So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[Calantus]

Well my point is that it's just jousting, that being moving away from your opponent between your big hits so they can't get you with their little hits. I was just pointing out that the whole point of it is to land a powerful hit then run off so as to not get hit by the opponent until your big hit is ready again. I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

On the subject of being broken, it's absolutely broken if a good strategy is to attack the air for a bit so you can deliver a strong finisher. It's got nothing to do with the skill required or the movement going on, and everything to do with the idea that the player swinging at air on purpose means something is broken.

[Morfiend]

I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

That would be completely correct. I was playing a Herald of Xotli, which is a cloth wearing, two hand sword wielding, mage sub-class, that has very weak white hits and very strong combos with horrible defense and hitpoints.

[Falconeer]

Broken you say?
Save for the fact that swinging at air (or moving in pointless directions) has been the system in place to build up a finisher in every fighting game since Street Fighter (1987).
What's the next argument against Age of Conan? "It uses a 20 years old system for combos! It's a bad Street Fighter clone!" Yeah, go on.

And then again, you MUST NOT swing at air. Moving OUT OF RANGE of your enemy isn't a good strategy in melee combat in AoC, because that would make you swing at air. Circling, making your "swing at air" actually land on target is a good one. If you care about not being hit by a player you don't kite by going away, you kite by circling and strafing, which is exactly what Sinij said it's the broken part and I disagree with.

You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

No. He is avoiding enemy's hits by moving away from them. I said he should avoid enemy's hits by moving around them. That way he can do more damage hitting while building up the finisher AND dodging. With potions ticking heals every second if you don't sustain fire you can't kill shit in Conan.

But I explained all of this earlier. Do you just want to prove that I am wrong or you played Age of Conan enough to think that jousting is better than circling?


P.S: Look back at Sinij post, the one that started this debate. He was complaining about finishers being useless, not about "buildup hits" (white damage) hitting air. Looks like Sinij and Morfiend hate AoC melee for the opposite reasons...

[Falconeer]

I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

That would be completely correct. I was playing a Herald of Xotli, which is a cloth wearing, two hand sword wielding, mage sub-class, that has very weak white hits and very strong combos with horrible defense and hitpoints.

And the fact that your Xotli (1 out of 12 classes) dies a lot when it goes toe-to-toe with a heavy armoured character is proof that melee combat is broken?

I thought that was called "plain old 1vs1 balance issue", but what do I know?

[Morfiend]

What I have been trying to say is that the fact that circle strafing and jousting are not only viable (Yes jousting is viable, cause people can spin and still hit you while you circle) but pretty much required is part of what is broken with melee combat.

[Falconeer]

So having to move, strafe, joust, circle your enemy trying to hit him/her without being hit in a melee combat means it is broken?

My god, I rest my case.

[Morfiend]

So having to move, strafe, joust, circle your enemy trying to hit him/her without being hit in a melee combat means it is broken?

My god, I rest my case.

*sigh*

Should I even bother?

It is the fact that the game basically requires me to run away while swinging madly in the air for 2 to 4 seconds before trying to land that one last hit to trigger the combo, THATS WHAT MAKES IT BROKEN!

I wont even start in on the stamina/combos/sprint/melee/caster imbalance or the one hit combos.

[Abelian75]

I think that the man's point is that swinging in the air conferring a benefit is kinda silly.  And it does.

You might argue that it would be even better to HIT with those swings, and that's true, but the point is that it IS better to have swung in the air than to have not swung at all.  Which is bizarre.

[Lightstalker]

I think that the man's point is that swinging in the air conferring a benefit is kinda silly.  And it does.

You might argue that it would be even better to HIT with those swings, and that's true, but the point is that it IS better to have swung in the air than to have not swung at all.  Which is bizarre.

In a boxing match it isn't unusual for the participants to circle each other and throw punches that aren't meant to finish the fight in an effort to set up a punch that is meant to finish the fight.  Swinging at the air is just setting up a swing that isn't supposed to swing at the air.  Not a huge stretch of the imagination and not that far off reality.  The difference here is that it doesn't matter if the opponent reacts to your combo set-up or not, the combo still goes off.  This is where the break with reality comes as in a boxing match your setup punches won't lead to a finisher if the opponent doesn't start defaulting to block the next setup punch.

If you see the setup attack as 'swinging at the air' and nothing more you are glossing over the bit where your actions now enable actions later by causing a reaction in your opponent that leaves him open to specific attacks (presumably the one you are going to use in the future).

If you see that your opponent's reaction to your setup attacks is irrelevant then you've seen a problem with the game.

Circle of Death is not a new 1v1 combat dance in video games.  In Mechwarrior 2 the circle went away once you got past the 1v1 engagement as it mattered to show your back to an attacker (directional damage tracking/capacity).  If the complaint is that the Circle of Death doesn't go away when the number of participants increases, I'm right there with you.  If the complaint is that Circle of Death exists for 1v1 encounters...  I don't get it.

[Abelian75]

Dude, it's not like swinging at the air right in front of the dude.  He means, like, swinging four times as you run at an enemy from 30 feet away.  I'm sorry, but it's just weird.  I'm not necessarily agreeing that it's a serious design flaw in and of itself, but it certainly is an odd aspect of the combat.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with circling as you fight, though.  Some might argue against it, but it doesn't have any inherent absurdity I don't think.  The charging up of combos as you approach someone does.

[Venkman]

AoC isn't perfect and you need to suspend a lot of disbelief. But it sure has shit is no worse than melee PvP in WoW. It's just different. You like it or you don't.

[Johny Cee]

Circle of Death is not a new 1v1 combat dance in video games.  In Mechwarrior 2 the circle went away once you got past the 1v1 engagement as it mattered to show your back to an attacker (directional damage tracking/capacity).  If the complaint is that the Circle of Death doesn't go away when the number of participants increases, I'm right there with you.  If the complaint is that Circle of Death exists for 1v1 encounters...  I don't get it.

What I think the naysayers are trying to get across:


Why should we fucking tie every new game's PvP playstyle to a decade plus old mechanic that wasn't particularly fun when it was released?  Especially one that is so dependent on system performance and machine lag?

Seriously?


Because it's a crutch.  People learned how to circle strafe,  and they want to be able to use the ability to circle strafe in every PvP game that comes after. 

Player "skill" gets narrowly defined as a couple of heuristics dependent on twitch reflexes, and boom you're done.  And it's ridiculous.

I put circle strafing in the same box as bunny hopping and window dragging (remember that from DAoC?  Yah.)....  Or run through to break targeting and interrupt casters (yah,  I confess I did that all the time in DAoC). 

It's making the most of creaking mechanics to metagame the system to win,  rather than design a system that makes the experience more enjoyable via increased interactivity and a broad range of acceptable strategies.

Circling around my opponent,  hoping I don't get a lagspike,  while spamming my most damaging attack?  Ugh. 

[Trippy]

If you don't like the FPS-style combat mechanics don't play the game. There are plenty of other MMORPGs out there with the auto-target/auto-aim style combat system.

[Margalis]

Why are those the only choices?

That's one reason I dislike most PC games, the animation and character control is just so far behind consoles. Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

FPS-style combat mechanics are fairly sucky in general, but especially for games that *aren't* shooting games.

The funny thing is that circling your opponent is a real-life strategy, it's just so poorly done in games.

[Trippy]

Like Virtua Fighter controls would be easier to use in a lagtastic true 3D world  with a keyboard/mouse interface?

[photek]

Why are those the only choices?

That's one reason I dislike most PC games, the animation and character control is just so far behind consoles. Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

FPS-style combat mechanics are fairly sucky in general, but especially for games that *aren't* shooting games.

The funny thing is that circling your opponent is a real-life strategy, it's just so poorly in games.

Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat. 

[Margalis]

Like Virtua Fighter controls would be easier to use in a lagtastic true 3D world  with a keyboard/mouse interface?

There is already a Korean MMO that has VF-like combat. I haven't played it but apparently it works pretty well. I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.

It's less a tech problem than a design problem. Here is a very simple example: in most console-style games if you attack it stops your movement, or alternately does some sort of while-running attack. This tends to animate better and also prevents people from endlessly circling in that you can't attack while moving at the same speed. In a lot of PC games you have this silly looking stuff where a guy is running full speed to the side and swings a giant hammer at the same time. It looks bad, it looks like it shouldn't be effective, and while I am not a fan of realism for the sake of realism it makes the gameplay rather stupid as well.

It's another example of bunny-hop syndrome. Why the fuck is jumping around while shooting a good strategy?

Show me a single fighting game on earth where you can move and attack at the same time. The human body just doesn't work that way.

[photek]

Like Virtua Fighter controls would be easier to use in a lagtastic true 3D world  with a keyboard/mouse interface?

I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.

It's less a tech problem than a design problem.

Agree 100%. However beat'em'ups are in a very developed stage and have had a rather linear progression, there is a couple or a few guys and punches are thrown until death of enemy. It is very simple to take this concept and iterate it perfectly and then repolish it with new tech, chars and environment added. Also beat'em'ups are well known for pushing top notch on the animation front and the combat mechanics. MMO's are complex and I think changing a feature like defensive mechanics seems like a huge undertake for the devs of the MMO's released and in development now and changing that will also require redoing most abilities and attacks which probably seems like a hassle for some, while in reality it isn't for a team of skilled designers and programmers. Even for a game like WoW or AoC to use that as an example.

However I believe with the system I did I have done a massive leap in this department, if we could just get it implemented into a game. Guess we will have to wait for my game to finish to see it. So it is deifinitely a design problem and not a technical one.

[Falconeer]

What's the next argument against Age of Conan? "It uses a 20 years old system for combos! It's a bad Street Fighter clone!" Yeah, go on.

Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

[...]

I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.

Told ya.
15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back. Yay autoattack, boo circlestrafing. Yay EQ1/WoW combat, boo Age of Conan's broken and unrealistic one!

You guys redefine awesome from time to time.

[UnSub]

I think that the man's point is that swinging in the air conferring a benefit is kinda silly.  And it does.

You might argue that it would be even better to HIT with those swings, and that's true, but the point is that it IS better to have swung in the air than to have not swung at all.  Which is bizarre.

MMO PvP is all about the bizzare and how it gives you an advantage. It's about exploiting the game mechanics to the nth degree. Suicide ganking? Exploding chests? Making someone disappear with a sewing kit? If it works, it's a valid PvP tactic.

At the higher levels, the same is true of fighters like SF2, minus the sewing kits.

[Margalis]

[15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back.

It may be a step forward in terms of MMORPGs but in terms of other genres it is still way behind the curve.

Combat-centric games don't play like MMORPGs, even though MMORPGs are combat-centric. That's the main point I'm trying to make. Why not look at genres that have done combat well for a long time to see how they differ?

[UnSub]

[15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back.

It may be a step forward in terms of MMORPGs but in terms of other genres it is still way behind the curve.

Combat-centric games don't play like MMORPGs, even though MMORPGs are combat-centric. That's the main point I'm trying to make. Why not look at genres that have done combat well for a long time to see how they differ?

I keep waiting for a MMO that lets me piledriver mobs into cars and throw them through windows. That's all I ask.

As for genres that do combat well, you've got: RPGs  , FPS (and the 3rd person variant), RTS, fighters, vehicle sims... any I've forgotten?

[IainC]

What's the next argument against Age of Conan? "It uses a 20 years old system for combos! It's a bad Street Fighter clone!" Yeah, go on.

Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

[...]

I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.

Told ya.
15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back. Yay autoattack, boo circlestrafing. Yay EQ1/WoW combat, boo Age of Conan's broken and unrealistic one!

You guys redefine awesome from time to time.

EQ1/WoW style combat doesn't have to be bad, it's all about the implementation. AoC style combat isn't automatically awesome, it's all about the implementation.

[Falconeer]

[15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back.

It may be a step forward in terms of MMORPGs but in terms of other genres it is still way behind the curve.

I don't get it. We had the same old dull combat mechanic in MMORPG for years and almost everyone was hoping for any step forward. Now that we have it, it's bashing time for it is not as cool as Soul Calibur? Are we still talking about massively multiplayer games here? Should we bash the upcoming SC4 because it has character progression and itemization but not as cool as WoW? Why don't we bash apples for not being oranges?

You guys not only redefine awesome (as in "I am awesome!") but fair too.

[Merusk]

You guys don't get it! Funcom was being true to the movies!  Remember all that Sword-swinging Conan does in the air on cliffs or before engaging enemies!?  See, he was setting up his combo attack, then he'd rush in to destroy everyone.

Clearly you all just hate Conan and are too unrefined to see how epic and awesome the combat system is.

[Margalis]

I don't get it. We had the same old dull combat mechanic in MMORPG for years and almost everyone was hoping for any step forward. Now that we have it, it's bashing time for it is not as cool as Soul Calibur?

Chill out dude, I'm not bashing AOC.

This is like the guys at shoryuken.com creating a system that lets you play some fighting games online in a way far superior to what was previously done for 2D fighting games, something the HD SF2 is attempting to copy. It's great that they did it but what they did is implement the same sort of system that 3D games have been using for over a decade. So the question naturally arises, why did it take so long for someone (and some hobbyists no less, not even paid devs) to translate what was state-of-the-art in other genres into 2D games?

It's not just MMOs, in general PC game companies don't seem to know how to do hand-to-hand combat, even though examples are plentiful. Instead they take the FPS model, replace the guns with swords and call it a day.

Save for the fact that swinging at air (or moving in pointless directions) has been the system in place to build up a finisher in every fighting game since Street Fighter (1987).

Um what? You clearly are talking out your ass here. In a few Capcom games you can build small amounts of meter by whiffing attacks, but that's only a reasonable strategy in Third Strike, Alpha 2 & 3 (if you count whiffed throws) and for a few characters in Marvel vs. Capcom 2. (Storm, Cyclops) And for the most part people dislike whiffed moves building meter for a variety of reasons, and I can't think of any 3D fighting game that uses a system like that off the top of my head - not Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DOA or Soul Calibur at least.

[Falconeer]

I am trying to say that in all fighting games you have to complete a sequence of keypresses and moves unrelated to what the specal move will be.
You do it faster than in Conan and you don't have arrows showing on screen while you do it but it works the same way, it's the basis of the concept of combo.
Think about Ken's fireball or rising punch, or Honda's flurry hands or Blanka's missile sweep or whatever. You always had to perform a sequence of "wasted" actions to have the intended special move, let alone the crazy hidden finisher of followup games. What's so scandalous about having to do something similar in Conan?

Tekken, VF and the other from the 3D bunch evolved to the point that combos aren't just special moves at the end of a line of random joystick moves and keypresses, still sometimes you just aim for the final effect of a combo (especially if it's a long ranged one and you are.. jousting). What's so broken in Conan just because you have to perform a sequence for your strongest attacks?

My point:

- Conan melee combat fails miserably compared to any fighting game since 1987. It fare slightly better than Golden Axe but it's a close fight.
- Conan melee combat succeeds in merging some rudimental elements of FPSes and some rudimental elements of arcade and fighting games in the very first western action diku fantasy mmorpg.

Whoever says it's broken in my opinion should get back to Darniaq humble post:

AoC isn't perfect and you need to suspend a lot of disbelief. But it sure has shit is no worse than melee PvP in WoW. It's just different. You like it or you don't.

You may not like it, you may be used to something else. You may not be interested in MMORPGs with an action twist. But remember it the next time you'll complain about mmorpgs still being the same shit after 10 years.

[Mrbloodworth]

You guys don't get it! Funcom was being true to the movies!  Remember all that Sword-swinging Conan does in the air on cliffs or before engaging enemies!?  See, he was setting up his combo attack, then he'd rush in to destroy everyone.

LMFAO!

Good one.

[rk47]

Well my point is that it's just jousting, that being moving away from your opponent between your big hits so they can't get you with their little hits. I was just pointing out that the whole point of it is to land a powerful hit then run off so as to not get hit by the opponent until your big hit is ready again. I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

On the subject of being broken, it's absolutely broken if a good strategy is to attack the air for a bit so you can deliver a strong finisher. It's got nothing to do with the skill required or the movement going on, and everything to do with the idea that the player swinging at air on purpose means something is broken.

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=79

[Lantyssa]

Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat. 

Aren't you moving to Japan?  Spill once you're on the way to the airport.

[cevik]

Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat. 

I have it on good authority that Raph thought HAM was a brilliant idea that would revolutionize fighting in the mmog industry.

In other words, I'll believe your wonderful new idea right after I see it.   

[Tarami]

You mean a revolutionising combat system on top of social dynamics, combined with cutting edge AAA gameplay which will elevate simple play to a level never reached in game development?

It's easy. Leverage the console streamlining for gameplay, combine it with the combat dynamics knowhow pushed by Photek and Co, and BAM.

[Mrbloodworth]

Its so simple!

[Musashi]

Yea.  Every time I read threads lamenting the toils of tab-target MMO combat, I think to myself that people are just pining fore greener grass. 

New, next-gen, genre-redefining combat systems don't grow on trees.  Their scarcity is what makes the really good ones awesome.  It seems to me to be a utilitarian process.  Further, that utilitarian process is much easier said/more awesome on paper than done/implemented.  I think that while WE (the hardcore) may be ready for the Next Step in MMO Evolution, there's a fuckton of people out there with their feet wet, still proclaiming that this is awesome like we did when we first started.  And in order for that next-gen system to take control of the market, the MAJORITY of the market has to want it, not just us hardcore, message-board discussants.  Therefore, your next gen combat is miles away, I'm afraid.  It may see first light in the next Blizzard MMO at the earliest.  But not before, at least in any AAA title.  Nobody has either the balls or the money, especially in light of the exodus from Conan.

[Tarami]

A major thing about an MMO combat system is that it has to include many techniques of combat (melee, ranged, magic, pew-pew et.c.), offer some kind of interesting twist to each and still be very, very flexible as to what's possible to implement. Combat is NOT melee. It's comprised of atleast three, in feel, very different facets. Most games only do one kind, beat'em'ups do melee, shooters do ranged and so on, and can thus specialise their one system for an optimal gaming experience. Still, you don't want three completely different systems, because they'll be very, very hard to balance against eachother if you ever want to use them in a PvP setting. Which you will. Tekken versus Quake isn't very fair.

Conan's system is neat, but it begins and ends with melee. Casting is as casting were and other ranged... has just a gimmick really.