"Oh btw, FFXIV Online in 2010"

[Numtini]

I don't think the grind was excessive for the time, but what I remember most are the choke points. EQ had a far worse grind, but you could always just grab a group and go. I ended up dropping out of FFXI when I hit I think it was 30ish and needed my airship pass to get to the next area. I had people sending tells to me at times for groups, but I couldn't get to them without the pass. I could not find a group for that quest and just ended up dropping out. I reupped a year later, went through the whole shebang of calling in and getting my character retrieved. I quit a week later still sitting in the same cave looking for a group.

EQ had stuff like that, especially for items, but usually you could live without the item or it was mainly important for a guild's raiding so if you needed it, you had a built in support community for getting it. FFXI had multiple times when you just had to do something and basically couldn't keep playing until you had gotten it done.

[tmp]

There was no item level requirements to use items, so there's no need for a range selection.

Well the guide says that arguably the most useful function in the AH was to sort by level, because you could then scroll all way to the end and then all way back until you'd start seeing items usable at your level. I don't see how all the extra clicks to scroll back and forth through level-sorted list are in any way better than being able to narrow selection from the get go. Or why you'd prefer to do it the extra clicks way.

You never needed any sort of 'search' anyway.

If i come to AH to buy "Wooden Arrows" i don't want to "select which category you wish to view, and work your way through the sub-categories till you reach the item listing" not in the least because the developers can have different idea on layout of sub-categories from me, which can create extra layer of confusion and fumbling around at least initially. I just want to drop "arrow" in search box and click the "Wooden Arrows" that show up as result.

That's some basic functionality really. If the AH cannot provide it then no, it's not best one out there by any means (although it may indeed be the best you've personally seen, but it just brings us back to my initial question) ... considering there's games with AHs that do provide these basics.

[bhodi]

Why are you trying to argue against a system that you have never personally used, based on some guy's guide online?

You don't need name searches because in ffxi you generally didn't know the name of the thing you wanted (unless you tab out and look it up) , you just want whatever gives you the most plusses. It wasn't some huge hindrance like you're thinking it is. Everything was nicely sorted into logical categories that took about 15 seconds to figure out.

I guess you could consider that an extra layer of confusion or fumbling. If you squint really hard. The method is just different; it's not like you knew exactly the name of the item you wanted in the first place, unless you found it through some outside source. If you're suggesting that navigating through the menus repeatedly for often consumables was annoying, well, the ONLY consumable in the game that got used on a regular basis were arrows (and shruiken). For one class that was expressly designed as a money sink for people who had too much gil.

It isn't like WoW where you have about 300 different kinds of arrows and bullets, all named differently. Another thing was that every item showed up on the AH whether there was one available or not, so you could browse for potential upgrades just by surfing around.

[Koyasha]

A few interface improvements to the FFXI AH wouldn't hurt, but the AH system itself IS one of the best out there (if not THE best) because of how it works with its price history, hidden true prices and actual bidding.  You get to see how much the last 10 items sold for, and you get to put in what you're willing to pay.  If no one is willing to sell at that price, your bid stays in the system until someone is or you cancel it.  If someone is willing to sell at that price, whichever item is priced lowest goes to you, and they get the amount you bid on it (even if it's higher than their minimum bid price).  The system encourages seller competition by selling lower priced items first and gives enough information to the buyer so they can make a reasonable judgement on how much they want to bid without requiring them to 'just know' how much an item is supposedly worth.

A few interface improvements and an extension of the price history to say, 100 items instead of 10 would make it practically perfect.  10 is capable of being rigged by one or more people repeatedly buying and selling an item in order to raise or lower the price in the history, but unless this is done among a group of several people it's generally obvious because you see the same name buying the same item over and over.  Of course, the trick is with consumables that you DO want to buy lots of, it's not so obvious because it's reasonable for one person to buy a large number of the item.

Bhodi has the right of it with that list, in my opinion, except I count these two as good things:
* All the worst elements of EQ - camp checks, mob trains, unreliable mob strength information, extremely long travel time to get anywhere.
* Heavy, almost crippling death penalty - XP loss and develing combined with a gruesome run back can mean hours to crawl your way back up after a bad wipe

But then previous discussions on the subject have already established I'm an outlier in that I see those things as strengths and not weaknesses.  I'd also say that the level sync system is one of the better implementations of such a thing, from what I've heard, but I haven't played it since the implementation of that feature in order to be certain of that, I only have what friends have told me to go on.

[bhodi]

Oh, I forgot to add their retarded ban on letting you tab out. I just used a wrapper program that allowed it, and I stopped playing long before they shut that one down.

[tmp]

Why are you trying to argue against a system that you have never personally used, based on some guy's guide online?

I'm not arguing against it. I just asked how many such systems have you personally seen, so i could put in context your declaration this one with rather blatant shortcomings (that some other games managed to avoid) is the best you've witnessed. E.g. EVE seems to provide similar set ot features but also much deeper price history and the search, so seeing something more primitive and clumsy getting praise like that can make one curious.

[Delmania]

Again, FFXI is not the same as WoW.  What bhodi stated about level requirements is partially true, items do not have level requirements because they make no sense in the FFXI, as there is no level associated with your character.  Rather, items have job level requirements.  However, simply because an item has a requirement of level 51 bard doesn't mean it's the best thing around.  Race specific equipment (RSE) is a great example of this.  Around level 30, all races can do these quests to get a piece of armor that only their race can use, but is not job specific.  Example: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=1602

As a bard, I used that until I got this: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=8849  If you look at this page: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/dyn/items/Body.html there's tons of items I could have used in the interim, but I didn't because none were better for a bard. 

If the AH allowed to search for items all of your jobs levels could use, that would be awesome.

[01101010]

the great thing about FFXI was party symmetry - before all the banana mobs came out in the expansions, SE really did a fantastic job creating jobs that complimented one another in promoting party cohesion as well as the subjob idea (which i consider still to be SE's shine on the game). skill chains and magic bursting being one part... but in the same vein, it was also the thing that cut the balls off some jobs once the game got old enough for people to start realizing certain jobs just plain sucked in output. of course now (since i still use the game as a pretty-graphics chat room) with the introduction of crap mobs, its all about melee zerging and pushing your xp/hr to some agreed upon arbitrary number.

i am actually curious to the meaning behind their claim of non-convetional leveling system as well as their job system.

[koro]

Regardless of what they do, I hope Square realizes just how fantastic their current Level Sync system is, how much it changed FFXI for the better when it was put in, and make sure FFXIV has it in mind. Level Sync was the only thing that made me come back after four years of absence, and the game is exponentially better for it.

I was very sad to discover, though, that skillchaining and Magic Bursting are pretty much dead now.

[Numtini]

People should really compare the FFXI auction house to the available systems in other games at the same time, which I believe consisted of screaming in a cave. It's a 2002 game ffs.

[Murgos]

...which I believe consisted of screaming in a cave.

It's kind of funny how well that worked.

[raydeen]

People should really compare the FFXI auction house to the available systems in other games at the same time, which I believe consisted of screaming in a cave. It's a 2002 game ffs.

Screaming in a cave. :D I do have fond memories of the EC Tunnel. I remember the first time I got there from Qeynos and thinking 'This is really cool. All these people crowded around, buying and selling.'. I was actually a little pissed when they brought the auction house out with Luclin, but after awhile it did make more sense. It was easier, but less personal. I liked the idea of the player driven Bazaar in the tunnel.. Made the world feel a bit more real.

[Koyasha]

That tends to be the case with a lot of these improvements over the years.  They improve one portion of the game, but usually at the cost of another.  Often I think we've lost more than we've gained.

[Dren]

I'm not going to rehash what was already said here.  It is pretty well covered.

I do want to put in that I'm willing to check this out too.  I have fond memories of FFXI up until the cockblocks.

Watershell LS hoooo!

[koro]

This quote from an IGN interview stuck out to me:

What modern day MMOs have influenced the design and direction of FFXIV?
In addition to the team's original work on Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan and Warhammer Online have been three recent games that have had some pull, but the FFXI community's feedback has been the most important factor in its design.

Whether or not the dev in question was just rattling off high-profile Western MMOs he probably doesn't know much about in an attempt to show some form of greater awareness, I still find it interesting that AoC and WAR in particular were named, especially considering how far they are from FFXI in base design (and that they both, put together, likely have less subs than FFXI does even now).

[Lantyssa]

Because they both had some very good ideas.  And some very, very bad things they can learn to avoid.

[LC]

"Is it fun?"

I asked myself that question pretty regularly when I played WoW. I found the answer the day I quit playing.

[01101010]

Because they both had some very good ideas.  And some very, very bad things they can learn to avoid.

my guess who be this and heavy on the "what not to do" side of things. hence, MEMO: things to avoid...see WAR + AoC

[Draegan]

"Is it fun?"

I asked myself that question pretty regularly when I played WoW. I found the answer the day I quit playing.

Good for you.  How's Darkfall?

[Delmania]

my guess who be this and heavy on the "what not to do" side of things. hence, MEMO: things to avoid...see WAR + AoC

Warhammer's public questing system, and the tome of knowledge all come to mind.

[Venkman]

People should really compare the FFXI auction house to the available systems in other games at the same time, which I believe consisted of screaming in a cave. It's a 2002 game ffs.

EQ1s Bazaar launched in February of 2002. But of course, that was a buggy mess that itself came months later than the expansion in which it was supposed to launch. And I think it was another few months before they patched in the UI that let you search the whole place rather than needing to visit every single player vendor.

So, err, yea. I have no point here

Warhammer's public questing system, and the tome of knowledge all come to mind.

LoTRO had that 18 months before the launch of WAR. The PQs though, yea, those are awesome. As long as a) you don't have a bajillion of them spreading players all over the place; and, b) you dynamically scale them to those who show up (and those in the outside vicinity, and zone) so once the average level increases, new arrivals can still access them. We did warn them

[Numtini]

The big problem with War's PQs was the same problem that PVP had in EQ.

It was totally irrelevent to the game.

[Venkman]

Actually, besides the item rewards you could get from the PQ (depending on your ranking), just participating gained you Influence Points. Similar to rep grinds in WoW, you gain enough Influence Points with a specific NPC ("Rally Master), you can buy better gear.

EQ1 PvP was literally pointless 

[Draegan]

I'd like to see more PQ systems but with less Mythic and more anyone else.

[Numtini]

The PQs needed scale more, combine the kind of scaling difficulty of COX encounters with public quests and that would be fantastic.

Provided, of course, you're not a PVP game ;)

[Lantyssa]

Well, a PvP game shouldn't have scaling at all since people should be on relatively equal footing.  Why anyone thinks combining a level system with PvP is a good idea is beyond my comprehension.

[Venkman]

The PQs needed scale more, combine the kind of scaling difficulty of COX encounters with public quests and that would be fantastic.

SWG (and UO before it) had this. Basically, there was a chance that whatever lair spawned in the area was based on the configuration of the people around, compared to the difficulty of the area and planet. I believe it was a variant on the same code that wouldn't spawn a lair from a Mission Terminal until you were within range of it.

The challenge is that this makes a world feel less gametic but more "real". Players in general seem to prefer crafted zones and content designed to maximize the fun and then predictability than procedurally generated content that attempts to simulate a living system. It's probably related to the acquisition and brinksmanship that's so much a part of this platform. Players compare themselves to the system as much as they do to other players (e.g., who didn't go back to Blackburrow or Crushbone to lay waste to the mobs that gave us so many problems in the formative levels?).

It's actually this which I think is the root of the overall challenge of PvP in this space. Players expect to show up knowing their power relative to their opponent, but in PvP that doesn't apply. Meanwhile, in games without PvE (like FPSes), no such assumption is ever made.

[UnSub]

The PQs needed scale more, combine the kind of scaling difficulty of COX encounters with public quests and that would be fantastic.

Provided, of course, you're not a PVP game ;)

Champions Online is going to have PQs in it. Can't say about actual implementation due to but they are including the idea.

[Trippy]

The PQs needed scale more, combine the kind of scaling difficulty of COX encounters with public quests and that would be fantastic.

Provided, of course, you're not a PVP game ;)

You can't scale public encounters the way CoH/CoV does it* cause, well, they are public. People can join it at any time which means you would have to magically spawn more mobs right in front of them to increase the difficulty. And people can pass through a PQ area without participating meaning you'll get mobs popping in and out as people enter the area and leave even if you were willing to have mobs magically appear.

*CoH/CoV actually scales outdoor encounters as well but it's a lot more subtle. The mobs in the public zones don't actually appear until you get within a certain distance of their spawn points (which is beyond visible range) and the groups are very loosely scaled based on what's passing by.

[dusematic]

"Is it fun?"

I asked myself that question pretty regularly when I played WoW. I found the answer the day I quit playing.

Be careful about criticizing MMOs in these here parts boy!  We don't take kindly to that.

[PalmTrees]

You can't scale public encounters the way CoH/CoV does it* cause, well, they are public. People can join it at any time which means you would have to magically spawn more mobs right in front of them to increase the difficulty. And people can pass through a PQ area without participating meaning you'll get mobs popping in and out as people enter the area and leave even if you were willing to have mobs magically appear.

*CoH/CoV actually scales outdoor encounters as well but it's a lot more subtle. The mobs in the public zones don't actually appear until you get within a certain distance of their spawn points (which is beyond visible range) and the groups are very loosely scaled based on what's passing by.

That's pretty much what CoX does with the rikti/zombie invasions. More people in an area, more mobs show up. Get enough people then bosses and elites spawn. The player number/density checks and spawn rates are such that someone just passing through wouldn't have any effect.

[ezrast]

The PQs needed scale more, combine the kind of scaling difficulty of COX encounters with public quests and that would be fantastic.

Provided, of course, you're not a PVP game ;)

You can't scale public encounters the way CoH/CoV does it* cause, well, they are public. People can join it at any time which means you would have to magically spawn more mobs right in front of them to increase the difficulty. And people can pass through a PQ area without participating meaning you'll get mobs popping in and out as people enter the area and leave even if you were willing to have mobs magically appear.

How about the giant boss monsters that were exactly five levels above everybody, all the time? Not sure if that's what Numtini meant but they were sort of like a mini-PQ that scaled: any random passerby could join in the effort and get a reward for participation.

Damn you PalmTrees.

[Trippy]

You can't scale public encounters the way CoH/CoV does it* cause, well, they are public. People can join it at any time which means you would have to magically spawn more mobs right in front of them to increase the difficulty. And people can pass through a PQ area without participating meaning you'll get mobs popping in and out as people enter the area and leave even if you were willing to have mobs magically appear.

*CoH/CoV actually scales outdoor encounters as well but it's a lot more subtle. The mobs in the public zones don't actually appear until you get within a certain distance of their spawn points (which is beyond visible range) and the groups are very loosely scaled based on what's passing by.

That's pretty much what CoX does with the rikti/zombie invasions. More people in an area, more mobs show up. Get enough people then bosses and elites spawn. The player number/density checks and spawn rates are such that someone just passing through wouldn't have any effect.

Yes if you don't mind the mobs magically appearing you can do it CoH/CoV invasion style where they just appear, but again you have the problem of people entering and leaving the PQ, who aren't actually doing the PQ, creating spawns that hang around.

For the invasions that's okay cause, well, they are invasions. The point of them is to create a sort of "last stand" scenario. For PQs people just want the loot. And having to fight through tons of extra mobs because people are griefing the area by spawning extras mobs and then fleeing isn't so great.

Edit: doing

[Trippy]

How about the giant boss monsters that were exactly five levels above everybody, all the time? Not sure if that's what Numtini meant but they were sort of like a mini-PQ that scaled: any random passerby could join in the effort and get a reward for participation.

CoH was designed from the ground up to allow people to move up and down in levels "dynamically". That's what allows them to create "Giant Monsters" and other types that "auto-scale" to the people that are fighting them. In item-centric games like your typical fantasy MMORPG that's very difficult to do.

[Sheepherder]

CoH was designed from the ground up to allow people to move up and down in levels "dynamically". That's what allows them to create "Giant Monsters" and other types that "auto-scale" to the people that are fighting them. In item-centric games like your typical fantasy MMORPG that's very difficult to do.

Give everyone free gear or a zone-wide buff that dwarfs the player's stats regardless of level, use the "Boss" mechanic (Player Level + 3 for avoidance/hit/crit calculations) seen in WoW.  What abilities and build a player has is a far greater hurdle IMO.