SWTOR

[Threash]

The space combat looked better than i expected.  That could definitely be the "hook" for this game that sets it apart.

[Lantyssa]

Everything in it looks like they took WoW and jampacked a SWTOR personal questing experience into it. It's really nothing to be discouraged by.

That's exactly why I'm discouraged.

[Sky]

From early on, the only thing I've been concerned about is making it too much for the WoW crowd. We'll see.

They promise support for the ultra-casual and the ultra-hardcore, but we've seen those claims in the past and we know what that means. Cool stuff for the hardcore and crap for casuals. Hey, the casuals don't need good gear and besides, they don't earn it.

[Amaron]

Hey, the casuals don't need good gear and besides, they don't earn it.

Yea this is truly my only concern.   WoW can talk about "skill" all they want but raiding with a raid guild isn't unappealing because it requires skill.  If SWTOR copies that nonsense I know I'll eventually become tired of the game no matter what.

[UnSub]

We get to find out about the end-game this week

My Force sense tells me: raids, tiered equipment and special stuff you can only craft at max lvl.

It's a risky prediction, but I'm willing to stand by it.

[Malakili]

We get to find out about the end-game this week

My Force sense tells me: raids, tiered equipment and special stuff you can only craft at max lvl.

It's a risky prediction, but I'm willing to stand by it.

Gasp.  I don't know if Bioware has what it takes to go in this genre redefining direction.

[Chimpy]

Honest question, is there anyone working as a high level designer on an MMO that did not come from the "endgame raiding = pinnacle" mold in either the way the games they have worked on before were designed or, more importantly, how they played EQ/WoW etc?

My guess is that there are few if any who go into the MMO designing business that did not come from said mold, and seeing as they were at least somewhat comfortable in that mold, what makes anyone believe they would not follow that vein in designing a new game?

[Merusk]

The ones I know of that did worked on SWG and then quit the industry.

So yeah, no other direction forthcoming.

[Threash]

What games haven't worked in that mold? Shadowbane, Daoc, SWG, UO, Warhammer are the only ones i can think and the only one of those games i'd play again would be shadowbane.

[Murgos]

We go through this at least once per big launch.

No one is going to gamble 200 million to make something 'new'.  No product in the world works that way.  You will only see real innovation in small products until the idea gains acceptance after which it becomes assimilated into the current evolution.  The most you can realistically hope for is general improvement on the previous successful iterations.

Expecting anything other than WoW in space with lasers is simply expecting to be disappointed.  That means raids, crafting, equipment tiers and etc...

[Sky]

  That means raids, crafting, equipment tiers and etc...

..shoulderpads...

[Amaron]

Honest question, is there anyone working as a high level designer on an MMO that did not come from the "endgame raiding = pinnacle" mold

It doesn't really matter if there is.   Game designers don't get to do things like say "hey we aren't going to copy WoW".   The suits fire them when they say that.

[Modern Angel]

Honest question, is there anyone working as a high level designer on an MMO that did not come from the "endgame raiding = pinnacle" mold in either the way the games they have worked on before were designed or, more importantly, how they played EQ/WoW etc?

My guess is that there are few if any who go into the MMO designing business that did not come from said mold, and seeing as they were at least somewhat comfortable in that mold, what makes anyone believe they would not follow that vein in designing a new game?

Honest counter-question: how much money has Raph Koster made people?

[Samprimary]

Everything in it looks like they took WoW and jampacked a SWTOR personal questing experience into it. It's really nothing to be discouraged by.

That's exactly why I'm discouraged.

I think it's actually good news. If you did the same sort of expansion on the MMO theme to WoW, it'd be the best change WoW had ever had — especially what with there now being a consistent and immersive level of game involvement and experience which didn't ultimately revolve around endgame content. It means that even if you are the sort of player who's really uninterested in the MMO grind, you still have this whole level of play that can make this a worthwhile experience just as if it were a singleplayer game.

[Draegan]

Heh, if you were expecting anything else, then that's just silly.

[Samprimary]

yes, and that. there's no way it wasn't going to be (to some degree or another) WoW in space.

even trying to shoehorn in that many ranged classes is risky. they like safe.

[Miasma]

WoW with a hero/renegade meter in space is fine with me, at least to buy the game and play through to max level.  Whether or not they keep me subbed with their endgame is entirely up to what they do with it.

[WindupAtheist]

Yea this is truly my only concern.   WoW can talk about "skill" all they want but raiding with a raid guild isn't unappealing because it requires skill.  If SWTOR copies that nonsense I know I'll eventually become tired of the game no matter what.

I'm firmly of the opinion that everytime some poopsock talks about the "skill" of MMO combat, some guy at a Street Fighter or FPS tournament is stricken with giggles and doesn't know why.

[Draegan]

There's degree of skill.  There is skill in raiding, and organizing and defeating new encounters.  However no where near the degree of skill needed to win a SF tournament or SC2 one.

[lamaros]

There is no real individual skill in MMO combat. It is nearly all pre-planning and numbers.

[caladein]

There's much more logistical and analytical effort involved in raiding than there is a need for straight twitch skills.  You still need them though, especially in the need to be able to think on your feet while still executing the plan you worked out before.

You're working at a slower pace than in a fighter or fast shooter and with a smaller mental checklist than in a micro-heavy RTS, but saying there's "no real individual skill" to high-end group MMO combat isn't fair.

[Merusk]

There's degree of skill.  There is skill in raiding, and organizing and defeating new encounters.  However no where near the degree of skill needed to win a SF tournament or SC2 one.

There is no real individual skill in MMO combat. It is nearly all pre-planning and numbers.

 

Oh boy this argument again!
Reflex & Memorization != Skill any more than planning and preparation. 

[Ratman_tf]

Oh boy this argument again!
Reflex & Memorization != Skill any more than planning and preparation. 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2590-Choice-and-Conflict

[WindupAtheist]

"Getting two dozen assholes to all log on at the same time, that's the real skill!"

Ahahahahaha. Sure it is champ, but only if you call it logistics. That sounds much more skillful.

[Sky]

Scheduling Coordinators are the most lucrative careers in the world, according to mmo devs.

[UnSub]

I'm firmly of the opinion that everytime some poopsock talks about the "skill" of MMO combat, some guy at a Street Fighter or FPS tournament is stricken with giggles and doesn't know why.

They're just jealous of our ability to macro. If they could, they would too. JEALOUS!

[Azuredream]

What is the definition of skill in this context? How difficult it is? How many people can do it? How much time is needed to master it?

[Murgos]

What is the definition of skill in this context? How difficult it is? How many people can do it? How much time is needed to master it?

Considering that almost anyone can do it at an acceptable level given a bit of practice and a narrow enough individual scope of responsibility, not very much.

However, you do occasionally run into someone who can perform a bit better than average which makes people think there is more skill involved than there really is.  It's just that most don't put in any effort at all so the few who are actually competent stand out.

I think eq1 enchanter was the last class I recall that actually had a real difference between a button masher and someone who knew what they were doing.  A good 'chanter and you could push well beyond the limits of what a group was supposed to be able to accomplish.

[Malakili]

There's degree of skill.  There is skill in raiding, and organizing and defeating new encounters.  However no where near the degree of skill needed to win a SF tournament or SC2 one.

There is no real individual skill in MMO combat. It is nearly all pre-planning and numbers.

 

Oh boy this argument again!
Reflex & Memorization != Skill any more than planning and preparation. 

I think the better way of thinking about isn't skill v. no skill, but the height of the skill ceilings.  To stay away from the general argument, but to illustrate my point, this is the reason that you see demomen, soldiers, and scouts in competitive TF2, they have a much higher skill ceiling than the other classes (mainly due to superior mobility).  Something like Heavy might get you loads of kills against average players, but their use is far more specialized and limited in competitive play.  Generally speaking, I think MMOs have a much lower skill ceiling than shooters or RTS games.

[caladein]

Merusk's post makes a lot more sense now.  Not everyone is defining a "skill" along the lines of "something you can learn (to do)".  I have some vague concept of what folks are using instead but... that's a horrible black hole of an argument.

So, E3!

[Sky]

So, E3!

On the one hand, I think it sucks they're now being pushed to feature lock and polish things up for release.

On the other hand, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ANNOUNCE THE FIRM RELEASE DATE AT E3!

My bet: I'll get hired at this tech firm and be working 15 hour/5 days when TOR releases. For reals. 

[Paelos]

Yes, if ever there was a time to release a date for this game, today is that day.

[Mrbloodworth]

That space combat looks so MEH.

[Lucas]

That space combat looks so MEH.

Nah, you just don't know how to party like it's 1993 again ;)

[Sky]

Yes, if ever there was a time to release a date for this game, today is that day.

My money would be on the final day of E3 with lots of hype leading up to it.