What went wrong.

[Riggswolfe]

You are kinda overblowing the problems WOW had. Believe it or not, and yes I am a stud, but I was there too. Some queues, some loot lag problems, some servers were fucked. I was still extremely hooked. Can the same be said for most people one month into WAR?

Guess they shoulda beta tested the thing before launching it.

Rose colored glasses. I still remember having to get free time from Blizzard because Wow was nearly unplayable with its issues at launch. I also remember furious fights on the forums about "this game wasn't ready, it needed more beta testing!" And "can Blizzard fix the game before it's too late?"

The IP saved WOW. I'm sorry but it did. The game was well designed in most ways but they made serious mistakes that nearly cost them everything in the launch. I played the game for about a year and a half but I almost didn't make it past launch because the game was in such bad shape.

[Nevermore]

It depended a lot on what server you were on.  Some servers were hammered hard early on, but the one I played on didn't have very many problems.  Still got the free time, though! 

[Scadente]

I'm probably just regurgitating stuff people have said before, but heres my two cents:

- Three "XP" bars to fill.
This is the first thing that jumped at me as I logged in... wtf? Isn't one enough to start with?

- Tome of Silliness
Was it supposed to be useful? I couldn't find any information on anything I needed in there, just some silly titles and statistics.

- Open Party/PQs
The PQs worked a few times for me, when we got enough people together, but what prevented this from being exceptional is that there is NO incentive, bar grinding from gear, to do these PQs. Sure I don't read EVERYTHING, but I have nothing invested in this quest except some extra XP bar. And noone chats... EVER

- Bland Gameplay
The classes felt somewhat unique, but it was just Tank-DPS-Heal setup (basically). Essentially all classes boiled down into: "Use A,B and C to fill X with Y to be able to use Z, W or Q". No mana bar just means: SPAM AWAY! I seldom had to carefully think how I should layer my skills, just spam spam spam. (I didn't try ALL the classes, but got a WP to 10 and a Black Orc to 11), aswell as minor testing with other classes.

- Jerky and floaty
The game didn't feel finished at all. The animation is terrible, characters float around and don't seem solid at all. It might be the netcode or just people with "Three start ability and FIVE STAR DRIVE!!!! ".

- Horrid and Bland Art
Yes, it looks.... GRAY AND BROWN. And animation is so deeply entrenched in the uncanny valley that I never ever want to go there again.

In short; this game wasn't really up to scratch, much like AoC, and deserved somewhat to fail.

Even though, in many ways, they tried to innovate, they didn't really pull the right punches, and the Core of their game was simply to broken or to weak.

I hope they get more fleshed out in six months time, when it would be fun to take another look at them.

[Nebu]

Seems to me that there is a huge difference in the development approach to pve and pvp titles.  Pve are all about content and AI.  PvP are far more concerned with mechanics and performance. 

You could strip WAR down to an open battlefield and interesting player classes with solid combat mechanics and the game would still be fun.  My real issue with the game was that they spent such a large amount of their time/budget on content and missed the boat on mechanics/performance.  Had they streamlined mechanics, classes, population balance, and pvp incentives, the subscriber base would have forgiven a lack of pvp and world content.  Contraction is a much harder goal than expansion and this is being clearly illustrated. 

[Shatter]

I'm probably just regurgitating stuff people have said before, but heres my two cents:

- Three "XP" bars to fill.
This is the first thing that jumped at me as I logged in... wtf? Isn't one enough to start with?

- Tome of Silliness
Was it supposed to be useful? I couldn't find any information on anything I needed in there, just some silly titles and statistics.

- Open Party/PQs
The PQs worked a few times for me, when we got enough people together, but what prevented this from being exceptional is that there is NO incentive, bar grinding from gear, to do these PQs. Sure I don't read EVERYTHING, but I have nothing invested in this quest except some extra XP bar. And noone chats... EVER

- Bland Gameplay
The classes felt somewhat unique, but it was just Tank-DPS-Heal setup (basically). Essentially all classes boiled down into: "Use A,B and C to fill X with Y to be able to use Z, W or Q". No mana bar just means: SPAM AWAY! I seldom had to carefully think how I should layer my skills, just spam spam spam. (I didn't try ALL the classes, but got a WP to 10 and a Black Orc to 11), aswell as minor testing with other classes.

- Jerky and floaty
The game didn't feel finished at all. The animation is terrible, characters float around and don't seem solid at all. It might be the netcode or just people with "Three start ability and FIVE STAR DRIVE!!!! ".

- Horrid and Bland Art
Yes, it looks.... GRAY AND BROWN. And animation is so deeply entrenched in the uncanny valley that I never ever want to go there again.

In short; this game wasn't really up to scratch, much like AoC, and deserved somewhat to fail.

Even though, in many ways, they tried to innovate, they didn't really pull the right punches, and the Core of their game was simply to broken or to weak.

I hope they get more fleshed out in six months time, when it would be fun to take another look at them.

Quite possibly the worst review of WH I have ever seen, did you even play the game?   Your comparison of WH to AOC which was a massive dismal failure isnt even close to a usable comparison.  Please stick to your day job, although based on this review you probably dont do very well either. 

[ghost]

Seems to me that there is a huge difference in the development approach to pve and pvp titles.  Pve are all about content and AI.  PvP are far more concerned with mechanics and performance. 

You could strip WAR down to an open battlefield and interesting player classes with solid combat mechanics and the game would still be fun.  My real issue with the game was that they spent such a large amount of their time/budget on content and missed the boat on mechanics/performance.  Had they streamlined mechanics, classes, population balance, and pvp incentives, the subscriber base would have forgiven a lack of pvp and world content.  Contraction is a much harder goal than expansion and this is being clearly illustrated. 

Have you played the Witching Night PQs?  Because that is basically what the PQ was-  an open battlefield.

it wasn't fun.

[tazelbain]

I have had some fun with the WNPQ, but it suffers population problems that everything else does.  Still no reason for the losing team to stick around. In fact it continues the best defense: leave and deny the enemy rp/kills.

[ghost]

I have had some fun with the WNPQ, but it suffers population problems that every else does.  Still no reason for the losing team to stick around. In fact it continues the best defense: leave and deny the enemy rp/kills.

Yeah, but my god man.  Is that what the end game is?  Really? 

There is absolutely no skill involved with this and it turns into the biggest grindfest ever, particularly with the diminishing rr and XP rewards with recently killed people.

[tazelbain]

Ya, the victory point system is completely broken.  If they are going to make it work, they need to get a professional mathematician in there to help.  It is crucial yet they don't have a clue.

[ghost]

You know, this will sound weird, but I think part of the problem is that so many damned things are linked together in this game.  All of this is supposed to spit out VPs or whatever, but nobody has any clue how it works.  I don't even think Mythic fully knows due to the complexity. 

Anyway, now that WH PQ is done it is back to gank and spank.  Yee haw.

[Hindenburg]

There is absolutely no skill involved with this and it turns into the biggest grindfest ever, particularly with the diminishing rr and XP rewards with recently killed people.

In theory, skill will come from organizing zergs and enforcing tactical positiong for maximum advantage.

In practice, the vast majority will go "fuck this, lets zerg".

[Sophismata]

They needed solid mechanics and a really good game underlying their PvP play. Everything else would have been gravy - the PvE content a bonus.

Sadly, it seems they've tried to split their attention, do everything, and succeed at nothing. The PvP often strikes me as overwhelmingly mediocre - occasionally you can see flashes of brilliance, but they're buried under piles of shit.

As a result, what should be the most important part of the game often feels clunky and aimless...

[CecilDK]

One thing I wasn't as worried about before was the city siege, as that was supposed to be the ultimate carrot for working hard to control the other faction's city.  But from what I've heard about Volkmar Order's lockdown of Inevitable City, it sounds like there are some serious flaws in the way it was implemented.

It took a dedicated alliance of Order most of two days just to get to the point of being able to lock down IC, which included controlling every T3 and T4 zone, having groups constantly in PQ's and in scenarios and defending keeps all over the place  Furthermore, the way the content works is that when the zone before the fortress falls, you have one hour to take it.  And then, all the steps after that are timed for directly afterwards---6 hours to do PQ's to lock down the city---2 hours to finish two difficult PQ's (which apparently have huge gear checks built into them)---and surely some after that, though this group didn't get that far.  Which means that if you want to take a city you had better be prepared to both grind PQ's as well as stick with it for a long number of hours.

It just sounds grueling in a way that doesn't sound fun--not just because of the gear check, but because of the time limits built in that don't allow people to take breaks. 

[rk47]

There is absolutely no skill involved with this and it turns into the biggest grindfest ever, particularly with the diminishing rr and XP rewards with recently killed people.

In theory, skill will come from organizing zergs and enforcing tactical positiong for maximum advantage.

In practice, the vast majority will go "fuck this, lets zerg".

i already discovered how to win as destro. but nobody would listen.

Have all the rank 35 and above chosens in the server gather together within 30 ft of each other. Have them equip the following tactics: Dire Shielding, Baneful Shielding and Focused offense. Turn on the Discordant Fluctuation Aura. When you see a zerg, turn on Baneshield. Stand still and watch the BW kill themselves with detonate.

[dd0029]

I believe that the biggest thing that hits me as I continue to play is that this game is not sufficiently different from WoW for them to have learned or tried to refine so few things.  They refined the finding a group mechanic, they added the que from anywhere scenario and the developed the PQ idea.  Just about everything else though seems to be a growth out of even older games.  Games that WoW has already stolen from and refined.  I look at the WotLK focus on raid wide things and I wonder why Warhammer does not have a similar focus.  Everything out there is telling you to get into a warband and yet, once you are in it you are still just a group within a larger group that you can't really affect with your abilities.

[WindupAtheist]

Rose colored glasses. I still remember having to get free time from Blizzard because Wow was nearly unplayable with its issues at launch. I also remember furious fights on the forums about "this game wasn't ready, it needed more beta testing!" And "can Blizzard fix the game before it's too late?"

The IP saved WOW. I'm sorry but it did. The game was well designed in most ways but they made serious mistakes that nearly cost them everything in the launch. I played the game for about a year and a half but I almost didn't make it past launch because the game was in such bad shape.

I remember I went to this restaurant and the line was wrapped around the building three times, and I said to my date, this wait is totally unacceptable when I could walk into McDonald's and eat in five minutes, I bet this restaurant is doomed.

[Azazel]

You are kinda overblowing the problems WOW had. Believe it or not, and yes I am a stud, but I was there too. Some queues, some loot lag problems, some servers were fucked. I was still extremely hooked. Can the same be said for most people one month into WAR?

Guess they shoulda beta tested the thing before launching it.

Rose colored glasses. I still remember having to get free time from Blizzard because Wow was nearly unplayable with its issues at launch. I also remember furious fights on the forums about "this game wasn't ready, it needed more beta testing!" And "can Blizzard fix the game before it's too late?"

The IP saved WOW. I'm sorry but it did. The game was well designed in most ways but they made serious mistakes that nearly cost them everything in the launch. I played the game for about a year and a half but I almost didn't make it past launch because the game was in such bad shape.

Incorrect. Neither I nor any of my friends really cared about warcraft past WC2. We played EQ1, and the comparison, especially to Gates of Discord-Era EQ, even with WoW's launch instability was much more flattering to WoW than to EQ.

[Pringles]

I think the only people who say Warcraft's launch was worse are people who weren't there or are filled with Warcraft-hate.

I don't even play the game anymore but I know first hand it wasn't as bad as people say. Even if it was, I still wanted to login every day and don't remember any problems except for loot lag.  Well, I also didn't pick one of those crash daily high population servers either.

[Hawkbit]

I've played on Earthen Ring since launch.  Highest population RP server, major problems all around.  The fact is, it was nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.  Sure, there were nights (even a 36 hour period) where the server was down.  Blizzard compensated us more often than not, and sure, I was often bummed to not be able to play my game.  But it really wasn't as bad as some make it out to be. 

[khaine]

MJ keeps saying they chose the better option of opening too many servers to avoid queues , he acts like queues to login are the worst possible thing that could happen ,

Yes , its far better to be allowed to immediately login to a barren wasteland and realize there's not a damn thing to do

So far , post launch , MJ and Mythic are approaching , maybe even surpassing , Funcom level stupidity as far as post launch decisions/comments  go

Which I just didnt think possible , I thought for sure they would have learned lessons from recent past mistakes of other companies

But , yeah , just wait , as Mythic says , in a year look at them because they'll be HUGE then , after all , mmorpg gamers today are so forgiving and flock to a game a year after launch

[UnSub]

Actually, when I looked at the numbers for MMO subscriptions (yeah, yeah - SirBruce, but where else you going to go?)  is that there is a bump about 3 to 6 months after launch. By that point all the early people have blew through it and decided to stay or not, the community has stabilised somewhat and new people are checking out things once most of the launch bugs have been ironed out.

But after that point, it is generally a slow decline.

[Jherad]

It took a dedicated alliance of Order most of two days just to get to the point of being able to lock down IC, which included controlling every T3 and T4 zone, having groups constantly in PQ's and in scenarios and defending keeps all over the place  Furthermore, the way the content works is that when the zone before the fortress falls, you have one hour to take it.  And then, all the steps after that are timed for directly afterwards---6 hours to do PQ's to lock down the city---2 hours to finish two difficult PQ's (which apparently have huge gear checks built into them)---and surely some after that, though this group didn't get that far.  Which means that if you want to take a city you had better be prepared to both grind PQ's as well as stick with it for a long number of hours.

I play on Volkmar. I didn't do the invasion, as it put me in a queue for IC, which still hadn't popped 30 mins later, so binned it. However - I was listening to others in my guild do it on vent - apparently contribution from the PQs was purely on when you zoned in. In other words, first person in placed 1st for contribution until then left, second placed second etc. People were listing their contribution rankings, and they were moving up steadily as people left.

Awesome.

[eldaec]

Actually, when I looked at the numbers for MMO subscriptions (yeah, yeah - SirBruce, but where else you going to go?)  is that there is a bump about 3 to 6 months after launch. By that point all the early people have blew through it and decided to stay or not, the community has stabilised somewhat and new people are checking out things once most of the launch bugs have been ironed out.

But after that point, it is generally a slow decline.

It's about 3-6 months in that everyone decides they need a buffbot/pet healer/cyno alt/relic keep spy/whatever.

Some games keep growing (EVE, EQ), most don't.

[WitchKiller]

Actually, when I looked at the numbers for MMO subscriptions (yeah, yeah - SirBruce, but where else you going to go?)  is that there is a bump about 3 to 6 months after launch. By that point all the early people have blew through it and decided to stay or not, the community has stabilised somewhat and new people are checking out things once most of the launch bugs have been ironed out.

But after that point, it is generally a slow decline.

It's about 3-6 months in that everyone decides they need a buffbot/pet healer/cyno alt/relic keep spy/whatever.

Some games keep growing (EVE, EQ), most don't.

  You guys are both turkeys.  Wait until you see the sub numbers explode once players start filling in Tier 5:

   http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187723

   http://realmwar.warhammeronline.com/realmwar/CharacterInfo.war?id=62058&server=229

[syd]

Utter, utter lack of testing pvp really is beginning to shine through. At least with DAoC they had the excuse that they were new to the genre, but at this point it's embarrassing that they pass off a bunch of pve-centric skills in a pvp setting. For better or worse the massive number of classes in DAoC diluted skills enough that you didn't have anything ridiculous. WHO though? You have a bunch of completely ridiculous setups that becomes extremely obvious that no one actually tried pvp'ing in beta for any length of time. I'm just sort of twiddling my thumbs waiting for the game to finish imploding -- I guess WoW will do it this week.

[rk47]

3 gold bag change for keeps turned destro warband into trading caps with Order.

There is now zero incentive to defend. 

[UnSub]

  You guys are both turkeys.  Wait until you see the sub numbers explode once players start filling in Tier 5:

   http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187723

   http://realmwar.warhammeronline.com/realmwar/CharacterInfo.war?id=62058&server=229

Clearly Mythic have everything under control.

[Fordel]

That dude beat the game. 

[Goreschach]

Level 41 dude takes 1st in a keep siege by pecking doors for 1 damage, dying repeatedly.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188631

[schild]

Level 41 dude takes 1st in a keep siege by pecking doors for 1 damage, dying repeatedly.

This sums up the game perfectly.

[Driakos]

He pulls 6th place... as a chicken.

You can't make that shit up.

[schild]

He pulls 6th place... as a chicken.

You can't make that shit up.

6th place I could see. Bonuses could get you there. But first place? Har.

[UnSub]

He pulls 6th place... as a chicken.

You can't make that shit up.

6th place I could see. Bonuses could get you there. But first place? Har.

I linked it elsewhere, but players suspect a bug that sees the loot order for keeps awarded in reverse contribution order. So the less you contribute, the better your chance of getting a gold bag.

[Arthur_Parker]

There's maybe a bug but it's not a simple reverse order thing.  I did 6 keeps last night, did slightly more damage each time and moved up the rankings before the dice roll each time to finally finish 3rd.

[Rondaror]

3 gold bag change for keeps turned destro warband into trading caps with Order.

There is now zero incentive to defend. 

They really try hard to copy that crap, called open PvP system, from WoW. More and more it appears to me, that the glorious RvR system in DAoC wasn't developed on purpose...it just happened through accident.
Or they do still feel, that the WoW players do need to have all the fucked up WoW mechanics as well in WAR.