SWTOR

[Lantyssa]

An evil demon that sucked 5 years of my life away!   

You married it?

[Draegan]

What else do you think we're missing other than a release date?

LFD. 

Already has been said that it will not be in the game but will have a simple /flag system.

[UnSub]

An evil demon that sucked 5 years of my life away!   

You married it?

Nebu proposed, but DOAC said it wasn't ready to make the kind of commitment. The relationship soured from there.

[Draegan]

Sooooo.....  

What else do you think we're missing other than a release date?

What wrong choices have they made, from the stance of a poster on these boards (an old hand)? How does it compare to WoW/LOTRO/Rift? How much content is there, really? What is the endgame? Is PvP meaningful? How will it perform on my computer? How's the UI? What's broken? How polished is it, and are some areas more polished than others?

You may think you can answer those questions, but even if you religiously absorbed every leak, you really can't without playing the game and reading the beta forums. You've only got the broad strokes.

Sure, you can't tell many things without actually playing it.  However it's not in open beta yet.

I don't think you're following. What I'm trying to say is that you're making assumptions about SWTOR that may not necessarily be correct, because the game is under NDA. If you read half a page up, Draegan was saying that the NDA didn't matter because he already knew everything about the game. That is not the case.

I never said that the NDA didn't matter, I just said that we have learned a lot of facts since the beginning of the thread.

[Montague]

This thread needs more Vader:

[Sky]

I knoooow you love being snarky, but we know all of this.

Yes, I was just being snarky. You could say the thread jumped the snark some time ago. Release date is Nov 22, according to my excellent source*

Meaningful pvp? I don't know what meaningful means, but huttball looks pretty cool. I won't tempt the narwhal beyond that, though.







*ok, the official forum, based on gamestop infoes

[Surlyboi]

Fuck meaningful PvP.

There, I said it!

There's no such thing as meaningful PvP anyway.

[Kageru]

MMO PvP is another way to emphasise the value of gear in that it allows for the game to manipulated in your favor. That's also why it has a very noisy, but I don't think really that large, segment of the player base demanding it.

Looking forward to this game launching in the hopes that it will clear the space for other MMO's to emerge out of the shadow it is casting. An entertaining crash and burn and a round of "what were they thinking" would be nice too.

[Nevermore]

With as much talk as DAoC gets for having a PvP system that just 'worked', it's a wonder why they don't have as many people playing today as they did at their peak 

I would reply to this, but I was interrupted. :(

[Crumbs]

Whenever this thread ends, it should be like the end credits of Buckaroo Banzai.  Power walk.  Unity.  Jeff Goldblum dressed as a cowboy. 

[Evildrider]

Why isn't there a Buckaroo Banzai MMO?   

[Sjofn]

Fuck meaningful PvP.

There, I said it!

There's no such thing as meaningful PvP anyway.

That is part of why I just roll my eyes at the notion now. Make it too meaningful, and the losers simply stop showing up because fffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkkkk. Make it meaningless but fun, people will still do it.

Fun is the key part, really.

[Cyrrex]

Agreed...make it PvP fun.  But above all, don't fucking mess with the PvE to balance the PvP.  Down with balance!

[Surlyboi]

Why isn't there a Buckaroo Banzai MMO?   

I would SO fucking play that.

[eldaec]

Fuck meaningful PvP.

There, I said it!

There's no such thing as meaningful PvP anyway.

EVE, Daoc and GW are all solid examples of what people mean by meaningful pvp. you just have to recognise it doesn't come without distracting effort from pve and market the game accordingly.

[Sky]

Agreed...make it PvP fun.  But above all, don't fucking mess with the PvE to balance the PvP.  Down with balance!

I quoted Ohlen explaining the target types (weak/normal/strong/bbq) and he mentioned players will be considered a type. So as "stun x doesn't affect strong mobs", so it could be that they can also selectively apply effects to players. We'll see if that pans out, but they really should follow through on that, since pve and pvp rules should have a firewall.

Quote kinda got buried when everyone was being a faggot about homosexuality in TOR.

[Nebu]

I define "meaningful pvp" as pvp whose outcome has an effect on gameplay throughout the entire game.

Do I have it wrong?

[Mrbloodworth]

So, when does this come out?

[Hutch]

I define "meaningful pvp" as pvp whose outcome has an effect on gameplay throughout the entire game.

Do I have it wrong?

I think it depends on who you ask. I think there's still a segment out there that thinks "meaningful pvp" means "I can one-shot pk you anywhere in the world, and take all of your possessions. And then teabag your corpse."

[murdoc]

I look back at DAoC PvP rather fondly. It was the one game that actually got my heart pounding as I went out into the frontiers looking for a fight... that I may or may not find.

The thing that got me hooked into DAoC PvP was the community on our server. I can remember the individual names of Albions and Hibernians we fought against 9 years ago, but I can't remember the random I guy I grouped with last in WoW. PvP become "meaningful" because I recognized names, had nemesis and actually felt like I should run wood out to keeps to rebuild doors.

Now, I get mad if I was queued for more than 10 minutes for a BG. Never mind porting and trying to find a fight myself. I'd never stand for the hours we spent running around the frontiers at Skald speed trying hit and run tactics, getting steamrolled by the zerg, or not finding anyone so we'd go hammer on a keep door to try to stir up the hornets nest.

[Sky]

Now, I get mad if I was queued for more than 10 minutes for a BG. Never mind porting and trying to find a fight myself. I'd never stand for the hours we spent running around the frontiers at Skald speed trying hit and run tactics, getting steamrolled by the zerg, or not finding anyone so we'd go hammer on a keep door to try to stir up the hornets nest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

[Sobelius]

Quote kinda got buried when everyone was being a faggot about homosexuality in TOR.

Awesome. At least I now know what Louis K. would have to say about this.

[kildorn]

Fuck meaningful PvP.

There, I said it!

There's no such thing as meaningful PvP anyway.

EVE, Daoc and GW are all solid examples of what people mean by meaningful pvp. you just have to recognise it doesn't come without distracting effort from pve and market the game accordingly.

EVE: full corpse loot essentially, destroy and drive them before you style pvp gameplay.
DAOC: relics, holdable structures, realm ranks/RAs.
GW: .. arena style gameplay?


One of these things is not "meaningful pvp" in any way, the only thing they might all have in common is that the pvp is fun to participate in (I'm saying might because lolEVE)

Meaningful pvp is a silly term because meaningful varies from person to person. Anything from ranks/abilities gained via pvp to holdable territory to full corpse looting will be "meaningful" to different people.

GW's pvp is completely and utterly meaningless, it's just amusing. That plus maybe some open world holdable structure gameplay is meaningful to me. Binding any form of actual boost to the winners however usually drives my desire to play down because it's always done in a poor gameplay way where the winners keep winning and the losers just stop playing.

[Malakili]

I'm just going to say meaningful PvP is PvP that can affect the game for you even when you are not present.

[kildorn]

Affect the game how? Meaning there's a new flag on a keep, or meaning that actual resources of some form change hands?

[Malakili]

Affect the game how? Meaning there's a new flag on a keep, or meaning that actual resources of some form change hands?

A keep isn't a resource?  As an example: In WW2O, I can go to sleep, wake up, and we could've lost 3 important towns or something.  Next time I log in, the game is going to be significantly different than when I logged off because of it.

[luckton]

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916

Q: Since it has been clearly stated that there will not be dual specs for characters in the game, can you explain your philosophy behind the skill trees and how you are taking into account players that want to be able to play PvP and PvE content on the same character? - illumineart

A: Dual Speccing is something we want to add soon after launch. Also, features like Guard, PvP Taunt, Resolve, etc. work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJc5EPAyesU

[Paelos]

work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP

 

[Nebu]

I look back at DAoC PvP rather fondly. It was the one game that actually got my heart pounding as I went out into the frontiers looking for a fight... that I may or may not find.

I liked DAoC for the fact that the relics mattered.  You knew that if a strong opponent got their hands on one or both of your relics that they would make your life a living hell until you got them back.  I also enjoyed the tense feeling that came when you leveled alts in the frontiers or DF.

I want DAoC 2.0 damnit!

[luckton]

work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP

 

Apparently tank ACs will have skills like Guard and Taunt.  Guard will divert half of the damage done to whoever is being guarded to the tank, while Taunt will make all damage done by the taunted be less across the board except for the taunter.

[Nevermore]

work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP

 

Apparently tank ACs will have skills like Guard and Taunt.  Guard will divert half of the damage done to whoever is being guarded to the tank, while Taunt will make all damage done by the taunted be less across the board except for the taunter.

But... but..  WoW doesn't do that!  How can that be?! 

[Nebu]

But... but..  WoW doesn't do that!  How can that be?! 

Give it a few months.  If Bioware is anything like Trion, they'll slowly change their unique features to be more WoW-like in just a few months after release.  We can't be too original, you know.

[Paelos]

You can't balance pve and pvp skills to make them both useful. To even attempt that goal is folly.

[luckton]

You can't balance pve and pvp skills to make them both useful. To even attempt that goal is folly.

IMO, you can if you make the skills behave and actually act differently in the two situations.  Dynamic skills, as it were.  It takes time, for sure, but it's certainly a better option than having a static skill that, if it's overpowered in PvP it gets nerfed to balance it, but winds up underpowered in PvE.

[caladein]

Apparently tank ACs will have skills like Guard and Taunt.  Guard will divert half of the damage done to whoever is being guarded to the tank, while Taunt will make all damage done by the taunted be less across the board except for the taunter.

But... but..  WoW doesn't do that!  How can that be?!  

I don't understand luckton's explanation of "Taunt" but WoW has a few damage shunts, namely Soul Link and Hand of Sacrifice.

The different between Hand of Sacrifice and "Guard" is mostly one of allocation between roles (and philosophy thereof), not mechanics.