       "2"
tf_tournament_hide_domination_icons       "1"

mp_tournament                          "1"
mp_timelimit             "30"
mp_winlimit             "5"
mp_autoteambalance          "0"
sv_alltalk                "0"

sv_pure                  "2"

You say that you want to play without having to adhere to any real rules outside of those set by the game itself. I agree. I hate rules that require rules lawyering and he-said/she-said that aren't enforceable by the game. That's not what competitive TF2 is, though.

I mean, ALL servers have rules. Some have no crits, some have class limits...you get my point.

So yeah, my thought was for a pick-up game using the standard competitive server configs. That's how I started playing 8v8 and 6v6. A bunch of us jumped on a server, execed the config, picked teams, conferred on classes, then went at it. I sort of thought the same way you do before I started playing in PUGs.

Unless you're thinking of a pickup as just everyone jumping on a 24-man server with the default config and random joining teams? Wasn't really what I was talking about it!

So would anyone be interested in playing in a pickup game the way I described above? I'd be happy to host it, and I think you'd have a blast.

[Samwise]

servers that allow 32 players or have winlimit set to 500 or ... no crits, class limits...

I try to avoid servers that have any of those.     I just wish they'd do a better job of tagging themselves so I could filter them out up front.

[NiX]

Yeah, this is a lost cause. I'm going to go drink bleach now.

[Samwise]

[DLRiley]

Ray if tf2 had an automated scrim system you have much better argument.

[Nija]

I played TF2 competitively for the first few months that the game was out. I'll just say that it's not really designed to be a competitive game.

It's a fun game, though, and I still play every now and then.