What went wrong.

[Wasted]

There is a glaring assumption being thrown around though that people are hungry for meaningful pvp, and desperately want to rvr but can't.  Seeing as how easy it is at the moment on my server to get t3 oRVR going I can't think that t4 would be so different on a well populated server with all other things being equal.  Regardless of the actual item/xp rewards if there was such a strong desire for oRVR people should be participating precisely because it is fun and want they want to do.

So either 1) People are exaggerating to a certain degree how much they want to orvr because they want the rewards boosted, to match their expectations of the effort required and/or 2) Because of the grind the average type of player that has made it to t4 so far has had to 'play the game' as with any other MMO, and is so far still out of the habit in game of joining in oRVR battles because of the min/max mindset they have put themselves into.  Considering that those of us still in t3 are 'stopping to smell the roses' type players we are the ones more likely (like I did last night) to throw in with open rvr groups and spend the night taking keeps and then when destruction finally arrive have a ball defending until its time for bed, and only gain a quarter of a level and not care, and get no loot and not care, because it is fun.

So even if they do make oRVR more rewarding to shift the min/max crowd into more participation they have failed to create an in-game culture so far that celebrates the 'fun' aspects of the game for the sake of fun and will always have trouble in the end-game justifying to players the repetitive zone flipping and city seiges without the ever increasing phat loot carrot.

[khaine]

I'm curious , was the scenario vs open-rvr reward problem brought up in beta at all ? Was it never noticed or ignored ? Or expected maybe to not be a problem in live ?

It just seems so glaring it would hard to miss 100% -

But then again I remember in EQ2 beta many were telling the devs that  group xps debt would not fly - their response was it would improve socialization and make groups work together better - our response was it would make groups even more cliquish and elitist -

At launch when you got xps debt from someone who just joined your group and fell off a cliff halfway across the zone it was quickly shown what a horrible idea it was

[wuzzman]

It was brought up, but people did open RVR for fun since they weren't allowed into t3-4 from what I believe. So the sheer scale of the problem wasn't even considered by the beta community and obviously not the devs. Also there was an XP nerf and a even funnier change to the RVR equipment that swung the pendulum to PQ's as the only source of pvp equipement.

[Zzulo]

I get a lot the complaints people bring up about WAR

I personally think it is the incentives for ORVR that are most lacking


the one thing I don't get is "omg the leveling is soo slooow" 

Sorry, but the leveling is really really not slow. I have no idea where people get this from. My time /played to 35 is around 3-4 days. That is nothing in an MMO environment!

CoX (City of Heroes and City of Villians) has revamped leveling and made it, "If you wanna go nuts leveling you can do it in about 50 to 75 hours to make level 50."  WoW is just a blur now when I make a new character and level up like mad.  Both games have ways to help play with your friends and boost your leveling speed (or soon to have).  I haven't purchased this game for me and my son yet, and if I keep hearing the stories that leveling sucks, why the heck should we buy it?  72 to 96 hours to make it to level 35 doesn't sound that attractive, since you still have 5 more levels to go (how long will those levels take?).  Plus is it going to be a ghost town next month if we do decide to get the game?  Plus I hated EQ and DAoC for the grind.

well I haven't played wow in at least 2 years now, so I don't know what they've done to their leveling curve, but at launch I remember it taking me quite a long time to get to 60. I also remember almost giving up around 50 because of how god damn boring it was.

The only thing that kept me in the world was my love for Warcraft and the polish that had gone into the game.

As for people saying that the PvE in WAR is horrible compared to WoW, I'm not sure about that. The one big thing that WAR lacks would be dungeons. They have some, but they're not obvious and they're quite few. As for regular questing I don't remember WoW to be anything but boring as shit, like any other MMO, except for the fact that they had some incredibly frustrating types of quests as well(1% dropchance type quests). I wouldn't necessarily call that kind of variety a positive thing.

 In the end I think mythic made a misstake by making hundreds of PQ's and so few dungeons. Had they put a few more of those in, I think they would have been able to soothe a big portion of the PvE crowd.

[Lantyssa]

As Brogarn just said: you can do a lot of this yourself: build group, light up map, others will show up (if you build/destroy it, they will come). But that is then where the world itself (size, fragmenting, travel times) gets in the way. You can call out all the people you want, but they need to think you'll be there when they show up.

The painkillers are making me too tired to read past this.  If it has been covered, go ahead and skip it.

Has anyone mentioned we have a thread about perceived boycotts because people aren't showing up?  It's great to say destroy it and they will come, but that's proving to not be true.  Notifications aren't enough if there is no way to get to the action before it's over and if there is no reward for doing so, why bother most of the time?  As long as players feel a need to level up or else feel useless, there is little incentive to stop doing the rewarding activity in a vain attempt to find a fun one.

Those solutions have been covered elsewhere, but I think it's important to dispell the myth that even if people work hard that open RvR will find them.  On many servers that just isn't true.

[Sparky]

I came late to the party so the new shiny hasn't worn off yet.  But already I'm not feeling the hook, a reason to log on every day and level my characters.  It's not helped by guildies are endlessly moaning about T3 and the broken endgame stuff.  Other than that it's hard to put my finger on, they've got all the ingredients for a great MMO but somehow it just doesn't quite jell.  If they actually get people RVRing and make scenarios strictly optional for progression it should help a lot.

[tommh]

I think there's a general consensus that RvR needs to be incentivized and that systems to bring people quickly to where the action is are also needed (or at least highly desirable).  The only point I was trying to make is that even with these in PvP is always going to be less "on demand" then PvE and that there is more expected of a player.

As far as your point I think it's naive to assume that all players do play MMOs optimally. This is manifestly not the case.

Perhaps this means that its impossible to have a major MMO which centers on PvP, time will tell.

[Zzulo]

the Darkness Falls thing from DAOC sounds like shitloads of fun

I wonder why they didn't put it in the game?

[Righ]

That'd be an appropriate riposte if this were SB or something even smaller like Endless Ages. However, this is a game intended to appeal to a similar market WoW is catering to, but is turning out to have missed the mark on a few areas critical to larger appeal.

It was more of a riposte against the fashion of every harpy creating their own personal doomcasting thread that all the known issues can be repeated in. Nobody is going to say anything new here. We know what is wrong, its been said. Saying "this thread is not for repeating what is wrong or how to fix it, but what would have made this a better game" is silly. What would have made this a better game is not doing what is wrong or fixing what is. However, some people are unhappy that the game hasn't gone away yet or that some people are still playing it. Its that much of a cancer to them.

A lot of people fell for the "the game is going to be like WoW but with better PvP" nonsense. Other than the fact that Warcraft shamelessly stole ideas from Warhammer, the game was never going to be like WoW and any expectations (game play or retention of subscribers) based on that premise are and always have been worthless. This was always going to be DAOC with Orcs. And any post-WoW online game is going to get big sales numbers, most of whom will not stay. The next game that gets close to WoW subscriber figures will be the next Blizzard MMOG. The next game that is "like WoW" will be made by a company that "is Blizzard".

[Zzulo]

personally I hope the next big MMO will be Planetside II


but you know, a good game, unlike the original 

Where are my god damn MMOFPS games? 

[Hayduke]

I don't really have any love for WoW anymore, but comparing the solo PvE is pretty much no contest.  The difference between the two?  In WoW I could do quests above my level that would take just about all of my abilities and be challenging (the right pet, stealth, crowd control, interrupts, self-rez, consumables, cooldowns, etc..).  There could be a lot of strategic choices.  WAR is more, go here spam your most powerful abilities on 10 mobs, come back to me.  Or go here, slog through a bunch of trash mobs, fetch an item, slog back through those trash mobs because our respawn rates are ridiculous even in the most isolated corners of the world, come back to me.  There's no scripting and no strategic choices.  You don't even have to worry about adds because as long as you pull with a ranged attack, there are none.

Then you go to turn it in and it's just ugh.  If it can't be done well (and I don't think Mythic should invest in making it fun) they could at least pump up the xp gain.

[BitWarrior]

Where are my god damn MMOFPS games? 

Have you looked at Tabula Rasa?

http://www.rgtr.com

[Zzulo]

Indeed, but finding that the combat was not what I wanted and the world pretty bland, I gave it up during the trial

[Kirth]

Here is one thing I think did it in for me for now....

If you don't know how swordmasters work, you have 3 'stances' norm, improved, perfect. using a norm ability leads to improved using improved leads to perfect using prefect leads to norm.

When I'm next to someone in PvP or even a PvE mob and I hit the hot-key for an ability to start this loop off and my character does a little half swing animation but I get "ability not in range" or some stupid error for like 4-5 key pressed, That makes it incredibly frustrating.

[Kail]

There is a glaring assumption being thrown around though that people are hungry for meaningful pvp, and desperately want to rvr but can't.  Seeing as how easy it is at the moment on my server to get t3 oRVR going I can't think that t4 would be so different on a well populated server with all other things being equal.  Regardless of the actual item/xp rewards if there was such a strong desire for oRVR people should be participating precisely because it is fun and want they want to do.

I think it depends on the server.  My brother was getting bored with the game yesterday, so I figured "Hey, you haven't done any ORvR yet, let's try that."  Ran to a keep that was under attack, found out that it was one guy, killed him, and stood around for about five minutes.  Heard that there was some other guys attacking the other region, so we hoofed it back to our camp, flew over to the other lake, and hunted around for this other group.  There were about ten other allies with the same idea, so it wasn't exactly a battle when we found the four or so enemies, but whatever.  Then we sat around waiting.

It was maybe an hour of wandering around, for two short fights.

Anyways, while I agree that it's a bit premature to be doomcasting, I do have a few complaints to vent.  My main gripe with the game is the technical problems, which are still not fixed.

-My character has a cape which for some reason defaults to "visible, guild heraldry off" so he's basically wearing a white square covering his back (I.E. the only part of him that I can see 99% of the time).  I can change it, but the next time I zone, it'll change back.

-Collision detection problems.  As a melee, this is incredibly annoying.  Blocking other players rarely works as you want it, and yet they are all able to get in your way.  It seems like the collision detection fucks up the position reporting, so I generally have to try to keep out of the path of flag runners unless I want to start swinging at empty air.  That seems highly problematic.

-Position reporting problems.  Related to above.  If I had to pick one technical problem to fix, this would be it.  Characters who look like they're in range but the server tells me are not.  While they're better than they were at release, pets are still pretty bad with this.  NPCs are horrible at this.  My White Lion has to be in melee range to fight, and getting close enough to attack an enemy that my pet has engaged, when they're twenty feet apart and swinging at the air, is ludicrous.  It's like trying to punch a quantum event.

-Ability cooldowns which do not appear.  Mostly on the morale abilities, but sometimes on normal ones, too.  Looks like it's available on my hotbar, but if I try to use it, I get a "Not ready yet" message.

-Spell animations which don't terminate.  The Archmage/Shaman beam spell, for example, does this a lot, where I'll be shot with a beam, die, and for the entire rest of the match that stupid beam will follow me around the map, a big glowing line connecting me to the point where the Archmage was when I died.  Sometimes other spells do this, too, like that Sorceress one where they make this big pit in the ground around them, I had one map of TA where an enemy Sorceress had that pit graphic stuck to her feet for the whole rest of the match.  Sometimes I'll get stuck in executing an animation; my Chosen will raise his axe to strike an enemy which dies, and then I'll just stand around with my axe over my head until I die.  My Zealot has this weird spellcasting animation where he cuts his wrist to heal, and every day I get stuck in it at least once at the point where he's just sitting there, sawing away at his forearm with this dagger.

-Performance issues.  Maybe related to my crappy computer, but why does this game have such lame graphics options?  No texture detail slider, no model detail slider, just a toggle for lighting effects and a drop box for shadows and spell effects.  The difference between the lowest and the highest settings is barely noticeable.

-Scenario scoreboards are fucked up.  Come out of spawn as a level 2, you get bolstered up to rank eight, which gives you like 800 extra hp.  That 800 hp is added to your "healing done" tally, for some reason.  Play as a Sorceress or a Bright Wizard, and damage you inflict to yourself is added to your "damage dealt" tally.  For bonus points, kill yourself before the enemy can, and get credit for striking a killing blow.

[Lantyssa]

My Zealot has this weird spellcasting animation where he cuts his wrist to heal, and every day I get stuck in it at least once at the point where he's just sitting there, sawing away at his forearm with this dagger.

If the ability itself didn't succeed, I think that glitch would invoke enough of my triggers to make me dump playing the character.

[rk47]

Way, way too early for this thread.

I don't think so. I've already seen it first hand. There were around 80-100 concurrent logs in my guild at the moment but around 30% have questions floating around 'should I resub?' What makes you think they'll wait for new classes? There wasn't enough effort to convince the players to stay on at the moment. The people who level quicker and do regular grps in High level instance are doing it the WoW-style in War. They're really doing it for loot since ORVR rewards suck dick, and grinding RR just to put your gear on is painful and boring. (SERPENTPASAGE YAY!)

I never had that sort of 'do i re-sub past the free month or not' question when I first started playing WoW. I wanted to see more of the world more than anything I didn't have enough time to check it all out, Duskwoods, Vancleef, Kalimdor, Stranglethorn. It was all good looking and the flavor of the zone is truly unique, it gave me more incentive to explore. Warhammer doesn't

[Venkman]

That'd be an appropriate riposte if this were SB or something even smaller like Endless Ages. However, this is a game intended to appeal to a similar market WoW is catering to, but is turning out to have missed the mark on a few areas critical to larger appeal.

It was more of a riposte against the fashion of every harpy creating their own personal doomcasting thread that all the known issues can be repeated in. Nobody is going to say anything new here.

Quite true that.

[amiable]

Actually this thread may be a bit premature. According to the poll of bat country most folks are staying.

[UnSub]

Actually this thread may be a bit premature. According to the poll of bat country most folks are staying.

... because they hope to see fixes come in, not because they are OMG WOW AWESOME about WAR.

To repeat, WAR's biggest mistakes were:

 - a beta test that (mostly) examined gameplay one sector at a time and missed finding out that the whole thing didn't have any synergy when put together

 - a number of systems (sides, classes, population caps, large world) that saw players spread far and wide from each other, when for PvP you need to gather them together

[amiable]

I don't understand this thread. If you mosey over to the Bat Country boards you will notice that most folks are resubscribing.

There are a few vocal critics: we get it WAR is not for you.There are problems (I agree with Nebu's asessment) but it is still fun enough for most folks to keep playing.

When the majority of players say they won't re-sub,that is the time for this thread.  Until then reports of WAR's demise are greatly exaggerated,

[squirrel]

It won't appeal to everyone long term, and there's obviously lots of short term issues needing addressing. But it's working fundamentally - the game has issues but the biggest problem is people are broken.

Bat Country seems to be about 50% on the stay side, good for this crowd.

And hey if it's not for you - WoW added motorcycles! Go check that out. Please.

[amiable]

Sorry for the (kind of) double post.  I thought my first one was eaten.

In response to "folks staying hoping for a miracle patch" that may be part of it.  But I doubt you would see suck a high BC retention if that was the only thing going on.

[Goreschach]

Sorry for the (kind of) double post.  I thought my first one was eaten.

In response to "folks staying hoping for a miracle patch" that may be part of it.  But I doubt you would see suck a high BC retention if that was the only thing going on.

Keep in mind that 'What went wrong' isn't the same thing as 'the sky is falling'. Despite the fact that a lot of people are still going to sub for the next month, that doesn't mean everything is going right. There are serious problems with the game.

[rk47]

it's simple, when you try out T3 Open RVR that had 50 v 50 with one on the keep, you'll realize the engine really really struggled. Now how is this gonna work in end game when you siege a fortress with 100 v 100 or more? Content with current situations are one thing but the questions in everyone's mind is mostly that there are a lot of broken things like classes, bad scen balance rewards, engine lag but the thing they trumpeting up the most is new classes for December. Yay?

[Azazel]

As an outsider looking in, I have noticed the mood shift pretty quickly from "Robot Jesus" to "Uh....I like it but...."

The next phase is just not logging in, not for any particular reason...you just lose the urge to grind anymore. It's kinda happening on a similar timeframe as AoC, scarily, and I find the thread name to be kind of fitting if there is a mass exodus within the next month.

Chip Rommel is correct in his assertations.

I should never have bought those CEs...

[Zzulo]

it's simple, when you try out T3 Open RVR that had 50 v 50 with one on the keep, you'll realize the engine really really struggled. Now how is this gonna work in end game when you siege a fortress with 100 v 100 or more? Content with current situations are one thing but the questions in everyone's mind is mostly that there are a lot of broken things like classes, bad scen balance rewards, engine lag but the thing they trumpeting up the most is new classes for December. Yay?

I don't have any significant lag in big keep battles. I don't think it's the same for everyone. Also, as far as I know, they've been working on the "new" classes since beta, since they are not "new" at all, but just scrapped old concepts that they promised to give us back someday.

[realcyberghost]

Epeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen.

[Modern Angel]

l33t kiddies

Don't do this.

[schild]

Oh haha wow. I think this is the third time I've had to delete this twit.

[realcyberghost]

Oh haha wow. I think this is the third time I've had to delete this twit.

Oh well, then make this the fourth and last time, I don't want to be part of this "community" anymore.

Bye.

[schild]

You were never part of it to begin with. Thx for playing though.

[Arrrgh]

The main problem is the server population caps are too low. If each server held more people and there were fewer servers overall the complaining about PQs being empty and open RVR fights being too hard to find would vanish.

The related problem is that even if they suddenly found a way to drastically increase the population cap they wouldn't use it because of fear that it would give the impression of server merges due to loss of subscribers. Pride goeth before the fall of your game.

[Ossigor]

- a beta test that (mostly) examined gameplay one sector at a time and missed finding out that the whole thing didn't have any synergy when put together

^^ Here's a large factor. And you've got to think, most of us testers were anxiously awaiting oRvR alla DAoC and so didn't pay much attention to the scenarios as much. There were events or "brawl nights" where the devs encouraged everyone to go out to a certain tier of oRvR. They didn't put it in practice, where people are going to strive 2x as hard to level (and find the quickest way to do so -- scenarios). The segmented testing is biting them in the ass.

I think a lot of people *want* to like oRvR, but the fairness and ease of getting into a scenario is just a lot easier.

[Mrbloodworth]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

All i can say is that im having fun, the game is still holding my intrest, and with the recent adjustments to ORvR, its moving in the right direction. Long term? I don't know.