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Author Topic: Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!  (Read 83177 times)
Draegan
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Reply #420 on: December 30, 2008, 07:55:16 AM

Just stopping by to say hello. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Nice thread.
Sophismata
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Reply #421 on: December 30, 2008, 12:04:34 PM

When the hell did my brown name and "User Error" title go away? It could have been weeks, I just now noticed. But now that I have noticed, I miss them.  cry
It's recent. Only just noticed it now, too.

"You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you." - WindupAtheist
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #422 on: December 30, 2008, 06:14:14 PM

They'll be sorry when they see what I do to get it back.

"HOW I MAEK POAST WERK?!"

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Lantyssa
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Reply #423 on: December 30, 2008, 08:30:32 PM

Careful, they might do something screwy and make your name a dark grey.  Or be really mean and make it almost the same white, so it's different, but no one notices.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
angry.bob
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We're no strangers to love. You know the rules and so do I.


Reply #424 on: December 30, 2008, 08:58:51 PM

Responding to a bunch of pages as numbered points:

1) Neither Kazutaka Miyatake nor Shoji Kawamori, or anyone involved with Macross sold or allowed FASA to use art assets. FASA stole every mech and dropship design in the original rules from Macross, Dougram, and Crusher Joe. Half the stuff in Aerotech was stolen as well. FASA got the art under license from Twentieth Century Imports, a toy importer, who claimed they had the right to license them. However, a bit later when Carl Macek and Harmony Gold got Macross for Robotech from Tatsunoko they also got the rights for everything but the Japanese import model kits. As far as I know, the rights to Dougram or Crusher joe stuff was never really dealt with, but from all appearances TCI's only support for being able to license the stuff is that they never thought it would be licensed by the companies that actually owned them.

2) Power Armor is the future of absolutely nothing except maybe for police and science fiction/games. There's no way to put enough armor on a suit to protect against missles, large calibers, or high velocity weapons. Even if they didn't penetrate the armor or make a big chunk spall off the inside and bounce around, they don't have any way of protecting the wearer by absorbing and dissipating the energy of a 1kg projectile going from 2000m/s to 0m/s against the suit. You'd open the suit up to just find goo.

3) Mechs are fucking stupid for real world use and Battletech rules are horrible, horrible shit - especially regarding vehicles. If for whatever reason you want to pretend that x inches of armor in 6 pieces with mostly exposed vulnerable and [relatively] delicate joints operated by motors and hydraulics requiring a myriad of gyroscopes to operate is somehow more robust than the same amount of armor in a one piece slab, you're a fucking retard.

4) The coolest German tank of WW2 isn't the Maus, or even the E-100. It's the P-1000 Ratte Landkreuzer. At 1000 tons, it's main turret was a modified Gneisenau class battlecruiser turret with 2 SchiffsKanone C/28 naval guns. "Secondary defenses" were multiple Maus turrets and antiaircraft batteries, probably Ostwind turrets. It's armor was to range from 200mm to 180mm thick to make immune to anything but another naval gun, and instead of a single track on each side like a normal tank, it's weight rested on three 1.2 meter wide treads on each side. It had a ground clearance of 2 meters and was tall enough to ford rivers rather than use bridges. Krupps proposed it in 1942 and Hitler loved it so much he ordered it into production immediately. Unfortunately, noted non-retard Albert Speer went "WTF?" and scrapped the thing in 1943 after only the turret had been built (supposedly). There was a P-1500 Monster Landkreuzer as well, but I don't think it even got started on and it was really nothing more than a railway gun on a giant Wespe looking tank.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Merusk
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Reply #425 on: December 30, 2008, 10:35:01 PM

Speer scrapped it?

Wtf?  He was an Architect. Why the fuck did he get a say on anything military, much less the ability to scrap a project?  swamp poop

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #426 on: December 30, 2008, 10:49:17 PM


4) The coolest German tank of WW2 isn't the Maus, or even the E-100. It's the P-1000 Ratte Landkreuzer. At 1000 tons, it's main turret was a modified Gneisenau class battlecruiser turret with 2 SchiffsKanone C/28 naval guns. "Secondary defenses" were multiple Maus turrets and antiaircraft batteries, probably Ostwind turrets. It's armor was to range from 200mm to 180mm thick to make immune to anything but another naval gun, and instead of a single track on each side like a normal tank, it's weight rested on three 1.2 meter wide treads on each side. It had a ground clearance of 2 meters and was tall enough to ford rivers rather than use bridges. Krupps proposed it in 1942 and Hitler loved it so much he ordered it into production immediately. Unfortunately, noted non-retard Albert Speer went "WTF?" and scrapped the thing in 1943 after only the turret had been built (supposedly). There was a P-1500 Monster Landkreuzer as well, but I don't think it even got started on and it was really nothing more than a railway gun on a giant Wespe looking tank.

Holy fuck. I'd never heard of this, and I was a bit of a WWII buff for a while. This thing is fucking insane!



ps. Epic thread for geek factor. I wasted most of a workday on it today, particularly on the SW vs. ST sections. Well Done all!!!

EDIT: Oh and that tank is insane in the "OMG Hitler has syphilis "  not "OMG so cool".

Coolest tank of WWII IMO was the Panther. Just your every day tank, not a Tiger or King Tiger but more advanced than previous Panzers. The Russkis had some good tanks too but the Panther is just the epitome of tankiness.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 10:57:38 PM by squirrel »

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Ubvman
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Reply #427 on: December 30, 2008, 11:12:37 PM

4) The coolest German tank of WW2 isn't the Maus, or even the E-100. It's the P-1000 Ratte Landkreuzer. At 1000 tons, it's main turret was a modified Gneisenau class battlecruiser turret with 2 SchiffsKanone C/28 naval guns. "Secondary defenses" were multiple Maus turrets and antiaircraft batteries, probably Ostwind turrets. It's armor was to range from 200mm to 180mm thick to make immune to anything but another naval gun, and instead of a single track on each side like a normal tank, it's weight rested on three 1.2 meter wide treads on each side. It had a ground clearance of 2 meters and was tall enough to ford rivers rather than use bridges. Krupps proposed it in 1942 and Hitler loved it so much he ordered it into production immediately. Unfortunately, noted non-retard Albert Speer went "WTF?" and scrapped the thing in 1943 after only the turret had been built (supposedly). There was a P-1500 Monster Landkreuzer as well, but I don't think it even got started on and it was really nothing more than a railway gun on a giant Wespe looking tank.
Pictures! it needs pictures!

Pictures taken from here.
the P-1000 Ratte Landkreuzer (without sub-turrets)


Model with sub-turrets:


The planned P-1500 Monster Landkreuzer was a Schwerer Gustav 800mm Rifled artillery cannpn - the largest rail gun ever deployed, mounted on a tracked chasis.



Albert Speer was Hitler's architect but he was also the Minister of Armaments and War Production for the Third Reich, by all accounts - a pretty competent one at that. The obvious problem with all of the above is that basically these multi-million Reichsmark machines can be destroyed by any old P-47 Thunderbolt or Hawker Typhoon wandering by...

Such a killjoy though to cancel the projects... swamp poop

Obligatory Nazi mecha picture:


PS:
T-34-76 manufactured 1940-44: 34,780
T-34-85 manufactured 1944-45: 22,559
Various self-propelled guns built on the T-34's chassis: 13,170

Total Panther production 1942-45: 6,000 give or take a few hundred (+392 JagdPanthers)

"Quantity has a quality all of its own" ~ Joseph Stalin
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 12:05:05 AM by Ubvman »
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #428 on: December 30, 2008, 11:55:48 PM

2) Power Armor is the future of absolutely nothing except maybe for police and science fiction/games. There's no way to put enough armor on a suit to protect against missles, large calibers, or high velocity weapons. Even if they didn't penetrate the armor or make a big chunk spall off the inside and bounce around, they don't have any way of protecting the wearer by absorbing and dissipating the energy of a 1kg projectile going from 2000m/s to 0m/s against the suit. You'd open the suit up to just find goo.

I'd argue that if you're forcing the opposition to use heavy weapons to kill your infantry, you're already ahead of the game. The armor doesn't need to be invincible. If it makes you immune to small arms while letting you carry around an extra hundred pounds of gear, that's good enough.

That's assuming it doesn't need recharging every 2 hours, doesn't weigh so much you fall through floors, isn't so bulky you can't fit through doorways, doesn't break down every 3 days and leave you standing there like a statue, doesn't cost three trillion dollars, etcetera.

But those are matters of technology, not horrible conceptual flaws. It's a perfectly viable concept in that you can look at the idea of powered armor and go "Gee that would be useful if you had it and it worked as advertised." As opposed to looking at a mech and going "Wait, what was even the point of this?"

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #429 on: December 31, 2008, 10:09:21 AM

I think the line can be blurred sufficiently with power armor, depending on how light. If it's no more than small arms plating with a self-contained environment to protect from chem/bio, plus enough 'power' to move itself and maybe a little gear to extend it's range versus normal infantry, as WUA said, it's at least conceptually possible to be used in small strike force or mobile units.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #430 on: December 31, 2008, 10:20:45 AM



<--- one of my all time favs.

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Jain Zar
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Reply #431 on: December 31, 2008, 02:12:01 PM

^^^ Except the game system they are from sucks utter ass.

Here is a tale from a former writer for the company showing how it was and by all evidence, still is:
http://spleen.mearcair.net/rifts/coffin.htm


rk47
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Reply #432 on: December 31, 2008, 02:56:01 PM

I think the line can be blurred sufficiently with power armor, depending on how light. If it's no more than small arms plating with a self-contained environment to protect from chem/bio, plus enough 'power' to move itself and maybe a little gear to extend it's range versus normal infantry, as WUA said, it's at least conceptually possible to be used in small strike force or mobile units.

Yep I guess the question is how much the defense dept is willing to spend to safeguard each soldier and what sort of function they would perform to justify such heavy outfits. And no, putting on these suits will never make them more mobile. It'll slow them down. So Heavy Assault is the only probably role for this. Making a 'light' suit ala Crysis is just a dream. I won't get into their Speed/Strength/Cloaking tech, but their tech alone with shielding is already quite iffy and to picture guys clad in those nanosuits walking 'as fast as' normal infantry would be quite hard.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Zzulo
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Reply #433 on: December 31, 2008, 03:06:02 PM

Well they're slowly trying out new exoskeletons, which I guess is what comes before power armour. I saw a video of an experimental full body exoskeleton. It looked clumsy, but it successfully let this skinny guy lift heavy weights and move around pretty freely. Put some military funding and such behind and I'm sure they'd come up with a decent concept.

But hey, when they don't even want to spend money on the best body armour out there, I dount they'd waste money on developing this kind of gear for the everyday soldier either. If it's not economically viable, it's not happening, which is probably why we'll not see power armour any time soon, even if it would work flawlessly in some theoretical instance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 03:08:02 PM by Zzulo »
Simond
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Reply #434 on: December 31, 2008, 05:33:23 PM



 DRILLING AND MANLINESS

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #435 on: January 01, 2009, 01:24:09 AM

Jesus, fucking Warhammer. Here's a concept drawing from DARPA.



Of course when motors/batteries get good enough to allow this sort of shit, fifty or seventy years from now, the suits our Chinese overlords use to conquer us probably won't look anything like this.  awesome, for real

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Ratman_tf
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Reply #436 on: January 01, 2009, 03:04:15 AM

Of course when motors/batteries get good enough to allow this sort of shit, fifty or seventy years from now, the suits our Chinese overlords use to conquer us probably won't look anything like this.  awesome, for real

Unless the Koreans take over the world when we swtich to video games to settle global disputes.



(So in a way, there will be mechs on the modern battlefield!  DRILLING AND MANLINESS)



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Fordel
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Reply #437 on: January 01, 2009, 03:08:39 AM

The Darpa suit kinda looks like the Halo armor. Which I suppose isn't terribly surprising.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #438 on: January 01, 2009, 05:39:04 AM

Just to backtrack a page, man was MW4: Mercs ever disappointing. A straight and almost entirely linear campaign with cockstabbingly horrible FMV cutscenes that filled you with admiration for the last couple Wing Commander games at least bothering to line up some recognizable B-movie talent. Wait, did it even have cutscenes or am I remembering regular MW4? Anyway, the point is, taking away my awesome merc unit just because the stupid storyline ended was bullshit.

Even on the fucking SNES Mechwarrior I could just refrain from picking the final story mission and do random ones while buying shit and tinkering with my mechs.

I want a merc game that takes some cues from Sid Meier's Pirates. I want a big sandbox universe where empires compete with each other whether I'm doing anything or not, where I can choose where I fit in, with a few story-related goals I can either pursue or not. I want to go from a band of scrubs in rusty light mechs shooting at periphery bandits to a behemoth personal army that's practically its own nation-state. Or maybe I want to be the bandits. I want the unit to grow until individual employers can no longer house the whole thing and I have to acquire a base, either by earning my own planet by serving a house, or by taking it from someone. I want a whole strategy game in itself (albeit a relatively lightweight one) attached to my mech combat game.

I want at least 11 other friendly mechs under my command besides the one I'm riding in. I want to push three keys to tell the heavy lance to take that hill, or whatever. I want the missions to be epic, where I'm shooting the shit out of shit while simultaneously practically playing an RTS as I order my unit around. I want the timeline to advance. I want the Clans to invade. I want someone to pay someone off or buy the rights to something so we can have Phoenix Hawks and Wasps and all that stuff again.

It would be the greatest vehicle combat sim/shooter/business management sim/RTS/strategy game ever made! I would murder all of you to have it!

Braarrghhjdzh56lkvhehz09

[/rant]

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #439 on: January 01, 2009, 10:34:24 AM

^^^ Except the game system they are from sucks utter ass.


I disagree. That article also read like a bitter x-employee. Its seemed to have little to do with the game system, and everything to do with someone upset that the creator was so involved in the creation, imagine that.

Today's How-To: Scrambling a Thread to the Point of Incoherence in Only One Post with MrBloodworth . - schild
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Jain Zar
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Reply #440 on: January 01, 2009, 02:53:05 PM

^^^ Except the game system they are from sucks utter ass.


I disagree. That article also read like a bitter x-employee. Its seemed to have little to do with the game system, and everything to do with someone upset that the creator was so involved in the creation, imagine that.

No, Siembeida IS like that.  They just released a zombie RPG.  About a year ago their house magazine Rifter had a preview of this game by the freelancers who pitched the idea. 
Not a standard zombie world, has some magical bits to it, kind of unique,  Time goes by they submit the final manuscript.  Siembeida decides he doesn't like it, and rewrites 70% of it, making himself the lead writer and the other 2 get minor credit.  He writes this book IN A MONTH with no playtesting, and as he admits to NOT EVEN BEING A ZOMBIE FAN watches a few zombie flicks and maybe reads Max Brooks' books. 

And Palladium's game system is pure unplayable, unbalanced SHIT. 
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #441 on: January 01, 2009, 02:58:45 PM

And Palladium's game system is pure unplayable, unbalanced SHIT. 

Quite playable, quite fun, great game worlds.... Unblanced, sure...but whats a SDC guy doing to do VS a giant mech. Nothing.

Today's How-To: Scrambling a Thread to the Point of Incoherence in Only One Post with MrBloodworth . - schild
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Ratman_tf
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Reply #442 on: January 01, 2009, 04:04:51 PM

And Palladium's game system is pure unplayable, unbalanced SHIT. 

Quite playable, quite fun, great game worlds.... Unblanced, sure...but whats a SDC guy doing to do VS a giant mech. Nothing.

Dude. Fairies have MDC. A little fairy girl can punch an engine block and disintegrate it. And you can hit her with a rocket launcher and she'll take no damage because she has MDC instead of SDC/hit points. That, and you have to tweak the existing MD/MDC damage values if you want any fight to take less than 18 hours of rolling dice and yawning. It's a retarted system. And I'm retarted for getting dragged into a RIFTS discussion. Fuck you all.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 04:07:18 PM by Ratman_tf »



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Lantyssa
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Reply #443 on: January 01, 2009, 04:07:57 PM

I like the idea of invincible fairies.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #444 on: January 01, 2009, 04:20:13 PM

You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
IainC
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WWW
Reply #445 on: January 01, 2009, 04:23:33 PM

Ninjas and Superspies and TMNT were the only iterations of the Palladium system that really worked. Rifts and the original Palladium are horribly, horribly broken. Anyone pretending otherwise is delusional.

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SerialForeigner Photography.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #446 on: January 01, 2009, 04:41:57 PM

I like the idea of invincible fairies.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

The higher level of ambient magic gives magical creatures like fairies and dragons mega damage status. It makes them comparable to the high tech lasers and rail guns and power armors that have mega damage values as well.

Everyone's super-awesome in RIFTS, especially whatever's in the latest supplement book.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Lantyssa
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Reply #447 on: January 01, 2009, 05:19:31 PM

I know.  The one time I got to play Rifts I was a baby dragon.  I was actually pretty weak compared to the others, but since I found a gauss rifle during the session and the only attack I made with it popped a cyborg's head off with a really lucky roll, I had fun.  I could see all kinds of abuse possible with a system that combined SDC and MDC though.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Jack9
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Reply #448 on: January 01, 2009, 08:56:05 PM

Quote
I could see all kinds of abuse possible with a system that combined SDC and MDC though.

For those playing catch-up...
The Palladium Robotech RPG had both SDC and MDC. The description of SDC (Structural Damage Capacity) was a baseball bat, MDC  (Mega Damace Capacity) a tank. Your SDC weapon will never hurt the MDC armor.
Xerapis
Contributor
Posts: 1395


Reply #449 on: January 01, 2009, 09:50:39 PM

SDC = level one gnome rogue
MDC = level 80 tauren warrior

It wasn't that the entire Rifts system was horrifically flawed or anything. It gives us a very nice example of why game systems need to be playtested before printing them. Also, proofreaders for the love of ~insert deity of choice~!!!!!

Helps to make the pictures match the description too. And not include so many glaring contradictions and discrepancies as to make a 10 years olds head explode from righteous indignation that this "Rifts" nonsense should be printed when his "Pretty Pink Pony Patrol" was rudely rejected by gaming megacorp number 12.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Aez
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Reply #450 on: January 01, 2009, 10:35:53 PM

This is funny :

Where is my Tank Slicing Graphene sword?

Quote
Imagine a sword that weighs less than an ounce (or even a gram).
So thin, that if you looked at the blade edge on, it would be invisible.
So strong and stiff, that you could use it as a lever to lift a car.
So sharp, that if you grabbed the blade, your fingers would simply fall off.
So durable, that it would never need to be sharpened, ever.
The blade would be impervious even to lasers.

A twelve year old armed with a graphene sword could slice through an A1 Abrahms Tank like it was made of butter.
Even depleted uranium is no match. The only object that could withstand graphene sword is a graphene shield.
It is a material straight out of science fiction; thousands of times stronger than steel, yet, thousands of times
lighter.

The sword blade thickness of 1 atom is the very definition of an infinitely sharp object.
And, it can be created literally out of thin air. If that is not available, sticks and dirt will do.


Jack9
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Posts: 47


Reply #451 on: January 02, 2009, 03:20:01 AM

Quote
thousands of times stronger than steel

Erm, 200 times, according to the bloggo-nonsense. Stronger being the magic word to mean indestructable via epic hardness, rigidity, and an inability to shatter. Diamonds shatter all the time, but this stuff is magic.

If it exhibited the properties described, how would you even put a handle on it? Fail.
FatuousTwat
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Posts: 2223


Reply #452 on: January 02, 2009, 03:36:01 AM



Everyone knows spaceships > tanks&mechs.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Sophismata
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Posts: 543


Reply #453 on: January 02, 2009, 03:44:04 AM

Quote
thousands of times stronger than steel

Erm, 200 times, according to the bloggo-nonsense. Stronger being the magic word to mean indestructable via epic hardness, rigidity, and an inability to shatter. Diamonds shatter all the time, but this stuff is magic.

If it exhibited the properties described, how would you even put a handle on it? Fail.

Impervious, even to lasers  awesome, for real.

"You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you." - WindupAtheist
Jain Zar
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Posts: 1362


Reply #454 on: January 02, 2009, 04:20:44 AM

Put it this way, Palladium's system is so ass but I love Robotech so much, I am making my own RPG with a VERY loose manner of compatibility just so I can quickly import stuff over.
(Though given Palladium's history, if I DARE post actual conversion formulas they will send me a Cease and Desist.  Here.  Have some fun.  Read the top of the forum stickies about their IP and web policies.  Its some of the most moronic shit I have ever seen!  http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=1da44b1788628561f6df216acf16cade  )

And I am sorry, physics says even Mega Damage stuff can be hurt by things like hitting the ground or getting rocks in a jet fighter's intake.

Then again, according to RIFTS a guy in a 10 foot tall set of power armor can have 770 MDC while Macross/Robotech's MAC 2 Monster weighing in at around 300 tons only has like 425.  In the old 80s version of the Robotech rules it was like 325, so they boosted it a little!   That makes perfect sense.  Giant fuck off walking goddamned Metal Gear is my bukkake bitch artillery robot with 4 howitzers and 6 heavy missile launchers should have less armor and structure than some asshole in a shiny Glitter Boy suit.

Only in Kevvy's world.


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