SWTOR

[waylander]

Bioware is new to the MMO scene, but I have the utmost faith in that company.

Statements like this have an awesome track record when it comes to MMOs. 

I wouldn't make that statement if this was their first gaming product. Like Blizzard, they developed several major games prior to taking on an MMO. So they go into this with a lot more experience than many others.

Yeah I'm a Bioware fanb0i, where's my fucking lightsaber?!

[amiable]

Like Blizzard, they developed several major games prior to taking on an MMO. So they go into this with a lot more experience than many others.

Yeah I'm a Bioware fanb0i, where's my fucking lightsaber?!

KOTOR - Very good game
KOTOR 2- Sucked, especially the rushed/unfinished ending.
Mass Effect - Hey lets have a hundred side quests that involve running around the same goddamn ugly ass terrain to assault bases with the exact same maps!

Aren't they also responsible for the abortion that is/was Neverwinter Nights 2?  I love D&D and I can't bring myslef to play that game because the controls/interface are so terrible.

Now Bioware+Black Isle... thts some classic stuff.  But since the Torment/BG game era they have been pretty meh.

[Stormwaltz]

KotOR2 and NWN2 were made by Obsidian.

[Hindenburg]

They have never developed a shitty product

I assume you've never played Neverwinter Nights?

[schild]

Bioware is new to the MMO scene, but I have the utmost faith in that company.

You sonofa. You're gonna make me repeat myself again, aren't you? Just because you don't want to read the thread.

As retired gaming press, you should really be more informed.

Edit: Look, this is how it is, unfortunately. Right now, Bioware Austin is like a bunch of griefers who got their names changed in an MMOG to avoid being noticed on sight as griefers. Now, they may or may not have changed and they may or may not have gotten themselves together, but until they PROVE otherwise, they are not "new to the MMO scene" or deserving of any amount of "faith." Remember, people don't really change, companies even less so.

[SnakeCharmer]

Bioware Austin as a company name is new to the MMO scene, sure.  The people that make up Bioware Austin and are tasked with lead positions, however, are not.  Look at the names I posted a page or so ago:

Gordon Walton - Studio head (SWG (tanked), The Sims Online (tanked), UO (successful because of lack of competition and being a forefather of MMOs?))
Rich Vogel - Vice President (SWG (see above), UO (see above), M59 (tanked))
Damion Schubert - Lead Combat Designer (M95 (see above), Shadowbane (to quote Haemish - sb.exe, pigfuckers), The Sims Online (see above))
Dallas Dickinson - Lead Content Designer (SWG (see above), EQ (see UO))

I'd argue that EQ and UO were successful in spite of themselves because they were new and no one knew what to expect and didn't know any better.

But nevertheless, zebras don't change their stripes.  You can't honestly say that they've all had some eureka moment in that 'Hey!  Now I get how to make non sucky MMGs!!!.   The only person that gets somewhat of a pass is Walton, who came into SWG and tried to rescue it after the fact - then bolted in '04 after *possibly* seeing how lost of a cause it was.  Looking back on it, SWG was doomed from the beginning and no amount of patching was going to slow the sinking ship.

The one name that I really kinda laugh at is Dallas Dickinson as the Lead Content Designer.  Just how much content did SWG have while he was there?  Pretty much none.

[eldaec]

I heard MDK2 was pretty good - so this should be too.

[Venkman]

Bioware is new to the MMO scene, but I have the utmost faith in that company.

You sonofa. You're gonna make me repeat myself again, aren't you? Just because you don't want to read the thread.

I had a good laugh. I was about ready to invoke EDMONTON for ya, but realized I was a page behind 

No new infoz at all. Anyone expect anything at E3? Anyone care?

[schild]

Bioware Austin as a company name is new to the MMO scene, sure.  The people that make up Bioware Austin and are tasked with lead positions, however, are not.  Look at the names I posted a page or so ago:

Gordon Walton - Studio head (SWG (tanked), The Sims Online (tanked), UO (successful because of lack of competition and being a forefather of MMOs?))
Rich Vogel - Vice President (SWG (see above), UO (see above), M59 (tanked))
Damion Schubert - Lead Combat Designer (M95 (see above), Shadowbane (to quote Haemish - sb.exe, pigfuckers), The Sims Online (see above))
Dallas Dickinson - Lead Content Designer (SWG (see above), EQ (see UO))

I'd argue that EQ and UO were successful in spite of themselves because they were new and no one knew what to expect and didn't know any better.

But nevertheless, zebras don't change their stripes.  You can't honestly say that they've all had some eureka moment in that 'Hey!  Now I get how to make non sucky MMGs!!!.   The only person that gets somewhat of a pass is Walton, who came into SWG and tried to rescue it after the fact - then bolted in '04 after *possibly* seeing how lost of a cause it was.  Looking back on it, SWG was doomed from the beginning and no amount of patching was going to slow the sinking ship.

The one name that I really kinda laugh at is Dallas Dickinson as the Lead Content Designer.  Just how much content did SWG have while he was there?  Pretty much none.

I'm almost tempted to take a picture of this and turn it into a giant emote called :austinware: or :zebras:

[waylander]

Bioware is new to the MMO scene, but I have the utmost faith in that company.

You sonofa. You're gonna make me repeat myself again, aren't you? Just because you don't want to read the thread.

As retired gaming press, you should really be more informed.

This thread is 17 pages long, and I've read it and seen the arguments. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong, but in this case I think its one of those "in the eye of the beholder" perspectives.  I've played most Bioware games, and they were all great. Bioware has never produced a massive MMO where thousands of people are on the same server playing together, but neither had Blizzard when they made WoW.  But both companies had a good track record of making good games prior to jumping into MMO's.

They could very well release their MMO and its plagued with all sorts of problems. But since I'm 99% jaded towards all other dev studios, I like to hold out that 1% ray of hope for Bioware. 

Now I've seen the arguments about whether this game is going to be GW/Diablo, LotRo, etc but it doesn't really sound like anyone truly knows. All we know is that the game will have individual story arcs, there's going to be some multi-play component, and no one really knows much about the community component. The more details I get the more happy or skeptical I will get as well, but thus far I haven't seen anything that would make me lose faith in this company.

[Draegan]

The point is look who's in charge of making the game.   

[schild]

but in this case I think its one of those "in the eye of the beholder" perspectives.

But it's not. What the hell are you talking about?

[Sky]

I think waylander has lost his mind. 99% jaded by other devs? Bioware Austin /ARE/ those other devs! It's more like if Blizzard had hired McQuaid to make WoW. You can't QA your way out of a shitsack.

Now, if Bioware had made an in-house mmo (I don't consider austinware in-house, really, they're mercs), using the team that made BG2, I'd love it. It would be heavily story-based, fully instanced and awesome. And mmogtards would hate it for not being enough of an mmo (as if that ever really makes a game better).

So SWTOR will probably be just enough of a compromise between what Austinware wants to do and what Bioware advises them to do, that it will suck for both folks like me and also the mmogtards. You've got to embrace the niche from the design doc and funding stages or you fail.

[rk47]

Mmmm throwing the argument of faction imbalance to a friend of mine about the usual 'too many sith, too little jedi players'. He mused 'maybe that problem wouldn't crop up if the Sith are allowed to backstab each other just like how it turned out in KOTOR1'

Perhaps it's worth considering, but I'm still doubtful.

[Lucas]

Now, if Bioware had made an in-house mmo (I don't consider austinware in-house, really, they're mercs), using the team that made BG2, I'd love it. It would be heavily story-based, fully instanced and awesome. And mmogtards would hate it for not being enough of an mmo (as if that ever really makes a game better).

Well, regarding the quoted paragraph, lead designer is James Olhen, who was Director of Writing and Design of Baldur's Gate I, II and Knights of the Old Republic I; dunno if it was mentioned in here, but supposedly Karpyshyn, lead writer of Mass Effect, has temporarily joined the project as well.

So, at least on the story/lore/writing side of the project (which should be a prominent aspect, in their words), we should expect something of decent value; now, regarding the overall design/fun value...heh

[Merusk]

Mmmm throwing the argument of faction imbalance to a friend of mine about the usual 'too many sith, too little jedi players'. He mused 'maybe that problem wouldn't crop up if the Sith are allowed to backstab each other just like how it turned out in KOTOR1'

Perhaps it's worth considering, but I'm still doubtful.

Heh, so Sith are FFApvp but Jedi are Between-Realm only PVP? That'd be interesting.

[HaemishM]

So, at least on the story/lore/writing side of the project

Story in MMOG...

The truth points to itself. Even LotRO with its vast amount of stories has to rely on a decent game (which it wasn't at release).

[Stormwaltz]

supposedly Karpyshyn, lead writer of Mass Effect, has temporarily joined the project as well.

Permanently; his last day here is Friday.

He was also the lead writer of ME2, and was the guy who let you Force-persuade Zalbaar to kill Mission.

[Merusk]

Then buy that man a beer from me. 

[Sky]

Permanently; his last day here is Friday.

He was also the lead writer of ME2, and was the guy who let you Force-persuade Zalbaar to kill Mission.

So...not only will the mmo feature crappy mmo gameplay from "experienced" mmo vets, but it'll clear out the talent from the good arm of Bioware, too? Fuck.

Hate to sound so negative, because I srsly love Bioware, but I have a baaad feeling about this...

[amiable]

KotOR2 and NWN2 were made by Obsidian.

So they sub-licensed their valuable and successful IP to a developer who turned out shit-on-a-stick.  This does not fill me with confidence.

[Koyasha]

After which they proceeded to make other successful games using their own IP rather than licensed IP.  Seems like a solid decision.

Also, it's reasonably likely that Obsidian would have done a good job with KOTOR2 had Lucasarts not pushed them to release a title that was in development for less than a year, if I remember correctly.  Not that I'll defend KOTOR2, it's a half-finished game at best, but the blame definitely lies with LA, because it's clear that the parts of the game that got reasonably well done rather shine.  These are, after all, many of the old Black Isle people.

[DayDream]

hey, does anyone know who exactly is in charge of NWN1's online component?  I seem to remember Blizzard getting some practice for WoW on the technical front by running battle.net.  It still went nuclear at launch for popular servers, but it was technically sound, as I remember it.

Not that that will save a game from poor design and worse execution, but it may shade the level of failure it one direction or another.

[Zane0]

KOTOR 2 is both an unfinished piece of shit and the best thing to come out of the Star Wars property since JK2.

[Aez]

What's up with all the bashing?  Relax, it's made by Bioware.  If any company can pull this off, it's them!

edit : bah. no one bite 

[cmlancas]

but in this case I think its one of those "in the eye of the beholder" perspectives.

But it's not. What the hell are you talking about?

But schild, they've made so many mistakes they have to get it right this time, right?  RIGHT?!

[amiable]

After which they proceeded to make other successful games using their own IP rather than licensed IP.  Seems like a solid decision.

"Hey guys, instead of continuing to develop:

A.  the most popular science fiction franchise in the history of the universe and
B.  the most popular role playing system in the history of the universe.
C.  Both of  which were amazingly successful, have an enormous audience and could have built a franchise that would have lasted for a decade.   

Instead, let's go over here and ride bikes/make generic fantasy and sci-fi settings of our own.  Surely they will be as popular as these beloved classics."

Viva jade empire!!!!

[UnSub]

After which they proceeded to make other successful games using their own IP rather than licensed IP.  Seems like a solid decision.

Considering the title and subject of this thread: perhaps not.

[Stormwaltz]

it'll clear out the talent from the good arm of Bioware, too? Fuck.

Of course not!

I'm still here.





¬_¬

[Sky]

I'm still here.

LOOOK OUT, BEHIND YOU!

IT'S AN MMO!

[Kovacs]

...it's a half-finished game at best, but the blame definitely lies with LA, because it's clear that the parts of the game that got reasonably well done rather shine...

hmm....

And is there a list somewhere of MMO's that haven't {Tanked} or {Succeeded despite itself}?  Is it a list of one?  I just ask, A. because I'm curious if there's a decent MMO I should be playing and 2. I'd wonder if that would mean that every developer that didn't work on that title would be at best, DevX (MMOY {Tanked}) but did some decent work, or you know, Hartsmann.   He sucks, it sucked, seems to be the universal theme and given the number of new titles being announced/pre-reviewed it seems I would have come across at least one "Holy christ that guys awesome, this new title's going to be grrrrreat!" Yes Tony the Tiger, no I'm unapologetic.

Anyway, I really don't have any skin in this game as I'm pretty sure that SWTOR, the new Massive Single Player Online Game (rushed out of the studio by LucasArts half done X3 TM) is probably not going to get my money, just curious really.

[Modern Angel]

We're missing the obvious here. Star Wars fucking sucks. It's objectively terrible. Hence, a game based on Star Wars is doomed to suck goat nuts.

[schild]

We're missing the obvious here.

No one is missing that. The few good SW games have been outliers. And the people that like the movies are being nostalgic. I've tried going back and watching them, but even the first 3 are pretty cringeworthy most of the time.

The problem is that most sci-fi is even worse than Star Wars, so we're left with slim pickings.

[ashrik]

...it's a half-finished game at best, but the blame definitely lies with LA, because it's clear that the parts of the game that got reasonably well done rather shine...

hmm....

And is there a list somewhere of MMO's that haven't {Tanked} or {Succeeded despite itself}?  Is it a list of one?  I just ask, A. because I'm curious if there's a decent MMO I should be playing and 2. I'd wonder if that would mean that every developer that didn't work on that title would be at best, DevX (MMOY {Tanked}) but did some decent work, or you know, Hartsmann.   He sucks, it sucked, seems to be the universal theme and given the number of new titles being announced/pre-reviewed it seems I would have come across at least one "Holy christ that guys awesome, this new title's going to be grrrrreat!" Yes Tony the Tiger, no I'm unapologetic.

Anyway, I really don't have any skin in this game as I'm pretty sure that SWTOR, the new Massive Single Player Online Game (rushed out of the studio by LucasArts half done X3 TM) is probably not going to get my money, just curious really.

You should try Warhammer Online, it's pretty good and is generally looked at as the way to do MMO gaming "right".

[schild]

Not even in sarcasm should one be baited to "trying" WAR with the grind it has. It is, in fact, the definition of doing gaming wrong. MMO gaming is just a mess and should only be addressed as such.