Warhammer Official Forums open

[Arthur_Parker]

http://forums.warhammeronline.com/  You need an active account.

vn link

lol, what? Can't even read it without an account? I spent quite some time reading the US WoW forums back when I was looking for class information. Would seem kind of silly to be locked out from reading useful informational threads.

-------

Yes, but WoW's forum is different.  It's public because WoW isn't hemorrhaging players.

The WAR "official" forums are literally a blacked out box which they're hoping will attract all the negative "fix this" and "game sucks" trolls, who they believe are trying to get their attention (which is entirely true).  Sort of how everyone migrated to VN because Jacobs started posting here (myself included, although I had an account since before VN went pay2play, so I couldn't use my actual nickname for a free account; hence this one.  It's the same reason I'm called "ETPhoneGhandi" on XBox Live, because Ghandi wouldn't let me have my Xbox Live "version 1" name for my Xbox 360 gold account, despite having the credit card, password and billing information associated with my account; so they lost my business as well).

It's the same stunt that Funcom pulled when it launched AoC, because the initial player response was SO bad, they blacked out their forums.  Once it stopped sucking so bad, and subs started picking up by positive word-of-mouth leaking out onto other forums (which in turn stabalized their churn), they opened them back up to the public.

Actually no.  Our forums are in beta right now and when they are ready, they will be open to all for reading but only for subscribers for posting.  It makes no sense to allow everyone in now to either read or post while we are "getting our feet wet" with this software.  This is the first time we've used this software and it kinda makes sense to do this in stages.     

Edit: And those who are on the forums can attest that we have a stickied 7-page thread where we are asking people for feedback on how things are set up and laid out so we can continue to improve them before they go LIVE.

Mark

Interesting times ahead.

[schild]

Logged in. They're using Lithium.

What a waste of money.

[Arthur_Parker]

Comedy old post from 03-14-2008 link.

Folks,

An unofficial timeline for official MMORPG forums:
What follows (for clarity's sake) is the kind of stuff said by players/non-players on these forums.

T minus 180 days till launch

Life is beautiful, the devs are great, the birds are merrily chirping away, oh look, there's a heretic who thinks that the game will suck, stone him, drive him off! The birds are merrily chirping away.

T minus 90 days till launch

Oh man, this game can't launch, it's not ready yet. Yes it is, no, it's not. This game is gonna tank big time. The devs suck! No they don't, things are still fine, the birds are still singing! Yeah, but they're vultures you moron!

Launch Day

This game is going to go down in flames! This game is going to rock! You devs did it! Yeah, you screwed it up! You lied to us, you cut out features! How dare you ban people from your boards, this is against our freedom of speech! Ever hear of the first amendment? The game was down for one day, I want my money back! Yeah, give me your address and I'll send you a check for 40c if you are so poor.

Launch + 60 days

Hey, this game is great! Woot! No it's not! Stone the heretic, the devs rock! Umm, when are you going to fix the bugs? You said during beta that you were going to have all these features in, where the heck are they?!? I want them and I want them now! Shutup, the game's great, the devs will get to it! I hope you and your son get in a car accident and die this Christmas Eve Mark! You guys suck! WTF? I don't care if your internet thingie was down, I want to play and I want to play now or I want my money back! Why do you have to XXXXXX patch at 3AM EST? I'm playing from XXXX and that's the only time I have to play the game. You obviously either don't give a damn about your customers or you are racist!

Launch + 120 days

We need to start a class action lawsuit! They lied to us! The servers suck, why don't you buy some more hamsters for your server farms! Hey, we love the game! We have a few questions though! Shut up! We're talking serious bizness here! I want my money back! Hey Sanya, you're hot! When the expansion coming out? What? I have to pay for an expansion too! What a ripoff! Hey, I'm all for an expansion, this game rocks! Bring it on!

Launch + forever

See above.


That's why I don't want to have official forums. Whether it was SOE, Blizzard or us, official or semi-official forums are exactly like I described above for every successful MMORPG that I have played or watched from afar (and that is *most* of them). The unsuccessful ones were even worse. The problem is that most people who read the boards are looking for information and a reasonable number of people want to cause trouble, "grief" the forums or simply get their jollies by saying and doing things that they wouldn't do in real life. As usual, a small percentage of people make life more difficult for everyone else. Back when games had hundreds of people playing, well, no big deal. We ban those guys and life returns to normal. With millions of subs for WoW and hopefully lots and lots for WAR, well, it becomes much more complicated, difficult and soul-sucking for the devs and the community people. I wouldn't want anyone to go through what Sanya and I had to go through (and she had it worse since she is a woman and that brought out the worst in some people) in the early days of DAoC. How she and other community managers put up with the kind of name calling, insults, vulgarity, profanity without losing their minds is amazing.

And yes, some of those statements were drawn exactly from what was said to us, Blizzard, etc., no exaggeration at all. And BTW, those weren't the worst things said to us or other devs of these games.

'Nuf said.

Mark

[schild]

How she and other community managers put up with the kind of name calling, insults, vulgarity, profanity without losing their minds is amazing.

Want to know how you be a community manager and not lose your mind?

Step 1: Don't be a Pussy.
Step 2: Repeat Step 1.

[Tannhauser]

You just don't understand the sensitive 'artistic' temperament that folks like Mark has. 

[schild]

You just don't understand the sensitive 'artistic' temperament that folks like Mark has. 

Funny because I used the same rules for getting an Art Studio degree.

[Morfiend]

Oh shit, im late to grinding up my forum rep. 

[Tarami]

So, by applying Mark's logic on, well, war.

It's better not have an army because just in case someone might invade, you'd have to have a war! By taking a principal decision not to have any defences in advance, you can watch neighbouring countries get burnt to the ground. While serving your new overlords. But atleast there wasn't a war when they invaded you. Except the guerilla war that will keep on raging till world's end. But atleast you didn't officially wage a war against anyone. That's what counts. And official casualty statistics. They would make your government look bad.

[Bismallah]

Bring on the forum grinding.

And as for the Mythic Community Managers, they held their own just fine. Sanya from her blog today though... pulling the plug on the discussion there since she obviously doesn't want to burn too many bridges, but a few zings in here are funny.

"Guys, I have been getting increasingly uncomfortable with this conversation. It’s a good conversation, and no one is getting psychotic. Indeed, this conversation should be held. But my blog is not the place for it, for a lot of reasons that I can’t explain.

I’m really sorry.

If you all resume the conversation somewhere else, please bear in mind that you shouldn’t be tossing around “Mythic” so casually. That might have worked back in Camelot’s heyday, since there were so few of us making up the entity of Mythic. Even then the actual decisions were made by a tiny handful of people - and incidentally, while I often disagreed with those people, I also wouldn’t try to run a company any other way.

Mythic is now a huge studio, and while the ultimate decisions for WAR are made by the Executive Producer (the same person was also the final decision maker for TOA and New Frontiers, incidentally), there are dozens of factions. There are… committees. By reducing the responsible factor to a faceless monolith with a single name, you’re overly simplifying the problems and the solutions.

Anyway, if you guys could take this fascinating chat someplace else, I’d be grateful."

Her blog is here: http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/

[Triforcer]

Did MJ ever serve up a BS reason why official forums don't contradict his previous stance, or is this the one and only instance where he just kept his gob shut? 

[Sjofn]

Logged in. They're using Lithium.

What a waste of money.

omg, I'm sure you broke the board beta NDA! 

[waffel]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/02/13/warhammer-online-devs-talk-new-expansion-dabble-in-comedy-video/

 

Are they... are they almost begging for subs at the end of the video...?

[Delmania]

Stuff

Ignoring the fact that by Jacob's standards, WAR did not deliver, none of these are good reasons for not wanting a board.  They are the only place where you can control information, and put the worst of the worst in their own forums (like the WoW PvP forum), and actually have some weight behind the whole "you're an asshat and thus are banned" sentiment.   Ever major MMO has them, even Darkfall.  They are a useful tool.  

I had to go through (and she had it worse since she is a woman and that brought out the worst in some people)

I believe studies show the reverse is true, women are treated better than me online, which is why many prominent community managers are women,  like Nethera on the WoW forums.   As for the "oh poor women", this is just blatant sexism on Jacob's part.  Neth handles the worst of them, and she seems to hold her own and not be phased by it.  Also, this Sanya, aka Tweety, we're talking about, she seems to have a tough skin.   If anything, I'd want Sanya on my team calling out the tough guys.

[Modern Angel]

WHY CAN THEY NOT JUST GIVE A NORMAL FUCKING INTERVIEW EVER?

Jesus fucking wept! Just answer some fucking questions, plug your game without orc noises LIKE EVERY OTHER REPUTABLE COMPANY EVER instead of acting like retarded man children.

[fuser]

Logged in. They're using Lithium.

What a waste of money.

What is? Lithium, or you paying to check? 

[schild]

Logged in. They're using Lithium.

What a waste of money.

What is? Lithium, or you paying to check? 

Oh snap.

[fuser]

Oh snap.

Meh, sorry it's the only cheery thing that popped into my head. I really don't get the concept of a closed community policy "testing" or what not.

It makes no sense to allow everyone in now to either read or post while we are "getting our feet wet" with this software.
...
This is the first time we've used this software and it kinda makes sense to do this in stages.

So it's not a load issue but a PR, little late no?

Note: Yeah so they are "testing" a forum but so what it's database rw + read slaves + application servers and a head load balancing. I'm sure they have good people working there.

. . asking people for feedback on how things are set up and laid out . . .

Stop that, your not going to listen anyway.

[Arthur_Parker]

Nice burn in that vn thread.

lol, what? Can't even read it without an account? I spent quite some time reading the US WoW forums back when I was looking for class information. Would seem kind of silly to be locked out from reading useful informational threads.

Beta? :)

Mark

Just like the game! 

[WindupAtheist]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/02/13/warhammer-online-devs-talk-new-expansion-dabble-in-comedy-video/

 

Are they... are they almost begging for subs at the end of the video...?

It did have a certain stink on it. Nerd mixed with fail.

"We brought hats! Yes anyway, everyone should be totally excited about our upcoming patch Dungeons of Dorkugon! There's no doubt about our survival, WAR is stronnnng!"

[Sjofn]

Stuff

Ignoring the fact that by Jacob's standards, WAR did not deliver, none of these are good reasons for not wanting a board.  They are the only place where you can control information, and put the worst of the worst in their own forums (like the WoW PvP forum), and actually have some weight behind the whole "you're an asshat and thus are banned" sentiment.   Ever major MMO has them, even Darkfall.  They are a useful tool.  

I had to go through (and she had it worse since she is a woman and that brought out the worst in some people)

I believe studies show the reverse is true, women are treated better than me online, which is why many prominent community managers are women,  like Nethera on the WoW forums.   As for the "oh poor women", this is just blatant sexism on Jacob's part.  Neth handles the worst of them, and she seems to hold her own and not be phased by it.  Also, this Sanya, aka Tweety, we're talking about, she seems to have a tough skin.   If anything, I'd want Sanya on my team calling out the tough guys.

I have read and experienced the opposite, that women are treated with giant, heaping doses of sexist bullshit, even more than in real life. Oh, there will be the creepy fawning over the vagina haver, but the second you indicate you're not interested, or if you do something "wrong," some nasty, nasty shit comes out. So, I get what Mark was saying there. It wasn't really, "Oh, poor, fragile women!" It's more like ... There's "you're a moron who doesn't know what you're doing," and then there's "You're a filthy cunt who probably fucked her way to her job and doesn't know what the fuck you're doing and no one REALLY likes you, you whore."

But this thread is about how stupid Mythic is and always will be about boards, I promise I will never defend Mark Jacobs again.    What Mark is wrong about is if they're YOUR boards, you can ban the "you're a cockgobbling bitch who fucking lies to us!" people a lot easier. But of course we all know that.

[raydeen]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/02/13/warhammer-online-devs-talk-new-expansion-dabble-in-comedy-video/

 

Are they... are they almost begging for subs at the end of the video...?

It did have a certain stink on it. Nerd mixed with fail.

"We brought hats! Yes anyway, everyone should be totally excited about our upcoming patch Dungeons of Dorkugon! There's no doubt about our survival, WAR is stronnnng!"

Yeah, ummm, I'm not sure they should have ended it with "the investment in WAR is the cheapest entertainment yer gonna get." Yeah, it's pretty cheap, just not how they meant it.

[UnSub]

I have read and experienced the opposite, that women are treated with giant, heaping doses of sexist bullshit, even more than in real life. Oh, there will be the creepy fawning over the vagina haver, but the second you indicate you're not interested, or if you do something "wrong," some nasty, nasty shit comes out. So, I get what Mark was saying there. It wasn't really, "Oh, poor, fragile women!" It's more like ... There's "you're a moron who doesn't know what you're doing," and then there's "You're a filthy cunt who probably fucked her way to her job and doesn't know what the fuck you're doing and no one REALLY likes you, you whore."

I don't doubt women are treated worse online than men as rednames - it's a grand and cruel irony that so many women appear to end up as CS, right on the front line.

However, Jacobs white knighting for Sanya appeared to be stretching the credibility somewhat regarding why they didn't need official forums.

[Mrbloodworth]

I have read and experienced the opposite, that women are treated with giant, heaping doses of sexist bullshit, even more than in real life. Oh, there will be the creepy fawning over the vagina haver, but the second you indicate you're not interested, or if you do something "wrong," some nasty, nasty shit comes out. So, I get what Mark was saying there. It wasn't really, "Oh, poor, fragile women!" It's more like ... There's "you're a moron who doesn't know what you're doing," and then there's "You're a filthy cunt who probably fucked her way to her job and doesn't know what the fuck you're doing and no one REALLY likes you, you whore."

I don't doubt women are treated worse online than men as rednames - it's a grand and cruel irony that so many women appear to end up as CS, right on the front line.

However, Jacobs white knighting for Sanya appeared to be stretching the credibility somewhat regarding why they didn't need official forums.

O'realy? <--NSFW, or anyone really.

[Arthur_Parker]

Why did you feel the need to link that on a subject about forums of all things?  It just doesn't relate to what you quoted.

[Mrbloodworth]

How is it not relevant? Shit, on that particular topic, i was guilty.

[IainC]

There are a lot, really a lot of female CMs and CROs. OCR has a higher distribution of females than pretty much any other industry field I've seen. You could ask them if they need protecting from the nasty ole internet.

[Arthur_Parker]

How is it not relevant? Shit, on that particular topic, i was guilty.

It's just got nothing to do with community relations, it's as pointless as me linking this NSFW link

[Mrbloodworth]

How is it not relevant? Shit, on that particular topic, i was guilty.

It's just got nothing to do with community relations, it's as pointless as me linking this NSFW link

It had every thing to do with community relations, and the fact she was a woman, a pretty one at that.

Lets see. "I don't doubt women are treated worse online than men as rednames" - That's related, she was a Redname.

"it's a grand and cruel irony that so many women appear to end up as CS, right on the front line"  - She was that too, may not have had the same letters attached to her name, but its basically the same in the Eyes of the public. Only, they PUT her on the front line, HOPEING the opposite would be true, because she was pretty..... See point one, that's called being treated different.

......"and then there's "You're a filthy cunt who probably fucked her way to her job and doesn't know what the fuck you're doing and no one REALLY likes you, you whore." - We have now come full circle.

[Arthur_Parker]

Are you female?  I'm not so, I'm not even going to get into the subject I know little about.  If female posters want to make some points about community relations then I'll read with interest what they have to say, but I'm not going to give much weight to what a male says on the subject.  It's fucking retarded for Mark to even bring the subject up as justification for not having official forums, being as he's male.

On the positive side, maybe Mythic can generate some interest by adding a red dress as a clothing option to WAR.

[Mrbloodworth]

Are you female?  I'm not so, I'm not even going to get into the subject I know little about.  If female posters want to make some points about community relations then I'll read with interest what they have to say, but I'm not going to give much weight to what a male says on the subject.  It's fucking retarded for Mark to even bring the subject up as justification for not having official forums, being as he's male.

On the positive side, maybe Mythic can generate some interest by adding a red dress as a clothing option to WAR.

I wasn't responding to MJ (or anything related to his justification), i was responding to Unsub.


EDIT: Oh shit, you know what, i need to drink my coffee before posting. I read "I don't doubt" as "I doubt". This may have been the root of our confusion.   

[Sheepherder]

Also, this Sanya, aka Tweety, we're talking about, she seems to have a tough skin.   If anything, I'd want Sanya on my team calling out the tough guys.

Try Being A Guide, You Nutless Assmuncher
Tweety’s first rant

Here’s some background - I’ve been a guide since March. I took a month off in protest of some seriously fucked up guide policies, and a total lack of communciation between VI and their customer service staff. I came back to discover Verant got their shit together, and now it’s the players that suck. Some of you assholes are up way past your bedtime.

Get a clue, pissants - Neither I, nor anyone else breathing actually gives a shit about how so and so stole your orc. Furthermore, no one cares that you lost the roll for whatever piece of crap weapon, because guess what? In five levels that piece of trash will be on your fourth twink and you’ll be complaining about some other l33t weapon. (Note to a_pissant00: DO you know how retarded you sound petitioning over how you were ripped off AFTER YOU ROLLED FOR IT AND LOST? What the fuck do you think I’m going to do? That’s right, genius, I’m going to ask your group TO ROLL FOR THE ITEM. If you already rolled, I’m not going to do anything but ROLL my eyes and curse the malformed sperm that somehow beat out all the healthy ones and created you in some horrible genetic accident.)

Next, the guide rezz. NOBODY over level 20 should be confused or surprised by the incredibly limited powers a guide has. I can rezz you if 1) You zoned into lava, 2) Died due to Verant crashing (not you and your dial up, VERANT), and 3) Died to a confirmed bug. Otherwise, I can’t do it. I would love to, but I can’t. I have died to plenty of un-confirmed bugs myself, I know it sucks, and I still can’t do it. It’s not all about you and how I hate you because you aren’t in an uber guild. Guess what, moron? I DON’T PLAY ON YOUR SERVER. I do not know, nor do I give two shits about the status of the guilds on your server. >Elite Cockjockeys< and >: Lords of Jizz< means exactly the same to me - NOTHING. I rezz every single person I can, because I know exactly how much losing a week’s worth of work to something not my fault sucks. If I don’t rezz you, it isn’t personal. So shut the fuck up about how I would have done it if you were a member of >Dancing Dickbeaters<.

Let’s move on to sending tells to a guide. I logged in tonight to find myself the only guide with count ‘em FORTY petitions waiting to be answered. Sorry, Mr. I can’t find my super twinked body and I’m only level 2 and a forty minute walk to my corpse. Not only do people like you disgust me on general principles, but the guy who’s been waiting for three hours stuck on a gate in Permafrost TAKES PRIORITY OVER YOU. Read the rules, dipshit. I take calls by petition, not by your sad sack tell of woe. And cussing at me, screaming at me, and telling me what a rotten person I am makes me accidentally camp out when I finally clear the monster backup and get to your whiny ass. Don’t send me tells, assholes. The ten minutes I end up wasting asking you nicely to send a petition (or if you sent one, the twenty minutes I spend telling you it’s not your turn yet) means that much longer of a wait.

Play nice policies. My personal feelings aside (lay off the wacky weed, Verant), I get to enforce it. Do you know how much I hate you at the end of a long shift? What kind of asshole thinks the king room in Lower Guk can be shared by TWO GROUPS OF 12? Conversely, what kind of screaming cocksucker thinks it’s okay to camp the king room for 36 hours? I think you both suck. The only people lamer than you are the ones that PNP over derv camps in North Ro and then act surprised when I send one group to the DESERTED derv camp a 30 second walk away.

Boats. Hey, Einstein, before you petition me that the boats are broken, do an /ooc and find out when the boat left. If it was two minutes ago, IT’S NOT HERE YET.

Quests. All I have to say to you phat lewt motherfuckers who have wrecked every quest I’ve been involved in is grow up, shut up, go back to Quake or whatever blow shit up video game you came from, and get the fuck away from the quest area. It’s your ten bucks, go somewhere and kill stuff. Why the hell do you feel compelled to ruin the once every blue moon event we have for the seven people (who ALSO pay the ten bucks) who actually want to role play?

Illiterate people. I am NOT talking about the English as a second language kids. I go through those slowly and calmly, and more than once I’ve resorted to typing /ooc Anyone in this zone speak BOTH Japanese and English? By illiterate, I mean you fucking cretins who send me petitions that read “Ur gona get my coprse rezzed, plz.” What the hell am I, psychic? How did you die, where did you die, and so on is stuff I need. If you tell me in a format I can comprehend without calling over my twelve year old neighbor, I will send you a tell that says, “Hang on, let me check out your corpse. Yep, you died to that bug all right. Here’s your rezz. Good luck, friend.” Your fucking cryptic petitions mean ten minutes of agonizingly rotten typing and stupidity that have me wondering where the hell I left my universal translator. Plus, any petition I get in dewdspeak automatically biases me against you. Why? Because it’s the d00ds that are usually trying to snow me, and get something for nothing (like a free rez for a death caused by jumping off a wizard spire with 150 HP), and who feel entitled to absolutely everything.

The only thing more annoying than dewd petitions are the ones that say “Hurp.” When I finally discover that “Hurp” means you were duelling someone named Hurp who promised not to use magic in a duel, and it turned out he had a 49th level cleric HP buff up, and you want me to use the broadcast command to tell the world what a cheater he is, I DON’T CARE ANYMORE.

Scumbags. I may not know who the uberguilds are, but I sure as hell know who the scumbags are. You’re the one who caused a dozen petitions because you were spamming the zone with “So and so is a faggot.” You’re the one who trained all the bouncers to the CT entrance just to fuck with the kids inside trying to escape the lizard train your twin brother created on purpose. You’re the one who backed a female wood elf character into a corner, calling her names and sending her foul tells. You’re the one who tricked the player with poor English skills into believing a trading a GLS for a whatever-piece-of-shit was a good trade because you were giving him a lore item. I know you. Don’t get all fucking bent because I told the GM not to change your name and let you duck your reputation. Don’t be shocked that I never rule in your favor in PNP situations. And don’t waste your time crying to another guide about how I hate you, because there are only six guides on the entire server who show up for work, and we talk.

Speaking of the aforementioned female wood elf and other forms of sexual harassment - there are two sides to this one as well. It happens. It happens a lot. Unsolicited tells, really truly disgusting emotes, and situations in which one lonely knob beater chases a female avatar from West Freeport to Emerald Jungle - it HAPPENS. You people sicken me. That said, I have very little sympathy for the person behind a character named Likkmebrestesses who types /em wants to have some fun with the brawny barbarian! and then complains when said barbarian asks if she’d like to go cyber in the hidden inn. Or my favorite, the gnomes who petition when someone says “You’re the perfect height… for a b…. eer.” Get a sense of humor already. You make it harder for people actually being harassed.

If my little hissy fit keeps ONE SINGLE IDIOT from sending a petition because he’s going to get laughed at, I did something good today. I sure as hell feel better.

Sandra

She would fit right in.

[Arthur_Parker]

EDIT: Oh shit, you know what, i need to drink my coffee before posting. I read "I don't doubt" as "I doubt". This may have been the root of our confusion.  

Yup, that would seem to explain it.

[Sjofn]

I don't doubt women are treated worse online than men as rednames - it's a grand and cruel irony that so many women appear to end up as CS, right on the front line.

However, Jacobs white knighting for Sanya appeared to be stretching the credibility somewhat regarding why they didn't need official forums.

Oh, absolutely, it's no excuse at all for not having official forums. It's like ... the OPPOSITE, really. I was just saying that "Sanya got it worse, being a woman" is not really something that surprises me at all, nor something I think was sexist to say, as it wasn't like he said, "Sanya got it worse and she cried for days because she has frail girl emotions." It more read to me like, "Sanya got it worse because the internet has a lot of idiotic misogynists on it." Which is possibly the ONLY thing about the internet he has ever understood.

And Iain, I fail to see where acknowledging that gamers can get extra nasty with female CMs means they need "protecting from the mean ole internet." It just means gamers are assholes, and usually bigger assholes to women.

[Sheepherder]

It just means gamers are assholes, and usually bigger assholes to women.

As much as it's probably an unpopular view, I don't think they attract the assholes more often, or more aggressive assholes.  Except maybe the starfuckers who are absolutely titillated by the fact that there's a girl on the other end, but that can be cured with a Myspace page and a few pictures of tubgirl.  From what I've seen the fact that they're female just allows them to be identified as a visible minority, which has obvious implications (two links there).  It's not that they're female, it's that trolls like to attack the weak point for massive damage.

[Lantyssa]

The video isn't working for me anymore.  I should probably be thankful.

I have read and experienced the opposite, that women are treated with giant, heaping doses of sexist bullshit, even more than in real life. Oh, there will be the creepy fawning over the vagina haver, but the second you indicate you're not interested, or if you do something "wrong," some nasty, nasty shit comes out. So, I get what Mark was saying there. It wasn't really, "Oh, poor, fragile women!" It's more like ... There's "you're a moron who doesn't know what you're doing," and then there's "You're a filthy cunt who probably fucked her way to her job and doesn't know what the fuck you're doing and no one REALLY likes you, you whore."

My anectdotal experience is we get more extremes.  We're treated both better and worse once it's known.