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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: What went wrong. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: What went wrong.  (Read 228182 times)
Slyfeind
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2037


Reply #35 on: October 22, 2008, 10:14:58 AM

I just started playing last night. Overall, the newbie experience wasn't as friendly as I was expecting. I died in my first two fights just because I was fighting the wrong things. Levelling is fast, compared to most MMOs out there. Nevertheless, we still haven't seen conclusive evidence that players need slow levels in order to maximize retention...because nobody's really tried fast levelling except WOW (and we saw how badly that went). With AoC, I agree with Schild; there was no way they could have kept ahead of the players. It wasn't fast levelling that hurt them.

I can see how PvE can get boring, if that's all there is to do outside scenarios, and if mobs don't get much more interesting. I'm still surprised Mythic thought they SOLVED realm imbalance issues, especially since I see no difference between WAR and the first month of DAOC's release. Well...there was a pop-up when I was choosing my server, which said "The server you've chosen is full! We recommend this other server, where there's an imbalance and the population is less!"

I ignored it and went with the unbalanced bloated server because that's where all my friends are.

"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want.  Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
Morfiend
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Posts: 6009

wants a greif tittle


Reply #36 on: October 22, 2008, 10:18:16 AM

I would say, I personally feel it has a a lot to do with expectations. War is everywhere!!!!!

Errr... wait....

As soon as the critical mass figured out that RVR hardly moves their exp bar, RVR lakes became a ghost town. People came to WAR with the promise of awesome RVR, and instead found a PVE game that is not as good as WoW, they found the same type of battleground with only a different name, and got frustrated with class balance and population imbalances.

While it would be more far to compare WAR at release to WoW at release, thats just not how it works out. People playing WAR today are going to be comparing it to WoW from yesterday, and when you take the awesome RVR out of the picture, WAR just doesn't stack up.

I honestly feel that Mythic fucked up badly here. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and its going to be very hard to win these people back. Like someone said up above, I think the ship has already sailed on them attaining and then retaining 1 million + subs. People came for RVR and when it wasnt here, started leaving. This only made it worse, as now WAR has a whole bunch of Medium and Low pop servers. As of Monay evening at 6:30pst, there was one server with High Order, and one server with High Destro, both where servers offering the 20% bonus. These servers where already not "full" feeling when on high pop, now I would imagine most feel like ghost towns. This renders RVR even harder to find, and PQs an excersise in frustration. I don't want to have to grind step 1 of a bunch of PQs. Honestly, as far as PQs go, its just more grinding. I think they should make the influence in t1, t2 and t3 so that if you complete all 3 PQs for a chapter, that fills your influence bar. We don't need more grinding.

That brings me to another point. Because of the EXP change a week before release, it means you HAVE to grind to level up. Ether PQs or Scenarios. There are just not enough quests with the current quest EXP being so low to let you advance by only questing.

I think the number 1 thing that they did NOT learn from Blizzard is that people don't like forced mindless grinding. Now, cover that grind with a thin layer of quest and people will love it.

I still stand by what I have posted in other threads.

Grinding shouldn't stand in the way of getting to the good part of the game, which is the PVP and RVR. But even the PVP can feel grindy if you force people to do it to level.
Checkers
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Posts: 62


Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 10:18:39 AM

Okay, I'm going to tackle this one and be not nice about it.  Did you ever check open groups in the various zones for RVR warbands?  They're really easy to find.  You just have to go to the warcamp, and hop flight points till you see action, if any is going on. 

Yes.  I was once invited to a warband.  Nothing came of it after 45 mins of struggling to find more players and nobody willing to run across the entire zone to stand around in an RvR lake and jerk themselves off hoping more people would show up.

Barring a lack of groups, you can also check the maps for hot spot activities, they show up there, and you can easily run out there and see if a group is going on, and ask to join or just help them.  Did you?

No.

Barring that, did you ever go to the warcamp, and ask around if anyone wanted to RVR, did you ever take the initiative to try to form an RVR group of your own? 

No.

Barring that, are you in a guild, if so, did your guild ever form up for RVR?  Mine certainly did, and it was fun.  If not, why have you not at least looked around for a guild to join, in a game focused around group activity?

Yes, I was in a guild.  An organized group of players interested in leveling will most effectively spend their time rolling scenarios, and that's what we did.

I mean, come fucking on, there are literally ZERO barriers to rvr, other than low population servers.

How about the lack of incentives?
Seanzor
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Posts: 63


Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 10:18:52 AM

To the two who suggested that the leveling was 'lul super fast' - Sure, the total time to go from 1-40 may only be, what, 4 days played... That's still 96 hours of miserable drudge work that, I would suggest, is only fundamentally enjoyable to people who are fucked in the head and actually need games to serve as some kind of opiate to distract them from how shit their life is elsewhere.

In addition, WAR's competing against WoW - how long does it take most people to get a level 70 on WoW?  Yeah, 0 hours, because most people already have one, and if they don't, it's because they HATE HATE grinds, which means they'll definitely HATE HATE the WAR grind.  Mythic doesn't have a time machine, so they're not competing, in any way, with WoW on release - they're competing with WoW currently, and in three weeks, they're competing with WoW + another insane expansion.

The big thing for me, though, is the way all the little stupid things accrued:  Crafting is awful and useless, with a good dash of HG:L inventory clutter thanks to those fucking seeds;  Gear is essentially shit - I've never noticed a difference in my ability to compete in Scenarios at my various high and low points of gear quality;  PvP gear is super-shit;  Any non-instanced PvP is fuck-all worthless to do;  Better, faster gear from PQs;  Infinitely better xp from anything else;  Way better renown from scenarios;  Controlling a keep doesn't do shit.

From all reports, the end-game is completely fucked up, which is no surprise, given that they jacked up xp requirements to level.  

The game just feels like it was under-budgeted, was rushed out in less than four years, and never had a hope of being a big contender.

(and Ard: there is a GIANT barrier to oRvR: There's no fucking reason to do it other than 'fun', no rewards whatsoever - this is an MMO, you fucking need rewards for a desired activity.  I've done oRvR, I took a couple keeps, and the activity was fun until I realized that it wasn't doing shit to progress any aspect of my character, and then it felt like a waste of time.  It felt like I had to get back to 'work'.  Then I stopped logging in daily, and shortly thereafter, I stopped logging in).
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10619


Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 10:19:42 AM


- Any time spent PvEing is time you can't spend grinding scenarios for superior experience plus renown. PvE feels like a waste of time.

Ignoring the mechanical issues of PVE, they could fix a lot of this by making PVE type quests that are centered in the RVR lakes which would provide XP and small RR point increases, eg.  kill 5 guards and 1 opposing player.

This would give somewhat easy XP, renown points would be gotten (gets people out of scenarios some), and, more importantly, gives people things to do in the RVR lakes other than run around and look for other folks to kill.  

Of course the XP would have to scale correctly-  if the XP doesn't match what you get in scenarios it won't happen.  
Morfiend
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wants a greif tittle


Reply #40 on: October 22, 2008, 10:20:17 AM

Levelling is fast, compared to most MMOs out there.

It slows down a lot after level 8 and then again at 15 and drastically at 20+.

Right now I am level 30, and I have ovef 5 days played. And I am not the exploring/crafting type.
BitWarrior
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WWW
Reply #41 on: October 22, 2008, 10:25:13 AM

You know, I'm going to sort of defend Mythic on the no official forums decision, if only as a backhanded compliment. Having no official forums would be fine, if the Herald site was actually used in anything other than a pisspoor manner. Dev diaries? Barely noticeable hot fix messages? Maybe it's the design, but the customer communication that site is supposed to provide just isn't there. DAoC Herald was much better run in the days when I played DAoC.

As a web developer and not a game developer, I'm actually going to stick my nose in here for the first time. Although their web site isn't a foundational problem with their game, Mythic could certainly be leveraging it a *lot* more than they currently are.

You're exactly right about the Herald, and it's not just limited to that. The WAR site is stuck in "announcement" mode rather than "live game" mode. They're linking to reviews and trying to get people into the game, rather than trying to keep people within the game.

I don't know about you guys, but the biggest, best part about the WoW site back when WoW was first released was its Under Development page. This page outlined all the goals Blizzard had for their game, what the next patch was going to bring, what they planned to add in the long haul, etc. Largely, if you had a problem with something, the Under Development page said, "Listen, we're already on it, a fix is coming and this is what it's going to look like. This is coming in x patch."

I feel their retention of players would sharply increase using such a means of communication. There's a lot of great stuff Mark has posted out there (thinking largely of his comment about people needing 10 tons of brain damage to not want to RvR after their fixes), but there's no central place to read it all. 95% of the players are probably playing right now (or not) without any knowledge that Mythic is addressing their issues.

Second to that, Mythic has an opportunity. Blogs are big, and an official Warhammer Online blog would be a perfect solution to the lack of official forums.

Most of you probably are aware of Valves blog at teamfortress2.com. This is what I'm talking about - MMO's constantly have issues to address, so while you don't have forums for people to post wildly on, use a blog which can be easily moderated. For example, Mythic could post that they're "Looking to make RvR more rewarding" and mention:

a) What the goals are
b) What the technical challenges and restrictions are
c) What their current ideas are

...and finally ask what the community can come up with. Granted, 90% of the ideas are going to be crap, but you might get the odd good one. Beyond that, they would be communicating with the base on a number of levels, by both revealing what they are addressing, plus the thought process which goes into making a positive change. The teamfortress blog gave me even more respect for Valve, because I was able to readily see the challenges and restrictions they put into each game design decision. Finally, the players can participate and communicate on an "official" level, without needing the staff to moderate a full forum.

Is this going to solve all the problems WAR is currently experiencing? No. Might it help with retention? There's a real possibility.

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
tolakram
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Posts: 138


Reply #42 on: October 22, 2008, 10:33:32 AM

I don't think the game has failed yet and it seems to me the responsiveness from Mythic has been pretty darn good.  Maybe not fast enough, but who's been faster.

I've never wanted a game to succeed as much as I want WAR to succeed, which I find odd.  I think I like so many of the concepts (open groups, RvR lakes, scenarios, public quests) that I really hope they can solve the population problem quickly so more can experience how fun these can be.

I read the epic thread and, well, I agree with both sides of the argument.  Mythic is gun shy to make modifications too fast, understandable, but not making them fast enough might kill the game.

WAR is not dead yet, though.

Right now I'm paying money to make a gob if Tier 2 or less characters on various servers and I play where the action is.  That defines the problem, I think, but I'm not smart enough to have a solution.
Ard
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Posts: 1887


Reply #43 on: October 22, 2008, 10:35:29 AM

Yes (but no)
No.
No.
Yes (but no)

How about the lack of incentives?

The issue here isn't lack of rvr, the issue here is that you're more interested in grind and rewards vs player conflict.  I think you honestly might be in the wrong game.  The rvr game is honestly the lowest to barriers entry I've seen in ANY mmo.  The issue is the carrot, which as been discussed to death, and has been stated many times over that the rewards are being upped. 

That doesn't stop a good many people from taking keeps on any given night.

The main issue here is the same as the main issue in raids for WoW or any other mmo.  The vast gulf between players who want to do something for fun, excitement, and accomplishment, and the people who just want the carrot to use as a measuring stick for their epeen.

Seriously, if you wanted to rvr, you could have.  You CHOSE not to, through your own inaction and inability to actually talk to people.  Congratulations at failing at life.
Brogarn
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Posts: 1372


Reply #44 on: October 22, 2008, 10:36:11 AM

You know, I'm going to sort of defend Mythic on the no official forums decision, if only as a backhanded compliment. Having no official forums would be fine, if the Herald site was actually used in anything other than a pisspoor manner. Dev diaries? Barely noticeable hot fix messages? Maybe it's the design, but the customer communication that site is supposed to provide just isn't there. DAoC Herald was much better run in the days when I played DAoC.

This I completely agree with. And beyond just communication, it baffled me that I couldn't click on a server and see the current realm status for each tier. WTH happened to the good ole days of monitoring keep and relic status from work? I mean, I couldn't do anything about it, but it was awesome to be able to keep track of it. Warhammer Herald has gotten a fail in my book, so far.

As for the rest of the game, I'm certainly seeing some of the same problems I see recounted here. I'm still in new and shiney mode, though, so it'll be a bit longer before I can give an accurate assessment. I do know that I'll be sticking around for 1.1 at least, though.
Ard
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Posts: 1887


Reply #45 on: October 22, 2008, 10:36:17 AM

(god dammit, I hit quote again)
Ratman_tf
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Reply #46 on: October 22, 2008, 10:38:21 AM

I dinked around with WAR on Sly's account. The very first thing I noticed is that I don't like the chat font. That's something I'm going to be looking at for a very long time if I choose to stick with a game, and it's one of the first things I pay attention to.

Maybe there's some way to change the font, but the next thing I noticed is how sluggish the client seems. And so I really don't care to figure out if I can change the font.

If I were going to make a MMOG (larf) I think the first thing I would do is inflitrate Blizzard HQ and zap the guys coding the client with a mind sucker and get all their talent points.

So, I didn't expect to be sucked into WAR. I'm perfectly happy with WoW, but I'm a bit disappointed that it only took me Rank (level, whatever) 3 to decide it wasn't my cup of tea.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Seanzor
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Posts: 63


Reply #47 on: October 22, 2008, 10:42:37 AM

I'm a cunt!

Woah, yeah, anyone who doesn't oRvR because it feels like a waste of time with regards to character progression fails at life!  We don't know what fun is!

Sorry, players don't mold their definition of fun to the game - it's supposed to go the other way around.
Draegan
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Reply #48 on: October 22, 2008, 10:43:25 AM

I think you can change the font by right clicking on the chat window tab.
Nebu
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Reply #49 on: October 22, 2008, 10:45:43 AM

I don't think the game has failed yet and it seems to me the responsiveness from Mythic has been pretty darn good.  Maybe not fast enough, but who's been faster.

It's not a matter of haste (although the monster on the horizon makes haste an issue).  It's a matter of reacting correctly the first time.  I'm not convinced, YET, that WAR is heading in a direction that will keep it out of the abyss.  Time will tell volumes here.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Checkers
Terracotta Army
Posts: 62


Reply #50 on: October 22, 2008, 10:49:44 AM

Yes (but no)
No.
No.
Yes (but no)

How about the lack of incentives?

The issue here isn't lack of rvr, the issue here is that you're more interested in grind and rewards vs player conflict.  I think you honestly might be in the wrong game.  The rvr game is honestly the lowest to barriers entry I've seen in ANY mmo.  The issue is the carrot, which as been discussed to death, and has been stated many times over that the rewards are being upped. 

That doesn't stop a good many people from taking keeps on any given night.

The main issue here is the same as the main issue in raids for WoW or any other mmo.  The vast gulf between players who want to do something for fun, excitement, and accomplishment, and the people who just want the carrot to use as a measuring stick for their epeen.

Seriously, if you wanted to rvr, you could have.  You CHOSE not to, through your own inaction and inability to actually talk to people.  Congratulations at failing at life.

No.  The issue is that I shouldn't have to go out of my way to find conflict in a game where "War is Everywhere!".  The game world is too large and the factions are too segregated.  Objectives need to overlap.  I have never seen a Destruction player in this game outside of a scenario.  I experienced more open world PvP leveling in WoW (on a pvp server obviously) than I have in Warhammer.  This is largely because in WoW the factions are forced to quest in the same area.  I am more fearful of getting attacked questing in WoW than I am in Warhammer.  That is a fundamental problem.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 11:30:02 AM by Checkers »
Tarami
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Reply #51 on: October 22, 2008, 11:03:37 AM

I dinked around with WAR on Sly's account. The very first thing I noticed is that I don't like the chat font. That's something I'm going to be looking at for a very long time if I choose to stick with a game, and it's one of the first things I pay attention to.

Maybe there's some way to change the font, but the next thing I noticed is how sluggish the client seems. And so I really don't care to figure out if I can change the font.

If I were going to make a MMOG (larf) I think the first thing I would do is inflitrate Blizzard HQ and zap the guys coding the client with a mind sucker and get all their talent points.

So, I didn't expect to be sucked into WAR. I'm perfectly happy with WoW, but I'm a bit disappointed that it only took me Rank (level, whatever) 3 to decide it wasn't my cup of tea.
Last I checked, WoW had John Cash as lead programmer. You can't really get much better off if you want responsiveness and solid client-server performance than hi-jacking a veteran id Software coder.

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/09/1811213

This was in 2000 - so he was practically (maybe even actually) recruited specifically for WoW. Good call there Blizzard.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

- I'm giving you this one for free.
- Nothing's free in the waterworld.
Ard
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1887


Reply #52 on: October 22, 2008, 11:28:32 AM

I'm a cunt!

Woah, yeah, anyone who doesn't oRvR because it feels like a waste of time with regards to character progression fails at life!  We don't know what fun is!

Sorry, players don't mold their definition of fun to the game - it's supposed to go the other way around.

Yes, yes I am, I don't even try to hide that anymore.

I'm not categorizing all people that don't oRvR.  I'm ripping apart a horrifically bad straw man arguement.  His initial post was bitching about a lack of orvr, but it was almost completely based on his own failings, not the game's.

Anyhow, I'm giving myself an internet time out for being a dick.
Nebu
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Posts: 17613


Reply #53 on: October 22, 2008, 11:29:50 AM

Anyhow, I'm giving myself an internet time out for being a dick.

Being a dick is fine as long as you make a solid point.  No need for time outs here. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Checkers
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Posts: 62


Reply #54 on: October 22, 2008, 11:38:43 AM

I'm a cunt!

Woah, yeah, anyone who doesn't oRvR because it feels like a waste of time with regards to character progression fails at life!  We don't know what fun is!

Sorry, players don't mold their definition of fun to the game - it's supposed to go the other way around.

Yes, yes I am, I don't even try to hide that anymore.

I'm not categorizing all people that don't oRvR.  I'm ripping apart a horrifically bad straw man arguement.  His initial post was bitching about a lack of orvr, but it was almost completely based on his own failings, not the game's.

Anyhow, I'm giving myself an internet time out for being a dick.

Listen, if I'm going to pay for a self-proclaimed PvP game I don't expect to log on and have to dick around for an hour or more begging and pleading with people to willingly spend their time participating in an activity that - though fun in theory - is actually entirely counter productive to their advancement.  I am also not going to spend days and days leveling to 40 in the vain hope that somehow things will get better.  I've played these games long enough to know that things never get better.
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #55 on: October 22, 2008, 12:00:26 PM

His initial post was bitching about a lack of orvr, but it was almost completely based on his own failings, not the game's.
The game failed to provide incentification, so yes, it's the game's fault. We let virtual worlds be the sandboxy things that separate experience seekers from experience creators. Games are supposed to funnel you into what you signed up to enjoy, put there by people you paid to give you enjoyment. When that doesn't happen, it's because parts of the game fell down for you as a player. Sometimes it's easy to write that occurence off as the person not being the target demographic. But WAR had a very clear audience and missed its mark. Because of such game design things as:

1) World layout
2) Rewards (or lack thereof) in RvR
3) Travel
4) Racial pairings vs player funneling

None of these things are fine as is for the crowd this game was designed for. None of these are solved by someone willingly taking a chance spamming groups all over the place while they make the trek of one of five or however-many lakes there are just in their tier. And all need to be addressed together because indivdually:

  • Fewer lakes unto itself won't solve the social problems.
  • Solving the social problems won't solve the population splintering/compartmentalization problems.
  • World size won't make running the distance worth the effort.
  • Guaranteeing great rewards won't guarantee a fight is waiting for you unless you reduce the lakes.

The matrix of interactions is more than a magic bullet will fix. The major frustration is the actual strawman of a new no-scenarios server being held up as the best current short-term idea.

Quote from: Slyfeind wrote
I just started playing last night.
Bad Slyfeind, extending your impressions of a game based on the first few levels. Bad! You get the timeout Ard doesn't need to apply to himself Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Midama
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Posts: 18


Reply #56 on: October 22, 2008, 12:04:44 PM

 For me it's not failed yet, but in limbo. I'm not going to be in WoLK, I'd only be playing WAR to kill time and have fun. Population issues aside, the big one for me is broken and poorly designed characters.
 Order design is completely pathetic. I rolled a couple characters to play with you guys order side but i can't get past like...level 3. Bright wizard is decent but massively overplayed. Why do i have to play a retarded looking dwarf to be the good tank? Or a completely fruity elf with bland everything going on to be a range DPS.
 Destruction...awesome. My favorite is marauder, it's basically the look I'd go for if i could design appearances myself. Unfortunately, PvP mechanics in War are awful.
 I'm only in tier 1 ( i have no motivation to log in and level, already) and I'm having flashbacks to playing a warrior in Alterac valley; sit around and watch ranged characters go at it, or suicide charge over and over. From what i read, the CC later on is even worse. There's no way im going to pay to play a game to be frustrated because they can't figure out class balance.
 Range DPS classes are sad, aside from Bright wizard and Sorc, but as i said already, overplayed. Overall totally uninspiring and I've played MMOs to long to have much patience left for them to fix what should be obvious. Seriously, why so much CC? have they not played a MMO in the last 10 years?
 
HaemishM
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Posts: 42628

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #57 on: October 22, 2008, 12:09:40 PM

The main issue here is the same as the main issue in raids for WoW or any other mmo.  The vast gulf between players who want to do something for fun, excitement, and accomplishment, and the people who just want the carrot to use as a measuring stick for their epeen.

Seriously, if you wanted to rvr, you could have.  You CHOSE not to, through your own inaction and inability to actually talk to people.  Congratulations at failing at life.

See, here is where you are wrong. The vast majority of people will do the fun thing, which is keep RVR. What will happen is that the people who leveled up and geared up faster than the vast majority will likely own those players are there for "just the fun." That's fine the first few times, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if I want to be more effective, I need to level/gear up. Sooner or later, even in WAR that realization sinks in. I was barely functional in RVR at level 1-8, but the difference in performance from levels 1-9 to the performance at level 11 was massive. HUGE. By the time you hit t3, you realize that yes, you can RVR/PVP for fun in those tiers, but you'll be better at it when you are closer to the level cap for your tier. It's the Rule of 11. If the MMOG Knob goes to 11, 10 will never do.

So you go level in questing and scenarios, because that's about 1000 times quicker than oRVR leveling - which makes oRVR leveling even slower because there are now less people to play against.

khaine
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Reply #58 on: October 22, 2008, 12:10:12 PM

Long time reader , going to dip my foot in the pool here and prepare to get torn apart for first post  ACK!

In short I came to WAR for Open-RvR/PvP , that was my main knock against WoW , I liked most of it but open field PvP is my favorite and that's WoW's real weak point

I came in expecting tons of open field PvP , especially rolling on an Open-RvR server , but have found very , very little of it - I have instant 15 minute scenarios all day playing as order , but I think WoW's original AV was even better than any of the WAR ones curently

Anyway , with such a severe lack of Open-RvR , for whatever reason , it's just disappointing ,

My most fun Open PvP game was Lineage 2 , I know it had an insane grind but I had lots of fun in Castle Sieges and the danger involved in open field PvP ,

I was hoping the same would be in WAR , just without the insane grind - the grind isn't near as bad but the PvP is worse(or more scarce) , thus my main reason for wanting to play WAR is the most lacking atm

Ard
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Reply #59 on: October 22, 2008, 12:16:29 PM

The game failed to provide incentification, so yes, it's the game's fault.

Snipped the rest, because, frankly, you're dead on.  I wasn't arguing whether or not there were issues with the rvr.  There are.  It's like a baby seal that's been clubbed to death with a dead horse at this point though.  I was arguing that HIS issue with 'omg guise, theirs no RVRz' was strictly due to failings with how he said he was playing the game, not with how the game presented the opportunities. 

Quote from: Checkers
I reached level 22 and never once experienced oRvR.  Without the promised oRvR there is absolutely nothing to keep my interest.  I came to this game specifically for pvp that was not like WoW battlegrounds .

That's the straw man right there.  That was choice, not lack of rvr.

It honestly doesn't take more than a minute or three worth of zoning to find out if anything is going on with the way the game is set up currently.  It's not ideal, but it does work, especially in Tier 4 where you can actually add the battle tracker thing to show you which zones are under attack. 

Quote from: HaemishM
See, here is where you are wrong.

You're right there, and I concede that.  My bad.

And the time out was because I try not to chain respond to trolls, and I get dickish when things spiral out of control.  I hate fallacious arguments and redirection pretty much more than anything else though.

d4rkj3di
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Posts: 224


Reply #60 on: October 22, 2008, 12:19:42 PM

8.
They made Destruction cool, and made Order look like gimps. Everyone warned them about population imbalances and the potential effects, and Mythic's response was "we learned a lot from DAOC.  In reality they didn't, and in DAOC they had to cluster servers.
The corollary to this is that even though they made Order look like gimps, class balance favors Order in a couple of key areas, notably Bright Wizards in just about every respect and Ironbreaker knockbacks. From personal experience, I know of 4 players who have ragequit after ranting about BW's on vent.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #61 on: October 22, 2008, 12:22:07 PM

If you log in and want to RvR, there just is no way to do it unless you get extremely lucky and someone else already put together a warband and you happen to be looking at the right map at the right time to see it.

"Me am play gods"
Brogarn
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Reply #62 on: October 22, 2008, 12:26:09 PM

If you log in and want to RvR, there just is no way to do it unless you get extremely lucky and someone else already put together a warband and you happen to be looking at the right map at the right time to see it.

Bolded part seems like hyperbole to me.
Checkers
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Reply #63 on: October 22, 2008, 12:29:56 PM

It honestly doesn't take more than a minute or three worth of zoning to find out if anything is going on with the way the game is set up currently.  It's not ideal, but it does work, especially in Tier 4 where you can actually add the battle tracker thing to show you which zones are under attack. 

And what do you do if you there isn't anything going on?

And the time out was because I try not to chain respond to trolls, and I get dickish when things spiral out of control.  I hate fallacious arguments and redirection pretty much more than anything else though.

I'm not trolling.  I've been answering you honestly.  I did not go out of my way to initiate oRvR. 
Brogarn
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Reply #64 on: October 22, 2008, 12:34:48 PM

And what do you do if you there isn't anything going on?

Build a group, take some keeps, get the other side's attention, profit?

I'm obviously arguing from a newbie point of view without much experience with open RvR in this game, but if it's like DAoC and you want something to happen, then you make something happen. Organize a war party and start taking keeps and light up the map. It seems the system is in place and you're more than welcome to use it. Now if you want to argue that the rewards aren't up to snuff, that seems fair from what I've read. But complaining about nothing going on and then not doing something about it is silly.
Venkman
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Reply #65 on: October 22, 2008, 12:39:55 PM

I was arguing that HIS issue with 'omg guise, theirs no RVRz' was strictly due to failings with how he said he was playing the game, not with how the game presented the opportunities. 

...

That's the straw man right there.  That was choice, not lack of rvr.
Ok, I can see that. I think where we differ though (and perhaps is Checkers' point as well) is where you see a lack of RvR based on choice, I see that choice being the fundamental problem as affected by the core world design. Players aren't choosing to go to RvR in enough frequency or in enough density to drive up the probability of there being RvR to be had when they show up. For all the stuff discussed.

So he (and others) choose to play the game based on the (lack of) incentification that is a byproduct of how it's designed.

The end result is the same: a rampant belief that there's no RvR to be had. But different beliefs in the causes. THAT is where things get complicated because it's the beliefs in the causes that are at the heart of how to solve them.

As Brogarn just said: you can do a lot of this yourself: build group, light up map, others will show up (if you build/destroy it, they will come). But that is then where the world itself (size, fragmenting, travel times) gets in the way. You can call out all the people you want, but they need to think you'll be there when they show up.

This is at heart a problem with this generation of MMO gamers. WoW trained us for much faster action, and Scenarios give that too us. It's why I keep going back to wondering whether RvR even has mass potential. This is the latest and best test case of it and it ain't working so far. Some argue the solutions are easy, but we're not the ones accountable for that smiley It may be possible in the same way a Raph-world may actually work. But you still need to be able to get the resources and talent to do it right. If you lack either, then yes, it is impossible.
tolakram
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Reply #66 on: October 22, 2008, 12:42:24 PM

Let's call the following issues that I notice, might need addressed, but do not indicate a failure of the game ... yet.  Each of these issues, it seems to me, can be tweaked to make the system work much better.

1. The RvR world aspect of the game.

I had fun in both scenarios and oRvR in tier 1.  I regretted leaving tier 1 when I leveled up.

Tier 2 was less populated than tier 1 and, in my opinion, the scenarios weren't as good, but I still had some fun taking and defending a keep.  Something needs to be done to make tier 2 as approachable as tier one.  More people required to do stuff in orvr, but less people available = problem.   There has to be a fix for this, I don't see this as a major design error that will kill the game.

I understand, but have not experienced, that when you get to tier 3 you feel like you now have to get to the end game because tier 3 is mostly dead, at least on most? servers.

Something needs to be done to make RvR more approachable as you level, not more difficult.  it might be as simple as a mechanism that alerts all players in a certain level range that X location needs defenders and in response your local flight master can take you directly to the location where players are grouping to defend.  This mechanism should be usable by players who want to wage an attack too.   War is everywhere, yadayada.  I dunno, I need to feel like the world needs my help rather than I have to decide to help.  

In my opinion a fun game, at every level, removes a lot of the concern with leveling up.  

Renown gear should be the best in the game.

2.  The PvE aspect of the game.

These are experiences from Ironfist, a server with decent population.  We had a queue a few times, now listed as medium population.

The first public quest I did, in the human area, was just an absolute load of fun.  I only did it with 5 people and we had to be careful but we won it, got some nice loot, maxed out our influence, and got more nice loot.  We had fun!

The next PQ, the windmill was not as quick but I've done it numerous times on various alts, gotten good gear, and generally had fun. Each additional one tried was less fun.  Influence came very slowly and most of the PQ's needed more than a small group of people to complete.  Why?  Why isn't every public quest as easy, or nearly so, as the first one.  I'm not saying you should level up fast in public quests but you should be able to gain influence fast and get your gear.  Fun!  I'm an equal RvR / PvE player and I was hoping to be able to do most public quests without feeling like it was something hard to do, more like raiding, that needed time and organization.

If the leveling treadmill remained the same but all PQ's were easier and influence did not scale each chapter then I would be doing a lot of these just to experience them.  In doing so I would be leveling and if leveling I wouldn't be noticing the grind.  Now like I said I kind of like PvE (not a WoW player though) so I don't mind it as long as I have something interesting to do and the rewards come quickly.  Fun.

Gear gained through PQ should be the second best in the game, though equal to renown gear at each rank.   Since renown goes past rank levels renown gear is still the best in the game.  The difference between Renown gear and PQ gear might be simply cosmetic.

--- end of wall, primed for possible deletion.

The problem is I've only spread out the players more by improving each aspect.  bleh.  I can't help but think back to the idea of Darkness Falls, where to get it you had to do something.  Maybe PQ get turned off if you don't rule the tier?

It's obvious why I'm not a game designer.  :)

In conclusion, I see tweaks, not radical redesign, so I have hope.
Brogarn
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Reply #67 on: October 22, 2008, 12:46:52 PM


[snipping the long post to get to the meat and the part I agree with]

In conclusion, I see tweaks, not radical redesign, so I have hope.


Completely agree. I don't think it would take a redesign, but small tweaks, like better notification or interactive maps or things I can't think up or I'd be making a lot more money. I see a system that's fundamentally sound but needs better rewards and better ways of leading players to it.

EDIT: Removed a sentence that really didn't make sense.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 12:49:27 PM by Brogarn »
Phildo
Contributor
Posts: 5872


Reply #68 on: October 22, 2008, 12:50:11 PM

(didn't read rest of the thread, apologies if I end up parroting)

I absolutely loved the PvP in this game as a Shadow Warrior.  I have absolutely no complaints about it from a mechanical standpoint.  What made it not fun for me was the leveling grind when PvE and constant scenario queuing wouldn't cut it anymore, and the fact that my game crashed like clockwork every hour or so (which I'm attributing to compatibility issues with my graphics card).
Ingmar
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Reply #69 on: October 22, 2008, 12:50:26 PM

Way, way too early for this thread.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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