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Title: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 06, 2008, 12:16:16 AM
Quote
Age of Conan reaches one million milestone
- Standard edition sold out in numerous territories, hundreds of thousands additional copies now shipping -
- Officially number one on the charts in all major markets -

Durham, USA – June 6th, 2008 – Funcom is proud to announce that Age of Conan will pass the astounding “One Million Copies Shipped” milestone, in less than three weeks after the launch of the game. Due to overwhelming demand Funcom’s retail partner is now re-supplying retail boxes rapidly while also including new markets to the mix. As a result of the tremendous interest from gamers, Age of Conan has for the past few weeks been claiming number one spots on the sales charts across the western world – including the US, Germany, France and the UK – while receiving glowing review scores from gaming media.

Whoops. I guess M-Rated MMOGs are viable.

Join Bat Country today?

Edit: Shipped, blah blah, I know, bugger off with that shit. It'll sell 1M.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: apocrypha on June 06, 2008, 12:39:24 AM
Quote
Age of Conan reaches one million milestone
- Standard edition sold out in numerous territories, hundreds of thousands additional copies now shipping -
- Officially number one on the charts in all major markets -

Durham, USA – June 6th, 2008 – Funcom is proud to announce that Age of Conan will pass the astounding “One Million Copies Shipped” milestone, in less than three weeks after the launch of the game. Due to overwhelming demand Funcom’s retail partner is now re-supplying retail boxes rapidly while also including new markets to the mix. As a result of the tremendous interest from gamers, Age of Conan has for the past few weeks been claiming number one spots on the sales charts across the western world – including the US, Germany, France and the UK – while receiving glowing review scores from gaming media.

Whoops. I guess M-Rated MMOGs are viable.

Join Bat Country today?

Edit: Shipped, blah blah, I know, bugger off with that shit. It'll sell 1M.

Selling a million is awesome, retaining half that number once the free 30 days runs out is another thing. I'm not naysaying, I hope they do it, I like the game a lot, but they've got a lot of serious problems to address to get decent retention.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 06, 2008, 12:44:26 AM
Box sales are largely irrelevant. Shipped numbers are entirely irrelevant. Concurrent active subs is the number to look at. At launch they were quoting 700k shipped and then 400k players a week later.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 01:17:01 AM
This was as expected in terms of shipped boxes. And also that the announcement hit this week especially after most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content. However with 400.000 subscribers now, I think that number will drop after the first month. I'm expecting 250.000 or so. I don't know what they were thinking with lack of content past level 50, and patching it at a later point seems to run the EQ2 route. And EQ2 was a decent game before and it was great after the big change, but still you cannot get back even 30% of the subscribers that left even after a miracle patch, people who leave have an visual image of how it was when they left and especially if they waited for a period for it to get fixed, but nothing happened.

I like the game, it's not that, but as someone said on EU forums, it is kinda like a payed beta testing. I agree on that. I don't see it being a mass marked game at this point, I think it's headed the LOTRO route. I might be eating my words if they are fast as hell to implement what is lacking, but I'll stand on the sideline, play it casually, play 8 alts and see what happens after a while.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 06, 2008, 03:14:36 AM
Every MMOG is paid beta test. Every. Single. One. Now and forever. It's just a matter of when they think it's worth the money and whether you do or not. You're paying for a service. Not a released game. On that same not, their patches have been frighteningly fast. I'm starting to worry whether their artists and coders get sleep, food, or oxygen at all these days.

Now for fun. Mark, this isn't a stab at you, but since this is YOUR Euro guy:

Box sales are largely irrelevant. Shipped numbers are entirely irrelevant. Concurrent active subs is the number to look at. At launch they were quoting 700k shipped and then 400k players a week later.

Long Term Subs > Box Sales > Beta Testers > (http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/944/rightboxbetatickerya1.gif)

I want to know who started this fad about beta numbers and punch them right in the kisser. I fucking hate it. So, so, so much. PR Spams my inbox with this shit. And it's not just the north american market. Fuck the lot of them. PR that thinks they need to send out an update every time a number increments by 50 to 100k can crawl in a ditch and die alone.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 06, 2008, 03:24:30 AM
1: I don't work for Mark Jacobs
2: I wasn't having a dig at AoC, I was just pointing out the logical fallacy you were pursuing.

Any company will trumpet whatever numbers it thinks will be newsworthy, AoC was also making a big noise about beta registrations, a company keeping quiet about that sort of thing or shipping 1m boxes is a marketing dept not doing their job. You've missed the entire point, well done.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Murgos on June 06, 2008, 04:10:58 AM
... after most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content...

You're waaaaay out of touch.  Most players haven't left Tortage, the bulk of them won't for another few weeks.

Anyway:

Quote from: Schild
Join Bat Country today?

Does the apply for guild button not work or something?  Wtf do I have to do to get in the guild?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 06, 2008, 04:27:50 AM
Box sales are largely irrelevant. Shipped numbers are entirely irrelevant. Concurrent active subs is the number to look at. At launch they were quoting 700k shipped and then 400k players a week later.
It's not at all irrelevant.  Your concurrent active subs can never be greater than the number of boxes you sold.  The variable you say should actually be looked at is entirely dependant on the one you say is irrelevant...  If box sales double then the number of people subbed will double because with numbers this large we can only talk in percentages.  Say only 25% of people remain after the first month and become long term customers, at 400,000 sold that's 100,000 and at a million that's 250,000.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 06, 2008, 04:31:39 AM
most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content.

LOL I'm a veteran MMOG player and I've barely hit level 30.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 06, 2008, 04:39:00 AM
I really hope AoC keeps growing and tops a million subscribers.  Or at least beats peak EQ1.  We all know it'll never threaten WoW, but it would be nice if it got big enough to at least make the MMO market something besides the complete one-horse race it is now.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 06, 2008, 05:03:59 AM
Just hit 40 here...though I have a 20 Conq as well. The game is fun, I'm not sure I care how many people end up sticking with it as long as my friends do...and I see no signs of any of them quitting anytime soon.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 06, 2008, 05:28:11 AM
I would tend more towards the most people are levelling very fast. I'm in a small guild, but I'm the lowest in the guild. I know that there were like 10 copies on Wiccana of the Conal instance a week ago and there were 4 last night.

There are a load of alts being rerolled though and a lot of them are stuck in Tort.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slyfeind on June 06, 2008, 06:06:01 AM
This was as expected in terms of shipped boxes. And also that the announcement hit this week especially after most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content.

Huh. I wonder how well it would go, if 50 was the cap and then you started raiding. Then a month later, they raised it to 60, then more raids. etc. Hell with that, let's start the raiding sooner. You're capped at 30 at launch! Then raid for a month, then capped at 40, then more raiding, etc etc. (Of course, someone joining a year into the game would just see a huge level treadmill and miss all the raiding in-between.)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 06:14:38 AM
most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content.

LOL I'm a veteran MMOG player and I've barely hit level 30.

Well maybe not that much time invested, I got five characters past 30 and I consider myself to have played causually until now, but seems the "median" leveling base currently is 40-50. At least on my server (Soulstorm PvP EU) and this server was opened 4 days after US launch. Tortage takes about 4-5 hours to complete once you have done it once, 20-30 takes about 4-5 hours, 30-40 takes about 7-10 hours depending where you quest and how efficient you are. Ah well say in a week then the median will be 50, it is still Eiglophian Mountains you are hitting and finding out that you gotta grind. My question is if this is how it is at level 50-60-70, what is there for 80 endgame ? Thinking even more about it, I still think there won't be more than 250-300k subscribers in this game throughout the summer.

EDIT: I lied, I got four characters past 30. My Guardian is at 27.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Triforcer on June 06, 2008, 07:23:29 AM
Schild is an AoC troll now?  The WAR release should be an epic troll/anti-troll war on par with his 2004 anti-WoW crusade  :-) 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 06, 2008, 07:34:56 AM
huh? I'm a wat?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 06, 2008, 07:36:53 AM
Here i allways thought that Box copies went to pay for the initial investment, and was used to pay out to inverters as the first, if not largest one time pay back. Subscriptions (while being the bread and butter) pay the rest of the initial investment, and support the games ongoing costs, as well as creates a profit margin above, and after the initial investment is paid out. Also, 1 million sold is to retailers, retailers tend not to order something that wont sell, but funcom already has its money from the sale to retailers.


But someone here said box sales mean nothing....  :headscratch:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lightstalker on June 06, 2008, 07:40:06 AM
But someone here said box sales mean nothing....  :headscratch:

Boxes shipped != Boxes sold.  I think that's the point, though presumably if they are printing new boxes to put on shelves there is a high confidence that these, too, will sell.  It just hasn't happened yet and rubs the wrong way what with the early chicken counting.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: AcidCat on June 06, 2008, 07:41:24 AM
Well I've been playing every day and my highest character is 32, I also have a 17, a 14, and a 13. Though I did start a few days after the game shipped, so far I like the pace of levelling.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: apocrypha on June 06, 2008, 07:42:13 AM
Schild is an AoC troll now?  The WAR release should be an epic troll/anti-troll war on par with his 2004 anti-WoW crusade  :-) 

Well WAR and WOTLK are going to be the big slap in the face at the end of the year aren't they?

I think AoC is balanced on a knife edge. IF they can keep enough players for ~3 months and IF they keep a large enough team, with good focus and direction to fix enough of the glaring problems with AoC as it is now then they might weather the coming storm. Because 4-6 weeks after WAR live date is announced Blizzard will announce WOTLK live date and anyone trying to run a fledgling MMO with a complaining subscriber base that's just clinging on will start shitting themselves.

They've launched at a superb time in one respect. The market has grown enormously because of WoW but there's also a huge mass of people bored with the WoW grind and chasing epics, so AoC has picked up a lot of people who are hanging around waiting for WOTLK and/or WAR. But it's gonna be a short-lived honeymoon imo unless they really get the un-shiny bits polished up fast.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 06, 2008, 07:50:49 AM
But someone here said box sales mean nothing....  :headscratch:

Boxes shipped != Boxes sold.  I think that's the point, though presumably if they are printing new boxes to put on shelves there is a high confidence that these, too, will sell.  It just hasn't happened yet and rubs the wrong way what with the early chicken counting.

Yes. Sell-in (boxes shipped) only gets you to retail. It's Sell-through that talks about boxes purchased.

But it's still not irrelevant because you can't ship to retail 1 million boxes unless they think they can sell them. I have no idea what the geographic breakdown is, nor whether this is like what WoW did by shipping to different territories not at the same time (probably a logistical/localization thing but damn did it make for a good marketing message).

In any case, it's good news. It's better news than the fake attempt at hitting the "million" mark that LoTRO tried a year ago (paraphrase: "we are the second biggest MMO because we have 1 million unique characters").


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 07:53:13 AM
WoTLK is coming before WAR. EA Mythic will not do the mistake of releasing WAR before the biggest contender. Rather let people play the new WoW, realize its mostly the same shit in different wrapping and then release it a few months after when people are burned out / bored. Win win situation if release after.

PS: AoC shows that the marked really is ready for more MMOs. Thats why I'm hoping they will do well, however their biggest contender right now is themselves as someone up here wrote. 1 mill SUBSCRIBERS by the end of the summer and watch the MMO marked blossom like hell. That would be massive plus for WAR also.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 06, 2008, 07:55:16 AM
WoTLK is coming before WAR. EA Mythic will not do the mistake of releasing WAR before the biggest contender. Rather let people play the new WoW, realize its mostly the same shit in different wrapping and then release it a few months after when people are burned out / bored. Win win situation if release after.

PS: AoC shows that the marked really is ready for more MMOs. Thats why I'm hoping they will do well, however their biggest contender right now is themselves as someone up here wrote. 1 mill SUBSCRIBERS by the end of the summer and watch the MMO marked blossom like hell. That would be massive plus for WAR also.

burning crusade was much of the same shit as original wow and even if wotlk is same old same old people won't be bored of it for at least a good six months, I don't think WAR will want to wait that long.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 08:07:26 AM
WoTLK is coming before WAR. EA Mythic will not do the mistake of releasing WAR before the biggest contender. Rather let people play the new WoW, realize its mostly the same shit in different wrapping and then release it a few months after when people are burned out / bored. Win win situation if release after.

PS: AoC shows that the marked really is ready for more MMOs. Thats why I'm hoping they will do well, however their biggest contender right now is themselves as someone up here wrote. 1 mill SUBSCRIBERS by the end of the summer and watch the MMO marked blossom like hell. That would be massive plus for WAR also.

burning crusade was much of the same shit as original wow and even if wotlk is same old same old people won't be bored of it for at least a good six months, I don't think WAR will want to wait that long.

WAR won't wait that long. I'm thinking the release of WAR will happend 2-4 months after WoTLK. I think EA Mythic know what they are doing and I hope to God they suck it up, stop being pussies and make sure to let people know that WAR is a direct contender to WoW. Aim for the throat. WoW veterans like myself will realise WoTLK is the same shit two days after release, hardcore PvE crowd will be pissed that epics are so easily accessible and PvPers will not give shit about Azshara Crater and farming Arena. Still they will sell multiple million boxes, people will have active subscriptions for a while, but they know (Blizzard) that 2009 will not be their best year. Thats why they got SC2 and a new MMO coming.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 06, 2008, 08:17:58 AM
But someone here said box sales mean nothing....  :headscratch:

Boxes shipped != Boxes sold.  I think that's the point, though presumably if they are printing new boxes to put on shelves there is a high confidence that these, too, will sell.  It just hasn't happened yet and rubs the wrong way what with the early chicken counting.

Yes it does, it means boxes sold to retailers. This isn't consignment we are talking about here.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: shiznitz on June 06, 2008, 08:25:43 AM
It is not technically consignment, but retailers can return product that doesn't move after XX days (XX being some contractually defined period.) Remember that the incremental production cost of a new AoC box is quite low given the potential economic benefits of a 6 month subscriber. It is in Funcom's (and their publisher's) interest to make sure that AoC is readily available for at least the next 3 months. Then the box presence can dwindle a bit until the first expansion hits the shelves.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 06, 2008, 08:27:47 AM
Funcom should get this shit on Steam.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 06, 2008, 08:28:55 AM
nm. not the place for it. Carry on!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 06, 2008, 08:48:06 AM
WoTLK is coming before WAR. EA Mythic will not do the mistake of releasing WAR before the biggest contender. Rather let people play the new WoW, realize its mostly the same shit in different wrapping and then release it a few months after when people are burned out / bored. Win win situation if release after.

PS: AoC shows that the marked really is ready for more MMOs. Thats why I'm hoping they will do well, however their biggest contender right now is themselves as someone up here wrote. 1 mill SUBSCRIBERS by the end of the summer and watch the MMO marked blossom like hell. That would be massive plus for WAR also.

burning crusade was much of the same shit as original wow and even if wotlk is same old same old people won't be bored of it for at least a good six months, I don't think WAR will want to wait that long.

WAR won't wait that long. I'm thinking the release of WAR will happend 2-4 months after WoTLK. I think EA Mythic know what they are doing and I hope to God they suck it up, stop being pussies and make sure to let people know that WAR is a direct contender to WoW. Aim for the throat. WoW veterans like myself will realise WoTLK is the same shit two days after release, hardcore PvE crowd will be pissed that epics are so easily accessible and PvPers will not give shit about Azshara Crater and farming Arena. Still they will sell multiple million boxes, people will have active subscriptions for a while, but they know (Blizzard) that 2009 will not be their best year. Thats why they got SC2 and a new MMO coming.

Not wanting to make every thread about wow but two things

one: war won't be a direct contender, yes it might be fun but come on, have you seen it? it's got doac 2.0 written all over it. I hope one day there'll be a wow-killer but the game that does it will be better funded and better designed from the get-go.

two: a lot of vitriol about wow always seems to be reactionary with no basis in reality. People did not leave the game in droves when BC came out and trivialized their epics or all their work, nor did they leave when they saw it was just another big grind.  wotlk will be the same old but that's what people seem to like so I don't see how your argument has any logical basis.

there's fanboy-ism and apparently anti-fanboyism and both are equally delusional.  I'm just an mmo addict I guess, games don't hold my loyalty, fun does so i go where that is.

In closing and feel free to enshrine this post for posterity...if WAR releases a month or two after wotlk, it will be the single most boneheaded move in mmo history.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Montague on June 06, 2008, 08:49:41 AM
Schild is an AoC troll now?  The WAR release should be an epic troll/anti-troll war on par with his 2004 anti-WoW crusade  :-) 

Well WAR and WOTLK are going to be the big slap in the face at the end of the year aren't they?

I think AoC is balanced on a knife edge. IF they can keep enough players for ~3 months and IF they keep a large enough team, with good focus and direction to fix enough of the glaring problems with AoC as it is now then they might weather the coming storm. Because 4-6 weeks after WAR live date is announced Blizzard will announce WOTLK live date and anyone trying to run a fledgling MMO with a complaining subscriber base that's just clinging on will start shitting themselves.

They've launched at a superb time in one respect. The market has grown enormously because of WoW but there's also a huge mass of people bored with the WoW grind and chasing epics, so AoC has picked up a lot of people who are hanging around waiting for WOTLK and/or WAR. But it's gonna be a short-lived honeymoon imo unless they really get the un-shiny bits polished up fast.

Up until a week after launch I felt this way as well. However, I think that WoW fatigue is more pronounced than most people realize, plus AOC has a lot of momentum in its favor. Funcom still needs to get its shit together, don't get me wrong, but I think its more a situation of retaining their massive growth and keeping up momentum vs. a matter of success or failure. The success metric has already left the barn, IMO.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on June 06, 2008, 08:53:29 AM
Well maybe not that much time invested, I got five characters past 30 and I consider myself to have played causually until now, but seems the "median" leveling base currently is 40-50. At least on my server (Soulstorm PvP EU) and this server was opened 4 days after US launch. Tortage takes about 4-5 hours to complete once you have done it once, 20-30 takes about 4-5 hours, 30-40 takes about 7-10 hours depending where you quest and how efficient you are. Ah well say in a week then the median will be 50, it is still Eiglophian Mountains you are hitting and finding out that you gotta grind. My question is if this is how it is at level 50-60-70, what is there for 80 endgame ? Thinking even more about it, I still think there won't be more than 250-300k subscribers in this game throughout the summer.
I'm not going anywhere near this fast a rate.  I know I'm slow, but I'm easily averaging 2-3 times this.  I'm reasonably competant at games though, so I'm not sure I'm behind the curve.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: CharlieMopps on June 06, 2008, 08:56:17 AM
Funcom should get this shit on Steam.

Agree'd X10



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 06, 2008, 09:00:04 AM
I'm not going anywhere near this fast a rate.  I know I'm slow, but I'm easily averaging 2-3 times this.  I'm reasonably competant at games though, so I'm not sure I'm behind the curve.
But you're easily distracted.   *jingles keys*

My wife plays 2-3 times as much as me, and always levels slower.  She gets distracted along the way, and I just focus and grind-grind-grind at whatever game it is.  Yeah, I read quest flavor but it's usually while killing things, or on the way to the objectives.  I'd say it's a male/ female thing since all my anecdotal evidence (based on husband/wife pairs usually) points at that, but I'm certain there's females out there who blow me away on the focused "hit the next achievement/ level" mentality.  

For some of us it's the destination, not the journey.  You enjoy it AFTER you get "there."


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 06, 2008, 09:15:59 AM
WAR won't wait that long. I'm thinking the release of WAR will happend 2-4 months after WoTLK.
Holiday 2008 is sort of the guessed range for both of these launches, and there just isn't a lot of time in that window. Sure, retailers want their holiday stock by September. Raise your hand if you think WoTLK is going to launch anytime near that though :-) November or they'll do a BC again, which to me is the smarter thing: why add your noise to the holiday noise when you can go up against nobody in January... only works for hugely successful titles though.

Quote from: schild
Funcom should get this shit on Steam.
Fer surez!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Evildrider on June 06, 2008, 09:47:02 AM
Leveling is super fast in AoC..  I'm at level 46 and I've been playing DDO more, than AoC still since it came out.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 10:32:10 AM
one: war won't be a direct contender, yes it might be fun but come on, have you seen it? it's got doac 2.0 written all over it. I hope one day there'll be a wow-killer but the game that does it will be better funded and better designed from the get-go.

two: a lot of vitriol about wow always seems to be reactionary with no basis in reality. People did not leave the game in droves when BC came out and trivialized their epics or all their work, nor did they leave when they saw it was just another big grind.  wotlk will be the same old but that's what people seem to like so I don't see how your argument has any logical basis.

there's fanboy-ism and apparently anti-fanboyism and both are equally delusional.  I'm just an mmo addict I guess, games don't hold my loyalty, fun does so i go where that is.

In closing and feel free to enshrine this post for posterity...if WAR releases a month or two after wotlk, it will be the single most boneheaded move in mmo history.

One : I'm in the beta, so :nda: Wish I could say some things, but yeah.

Two : I strongly believe you are wrong on many levels with that. Its not about trivializing epics nor being a grind solely, its about having alternatives. What alternatives were there to BC? Exactly. I'm not a fanboy of A nor B, I love World of Warcraft and I love WAR, but I'm just being realistic.

I had full tier 3/2/1, full AQ gear, was High Warlord and was in the nr.2 raiding guild at the time and I can tell you from several guild views at the time of TBC level 70 dinging if there was another alternative I know at least 16 top guilds and a bunch of followers due to community splitups that would follow. Thats people in my immediate area. That had nothing to do with my epics becoming shit, but cause the same old just fucking sucked. You know what the term for insanity is ? Doing the same over and over and over without different results. Sure there are lots of shitheads playing MMOs, but I refuse to believe that 10 million people are mentally insane.

My rogue somewhere in late 2006 just for proof :
http://home.no/renom/Rogue01.jpg
http://home.no/renom/bags.jpg
http://home.no/renom/bank.jpg
http://home.no/renom/herbbank.jpg

Also :

Quote
wotlk will be the same old but that's what people seem to like so I don't see how your argument has any logical basis.

Heh.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on June 06, 2008, 11:53:19 AM
But you're easily distracted.   *jingles keys*
*pounce*

Sorry, what we were talking about?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Kirth on June 06, 2008, 11:55:41 AM
I am not keeping up with the news out of Blizzard but IMO I can't see Wrath launching this year I can however see WAR coming out this fall. In either case it is pretty obvious that funcom made a calculated risk and pushed out a game that wasn't finished in hopes people would stick with it past the release of the two W's.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 06, 2008, 01:00:38 PM
Well maybe not that much time invested, I got five characters past 30 and I consider myself to have played causually until now, but seems the "median" leveling base currently is 40-50. At least on my server (Soulstorm PvP EU) and this server was opened 4 days after US launch. Tortage takes about 4-5 hours to complete once you have done it once, 20-30 takes about 4-5 hours, 30-40 takes about 7-10 hours depending where you quest and how efficient you are. Ah well say in a week then the median will be 50, it is still Eiglophian Mountains you are hitting and finding out that you gotta grind. My question is if this is how it is at level 50-60-70, what is there for 80 endgame ? Thinking even more about it, I still think there won't be more than 250-300k subscribers in this game throughout the summer.

EDIT: I lied, I got four characters past 30. My Guardian is at 27.
I had full tier 3/2/1, full AQ gear, was High Warlord and was in the nr.2 raiding guild

Uh, casual to you is not casual to reality. What you described is hardcore play and you belong to a tiny minority of gamers.

The typical casual player probably doesn't own AoC yet. If they do, they have one character and Tortage is a huge journey.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 06, 2008, 01:16:48 PM
[You know what the term for insanity is ? Doing the same over and over and over without different results. 

The quote is actually that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and EXPECTING different results.  But more importantly, that isn't actually the definition of insanity.  Nor is it even a particularly insane way to behave, as it is quite normal to get different results from doing the same thing over and over.

(Yeah, I realize I'm being kinda obnoxious.)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 06, 2008, 03:39:36 PM
The casual gamer doesn't ever actually game, they just wake up and find themselves confused because they are thinking about playing a video game for a few seconds in the middle of the night once every fifth year. Then they roll over, go back to sleep and never think of video games for another 5 years.

If you have ever heard of Age of Conan, you are the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the bleeding-edge ultracore.  If you have ever touched an Age of Conan disc, you obviously are permanently bonded to your computer chair by several years' worth of dried feces.  If you have ever logged in, you don't really exist.


This is the Gospel of f13.
Praise to you lord, Jesus Christ.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 06, 2008, 04:11:01 PM
The casual gamer doesn't ever actually game, they just wake up and find themselves confused because they are thinking about playing a video game for a few seconds in the middle of the night once every fifth year. Then they roll over, go back to sleep and never think of video games for another 5 years.

If you have ever heard of Age of Conan, you are the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the bleeding-edge ultracore.  If you have ever touched an Age of Conan disc, you obviously are permanently bonded to your computer chair by several years' worth of dried feces.  If you have ever logged in, you don't really exist.


This is the Gospel of f13.
Praise to you lord, Jesus Christ.

It was at my expense, but I lol'd.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: K9 on June 06, 2008, 04:21:10 PM
I'm glad AoC is doing well, I hope WAR does too. Anything that helps shift the notion away from WOW=MMO can only be a good thing.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 06, 2008, 04:47:00 PM
Anything that helps shift the notion away from WOW=MMO can only be a good thing.

Just been reading YouTube comments on an AoC video.

"what a friggin wow clone..."

"wow set the mold for mmo's true but i find this game much much more enjoyable"


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Samwise on June 06, 2008, 07:24:09 PM
 :geezer:

 :cry:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 08:23:25 PM
I'm glad AoC is doing well, I hope WAR does too. Anything that helps shift the notion away from WOW=MMO can only be a good thing.

Correct and agree 100%.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 06, 2008, 09:00:55 PM
Uh, casual to you is not casual to reality. What you described is hardcore play and you belong to a tiny minority of gamers.

The typical casual player probably doesn't own AoC yet. If they do, they have one character and Tortage is a huge journey.

Well in terms of MMO's I'm considering casual play a few hours / a few days a week. Last week I've been online about three times, played a couple of hours each time, that is fairly casual. Still it is very easy to level in AoC up to level 50, I'm considering writing a guide, but in the end it is not needed. The secret to fast leveling is bomb squad playing and knowing the flow between zones. Bomb squad leveling means basically entering a place, picking up everything there is, go out and do everything, then come back and collect 1-2 levels worth of XP. Explanation of fast leveling in Tortage can be found in the Tip of the Day in AoC forums.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 07, 2008, 04:36:16 AM
Anything that helps shift the notion away from WOW=MMO can only be a good thing.

Just been reading YouTube comments on an AoC video.

"what a friggin wow clone..."

"wow set the mold for mmo's true but i find this game much much more enjoyable"


Video gamers have no sense of history - whatever platform they started playing on was "The Beginning". A whole generation is currently being raised thinking that games started with the PS3.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 07, 2008, 09:44:08 AM
If you had said "Wii", I might have believed you. PS3 is for everyone who was already in the industry... that began with PS2  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 07, 2008, 10:48:16 AM
AoC has under 600k subscribers at this point in time. It's the #1 selling game in most territories if you count the GTA4 360 and PS3 editions separately. There's no doubt it's a major success, but we could probably tone down the cromlicking a bit.

They have the momentum now; they just need to maintain it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 07, 2008, 12:36:16 PM
cromlicking

Genius.  AoC fanboys are now cromlickers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 07, 2008, 04:29:28 PM
Thank you, I hope it catches on. Nothing will ever top "vanboi" though.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 07, 2008, 10:59:52 PM
If you had said "Wii", I might have believed you. PS3 is for everyone who was already in the industry... that began with PS2  :grin:

You're right - Wii would have been a better choice.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Fordel on June 07, 2008, 11:14:41 PM
Of course the Wii is the system that will let you play a bunch of games from 'the beginning'.

Or at least a fairly large and significant beginning.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 08, 2008, 03:11:58 AM
They have the momentum now; they just need to maintain it.
From what I've heard, there's two significant solvable problems with AoC that they need to work on, a bunch of lesser ones, and one unsolvable one:
The two big ones:
1) PvP has no actual point. This is being worked on, but the devil is in the details. Hell, it took WoW three attempts to get a halfway working PvP system, DAoC wrecked theirs with a single expansion, and so on. It's not an easy thing to do, especially in a diku-type mmo.
2) Shared dungeons are beginning to turn into EQ-style camp checks on the busiest servers (poor itemisation + no TLC + grey cons don't attack + much slower respawn on named than trash mobs = Players 20 levels over the zone wandering it, one-shotting the named for loot, then wandering out again). I'm expecting TLC to be added within the next two or three big patches...either that, or a reitemisation of end-game loot that turns it into "Raid or die".

(The unsolvable one being, of course, the system requirements).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 08, 2008, 03:20:21 AM
The unsolvable "problem" is solved by "time."

Not unsolvable if you ask me. This is roughly the system requirements for EQ2, though it'll run (not well) on an EQ2 era machine. I really don't see this as too much of a problem. Especially once it's optimized (which right now, it is not, in any way, not for lower end folks at least). My computer simply muscles through it. Pure brute force there.

As for the other 2. PVP having a point will surely be fixed, though everyone competing will probably be 80 by the time it does, so whatever to that.

And that last one is pretty much easilly solved. Just instance some of that shit. Cistern - where it's REALLY a problem - is where it needs to be fixed. Everywhere public, sure, sometimes it's annoying, but it's not like there aren't a ton of other quests you can't go and do (for levels 1-60 that is). Again, easily fixed.

I think the biggest problems right now, that are VERY easily solved, are itemisation, crafting, and guild cities (particularly this one - being the only real money sink and being totally worthless).

I've done some math, and I'm gonna get some tier 2 armor made on monday by someone (I hope), all using Tussah silk for 3 slots, and gem that shit up, I think I can make totally grotesquely overpowered armor. At least 99% confident I can. Stuff that will easily take me to 70 if not 80.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 08, 2008, 05:43:03 AM
Ultimately, the game is broken in the usual fun ways. FotM class chasing, out-of-whack item abilities, public spaces, abilities. All of this stuff requires players find ways to work around them. That gives a deeper sense of ownership than the usual bind-on-pickup item can.

It's also an emotional rollercoaster for people who haven't lived through it before. Eventually your T2 armor on your 80 PoM is going to yield shit in some way, either by the armor being nerfed, the class being nerf, the class being changed, or something else. But for now the overpoweredness is more poignant than any contrived well-balanced game could deliver. You (not you personally) know in your heart it's wrong and is going to change, but you're having fun right now. Later on, you'll either have moved on before the changes, or so invested in the one character you'll be pissed that it changes in ways much more so than a 1% stat adjustment on some mid-endgame gear could piss you off.

There's something to be said for that design approach. However, this isn't really the result of a concerted effort to create this emotional attachment. It's more a byproduct of making stuff up as one goes  :grin:

Ultimately that's what sucked me back in too.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Xanthippe on June 08, 2008, 07:11:38 AM
Anyway:

Quote from: Schild
Join Bat Country today?

Does the apply for guild button not work or something?  Wtf do I have to do to get in the guild?

The apply for guild button does not work.  Go to the AoC subboard and then the Bat Country subboard and the roster - look for the people who can invite to guild when you're online, and send a tell over.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 08, 2008, 10:22:30 AM
So what we have is a thread where F13 takes press releases from Marketing and declares AOC a huge success?

Welcome the fanboi zone.  Be sure to add some links to the Vault Network on the main page.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Aez on June 08, 2008, 11:08:20 AM
To me, it just demonstrates how much of a failure every releases since WoW have been.  I can't believe how bad the development studios and producers are in this market.  There's millions of gamers out there waiting to throw their money at a good game but they keep releasing thrash after thrash.

Imagine if the movie industry released one AAA movie every 4 years and all the rest were B movie. Even Conan is just a refreshing B movie, it'll take an other year before it's a finished AAA game.
     


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: apocrypha on June 08, 2008, 11:13:24 AM
Imagine if the movie industry released one AAA movie every 4 years and all the rest were B movie.

Actually that's pretty much describes my opinions of the drivel that comes out of Hollywood these days.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 08, 2008, 11:27:08 AM
So what we have is a thread where F13 takes press releases from Marketing and declares AOC a huge success?

Just more proof a bunch of veterans do not the market make.

Any word on the breakdown between US and EU territories?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 08, 2008, 01:20:02 PM
So what we have is a thread where F13 takes press releases from Marketing and declares AOC a huge success?

Welcome the fanboi zone.  Be sure to add some links to the Vault Network on the main page.

AoC is a success. That much was obvious when my brother-in-law couldn't find a retail box within a 100 mile radius of his house. We'll see if it will be a continued success.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 08, 2008, 01:55:39 PM
AoC is a success. That much was obvious when my brother-in-law couldn't find a retail box within a 100 mile radius of his house. We'll see if it will be a continued success.
Again, AoC's marketing has been a success, the game will be a success if an appreciable portion of the boxes sold turn into subscriptions when the free play period expires. At this stage in the game people are mostly still buying based on hype and marketing. A million boxes is a triumph for Funcom's marketing dept but it's too early to declare victory until you have players paying to play.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 08, 2008, 03:44:25 PM
So what we have is a thread where F13 takes press releases from Marketing and declares AOC a huge success?

Welcome the fanboi zone.  Be sure to add some links to the Vault Network on the main page.

AoC is a success. That much was obvious when my brother-in-law couldn't find a retail box within a 100 mile radius of his house. We'll see if it will be a continued success.

Busy general gaming forum on a broadband internet news site - not a gaming site: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-threads.cfm?f=8

Their threads get archived at about 80 pages and "part 2" gets made etc. AoC thread is up to part 5 already.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 09, 2008, 05:45:57 AM
AoC is a success. That much was obvious when my brother-in-law couldn't find a retail box within a 100 mile radius of his house. We'll see if it will be a continued success.
Again, AoC's marketing has been a success, the game will be a success if an appreciable portion of the boxes sold turn into subscriptions when the free play period expires. At this stage in the game people are mostly still buying based on hype and marketing. A million boxes is a triumph for Funcom's marketing dept but it's too early to declare victory until you have players paying to play.

I'm glad someone understands what I'm talking about.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 09, 2008, 07:20:55 AM
People around here didnt expect a million by sold by any stretch, at least if you had been following the threads around here you would see that.

Its a good start, not sure why all the haters around here consider it failure. Like AoC or hate it, signs point to success.

...

My guess is Warhammer doesn't sell as many boxes or retain as many subs.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 09, 2008, 07:30:29 AM

Its a good start, not sure why all the haters around here consider it failure. Like AoC or hate it, signs point to success.


So because some folks are saying "its too soon to tell" they are haters.  My Fanboi alert just went off.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on June 09, 2008, 08:07:08 AM
SWG sold a ton of boxes, how'd that work out?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 09, 2008, 08:31:19 AM
People around here didnt expect a million by sold by any stretch, at least if you had been following the threads around here you would see that.

Its a good start, not sure why all the haters around here consider it failure. Like AoC or hate it, signs point to success.

...

My guess is Warhammer doesn't sell as many boxes or retain as many subs.

Who said it's a failure? I agree that signs point to success I'm just saying it's too soon to start the victory parade.

At this stage the people buying it aren't buying it because it's a good game, they're buying it because Funcom's marketing dept have worked their asses off and have created a huge amount of buzz about the game. In a month we'll see if the popular vote says the game is a success.

There are largely three types of MMO player. You have the early adopters (people like you guys) who follow games in development and decide based on research into feature sets, released info and your own personal metrics whether to play a game. Traditional marketing is mostly wasted on you because you see the people behind the curtains.
The second set are the ones who are receptive to marketing. They'll have a rough idea of what is happening in the MMO sphere but rely mostly on marketing and hype for their buying decisions. The last lot are the followers. They tend to pick up new games by osmosis - basically they play where their friends are. If the guild packs up and goes to a new game they'll go too but otherwise they will be quite happy trying to get their twenty-fifth alt to max level in their current game.

Funcom are pushing a million boxes at the second group and some of the first group. The third group will be what makes the game a success though and they'll only get those if the reports from the early adopters are all good. We'll find out if that's the case in a month or so.

By the way, on the day it was released, the WAR CE pre-order was the single biggest selling item on amazon.de. It's also sold out in a lot of territories despite the fact that the game is still under NDA and is some months away from release. Signs point to success but again, no 'we aer winnar' dances here until we have people converting their purchase into subs.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lum on June 09, 2008, 08:35:43 AM
So what we have is a thread where F13 takes press releases from Marketing and declares AOC a huge success?

Welcome the fanboi zone.  Be sure to add some links to the Vault Network on the main page.

It's ok to admit you enjoy an MMO. Really!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: waylander on June 09, 2008, 09:13:51 AM
I have 150 people on my guild roster for an AOC PVP server. As of last night 79% were level 50+, and hitting massive bottlenecks. The further you get into the game, the worse the bottleneck gets. There is a big lack of content for levels 55-64, and again at level 75-80.

The game shines up to level 40 but beyond that too many classes have high level powers that don't work, loot tables don't make sense, there aren't enough exp camps/quests to level fluidly, and large scale PVP totally doesn't work due to lag. LotD and Sinister fought a 48vs48 in the Keshetta zone most of the weekend, and it was a 1 FPS slideshow complete with the extra crashes.

Travel is insanely slow, mounts cost too much for too little gain, guild cities require a lot of work to build but the benefits aren't tangible, and resource mode farming is boring as hell.

I still like the game, but it was obvious that they didn't have a lot of content ready to go after level 49 so the players are feeling lots of pain due to that.  If they don't fix it by the end of June, they're going to be losing lots of subs.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 09, 2008, 09:32:27 AM
I hit 60 last night and the change in population levels is stunning.  Field of the Dead is crammed with people spread over many instances but Thunder River only had one and I still didn't bump into too many people.  Those I did find were mostly 57-59 and trying to get some quests.  I'm thinking once it becomes clear that you have to just kill mobs without a quest people are either leaving or rolling alts.  A lot of people playing have probably never been in a game where you have to go in a circle killing everything you see for hours on end and aren't willing to do it.  I tried to replace my armor but there was very little available 60 gear.

I have no idea what the level 80 people are doing right now.  They burned out the content, don't have enough people to raid with, crafting sucks, you can't do endgame PvP until you get a Tier 3 city to build the battle keep...

I'm probably going to stop levelling and just gather resources for our tier 2 city, after I do my destiny quest and get to speak to THE MAN.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: fuser on June 09, 2008, 09:44:19 AM
I still like the game, but it was obvious that they didn't have a lot of content ready to go after level 49 so the players are feeling lots of pain due to that.  If they don't fix it by the end of June, they're going to be losing lots of subs.

I really wonder what their retention rate is going to be once people hit this.

The SoE two months free is a masterstroke as I watch the beta launcher download the client.  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: eldaec on June 09, 2008, 10:54:04 AM
Time to fire up the Wayback machine...

Age of Conan

Sairon: 600k
Trouble: 600k
Modern Angel: 500k
Riggswolfe: 400k
Shapechanger: 350k
Soln: 350k
Darniaq: 300k
WindUpAtheist: 300k
Xuri: 300k
HRose: 250k
Evangolis: 240k
Falconeer: 200k
Simond: 200k
HaemishM: 200k
Lantyssa: 175k
Stray: 150k
Damijin: 150k
Unsub: 150k
Strazos: 111k
Arthur Parker: 90k
Datagod: 70k
Eldaec: 40k
Waylander: 40k
Cheddar: 35k
Comstar: -
Angry.bob: -

1 million shipped, I would imagine implies about half of that is expected to be sold inside a month, and about 30% retention beyond month one?

That gives us a likely figure of 150-200k subs at end of month one, but if the game keeps going, we're looking at 400-800k by Christmas?

Still more successful than the consensus opinion above.


But I do wonder if AoC is going to test to destruction the theory that less grind = profit.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 09, 2008, 11:35:03 AM
There is a grind from about halfway in.
Mainly because the actual content at that point is sparse to the point of almost non-existence, but still....


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 09, 2008, 11:48:43 AM
So what we have is a thread where F13 takes press releases from Marketing and declares AOC a huge success?

Welcome the fanboi zone.  Be sure to add some links to the Vault Network on the main page.

It's ok to admit you enjoy an MMO. Really!

This is the internets, where enjoying this is like totally uncool.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: HaemishM on June 09, 2008, 12:01:00 PM
I'm glad to say my initial predictions about Conan numbers were wrong. I expected the game to be fundamentally broken on release, not broken in well-hidden ways taht don't appear until after the free month for most people.

I still think we should wait and see what the numbers are like in a month before we declare it a universal success. As someone else said, SWG sold a million boxes... eventually. It never got a million concurrent subs.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 09, 2008, 12:06:54 PM
I was in the beta since late october 2007, so I had some actual gameplay experience, and I thought it would sell through 150k too. The very first quest in the entire game was broken with a conversation loop. Weeks before launch it ran slow as molasses and characters clipped through terrain and fell through bridges. It was a frickin' dog. Then came the magic patch just before launch. That changed everything.

No need to wait; it's a success. Even if most of those first month buyers don't continue playing, the majority won't remember to cancel their subscriptions. It's no DDO. The question is if they can continue to pull in players months after release, and that's contingent on late reviews and word of mouth from content patches.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 09, 2008, 12:16:19 PM

Its a good start, not sure why all the haters around here consider it failure. Like AoC or hate it, signs point to success.


So because some folks are saying "its too soon to tell" they are haters.  My Fanboi alert just went off.

To be fair, i was the original AoC fanboi around here. True story.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 09, 2008, 03:24:07 PM
The mass market doesn't:

* Preorder.
* Buy collectors editions.
* Read forums.
* Have premade guilds.
* Play often.

People hitting the level 50+ content gap are the drinking cape market, not the mass market.

People like us may have 150 people in our guilds wondering what to do next, but we are all mutant freaks.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 09, 2008, 08:08:52 PM
Although it's impossible to say for sure, I think a lot of these players are those branching out from WoW for the first time. They'll be on a "let's see what this is like + BLOOD +BOOBIES!" exploration to see if they have found a MMO to replace WoW.

I do think the interest levels in AoC finally point to WoW growing the MMO audience size, who won't go off and play some half-assed MMO or Korean adapation but will consider another well-marketed, well-presented MMO. It will be interesting to compare WAR's release to AoC's, but I expect it to be very similar if not larger (because people might be looking to leave both WoW and AoC at that point in time... unless WotLK is awesome / has the hype, since I haven't been following its launch date).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lightstalker on June 09, 2008, 11:26:38 PM
...
Weeks before launch it ran slow as molasses and characters clipped through terrain and fell through bridges. It was a frickin' dog. Then came the magic patch just before launch. That changed everything.
...

Disable Debug Tracing == magic patch  :  A secret formula for making both Devs and Players happy?

Synchronization issues and sluggish response sounds a lot like an instrumentation related performance hit; admittedly I've played neither the beta nor the release and one would wonder why they just didn't say it was their logging enabled client.  Well, the obvious answer to that is that they'd be revealing all their asserts, unfinished stubs, and vulnerabilities.  So Magic Patch and "Old Client" it is then.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 10, 2008, 12:00:19 AM
It wasn't just that sort of thing, but yea, that was obviously part of it. There was an unbelievable amount of actual fixes as well.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 10, 2008, 05:14:59 AM
There's also the fact that Funcom was basically the progenitor of the "I swear we have a seekrit patch for release that will make every technical problem go away that we'll push out with the release patch trust us everything works A-OK on our internal test server" last-week-of-beta lie back in AO. They could have given everyone a detailed, technical explanation of the issues and why they have the solution ready and nobody would have believed them.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 10, 2008, 06:48:41 AM
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13423.0

This is why AoC is/will be a success. It really is fun. Even to a buncha jaded old vets like us. Fuckin' schild has admittedly 200 hours played.

Hope WAR comes correct with some fun combat.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: HaemishM on June 10, 2008, 06:53:42 AM
...
Weeks before launch it ran slow as molasses and characters clipped through terrain and fell through bridges. It was a frickin' dog. Then came the magic patch just before launch. That changed everything.
...

Disable Debug Tracing == magic patch  :  A secret formula for making both Devs and Players happy?

Just about every beta I've ever been in that ran like shit, the devs claimed it ran like shit because of "debugging code that would be turned off in release." You know what? Other than AOC, NONE of them made a bit of difference like the change AOC had from one day of open beta to the next. Though I'm not a fan of the game nor am I playing, I have to give Funcom credit for actually being the first dev team whose magic patch/removing debugging actually worked. This time.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 10, 2008, 08:08:18 AM
I'm pretty sure the biggest improvement had to do with improving loading of textures to be non-blocking.  Nearly up until release your client would hitch and freeze whenever you encountered new textures that had to be loaded.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 10, 2008, 10:39:38 AM
Long, destructive review. (http://www.yougamers.com/reviews/19142_age_of_conan_hyborian_adventures/)

Here's the final part:

Quote

Verdict: Major Disappointment

[...]

Age of Conan isn't the worst attempt to compete with WoW in the recent years - that honor goes to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - but still it's a failed attempt in many ways. It's not different enough to avoid unflattering direct comparisons, and when you scrape off the pretty visuals and put the actual meat of the gameplay next to Blizzard's juggernaut, Age of Conan falls on its face. In fact, it doesn't compare very favorably even when you size it against the actual gameplay offered by old timers like Dark Age of Camelot or Everquest 2. Shiny visuals and boobies are not enough to cover up the unfinished and poorly designed gameplay. Next contender, please.

I don't know why am I quoting this. I strongly disagree with it and I am scared by people like this Jarno Kokko.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 10, 2008, 11:15:25 AM
I don't agree with it, but I think that's a pretty fair review.

It all depends on how much fun you're having with the combat system. It is nothing more than a bunch of button mashing, not a lot different from other systems. If you can suspend disbelief and go with it, well I'm finding it fun. If that reality sticks in your mind, you're probably not going to.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Engels on June 10, 2008, 11:23:10 AM
Uhm, a bunch of button mashin as opposed to what? I'm all about an MMO that lets me use my guitar hero plastic or the console steering wheel, but we're not there yet :P


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 10, 2008, 11:47:39 AM
It seems so strongly venomous I'm trying to figure out who is sponsering him.

I mean, out of all my RL and internet buddies I have had one that quit after two weeks. Everyone else seems to be enjoying the shit out of it.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: AcidCat on June 10, 2008, 11:52:54 AM
I don't agree with it, but I think that's a pretty fair review.

It all depends on how much fun you're having with the combat system.

Yeah, that elusive fun factor can make you ignore a lot of flaws. When you're having fun, the problems seem minor. If you're not, they just seem magnified. I think many of that reviewer's complaints were completely spot-on. I think as the newness of the game starts to fade in the next month or two a lot of opinions will gradually change.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on June 10, 2008, 12:22:15 PM
It seems so strongly venomous I'm trying to figure out who is sponsering him.

I mean, out of all my RL and internet buddies I have had one that quit after two weeks. Everyone else seems to be enjoying the shit out of it.
Yet from my circles, I know a single person that has stayed with it.

I actually agree quite a bit with that review, even if it's a bit much vitriol at times. He mentions pretty much every issue that I'm finding that are keeping me from enjoying the game. Plus some elusive ones that I had missed, which aren't exactly flattering either. As it is I'm not really finding one good (much less several) reason to log on to Conan specifically, rather than any other diku. It doesn't seem to offer my preference of fun and it covers very few areas of funness (as everything other than combat is currently broken to some extent).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 10, 2008, 01:04:14 PM
I'd gladly read a review people are calling fair. But.

1. 8 pages long.
2. That site is slow and impossible to read.

Can someone C&P the passages and bold the worthwhile parts. He needs a tl;dr version.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 10, 2008, 01:18:55 PM
Quote
Yet from my circles, I know a single person that has stayed with it.

A bunch of us, unfortunately the core raiders in the guild, left EQ2 for AOC and I've only seen a few of them still logging into Conan. Unfortunately, they haven't resurfaced in EQ2 either.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on June 10, 2008, 01:23:57 PM
A bunch of us, unfortunately the core raiders in the guild, left EQ2 for AOC and I've only seen a few of them still logging into Conan. Unfortunately, they haven't resurfaced in EQ2 either.
Many of us left LotRO to play AoC and we're in the exact same situation. The guilds in both games are desolate.

In other news;
Noteworthy are the tags for that review.

"age of conan   funcom   boobies (http://www.yougamers.com/tagsearch/?s=boobies)"

Go on. I know you want to click it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tale on June 10, 2008, 01:32:58 PM
Uhm, a bunch of button mashin as opposed to what? I'm all about an MMO that lets me use my guitar hero plastic or the console steering wheel, but we're not there yet :P

I always wanted to drive around Plane of Fear in an SUV.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 10, 2008, 02:00:35 PM
Quote
Yet from my circles, I know a single person that has stayed with it.

A bunch of us, unfortunately the core raiders in the guild, left EQ2 for AOC and I've only seen a few of them still logging into Conan. Unfortunately, they haven't resurfaced in EQ2 either.
Have you tried looking in Azeroth?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 10, 2008, 03:29:17 PM
Are they a site even worth reading? Falc, why does this review in particular bother you? There's been a good amount of scathing indictments of AoC.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 10, 2008, 04:32:26 PM
Maybe because it's reasonably well written and fair (Numtini's view-I'm still reading it)? It's worse to find something admirable in something you disagree with, because they you have to question your own position.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 10, 2008, 04:59:09 PM
I should have been clearer: I was asking why Falc cared about this particular review over the other ones, and in the context I was wondering if the site was otherwise worth reading. I'd never heard of it before.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on June 10, 2008, 05:29:21 PM
As an interested but uninvested bystander (my machine can't possibly handle it, it barely tolerates EQ2) what I see in the review is a list of broken and unfinished things from someone who really wanted to like the game.  Lots and lots of very specific, very broken, very obviously not working as intended things.  Brings to mind SWG at release, to be honest, swapping SWG's server issues for AoCs client issues.  Lots of avant-guard push-the-envelope ideas, some of them even good, but everything unfinished and most things broken in some way or another.

So, yet another game released before it was ready?  And it still sold a million boxes?  Now that's a success by any marketer's (or fanboy's) definition!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 10, 2008, 08:27:11 PM
Problem to me was the only thing he ever compared it to was WoW.

Maybe the reviewer forgot the endgame and PVP state of Wow when it was released. Anyways, people will either like it or not like it. I seriously had a riot tonight fighting outside a town called Tesso. PVP is the win, fuck the rest.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lum on June 10, 2008, 08:38:53 PM
It seems so strongly venomous I'm trying to figure out who is sponsering him.

No one, he's just strongly opinionated (I remember him from the DAOC beta boards). He posts as Jarnis... thought he had an account here but I'm not finding it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 10, 2008, 09:04:06 PM
Quote
Character art, animation and spell effects are even more detailed than the scenery, and while there is some visible "skating" and "rubberbanding" when other players move around you, animation and movement is far more realistic than in Lord of the Rings Online. It can't quite touch World of Warcraft, but what it loses in animation quality and smoothness, it takes back in the amount of detail and texture quality.

When you venture beyond the mid-level zones, things get slightly more uneven and at times there are fairly annoying visual bugs in the scenery - floating objects, missing or misplaced textures and visible polygon seams. They are not a game-breaking issue, but they betray the rush to get the visuals done in time for launch, and in a way they stand out more than they really should simply because the scenery is otherwise so beautiful.

Not as realistic as WoW, really?  REALLY?


Quote
Performance?
YOU NEED TWO WHOLE GIGS OF RAM AND IT DOESN'T LOAD ALL FOUR OF MY CORES EVENLY!!!!

Quote
Innovative Combat Mechanisms

This fresh take on MMO combat is probably the reason why so many have praised the game as "new" and "fresh", but once you have spent couple of evenings spamming couple of buttons constantly to fight off even the weakest trash monsters, the practical benefits of an autoattack system become apparent.

Age of Conan isn't dramatically different from its competition - anyone who has played Warrior, Rogue of Feral Druid in That Other Game knows very well that high level melee combat involves plenty of button mashing over there as well, and same is true for most other MMO games. The remaining differences are minor - sure, you hit multiple opponents if they are in your frontal arc, but that's as innovative as hitting Cleave with your Warrior. All Age of Conan really did was to add collision detection and turn almost every attack into an area or cone effect, capable of hitting multiple foes.

Then there are the melee combos - great in theory, nothing too special in practice.

this innovation breaks into small bits when you try to apply it to PvP combat. In fact, the whole combo system degenerates melee PvP to circle running as each player keeps running around so the enemy can't pull off a potentially devastating multi-hit combo - at least until a third player comes along and nukes both melee characters into smoldering piles of goo. "Exciting".

As opposed to the melee in WoW, where people run around in circles.  Also, any melee who knows wtf they're doing isn't doing -that-


Quote
Death - A New Way To Travel

Some whining about how if your healer dies in a dungeon the group will usually suicide back to the healer as he can't solo to you.

It also turns death into a cheap teleportation tool - just check where the closest spawn point is, and get killed. I don't mind non-existing death penalty from PvP combat - that's only smart - but when people go suicidal just to avoid walking, something is seriously wrong with the game.


Agree on the travel point, but that has alot more to do with travel than death.

Quote
Server Types

PVP servers are gankfests, shocking.
Culture-PVP is stupid because only stygia has mages.

Hope You Like Quests

Quests are still killing things and bringing stuff to people!
Voiceovers stop at 20.
Sometimes you have to group, and sometimes you don't, and grouping can be annoying sometimes.

Zone design is as uneven as the graphics - some areas are wide open and for a moment you might think you are adventuring in a wilderness. Others are designed like single player levels from a crappy first person shooter - one or two narrow paths, filled with enemies ready to attack you as you advance - and should you have to return later to do some quest at the far end of such a zone - yes, you get to kill a pile of mobs on the way again. In fact, some outdoor zones appear to be little more than dungeons without a roof, and the number of open adventuring zones is shockingly small, just nine zones.
[/quote]

I really don't understand bitching about not having enough variation in half the of the review, and then bitching about the variation.
Wait, yeah I do.

Quote
Dungeons! Raids! Endgame!

Content stops at 40, hellooo grind!
Bitching about unlocking new tiers of feats every 5/10 levels.
Bitching about dungeons being public instances.

Spot on with the content stopping at 40, unlocking new feats every 5 or 10 levels doesn't bother me at all, and the ONLY dungeon I've run into any problems with is the cistern/main system, which I'll bet is going to get changed posthaste.

Quote
Other Bits - Crafting, UI, Customer Support

Nodes regen slowly, and gankers gank people near them on PvP servers.
High level crafting requires the guild-city buildings for some items, I should be able to make the best stuff solo!
WoWs UI is perfect and you can customzie everything and AoCs is poopy.
Not enough inventory space, and you can't buy another bag. (quote - Your inventory is full. It will be always full. Only one bag allowed in Hyboria.)
Petition queues are fucked, no phone support for billing.

Quote
Fundamentaly Broken Bits

Disjointed Game Wold
The game world is designed as a set of zones that are not physically connected to each other, and you constantly run into barriers - usually visible, but sometimes invisible - and both types prevent you from exploring the local area any further. Major bits of the scenery are just set pieces - pretty, but just background graphics. Major parts of Old Tarantia look majestic, but are in reality inaccessible, and same thing repeats in the other two starter hub areas - Conarch Village is probably the best of the bunch, but it is surrounded by an impassable wooden stockade, and the only way to venture outside is to use one of the designated zone points. Khemi being a small island is surrounded by water you are not meant to cross - and if you do, you find out that everything beyond the island is just fake.

Misused Instancing

Instead of a single dynamically adjusting game world where you can meet your friends if you just walk to the same spot on the map, every non-city zone in the game is instanced. Depending on the player load, there can be easily 8-9 identical copies of a zone up at any given time, and each of them has so few players that you might mistake Age of Conan as a single player game

Yet at the same time Age of Conan dumps the universally accepted fix to avoid boss camping and most dungeons are public instances that get copied just like the outdoor zones - so it's highly likely that the end boss of your dungeon is being camped by a Chinese gold farmer.

Kindergarten Economic System

Items do not decay, and you do not have to repair anything, you do not pay for skill training, travel is free and in general there are no constant "money sinks" to keep the inflation in check.

While there are plenty of other bugs and minor problems that will get fixed over time, all these fundamental issues drag down the gameplay score as they run so deep that they would require major re-working of the game and it's highly unlikely to ever happen.

There is also a mile-long list of bugs and broken bits about Age of Conan. While the first 20 levels in Tortage are fairly polished, even there you'll notice the incredible disappearing character bug.

Author goes on with a 1/2 page diatribe on NPCs loading and popping up in front of you, and that -this- is the reason he quite AoC.
Also bitching about boss loot.

in addition to abilities and stats that do nothing, we have abilities that get worse as your character gains experience and levels. Or how about the silly fact that Age of Conan's weapon swing time depends on the duration of the visual swing animation, and female characters swing their weapons about 25% slower than males - so every female melee character does 25% less damage over time!


The whole females do less damage thing is news to me, I'd like to see some parsed damage logs that say that.

And finally...
Quote
Scores
To learn more about our scoring methodology, please click here.

Gameplay -66-  Buggy, unfinished, poorly balanced and lacking in content. Clumsy user interface, over-reliance on instancing and general lack of immersion doesn't exactly help. It's better than Vanguard, but not by much.

Graphics -87- At times extremely pretty, but maddeningly inconsistent with many areas appearing to be unfinished. Character animation is passable, but the ancient curse of moonwalking and sliding monsters rears its ugly head occasionally.
(I can't remember seeing moonwalking or sliding monsters once, not to say it never happens, but I can't remember it.) 

Audio -93- Excellent music and good sound effects - there is no obvious corner-cutting and audio is definitely the strong point of Age of Conan. 

Technology -81- Age of Conan doesn't crash (much), and the servers seem to work. The engine is fairly advanced, but there are plenty of bugs left and it still needs some serious work to weed out remaining visual and performance issues. Much-promoted DX10 went missing somewhere along the way, even if the box still claims support.

OVERALL -76- Age of Conan might turn out to be a fair game at some future date, but we can't score a game based on future promises. As it stands now, it's incomplete, rushed and buggy, with major game systems utterly broken. Recommended only for exploit hunters and MMO fanatics that enjoy waiting for that next patch - the one that will "fix everything" - even when it never does. 

Fuck, thats still really long, sorry guys, tried to only include the important shit.







Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 10, 2008, 09:09:58 PM
WE COULDN'T CLICK THE LINK AND READ IT FOR OURSELVES THANKS FOR ABRIDGING IT IN AN UNBIASED AND USEFUL MANNER.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 10, 2008, 09:16:48 PM
You're welcome Lamaros, sometimes I can't click on links either, it makes me sad ):


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 10, 2008, 09:53:03 PM
I essentially agree with everything that review says, including the end score of 3/5 for the title as released.

But I disagree with his conclusion-- AoC is deeply flawed in many ways and was released tragically unpolished and unfinished, but it has the potential to grow into something great. I don't think they'll make a million subscribers by 2009, but they'll end up stabilizing around 800k.

Unless the 360 version actually exists, in which case it's anyone's call.

And do females really do a quarter less damage?!

Edit: Wow I guess they do. (http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=69451) And it's supposed to be fixed in the patch tomorrow. That's a pretty big bug.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 10, 2008, 10:14:17 PM
But I disagree with his conclusion-- AoC is deeply flawed in many ways and was released tragically unpolished and unfinished, but it has the potential to grow into something great. I don't think they'll make a million subscribers by 2009, but they'll end up stabilizing around 800k.

And do females really do a quarter less damage?!

Edit: Wow I guess they do. (http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=69451) And it's supposed to be fixed in the patch tomorrow. That's a pretty big bug.

Generous of you to call it a bug.

Why did AoC set it's sights so high? Surely they could have just released a game half the size with twice as much effort spent on it, does just as well with the marketing, recieved better world of mouth, more subs, and then just put in more stuff and polish in the first expansion.

I'm going with my eariler statement. AoC will be ruined by WAR and WotLK later this year.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lac on June 11, 2008, 12:48:43 AM
Quote
do females really do a quarter less damage?!
Edit: Wow I guess they do. And it's supposed to be fixed in the patch tomorrow. That's a pretty big bug.

That's a classic. Did they only find that out now? If they did, I guess it's because few people in beta roll a new character in the same class but of a different gender.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 11, 2008, 05:04:31 AM
I can't even imagine why this would be the case unless it was specifically added as a feature. Someone with some programming experience have any ideas?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 11, 2008, 05:06:48 AM

And do females really do a quarter less damage?!


Yeah but they have tits. Its an even trade-off IMO.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on June 11, 2008, 05:09:48 AM

But I disagree with his conclusion-- AoC is deeply flawed in many ways and was released tragically unpolished and unfinished, but it has the potential to grow into something great. I don't think they'll make a million subscribers by 2009, but they'll end up stabilizing around 800k.

I am not in the market for potential.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 11, 2008, 05:18:13 AM
Quote
Edit: Wow I guess they do. And it's supposed to be fixed in the patch tomorrow. That's a pretty big bug.
Wow. And this doesn't seem like a bug, but rather a design decision, based on the consistency of the numbers. Very VERY risky thing to do at all (sexism!11/1), but even more so to not tell the players.

Did they parse a DPS log? The damage numbers at the end looked very close, while the time it takes to make a swing seemed the big difference.

Did anyone do comparisons on magic attacks?

Did they try different races? (like Female Stygians vs Female Aquilonians)?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 11, 2008, 05:22:09 AM
I'm guessing it was an idea they were playing with considering the source material, coded it, then later decided it was a bad idea and neglected to remove it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 11, 2008, 05:40:16 AM
No the reason some classes do less damage as women is because they screwed up the timing of the animations so they swing slower.  It wasn't an intentional "make women do less damage", that's insane.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Bunk on June 11, 2008, 05:42:24 AM
Well, cool. Sounds like my Mangina Assassin is getting a 25% damage boost.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 11, 2008, 05:59:18 AM
Yeah, the female animations just happen to be longer, and since they are using an animation-driven combat system (unlike any other MMO I can think of, but like most action games), that makes the attack take longer.  It also feels to me that certain attack directions are slower than others due to longer animations as well, but I haven't actually researched that or anything.

Course one interesting thing about the animation-driven combat is... if you changed your animations locally, could you then attack faster?  How good is the server at checking to make sure you're obeying the length of the animation and not attacking faster than that?  Considering how rushed AoC was at the end of beta, I wouldn't be too surprised if the checking isn't so good.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 11, 2008, 06:27:30 AM
I also have a mangina. I like to think I have a pretty thick skin, but a 25% damage bug pisses me off. I mean, goddamn!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nija on June 11, 2008, 06:47:37 AM
I'll be amazed if people play beyond the first month.

AoC was very depressing for me to play. It was like, "take a walk down MMO lane and see every single mistake every single developer has made for the last 12 years!" digitized.

I read an article yesterday about how people who make less than $13,000 USD/year spend, on average, 9% of their wages on lottery tickets. The first thing I thought of was AoC. It's like poor people buying up lottery tickets just hoping for a win vs. MMO gamers buying every new game that comes out, hoping for a win.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Bunk on June 11, 2008, 10:00:38 AM
I veiwed it as, I'm still throwing money at WoW to just casually play every once in a while, why not throw that same money at a new game that at least the rest of the guild is still loggining in to. For now.

And I like boobies, and believe in supporting games that have boobies.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 10:19:51 AM
It seems so strongly venomous I'm trying to figure out who is sponsering him.

No one, he's just strongly opinionated (I remember him from the DAOC beta boards). He posts as Jarnis... thought he had an account here but I'm not finding it.

I've only been lurking here. However, I have trolled participated in MMO-related Broken Toys comment threads from time to time...

And sorry to disappoint - my only "sponsor" is Futuremark who pays my salary for writing stuff for the YouGamers site.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 11, 2008, 10:41:44 AM
I've only been lurking here. However, I have trolled participated in MMO-related Broken Toys comment threads from time to time...

One of the biggest complaints I see floating around, and one of your complaints, is a lack of endgame when compared to WoW.  IIRC WoW shipped with a (very broken) Molten Core and Onyxia as far as end game content goes.  The next raid instance was added about a year later (BWL), with raids being added around every 6 months to a year after that.

Stupid Question:  Do modern mmogs have to ship with end games that match or beat WoW's current end game to be successful?  The comparisons are never made to WoW at release, they are always made to modern WoW, going on 4 years after release.

If this is the case, will there ever be another successful mmog released?  If the comparison will always be made to modern WoW, I can't imagine that anyone will ever have the budget to compete with what WoW eventually became (instead of where it started).  I can't even imagine the next Blizzard product having the development dollars to release a game with end game content that has the depth of modern WoW.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: ajax34i on June 11, 2008, 10:49:54 AM
I'm waiting for them to fix whatever the glaring bugs that you guys are reporting are, plus add some end-game content, and THEN I'll play it.  I did the same with WoW actually, and EQ; didn't play either of those till a few months after release.  When the comments I see floating around switch from reporting the bugs to talking about strategies and builds, that will be my cue.

So, I'd say yes.  They CAN use whatever revenue they are getting from boxes and current subscriptions to immediately improve the game and add content, just like WoW has done.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 11, 2008, 10:51:13 AM
Quote
Do modern mmogs have to ship with end games that match or beat WoW's current end game to be successful?

I think the big focus on the endgame has to do with exactly how many people are reaching level 80 within the first month.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 11, 2008, 10:54:46 AM
One of the biggest complaints I see floating around, and one of your complaints, is a lack of endgame when compared to WoW.  IIRC WoW shipped with a (very broken) Molten Core and Onyxia as far as end game content goes.  The next raid instance was added about a year later (BWL), with raids being added around every 6 months to a year after that.

Stupid Question:  Do modern mmogs have to ship with end games that match or beat WoW's current end game to be successful?  The comparisons are never made to WoW at release, they are always made to modern WoW, going on 4 years after release.

If this is the case, will there ever be another successful mmog released?  If the comparison will always be made to modern WoW, I can't imagine that anyone will ever have the budget to compete with what WoW eventually became (instead of where it started).  I can't even imagine the next Blizzard product having the development dollars to release a game with end game content that has the depth of modern WoW.

Molten Core was patched in at a later date. Dire Maul wasn't even in release, it was also patched in. And no, it doesn't have to beat WoW's current end game, it has to have something new and some end game for the top levels. When content starts lacking at level 50 I dont want to reach top level. WoW gives you a reason to level fast to 70 cause there is tons of things to do. WAR has tons of endgame announced especially for PvP / RVR.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nija on June 11, 2008, 10:57:17 AM
Well, when WOW was released, it took me 19 days /played to reach 60. I know people can do that in less than a day with the tools available now, but at the time it was a great 19 days /played. The poopsockers were doing it in 14-15 days. It was a grand adventure. It all worked. You had various fun things to do along the way. Stuff like the auction house, in game mail, and instances worked and were itemized (if applicable) and functional. Complete.

Yes, future games should be as complete as WOW was on release. They shouldn't have the 'end game' as fleshed out as WOW currently is. (current being when you read this post 06-2008 or in the FUTURE)

I don't think anyone should release a game unless it's got a solid two weeks /played worth of functional, fun content. If you're shipping with less than that, you're up shit creek without a paddle.

With Conan, people were hitting max level in 2 days played. Poopsockers or not, that shouldn't be the case.

Also you shouldn't backload "the fun" for end-game experiences only, but that's another discussion. With Conan, specifically, they're front-loading the fun. You do your 20 levels of directed quest chains and voice overs then you're dumped into MMO purgatory. For the next 60 levels.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 11, 2008, 11:00:24 AM
Molten Core was patched in at a later date. Dire Maul wasn't even in release, it was also patched in. And no, it doesn't have to beat WoW's current end game, it has to have something new and some end game for the top levels. When content starts lacking at level 50 I dont want to reach top level. WoW gives you a reason to level fast to 70 cause there is tons of things to do. WAR has tons of endgame announced especially for PvP / RVR.

But there are three raid zones in AoC, correct?  So it does have SOME end game content at the moment (more than typical).

Of course I'm only level 35, so I really can't tell ya if it's GOOD end game content yet, but there is at least some end game content right now.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 11, 2008, 11:01:45 AM
Stupid Question:  Do modern mmogs have to ship with end games that match or beat WoW's current end game to be successful?  The comparisons are never made to WoW at release, they are always made to modern WoW, going on 4 years after release.
I'd say yes, given the game when released isn't competing with "WoW 4 years ago" but with the "WoW here and now". In similar manner when WoW was released it wasn't competing with "Everquest of old" but with EQ and other MMOs in their present shape, all bells and whistles added meantime etc.

edit: though to note, the 'match and beat' part doesn't have to mean equal amount of content and such. Making it fun enough so the people will want to stick around to play it and wait for more (rather than go back to WoW) should be good enough... of course 'making it fun enough' is the hard part.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 11, 2008, 11:05:38 AM
I'd say yes, given the game when released isn't competing with "WoW 4 years ago" but with the "WoW here and now". In similar manner when WoW was released it wasn't competing with "Everquest of old" but with EQ and other MMOs in their present shape, all bells and whistles added meantime etc.

This is what I suspect, personally, is the correct answer to my question.  The problem I see is that on the horizon, no game have the development budget to ship as complete as WoW is today.

I know, I know, Warhammer is going to PWN MY FUCKING FACE INTO THE GROUND HUZZAH.

*sniffle*, brings a tear to my eye to remember the good old days of trolling LtM listening to people tell me how DAoC was going to CRUSH  Everquest.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Kirth on June 11, 2008, 11:08:25 AM
Back in the day, scholomance and Black Rock Spire were 'raid content'.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 11, 2008, 11:14:49 AM
Molten Core was patched in at a later date.
No, molten core was there on day one.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 11, 2008, 11:16:34 AM
Back in the day, scholomance and Black Rock Spire were 'raid content'.

To be fair, it's possible that the same might be said of current "raid content" in AoC a few years down the line.

But yeah, I think I've said it before here, but if there's one thing AoC drove home in my brain (being the first post-WoW game where I actually feel content-limited rather than god-this-game-blows limited), it's that WoW shipped with a TON of content.  Goddamn.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 11, 2008, 11:16:52 AM
I disagree. AoC's budget was huge and should have been more than sufficient. So is WAR's. The problem comes in when these titles try to overreach themselves and add too much rather than polishing what's already built, then they run up against a hard release date, and boom, have to put it on shelves. WAR obviously has more freedom there.

AoC's deficiencies can almost all be traced to polish. The base game mechanics work and are fun. Their beta period was just too small by several orders of magnitude.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 11, 2008, 11:26:24 AM
I disagree. AoC's budget was huge and should have been more than sufficient. So is WAR's. The problem comes in when these titles try to overreach themselves and add too much rather than polishing what's already built, then they run up against a hard release date, and boom, have to put it on shelves. WAR obviously has more freedom there.

AoC's deficiencies can almost all be traced to polish. The base game mechanics work and are fun. Their beta period was just too small by several orders of magnitude.

It is my understanding (read:  I'm often wrong) neither of those titles has the budget that WoW had at release, and WoW was released 4 years ago.  If they have to compete with modern day WoW to be considered a success, well, we'll see how it turns out when WAR is released I guess. :)

I think you are drastically underestimating the funds required to compete, though, I must say yet again I'm often wrong.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: shiznitz on June 11, 2008, 11:49:16 AM
His four examples of graphics settings are crap. The third one - supposedly on low settings - still has player shadows enabled. That should be the first thing you turn off.  Same with detailed grass.  Who favors those two things over view distance?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 11, 2008, 12:03:33 PM
His four examples of graphics settings are crap. The third one - supposedly on low settings - still has player shadows enabled. That should be the first thing you turn off.  Same with detailed grass.  Who favors those two things over view distance?

i think the very fact you need to use arcane combinations of graphics settings to make the game playable speaks volumes in and of itself. The minute i need to read a post on these forums of how best to tweak a game to give me over 30fps on my rig which is pretty good by todays standards, then there's an issue with your game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 11, 2008, 12:05:02 PM
I don't believe the WAR budget is available anywhere, but AoC's budget was roughly half that of WoW, which is plenty. Remember WoW was in beta for like a year. The only real question is how much they paid for the license.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 12:06:58 PM
His four examples of graphics settings are crap. The third one - supposedly on low settings - still has player shadows enabled. That should be the first thing you turn off.  Same with detailed grass.  Who favors those two things over view distance?

Those are the default views you get when you hit "High", "Medium" or "Low" in the game. Last one is Medium with Pixel Shaders turned to 2.0 (for those with systems that just can't run the game at SM3.0).

I actually wrote a small tech article earlier that spelled out the fact that the shadows are the biggest drain on performance in the game. But I didn't decide those default settings - I just show what they look like for reference. I guess I could've panned the game for non-practical default graphical settings as well...  :-)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 12:09:50 PM
I've only been lurking here. However, I have trolled participated in MMO-related Broken Toys comment threads from time to time...

One of the biggest complaints I see floating around, and one of your complaints, is a lack of endgame when compared to WoW.  IIRC WoW shipped with a (very broken) Molten Core and Onyxia as far as end game content goes.  The next raid instance was added about a year later (BWL), with raids being added around every 6 months to a year after that.

Stupid Question:  Do modern mmogs have to ship with end games that match or beat WoW's current end game to be successful?  The comparisons are never made to WoW at release, they are always made to modern WoW, going on 4 years after release.

If this is the case, will there ever be another successful mmog released?  If the comparison will always be made to modern WoW, I can't imagine that anyone will ever have the budget to compete with what WoW eventually became (instead of where it started).  I can't even imagine the next Blizzard product having the development dollars to release a game with end game content that has the depth of modern WoW.

No, but the progression to maximum level should not be broken, and there should be *something* to do when the exp bar stops moving. Any raid content included at the launch is a definite bonus, but I'd take less stuff that actually works over more stuff that isn't finished.

While WoW raids were somewhat unfinished at launch, there was a good working "endgame progress" game involving smaller dungeons and gathering of "blue" gear upgrades from those places. You could play at level 60 for weeks without the urge to hit the cancel button. WoW didn't have enough content (it still doesn't, in a way), but what was there generally worked fine. Servers were a whole another matter, but that was mostly due to the overwhelming popularity.

AoC endgame is just one flaw that will be fixed for sure - in fact, I hear there are already four horribly bugged raid instances in the game. But before that, it has a broken level 40-80 (roughly) game, and has smaller issues before level 40 as well. Only Tortage is actually polished to any standard.

Also, the itemization is a joke and most of the items do not actually improve the combat abilities of your character - in a MMO! I'm actually interested to watch how they plan on fixing that without having to go and re-balance every single PvE bit of the game... so far all they did was change the tooltips. It used to say that STR would add to your melee attack rating, but anyone could see it didn't. Now it just claims that STR adds to your damage... same goes for DEX, WIS and INT, and their related combat attributes.

My main beef with AoC is the unfinished state of post-level 20 game at launch, poor design choices related to instancing and zoning, and non-existing economic system with faucets and no long-term sinks. Rest is fixable. Note that I gave it a score that tried to discount my personal "grrr, Hulk hates unfinished crap, turns green" bias, while writing the text with a very clearly disclosed bias against unfinished/unpolished products (see page 1).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 12:16:34 PM
See, your whole schtick just falls on its face when you start bitching about the instancing.  First you say it feels like a single player game because you never see anyone, and then you bitch that people camp bosses.

Well, which is it? If you're going to bitch about somthing that is a non-issue for the vast majority of people, at least be fucking consistant.
(Edit: I've only run into the boss-camping cockblock a couple times up to 53, the most notable being the cistern/main system, which is a spawn rate issue more than an instancing one)

Zoning issues? Is this more "Theres an invisible wall!" bitching?  Sorry that they didn't feel that every single area should either be so massive it takes EVEN LONGER to get around, which you bitch about, or that they wanted some open areas instead of having everything surrounded by impassable mountains.


You made some good points, the 40+ game really is shitty, but at least half of your "review" is just angsty shit that you had to dig deep to find, because noone fucking cares about it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 12:27:46 PM
See, your whole schtick just falls on its face when you start bitching about the instancing.  First you say it feels like a single player game because you never see anyone, and then you bitch that people camp bosses.

Well, which is it? If you're going to bitch about somthing that is a non-issue for the vast majority of people, at least be fucking consistant.

Both. They use instancing *wrong*. They instance everything - even bits that really shouldn't be instanced, and then do it poorly with the "public dungeon instances" concept - leading to boss camping. In some cases it's quest-related boss camping, where you want the boss for a quest while couple of chinese goldfarmers wait to gank it for the resale value of the loot. I thought EQ1 already demonstrated why MMO players need private instanced areas with the bosses & phat loot...

Quote
Zoning issues? Is this more "Theres an invisible wall!" bitching?  Sorry that they didn't feel that every single area should either be so massive it takes EVEN LONGER to get around, which you bitch about, or that they wanted some open areas instead of having everything surrounded by impassable mountains.

Impassable mountains are ten times better than a flimsy five feet high wooden stockade. Or an invisible wall (yes, there are areas in the zones that actually just end in an invisible wall). You can do zone borders and non-continuous area poorly or well. DAOC actually did it fairly well - it had zoning to capital cities and (later) to frontiers and player housing areas - each time those zone borders looked beliveable and you could suspend your disbelief for that one teeny moment and ignore the loading screen, and believe that you just stepped ahead for a few feet and the world now continues. AoC just has a big world map with curvy roads between dots, and those dots are the zones we see - you can't step on any of the areas outside those designated zones, and in many places the access is prevented with very crude barriers. It doesn't feel like a world - it feels like a collection of sandboxes, with teleports between them. Heck, in some cases you travel one way with a "caravan", but the return trip is actually supposed to be a boat.

Quote
You made some good points, the 40+ game really is shitty, but at least half of your "review" is just angsty shit that you had to dig deep to find, because noone fucking cares about it.

Sorry. That's probably just the Finnish way of describing things... we don't get much sunlight in the winters, and tend to be bitter and stuff...  :roll:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 12:31:33 PM
Both. They use instancing *wrong*. They instance everything - even bits that really shouldn't be instanced, and then do it poorly with the "public dungeon instances" concept - leading to boss camping. In some cases it's quest-related boss camping, where you want the boss for a quest while couple of chinese goldfarmers wait to gank it for the resale value of the loot. I thought EQ1 already demonstrated why MMO players need private instanced areas with the bosses & phat loot...

Didn't you write that bosses weren't itemized and it was pointless to kill them?
And if you want private instances, why are you complaining that it feels like a single player ga..aww, you know what, fuck it.

You're a fucking hack and can't even make up your mind as to why you don't like this game, you're arguing opposing points and blaming funcom for both.
Im done.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 11, 2008, 12:39:12 PM
Both. They use instancing *wrong*. They instance everything - even bits that really shouldn't be instanced, and then do it poorly with the "public dungeon instances" concept - leading to boss camping. In some cases it's quest-related boss camping, where you want the boss for a quest while couple of chinese goldfarmers wait to gank it for the resale value of the loot. I thought EQ1 already demonstrated why MMO players need private instanced areas with the bosses & phat loot...

Didn't you write that bosses weren't itemized and it was pointless to kill them?
And if you want private instances, why are you complaining that it feels like a single player ga..aww, you know what, fuck it.

You're a fucking hack and can't even make up your mind as to why you don't like this game, you're arguing opposing points and blaming funcom for both.
Im done.

What he wrote makes perfect sense to me. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 12:52:30 PM
Both. They use instancing *wrong*. They instance everything - even bits that really shouldn't be instanced, and then do it poorly with the "public dungeon instances" concept - leading to boss camping. In some cases it's quest-related boss camping, where you want the boss for a quest while couple of chinese goldfarmers wait to gank it for the resale value of the loot. I thought EQ1 already demonstrated why MMO players need private instanced areas with the bosses & phat loot...

Didn't you write that bosses weren't itemized and it was pointless to kill them?
And if you want private instances, why are you complaining that it feels like a single player ga..aww, you know what, fuck it.

You're a fucking hack and can't even make up your mind as to why you don't like this game, you're arguing opposing points and blaming funcom for both.
Im done.

I don't want to run in an outside zone with 9 copies of that zone existing in parallel - that breaks immersion. It doesn't feel like a "real" world, makes it harder to actually form groups, and there are plenty of MMOs that do fine without it. Dungeons with slowly respawning bosses are another matter, and it's been generally found to be a bad idea to keep these areas shared between players/groups of players - it leads to camping.

I wouldn't mind a non-instanced dungeon as well, but that would require it to be massive when compared to what most MMOs consider to be a "dungeon" these days - and even then, if you can set up camp on a spot where a big fat loot pinata spawns every 30 minutes, people will. Many games have solved it with private instanced dungeons with no boss respawns - you have to do the whole thing to get to the loot pinatas again. Yes, those bits are not "massively multiplayer", but on the flipside we have EQ1-style camping - sometimes with *calendars* when each group/guild can kill each loot pinata in turn. In this case I take the lesser evil, thank you.

Some bosses (well, many of them) are not itemized. Some are. Guess which ones people are camping?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: shiznitz on June 11, 2008, 12:59:19 PM
His four examples of graphics settings are crap. The third one - supposedly on low settings - still has player shadows enabled. That should be the first thing you turn off.  Same with detailed grass.  Who favors those two things over view distance?

Those are the default views you get when you hit "High", "Medium" or "Low" in the game. Last one is Medium with Pixel Shaders turned to 2.0 (for those with systems that just can't run the game at SM3.0).

I actually wrote a small tech article earlier that spelled out the fact that the shadows are the biggest drain on performance in the game. But I didn't decide those default settings - I just show what they look like for reference. I guess I could've panned the game for non-practical default graphical settings as well...  :-)

Ah. Then it does makes sense to use them. Funcom's problem, not yours.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 11, 2008, 01:04:11 PM

Sorry. That's probably just the Finnish way of describing things... we don't get much sunlight in the winters, and tend to be bitter and stuff...  :roll:

Yes you are, I saw that episode of 60 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c) and believe it without question.  You also tango a lot.  I bet you hate those Norwegians over at Funcom due to some war you had way back when.

Edit: waltz->tango


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 01:17:00 PM

Sorry. That's probably just the Finnish way of describing things... we don't get much sunlight in the winters, and tend to be bitter and stuff...  :roll:

Yes you are, I saw that episode of 60 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c) and believe it without question.  You also tango a lot.  I bet you hate those Norwegians over at Funcom due to some war you had way back when.

Edit: waltz->tango

I hope you don't believe everything you see on YouTube (or, on 60 minutes for that matter).

On the other hand, the scary truth is that the 60 minutes episode in question is not that far off from reality... those early clips from Helsinki are quite realistic - if someone would mix in with a big happy smile, everyone else would think that he's either drunk, mentally unstable or a tourist  :roll:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 11, 2008, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: cevik
Stupid Question:  Do modern mmogs have to ship with end games that match or beat WoW's current end game to be successful?  

This:
I think the big focus on the endgame has to do with exactly how many people are reaching level 80 within the first month.

If the leveling speed was anywhere near what even WoW's was, we'd only now be hearing big complaints about the lack of endgame. But they didn't do the not-secret launch day nerf that a few other MMOs have. Smart of them not to piss off their core, but risky because there's not only no real endgame per se, there's not much else to do at all except build your cities. Crafting's pretty broken at the moment apparently, and the woefully imbalanced classes make PvP a bit of a crap shoot unless you're really dedicated to the core concept zone control for the good resources (which apparently does work after a fashion).

Instancing on the other hand makes some sense in the context of the game. Being PvP centric after a fashion, you're supposed to want to fight other players to get to the good stuff in ways you couldn't in EQ1. But AoC's specific implementation is sorta half pregnant. They use instancing ala CoX public spaces to account for population problems, but then have PvE servers where the primary motivation of players is leveling up and good gear to get to the endgame that maybe someday will be about PvP and raiding as a choice (ala WoW).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on June 11, 2008, 01:22:05 PM
Seriously Nerf, the combined "overinstancing/underinstancing" argument makes a lot of sense. It's a bit of confusing from the lack of proper terminology perhaps, but the gist is that Conan uses the wrong KIND of instancing in many, many cases.

Public dungeons are errorneously used for instances with few quest mob spawns and long spawn times. This means that -despite- you're in an instance, you're still short on mobs. And bosses. And anything that's public. These should have been private, larger, or have faster spawns. As it is, many of them give no benefit but instead compartmentalisation of the player base. You're still waiting a lot for shit to respawn. Yes, it would be worse if everyone was in the same instance, but maybe then it would be larger aswell. As for the itemisation in private instances, I can't say, but I'm still to receive anything worthwhile.

Even less diplomatic: I agree fully on the whole backdrop/tease-crap Conan is doing. "Look lad, such a pretty view! Whattaya mean, go there? Sorry son, can't allow that. Go talk to Max and he'll cart you somewhere else entirely." 10 feet fences belong in Counter-strike. Like Jaris is saying, a 100 feet drop or a 100 feet cliff wall is way better because it doesn't -promise- anything. Here we're promised candy but instead get a broken nose against the store window. It doesn't bother you? Great. It bothers quite a few other people. Vistas are one of the primary goddamn reasons these games are called MASSIVE, not solely because there are massive amounts of people somewhere you can't find.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: AcidCat on June 11, 2008, 01:36:49 PM
Even less diplomatic: I agree fully on the whole backdrop/tease-crap Conan is doing. "Look lad, such a pretty view! Whattaya mean, go there? Sorry son, can't allow that. Go talk to Max and he'll cart you somewhere else entirely." 10 feet fences belong in Counter-strike. Like Jaris is saying, a 100 feet drop or a 100 feet cliff wall is way better because it doesn't -promise- anything. Here we're promised candy but instead get a broken nose against the store window. It doesn't bother you? Great. It bothers quite a few other people. Vistas are one of the primary goddamn reasons these games are called MASSIVE, not solely because there are massive amounts of people somewhere you can't find.

The more I play the more it bugs me, being something of an explorer. In WoW you could travel from one end of a continent to the other in a way that felt logical and gave a great sense of a world you were actually travelling through - sure you couldn't go everywhere, but the places you couldn't go made sense - mainly steep moutain ranges. It's a similar feeling in Conan to CoX in that you are just playing in connected boxes. Some areas of Conan hide it better than others - and certainly it is a thing you can forget as you are enjoying chopping some poor mob's arms and then head off, but it's one of those background things that is disappointing.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 11, 2008, 01:37:38 PM
Seriously Nerf, the combined "overinstancing/underinstancing" argument makes a lot of sense. It's a bit of confusing from the lack of proper terminology perhaps, but the gist is that Conan uses the wrong KIND of instancing in many, many cases.

Public dungeons are errorneously used for instances with few quest mob spawns and long spawn times. This means that -despite- you're in an instance, you're still short on mobs. And bosses. And anything that's public. These should have been private, larger, or have faster spawns. As it is, many of them give no benefit but instead compartmentalisation of the player base. You're still waiting a lot for shit to respawn. Yes, it would be worse if everyone was in the same instance, but maybe then it would be larger aswell. As for the itemisation in private instances, I can't say, but I'm still to receive anything worthwhile.

Even less diplomatic: I agree fully on the whole backdrop/tease-crap Conan is doing. "Look lad, such a pretty view! Whattaya mean, go there? Sorry son, can't allow that. Go talk to Max and he'll cart you somewhere else entirely." 10 feet fences belong in Counter-strike. Like Jaris is saying, a 100 feet drop or a 100 feet cliff wall is way better because it doesn't -promise- anything. Here we're promised candy but instead get a broken nose against the store window. It doesn't bother you? Great. It bothers quite a few other people. Vistas are one of the primary goddamn reasons these games are called MASSIVE, not solely because there are massive amounts of people somewhere you can't find.

I've said these same arguments pages ago(or maybe another thread) and got yelled at, i think probably by nerf(wtf?)  and they are spot on. AoC got instancing wrong and they got massive wrong. I had fun, it was worth the price of the box but i doubt i'll be playing past the free month as there simply isn't enough variety for me and not enough fun to counteract the glaring bugs that would eat up hours of my nights until i realized something about my quest or class was broken.

To me, this game is no different from wow in an appreciable way. Sure you can say it has a 'fun' factor but what is that? it just means you like the style of things here or maybe aoc is just something newer to your pallatte but even though it may be a new york strip instead of a ribeye you're still eating cow. You level, you quest, you do dungeons with your tanks and healers and you get loot, then you level up and do it all over again. at high levels you can even *gasp* do it with dozens of other players! how is this new? the combat? take away auto attack in wow and you have the same system, just a bunch of special attacks and combos just with more button mashing.

pvp? seriously? turning a server into pvp+ does nothing that other games haven't done, aoc still has wow style battlegrounds and instead of horde/alliance its every man/guild for themselves. sorry no difference there, whether you are more fun in aoc than wow or eq or eve is not the point. lots of people enjoyed n-sync too, it doesn't make them not just another boy band.

what really grinds my gears is not that aoc is just another diku clone with tits and gore, it's that it did not learn from past diku models. it tried too hard to say "no really, we're different" that i think they believed they're own hype and didn't you know, try and copy the good parts that other games have proven players want.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 01:45:04 PM
Diku IS quests and ding gratz, if you don't like diku then why did you even start?

I agree that it would be nice if you could walk from one area to another, but after a month of that they would put in the caravaners and boats and we would all be praising them because walking sucked hairy balls.

Whatever though, apparently alot of you just don't like the game, that's fine, there is plenty of shit wrong to bitch about without having to cry about the way they implemented zone lines.  Every MMO I've ever played had hard zone lines that sometimes didn't make sense, crying about it being a fence instead of everywhere you go being surrounded by a massive mountain range, or on a plateu is just reaching.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 11, 2008, 02:00:18 PM
Diku IS quests and ding gratz, if you don't like diku then why did you even start?

I agree that it would be nice if you could walk from one area to another, but after a month of that they would put in the caravaners and boats and we would all be praising them because walking sucked hairy balls.

Whatever though, apparently alot of you just don't like the game, that's fine, there is plenty of shit wrong to bitch about without having to cry about the way they implemented zone lines.  Every MMO I've ever played had hard zone lines that sometimes didn't make sense, crying about it being a fence instead of everywhere you go being surrounded by a massive mountain range, or on a plateu is just reaching.

Reading comprehension is hard, apparently. Yes it's diku, what I'm saying is that they were trying to pretend they weren't and thereby failed at doing it right. Travelling? EQ2 had gryphons, wow had flightmasters and aoc could have done something just like that with caravans. In other games you don't have to walk from the northern tip of the continent to the southern if you don't want to but that option was there.

I'm sorry but the moment you start saying a large portion of people talking reasonably and in well thought out posts(one of them writing a goddamn 8 page reveiw which was also fair) and saying these people are 'crying' and 'whining' then maybe you need to take a step back yourself. These are real issues that may not bother you but yes, do bother a large number of the population, as I said before you and others like this game, great. Also a large number of people will continue to play this game just as a large number of people still play eq1 but that doesn't mean that game should be put on a pedestal. 

AoC has flaws, a great deal of them. Wow has flaws, EQ2 has flaws....every game ever conceived has flaws and this discussion is not about that. It's about the severity of those flaws and the impact it will have on the customer base. I personally think the flaws in aoc are glaring past a certain level, even those who like the game immensely know they are there, in addition to all those intangible 'zone line' things that bother people and they aren't sure why. AoC will do ok, it will make money and it will be running still a couple years down the line but it will be forgetteble and it will never live up to the potential of what could have been a great game, it will always be mediocre.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 11, 2008, 03:29:00 PM
I've never seen anyone quit a game because of zone lines. I think this is sort of Nerf's point, which I agree with. There's a lot of worthy stuff to complain about in AoC. How zones are maps is sort of a B-level issues. How instancing is handled, that's A-list. Travel too.

This isn't to say the complaints aren't worth it.I just feel like how the zone lines wouldn't matter a whit if that was the only thing wrong with the game.

Having said that, I do wonder about the travel. It's a pain, but that seems intended. Gryphons and ringways and PoP books are great and all, but they really make the world smaller. There was a time when people would complain how the little immersion there was with these easymode ways of traveling. AoC lacking them highlights the other side of that complaint. Be careful what you wish for...  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 03:31:31 PM
Even with the walking, leveling in AoC is still faster than uhhmmmm, anything else.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on June 11, 2008, 03:33:11 PM
Diku IS quests and ding gratz, if you don't like diku then why did you even start?

I agree that it would be nice if you could walk from one area to another, but after a month of that they would put in the caravaners and boats and we would all be praising them because walking sucked hairy balls.

Whatever though, apparently alot of you just don't like the game, that's fine, there is plenty of shit wrong to bitch about without having to cry about the way they implemented zone lines.  Every MMO I've ever played had hard zone lines that sometimes didn't make sense, crying about it being a fence instead of everywhere you go being surrounded by a massive mountain range, or on a plateu is just reaching.

What can I say, immersion is a big fucken thing. Put bluntly, immersion is one of the top reasons -anyone- plays these games. Someone who isn't feeling immersed in the game will stop playing, because they might aswell be playing Pong or Tetris or any other strictly mechanical, non-thematic game. We appriciate slightly different things -as- immersion, but it's none the less about mentioned experience. In terms of gameplay value, MMOs are cadavres. RPGs in the 80's had more interaction and RP'y "cleverness" than your average MMORPG. This has been said before, yet it's still as true for Conan. They've added some layers of complexity without adding actual value - like the dialogue system. I'll buy you all lunch if the fancy combo system is anything but tried'n'tested button mashing in a year's time.

Really, what I'm asking for isn't a brand new game. I'm not looking to find some whole new depth in a diku, that'd be in vain, I'm looking for a game that does your vanillia diku well enough and then adds or differs in 10% of the core gameplay. The 10% that makes the whole play differently and makes it feel fresh despite being a rough rehash of games we've already played. That's really all it takes to sate my hunger for dikus. I like dikus, I've been playing some form of them since my early teens. HeroQuest, Adv. HeroQuest, Warhammer Quest and now Descent with online forays in MMOs.

Before I unleash the last paragraph I'm going to say this: I'm not saying that any of you are doing it wrong. You like it, that's great and I mean it. My intention is not to effectively rain on anyone's parade. What you do with your free time is quite frankly none of my business.

But, a rant -

I recall another diku that launched about fourteen months ago. It was nothing special, just your average diku, decent polish and a smooth launch. It had functioning loot, crafting (while a bit incomplete), even endgame instances with bosses that required some diku'esque strategy and even a working damn raid. Point being, a functioning western diku was released that while it may not have been to the tastes of everyone, it worked and it worked, relatively speaking, well. That game received a total panning by many people around here, despite its many actual qualities. (Hey, a working MMO, whattaya know?) Yet some people are sitting here hyping a total fucking wreck of a game to the skies based on pure potential and a new flavour of mindless button mashing. I'm not arguing whether you're having fun. I'm arguing whether the game is as awesome as you're telling yourselves it is.






Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Rasix on June 11, 2008, 03:34:45 PM
Having said that, I do wonder about the travel. It's a pain, but that seems intended. Gryphons and ringways and PoP books are great and all, but they really make the world smaller.

Drowning yourself in a small pool of water, hopping off a cliff, or running to a huge pack of mobs in order to transport to a different rez pad doesn't make the world any bigger.  Plus, it's just silly.

Sometimes you don't even really save any time by doing it.  I just don't like having to run everywhere manually all of the time. 

Quote
I recall another diku that launched about fourteen months ago. It was nothing special, just your average diku, decent polish and a smooth launch. It had functioning loot, crafting (while a bit incomplete), even endgame instances with bosses that required some diku'esque strategy and even a working damn raid. Point being, a functioning western diku was released that while it may not have been to the tastes of everyone, it worked and it worked, relatively speaking, well. That game received a total panning by many people around here, despite its many actual qualities. (Hey, a working MMO, whattaya know?) Yet some people are sitting here hyping a total fucking wreck of a game to the skies based on pure potential and a new flavour of mindless button mashing. I'm not arguing whether you're having fun. I'm arguing whether the game is as awesome as you're telling yourselves it is.

LOTRO was really boring at a base level.  People don't get excited or really even enjoy, "nothing special".


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 11, 2008, 03:36:05 PM
Even with the walking, leveling in AoC is still faster than uhhmmmm, anything else.

It is, it's superfast. Thats why endgame content is extremely crucial compared to what it was in WoW / other MMOs on release where leveling for a casual guy can take 2-4 months. At least 20-30 days played. However I honestly don't know the amount of endgame content in AoC, but I am highly surprised at the lack of content in the mid-level range, so it gives me little will to level up completely. Standing around in a town and crafting stuff ain't my idea of fun. I just wanna behead suckers and kill epic bosses.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 11, 2008, 03:37:28 PM
Having said that, I do wonder about the travel. It's a pain, but that seems intended. Gryphons and ringways and PoP books are great and all, but they really make the world smaller.

Drowning yourself in a small pool of water, hopping off a cliff, or running to a huge pack of mobs in order to transport to a different rez pad doesn't make the world any bigger.  Plus, it's just silly.

Sometimes you don't even really save any time by doing it.  I just don't like having to run everywhere manually all of the time. 

I die all the time just to travel. I have received so many /lol whispers due to leaping of random cliffs and places. On a sidenote, I will put this in the Tip of the Day thread : If you die to travel fast, you get the Death Penalty. That one is removed once you deliver a quest  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Rasix on June 11, 2008, 03:42:16 PM
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6590/yhoundehpicture001pk0.jpg)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 11, 2008, 04:18:40 PM
I die all the time just to travel. I have received so many /lol whispers due to leaping of random cliffs and places. On a sidenote, I will put this in the Tip of the Day thread : If you die to travel fast, you get the Death Penalty. That one is removed once you deliver a quest  :oh_i_see:

Yeah, I did a pretty big eye-roll once I discovered this.  It's like it's INTENDED that you to die in order to go turn in your quests.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 11, 2008, 04:19:33 PM
Yep. But damn does the game look good while you're doing it.

I recall another diku that launched about fourteen months ago. It was nothing special, just your average diku, decent polish and a smooth launch. It had functioning loot, crafting (while a bit incomplete), even endgame instances with bosses that required some diku'esque strategy and even a working damn raid. Point being, a functioning western diku was released that while it may not have been to the tastes of everyone, it worked and it worked, relatively speaking, well. That game received a total panning by many people around here, despite its many actual qualities. (Hey, a working MMO, whattaya know?) Yet some people are sitting here hyping a total fucking wreck of a game to the skies based on pure potential and a new flavour of mindless button mashing. I'm not arguing whether you're having fun. I'm arguing whether the game is as awesome as you're telling yourselves it is.

I said this somewhere else but can't remember and am too lazy to find it. But basically, AoC is broken in the sort of ways that make for interesting discussion. We feel like we're "part" of something, a game that's broken, but still playable and in which we feel like we can achieve something. It's the SWG vibe. Secondarily, it's broken in ways we can exploit so that when things are fixed, we'll be ahead of the curve. Because we figured it out and exploited it.

LoTRO's basic problem was that it was entirely contrived. There's nothing particularly special about it. It's just a well-executed game, which isn't good enough to spawn fervent fanboism and mocking bystanders you get as a sort of free PR for a new game. It's just not interesting enough to talk about. This means less meta, less "other game" from Tazel's thread. But I suspect they're more a victim of timing than anything else, because:

WoW was also contrived, linear, and very well executed, but came with something of a built-in audience (Game IP > regular IP by default), after years of trainwrecks and ho-hums, and from a company almost everyone either really likes or at least respects.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 11, 2008, 04:28:28 PM
Half of you are saying it needs to be smaller with more polish, the other half saying it needs more content. Those are mutually exclusive.

Edit: LOTRO is just a worse WOW. The only reason to play it is if you like the lore. It has no other selling point. It got exactly the amount of interest it deserved.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 11, 2008, 04:47:41 PM
I think I'm saying both, actually.

AoC has way too many classes. Each class has too many disparate abilities, the abilities are too spread out, and they're not explained anywhere. Every class should have a purpose and offer unique gameplay mechanics as well as dependencies with other classes while still being capable of soloing. It also has too many meaningless bear uterus collection quests. This is 2008; I don't want to collect uteruses. I've had plenty, really, I'm full, couldn't take one more. Each and every quest should have at least one unique scripted element that makes the player go "hey, that was neat". Killing 50 picts and poop-scooping their livers doesn't do it for me.

As for too little content, well there we come into the brick wall at 40. It's a major problem, but they're promised to address it later on this month. Tortage is another spot where they fell down, but it's easily fixed by an auto-level to 20 with green items checkbox.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 11, 2008, 04:59:55 PM
Half of you are saying it needs to be smaller with more polish, the other half saying it needs more content. Those are mutually exclusive.

I don't think anyone actually thinks it needs to be smaller.  Certainly people think it needs more polish, and also people think it needs more content.  Those aren't really mutually exclusive, it's just not easy to say how they could have done that, since it probably comes down to management/development processes and budget and such.  It's certainly not an impossible thing to accomplish, though it may have been impossible for them.

Re: People quitting over zone lines and such, it's probably true that few people quit in disgust over such things, but I wouldn't be surprised if people just fail to be engaged in the game because of it, even if they don't consciously recognize the zoning as the cause (or one of a set of causes).  It's not always as simple as there being just one big thing that caused you to quit a game.  And indeed, for many people it's not a matter of something driving them to quit at all, but rather a collection of awesome things that, against all odds, cause them to subscribe.  And the way they handled zoning could be the lack of that one extra awesome thing that caused people to decide to buy/subscribe.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 05:03:35 PM
I have to ask sam, but have you been reading all the quest dialogue?

While there are alot of quests that involve killing people and taking shit, the explanations behind them are pretty damn good in many cases, and alot of the quests have had me rolling. (taking the shirts from bums in tortage was great)

Darniaq hit my point right on the head, I've never heard anyone list unrealistic fences as zone lines as a game-breaking issue.

The instancing is done poorly in some places, public dungeons suck, and long respawns in any public instance are a horrible idea.

My problem lies with comments like "It feels like a single player game because of the awful instancing", followed directly by "fucking goldfarmers camp everything and it's ruining my game!"

Which makes even less sense once you actually go kill a few of these bosses that drop blues, and realize they're almost all bind on pickup.

--Complain about broken instances (pyramid, anyone?), complain about half of the feats not working, and all of the descriptions being fucked, complain that crafting is completely broken, guild cities are pointless and serve no purpose, complain that there is absolutely -zero- balance, but for fucks sake, don't just make shit up.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 05:30:38 PM
We've discovered that Jarnis isn't getting paid for his views, but have we worked out who the hell at AoC is giving Nerf money? Please stop. Fix the game instead, don't pay some fuckwit to yell shit at people who disagree with him on a forum.

Half of you are saying it needs to be smaller with more polish, the other half saying it needs more content. Those are mutually exclusive.

Not necessarily. Cut the world in half, delay some systems for a expansion pack, slow down the leveling rate. Take the time you have from not putting every single idea you have into the game into polishing the content you have earlier on. Polish up everything!

If you have 10 shitty things that are no fun and bugged to heck people will say "shitty content, we need more good stuff!" while if you have 5 things that are great and work well people will play the heck out of them and love it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 11, 2008, 05:59:31 PM
99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over madeup statistics  :grin:

There are too many classes. This has plagued other games and will again. When even companies with bottomless pits of cash don't tackle more than 10 classes, you really need to step back and wonder why the hell not. Unless you've got a team of insane statisticians creating Mother's Perfect Blend of interacting skills, and then just picking pieces of it out for individual templates, don't bother (well, and because you should just dive into a skills-based game anyway :wink:)

More classes just means you'll eventually be focusing on fewer of the most active ones, which became active because the players sought the ones that actually work.

Quote from: lamaros
If you have 10 shitty things that are no fun and bugged to heck people will say "shitty content, we need more good stuff!" while if you have 5 things that are great and work well people will play the heck out of them and love it.
AoC at least prioritized the right way, and looks to have sold enough boxes to at least pay the up front investment. If they lose players now, they nix some jobs, and everything that needs to get done to fix the game takes longer to get done. But they're still alive.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: lamaros
If you have 10 shitty things that are no fun and bugged to heck people will say "shitty content, we need more good stuff!" while if you have 5 things that are great and work well people will play the heck out of them and love it.
AoC at least prioritized the right way, and looks to have sold enough boxes to at least pay the up front investment. If they lose players now, they nix some jobs, and everything that needs to get done to fix the game takes longer to get done. But they're still alive.

Honestly, not really. When it comes to 'making the game better' it's not a choice between that and marketing. They could have done fewer classes, fewer poorly implemented features, more content, slower leveling, etc and STILL have done just as well in sales and such. And they would have had better word of mouth, more people likely to stick with the game, less people shitty about bugs.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 11, 2008, 06:09:02 PM
Here's my thoughts. Travel is long because they need to slow you down--WOW does this too. The world is actually very small in number of camps and zones, which is why you have to go to the same places again and again but to kill different foozles each time again to slow you down. The result of that is that you kill all the foozles, not just the ones you need to kill, which is why it needs to be instanced to hell and beyond. (One or two instances of a zone is one thing 4-10 is something quite different.)

The last thing the world needs is to be smaller.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 11, 2008, 06:09:41 PM
it has a broken level 40-80 (roughly) game

This is getting annoying. As it's not true.
The only part it's actually really lacking content is the 45 - 60. After Noble District and before Atzel's and Thunder River. Field of the Dead could be a good place to level up to 50 but somehow it feels not dense enough, and the dungeon, which is super cool, is too small. Eiglophian Mountains need serious enriching and what the game basically lacks in that level range is an alternative zone to go XPing. Something that happens at 60, when you can choose between two cool places (TR and AA).

The thing is, for some reason which could be the extreme difficulty of "elite" mobs, dungeons aren't appealing here as they were in other games, so in said level range you are supposed to wet your feet with Sanctum - Cistern - Main System. But that seldom happens because you've been spoiled by the solo friendliness of the first 40 levels and have turned in a whiny sucker who couldn't tie his/her laces unless they were easily soloable. "Whaaaaa do I really have to group and go complete those 15 quests who would give me a fuckton of XP and equip in a nasty hard dungeon?! but I don't want to....! This is SO broken!"

I admit (again) that the overland zones supposed to host people for those 15-20 levels could get some more content, but there's nothing LESS TRUE than saying there's no content after level 40. It's not true, not true not true and again not true. So stop it ok?

Plus, whatever the flaws were in your 40 - 50, they get redeemed when you get to 60, and nothing is wrong from that point on (save for itemization, but that's another story, broken since level 1). This game has lots of quests, at every level, beautifully crafted zones, a handful of dungeons, a couple raid zones (which are unused anyway because there are not enough level 80) but the legend of the lacking content lives on. People complain because they have to grind a little here and there, and even if it's fast and possibly less dull than any other MMO before it's still OMG! Grind! Doně't want any of it!
Please, tell me a MMORPG where you are not supposed to ever grind. You know what? LotRO is possibly the only one, and that wasn't such a succesful formula after all.

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here: what IS content in the first place?

Too many complain about the lack of content at higher levels because "a friend" told them so or because "it is written everywhere". I ask you all to honestly reach the content-lacking part of the game, spend some time looking around the zones you are in and what they are offering, maybe compare that with what other games offer when your characters are mid-high level and THEN come back with evidences.

Bottom line: there's a huge difference between "it's not WoW" and "there's no content after level 40".



P.S: Suomi (Finland) is like that. You can talk shit about it, but have you been there? I did, and despite what Jarnis could say, it's a wonderful Country with a shitload of content. I love it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 06:23:31 PM
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/5141/unbenannt2xx0.jpg)

I think that really says everything.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 11, 2008, 06:34:30 PM
This is getting annoying. As it's not true.

That may well be true (and is certainly a good point to make), but in answer to your question of why the hell people are saying such a thing, I can personally answer that once I saw the pyramid dungeon it killed my faith in the content from that point onward and, having heard some rumblings of having nothing to do post-40 (and having already spent a couple levels doing grey quests), I just decided not to play any further for a couple months (instead I have run several alts through tortage).  It may be incorrect that the content is unfinished from that point on, but that impression was given SOMEHOW, and whatever caused that impression is a problem.

They really, really should not have left that pyramid dungeon in the game at launch.  I got an absolutely awful impression from that place.  Oh yeah, and that treasury of the ancients place where I climbed a wall and fell through the world and died.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 11, 2008, 06:40:13 PM
I'm level 57 and i've had a full quest log the entire time, thats after completely skipping cistern/main system since they are public dungeons which would have been a couple extra levels and skipping toirdebachs tomb because i just haven found a group.  There is no lack of content, people just dont know where the fuck they are supposed to go.  Theres no "brick wall" at 40 50 60 or any other level, theres just some traveling and looking around involved.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 06:57:41 PM
I don't think anyone disputes that AoC has better graphics schild. Posting biased images isn't honest, nor relevant.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 06:59:08 PM
I don't think anyone disputes that AoC has better graphics schild. Posting biased images isn't honest, nor relevant.

Biased? Top level ranger gear vs top level hunter gear is biased? I didn't even add my opinion. I merely said that it says it all. The two games are night and day apart and that picture says it. I just didn't want to make a new thread to dump it into.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 07:06:24 PM
I don't think anyone disputes that AoC has better graphics schild. Posting biased images isn't honest, nor relevant.

Biased? Top level ranger gear vs top level hunter gear is biased? I didn't even add my opinion. I merely said that it says it all. The two games are night and day apart and that picture says it. I just didn't want to make a new thread to dump it into.

(http://upload.wowhead.com/images/screenshots/82416.jpg)

That's Hunter T6. A pretty average image of it as well.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 07:08:59 PM
Ok, that picture works also. What's your point?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 07:10:22 PM
Ok, that picture works also. What's your point?

Graphics have nothing to do with people's issues with AoC, nor with WoW's success.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 07:27:31 PM
It's not just the graphics. I know half of your posts are just you getting off being an asshole, but I'll entertain your narrow-view for just a second.

That graphical comparison says every difference between the two games. The serious bits, the approach to fantasy and design, everything. It isn't just OOOOOOH LOOKIT THE SHADOWS HUR HUR.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 11, 2008, 07:55:39 PM
AoC at least prioritized the right way, and looks to have sold enough boxes to at least pay the up front investment. If they lose players now, they nix some jobs, and everything that needs to get done to fix the game takes longer to get done. But they're still alive.

Honestly, not really. When it comes to 'making the game better' it's not a choice between that and marketing. They could have done fewer classes, fewer poorly implemented features, more content, slower leveling, etc and STILL have done just as well in sales and such. And they would have had better word of mouth, more people likely to stick with the game, less people shitty about bugs.
[/quote]
Erm, really. You don't get a million box sales in this genre with this type of game with these types of system requirements by just relying on the quality of your product. Otherwise, Sins of the Solar Empire would be breaking millions more still. You need that marketing. And it's not just Funcom marketing. You get retailer support and their marketing (good placement, circulars, web presence, etc) if you can convince them you're doing a big marketing push. Retailers want foot traffic, and will back whoever's coming with the most dollars.

You don't want to market a bad game of course. But you can't not market a good game either, and expect it to sell by the truckload. And Funcom shareholders are probably like shareholders the world over: "what are you doing to sell the game". "Making it good" is not the only answer you can give back :-) And Funcom was not going to get another year of production either, from these same people.

Everything else you said is also true of course. Good marketing + good game = $$$. But don't be fooled by the virtriol of the oboards and veteran sites either. The game's got issues a good chunk of players won't encounter or won't care about if they do.

On the graphics thing: it's a style call. You either like the WoW style or you don't. Same with AoC. The number of polygons and amount of maps are there to further whichever still you want.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 08:00:45 PM
It's not just the graphics. I know half of your posts are just you getting off being an asshole, but I'll entertain your narrow-view for just a second.

That graphical comparison says every difference between the two games. The serious bits, the approach to fantasy and design, everything. It isn't just OOOOOOH LOOKIT THE SHADOWS HUR HUR.

It is just the graphics. I know half your posts are you just gushing about shit because you are wildly optimistic about whatever you're doing right now, but I'll entertain your view for a second.

That graphical comparison is between a carefully chosen well rendered AoC character and a carefully chosen, poorly rendered, WoW character.

It says a bit about art design, a bit about system requirements, a bit about age of the game, a bit about game setting (what type of Fantasy), a bit about how seriously the game takes itself.

It says nothing about gameplay (quality, mechanics, etc) insofar as it is unrelated to these things.

It has basically nothing to do with anything in this thread and is just you hanging shit on a game you dislike while pumping up a game you like.

@Darniaq:

All I was saying is they could have a better game without impacting on the marketing. :)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 08:04:48 PM
I'm level 57 and i've had a full quest log the entire time, thats after completely skipping cistern/main system since they are public dungeons which would have been a couple extra levels and skipping toirdebachs tomb because i just haven found a group.  There is no lack of content, people just dont know where the fuck they are supposed to go.  Theres no "brick wall" at 40 50 60 or any other level, theres just some traveling and looking around involved.

Where did you go from 53+?  I did every quest I could find in...everywhere, and ran out at 53 except for cistern/main system/tomb.

Also, from our esteemed reviewer-
Quote
Character art, animation and spell effects are even more detailed than the scenery, and while there is some visible "skating" and "rubberbanding" when other players move around you, animation and movement is far more realistic than in Lord of the Rings Online. It can't quite touch World of Warcraft, but what it loses in animation quality and smoothness, it takes back in the amount of detail and texture quality.

Lulz.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 08:10:34 PM
Yeah you mentioned that earlier Nerf. Maybe you should just copy every posts you've made in this thread twice. Just to make sure.

You seem to have missed the bit where he says "animation quality and smoothness". You do know what smooth means? And animation means? I can have a stick figure that animates more smoothly and realistically than something with 100 billion polygons. Then, and this is the funny bit because they're the very next words in the sentence, he says "amount of detail and texture quality" is better! Omg!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 08:18:21 PM
No, he doesn't say that it's better, he says that what it lacks in quality and smoothness, it makes up for in detail, right after he says that it can't touch WoW.

The base statement is still that it can't touch WoW.  Hence, lulz.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 11, 2008, 08:18:48 PM
I'll go back to my original statement. Some people are just haters.

Go play Wow, it's got everything you seem to need. I'll be here having fun, thanks.


Also, the same people complaining about a little grinding are probably exalted in 10 different factions in Wow just so they could get some purple ring or crafting recipe. I'll trade AoC's broke crafting and many other bugs/missing features to never have to grind rep again. Then again, I'm not looking for problems cause I'm too busy bitchsmacking fools outside Tesso/Sanctum. Another thing I love about this game, a level 40 HoX and a lvl 42 ToS can kill a 56 Bear Shaman and his apprenticed friend. Try THAT in WoW.

Oh wait, I'm sure my friend and I were just button mashing that whole time. AoC button mashing is the win kind of button mashing. When I think back to playing my priest in Wow in PVP compared to my ToS in Conan......wow, I'm never going back to that bullshit.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 11, 2008, 08:22:33 PM
The animation in WOW is shit. Comapre WOW to any real 3d game where you view your character from 3rd person -- it sucks ass.  Even among MMORPGs certainly FFXI, Anarchy Online and even EQ2 have better animation.

Maybe Conan is even worse -- if so that's quite an accomplishment.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 11, 2008, 08:23:17 PM
I'm level 57 and i've had a full quest log the entire time, thats after completely skipping cistern/main system since they are public dungeons which would have been a couple extra levels and skipping toirdebachs tomb because i just haven found a group.  There is no lack of content, people just dont know where the fuck they are supposed to go.  Theres no "brick wall" at 40 50 60 or any other level, theres just some traveling and looking around involved.

Where did you go from 53+?  I did every quest I could find in...everywhere, and ran out at 53 except for cistern/main system/tomb.

Also, from our esteemed reviewer-
Quote
Character art, animation and spell effects are even more detailed than the scenery, and while there is some visible "skating" and "rubberbanding" when other players move around you, animation and movement is far more realistic than in Lord of the Rings Online. It can't quite touch World of Warcraft, but what it loses in animation quality and smoothness, it takes back in the amount of detail and texture quality.

Lulz.

Egliopian or somesuch mountains, the zone after field of the dead.  Now that ive done every quest there im getting quests that send me to thunder river which i guess is the next questing spot.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 11, 2008, 08:26:14 PM
Hmm, I'm 53 and have done every quest in there and no more !s, how odd.

Either way though, apparently Falconeer is correct, and we've all been mis stating, there is not a lack of 40+ content, theres just a lack of 50-60 quests.

Anyone who quit at 40 due to "lack of content" was looking for an excuse.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 11, 2008, 09:02:24 PM
Then again, I'm not looking for problems cause I'm too busy bitchsmacking fools outside Tesso/Sanctum. Another thing I love about this game, a level 40 HoX and a lvl 42 ToS can kill a 56 Bear Shaman and his apprenticed friend. Try THAT in WoW.




I love balanced pvp.

And did you just seriously call people 'haters'? what are you, 15? Jesus christ some of you people need to grow up, especially you schild, you should know better. Saying you like a game is not the same thing as dissing someone's mother.

it's....not...personal....

I'll amend this by saying for some, it is but it shouldn't be. It's ok not to like wow, it's ok not to like age of conan. We get it, you prefer one game over the other but for fucks sake why can't some of you take yourselves out of your goddamned childish love affairs and see games for not only their flaws but their attributes?  One of the best things about sites like this is rational discussion about game design and not "blargle blargle my game's digi-cock is bigger" (digi-cock is now copyrighted, no stealing)

I want a good clean fight here people, if you're going to whip it out you do it regulation style....with top hats...and monocles.

Things like "don't be haters, yo" or "lawl you must suck if you think the game is bad post 40" or "see? wow sucks so aoc is good" have a place, on official forums...where every stupid post is just like that. Take more than five seconds when you write your post instead of posting an argument, try to hold a discussion...it won't kill you and i promise im not going to violate your mothers.








again. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 11, 2008, 09:11:52 PM
Then again, I'm not looking for problems cause I'm too busy bitchsmacking fools outside Tesso/Sanctum. Another thing I love about this game, a level 40 HoX and a lvl 42 ToS can kill a 56 Bear Shaman and his apprenticed friend. Try THAT in WoW.




Words


Hater.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 11, 2008, 09:24:22 PM
Then again, I'm not looking for problems cause I'm too busy bitchsmacking fools outside Tesso/Sanctum. Another thing I love about this game, a level 40 HoX and a lvl 42 ToS can kill a 56 Bear Shaman and his apprenticed friend. Try THAT in WoW.




I love balanced pvp.

And did you just seriously call people 'haters'? what are you, 15? Jesus christ some of you people need to grow up, especially you schild, you should know better. Saying you like a game is not the same thing as dissing someone's mother.

it's....not...personal....

I'll amend this by saying for some, it is but it shouldn't be. It's ok not to like wow, it's ok not to like age of conan. We get it, you prefer one game over the other but for fucks sake why can't some of you take yourselves out of your goddamned childish love affairs and see games for not only their flaws but their attributes?  One of the best things about sites like this is rational discussion about game design and not "blargle blargle my game's digi-cock is bigger" (digi-cock is now copyrighted, no stealing)

I want a good clean fight here people, if you're going to whip it out you do it regulation style....with top hats...and monocles.

Things like "don't be haters, yo" or "lawl you must suck if you think the game is bad post 40" or "see? wow sucks so aoc is good" have a place, on official forums...where every stupid post is just like that. Take more than five seconds when you write your post instead of posting an argument, try to hold a discussion...it won't kill you and i promise im not going to violate your mothers.








again. :awesome_for_real:

On a serious note, you are the standard poster on any forum that never listens or addresses other people's discussion points...cause well, yours are superior. We get it, you are right. Leave us to our horrible game. Don't taze me, bro!

What did you mean by I love balanced PVP? Are you saying that the fact that two forties killed a 56 and a lower level friend unbalanced? Cause I say its about fuckin time. I am quite tired of levels creating such a massive discrepancy. I don't know, half the time on this board I hear people talking shit about PVP that don't partake in it anyways...so it's par for the course really.

I don't dislike WoW, I played probably like 80 days (thats 80 days played in game). I believe now that if I tried playing WoW I would be even more underwhelmed after AoC's combat. And fuck rep grinds. And fuck their loot centric, guild fucking endgame. That's all. I'm just hatin'.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: squirrel on June 11, 2008, 09:24:47 PM
I'll go back to my original statement. Some people are just haters.

Go play Wow, it's got everything you seem to need. I'll be here having fun, thanks.


This pretty much ends the argument. Or discussion.

I'm not sure why this thread has degenerated into a hillibilly discussion of whose mama sucks dick best, nor do I care. Does AoC have huge issues? Most certainly yes. Does WoW own the market - durr. Why are these even reasonable talking points here? The fact is that even with all its warts AoC has a fun game - it's better visually realized than some of its competitors, it has a content team willing to take chances that the 'mainstream' game won't do, and it had some interesting player mechanics. Plus it has Hyboria and Conan - a strong IP.

So yeah - seriously stfu if you hate the game. Good for you. I hated DDO and LoTRO. Good for me. Go look for my posts on threads for those games. You won't find any. You know why? CAUSE I DON'T BOTHER BITCHING ABOUT A GAME I WON'T PLAY.

Fuck. Like WoW? Cool. Go play it. I like it too. But I'm bored now and AoC and  :nda: fit the bill nicely. So play what you like.

EDIT: To add: So play what you like - AND STFU ABOUT WHY WHAT WE LIKE IS BAD. YES YOU. STFU.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 11, 2008, 09:46:23 PM
Also with regards to animation, WOW is at an advantage in that the animations don't actually mean dick, they aren't tied to what's happening in any real way. Which means they could look as awesome as they wanted.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 09:59:59 PM
I think there are two? people in this thread who hate AoC (I'm not one of them). There sure are a heck of a lot of people who seems to hate anyone who doesn't love AoC though. Boggles the mind, I'd have thought they'd be playing the awesomeness that is AoC instead of bitching about people here.

Quote
Does AoC have huge issues? Most certainly yes. Does WoW own the market - durr. Why are these even reasonable talking points here?

1) Because it's a thread about AoC?
2) I dunno. Because someone compared AoC to WoW in part of his review? Because schild hates WoW?

BTW, I'm hardly a WoW fan. (I have played it less than you Slayerik). I'm just trying to inject some reasonable discussion into a topic that is overcome with "this is 100% awesome and I won't hear a bad word about it". Criticism does not preclude celebration, and it offers a much better position for people who haven't played the game to get an expectation.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 11, 2008, 10:02:04 PM
I'm actually playing aoc as i type this. there's no doubt it has a fun side to it.

also to clarify 'because' i play aoc i know 14-16 levels IS a huge difference so while you may think it was your leet pvp skillz that won against a 56 and an effective level 55, i have to say it probably speaks more of class imbalance but that's a point that can't be proven.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 10:06:25 PM
I think there are two? people in this thread who hate AoC (I'm not one of them). There sure are a heck of a lot of people who seems to hate anyone who doesn't love AoC though. Boggles the mind, I'd have thought they'd be playing the awesomeness that is AoC instead of bitching about people here.

Quote
Does AoC have huge issues? Most certainly yes. Does WoW own the market - durr. Why are these even reasonable talking points here?

1) Because it's a thread about AoC?
2) I dunno. Because someone compared AoC to WoW in part of his review? Because schild hates WoW?

BTW, I'm hardly a WoW fan. (I have played it less than you Slayerik). I'm just trying to inject some reasonable discussion into a topic that is overcome with "this is 100% awesome and I won't hear a bad word about it". Criticism does not preclude celebration, and it offers a much better position for people who haven't played the game to get an expectation.

If you didn't notice, I posted 5 pages of fixes the game needs earlier today. In patch form. And none of it was a joke. I mean, some were literally jokes, but they're all valid fixes to address various concerns I or others have with the game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: squirrel on June 11, 2008, 10:09:20 PM
I think there are two? people in this thread who hate AoC (I'm not one of them). There sure are a heck of a lot of people who seems to hate anyone who doesn't love AoC though. Boggles the mind, I'd have thought they'd be playing the awesomeness that is AoC instead of bitching about people here.

Quote
Does AoC have huge issues? Most certainly yes. Does WoW own the market - durr. Why are these even reasonable talking points here?

1) Because it's a thread about AoC?
2) I dunno. Because someone compared AoC to WoW in part of his review? Because schild hates WoW?

BTW, I'm hardly a WoW fan. (I have played it less than you Slayerik). I'm just trying to inject some reasonable discussion into a topic that is overcome with "this is 100% awesome and I won't hear a bad word about it". Criticism does not preclude celebration, and it offers a much better position for people who haven't played the game to get an expectation.



Firstly - quote your sources right, I'm not Slayerik, I don't even know who he is.

Secondly - to address your assertion that this is the drive of reasonable discourse - have you bothered to visit the board dedicated to AoC here on this very forum? Because if you have - which I would expect of someone as diligent as you in your quest for fairness - you would easily see that there are many complaints about the game in its current state.

So what is your point exactly? We're far from AoC fanboys - here's a hint - go look at the threads under the Age of Conan sub-board here. You speak of celebration - only a fucking idiot does so without educating himself on his audience. Go, padawan, and look. And then defend that position. It's futile. Trust me.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 11, 2008, 10:13:56 PM
If you didn't notice, I posted 5 pages of fixes the game needs earlier today. In patch form. And none of it was a joke. I mean, some were literally jokes, but they're all valid fixes to address various concerns I or others have with the game.

Yeah I know. Your enthusiasm isn't stupid when you're playing things. But some other people get a bit more "fuckoff if you don't agree with me" than you do, and much less constructive in regard to problems.

You do have issues with WoW though.  :-)

Secondly - to address your assertion that this is the assertion of reasonable discourse - have you bothered to visit the board dedicated to AoC here on this very forum? Because if you have - which I would expect of someone as diligent as you in your quest for fairness - you would easily see that there are many complaints about the game in its current state.

So what is your point exactly? We're far from AoC fanboys - here's a hint - go look at the threads under the Age of Conan sub-board here. You speak of celebration - only a fucking idiot does so without educating himself on his audience. Go, padawan, and look. And then defend that position. It's futile. Trust me.

Yeah I've read most of them. Do you see me posting in those AoC threads? No because there's no one being a dick (read: Nerf and some others) about AoC's problems in those threads. Yet this thread is full of shit having a go at anyone who doesn't like it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 10:14:10 PM
I have to ask sam, but have you been reading all the quest dialogue?

While there are alot of quests that involve killing people and taking shit, the explanations behind them are pretty damn good in many cases, and alot of the quests have had me rolling. (taking the shirts from bums in tortage was great)

Seconded. Even my review commends them for that - especially as the quest goals are usually not that innovative (kill this, fetch that, fed ex this), the storylines are actually well-written and funny. I was laughing out loud when I found the "goldseller" in Tarantia Noble District...

Quote
Darniaq hit my point right on the head, I've never heard anyone list unrealistic fences as zone lines as a game-breaking issue.

It kills immersion, and it's effectively unfixable. That's why it's such a big deal. I guess I'm sucker for immersion...

Quote
My problem lies with comments like "It feels like a single player game because of the awful instancing", followed directly by "fucking goldfarmers camp everything and it's ruining my game!"

Which makes even less sense once you actually go kill a few of these bosses that drop blues, and realize they're almost all bind on pickup.

Sorry, my review was already 8 pages long, so I tried not to spend pages to explain simple points. My point was that due to the fact that players are split to numerous instanced copies of every zone, you can end up running around alone a lot. It doesn't feel "massive" when a fairly large outdoor zone seems deserted. Yet at the same time the instancing was done wrong with the dungeons and it allows you to wade through couple of dozens of trash mobs only to find out that every boss spawn is camped by someone. This was found to be a problem like ten years ago, and almost every game has "fixed" it, one way or another. AoC went back to 1990s.

And those blues sell for like 5-7 silver a pop to vendors. It's the resale value to *vendors* that entices people to camp them at the moment.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 10:19:40 PM
I'm level 57 and i've had a full quest log the entire time, thats after completely skipping cistern/main system since they are public dungeons which would have been a couple extra levels and skipping toirdebachs tomb because i just haven found a group.  There is no lack of content, people just dont know where the fuck they are supposed to go.  Theres no "brick wall" at 40 50 60 or any other level, theres just some traveling and looking around involved.

Well, maybe *that* is a problem then?

The game tries hard to block you from actually exploring with five feet tall fences, then expects you to, well, explore a lot. If lot of players get a feeling after 40 that there isn't anything to do, maybe that's poor world design?

WoW actually did one thing right - whenever the game expects you to go to a new quest hub or find a new area, you usually get a quest to go there - or completing a quest will unavoidably show you some new shiny bit in the world and the curious cat in you demands you to go see what's there.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 10:21:47 PM
I'm sorry, but any game where you walk up mountains, kill hundreds of crocodiles and other various animals, commit suicide to travel, slaughter thousands, and do god knows what else is already completely unimmersive within the confines of your current argument. An invisible wall should be the least of your complains.

The instancing is slightly problematic and it's also easily fixed. It's the sort of thing that is, in fact, so easily fixed that I didn't even bother to put much anything about it in the patch notes. There may have been a passing mention to it.

Quote
The game tries hard to block you from actually exploring with five feet tall fences, then expects you to, well, explore a lot. If lot of players get a feeling after 40 that there isn't anything to do, maybe that's poor world design?

I've found a way to jump over 90% of those fences. And having proper collision and being able to jump over them is another form of fun. As for your next quest comment, I'll just defer you to the previous bit - there are better things to complain about in the core game than fences higher than your knees and some poor-but-fixable quest concerns.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: squirrel on June 11, 2008, 10:31:48 PM
Jarnis - Most people here I think would agree with most parts of your review, I know most of us have read it. It was a well written and researched piece. Your take on the game identifies the problems well, but you fail to identify the fun. Which is ok. Fun is hard to quantify. Which is why noone here is saying you must agree with us. You're right, there's huge problems, but the game is fun.

To others in this thread - wtf? It's not like this is a fanboy haven. AoC is a good game, when it's good. When it's not, it needs work. Yelling that so and so  "HATES WOW" is really neither accurate nor helpful in making better games. 

It's about fun games for US.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Jarnis on June 11, 2008, 10:50:48 PM
I've found a way to jump over 90% of those fences. And having proper collision and being able to jump over them is another form of fun.

You *can*?

Damn you, now I have to fire up the game and see for myself. The explorer in me is interested... even if most likely I'll just fall through the world or get banned for being in an area you are not supposed to be in...  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: squirrel on June 11, 2008, 10:53:30 PM
I've found a way to jump over 90% of those fences. And having proper collision and being able to jump over them is another form of fun.

You *can*?


Yeah you can. It's not just fences - or at least in my experience it's not...


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 11, 2008, 10:56:16 PM
I can think of about 4 different invisible walls I haven't actually been able to get past.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 11, 2008, 11:18:52 PM
I'm level 57 and i've had a full quest log the entire time, thats after completely skipping cistern/main system since they are public dungeons which would have been a couple extra levels and skipping toirdebachs tomb because i just haven found a group.  There is no lack of content, people just dont know where the fuck they are supposed to go.  Theres no "brick wall" at 40 50 60 or any other level, theres just some traveling and looking around involved.

Well, maybe *that* is a problem then?

The game tries hard to block you from actually exploring with five feet tall fences, then expects you to, well, explore a lot. If lot of players get a feeling after 40 that there isn't anything to do, maybe that's poor world design?

No damn no.
As I said, the problem with Age of Conan content is that it spoils you into playing it as a solo game. Maybe you grouped for a while before 40, maybe you helped a friend. But it's only when you hit 45 that you realize sometimes you *have* to get into a few group only dungeons.
By that point many (not everyone, for fuck's sake) are unprepared, tired, spoiled enough to think that such content (dungeons) isn't really content, those quest aren't really queste HENCE the game is broken and the content missing. Woohoo.

Think about World of Warcraft and take out all the dungeons, cause clearly you can't do them alone. You are level 30 - 40. How much content prevents you from grinding?

Quote
If lot of players get a feeling after 40 that there isn't anything to do, maybe that's poor world design?

Sorry, I never believed the hype. Sheeps can't prove points. So maybe... but not this time.


Quote
WoW actually did one thing right - whenever the game expects you to go to a new quest hub or find a new area, you usually get a quest to go there - or completing a quest will unavoidably show you some new shiny bit in the world and the curious cat in you demands you to go see what's there.

I see. Large sign "Monsters this way --->", or content doesn't exist.
Spoiled spoiled spoiled. Because maybe engraved with a less fancy font bust such signs are in Age of Conan too, you can even see them as "exes" on the map/GPS thingie. So wtf?
Spoiled, you all.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Phred on June 12, 2008, 01:05:31 AM
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/5141/unbenannt2xx0.jpg)

I think that really says everything.

All it says to me is that one will run smoothly on a 5 year old computer and the other will need a 5 month old one.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 12, 2008, 01:18:11 AM
On the missing content clownesque topic, from todays' patch notes:

Quote

Mid Level (40) gameplay improvements

    * Field of the Dead: 100 additional mobs have found their way into the the playfield. In addition respawn times have been adjusted on both normal mobs and bosses to improve the playing experience. Also, a number of quests in the playfield have been improved upon.
    * Treasury of the Ancient Ones: This Dark dungeon in Khopshef plays like a new dungeon now! It has been revamped with a new event for both solo and group players. Special rewards await those who dare to take the challenge in Epic Mode. And you will no longer fall through the world when climbing up the statues.


This is not to prove my point, which had its own legs. This is just a PLUS.

The point everyone is failing to see is the game lacks PVP content, not PVE. Right now there's NONE of the former and plenty of the latter.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 12, 2008, 01:54:04 AM
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/5141/unbenannt2xx0.jpg)

I think that really says everything.
All it says to me is that one will run smoothly on a 5 year old computer and the other will need a 5 month old one.

And I'll take the latter. Crom take WoW and its cartoony lowest-common-denominator approach to everything.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 12, 2008, 02:23:50 AM
Funnily enough...

(http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module2/79541/rangers_qjpreviewth.jpg)(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3020/newbitmapimagely7.jpg)

neither game requires 5 month old computer, too. But middle ground is boring  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 12, 2008, 02:58:48 AM
Hmm, I'm 53 and have done every quest in there and no more !s, how odd.

Either way though, apparently Falconeer is correct, and we've all been mis stating, there is not a lack of 40+ content, theres just a lack of 50-60 quests.

Anyone who quit at 40 due to "lack of content" was looking for an excuse.

The last quest there gave me a level 60 weapon as a reward, if you finished by 53 you probably skipped a zone at some point or missed some quests there. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: caladein on June 12, 2008, 05:18:45 AM
Yelling that so and so  "HATES WOW" is really neither accurate nor helpful in making better games. 

It's not, but seeing as how "Hater" is thrown around with some liberty by the pro-AoC crowd at any non-believer, I don't see what your point is.

The amount of strawmen going up in this thread is quickly going from :uhrr: to :awesome_for_real: though, so keep it up everyone!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 12, 2008, 05:40:26 AM
I think when you have a new game, you rarely have people weighing its positives and negatives and making a choice between it and other games. Instead, it either is worth playing therefore you go with it or it sucks rocks and not worth playing. Honestly, with most games I think the idea of the shiny pretty much continues until you reach a point where something irks you enough that you just can't look at the damned thing, at which point you move from being a lover to a jilted lover aka a hater. For me that was hitting the first quest that required a group which made me face some of the real flaws in the game as well as the idea of playing with Barrens chat rejects that make up the AOC player community.

The real question is what happens past that when it's no longer new and shiny, when most of the egregious everyone saw it coming problems of launch are fixed and you are looking at being bored and thinking--"do I reup WoW, COX, EQ2, AOC, or Eve?"


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 12, 2008, 06:15:40 AM
There is an odd amount of vitriol in this thread.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 12, 2008, 06:28:32 AM
For me that was hitting the first quest that required a group which made me face some of the real flaws in the game as well as the idea of playing with Barrens chat rejects that make up the AOC player community.

Wait, so we've moved beyond "Zomg AoC is broken" to "Zomg, some people who play mmogs suck, so AoC sucks!1!"?

Interesting.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 12, 2008, 06:43:42 AM
Well, to be fair she didn't say "it sucks, I quit!". But to a certain extent, she said "it requires to group every now and then? I quit!".
And that could be AoC's own fault. When they let you play totally solo for 40 levels, you get used to it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 12, 2008, 06:54:18 AM
Yes, I read and enjoy the quest text. Lore doesn't excuse shitty gameplay. It didn't in LOTRO and it doesn't here. Bear uterus collection quests are unacceptable.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 12, 2008, 07:30:53 AM
Quote
Well, to be fair she didn't say "it sucks, I quit!". But to a certain extent, she said "it requires to group every now and then? I quit!".
And that could be AoC's own fault. When they let you play totally solo for 40 levels, you get used to it.

Actually my point was more of a meta-issue about lovers and haters in MMOs and that something pushes you over the edge and suddenly you need to face how screwed up game X is, which is what creates a "hater." I think it's normal to have that kind of division. It's just human nature. For me, it wasn't that I needed a group, I actually prefer to group. (The best part about being a raider in EQ2 is logging in and the sound of that group invite from my guild before my UI even loads.) What happened was needing a group suddenly hit me with half a dozen different major problems and no longer allowed me to ignore them, which pushed me over some emotional line where I just couldn't pretend the game wasn't as screwed up as it is.

Or very specifically, I needed to switch instances to get that group which made me examine in ways meaningful to me that there were many different instances, not just two; that there was an undocumented change in the patch that required getting to a rezpad to change instances; that I needed to change instances myself because of an unfixed bug that didn't allow group leaders to summon you to their instance; that the fastest way to that rezpad was to swim up a waterfall; and finally that given the asshat comments in the chat which you need to watch because the LFG system is either incomprehensible or doesn't really work; that on the whole, the people I was seeing in game were not people I really wanted to group with--more like the kind of people I wanted to involuntarily sterilize.

It wasn't one issue, it was one issue which triggered an examination of maybe a dozen different small dissatisfactions that I had mostly paved over in my mind.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 12, 2008, 07:35:46 AM
I've had a lot of fun in WoW but AoC is currently much more entertaining.  There is no reason to devote yourself to one MMO and rabidly attack any other.  When lich king comes out I will definitely go back and have fun for those ten levels, then I'll quit again because the WoW endgame is the worst kind of grind I have ever experienced.  All you do is run the same dungeons or battlegrounds again over and over until you can purchase an item that is 5% better than your current one, then you do it again and again forever.  I don't mind timesinks buy by God theirs are just so mind numbing.

I went back into WoW for the first time in a few weeks to clear out any mail before my sub expires and after playing so much AoC the graphical difference really hit me.  It looked like a child's game, something you would buy a ten year old niece or nephew you don't know very well for their birthday.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 12, 2008, 07:42:19 AM
Or very specifically, I needed to switch instances to get that group which made me examine in ways meaningful to me that there were many different instances, not just two; that there was an undocumented change in the patch that required getting to a rezpad to change instances; that I needed to change instances myself because of an unfixed bug that didn't allow group leaders to summon you to their instance; that the fastest way to that rezpad was to swim up a waterfall; and finally that given the asshat comments in the chat which you need to watch because the LFG system is either incomprehensible or doesn't really work; that on the whole, the people I was seeing in game were not people I really wanted to group with--more like the kind of people I wanted to involuntarily sterilize.

To be fair, the rezpad change was in the patch notes.

Beyond that, perhaps it's a "too each his own" type issue, but to me the multi-instance thing is one of the best things to happen in a mmog.  I can escape retards if I want to, if something is "camped" or someone is using a resource that I need (i.e. The Demon in the Tree) I can just pop into a new instance.  If the mob I need is gone, again I can pop into a new instance and look (instead of just standing where it spawns and waiting).  There are a lot more benefits than drawbacks from my perspective, I've yet to run into an "empty" instance, they all have various people running around in them, but I've also yet to run into an "overcrowded" instance, which is something that often happens in other games.  Of course I'm not an "immersion" guy, I find it kind of odd that people have no problems suspending their disbelief when I summon a horde of undead minions to follow me and do my bidding, but the moment a new instance of the map appears it's over.  ;) 

As far as retards in online video games, welcome to the internet, the next stop on our tour will be Hamster Dance, don't worry we'll eventually catch you up to 2008, though it may take awhile.  I bet you'll really like All Your Base Are Belong to Us part of the tour!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 12, 2008, 07:56:15 AM
Quote
To be fair, the rezpad change was in the patch notes.

Just went back and checked, nope, it's in the player thread on undocumented changes and a couple of player threads complaining about it, but not the official notes.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 12, 2008, 08:29:15 AM
Quote from: Jarnis
It kills immersion
I've long since gotten accustomed to assuming people mean to add "to them" at the end of everything they post on the web. Because otherwise I'd have to keep complaining about these sort of unilateral pseudo-representative assertions. :-) Anyone who's played EQ1 or DAoC is not overly aggravated by the zoning, unless it's considered in the context of other stuff they don't like.

However, I do agree with the assertion many of us have that in general, instancing is done wrong.

Quote
If lot of players get a feeling after 40 that there isn't anything to do, maybe that's poor world design?
It's important to separate "game design" from "world design" in a sub-topic including immersion. Good world design is a fundamental part of what WoW because they designed their worlds around the game being played. Whereas something like UO or SWG were designed specifically to engender "world" first, contrived content and advanced gates second. UO was due to legacy worlds from prior Ultimas. SWG was largely IP based. But both to me were FAR more immersive as worlds than WoW ever will be, because it's too conveniently designed to maximize the fun. And that's fine because it makes the game more fun for more people.

AoC even with WoW's graphics engine would piss off a lot of people for not being so silver-spoon-y with the content. But it is there for people who may be seeking something a bit different, something so less cleanly delivered. Now, whether that was Funcom's intent or they just didn't have the talent to do it like Blizzard is another topic :-)

AoC is not nearly as contrived as CoX. And it's not nearly as open as UO. But like a bunch of other things, it's at least trying something that a just-copy-WoW wouldn't.

Quote from: Numtini
Instead, it either is worth playing therefore you go with it or it sucks rocks and not worth playing
This. And this is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that AoC launched at the exact right time, between way-too-slow Blizzard and WAR.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 12, 2008, 09:20:26 AM
Quote from: Jarnis
It kills immersion
I've long since gotten accustomed to assuming people mean to add "to them" at the end of everything they post on the web. Because otherwise I'd have to keep complaining about these sort of unilateral pseudo-representative assertions. :-) Anyone who's played EQ1 or DAoC is not overly aggravated by the zoning, unless it's considered in the context of other stuff they don't like.

However, I do agree with the assertion many of us have that in general, instancing is done wrong.

Quote
AoC even with WoW's graphics engine would piss off a lot of people for not being so silver-spoon-y with the content. But it is there for people who may be seeking something a bit different, something so less cleanly delivered. Now, whether that was Funcom's intent or they just didn't have the talent to do it like Blizzard is another topic :-)



Quote from: Numtini
Instead, it either is worth playing therefore you go with it or it sucks rocks and not worth playing
This. And this is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that AoC launched at the exact right time, between way-too-slow Blizzard and WAR.

What does this even mean, silver spoony with content? Every single quest in aoc puts an X or a dot on a map literally telling you the exact spot where you will find your goal and nearly drags you by the arm to get there. I'm not sure there is any game made that can be more silver-spoony(we need a better term) than aoc. Don't say you can turn the x's off to make things more fun, i can also play one handed to make them more fun but that's not really the design of the game.

Aoc is certainly, 100% easier than wow though I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing and while the zones are more photo-realistic they are just as built around the game as wow is. Every spot in aoc is meant for something, a spawn or an item. Doing every quest gaurantees that you will see all of a given zone(im assuming this continues past 50) every valley was built with these quests in mind and it shows and you know what this isn't bad at all.

The x's though, good god that was dumb of them. The problem isn't the x's themselves but the metric-fuckton of useless quests "go kill 15 soldiers" now "go kill 15 of the same type of soldiers in another spot" then "grab 15 of these" "touch Y number of barrels at location Z" I'm not sure there are more than a handful of quests in the entire game that aren't repetitive bullshit.  the quest text does not make them better quests it just adds flavor and even then a lot of the quests don't have that great writing, they got lazy on a lot of them.

Someone should make a chart but i will say the questing to level ratio in aoc is probably higher than any other game and this isn't a good thing. I would rather have a well scripted or just well written destiny quest that by taking all day to complete gives me a level than 10 meaningless kill quests to do the same thing. 

AoC is fast paced, it's fun to actually play and tortage was the best example because you felt like you were doing something, moving forward. Then you get into places like the field of the dead 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 12, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
I think part of the problem with the perceived lack of content in conan is that its very easy to do higher level stuff so you might miss out on whole zones more appropiate to your level and skip right to the stuff that was supposed to get you through the dry spots.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 12, 2008, 09:59:26 AM
Quote
To be fair, the rezpad change was in the patch notes.

Just went back and checked, nope, it's in the player thread on undocumented changes and a couple of player threads complaining about it, but not the official notes.

Touche.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 12, 2008, 10:03:45 AM
Quote from: Lakov
i will say the questing to level ratio in aoc is probably higher than any other game and this isn't a good thing. I would rather have a well scripted or just well written destiny quest that by taking all day to complete gives me a level than 10 meaningless kill quests to do the same thing.
Ironically, I've done nothing but the Destiny quest line save for the two (so far) periods where they push you to the Day side to level up some more. This is either because they didn't tune the Destiny quest XP/level thing right or because they don't want you to spend all your time in single-player. That to me feels odd though. The original intent was 1-20 being entire solo and then once you hit 20, you could roll up any other class and start at 20 (thus meaning you only needed to do 1-20 once every). I'd much prefer that personally. The Destiny quest lines are different by archetype but cover the same territory you memorized the first time you did it for all the running you did on it.

Per capita, I'd wager very much that there are more quests per level in WoW than AoC though, by an order of magnitude. AoC and WoW are sort of inverted in this regard. In AoC, players start in one place and spread out. In WoW players start all over the place and then funnel. I prefer the WoW method because it includes the ample instancing to keep the asshats out. However, AoC falls down mostly because of the afforementioned not-originally-intended repeated 1-20 game.

So we agree. I too would much rather have a well-scripted storyline* of a single long quest line than having to bounce from zone to zone doing exactly the same Kill X, Kill X+, Kill Boss. WoW has a LOT of that, but the pacing was good enough to not bother me until I tried alts.

* accepting that "well-scripted" is in the context of MMOs as they exist.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 12, 2008, 10:04:01 AM
I think part of the problem with the perceived lack of content in conan is that its very easy to do higher level stuff so you might miss out on whole zones more appropiate to your level and skip right to the stuff that was supposed to get you through the dry spots.

Not a bad point.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: K9 on June 12, 2008, 10:41:54 AM
Sunwell gear looks like so much arse :(


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 12, 2008, 11:36:32 AM
This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 12, 2008, 11:38:23 AM
This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.

I know far more people who are completely against playing PvP than people who are for it. So, I seriously doubt your prediction.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Signe on June 12, 2008, 11:42:54 AM
I don't know.  PvE only, no choice for any sort of PvP, not even duels or BGs?  I can see that sort of MMORPG being mostly phased out in favour of those with a choice. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 12, 2008, 11:53:53 AM
Every dikuclone will have some form of consensual PvP from now on. Is that really up for debate?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 12, 2008, 11:59:49 AM
I guess I was thinking all or nothing. No PvE just PvP, which on a re-read isn't what was said. Ya, I can see there being PvP in every MMO from now on.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 12, 2008, 01:42:18 PM
This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.
How is AoC sign of it, exactly? Thought it had plenty PvE servers with PvP limited to the yet-to-be-seen city sieges... and it's rather early to tell how their PvP servers shape up.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 12, 2008, 03:10:11 PM
This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.
How is AoC sign of it, exactly? Thought it had plenty PvE servers with PvP limited to the yet-to-be-seen city sieges... and it's rather early to tell how their PvP servers shape up.

AoC's pvp system right now is no different from wow. open pvp servers? check. battlegrounds? check. City seiges? not in. Now I'm not saying it has no potential to grow and rather aoc may be more FUN pvp than wow but it's certainly not different from wow.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 12, 2008, 04:32:04 PM
Yeah! How can AoC be different when WoW invented PvP?]


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 12, 2008, 06:36:53 PM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more
2) WoW got stale - I don't know what Blizzard doing with all this money but they are surely not putting any of it back into the game


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on June 12, 2008, 06:44:57 PM
Propping up a worthless company like Vendi is expensive.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 12, 2008, 06:46:12 PM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 12, 2008, 06:58:55 PM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers devolving into PvPers and wanting more

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 12, 2008, 07:00:15 PM
I wonder if AOC has tapped into a desire from WOW players to move onto a "big boy" game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 12, 2008, 07:11:46 PM
Propping up a worthless company like Vendi is expensive.

That plus you can't just throw money at problems. Not until we have the tech to duplicate talent and download it into people's brains.  :ye_gods: :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 12, 2008, 09:42:20 PM
I don't know.  PvE only, no choice for any sort of PvP, not even duels or BGs?  I can see that sort of MMORPG being mostly phased out in favour of those with a choice. 

Did that kind of MMORPG ever exist? EQ1 had duels and flagging, AC1 had reversible flagging, I'm not thinking of a MMO where you couldn't PvP someone if you both wanted to.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 12, 2008, 10:33:32 PM
Digital Download sold out? (http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=42832)

I don't get it. Is this just good PR again? This sounds odd to me, are they trying to keep people away from Conan to have them wanting it more and more? Maybe Iain knows this, is this some sort of marketing? And will it work?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 12, 2008, 10:41:35 PM
Yeah! How can AoC be different when WoW invented PvP?]

I said the same as wow, not invented it. sheesh.

Compare aoc to doac, those are two very different pvp systems RvR vs open/battlegrounds. Then compare aoc to wow and you'll see beyond the combat istelf, the ruleset and design is essentially the same.  now correct me if im wrong but aoc doesnt even have player dueling available? wtf? that's one of the first steps IN pvp.

 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 13, 2008, 03:11:18 AM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers devolving into PvPers and wanting more

 :awesome_for_real:

How do you devolve from fighting AI to the real thing?

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nevermore on June 13, 2008, 05:12:00 AM
Digital Download sold out? (http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=42832)

I don't get it. Is this just good PR again? This sounds odd to me, are they trying to keep people away from Conan to have them wanting it more and more? Maybe Iain knows this, is this some sort of marketing? And will it work?

They ran out of bits.  They have to make more but there's a global shortage of 1s and 0s right now so it could be a while.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 13, 2008, 05:32:00 AM
Quote
EQ1 had duels and flagging,

Actually all EQ1 servers were full PK ready. I remember all the PK trolls before launch explaining to us useless clueless carebears that only 5 or 10% of the players would ever go non-PK and we would mostly be laughed at.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 13, 2008, 05:33:59 AM
Official stuff. Massive amounts of content incoming, and PvP in June (now). (http://www.funcom.com/wsp/funcom/frontend.cgi?func=publish.show&func_id=1303&table=CONTENT&item=1004)

Quote

Funcom and Eidos announce massive evolution plans for Age of Conan

Massive PvP update in June – New areas and dungeons – Powerpoints and Guild Alliance warfare to come

Durham, USA – June 13, 2008 – After the incredible initial success for Age of Conan, a whole world of MMO players are eagerly anticipating the future plans for one of the most popular online games ever released. While Age of Conan has already evolved massively since launch, numerous expansive additions are yet to come. Funcom and Eidos are therefore proud to lift the veil on Age of Conan’s promising future, and today the two companies reveal selected features which are now in production.

"While we have enjoyed the initial success for Age of Conan, we know that a solid launch is but the start when it comes to the MMO genre,” said Gaute Godager, Game Director on Age of Conan. ”As we look ahead we are preparing a huge amount of new content, and what we are presenting today will evolve Age of Conan even further. It’s naturally an incredibly ambitious update plan for a live MMO game, but we are certain our players would want nothing less.”

Without further ado, here are some of the cool things to expect in the months to come:

PvP evolved – To the Death

The great combat system in Age of Conan has taken MMO fighting to a new level of fun, and Player versus Player combat plays a major part in this. As a result, a massive new PvP update is planned for late June. Aptly called To the death, this update brings more consequence and rewards to PvP, and an important part of it is the Fugitive system. The more lower level players you kill, the easier it is for others to hunt you down. In addition, ten PvP levels with additional ranks will be introduced, as well as specific gear and weapons for PvP.

Guild Alliance Warfare

Preproduction has started on a MASSIVE free update which will come later this year. Currently titled "Kingship!”, large clusters of guilds will be able to form alliances, and rule and conquer on a massive scale. Everyone in a guild alliance will play a part in this system, and together they can even erect unique looking alliance Battlekeeps. The alliances can also fight over, and build, culture-specific "wonders of the world”, with a direct link to higher powers! As part of the system Funcom will also facilitate larger amounts of players in massive battles.

Powerpoints

This fall, a unique reward and character evolution system called Powerpoints will be introduced. This rewards active in-game behavior, and allows for gathering points through numerous methods, including owning a Battlekeep, playing the end-game at level 80, winning PvP matches, or simply being an active guild member or subscribing to the game. There will be many ways to obtain Powerpoints, and numerous rewards, ranging from exclusive Powerfeats to weapons, armor and potions. Powerpoints may even allow you to level faster!

New areas and dungeons

You won’t need to wait for an expansion pack to explore exciting new areas. In the next period, Funcom will include several new areas, as well as evolving already existing areas. This includes a brand new dungeon in Aquilonia, reshaping three dungeons in Stygia, and an entire mountain range in Cimmeria!

Improved player-made villages and Battlekeep systems

While the guild alliance system brings a whole new level to the game, Funcom will continue to expand the existing player-made areas and the systems running them. A focus on evolving the massive elements of the game even further continues, ranging from placing NPC’s in the cities to more choices and benefits.

Social updates

An MMO is nothing without a good social scene. While Conan is all about crushing your enemies, social enhancements are also getting some love. A fun example is the combo-based dancing system which is now coming to the game, and it’s entirely motion captured by professional dance artists.

More adventures

Age of Conan has received tremendous praise for immersion and the great voice-over quests. This is but the start of the adventure, and numerous new quests are coming into the game, spread across the entire world and across the level ranges. Soon 60 additional quests will also get full voice acting, further improving immersion.

Embracing community feedback Since launch several enhancements and fixes have been implemented to Age of Conan, and Funcom has continuously staffed up the service departments to improve customer satisfaction. This has already resulted in a better game experience, but the work will continue. At the heart of all of this stands the Age of Conan community. A lot of the upcoming improvements to the game will be based directly on community feedback, and the wishes and concerns players have when it comes to the future of the game will always be taken into account.

By reading the community websites, official forums and the monthly Clan of Conan newsletter you can expect additional information about upcoming features and released updates, as well as an arena to give your feedback. A new Clan of Conan newsletter is also going live today, with more detail on the upcoming features. http://funcom.cachefly.net/WebFiles/Newsletter/Issue17/


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Xerapis on June 13, 2008, 05:36:42 AM
The Digital Download offer is currently down for maintenance.
The offer will be available again soon.

~sigh~


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 13, 2008, 05:44:40 AM
Quote
EQ1 had duels and flagging,

Actually all EQ1 servers were full PK ready. I remember all the PK trolls before launch explaining to us useless clueless carebears that only 5 or 10% of the players would ever go non-PK and we would mostly be laughed at.


That's what I meant by flagging (turning in your book to the Priest of Discord).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 13, 2008, 05:45:11 AM
Quote from: Eidos®
Updates, the future, amibiotn, blah!

Is it just me or this is the signal they finally finished counting the revenues of that million boxes?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 13, 2008, 06:08:31 AM
Quote
Social updates

An MMO is nothing without a good social scene. While Conan is all about crushing your enemies, social enhancements are also getting some love. A fun example is the combo-based dancing system which is now coming to the game, and it’s entirely motion captured by professional dance artists.
Oh gods, if they clone Audition there i might be actually tempted to play... :ye_gods:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 13, 2008, 06:17:15 AM
Quote
Oh gods, if they clone Audition there i might be actually tempted to play...

*snark* More seriously, the club scene in AO was a huge part of the game and there was a defacto interacting dance thing where a new emote would interrupt an executing emote and let you do all kinds of neat stuff. I look forward to the mica dance floor at the Scorpion's Retreat. (Well except for the me and my entire guild having cancelled the game thing.)

I'm obviously cynical about Conan, but I'm not sure how much here is really a new announcement as much as it is them recasting finishing the game as a big investment in the future and hoping to keep up the first months retention. Look for an announcement of a subscribed new player total on the 18th before the first monthers expire.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 13, 2008, 06:19:51 AM
So you and your boyfriend cancelled Numtini? Bummer for Funcom!  :rimshot:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 13, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
*useless post*


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 13, 2008, 07:02:23 AM
O.o

I seriously thought Numtini was a girl. The joke here being that it was only her and her boyfriend in the guild.

If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me and I'll be properly embarrassed, extend apologies, and all that.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lum on June 13, 2008, 07:02:45 AM
The posts above are wrong in several mutually independently spiralling out of control ways.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 13, 2008, 07:08:25 AM
Lakov is developing a serious condition with Conan, a rare syndrom that compels him/her to stay online all the time to get every single chance to badmouth it, even tangentially (as in the above example).
I didn't see anything like this since HRose and his Mark Jacobs/Mythic days. And apparently a cure for such diseases has yet to be found.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on June 13, 2008, 07:10:23 AM
No, Numtini is a woman but that's not the part(s) that's wrong :awesome_for_real:



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 13, 2008, 07:13:03 AM
This thread is beyond the  :awesome_for_real:. I've think we've done  :oh_i_see: too.  :uhrr: is appropriate.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 13, 2008, 07:16:44 AM
I'm very bored at work, it's my only explanation. Besides that I'm not sure slayer knew numtini was a girl.

As to conan vs lakov? what can i say, it had great potential to be something different but in the end it turned out to be a a very buggy and very hastily made EQ/wow clone with nice graphics and a more interactive combat system. That amount of wasted potential really ticks me off in ways that utter failure of a game couldnot. You're supposed to learn from mistakes and move forward, new games are supposed to be bigger and better while this was simply, shinier.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 13, 2008, 07:43:33 AM
Quote
oh, right..you were seriously making a gay joke

But I'm a cheerleader lesbian. *shrug*

Most of the core raiders in my EQ2 guild moved over to AOC. None of us are sticking with it, though we all saw a lot that we liked. Unfortunately for me and my desire to see the T3 ROK raids, they're not coming back to EQ2 either as far as I can tell.

On the press release, part of my cynicism is having been an AO player and watched the Shadowlands, Alien Invasion, and New Eden expansions PR vs. reality for AO. Funcom often announces things that are far different and more ambitious from the end product. For specifics about the AOC release. The PVP update in June was supposed to be in the game at release afaik. The new dungeons and areas were already announced and while they fill some pretty large gaps, probably most people will have outlevelled them by the time they're out. The guild and siege stuff sounds very vague--particularly for a game promising massive battles pre-release, but delivered limited to is it 48 people? And is 48 48x48 or 24x24--I've seen both numbers quoted. The PP (wow, unfortunately acronym) could be good or bad, but at least it addresses the issue that people are hitting the max level extremely fast.

I hope the thing comes together. If they can get that gameplay working with a more together game behind it, it'll be great. Fighting is insanely fun, I just got ground down by a load of bugs and what I see as some serious failings.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 13, 2008, 07:50:08 AM
You're supposed to learn from mistakes and move forward, new games are supposed to be bigger and better while this was simply, shinier.
It just needs to leverage the social dynamics knowhow and combine it with cutting edge AAA gameplay.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Hutch on June 13, 2008, 08:31:52 AM
You're supposed to learn from mistakes and move forward, new games are supposed to be bigger and better while this was simply, shinier.
It just needs to leverage the social dynamics knowhow and combine it with cutting edge AAA gameplay.
Om nom nom.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 13, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
I was raging on guild size, cause she stated her guild stopped subscribing and I claimed her guild = her and her boyfriend

Yeah, I know... I fail.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 13, 2008, 02:23:59 PM
You're supposed to learn from mistakes and move forward, new games are supposed to be bigger and better while this was simply, shinier.

WOW wasn't bigger than it's predecessors, in fact it stripped out many features.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Oban on June 13, 2008, 03:01:25 PM
WOW wasn't bigger than it's predecessors, in fact it stripped out many features.

Suck is a feature?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 13, 2008, 03:07:44 PM
You're supposed to learn from mistakes and move forward, new games are supposed to be bigger and better while this was simply, shinier.

WOW wasn't bigger than it's predecessors, in fact it stripped out many features.

Bigger is the wrong word here. But I think Lakov was using the "bigger and better" express just because it's an expression, not a statement of fact.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 13, 2008, 03:19:52 PM
WOW wasn't bigger than it's predecessors, in fact it stripped out many features.

Suck is a feature?

If it is, WoW certainly didn't strip it out.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 13, 2008, 04:03:02 PM
It's an important distinction because part of what made WOW better was that it was smaller in some ways. Smaller things are easier to polish. Bigger and better are usually at odds, the only way to do both bigger and better is to spend more money or come up with more efficient development methods.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 13, 2008, 05:02:35 PM
WoW was smaller than EQ1 of the day. Was it smaller than pre-Kunark EQ1 though? I dunno but I suspect you could fit all of Eastern Kingdoms into Western Karana :-)

The point is that size does not matter any more than any single other feature. WoW got it right by doing what they could and doing it right. They didn't bite off some totally innovative new way of doing combat. They didn't invent some fundamental new method of player interaction. They didn't have space flight. They didn't have player housing. They didn't have a crafting system of any real import. They didn't have a complex system of gathering, protection, land ownership, sieges, and political dimensions. They did what they also do: assess a genre worth entering, find what works, polish the hell out of it, launch, moneyhats.

That's all the did. It cost them a shitload of time and cash to do it, so the effort shouldn't be understated. But this wasn't about creating art, furthering the genre in some esoteric way, hoping the players would catch on, and merely giving them some half-functioning tools to try it. It is a market success first, a critical one second.

That still leaves a whole hell of a lot room open for innovation and invention. I give props to any game that can do that and be moderately successful. Eve, AoC, ATiTD in its own way, CoX too, games that tried something not entirely expected and gave it their all.

This genre is not done as long as people can still find ways to get their non-standard ideas funded.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 13, 2008, 05:48:10 PM
Yeah by smaller I mean feature set, not land mass.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on June 13, 2008, 06:43:33 PM
And do females really do a quarter less damage?!

Edit: Wow I guess they do. (http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=69451) And it's supposed to be fixed in the patch tomorrow. That's a pretty big bug.

Did this actually get fixed yet?

And something that sounded cool but I haven't heard a whisper about since release - what ever happened to bar fights?  Are they in game?  Are they any fun?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 14, 2008, 07:08:03 AM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers devolving into PvPers and wanting more

 :awesome_for_real:

How do you devolve from fighting AI to the real thing?

 :awesome_for_real:

"Mature" is the wrong word for 'focusing on PvP gameplay'.

Also:  :uhrr: at 'real thing' with reference to online e-peen activities.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 14, 2008, 09:13:07 AM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 14, 2008, 09:16:11 AM
I don't know.  PvE only, no choice for any sort of PvP, not even duels or BGs?  I can see that sort of MMORPG being mostly phased out in favour of those with a choice. 

Did that kind of MMORPG ever exist? EQ1 had duels and flagging, AC1 had reversible flagging, I'm not thinking of a MMO where you couldn't PvP someone if you both wanted to.

Ahaha. PvP in EQ1? AC outside of PvP servers? Yes, with exception of golden-era UO mmorpgs up to SB were pure undiluted PvE crap.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 14, 2008, 09:22:13 AM
There's no reason PvE and PvP should be relegated to separate games. Neither WoW nor AoC show PvP as the "dominant" playstyle. However, they both do show that well executed PvP can be a way to extend the playerbase, either by giving your attracted players something else to do, or getting new players.

Neither offers PvP as an exclusive out-of-box experience though. It's just alongside the PvE game.

This is the part that the genre needed to wait to see happen (again). We spent years just waiting for games to a) launch at all; and, b) be playable at all. Now we're over that hump. There's some pretty established rules we won't see much divergence from for awhile, like XP and levels and character abilities unlocked along the way. Now that these work, experimentation on new stuff, new competitive advantages can emerge.

Even games mostly about PvP still will have ways to protect the non-PvPers. Eve is a good model here as a total system, even if the individual features would differ for a fantasy DIKU (like XP instead of pre-loaded skills, avatar instead of ship, walkable terrain instead of a bunch of empty space you warp through, etc).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Bzalthek on June 14, 2008, 09:33:15 AM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

That was a quick edit.  I guess the "Carebear Motherfuckers" aren't going extinct quite yet.

I look at PVP as it existed in UO, and I look at PVP as it exists in WoW, and it doesn't strike me as the PVE that is on its way out the door.  AoC and upcoming WAR may change this, but making a prediction just now would be premature.  We don't know if the games will survive, and we don't know how much the PVP will be watered down in order to survive.

That being said, PVP is here to stay.  Not because there is any significant market for PVPers, but because it's the smart move.  "Balance" issues not withstanding, PVP is just easier to cater to, because players are doing most of the work.  It's also dangerous, because as more and more games come into existence, that large PVE segment aren't going to gravitate towards "another PVP game."  In my humble opinion, PVP should be, and probably will be for successful MMOs, a quality sideshow entertainment.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 14, 2008, 09:41:31 AM
Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.
There already is mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP. The weak point of that line of reasoning is, oddly enough they just don't seem to be doing very well, so why do you believe that's going to change? And i still don't see how AoC is proof of it somehow, given it doesn't even reach the "PvP is dominant feature" stage. Certainly it didn't seem dominant enough to even get fully implemented at launch.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: krazyk on June 14, 2008, 10:05:02 AM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

That was a quick edit.  I guess the "Carebear Motherfuckers" aren't going extinct quite yet.

I look at PVP as it existed in UO, and I look at PVP as it exists in WoW, and it doesn't strike me as the PVE that is on its way out the door.  AoC and upcoming WAR may change this, but making a prediction just now would be premature.  We don't know if the games will survive, and we don't know how much the PVP will be watered down in order to survive.

That being said, PVP is here to stay.  Not because there is any significant market for PVPers, but because it's the smart move.  "Balance" issues not withstanding, PVP is just easier to cater to, because players are doing most of the work.  It's also dangerous, because as more and more games come into existence, that large PVE segment aren't going to gravitate towards "another PVP game."  In my humble opinion, PVP should be, and probably will be for successful MMOs, a quality sideshow entertainment.

Hardcore pvp might not be mainstream, but pvp itself probably has a larger audience than pve.

And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind (grinding new alts, and gear, and rep, and etc. in order to compete in pvp is why we all quit, seriously fuck that shit in a pvp game, which is why I won't touch AoC, or Warhammer). I also heard it said less than 5% of the player base in WoW does pve end game raids can you say the same for bgs and arenas? I don't know anyone who doesn't run bgs and play arenas.

Now the real problem here in making these comparisons between primarily pve games and primarily pvp games is we only have failed examples of pvp games to compare to WoW. Someday someone will make a pvp game as well thought out and polished as WoW and my prediction is it will make WoW and other pve games look niche in comparison. The first thing I would do as a developer of a pvp game is cut out the need for a pve grind. The dev resources used to make the pve game could be devoted to polishing the other parts of the game that matter to pvpers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: krazyk on June 14, 2008, 10:16:06 AM
Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.
There already is mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP. The weak point of that line of reasoning is, oddly enough they just don't seem to be doing very well, so why do you believe that's going to change? And i still don't see how AoC is proof of it somehow, given it doesn't even reach the "PvP is dominant feature" stage. Certainly it didn't seem dominant enough to even get fully implemented at launch.

I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)

I want a game where my friends and I can jump in form a group and start pvping, or work toward a group/guild based objective. We don't wanna worry about Joe the guy who can't play as much so always get left behind in levels and quits because he can't do the fun shit with the rest of us. We don't wanna worry about Kevin the cheap ass who can't afford a decent PC so we're stuck playing games his machine can run. These are always the issues that keeps my friends from playing PC games and if one of us can't play none of us do. I might be an isolated case, but I doubt it. Most people play what their friends play.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 14, 2008, 10:28:00 AM
I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)
Planetside?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 14, 2008, 11:36:30 AM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

Keep telling yourself that, sunshine.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on June 14, 2008, 11:37:36 AM
"Care to join a BG PuG" and "Care to join a raid group" aren't exactly comparable demographics.

Anyways. The reason why mainstream (or of mainstream production values) PvP-only games won't work is the same reason you can't start playing any online shooter that has been out for more than a year. You will be obliterated from day one, unless you can play match-made games (like, only against your friends) and that in turn kind of takes away the purpose of it being an MMO to begin with. PvE is a common ground where everyone can acheive something, even if they're tools at the game, as it has the challenge it's designed to have, not a level of challenge that's rising every day.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 14, 2008, 02:00:25 PM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

Keep telling yourself that, sunshine.

I will enjoy writing lengthy posts trying to link behavioral tendencies of 'PvE minority' to antisocial maladaptive traits of individual players.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Samwise on June 14, 2008, 02:38:10 PM
Quote
EQ1 had duels and flagging,

Actually all EQ1 servers were full PK ready. I remember all the PK trolls before launch explaining to us useless clueless carebears that only 5 or 10% of the players would ever go non-PK and we would mostly be laughed at.

It almost sounds like you're speaking in the past tense.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 14, 2008, 08:52:34 PM
My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

Keep telling yourself that, sunshine.

I will enjoy writing lengthy posts trying to link behavioral tendencies of 'PvE minority' to antisocial maladaptive traits of individual players.

And we will enjoy laughing at you. Oh wait, I already do.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 14, 2008, 10:25:50 PM
I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)
Planetside?

Fury?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 14, 2008, 10:35:22 PM
Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.
There already is mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP. The weak point of that line of reasoning is, oddly enough they just don't seem to be doing very well, so why do you believe that's going to change? And i still don't see how AoC is proof of it somehow, given it doesn't even reach the "PvP is dominant feature" stage. Certainly it didn't seem dominant enough to even get fully implemented at launch.

Right now, PvP is what you do when you've finished the PvE side of things. It's also pretty much a standard feature of modern MMOs because it gives players something to do long after the PvE content has been exhausted.

AoC is proof of very little right now. We'll have to wait and see how its PvP audience develops itself.

I'm sure pretty much every MMO with a combat system moving forward will have PvP implemented to some extent. But I also believe that PvP is the simplest way of providing player-made content; once more attention starts getting put into letting players create their own PvE content (of which, yes, 90% won't be worth experiencing, but 10% of 1000 different projects still can give you quality material to experience) we'll see a shift away from all players thinking the end-game somehow has circle around PvP.

(I am thinking about raids as end-game PvE content, but that's gated by the required player numbers. End-game PvE shouldn't suddenly require you've got 49 friends to be able to play it as the only option.)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 15, 2008, 04:30:22 AM
Right now, PvP is what you do when you've finished the PvE side of things. It's also pretty much a standard feature of modern MMOs because it gives players something to do long after the PvE content has been exhausted.
Yup, though i wonder how large part of people who get done with the PvE part of game simply unsubscribe (occasionally checking back when there's new update) rather than join the PvP. There isn't much data to go by here... can only recall couple forum polls from LotRO boards where roughly half-2/3rd of participants reported they have no interest/don't play PvM at all. That's game-specific and forum based though, so really doesn't say much.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 15, 2008, 04:45:53 AM
(I am thinking about raids as end-game PvE content, but that's gated by the required player numbers. End-game PvE shouldn't suddenly require you've got 49 friends to be able to play it as the only option.)

The amusing part is, endgame PvE has started to diminish in required # of people over the years.  EQ had it's 100+ person raids, WoW had 40, then 25, and the next expansion will have 10-man versions of all the 25-man stuff.   Not to mention the badge gear and pvp gear you can do with smaller groups at your own pace as your ability allows.

PvP on the other hand keeps requiring larger groups of people.  From the small gank groups of UO, to the large groups needed to run a city in AoC or the fucking enormous corps and alliances needed to hold space in EVE.  Not to mention even being able to PLAY the game on a day-to-day basis is suicide solo on a "pvp" server.

Not only that, but to watch a hardcore PVPer toss around the term "Catass" while spending just as many, if not more, time defending a player-structure gathering resources for that structure... or prepping for combat is fucking hilarious.   


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 15, 2008, 06:27:44 PM
PvP content is a bit more flexible on player numbers since they aren't always hardcoded - small PvP teams can meet, duels occur one-on-one, etc - while raids / endgame PvE often have fixed player requirements, be it 100 players or 10.

But I do take your point.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 15, 2008, 06:40:10 PM
Not to mention even being able to PLAY the game on a day-to-day basis is suicide solo on a "pvp" server.


I can only speak from personal experience here, but I've done largely solo play in lots of games on pvp servers, and I've gotten up to 55 in record speed with very little powerleveling almost entirely solo, and "suicidal" is the last word I'd use to describe it.  Maybe the RP-PVP server is different, and the other servers are just nonstop gankfests, but that certainly hasn't been the case thus far.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 15, 2008, 07:31:58 PM
Yea, so far our RP-PvP server in AoC has been pretty tame. I suspect it's because people are on their alts alongside the few newbs trickling in. I do like when I get jumped though. So far I've been able to escape, form a police force and come back for retribution. Not only is it still fun as hell so many years after doing the same in UO, now the group travels together to clean out the rest of the quests in a place. It really is immersive, the same sort of thing I sought in Eve but never had the patience to get. Prior to that was SB which was good fun in an ancient engine.

Anyway, this is old new again, in a damned refreshing way.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 15, 2008, 08:11:59 PM
Yeah, its been fun. Me and Nerf running around attacking anyone on a horse (outta jealousy maybe?) in the Field of the Dead the other night, while still getting a ton of questing done was quite fun. PoM plus ToS is SToMP

Hahah, omg I came up with that myself.

Anyways, between KoS guilds and occasional assholes, there is plenty of fun to be had. My 'whack a guy with a mace and see if he fights back' techinique can produce great fun as well. PvP servers are full of win.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: KallDrexx on June 16, 2008, 08:29:41 AM
I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)
Planetside?
Fury?

Fury missed the gear grinding, the cheap computer comptability part, and the balance parts of his post, so doesn't count.  Plus it's design was fucked in a lot of other aspects.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on June 16, 2008, 01:14:10 PM
Fury missed the gear grinding, the cheap computer comptability part, and the balance parts of his post, so doesn't count.  Plus it's design was fucked in a lot of other aspects.
If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 16, 2008, 01:47:44 PM
If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*

It's easy.

Think outside of the box.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 16, 2008, 05:28:44 PM
Not to mention even being able to PLAY the game on a day-to-day basis is suicide solo on a "pvp" server.


I can only speak from personal experience here, but I've done largely solo play in lots of games on pvp servers, and I've gotten up to 55 in record speed with very little powerleveling almost entirely solo, and "suicidal" is the last word I'd use to describe it.  Maybe the RP-PVP server is different, and the other servers are just nonstop gankfests, but that certainly hasn't been the case thus far.

I have done it in UO, WoW PvP servers, SB and now AoC. It just takes some understanding of how/why you get ganked to avoid it and getting rid of "entitled' attitude that gets WUAs of the world repeatedly killed.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Azazel on June 16, 2008, 05:50:18 PM
ooh! a troll post calling WUA out. How new!



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 17, 2008, 02:08:39 AM
Fury missed the gear grinding, the cheap computer comptability part, and the balance parts of his post, so doesn't count.  Plus it's design was fucked in a lot of other aspects.
If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*

Hey. Didn't we all agree that recent Shadowbane is the perfect PVP model and that is why AoC is timidly trying to copy it?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 04:28:36 AM
Hey. Didn't we all agree that recent Shadowbane is the perfect PVP model and that is why AoC is timidly trying to copy it?

Lol. There is nothing the MMOG Genre has done that hasn't been done better outside of the MMOG genre. Shadowbane isn't even remotely near the best way for players to battle eachother, or even have large groups of people battle eachother. AoC won't ever do anything better than any other game outside of the genre ever has or ever will either.

Now, did Shadowbane have the best PVP within the MMOG genre? Who gives a flying fuck. The game was a broken piece of shit. The same goes for SWG and crafting. UO and uhmmm, I don't know, finding new ways to abuse the system. Planetside and large scale FPS battles. Etc, etc. We can pick the best of the genre and it's still a dismal failure. The only real success that's worth discussing is this:

WoW did "get $15 from millions of people" correctly. It's the best of the genre and all of gaming at that ('that' being "money for Porsche upgrades"). That's the exception. That's it. It's the only one.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 17, 2008, 04:34:17 AM
So you're off AoC then?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 17, 2008, 04:50:26 AM
Quote
we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game.

Wouldn't this be an FPS?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 04:50:59 AM
Yeah, schild logic is sometimes mind boggling.

AoC won't ever do anything better than any other game outside of the genre ever has or ever will either.

This doesn't even make sense. Or are you saying that a 64 player FPS map will always beat MMO massive scale combat?


Why are you playing again? Cause it is shiny? Or the great PvE encounters the game promises?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 04:51:04 AM
So you're off AoC then?  :awesome_for_real:

Because Falconeer has blinders? Yea, no.

Quote
Yeah, schild logic is sometimes mind boggling.

Quote from: schild on Today at 03:28:36 AM
AoC won't ever do anything better than any other game outside of the genre ever has or ever will either.

This doesn't even make sense. Or are you saying that a 64 player FPS map will always beat MMO massive scale combat?

Why are you playing again? Cause it is shiny? Or the great PvE encounters the game promises?

For the forseeable future, yes. A 64 player FPS map will beat out massive scale combat. In terms of the amount of fun for Every Player involved, there's absolutely no question.

Why am I playing? I'm a sucker for crafting and city-building. And I highly suggest they fix that shit up right fast.

Quote
we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game.

Wouldn't this be an FPS?

I've always had the feeling that the vast majority of MMOG PVP-Types couldn't cut it in a real skill-based environment. They'd either break down emotionally or just simply not have the skill to compete on any level. One of those 2 is pretty much guaranteed to appear. Particularly obvious if you read the retard-speak in any PVP forum. Also, I'm 100% sure I'm right. Let's call it "Schild's Theorem of PVP Disorder." That said, it's the former (emotional) that is far more likely than the latter. Any catassing PVP-Type can easily put enough time into a game to compete skill-wise. But their brain just isn't cut out to be a good sport or even handle the environment of people who take the game seriously but not the competition.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 05:08:10 AM
No random encounters in FPSes. The varying degrees of fights:

single one on one fights

Random ganks, both sides calling in their friends for a nice rumble

Two lower guys try to take out higher level adversary

Group vrs Group warfare, being able to pick out correct targets and execute while protecting your own healers/glass cannons

Large scale 40 on 40 fights, its controlled chaos sometimes but unless you have been on a PVP server you wouldn't understand how cool they can be

A few hundred a side, Planetside fuckin' owned face. There is no non-MMO that can bring that to the table.



Claim MMO PVP as skill-less all you want, but it still does not make it true. FPS's are absolutely great to log in and play for a while, but rarely hold interest for me for long. CoD4 was excellent, but I'd rather just bust that out for our small LAN parties than play it every night. Anyways, to each is own I guess.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Draegan on June 17, 2008, 05:08:51 AM
I'm a PVP guy and i spek gud gramer.

I had no idea on your disdain and total hatred for anything associated with PVP-MMOs.  Stop oppressing us.

However, in reality, you can hate us all you want or claim total slack jaw status for everyone that enjoys that style of play but it won't change anything.  There is no way a FPS map can offer the same thing as a PVP MMO ever.  It's just that simple.  You can have your own opinion, and thats fine, but you yourself say that you hate PVP in MMOs or at least, non-controlled PVP, so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 17, 2008, 05:19:34 AM
Does Conan have massive PVP? I thought it was 48 players only -- which I hear variously as 48x48 or 24x24.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on June 17, 2008, 05:21:59 AM
Some PvPers need to catass, too.  There will always be a demand for PvP in MMOs. ;D


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 05:27:10 AM
so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.

My opinion for what's best for PVPs is exactly right though. Quarantine all the PVPers to their own little dens of iniquity. Which companies do. And then do SEPERATE balance for them and let them stay in their little isolated world of whining and imba. It's the best for everyone. The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority, and on top of that, make changes that effects people who don't even give a shit about PVP until they've maxed out. I'm all for sieges and such guys, don't misunderstand me, but PVP has it's place. And it's place is at the back of the bus where it can't disturb the majority.

Yes, that was a bad taste black joke. I also think PVPers shouldn't have a right to vote. There's a huge difference between folks who want to enjoy the game and the professional content and deal with PVP for the endgame and the types who want it busted out at the beginning prior to 10% of the leveling curve. Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 05:32:14 AM
so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.

My opinion for what's best for PVPs is exactly right though. Quarantine all the PVPers to their own little dens of iniquity. Which companies do. And then do SEPERATE balance for them and let them stay in their little isolated world of whining and imba. It's the best for everyone. The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority, and on top of that, make changes that effects people who don't even give a shit about PVP until they've maxed out. I'm all for sieges and such guys, don't misunderstand me, but PVP has it's place. And it's place is at the back of the bus where it can't disturb the majority.

Yes, that was a bad taste black joke. I also think PVPers shouldn't have a right to vote. There's a huge difference between folks who want to enjoy the game and the professional content and deal with PVP for the endgame and the types who want it busted out at the beginning prior to 10% of the leveling curve. Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.

I know you are a WOW hater, but you don't get to ignore the amount of people that engage in PvP in it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 05:36:15 AM
Quote
I know you are a WOW hater, but you don't get to ignore the amount of people that engage in PvP in it.

It provides some of the best gear in the game and is the only thing to do once you max out and run out of raids or get bored of doing the same ones all the time, right?

And this is all meta to the other thread, I guarantee that if you weed out all the uberguild catasses, the majority of those folks are still there for social reasons and battlegrounds and such make the chat room aspect seem like less of a waste of time.

Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 05:37:27 AM
Any forum except this one, PVE guys!


Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 05:41:13 AM
Any forum except this one, PVE guys!
Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.

I meant official forums, you predictable bastard. And yea, I can't let developers who read f13 think you matter.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 05:47:06 AM
That's cool, I don't carry around any dillusions of grandeur.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 17, 2008, 06:07:02 AM
you guys have a secret love don't you?  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 17, 2008, 06:15:52 AM
Now, did Shadowbane have the best PVP within the MMOG genre? Who gives a flying fuck.

Hey. Lantyssa said: "If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*".

And I replied that Shadowbane is PvP done right. Is Shadowbane a great game? Maybe not. Is the Shadowbane PvP model close to perfection? Hell yes. That was my point.
If it sounded like I said "Shadowbane is the best game ever" than I worded it badly.

Schild, do you agree that the most recent Shadowbane PvP model is the best possible for a PvP MMORPG (not an hybrid)? I am sure you don't. Then, and I would really like to know, what would you change of that model, or how would you like the "perfect" PvP MMOrpg?


Ninja EDIT: changed PvP Game with PvP MMORPG. My bad.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 06:16:44 AM
Quote
I know you are a WOW hater, but you don't get to ignore the amount of people that engage in PvP in it.

It provides some of the best gear in the game and is the only thing to do once you max out and run out of raids or get bored of doing the same ones all the time, right?

And this is all meta to the other thread, I guarantee that if you weed out all the uberguild catasses, the majority of those folks are still there for social reasons and battlegrounds and such make the chat room aspect seem like less of a waste of time.

Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

People will PvP where there is a reward. I'm as shocked as you are.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 06:18:38 AM
Falconeer, it doesn't matter if the PVP was done right or wrong. The game was bad.

Quote
People will PvP where there is a reward. I'm as shocked as you are.

People will roll around in shit for a reward. ^_^


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Draegan on June 17, 2008, 06:43:50 AM
The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority.

How can you tell me this with such assurance?  If you take a look at WOW for instance, all the best PVE guilds are on PVP servers, there is one counter example to your point.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 17, 2008, 07:03:44 AM
you guys have a secret love don't you?  :heartbreak:

Ya, I was going to post something similar this morning but never got around to it. Get a room!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 17, 2008, 07:06:25 AM
The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority.

How can you tell me this with such assurance?  If you take a look at WOW for instance, all the best PVE guilds are on PVP servers, there is one counter example to your point.

They're PVE guilds on a PVP server.
  1) They're doing it wrong
  2) They did it because of the 'no pve to pvp transfers!' policy.  It's a way of enforcing elitism on their part.  It's the "you must be this hardcore to ride" sign. They admit as much.  
 3) PvP servers in WoW are about pointless.  The world TM/ Crossroads/ Stranglethorn 'raids' still happen, only on the PVP servers the lowbies get to be targets as much as the NPCs and the 70s still ignore it.  

and finally, as all the 'leet hardcore pvpers' will tell you.  WoW PVP "doesn't count."  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 17, 2008, 07:07:03 AM
The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority.

How can you tell me this with such assurance?  If you take a look at WOW for instance, all the best PVE guilds are on PVP servers, there is one counter example to your point.



Or just say "DAoC". I mean, the entire purpose of that game was RvR. Unless you're specifying the 'dreds where it was FFA, then I agree. But anyone that played that game knew that the end game was PvP and I didn't know of a single person who never participated in it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 17, 2008, 07:39:38 AM
I would be willing to bet theres a shit load more chance people would pvp without any loot involved than raid or craft without loot involved.  Getting loot is what this games are about, saying people are only pvping in wow because of the gear is pretty disingenous.  MMORPGs = leveling/crafting/raiding/pvp, only one of those is done mostly for the pure fun of it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 17, 2008, 07:48:44 AM
MMORPGs = leveling/crafting/raiding/pvp, only one of those is done mostly for the pure fun of it.

Don't forget socializing.  :grin:

*ducks and runs for the exit*


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 17, 2008, 07:54:03 AM
We could always just say that MMO's are about different things for different people, and be done with it.  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 17, 2008, 07:55:02 AM
I would be willing to bet theres a shit load more chance people would pvp without any loot involved than raid or craft without loot involved.  Getting loot is what this games are about, saying people are only pvping in wow because of the gear is pretty disingenous.  MMORPGs = leveling/crafting/raiding/pvp, only one of those is done mostly for the pure fun of it.

Which one of those would that be? (And yeah don't forget socializing, good call Brogarn)

I almost never pvped for fun in UO. I pvped because most players were such easy marks and the ones that weren't were just a matter of time before I cracked them and found their weakness and then buried them with it. Me in my asshole phase when steamrolling punks in Quake got stale. Fun isn't really the word I'd use for it after the first couple of times. Then again, I was a sadistic, vindictive bastard then too.

I've had a helluva lot more fun in games since then like EQ, EQ2, SWG, AOC, etc, by simply exploring. And my best overall MMO experience, bar-none, was simply running through Velious and shooting the shit with my old guild in EQ.

Loot? Fuck that noise. And I wholeheartedly agree with Schild. I've always been of the opinion that the hardcore MMO pvpers are the people that couldn't cut it in FPSes.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 17, 2008, 08:17:31 AM
Loot? Fuck that noise. And I wholeheartedly agree with Schild. I've always been of the opinion that the hardcore MMO pvpers are the people that couldn't cut it in FPSes.

I'm just curious, but what about those of us who regularly PvP in mmogs AND play FPSes?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 08:18:51 AM
Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: amiable on June 17, 2008, 08:25:53 AM
Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

Pre-BC the loot for PvP was terrible, but it still had a much higher percentage of participation by the general public then Raiding, even on PvE servers.  There are still active twink guilds for AB and WSG in all brackets.  If PvP truly were a headache niche, why are all of the new MMORPGs coming out including a fairly major PvP component?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 17, 2008, 08:35:37 AM
Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

Pre-BC the loot for PvP was terrible, but it still had a much higher percentage of participation by the general public then Raiding, even on PvE servers.  There are still active twink guilds for AB and WSG in all brackets.  If PvP truly were a headache niche, why are all of the new MMORPGs coming out including a fairly major PvP component?

The same reason they have Hit Point bars that are red, use "Diku" mechanics and have some stupid implementation of "I go invisible in a field! hur hur!"

The folks I know who PVP'd prior to BC did it for two reasons.  1) Boredom 2) To show how uber they were with the title system.  There was PVP avilable prior to the titles/ honor being introduced, but nobody on the PvE servers did it.  As SOON as that switch was flipped it was the SS/ TM boogie for hours on end.

It's also no coincidence that the PvE Grand Marshalls/ High Warlords on my server don't PvP anymore.  There's nothing in it for them now.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 08:36:13 AM
Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

Indeed.  I'm somewhat surprised the website is so anti PvP.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 08:44:40 AM
Loot? Fuck that noise. And I wholeheartedly agree with Schild. I've always been of the opinion that the hardcore MMO pvpers are the people that couldn't cut it in FPSes.

Eh ? You are wrong on so many levels that the amount of wrong is deeper than Dante's inferno. Hardcore MMO pvpers at its roots were roleplayers, tabletop players, card players and people who found it far more fun to challenge other likeminded nerds than playing versus "dungeonmasters". FPSers are players who mostly the concept of pray and spray to be fun. And think it involves some sort of skill. Here is a recipe to be a good FPS gamer : Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot. To be a skilled MMO player you need lots and lots of time, micromanagement, full knowledge of all game mechanics, classes / talent speccs, predetermination, reflexes, timing full control and overview over the battle and your co players and lots of other shit I shouldnt have to mention. Then comes the loot, gear and other factors. And as always some luck due to game mechanics parry / resist / block functionality.

In an MMO a skilled player can take out multiple equal opponents just for being a superior player. That my friend takes that list and puts it to a real fucking challenge. Show me the depth of an FPS that does something like this :

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/download.php?id=39506&mirror=2 [EDIT: And this is just WoW, the game that takes "least" amount of skill compared to other PvP games]

Also, most hardcore MMO PvPers think that FPS games has zero depth and individuality about them. Everyone are the same, there is no way to advance your character nor feel like it is a personal character. We are a legion of roleplayers on a perpetual acid trip.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 08:45:50 AM
There's a difference between anti-pvp and pro-fun. I really hate that I read and post in a shitload of threads and end up repeating shit in most of them because X person didn't read X thread.

In short, getting caught up in PVP that is unplanned is for an FPS. Maybe building a city that can't be attacked and then going to an area dedicated to PVP itself is more fun to people. And by people, I mean everyone that doesn't look back at UO and say "Man, those were good times. /sniff /cry /retread /whimper" But hey, I'm up for yet another person using WoW as an example of how PVP has gone mainstream. let's do that that again. It's just one of those things that holds so much water I never get tired of it.


Quote
FPSers are players who mostly the concept of pray and spray to be fun. And think it involves some sort of skill. Here is a recipe to be a good FPS gamer : Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot. To be a skilled MMO player you need lots and lots of time, micromanagement, full knowledge of all game mechanics, classes / talent speccs, predetermination, reflexes, timing full control and overview over the battle and your co players and lots of other shit I shouldnt have to mention. Then comes the loot, gear and other factors. And as always some luck due to game mechanics parry / resist / block functionality.

I don't even know why I respond to trollbait from Slayerik and slog (when it might not even be trollbait) when we have our very own live deluded PVP retard over here making my points for me.

Photek. You're being a retard. Pray and spray. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahohohohohohoh hahaaahahaahahaahaa. Oh man. That's good. Did you learn that term from your days back in Compton while sporting a gun... sideways? Or maybe you went with the upside down pinky on the trigger. I'm no paragon of FPS games man, but that is just stupid. Also, you're delusional. Here's something I've had to say far too often lately: Get the fuck out of here with that shit. FoH is ---------------------> thataway.

Quote
Also, most hardcore MMO PvPers think that FPS games has zero depth and individuality about them.
And once again, no one gives a fuck about what hardcore MMOG PvPers think. More importantly, those that for whatever reason have deluded themselves into listening to the loudest minority need to get with the program. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. Etc. Etc.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 17, 2008, 08:53:09 AM
Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

Indeed.  I'm somewhat surprised the website is so anti PvP.

It's not.  Some of us just see PvP in DIKU settings as both pointless and non-competitive.  If I want PVP I play FPS' or shit like Magic/ RTS games where the amount of time I spend on my ass grinding gear doesn't automatically determine 90% of the outcomes.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 17, 2008, 08:54:41 AM
Ok, so you've narrowed down what many would define as skill to, "Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot."

So there's no skill involved, eh?

I could say the same about your definition of a an MMO pvper. The only skill you've listed there, really, is the ability to read. And as to your point about individuality, there's about as much individuality to a flavor-of-the-month, min-maxing, "I built this toon to pwn" MMO player as there is to the goober goth kids sitting at the mall in their slightly different Hot Topic outfits.

Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

Pot. Kettle. Generalization.

That said, I'm not anti-pvp. I just don't think it's the end-all-be-all of MMOs you frothy kill-em-alltards think it is.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 08:56:32 AM
Let's be fair Surlyboi, given the content of most PVP-Player's posts on the (any) official forums, "reading" is a pretty hard skill to master.

Also, who the fuck is my mentor?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 08:58:10 AM
Photek. You're being a retard. Pray and spray. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahohohohohohoh hahaaahahaahahaahaa. Oh man. That's good. Did you learn that term from your days back in Compton while sporting a gun... sideways? Or maybe you went with the upside down pinky on the trigger. I'm no paragon of FPS games man, but that is just stupid. Also, you're delusional. Here's something I've had to say far too often lately: Get the fuck out of here with that shit. FoH is ---------------------> thataway.

Okay so I exaggerated with the FPS shit, but still its still a dumb statement to say "PVPers are people who didn't cut it in FPS games". We had no interest in FPS games to begin with, vice versa. In reality both genres are totally different and require different type of skill, some emphasize more than the other. In the end we are all beaten in the depth department by RTS gamers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 17, 2008, 08:59:40 AM
You missed "tons of time invested in gear grinding" as the other skill, Surly.

He even said it

Quote
To be a skilled MMO player you need lots and lots of time,

CATASS2VICTORY!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:00:15 AM
Ok, so you've narrowed down what many would define as skill to, "Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot."

So there's no skill involved, eh?

Of course there is, thats what you playstyle is. Be it the dude who kills 5 people with grenades or the guy who pulls 5 headshots in 2 seconds. Its all different type of skill. I just feel like someone is trying to shove a dildo up my ass everytime they say "MMO takes no skill". I get a bit cranky.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:02:54 AM
There's a reason I included emotionally and then said they could probably acquire the skills by catassing it. But emotionally, PVPers don't have a mindset to be OK with people LITERALLY being better than them.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 09:05:20 AM
Let's be fair Surlyboi, given the content of most PVP-Player's posts on the (any) official forums, "reading" is a pretty hard skill to master.

Also, who the fuck is my mentor?

Sweeping generalization based on message boards that 80% of the players never even register for, never mind read.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 09:06:04 AM
Funny part is everyone that has been trying the FFA PvP servers in AoC go "It's not so bad over here, in fact....it's fun!"

Not my fault you want to remove a fun part of the game, especially since from early on FC explains how it fits in a brutal world. Don't go calling everyone that enjoys it kill-em-tards, they just look for different things from their game.

Some people like that awkward moment when you see a red name...Is he gonna attack? Should I attack first? Should I run? Time to hide? Does he have friends nearby? Is his guild KOS? Fuck it, time to buff and we'll let him make the move.

If that kinda of encounter isn't your thing, than fine. I have been told around here many times some people don't like that kind of tension, and that's fair enough. It sure makes the world seem more alive to me, and so many more random and fun things can happen out of a single gank than an entire night of pure PvE. And yes, skill does matter. Please lets not spell it out again. PVP is here. If you don't like it, don't hop on the server. I think we can at least agree on that one.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:06:23 AM
The 80% that never register or read are not the PVP community. They're the majority. The ones enjoying themselves in the game savoring and lusting for professionally made content. You're absolutely correct.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: KallDrexx on June 17, 2008, 09:07:47 AM
What's the biggest difference between the major FPSs and a pure pvp gametypes in MMOs (minigames/bgs/whatever)?  

Community.  MMOs have a much easier time creating a community and providing the tools to easily play with friends and guilds, and this is going to be something that WAR excells at (depending on the truthfullness of what they've been talking about in regards to guild/community tools).  Persistence also helps give long term goals that are not present in the FPS environment.

Steam Community helps for FPSs, but it is in the disadvantage that it is a generic tool used for many many games.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 09:08:25 AM
Let's be fair Surlyboi, given the content of most PVP-Player's posts on the (any) official forums, "reading" is a pretty hard skill to master.

Also, who the fuck is my mentor?

Schildyboi = Surlyboi

his Mentor = You



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 17, 2008, 09:09:04 AM
The 80% that never register or read are not the PVP community. They're the majority. The ones enjoying themselves in the game savoring and lusting for professionally made content. You're absolutely correct.

To put it more succinctly, that 80% are the people that aren't paying 15 bucks or more a month to be your entertainment.

And please, mentor? I'm probably old enough to be his father.

Luke....


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:10:35 AM
What's the biggest difference between the major FPSs and a pure pvp gametypes in MMOs (minigames/bgs/whatever)?  

Community.  MMOs have a much easier time creating a community and providing the tools to easily play with friends and guilds, and this is going to be something that WAR excells at (depending on the truthfullness of what they've been talking about in regards to guild/community tools).  Persistence also helps give long term goals that are not present in the FPS environment.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is one of the factors I believe is a huge contributor to striving for better achievements ; Competition between people "you know". You know that feeling of beating your buddies in Tekken ? That's the sort of satisfaction MMO PvP provide.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:12:26 AM
Quote
You know that feeling of beating your buddies in Tekken ? That's the sort of satisfaction MMO PvP provide.

I'd walk over to my Egret 2, turn it on and prove you outright wrong. But that would be a waste of time.

Photek, everyone read your utterly ridiculous post about being fed up. You made all the reasons I find PVP-Types absolutely abhorrent perfectly crystal clear for all to see. It's not the same thing. Stop comparing them. It just makes you sound bad at things like FPS titles and now Fighting games.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:18:53 AM
I am bad at fighting games. I am so-so at FPS games though. Cause I spend all my time playing MMOs. Also I was merely making a line between the community factor which is positive and why MMO PvP is fun, I'm sure they do the same in FPS games. Guild vs a rival guild, clans vs a rival clans. MMO communities, PvP or PvE or just the social aspect are in the abstract: LAN-party Light.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: murdoc on June 17, 2008, 09:20:01 AM
When we're done with the PvP/Non-PvP debate, can we also talk about PC vs. Console, or maybe even discuss how the PS3 is overpriced again?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: HAMMER FRENZY on June 17, 2008, 09:20:43 AM
Man the only thing that MMORPG PvP has in common with fighting games is balancing theory and practices. Whooping someones ass in a fighting game has no chance involved in the slightest. The calculations and stats that go into actions in a PVP "match" don't exist in fighting games outside of Guitly Gear random Super effects or Zappa Ghost summons. SO comparing Tekken to PvP is just stupid. I don't have to play this crap to get to that conclusion.

Honestly PVP is the absolute last thing I would play in  an MMORPG if I were to even try to play one, specifically because it is still to some degree crunching numbers rather than basing outcome of my inputs on my execution and timing.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:22:18 AM
I am bad at fighting games. I am so-so at FPS games though. Cause I spend all my time playing MMOs. Also I was merely making a line between the community factor which is positive and why MMO PvP is fun, I'm sure they do the same in FPS games. Guild vs a rival guild, clans vs a rival clans. MMO communities, PvP or PvE or just the social aspect are in the abstract: LAN-party Light.

Don't try to debase my argument by admitting I was right. It's just creepy. Of course you suck at fighting games and FPS titles. YOU WANT TO BE NUMBAH WAN!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:23:16 AM
Nobody suggested anything remotely like that. I was discussing the SOCIAL aspects and playing with people you know. Communities and that stuff.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:26:44 AM
Don't try to debase my argument by admitting I was right. It's just creepy. Of course you suck at fighting games and FPS titles. YOU WANT TO BE NUMBAH WAN!

Thanks for noticing, but I already am. In WoW for now. PvE. And PvP. We will see if AoC is worth it and Warhammer when it time comes. Don't know why it makes me or anyone who play like this an asshole with the exception of sounding so fucking arrogant while saying it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 17, 2008, 09:27:34 AM
When we're done with the PvP/Non-PvP debate, can we also talk about PC vs. Console, or maybe even discuss how the PS3 is overpriced again?

I'd rather talk about how hueg xbawks is.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 17, 2008, 09:29:30 AM
Put my vote in for arguing about abortion, politics, religion in schools, evolution, immigration, or OS/2 vs. Mac.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:30:20 AM
Don't try to debase my argument by admitting I was right. It's just creepy. Of course you suck at fighting games and FPS titles. YOU WANT TO BE NUMBAH WAN!

Thanks for noticing, but I already am. In WoW for now. PvE. And PvP. We will see if AoC is worth it and Warhammer when it time comes. Don't know why it makes me or anyone who play like this an asshole with the exception of sounding so fucking arrogant while saying it.

lol


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 09:30:35 AM
You know there is an MMO that is 99% skill based, and I am being serious here, it is called Subspace.

Go play a few hundred hours of that game and come holler at me about MMOs being skilless :)

You see, it is ok to like different kinds of games and be into FFA PVP/item loot and other crazy wild shit. And its ok to like fighting scripted events. And its possible to like console fighting games, FPSes, and MMOs. WTF are we arguing about now anyways....someone get me back in line I have 3 more hours of work to kill.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: HAMMER FRENZY on June 17, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
Even mentioning the social aspects of PvP vs Fighting games is two completely different animals. Sitting at home and playign this trash over the innertubes is radically different than traveling to play new people or having actual teams that play together WITH each other playign another actual TEAM of players. These are two completely different kinds of competitions with completely different kinds of communities. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:33:39 AM
Subspace is less of an MMOG than Guild Wars.

Oh, it's OK to like whatever you like. But until devs stop being retarded about balances for PVP folks that hurt and change the PVE game, I'm not ok with you loud motherfuckers post-bombing forums with your QQ and nerfwhine. You can "say" PVP-Types adapt. But it's a crock of shit. Like the guy that called me a butthurt assassin in that thread about my patch notes. He knows zero about me, and jumped to that conclusion because I think an archetype based on hiding should be the only archetype with hiding. Color me shocked.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 09:36:17 AM
What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:37:57 AM
What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.

Cause you can't stick it in the pooper in one without it coming out of the mouth through another.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 17, 2008, 09:42:36 AM
What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.
It's fairly difficult to balance both with the same ruleset. Abilities that are entirely appropriate and fun in PvE become incredibly overpowered in PvP but not vice versa. This leads to PvE being repeatedly nerfed to serve PvP, which pisses off PvE players.

The alternative is to give up and have different rulesets for PvE and PvP. Everquest did that, and it worked, but remember that nobody PvP'd in EQ.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 09:46:07 AM
Luckily, it was billed as a PVP game and is a large part of the supposed Endgame....so, sorry PvE guys....


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 17, 2008, 09:48:26 AM
The difference between FPS pvp and MMOG pvp has nothing to do with skill (FPS pvp is mainly a function of map memorization, MMOG pvp is mainly a function of min/maxing).  The real difference is that there is simply no consequences to losing in an FPS.  The worst case scenario in FPS pvp is that you are ridiculed for sucking, and even then it's typically a mouse click away to change your name and "start over".

MMOG pvp typically has more consequences for loss.  Even if there are no in game mechanics for losing, you still have much less anonymity in a mmog, and thus are much more likely to feel long term shame when you suck.

Consequences result in more enjoyment for some, and they also tend to make people who are not risk takers much more adverse to participate.  Thus you have some people, like Slayerik, who enjoy mmog pvp, and you have some people, like schild, who are terrified to engage in mmog pvp.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 09:48:40 AM
What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.
It's fairly difficult to balance both with the same ruleset. Abilities that are entirely appropriate and fun in PvE become incredibly overpowered in PvP but not vice versa. This leads to PvE being repeatedly nerfed to serve PvP, which pisses off PvE players.

The alternative is to give up and have different rulesets for PvE and PvP. Everquest did that, and it worked, but remember that nobody PvP'd in EQ.

Wow tries to handle this by seperate PvP and PvE skill trees that don't overlap.  For the most part it works pretty well.

The other though I had is this: 

If the far majority of people just want PvE and don't want PvP, then where are all the PvE only games in development?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Draegan on June 17, 2008, 09:52:29 AM
I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:52:36 AM

Wow tries to handle this by seperate PvP and PvE skill trees that don't overlap.  For the most part it works pretty well.

The other though I had is this: 

If the far majority of people just want PvE and don't want PvP, then where are all the PvE only games in development?

Non-existent almost. Developers have to feed the crowds with both parts if they want the game to be successful. "If you don't follow WoW's recipe you will fail" seems to be the general assumption.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 09:53:59 AM
I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

Just different kind of people with different opinions. Without arguments and debates, what is the point of a forum ?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: amiable on June 17, 2008, 10:07:00 AM
Subspace is less of an MMOG than Guild Wars.

Oh, it's OK to like whatever you like. But until devs stop being retarded about balances for PVP folks that hurt and change the PVE game, I'm not ok with you loud motherfuckers post-bombing forums with your QQ and nerfwhine. You can "say" PVP-Types adapt. But it's a crock of shit. Like the guy that called me a butthurt assassin in that thread about my patch notes. He knows zero about me, and jumped to that conclusion because I think an archetype based on hiding should be the only archetype with hiding. Color me shocked.

I think I would go along the lines that most official forum posters in general, be they PvE or PvP, are annoying ashats.  Why do folks get so upset about PvP balance changes?  Because 90% of the time PvP is the most fun and entertaining part of the game.  Until PvE moves away from "kill x  foozles and bring me y foozle snouts" it is no wonder that PvPers are the most vocal part of the community.

When catass 40 man guilds were the shiznit in WoW they posted all the time and were annoying as hell too.  But they posted because their portion of the game (Raiding) was at least somewhat interesting (for some, I in general would prefer a sharp stick in my eye).

I mean, how do PvP changes significantly hurt the PvE game?  Do foozles die slower?  Does it make the foozle turn pink?  Does it really matter?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 17, 2008, 10:09:33 AM
I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

Just different kind of people with different opinions. Without arguments and debates, what is the point of a forum ?

Cat pictures.  Which is what im about to unleash on this thread if people dont stop being cockweasels.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 17, 2008, 10:17:55 AM
I think I would go along the lines that most official forum posters in general, be they PvE or PvP, are annoying ashats.  Why do folks get so upset about PvP balance changes?  Because 90% of the time PvP is the most fun and entertaining part of the game.  Until PvE moves away from "kill x  foozles and bring me y foozle snouts" it is no wonder that PvPers are the most vocal part of the community.

When catass 40 man guilds were the shiznit in WoW they posted all the time and were annoying as hell too.  But they posted because their portion of the game (Raiding) was at least somewhat interesting (for some, I in general would prefer a sharp stick in my eye).

I mean, how do PvP changes significantly hurt the PvE game?  Do foozles die slower?  Does it make the foozle turn pink?  Does it really matter?

Problem is, in PVE there are some classes that are on a very delicate balance board in terms of their functionality. If you have followed WoW the last years you would know most changes are a direct reflection of PvP action. Warlock changes, Rogue changes, Druid changes, Shaman changes... Most of them. Problem is when a class functionality is reduced from primary role to secondary role and people start claiming "I didn't roll to do Y, I rolled to do X" or the efficiency of several abilities is reduced that have direct benefits on PvE. One example can be when AoE went from unlimited targets to 10. I still believe they should implement two different "buffs" based on whether you are in a raid dungeon / PvE instance or are PvPing. This simple change could even be visual and appreciated like aura / form / stance / buff and would apply automatically based upon your location. Just doing that, you could have talents like Frostbolt do "25% more damage in PvE stancewhatever, but no slowing effect" to make mages main DPS class for example. Or whatever they wished that was more in line of proper balance.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 17, 2008, 10:24:04 AM
The difference between FPS pvp and MMOG pvp has nothing to do with skill (FPS pvp is mainly a function of map memorization, MMOG pvp is mainly a function of min/maxing).  The real difference is that there is simply no consequences to losing in an FPS.  The worst case scenario in FPS pvp is that you are ridiculed for sucking, and even then it's typically a mouse click away to change your name and "start over".

MMOG pvp typically has more consequences for loss.  Even if there are no in game mechanics for losing, you still have much less anonymity in a mmog, and thus are much more likely to feel long term shame when you suck.

Consequences result in more enjoyment for some, and they also tend to make people who are not risk takers much more adverse to participate.  Thus you have some people, like Slayerik, who enjoy mmog pvp, and you have some people, like schild, who are terrified to engage in mmog pvp.

I would argue that with the current run of FPS games, this is becoming less of the case. A lot of them are incorporating RPG like elements in the form of unlocks and ranks, And then there is planetside.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 17, 2008, 10:30:17 AM
I would argue that with the current run of FPS games, this is becoming less of the case.

But that's a recent development (like within the last yearish).  And it's certainly nothing like the investment that you have in a mmog.

And I also suspect that it's a development that will both turn people like schild away from fps games and increase the number of players playing fps games at the same time. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 10:45:33 AM
Adding RPG elements in terms of unlocks only makes me play FPS titles more. ^_^


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 17, 2008, 10:50:57 AM
And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>

He's in a minority of the people that you are friends with (who co-incidentally tend to have the same preferences as you which is why you are friends with them), for WoW players in general (or pretty much any AAA MMO you care to mention) he's in the middle of the bell curve.

Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 17, 2008, 10:52:23 AM
I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

Just different kind of people with different opinions. Without arguments and debates, what is the point of a forum ?

Cat pictures.  Which is what im about to unleash on this thread if people dont stop being cockweasels.

Bring it, bitch.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Sir T on June 17, 2008, 11:06:05 AM
Easy kids. I have naked pics of David Hasselhoff with puppies and I'm not afraid to use them.

(Now thats PVP with consequences  :grin:)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 17, 2008, 11:12:08 AM
Adding RPG elements in terms of unlocks only makes me play FPS titles more. ^_^

See schild, you aren't as much of a pussy as you thought you were.

I just can't wait until you actually try mmog pvp and we have to listen to endless rant after endless rant about how mmog pvp is the GREATEST THING EVAR!!!!.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Kirth on June 17, 2008, 11:15:38 AM
Team Fortress 2? to me it seems more like an FPS thats moving towards mmorpg land. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 11:17:54 AM
I took PVP - ironically - pretty seriously in SWG. Mostly because I ran out of other content. I have no problem with PVP and I look forward to the battlekeep stuff in AoC. I find those terms far more interesting than an unbalanced wild west. Control, sometimes, is good. Actually, in games, most of the time it's good.

Quote
Team Fortress 2? to me it seems more like an FPS thats moving towards mmorpg land.

More like diluted couldn't leave well-enough alone land.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 17, 2008, 12:13:32 PM
And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>

He's in a minority of the people that you are friends with (who co-incidentally tend to have the same preferences as you which is why you are friends with them), for WoW players in general (or pretty much any AAA MMO you care to mention) he's in the middle of the bell curve.

Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.

So you saying that a small minority want PvP only, another small minority want PvE only, and a majority want some mixture of both?

I'll buy that.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 17, 2008, 12:21:02 PM
So you saying that a small minority want PvP only, another small minority want PvE only, and a majority want some mixture of both?

I'll buy that.

Wait, there is middle ground?  NO IT CANNOT BE.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 17, 2008, 12:31:15 PM
Wait, there is middle ground?  NO IT CANNOT BE.

 :mob:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 17, 2008, 01:00:55 PM
And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>

He's in a minority of the people that you are friends with (who co-incidentally tend to have the same preferences as you which is why you are friends with them), for WoW players in general (or pretty much any AAA MMO you care to mention) he's in the middle of the bell curve.

Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.

So you saying that a small minority want PvP only, another small minority want PvE only, and a majority want some mixture of both?

I'll buy that.

That's exactly what I'm saying.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on June 17, 2008, 01:04:42 PM
Doesn't matter if there is a middle ground.  It's a zero-sum game because of the finite developement resourses.  Most people aren't going to get them allocated to their tastes.

Also its not a smooth transition from all pvp to all pve.  Remember all the infighting about Raid vs Solo pve and FFA vs Team vs Sport pvp.  There is no middle ground with that.

Anyway mixing PvP/PvE is still a work in progress.  WAR/AoC are moving us forward. We are still a couple genrations away from the true formula, but the first one to find it and invest AAA money and polish will be the WoW killer.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 17, 2008, 01:13:03 PM
I didn't think this thread could get worse, but fuck me it did. It's almost painful. I had to skip most posts.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Triforcer on June 17, 2008, 01:17:06 PM
And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>

He's in a minority of the people that you are friends with (who co-incidentally tend to have the same preferences as you which is why you are friends with them), for WoW players in general (or pretty much any AAA MMO you care to mention) he's in the middle of the bell curve.

Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.

So you saying that a small minority want PvP only, another small minority want PvE only, and a majority want some mixture of both?

I'll buy that.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

I can't believe how far the conventional wisdom has moved from, let's say, where it was in 2000-2001.  At that point, the high-water mark of PvE ultra-radicalism, PvP was openly mocked and it was conventional SWG pre-beta/EQ forum wisdom that anyone who wanted to PvP had serious psychological problems.  SB was a big revolutionary deal, but now its features are implemented in mainstream MMOs (AoC and WAR, WoW to some extent) with nary a blink.  The Armageddon between PvE and PvP did not come to pass. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 17, 2008, 02:47:23 PM

I can't believe how far the conventional wisdom has moved from, let's say, where it was in 2000-2001.  At that point, the high-water mark of PvE ultra-radicalism, PvP was openly mocked and it was conventional SWG pre-beta/EQ forum wisdom that anyone who wanted to PvP had serious psychological problems.  SB was a big revolutionary deal, but now its features are implemented in mainstream MMOs (AoC and WAR, WoW to some extent) with nary a blink.  The Armageddon between PvE and PvP did not come to pass. 

It changed because PvPers were domesticated. PvP can be a part of mainstream MMOGs if it is consensual, optional, and most importantly meaningless. It must be a sideshow or, at best, a sport. It can never resemble a battle, much less a war. Meaningless because nobody must ever be allowed to experience a negative consequence from PvP. They cannot be allowed to lose anything substantial or denied access to any content of note.  Sure, the winners can get some shinies, but the losers mustn't lose anything and the shinies mustn't be too important (and players with too many shinies mustn't be allowed to play with those who do not). That's WoW PvP, and that's assuredly *not* the kind of PvP being debated back on the "SWG beta" era.  Back then, people were debating Felucca, where a PvP loss meant you lost everything you wore, and Darktide/Zek, where PvP means your team can lock down every valuable zone in the game. Hell, EQI PvE servers arguably had more meaningful PvP than any WoW server.

The lesson of WoW is that most PvPers will obediently report to their designated in-game ghetto if that's the only way they can play a real MMO. Which is something most of us knew back during the "SWG beta" era, because we saw it with Trammel and EverQuest.  AOC hasn't changed anything because it has no meaningful PvP yet. Ditto WAR.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Triforcer on June 17, 2008, 03:41:12 PM
Well, I grant you that that's an accurate description of WoW PvP as it has evolved (although I maintain that pre-arena, pre-BG, pre-BC PvP, where fully HALF the servers had the opportunity for almost as much ganking as pre-Tram UO, didn't lead to the gloom and doom PvEers said it would).

But that's why I am curious about WAR, because its taking a step out of esport.  And most of the good shinies come from PvP.  I think if it breaks a million we'll have some rethinking to do.   


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 17, 2008, 05:10:31 PM
I fairly proud of myself for calling several years ago that sport PVP was a good way to add end-game content with minimal work that players would enjoy.

The mistake is thinking that PVP is the same and appeals to the same crowd, when in fact it appeals to totally different crowds:
People who want a fair fight and a test of skill - competitive gamers.
People who like wild-west style anything goes free-for-alls.

As WOW has moved to more structured PVP it's proven that competitve PVP is a big market. I think the jury is still out on the other form of PVP. It almost has to have meaning, but at the same time meaning = griefing.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 17, 2008, 07:30:33 PM

I can't believe how far the conventional wisdom has moved from, let's say, where it was in 2000-2001.  At that point, the high-water mark of PvE ultra-radicalism, PvP was openly mocked and it was conventional SWG pre-beta/EQ forum wisdom that anyone who wanted to PvP had serious psychological problems.  SB was a big revolutionary deal, but now its features are implemented in mainstream MMOs (AoC and WAR, WoW to some extent) with nary a blink.  The Armageddon between PvE and PvP did not come to pass. 

It changed because PvPers were domesticated. PvP can be a part of mainstream MMOGs if it is consensual, optional, and most importantly meaningless. It must be a sideshow or, at best, a sport. It can never resemble a battle, much less a war. Meaningless because nobody must ever be allowed to experience a negative consequence from PvP. They cannot be allowed to lose anything substantial or denied access to any content of note.  Sure, the winners can get some shinies, but the losers mustn't lose anything and the shinies mustn't be too important (and players with too many shinies mustn't be allowed to play with those who do not). That's WoW PvP, and that's assuredly *not* the kind of PvP being debated back on the "SWG beta" era.  Back then, people were debating Felucca, where a PvP loss meant you lost everything you wore, and Darktide/Zek, where PvP means your team can lock down every valuable zone in the game. Hell, EQI PvE servers arguably had more meaningful PvP than any WoW server.

The lesson of WoW is that most PvPers will obediently report to their designated in-game ghetto if that's the only way they can play a real MMO. Which is something most of us knew back during the "SWG beta" era, because we saw it with Trammel and EverQuest.  AOC hasn't changed anything because it has no meaningful PvP yet. Ditto WAR.

One of the reasons why I love this site is that some guys (myself not included) can rationally weigh some of this shit out. Someday, and yes I have been saying this for years, there will be a game with solid sub numbers that involves full loot, risk, maybe even a skill based system. Someday devs will figure out that there is more to the genre than question marks and quests.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 17, 2008, 08:28:29 PM

I can't believe how far the conventional wisdom has moved from, let's say, where it was in 2000-2001.  At that point, the high-water mark of PvE ultra-radicalism, PvP was openly mocked and it was conventional SWG pre-beta/EQ forum wisdom that anyone who wanted to PvP had serious psychological problems.  SB was a big revolutionary deal, but now its features are implemented in mainstream MMOs (AoC and WAR, WoW to some extent) with nary a blink.  The Armageddon between PvE and PvP did not come to pass. 

It changed because PvPers were domesticated.

It changed because games need to differentiate themselves from WoW. They certainly can't go directly up against WoW. At best they'll leach players based on doing one part of WoW better. That alone isn't enough either because you can't turn on a computer without stumbling across yet-another-fantasy-PvE-diku. PvP's the easy adjacency. And it's still a bit wild west, in that realm of the genre back in the late 90s when you're rewarded for just trying at all. Eventually there'll be a heavily-slanted MMO that gets PvP right just as WoW got PvE right, and there'll need to be something else to explore for competitive advantage.

I doubt it'll be crafting though  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 17, 2008, 09:01:24 PM
Someday, and yes I have been saying this for years, there will be a game with solid sub numbers that involves full loot, risk, maybe even a skill based system. Someday devs will figure out that there is more to the genre than question marks and quests.

There is already more to the genre than question marks and quests. It's just not offering everything to everybody, which is perceived as some kind of flaw.

Sure, 'one day' a pure PvP game with FFA PvP will have a solid sub base. It will come in a time when there are a lot more MMO players so niche titles will have a big enough audience to survive. But 'pure' PvP players will always be in a minority of the overall market too, so it's going to require the market to grow to support that audience.

There's a reason why the new gen MMOs make PvP 'a big part' of the game play during media blitzes, but on launch reveal that 'big part' to be only 30%. Hardcore MMOPvPers tend to always talk about the next big thing and bring a lot of initial hype to a MMO, so are attractive to recruit. After launch, it turns out PvE is better at retaining a greater proportion of players over a longer time period. If WoW was ONLY about PvP, instead of a lot of PvE content before grinding out PvE content in order to keep up with the PvP treadmill, it wouldn't have retained the proportion of players that it did.

Why is that? Because players hate to lose. It was an interesting stat about Fury that if a player won three matches, they generally hung around. The problem was that few players stayed long enough to win three matches - this was for a number of reasons, but I feel a lot of it came back to not being able to win soon enough.

I'm still interested to see if AoC's PvP will actually be half as important to the life of the game as the promotion of it made out. In all reality, it probably won't be.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 17, 2008, 09:19:29 PM
so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.
Helo My name is, my name is slim schild.

Please show us on WoW doll where PvP nerfs touched you.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 17, 2008, 09:39:00 PM
Someone should take UnSubs post above and have it gold plated. Exactly right in every detail.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 17, 2008, 09:44:25 PM
I just want to state again that Schild becoming the new WUA in the eyes of the PVP+ crowd is the funniest thing that has ever happened.  I hope Sinij spends the next 5 years chasing him around with lame-ass "show me on the doll" flames.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 17, 2008, 09:45:46 PM
Well, it just proves that he's a total selective reader. Now excuse me while I go play MGO.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Megrim on June 17, 2008, 11:08:08 PM
And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>
Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.

I hate you so much. Do you know who won the counter-strike?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 18, 2008, 12:12:10 AM
And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>
Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.

I hate you so much. Do you know who won the counter-strike?
The Polish team I think, the two CS guys we brought along to crew the WAR stand were both Polish. They went to watch the finals and came declaring victory at any rate.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Megrim on June 18, 2008, 12:26:28 AM
Cool, ta.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 18, 2008, 12:32:12 AM
Well, it just proves that he's a total selective reader. Now excuse me while I go play MGO.

You do not yet truly understand the (retarded) nature of the beast.  It doesn't matter how much ass you beat in various shooters, no more than it mattered how many guys I fought/killed in UO.  (There is consentual PVP in Trammel, after all.)  It isn't that he doesn't read these things, it's that he doesn't care.  You either love the sort of 24/7 azzrape PVP that only mouth-breathers love, or you are a MEOW WOOF LOL CAREBEAR PUSSY.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 18, 2008, 03:46:42 AM
Sure, 'one day' a pure PvP game with FFA PvP will have a solid sub base. It will come in a time when there are a lot more MMO players so niche titles will have a big enough audience to survive. But 'pure' PvP players will always be in a minority of the overall market too, so it's going to require the market to grow to support that audience.
www.eve-online.com

Sup?  :awesome_for_real:

Also: So, what's Mass Market Again? (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Desperate-for-Subscribers)
Quote
While the videogame media tossed around some big numbers at the AoC launch, including a major figure of 700,000 copies, the actual sales numbers were unknown, as Funcom could not/would not report any details beyond what they had shipped to retailers.   A recent press release, however, has given us more details about what happened to these 700,000 copies of the game.

(http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08253/age_of_fail754.png) (http://xs.to)

That's right, we have a rather unhappy picture as we near the "one month" point for Age of Conan.

* ~40% are still sitting on retailer shelves
* ~30% were bought and returned due to insufficient system reqs
* ~20% were bought and installed but canceled without subscribing
* ~10% were bought and set up a subscription to continue playing

Of the much-hyped 700,000 number, this leaves us with about 70,000 Active Players in the world of Hyboria


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 18, 2008, 03:51:41 AM
Link to the referenced press release, please.  That blog is way too "AOC SUX BLIZZ ROOLS!" for me to take it at face value.  Not that I find the numbers hard to believe.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 18, 2008, 03:55:37 AM
No idea, and it is probably all made up. But the AoC boards are on fire about it, so Funcom pretty much have to put out a subscriptions retained press release sooner or later instead of their handwaving "Boxes shipped" stats.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nerf on June 18, 2008, 04:05:22 AM
You don't find obviously made up and rounded numbers hard to believe? You see "30% bought and RETURNED" and think "yeah, that's totally doable"?

Goddamn, you really are insane.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 18, 2008, 04:07:09 AM
You don't find obviously made up and rounded numbers hard to believe? You see "30% bought and RETURNED" and think "yeah, that's totally doable"?

Goddamn, you really are insane.
and it is probably all made up
Reading comprehension, unfair, etc.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 18, 2008, 04:16:41 AM
Obviously fake. Just google, all the press releases end up on google news for pretty much any product including games. The first hit isn't cancels, it's the boob size nerf. Also for that many copies to be returned, the lines at game stores with people screaming about lawsuits on non-returnable software would be around the block. And relaly, it's not really possible to have cancelled a sub at this point, they have no idea who will renew who has cancelled and who won't.

I'm shocked that there hasn't been a press release ith a 600 or 750k number so they can sneak it in as active subs before the first month is done. If that isn't forthcoming in the next 48 hours, I'll take it as a very bad omen for post-launch sales.

It does seem like a lot of people are leaving though. Most, like myself, very reluctantly.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 18, 2008, 05:53:35 AM
The return percentage, sure, lawl.  But it flopping and ending up with sub-100k users... not entirely unbelievable.  I mean shit, DDO had a huge license and "new" combat, and look where that ended up.  I do hope this forces them to put out some real numbers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 18, 2008, 07:44:45 AM
They shipped 700k boxes and reported 500k actual registered accounts to their investors as of june 2nd. Funcom is public so they cannot lie about those numbners. The "press release" numbers don't add up, and there's no such thing as a secret press release anyway, it's a contradiction in terms. Someone is acting with an agenda, and I have no doubt Funcom will respond.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Bunk on June 18, 2008, 07:49:18 AM



One of the reasons why I love this site is that some guys (myself not included) can rationally weigh some of this shit out. Someday, and yes I have been saying this for years, there will be a game with solid sub numbers that involves full loot, risk, maybe even a skill based system. Someday devs will figure out that there is more to the genre than question marks and quests.


The perfect description of AC Darktide. It did actually work for a while, until the advent of GEAR, map hacks (the system was great when you didn't know where the enemy guild might be hiding), leveling exploits, bots, duping, etc. etc.

It was not open-pvp that killed Darktide, it was all the crap that gets brought along with it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 18, 2008, 08:16:30 AM
It was not open-pvp that killed Darktide, it was all the crap that gets brought along with it.

Some would argue that all that crap is part and parcel of open-pvp and computer games.  Design for it as a dev, or find your players cheating to do it for themselves and creating a hierarchy of "haves" and "have nots." Then you get to spend more time chasing down the hacks and stopping them than you do developing your game.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 18, 2008, 08:58:22 AM
It was not open-pvp that killed Darktide, it was all the crap that gets brought along with it.

Some would argue that all that crap is part and parcel of open-pvp and computer games.  Design for it as a dev, or find your players cheating to do it for themselves and creating a hierarchy of "haves" and "have nots." Then you get to spend more time chasing down the hacks and stopping them than you do developing your game.  :awesome_for_real:

That's funny, I thought players cheated in any game they could...PvP or no. Hell, my friend was guild leader of Bloodsworn (one of the top PvE guilds in WoW) that were carpet banned for cheating in AQ40. PvEers will find ways to cheat to max out fastest.

Eve Online basically proves your theory wrong.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 18, 2008, 09:03:36 AM
Players WILL cheat in any game, true enough. I was just saying that blaming it on "the stuff that comes with it" could also be called "poor planning."

Eve has cheaters.  Macrominers ahoy.  Everything else is available to the players as an in-game tool, handled server-side, or not a feature.  Why risk, say, a location hack when you can scanprobe someone down.  No need for a wall/ clip hack when there's no walls or collision intereference.  Can't exploit XP when advancement is pure time.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Montague on June 18, 2008, 09:11:28 AM
Whoever runs that blog with the fake AOC numbers better have a good attorney.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 18, 2008, 09:17:30 AM
It was not open-pvp that killed Darktide, it was all the crap that gets brought along with it.

Some would argue that all that crap is part and parcel of open-pvp and computer games.  Design for it as a dev, or find your players cheating to do it for themselves and creating a hierarchy of "haves" and "have nots." Then you get to spend more time chasing down the hacks and stopping them than you do developing your game.  :awesome_for_real:

That's funny, I thought players cheated in any game they could...PvP or no. Hell, my friend was guild leader of Bloodsworn (one of the top PvE guilds in WoW) that were carpet banned for cheating in AQ40. PvEers will find ways to cheat to max out fastest.

I think the point is C'thun isn't going to get fed up with wow and quit because some people cheated to gank him, other players however will get sick of peope hacking to kill them VERY quickly


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Montague on June 18, 2008, 10:09:33 AM
WoWRiot dude comes correct.

Oops, my bad (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Poised-to-Dominate-WoW/)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 18, 2008, 10:13:38 AM
So I guess he didn't have an agenda, instead he was posting made-up numbers from an untrustworthy source. I see "game journalism" is alive and well.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 10:15:39 AM
WoWRiot dude comes correct.

Oops, my bad (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Poised-to-Dominate-WoW/)

The internet frightens me.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 18, 2008, 11:13:46 AM
WoWRiot dude comes correct.

Oops, my bad (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Poised-to-Dominate-WoW/)

And again he is dead wrong. Quoting this :

Quote
Age of Conan's Launch Much Smoother Than WoW's

One player offered this particularly telling insight:

"WoW had two hour queues, horrible lag, constant crashing & VERY limited end game content in the beginning"

Sigh. I played WoW closed beta, played the Korean / EU / US beta, played US retail and EU retail. There was never any sort of lag, extremely few crashes, game was stable and ran at high FPS with my mediocre PC back then and the two hours queues are an exaggeration at best. There was queues on high populated realms several months after release during peak hours and that was it.

Not that AoC release was terrible by any means (beta was in many ways), it was far better than any of us would have though, but the turncoating like this makes him look clueless. And AoC still has memory leaks, lots of bugs, feats that don't work, spells that don't scale amongst other things, but it just got released. Why can't people just put the torches down and accept there is room for several MMO's?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 11:27:12 AM
Sigh. I played WoW closed beta, played the Korean / EU / US beta, played US retail and EU retail. There was never any sort of lag, extremely few crashes, game was stable and ran at high FPS with my mediocre PC back then and the two hours queues are an exaggeration at best. There was queues on high populated realms several months after release during peak hours and that was it.

There was loot lag, if that's what he means.  As a Warlock, everytime I killed someone with Soulburn the game would be unplayable for 30 seconds or more.  And that didn't get fixed until right around when TBC was released, so it was a persistant bug that lasted for years.

As far as rubberbanding and other types of lag in WoW, it happened.  It was no better or worse than any other online game, but it certainly wasn't something that didn't exist. 

I think as far as server stability goes, AoC is a better launch than what my server was like at WoW's launch (I've never seen an AoC server crash).  But as far as client stability goes, WoW was better than AoC.  I'd say it's a wash.

EDIT:  I guess my WoW experience is different than most, since I played a Warlock pretty much from release.  I see AoC's classes as unfinished and needing improvement, but I'm used to it.  My experience with WoW at release was that my class was completely unfinished and needed improvement.  Hell, WoW Warlocks just before TBC was released vs WoW Warlocks at release were entirely different beasts.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Montague on June 18, 2008, 11:42:04 AM
WoWRiot dude comes correct.

Oops, my bad (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Poised-to-Dominate-WoW/)

And again he is dead wrong. Quoting this :

Quote
Age of Conan's Launch Much Smoother Than WoW's

One player offered this particularly telling insight:

"WoW had two hour queues, horrible lag, constant crashing & VERY limited end game content in the beginning"

Sigh. I played WoW closed beta, played the Korean / EU / US beta, played US retail and EU retail. There was never any sort of lag, extremely few crashes, game was stable and ran at high FPS with my mediocre PC back then and the two hours queues are an exaggeration at best. There was queues on high populated realms several months after release during peak hours and that was it.

Not that AoC release was terrible by any means (beta was in many ways), it was far better than any of us would have though, but the turncoating like this makes him look clueless. And AoC still has memory leaks, lots of bugs, feats that don't work, spells that don't scale amongst other things, but it just got released. Why can't people just put the torches down and accept there is room for several MMO's?

WoW experience at release was time and server dependent it seems. Cenarion Circle did well enough at non-peak times, but I remember a two-three week stretch where logging in at peak time was painful thanks to queues and server lag. I also remember there was a certain cluster of servers that routinely crashed and was often down for maintenance for the first few months, but the names escape me. The problems WoW had in the beginning were generally network and server related - the code itself was pretty solid as far as showstopping bugs went.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 11:56:24 AM
The problems WoW had in the beginning were generally network and server related - the code itself was pretty solid as far as showstopping bugs went.

Either way, WoW's launch wasn't nearly the rosy picture that is being painted.  I know on my server we were having lag that would make the game literally unplayable at peak all the way until late 2006. 

I'm not saying that WoW was a worse (or better) release than AoC, but to say:

Quote
Sigh. I played WoW closed beta, played the Korean / EU / US beta, played US retail and EU retail. There was never any sort of lag, extremely few crashes,

Is extremely misleading and, well, downright wrong.  I can remember dozens of raids that ended because either the game was unplayable due to lag, or worse, because the server crashed after a boss died and we lost the loot.  And my guild was WAY behind the curve in raiding, so that means it was well after release (we were a pvp guild for the longest time, we didn't start raiding until late 2005 at the very earliest).

EDIT:  And as far as "code" stability goes, there were weeks where my server crashed at least once per night.  I mean at least one server (not client) crash per night for 3-4 weeks in a row.  I hardly call that stable code.  At least, if I checked in that "stable" code here at my job I'd be in deep shit.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lightstalker on June 18, 2008, 11:57:53 AM
Sigh. I played WoW closed beta, played the Korean / EU / US beta, played US retail and EU retail. There was never any sort of lag, extremely few crashes, game was stable and ran at high FPS with my mediocre PC back then and the two hours queues are an exaggeration at best. There was queues on high populated realms several months after release during peak hours and that was it.

  • In the month of release there certainly were +2 hour queues on popular servers, and a wild influx of new servers in an attempt to mitigate the crushing load of popularity.  Frostwolf, by no means the heaviest load server at release, had 45 min to 2 hour peak queues depending on the day but that only tells part of the story as the login server would drop your client and you'd kick back to the end of the queue - if you even bothered to requeue.  Queues really didn't clear out for us until February, others were queuing until much later.
  • The login, world, and instance servers frequently went down at release preventing players from getting into the game or locking those out (or apart from their guildmates) once in - again, this sorted out once the crushing load of popularity was spread out.
  • Some new instances and raid sizes/compositions can create unplayably low FPS or even unloadable situations for machines that have otherwise performed admirably with WoW for the last 3 years.
  • Loot lag persists today.
  • WoW still CTDs and throws unhandled exceptions with each new patch cycle - on the release servers.
  • Just last month we watched a guild mate log in all his characters and get three of them stuck joining the instance server for steamvaults.  He took a screenshot of the three characters 'running' next to each other...

Yes the game is generally reliable for most users in common scenarios but it doesn't take much (any) poking to find defects today, much less at release when they would stab you in the eye.

Maybe I just missed the green in the above post and have fallen into the Chasm of Xar.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 18, 2008, 12:18:15 PM
The problems WoW had in the beginning were generally network and server related - the code itself was pretty solid as far as showstopping bugs went.

Either way, WoW's launch wasn't nearly the rosy picture that is being painted.  I know on my server we were having lag that would make the game literally unplayable at peak all the way until late 2006. 

I'm not saying that WoW was a worse (or better) release than AoC, but to say:

Quote
Sigh. I played WoW closed beta, played the Korean / EU / US beta, played US retail and EU retail. There was never any sort of lag, extremely few crashes,

Is extremely misleading and, well, downright wrong.  I can remember dozens of raids that ended because either the game was unplayable due to lag, or worse, because the server crashed after a boss died and we lost the loot.  And my guild was WAY behind the curve in raiding, so that means it was well after release (we were a pvp guild for the longest time, we didn't start raiding until late 2005 at the very earliest).

EDIT:  And as far as "code" stability goes, there were weeks where my server crashed at least once per night.  I mean at least one server (not client) crash per night for 3-4 weeks in a row.  I hardly call that stable code.  At least, if I checked in that "stable" code here at my job I'd be in deep shit.

Of course it is an individual experience, however I can confirm some of your points that several of my raiders had. We started raiding once Molten Core was out basically and most of the problems with World of Warcraft lag were related with the providers / ISP. In Europe, Telia has been a major factor for the lag caused to many EU players, Slovenians had major issues with lag due to their ISP (can't recall the name), British players on another ISP had problems with disconnecting randomly, Norwegians had lag issues and timeouts due to Telenor. That was not World of Warcrafts fault. Those people represented about 10% of my guild and it was always the same crowd and other players from the same zones that had the same issues.

Late 2005, heh.. No wonder you lagged. That was when Blackwing Lair was released, every guild and their grandmothers were in Blackrock Mountain. There was pathways of corpses from the flightpaths to Blackrock and inside Blackrock you could easily find thousands of players. Some to raid, some to engage in PvP, at this point, yes servers went unstable for a small period as expected. Another points when servers were laggy was during our 400-500 man raids (Yes 400-500 players) from city to city, but Blizzard sorted this out one patch later (around Tarren Mill / South Shore times servers were rock solid, only issues you could have was some lag issues).

In AoC a mediumsized raid on the Battlekeep and a player with top notch PC had 2-3FPS. Memoryleaks are all over the place, crashes to desktop, alt+tabbing is not doable while loading and causes graphical glitches and errors amongst other things. Sure servers are stable, but there is still lots of downtime and on EU release the servers weren't even up. We even had to plea to get new servers, they didnt have plans on putting up new PvP RELEASE servers on release and wanted us to roll on the early access realms until they were full. And how many people are on each server ? Very few compared to what was on WoW.

Lightstalker : Individuall experiences affecting 0,5% of the mass compared to issues that affect 90% of the playerbase cannot be compared. Be realistic.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 12:26:12 PM
Of course it is an individual experience, however I can confirm some of your points that several of my raiders had. We started raiding once Molten Core was out basically and most of the problems with World of Warcraft lag were related with the providers / ISP. In Europe, Telia has been a major factor for the lag caused to many EU players, Slovenians had major issues with lag due to their ISP (can't recall the name), British players on another ISP had problems with disconnecting randomly, Norwegians had lag issues and timeouts due to Telenor. That was not World of Warcrafts fault. Those people represented about 10% of my guild and it was always the same crowd and other players from the same zones that had the same issues.

Late 2005, heh.. No wonder you lagged. That was when Blackwing Lair was released, every guild and their grandmothers were in Blackrock Mountain. There was pathways of corpses from the flightpaths to Blackrock and inside Blackrock you could easily find thousands of players. Some to raid, some to engage in PvP, at this point, yes servers went unstable for a small period as expected. Another points when servers were laggy was during our 400-500 man raids (Yes 400-500 players) from city to city, but Blizzard sorted this out one patch later (around Tarren Mill / South Shore times servers were rock solid, only issues you could have was some lag issues).

In AoC a mediumsized raid on the Battlekeep and a player with top notch PC had 2-3FPS. Memoryleaks are all over the place, crashes to desktop, alt+tabbing is not doable while loading and causes graphical glitches and errors amongst other things. Sure servers are stable, but there is still lots of downtime and on EU release the servers weren't even up. We even had to plea to get new servers, they didnt have plans on putting up new PvP RELEASE servers on release and wanted us to roll on the early access realms until they were full. And how many people are on each server ? Very few compared to what was on WoW.

Lightstalker : Individuall experiences affecting 0,5% of the mass compared to issues that affect 90% of the playerbase cannot be compared. Be realistic.

I'm sorry, I thought you were living in reality.  I didn't mean to intrude upon your fantasy, carry on.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 18, 2008, 12:37:26 PM
I'm sorry, I thought you were living in reality.  I didn't mean to intrude upon your fantasy, carry on.

Please elaborate, that has no context whatsoever with what I said. I merely reflected on personal experience and I played the three most populated realms at that time. Also note, I played dominantly on EU realms, say about 99% of the time after summer 2005. I'll put it short in case I was misunderstood: Several of the errors written here that occurred in World of Warcraft were either players PC / hardware, ISP or third party (antivirus, firewalls, bad drivers) related. It had the general bugs and server downtime at several times during the summer of 2005 due to many factors, raid and honor system introduction being one massive factor. Age of Conan bugs are caused by the Age of Conan client and bad coding.

The server downtime / auth server downtime was due to mass population, not due to generally unstable servers. Also WoW was Blizzards first MMO. They went from Battle.net to MMO. Funcom had, as they claim, tons of experiences learned from Anarchy Online.

EDIT : Of course WoW has some flaws and bugs still in it, but they are so minor and rare that they affect a very small audience and are / should be harder to generally spot compared to mass errors that is directly in the client of AoC.

EDIT2: Like the AoC bug that probably half of the melee population does 25% less damage than the counterpart. Yes, the female bug, been in since beta. How long would this last in WoW ? The nerdrage on forums would spawn a hotfix on the fly.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 18, 2008, 12:44:24 PM
My game is better than your game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lac on June 18, 2008, 12:44:36 PM
Quote
Warcraft lag were related with the providers / ISP. In Europe
Very true. We often had all the Turks or Swedes disconnect at the same time.
That doesn't change the fact that the servers would 'desync' now and again for hours at a time. You had people stuck on zeps, raid bosses moving at half speed (awesome for progression), all the looting horror, invisible mobs, bugged ore deposits, disconnects while zoning, insanely lagged instances, the freakshow of AQ bugged bugs....
Ah, the good times.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 12:45:24 PM
Please elaborate, that has no context whatsoever with what I said. I merely reflected on personal experience and I played the three most populated realms at that time.

Okay, I said "the servers crashed" you responded "sure some people had bad isps, sucks to be them."  I'm talking about server crashes, literally every single person on the server being logged off.  You know, server crashes.  Not ISP issues.

Then, in your scary schizophrenic post, you quickly switch too "ohh, besides it's unfair to judge Blizzard during that time frame, it's when they were releasing stuff."  Without even remotely seeing the irony of your position.

But lastly, you're just flat out lying.  There were clear issues with WoW and lag and server stability.  If you are going to lie and claim there were no issues, there just isn't much I can do to help you.

Let me put it this way, you'd look at me funny if I suddenly said "AoC doesn't have a single FPS issue, there is no memory leak, and it currently has 2 million subscribers, so there".  Yet somehow I'm supposed to retort against your lies about WoW and pretend they have some basis in reality.  If we are just going to lie to make our positions stronger, there isn't much I can do.

WoW's release simply is not the rosy picture you are painting.  AoC is no better, but certainly WoW just isn't what you claim it to be.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 18, 2008, 12:52:21 PM
My game is better than your game.

I'm not defending one or the other more than it deserves, I'm subscribing to both. I got three active WoW subscriptions and two in AoC. I'm just sharing my personal experience from the realms I have played, and they are many. And hours invested are shameful to elaborate. Yes of course WoW had server issues, but you seem to misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm saying this : Its different having an unstable server with 25.000 players and a 3000 player one and the majority of the problems were caused by ISP's which Blizzard can't change on the fly.

Quote
But lastly, you're just flat out lying.  There were clear issues with WoW and lag and server stability. If you are going to lie and claim there were no issues, there just isn't much I can do to help you.

No, I am not.  You are misinformed and spend too much time reading WoW forums and biased if you believe that. There was issues with HIGH populated realms at certain times and server instability, but they were ironed out. Again back to my point, there is a huge difference with issues that affects a minority for a small period of your playerbase versus the majority for extended periods without feedback.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 18, 2008, 01:01:10 PM
My comment was only about what this thread has come down too.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 18, 2008, 01:03:01 PM
My comment was only about what this thread has come down too.

This thread got out of hand looong time ago  :awesome_for_real: I predict next page will be about NGE.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Brogarn on June 18, 2008, 01:06:48 PM
I don't think you're lying, photek, I think you've glossed over your memory. WoW's release was no better than AoC's. Different bits of instability and issues, but definitely equal at the very least.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 18, 2008, 01:12:51 PM
I don't think you're lying, photek, I think you've glossed over your memory. WoW's release was no better than AoC's. Different bits of instability and issues, but definitely equal at the very least.

EU release was very smooth. That was Feb 2005 so they had a few months since US late 2004 release to polish. I still recall a few US server issues, but they occurred when masses started streaming to the same servers and when people started seeing WoW for what it was. Right now the AoC servers are stable, but how many players are playing on each server ? I am level 66 with my Tempest and I have played ONE total minigame of Capture the Skull since level 19. And I'm queued most of the time. Its 10-15 players searching and always "8 matching your search". If AoC pulls of some miracle and acquires a few million players, then we can make fair server vs server compare. However in terms of bugs and issues AoC is the king of the hill by a longshot currently.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: veredus on June 18, 2008, 01:19:55 PM
Completely random question. But how the hell do you queue up for the pvp minigames anyway? Never seen anything on how to do it in game and kinda figured at 26 i just hadn't gotten to that stuff yet.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 18, 2008, 01:20:04 PM
Cevik, did you start on Mal'Ganis or one of the other dozen or so insanely overcrowed launch servers by any chance?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 18, 2008, 01:20:53 PM
Awesome article!  :awesome_for_real:

Quote
Age of Conan Sells Like Hotcakes Around the World

Noteworthy, but other games have taken the shiny spot and then faded off the radar.

Quote
Untapped Markets: Much More Room To Grow: Asian Market, XBOX360 Market

But will the asian and X360 markets take to AoC? Or play their existing types of games?(Korean grindups, console shmups) Time will tell.

Quote
Gamers Upgrading Their Computers

Not something to bank on IMO. Users will eventually be forced to upgrade, (system requirements for OSes, the latest Flash Player XXVII doesn't run under Windows XP, etc...) but the majority of them (the non-hardcore gamers) do it reluctantly and slowly. And not for a single 50 dollar game that they may or may not like.

tl;dr. Let me know when AoC gets to about 5 million subs. Then I'll consider it to be a potential WoW buster.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 18, 2008, 01:21:39 PM
Completely random question. But how the hell do you queue up for the pvp minigames anyway? Never seen anything on how to do it in game and kinda figured at 26 i just hadn't gotten to that stuff yet.
One of the circles in the upper left opens a window with a PvP tab in which you queue up.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 01:26:35 PM
No, I am not.  You are misinformed and spend too much time reading WoW forums and biased if you believe that.

I'm talking about personal experience, not reading Forums.  Don't get me wrong, I was a happy (if somewhat bored) customer at Blizzard, but you are just wrong, WoW had it's fair share of issues.

Simond, I played on Llane.  Which in no way is a high population server.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 18, 2008, 01:26:58 PM
Hmm. I don't remember any real issues with WOW other than server queues (and occasional crashes while they tried to figure out what queue was what I'm guessing). It wasn't like I didn't look or even pray for them. I hated WOW in beta and still think EQ2 at any point in time was a better game than WoW at any point in time. But the problems just weren't there.

I'm not saying that there wasn't a small percentage of people having AOC-esque problems in WOW, but I'm unconvinced that there is a small percentage of people experiencing a WOW-ish smooth ride in AOC.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 18, 2008, 01:30:09 PM
Simond, I played on Llane.  Which in no way is a high population server.
OK, fair enough. It's just that I've heard from more than one person who complained about bad server performance in WoW at launch then followed up with "I was on Mal'ganis" when questioned.  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 01:32:33 PM
I'm not saying that there wasn't a small percentage of people having AOC-esque problems in WOW, but I'm unconvinced that there is a small percentage of people experiencing a WOW-ish smooth ride in AOC.

My guild made a series of videos of us running around in full raids as naked gnomes on various PvP servers.  Each one of those videos were made because either our server crashed as we were part way through clearing out a raid dungeon or because lag was rendering raiding on our server unplayable.

Again, I'm not talking about a couple of people having problems, I'm talking about everyone I knew, from a variety of raiding and pvp guilds, all of them, every single person, having lag issues or being kicked off the (obviously crashed) server.

And Llane was far from the worst server.  In fact, Llane was a pretty stable server compared to some.

EDIT:  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying WoW was a trainwreck of a release like AO or WWIIOL or, well for the most part, every other MMOG release I've ever been in.  I'm just saying that WoW did have it's share of issues, and I'm shocked to see the revisionist history here.

EDIT2:  I'm pretty certain I posted at least one of the naked gnome videos here.  Though I am unable to find the link at the moment.

EDIT3:  One last thing, my guild's very first raid was in ZG, so it must have been early 2006 when we started raiding, well after the release of BWL, iirc.  We moved from ZG to MC and beyond.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 18, 2008, 01:47:19 PM
At launch Alleria had a few server crashes, usually just Eastern kingdoms(which still happens).  However, we had TONS of loot lag, and those gimpy mining nodes that forced you to logout to get out of the "looting" position.   None of it was enough to stop anyone playing more than 3-5 minutes, however.  The game certainly wasn't perfect, and the majority of problems were traced to: "Oh, we thought we could have servers share databases.  Silly us there's a shitload more querys than we originally planned for."  It took them about a month and a half to get Alleria working properly, and some servers, like TIchondrius, never did until some heavy hardware upgrades were made.

The complaints being lodged against AoC seem to be of the "hay we can't do core portions of the game because, y'know, FPS sux."  You know, like Shadowbane.  What remains to be seen is if Funcom can fix it/ pull it out of it's hat.  It's certainly not any worse than WoW was (based on anecdotes, not personal experience.) but it DOES pose a bit of a bigger problem as it's not an 'inconvenience' but a question of properly working core mechanics.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 01:50:30 PM
The complaints being lodged against AoC seem to be of the "hay we can't do core portions of the game because, y'know, FPS sux."  You know, like Shadowbane. 

Anyone who would compare AoC's launch to Shadowbane is just trolling.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: veredus on June 18, 2008, 01:53:12 PM
Completely random question. But how the hell do you queue up for the pvp minigames anyway? Never seen anything on how to do it in game and kinda figured at 26 i just hadn't gotten to that stuff yet.
One of the circles in the upper left opens a window with a PvP tab in which you queue up.

Ahh no kidding. Thanks.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on June 18, 2008, 02:02:45 PM
Are their people playing it? Is it any good?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 18, 2008, 03:02:45 PM
The complaints being lodged against AoC seem to be of the "hay we can't do core portions of the game because, y'know, FPS sux."  You know, like Shadowbane. 

Anyone who would compare AoC's launch to Shadowbane is just trolling.

 :oh_i_see:  Turn down the Fanboism, Cevik.  It's not a "zomg aoc=shadowbane" it's a "Hey, we've seen what happens when core shit doesn't work."  Would you prefer Vanguard? Matrix?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 18, 2008, 03:30:52 PM
Jeez, this guy may be off his bi-polar meds. (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Poised-to-Dominate-WoW/)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Samwise on June 18, 2008, 03:34:35 PM
When did Geldon get a new blog?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 18, 2008, 03:48:31 PM
Jeez, this guy may be off his bi-polar meds. (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Epidemic-Obesity/Age-of-Conan-Poised-to-Dominate-WoW/)

first off, how the hell can aoc run on an xbox? secondly aoc is not going to break 1mil.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on June 18, 2008, 03:51:19 PM
Doesn't publishing a game on a console require you to actually finish making it?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 18, 2008, 03:54:12 PM
Doesn't publishing a game on a console require you to actually finish making it?

Nope. Not even remotely a prerequisite anymore. There are buggy GBA games for christsake. And I don't mean Mario style wallhack bugs.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 04:18:21 PM
:oh_i_see:  Turn down the Fanboism, Cevik.  It's not a "zomg aoc=shadowbane" it's a "Hey, we've seen what happens when core shit doesn't work."  Would you prefer Vanguard? Matrix?

Man, all I said was that AoC isn't nearly as bad at launch as Shadowbane was.  I'm not saying AoC is good, I'm just saying it doesn't compete with Shadowbane on buggy code.

I hardly see where I'm an AoC fanboi.

EDIT:  While I have run into bugs in AoC, I have yet to find a case where "core shit doesn't work".  I play every night, I have a framerate between 20 on the low end and 150+ on the high end.  I haven't run into any bugs that have stopped me from progressing.  I have run into plenty of bugs, there are parts of the game that are clearly unfinished, and my class feels like it was thrown together by two monkeys who were high on pcp.  You know, the standard shit you fight through on a game release.  It's at least on par, if not better, than DAoC's release.  Not the best release I've seen, but comparing it to Shadowbane is just silly.  I didn't play Vangaurd or Matrix Online, so I don't know about either of those.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Register on June 18, 2008, 04:37:44 PM
:oh_i_see:  Turn down the Fanboism, Cevik.  It's not a "zomg aoc=shadowbane" it's a "Hey, we've seen what happens when core shit doesn't work."  Would you prefer Vanguard? Matrix?

Man, all I said was that AoC isn't nearly as bad at launch as Shadowbane was.  I'm not saying AoC is good, I'm just saying it doesn't compete with Shadowbane on buggy code.

I hardly see where I'm an AoC fanboi.

EDIT:  While I have run into bugs in AoC, I have yet to find a case where "core shit doesn't work".  I play every night, I have a framerate between 20 on the low end and 150+ on the high end.  I haven't run into any bugs that have stopped me from progressing.  I have run into plenty of bugs, there are parts of the game that are clearly unfinished, and my class feels like it was thrown together by two monkeys who were high on pcp.  You know, the standard shit you fight through on a game release.  It's at least on par, if not better, than DAoC's release.  Not the best release I've seen, but comparing it to Shadowbane is just silly.  I didn't play Vangaurd or Matrix Online, so I don't know about either of those.

Could "Core shit doesn't work" refer to the state of crafting, non-implementation of features like auction houses, itemization and tool tips to clarify the increment value of stats/abilities?

 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 18, 2008, 04:40:17 PM
Quote
Could "Core shit doesn't work" refer to the state of crafting, non-implementation of features like auction houses, itemization and tool tips to clarify the increment value of stats/abilities?

Not anymore, now that they've totally catered to the gnashing and wailing of PVP on the forums. All that stuff is very much secondary, obviously.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 18, 2008, 04:43:31 PM

Could "Core shit doesn't work" refer to the state of crafting, non-implementation of features like auction houses, itemization and tool tips to clarify the increment value of stats/abilities?

 

Basically the same things that were all broken in DAoC on release, which is why I compared the two. ;)  Only in DAoC I constantly fell through the world and died everytime I ran through a city.  Which is why I said "if not better" because I've yet to fall through the ground in AoC.

It hardly approaches the list of shit that didn't work Shadowbane.

EDIT:  Ohh yeah, and I forgot, in DAoC the only way to get a decent framerate in the cities was to zoom in on the ground.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 18, 2008, 04:47:49 PM
Link to the referenced press release, please.  That blog is way too "AOC SUX BLIZZ ROOLS!" for me to take it at face value.  Not that I find the numbers hard to believe.

The post says "according to a recent press release" but then in the comments the guy says he has "inside info."

Um...yeah...


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 18, 2008, 04:49:28 PM
Stop reading sites with, somehow, less credibility than Kotaku.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 18, 2008, 05:25:45 PM
I seem to remember everyone getting about 3 weeks extention to their first month in WoW due to the server issues. I personaly remember many crashes, loot issues, and server queues. I could probably check my account history...

21 free days up to the start of April. So I'm going to conclude that significant server issues lasted up to that point.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 18, 2008, 06:00:02 PM
AoC will never come anywhere remotely near approaching WoW. They had a strong launch with ~500k accounts; it remains to be seen how that number grows. I could see them picking up another couple hundred thousand from the 360 version at most. That's not piddly-shit, those are fantastic numbers, but a WoW-killer? Nah.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 18, 2008, 08:33:37 PM
Quote
Could "Core shit doesn't work" refer to the state of crafting, non-implementation of features like auction houses, itemization and tool tips to clarify the increment value of stats/abilities?

Not anymore, now that they've totally catered to the gnashing and wailing of PVP on the forums. All that stuff is very much secondary, obviously.

Makes sense when that's how they promoted the game. I think I remember WoW AHs having some issues at launch, hell they weren't even connected between the towns. Itemization was way better for sure though, and obviously crafting...but who gives a shit about crafting :)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 18, 2008, 08:41:02 PM
WoW didn't launch with 10 million players - it grew that over time. One big question is whether or not Asia (you know, that big homogenous continent) will take to AoC like it took to WoW. Will AoC be allowed to enter China? If it does, AoC could see a huge player number boost.

Not that I think AoC will be the WoW killer, but I think too many people are discounting its potential for growth  :awesome_for_real: assuming  :awesome_for_real: bug fixes and content releases come out quick enough.

I loved that WoW Riot turn around - "OMG AoC is DOOOOOMED!" to "OMG AoC will DOMINATE!". Seriously, there's no coming back from that.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 18, 2008, 09:12:54 PM
Oh I'm well aware of that. I just think WoW is a far, far better game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Phred on June 19, 2008, 01:48:02 AM
[ I think I remember WoW AHs having some issues at launch, hell they weren't even connected between the towns.

WoW ah's were connected together in beta so it's unlikely any server launched with them still not connected. They were already connected in open beta when I played.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: EvilJohn on June 19, 2008, 02:56:44 AM
[preface] I played WoW quite a bit over the course of the first 24 months. Enjoyed it, and moved on. I am playing Conan now, very sporadically.

The blog poster (besides all the other complaints listed) is missing the point. There are two significant (if not dominant factors) to why AoC does NOT have the growth potential or success potential of WoW without a minor miracle.

A) WoW has grown the initial market for any MMOs after it. The reference to WoW releasing 280-300k in both initial territories is a complete misunderstanding of why Conan was able to release 700k... its because there were significantly more potential adopters out there... educated on MMOs rather than it being their first. Honestly, I'd be curious to see how many AoC players have not played ANY previous MMO... compared to WoW with a similar statistic.

So no... it doesn't mean what this blogger implies, and his whole list of references and conclusions come across incredibly amateurish.

B) AoC is still well within its honeymoon period for the average, non-cantankerous (read no one posting/reading a forum such as this  :awesome_for_real:) player. Even the people being critical of WoW's initial launch are likely still rose-colored to some extent over their recollections.

AoC is fun, I enjoy it, but I just can't fathom it cresting 1mil PAID subscribers ever, and likely not being able to retain over 500k (and I think I am being generous). That isn't a slam at all at the potential of AoC, but potential means peanuts when the end result is out there and being played.

Even Hellgate had potential... (yeah I went there)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 19, 2008, 03:04:30 AM
I think it says a lot about what kind of monstrous phenomenon WoW was when so many people DIDN'T cancel despite having to wait 2-4 hours before logging in due to queues. That was if you didn't get a random disconnect, which meant you were done for the day. And that lasted for months and months...

Since then I've become totally uninterested in bug whining. If you are having fun with a game, you could endure kicks in the nuts as part of the subscription. If you are not, or not so much, you pay attention to everything that doesn't work well enough.
Most of the times it's not you are not having fun BECAUSE of what isn't working as intended, more like you get pissed and pay attention to what is not working as intended BECAUSE you are not having fun.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 19, 2008, 03:10:13 AM
Could "Core shit doesn't work" refer to the state of crafting, non-implementation of features like auction houses, itemization and tool tips to clarify the increment value of stats/abilities?

It could, if that's what you're playing it for.  I've always seen AoC as a pvp-centered game though, not a pve one.  That shit, apparently, doesn't work as advertised.  Read the thread waylander linked.  Plenty of PvPers already bitching about stuff.  THAT needs to get fixed.  Not to mention finding some way of taking part in a mere 48 vs 48 siege that doesn't sieze-up midline-spec machines while crippling high-end machines with <9 fps.

 All that's before the other shit outlined in the various threads. Hell, even Hoax said that the mechanics are shit and need fixing. http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13522.msg466199#msg466199


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 04:39:52 AM
[ I think I remember WoW AHs having some issues at launch, hell they weren't even connected between the towns.

WoW ah's were connected together in beta so it's unlikely any server launched with them still not connected. They were already connected in open beta when I played.

What "connected"? There was IF, Ogr and Ratchet. And those aren't connected to each other (Ratchet just allows both sides to post). All of the AH outpost like SW and Darn came much later.

Otherwise, WoW was a good launch for about 50% of the players. It was fantastic in November. By January though, anyone on the East Coast U.S. was under crushing lag and anyone on the West Coast watched the Eastern Kingdoms lands crash pretty much weekly. I have no idea what the story was in EU. We were all convinced this was because the database wasn't being cleared until Tuesday maintenance, and ours was getting more filled up because we didn't have the valley of activity other areas of the world did (because Pacific/Mountain was also where Australians were told to play).

Edit: Oh and on that stupid "press release" and chart, we already ripped into Gutboy for posting that noise in the AoC sub-forum. Right away you know it's fake just from looking at the even spread of numbers. It's crap.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Modern Angel on June 19, 2008, 05:02:55 AM
Not only crap but two days ago he was slamming the game and said it only had 70k players in total.

Moreover, that site is the worst MMO site which people cite as serious I've ever seen. It is the high holy temple of the mouthbreathing caricature we have of WoW players, a blasphemous union of 4chan non-funny and specious 'facts'; for Christ's sake, they were featuring a video where one WoW player punched another WoW player because the punchee wouldn't say the words 'Archiminde rules'. It's populated by cartoons.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 05:23:07 AM
[ I think I remember WoW AHs having some issues at launch, hell they weren't even connected between the towns.

WoW ah's were connected together in beta so it's unlikely any server launched with them still not connected. They were already connected in open beta when I played.



WoW also printed free money on my printer during beta, got me a new girlfriend, and it handed out free blowjobs like candy.  AND ANYONE WHO DENIES THESE ABSOLUTE FACTS IS AN AOC FANBOI!1!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on June 19, 2008, 05:44:59 AM
Oh I'm well aware of that. I just think WoW is a far, far better game.

Well, that's where you'd be wrong.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 19, 2008, 06:17:18 AM
How come this is sticky now?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 19, 2008, 06:28:35 AM
Because Sticky is right below the forum button on my monitor. So when browsing, I by mistake hit it. A LOT.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 19, 2008, 06:57:49 AM
Because Sticky is right below the forum button on my monitor. So when browsing, I by mistake hit it. A LOT.

Get a new monitor.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 07:09:57 AM
AoC is fun, I enjoy it, but I just can't fathom it cresting 1mil PAID subscribers ever, and likely not being able to retain over 500k (and I think I am being generous). That isn't a slam at all at the potential of AoC, but potential means peanuts when the end result is out there and being played.

Serious question time:  Have we ever seen a mmog that didn't continue to grow for at least a short while after it's first 30 days?

I see what I believe are some serious misconceptions around here as people seem to be under the impression that a vast majority, or even a sizable minority, of the players picked up the game on the first day, installed it and created an account on that day.  I suspect nothing could be further from the truth on a mmog launch.

Those numbers trickle in over the course of the first month, thus there will not be a cataclysmic event at the end of the first 30 days where suddenly the servers are empty due to all the cancellations.  There will always been a slow burn of outgoing customers and a slow stream of incoming customers.  The real question is will the incoming stream match or beat the outgoing?  I think it's easy to beat the churn rate for the first few months, not everyone sits on message boards all day lying about how wonderful WoW's release is, and thus not everyone is clued into the meme of the week when it comes to the latest mmog.

I suspect there are at least a couple of months of growth for AoC no matter what the press is, the real question is what happens after that.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 19, 2008, 07:22:15 AM
I have noticed less people from my guild logging on, personally.

I'm not predicting server merges next week or anything, but there are some spots in the game that leveling is a real grind. Address that and getting endgame PVP implementation. While doing that, make the assassin not suck. Late spring/Early summer isn't exactly the best time to launch, though before WotLK and WAR was probably a good move. Should be interesting to see how the subs pan out to say the least, luckily it doesn't really bother me either way...I'm having fun.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 19, 2008, 07:33:58 AM
The amount of churn with people resubscribing will be interesting for AoC.  The game is really only half finished, you do have to grind out levels and a lot of people won't do that again.  I think for the most part people had fun though and will come back when they add in more content, then more will come back when they write the endgame.

I really wish we had server population numbers because I would find the difference in retention between the early access servers and the launch day servers fascinating.  Since they didn't launch with all the servers at the same time virtually everyone who was eager enough to pre-order are sitting on the same servers while the servers opened up on launch itself would contain people who bought later.  You have to imagine that since the vast majority of the organized guilds are sitting on the early access servers that the other ones will have more people drop out.  I'd also love to know what the difference is in number of max level chars, bosses killed, cities built, minigames played etc.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2008, 07:35:18 AM
I have noticed less people from my guild logging on, personally.

I'm not predicting server merges next week or anything, but there are some spots in the game that leveling is a real grind. Address that and getting endgame PVP implementation. While doing that, make the assassin not suck. Late spring/Early summer isn't exactly the best time to launch, though before WotLK and WAR was probably a good move. Should be interesting to see how the subs pan out to say the least, luckily it doesn't really bother me either way...I'm having fun.

Everyone i brought to the guild, has ALTS.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 19, 2008, 08:02:45 AM
I really don't see a problem with grinding as long as its fast paced.  You can't compare six hours of single pulling mobs to gain one bar of exp if you are lucky in EQ to mass killing in atzels fortress for 2 levels in thirty mins, one is grinding the other is just leveling.  To me the only benefit of questing was if it increased the rate of leveling, and quest rewards.  I wouldn't want to grind the whole 80 levels but the mass slaughter that passes for grinding in aoc is still fun.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2008, 08:05:03 AM
Quote
Could "Core shit doesn't work" refer to the state of crafting, non-implementation of features like auction houses, itemization and tool tips to clarify the increment value of stats/abilities?

Not anymore, now that they've totally catered to the gnashing and wailing of PVP on the forums. All that stuff is very much secondary, obviously.

schild, the majority of AOC players are on PvP servers.

Quote
Did you know that the majority of Age of Conan players is playing on servers flagged for player vs. player activities? We do, and this month we are about to introduce a slew of drastic improvements that will breathe new life into this important gameplay feature!

Link (http://community.ageofconan.com/wsp/conan/frontend.cgi?func=publish.show&table=CONTENT&func_id=2535&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=online&utm_campaign=Clan_of_Conan&utm_content=issue17)

And Link (http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/06/17/the-necessity-of-pvp/)

Not saying that PvE or rather across game system should be ignored, and i don't think they are. Its not like development can't happen at the same time.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 19, 2008, 08:14:11 AM
I have noticed less people from my guild logging on, personally.

I'm not predicting server merges next week or anything, but there are some spots in the game that leveling is a real grind. Address that and getting endgame PVP implementation. While doing that, make the assassin not suck. Late spring/Early summer isn't exactly the best time to launch, though before WotLK and WAR was probably a good move. Should be interesting to see how the subs pan out to say the least, luckily it doesn't really bother me either way...I'm having fun.

Everyone i brought to the guild, has ALTS.

Oh, thats cool ... but not just you guys... I have some RL friends that haven't logged on in a week. A guildie that realized his 3 month old kid should come first, other assorted peeps. Just noticing less players in general currently.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 08:27:07 AM
Oh, thats cool ... but not just you guys... I have some RL friends that haven't logged on in a week. A guildie that realized his 3 month old kid should come first, other assorted peeps. Just noticing less players in general currently.

I hesitate to say anything, out of fear of being accused of being an AoC fanboi again, but I suspect that there may be bubbles of intense play as people initially pick up the game, followed by a ramping down time as players even out to more realistic for their lifestyle play times.   It's not necessarily an indication of  overall number of subscriptions.

I may be wrong, I'm not sitting server side on any of the major mmogs and I just don't have their tool sets to play with.  But it's just a sneaking suspicion I have.

Again I must point out that I do not believe that AoC is God's gift to gaming, I just suspect there is a little naivety around here from some of the posters.  Not you Slayerik, but some.

And take everything that I'm saying with the realization that I fully believe there is at least a 50% chance of AoC failing and dropping to fewer than 10k subs in the next 6 months.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nija on June 19, 2008, 08:35:56 AM
PVP game or not, the "core shit" not working is what totally turned me away from the game. There were just too many things that should work, outright - with no questions asked - that didn't function at all.

I'm trying out sport PVP now. I quit wow before it really went in, and  :nda: finally has enough people so you can get a feel for how it works.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 19, 2008, 08:43:52 AM
And take everything that I'm saying with the realization that I fully believe there is at least a 50% chance of AoC failing and dropping to fewer than 10k subs in the next 6 months.

At the risk of sounding like an AoC fanboi myself, I will say that to me there is almost no way that this game doesn't retain 10% of its subs after 6 months. With a million sold, thats about 100k subs...That is if 9 out of 10 players just quit. I could see half or even 2/3s leaving if they don't get their shit together, but 1/10 will forget to cancel the sub FFS :) Would be interesting to see numbers on a game like shadowbane...how many initial boxes sold...and how many after 6 months were subbed....

It is too pretty, too fun at the base level, and it is dare I say casual friendly....to a point.



And Nija, you punk, you always get into the betas.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on June 19, 2008, 08:58:09 AM
I hesitate to say anything, out of fear of being accused of being an AoC fanboi again, but I suspect that there may be bubbles of intense play as people initially pick up the game, followed by a ramping down time as players even out to more realistic for their lifestyle play times.   It's not necessarily an indication of  overall number of subscriptions.

I may be wrong, I'm not sitting server side on any of the major mmogs and I just don't have their tool sets to play with.  But it's just a sneaking suspicion I have.
There you go letting reality cloud your vision.

Quote
And take everything that I'm saying with the realization that I fully believe there is at least a 50% chance of AoC failing and dropping to fewer than 10k subs in the next 6 months.
Much better.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 09:38:20 AM
I think AoC's initial bubble came from a dry spell of new MMO launches, the M-rating, and a slight departure on combat. It will shed players though, as it is a system hog, the grind does set in, and there's not enough stuff in there beyond watching your back while questing. There have been a few MMOs that shed more players than they attracted, whether for first-day nerfs (PS) or crazy grinds (CoH).

I am loving it at the moment. Not a day goes by I don't see some insane vista or hear some new track. I think I disparaged the aesthetic because I was sick of Tortage. The engine really starts to kick in around Conach's. Tarantia is cool and all but I've seen cities before :-) The combat for me isn't wholly different as much as it's a different flavor. And I like the fact that other players could jump me with my back turned. So far I've been able to hold my own. And when I haven't, well, I had to turn in a few quests anyway  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 10:12:07 AM

At the risk of sounding like an AoC fanboi myself, I will say that to me there is almost no way that this game doesn't retain 10% of its subs after 6 months. With a million sold, thats about 100k subs...That is if 9 out of 10 players just quit. I could see half or even 2/3s leaving if they don't get their shit together, but 1/10 will forget to cancel the sub FFS :) Would be interesting to see numbers on a game like shadowbane...how many initial boxes sold...and how many after 6 months were subbed....

It is too pretty, too fun at the base level, and it is dare I say casual friendly....to a point.

Just for the record, I was engaging in hyperbole because if you don't engage in hyperbole in this thread, you are accused of being an AoC fanboi.  ;)

What I really mean is, I see there is the opportunity for AoC to die the death of Vanguard and Matrix Online and a host of other mmogs, and to be honest I'm not really willing to predict which way it will go.  My main complaint with the thread so far has honestly been the bizarre revisionism that is saying WoW launched without lag.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on June 19, 2008, 10:19:56 AM
I think a lot of the people on this board rolled on Earthen Ring together and that server was one of the ones that didn't have any problems.  The only thing I remember bothering me was that bug which kept you stuck in looting.

I like AoC and will not be cancelling but the game really does have a Vanguard/Matrix/Gods&Heroes imminent failure feel about it.  Their stock price got gutted due to the delay and if they can't keep enough players I can easily see the investors telling them to fold everything up.

I wonder if it would be added to SOE's all access pass...


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 10:20:11 AM
There have been a few MMOs that shed more players than they attracted, whether for first-day nerfs (PS) or crazy grinds (CoH).

Of course, nearly all mmogs either have, or eventually will, shed more players than they attracted.  I'm saying I don't think it's ever really happened in the first 3 months of a mmog, i.e. some amount of growth occurs, almost by default, in the first few months.

AoC may well be the first time we have an initial high during the "free trial" period (which I don't understand how the first month of play can both cost us $50 *and* be free at the same time, but I digress), and sheds players starting at the end of the first 30 days, but it would be an industry first.  Thus I'm simply saying "don't get your hopes up for a collapse of epic proportions at 30 days plus one, because it doesn't typically work like that".


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 10:27:54 AM
I think a lot of the people on this board rolled on Earthen Ring together and that server was one of the ones that didn't have any problems.  The only thing I remember bothering me was that bug which kept you stuck in looting.

And perhaps I had a worst time than most, because as a Warlock that bug that kept you stuck in looting was a game killer.  Every single mob, or more importantly for me, player you killed returned a soul shard (when you used your finishing move, soul burn, which ate a soul shard and then returned it to you if the person died).  Which means nearly every battle I engaged in would result in lag.  And the lag would occur on the first thing that died, so if I was fighting more than one mob or player it would be guaranteed death.

Now that wasn't even remotely close to the only issue I had with WoW at launch, but it was a doosy.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 19, 2008, 10:32:59 AM
There have been a few MMOs that shed more players than they attracted, whether for first-day nerfs (PS) or crazy grinds (CoH).

Of course, nearly all mmogs either have, or eventually will, shed more players than they attracted.  I'm saying I don't think it's ever really happened in the first 3 months of a mmog, i.e. some amount of growth occurs, almost by default, in the first few months.

No, that's what he's saying. That COH and PS both shed folks after the first month without attracting a greater # into the game and growing its base.   I thought CoH had SOME growth prior to "the dropoff" but it wasn't too long after launch that it did drop to about where it is now.

Just for the record, I was engaging in hyperbole because if you don't engage in hyperbole in this thread, you are accused of being an AoC fanboi.  ;)

And if you don't think AoC is ZOMG the best pvp evar and point out "hey, shit's broken" you're a carebear and a hater.  If not a WoW fanboi.  See, works both ways. Stop being a twat.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 10:40:11 AM
And if you don't think AoC is ZOMG the best pvp evar and point out "hey, shit's broken" you're a carebear and a hater.  If not a WoW fanboi.  See, works both ways. Stop being a twat.

Find the post where I've said anyone is a carebear, a hater, or a WoW fanboi and quote it.  For bonus points, find a post where I've said AoC is the best pvp game evar, or where I've even said it was good.

Just for posterity, I'll go ahead and quote you saying that I'm a fanboi:

Quote
Turn down the Fanboism, Cevik.

I'll stop being a twat right after you do.

Quote
No, that's what he's saying. That COH and PS both shed folks after the first month without attracting a greater # into the game and growing its base.   I thought CoH had SOME growth prior to "the dropoff" but it wasn't too long after launch that it did drop to about where it is now.

And my point was that the numbers I've seen show both of those titles increasing in players for the first 2-3 months, then starting a dropoff.  Which is what I keep saying above, I think that there is almost a given for an increase in numbers, no matter how poor the title, for the first few months.  So in 3 days when the "first 30 days ends zomg zomg zomg" and the numbers don't come collapsing down, I hope that neither side takes it as evidence that they are right.  It will take a little bit of time, not much, but at least a little bit.

EDIT:  Just for confirmation I made my way over to more dubious places on the internets, and as worthless as those dubious places are, they show both Planetside and City of Heros reporting an increase of subscribers for over 3 months before the first dropoff.  Again, it's dubious numbers so take it for what it's worth, but like I said above, those of you closely following the numbers probably shouldn't panic if Funcom announces growth in the next month.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 12:03:08 PM
Bah, just say it. MMOGchart isn't the paragon of accuracy businesses want to make real development/budget/business decisions on. But it's good enough for no-accountability interwebs conversation, at least for the games for which there were press releases.

CoX went up for the first three months and then did nothing but fall off. You sorta get those first few months "for free" though as a publisher because that's generally just sell-through from the initial launch stock. Most people don't by non-recognizable MMOs on the very first day they launch. Even WoW took a month to hit 1mil+ I think.

PS looks to be total guesswork. They pissed off so many testers though with their launch-day XP nerf that I wouldn't be surprised if they never had as many subscribers as they had testers.

VG is probably the same. MxO too. AC2 definitely. I would bet the same for most MMOs that launched since WoW too. Initial rush to buy simply because a) players missed an open beta if there was one; or, b) because it's new at all. But once they spend a few weeks realizing just how not WoWpolishedcompleted it is, they trundle back to WoW.

Will any game have "fallen" as far as AoC could fall? We'll know in a few months :-)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 12:04:49 PM
For what it's worth:

AoC is the still the best-selling US PC Game (http://aoc.curse.com/articles/details/10929/)

My personal belief is that this will play into the whole "the world isn't going to end tomorrow, but it could end in 3 months or so" statements above.  Feel free to tell me why the US PC Games statistics are worthless or unreliable.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
You sorta get those first few months "for free" though as a publisher because that's generally just sell-through from the initial launch stock.

Which is what I said above, if not word for word, then damn close to it.

Those who are predicting the sky will fall on day 30 are probably going to be wrong, you get some "free" time.  When the sky doesn't fall it isn't going to be an indication of success, again because you get some "free" time.

Quote
PS looks to be total guesswork. They pissed off so many testers though with their launch-day XP nerf that I wouldn't be surprised if they never had as many subscribers as they had testers.

VG is probably the same. MxO too. AC2 definitely.

And by every bit of data we have available, it appears AoC has well surpassed it's testers numbers with actual subscribers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Draegan on June 19, 2008, 12:22:29 PM
For what it's worth:

AoC is the still the best-selling US PC Game (http://aoc.curse.com/articles/details/10929/)

My personal belief is that this will play into the whole "the world isn't going to end tomorrow, but it could end in 3 months or so" statements above.  Feel free to tell me why the US PC Games statistics are worthless or unreliable.

I never got the Sims at all.

I just have to laugh at this,
Quote
6. The Sims 2 Kitchen & Bath Interior Design Stuff Expansion Pack


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 19, 2008, 12:25:46 PM
I never got the Sims at all.

I just have to laugh at this,
Quote
6. The Sims 2 Kitchen & Bath Interior Design Stuff Expansion Pack

The Sims and WoW have the same base for their success. The Sims tops the PC charts because EA managed to sell a PC game to people who weren't PC gamers. WoW has ten million+ subs because Blizzard managed to sell an MMO to people who weren't MMO gamers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Draegan on June 19, 2008, 12:36:38 PM
I technically understand why people play the Sims.  I understand why people play it, and I understand why those people get addicted to it, technically.

I just can't personally get it.  I know this makes no sense but, meh.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 12:40:44 PM
WoW is also successful because of the weight of its success. If they only sold that game in the U.S., they'd be lucky to be bragging about 1mil at this point. It's why doing a direct subscription comparison sometimes should be restricted to similar territories.

Quote from: cevik
Which is what I said above, if not word for word, then damn close to it.
This thread's been all over the place. Sorry I missed that part of what you were saying :-) I agree. I don't think AoC is only going to do well because the first month is free. Heck, they'll continue to do good on the backs of people who forgot to cancel before the first bill was posted alone  :grin: So between sell-through of stock and lazy credit card owners, any game could probably grow in the first two or three months.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 12:49:20 PM
So between sell-through of stock and lazy credit card owners, any game could probably grow in the first two or three months.

Right, which is why I said:

Quote
Serious question time:  Have we ever seen a mmog that didn't continue to grow for at least a short while after it's first 30 days?

I see what I believe are some serious misconceptions around here as people seem to be under the impression that a vast majority, or even a sizable minority, of the players picked up the game on the first day, installed it and created an account on that day.  I suspect nothing could be further from the truth on a mmog launch.

Those numbers trickle in over the course of the first month, thus there will not be a cataclysmic event at the end of the first 30 days where suddenly the servers are empty due to all the cancellations.  There will always been a slow burn of outgoing customers and a slow stream of incoming customers.  The real question is will the incoming stream match or beat the outgoing?  I think it's easy to beat the churn rate for the first few months, not everyone sits on message boards all day lying about how wonderful WoW's release is, and thus not everyone is clued into the meme of the week when it comes to the latest mmog.

I suspect there are at least a couple of months of growth for AoC no matter what the press is, the real question is what happens after that.

On the previous page.  I am honestly curious, has any game ever not increased for at least a couple of months?  Without counting the testers not converting on PS, Vangaurd and MXO (which obviously doesn't apply here) I think every game has grown for a small bit of time.

I just fear some people have their expectations set that the entire thing is going to massively collapse at 30 days plus one.  Which I think is a rather unrealistic and naive expectation.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2008, 12:58:30 PM
I technically understand why people play the Sims.  I understand why people play it, and I understand why those people get addicted to it, technically.

I just can't personally get it.  I know this makes no sense but, meh.

Building a fence around your sim so they cant leave the one square block after building a relationship with your hot neighbor that is now just outside of his reach and who is making out with a what might be and underage girl, all while your sim is hungry, sad, and standing in his own pee?

Whats not to like?

 :drill:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 01:03:52 PM
Building a fence around your sim so they cant leave the one square block after building a relationship with your hot neighbor that is now just outside of his reach and who is making out with a what might be and underage girl, all while your sim is hungry, sad, and standing in his own pee?

Whats not to like?

 :drill:

This and turning my female sims into lesbians is the sum total of all my sims experience.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 19, 2008, 01:30:21 PM
    *  1. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures
    * 2. Mass Effect
    * 3. Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures
    * 4. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe
    * 5. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest
    * 6. The Sims 2 Kitchen & Bath Interior Design Stuff Expansion Pack
    * 7. World Of Warcraft
    * 8. BioShock
    * 9. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade Expansion Pack
    * 10. The Sims 2 FreeTime Expansion Pack

All this graph tell me is two things.

One, unless your pc game is on the shelf at walmart it ain't selling shit.

Two, wow is fucking ridiculous...three different version of their game in the top ten still? but again it's a marketing thing. Boxes on shelves where most people can see them i think is the key here. 



I don't think you can gauge aoc though from box sales, it's a game with punishing, punishing system reqs and like it or not it's getting bad word of mouth.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 19, 2008, 01:31:54 PM
    *  1. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures
    * 2. Mass Effect
    * 3. Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures
    * 4. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe
    * 5. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest
    * 6. The Sims 2 Kitchen & Bath Interior Design Stuff Expansion Pack
    * 7. World Of Warcraft
    * 8. BioShock
    * 9. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade Expansion Pack
    * 10. The Sims 2 FreeTime Expansion Pack

All this graph tell me is two things.

One, unless your pc game is on the shelf at walmart it ain't selling shit.

Two, wow is fucking ridiculous...three different version of their game in the top ten still? but again it's a marketing thing. Boxes on shelves where most people can see them i think is the key here. 



I don't think you can gauge aoc though from box sales, it's a game with punishing, punishing system reqs and like it or not it's getting bad word of mouth.

I thought wal mart didnt sell mature games.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 19, 2008, 01:35:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wymadClIHuo&feature=related


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 19, 2008, 01:40:53 PM
Even AO and WW2O (the last games that sold well but only retained a minority of the players) took about 6 months to really implode.  If the game is good enough to drive sell-through, it will take a while for other problems to bring it down.

--Dave


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on June 19, 2008, 01:45:40 PM
Serious question time:  Have we ever seen a mmog that didn't continue to grow for at least a short while after it's first 30 days?
Fury?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 01:50:38 PM
Serious question time:  Have we ever seen a mmog that didn't continue to grow for at least a short while after it's first 30 days?
Fury?

You may have me there, did we ever get any data from Fury ever?


Title: Rehttp://forums.f13.net/i: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 03:21:40 PM
I am honestly curious, has any game ever not increased for at least a couple of months? 
There have been a few MMOs that shed more players than they attracted, whether for first-day nerfs (PS) or crazy grinds (CoH).

(just kidding  :grin: )

I understand why you discount MxO and VG; however, if there was any way to substantiate the numbers, I have the feeling those would be the examples. Given the beta testers that didn't convert to a purchase, there's probably also the pre-order folks who couldn't cancel and who didn't convert to the first month billing period.

But that's really just guessing. The only game that appears to have actually fallen off is AC2, but the source is suspect.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 19, 2008, 03:27:10 PM
It would truly be an amazing feat of mathematics for a game to suck so bad that it somehow lost more players than it attracted.


Title: Re: Rehttp://forums.f13.net/i: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 19, 2008, 03:34:18 PM
I am honestly curious, has any game ever not increased for at least a couple of months? 
There have been a few MMOs that shed more players than they attracted, whether for first-day nerfs (PS) or crazy grinds (CoH).

(just kidding  :grin: )

I understand why you discount MxO and VG; however, if there was any way to substantiate the numbers, I have the feeling those would be the examples. Given the beta testers that didn't convert to a purchase, there's probably also the pre-order folks who couldn't cancel and who didn't convert to the first month billing period.

But that's really just guessing. The only game that appears to have actually fallen off is AC2, but the source is suspect.
I think beta to pre-order conversions, especially if there's a special deal, can give you a good idea.  DAoC, two thirds of the beta accounts signed up for the special 6 month rate before launch day.  Since some amount probably kept on after launch but didn't want to sign up for 6 months, that tracks well with the 75% conversion we saw.  On the other hand, AC2's nearly 1M beta players did not convert to boxes sold (I don't know if they had an offer going that would have let them see that coming).  So if your beta players don't want to convert, your initial sales probably won't either.

There's probably a way you could poll your beta players for that, and you can probably see a lot of it from the rate at which beta accounts churn (DAoC, for example, had more than 4/5th's of beta accounts in active use in the last month).  If accounts are staying active and you're not having to churn huge numbers through to keep a testing base like AC2, you're probably in good shape.

--Dave


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 19, 2008, 03:52:27 PM
It would truly be an amazing feat of mathematics for a game to suck so bad that it somehow lost more players than it attracted.

We were clearly talking about losing more players than it attracted in any finite measurement of time, i.e. in any given week gaining X new players and losing Y current subscribers.  If X is less than Y your mmog is currently shrinking.

If it never happens then your mmog will continue to grow for forever and no mmog will ever die.

Though I suspect you were being pedantic just to be a jerk, in which case, carry on. ;)

EDIT:  And of course Darniaq is talking about that finite amount of time being the first month, so that at the end of the first month you've already declined beyond the high that you set in the first month.

EDIT2:  And Darniaq, I still disagree, CoH and PS both grew for several months at least according to available data.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 19, 2008, 03:54:02 PM
i bought my copy of aoc at walmart.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on June 19, 2008, 04:05:07 PM
We were clearly talking about losing more players than it attracted in any finite measurement of time, i.e. in any given week gaining X new players and losing Y current subscribers.  If X is less than Y your mmog is currently shrinking.

If it never happens then your mmog will continue to grow for forever and no mmog will ever die.

Though I suspect you were being pedantic just to be a jerk, in which case, carry on. ;)

Pretty much, yeah.  I was just kiddin'.  I was mostly just amused by my own failure to immediately recognize it as an obviously true statement, which I then decided to share with the internets in sarcasm form.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on June 19, 2008, 05:06:36 PM
CoX went up for the first three months and then did nothing but fall off.
Nope. CoX hit it's peak in terms of subscribers in December 2005, more than a year and a half after the launch of the game. It got a big jump from the release of CoV on Halloween 2005 and it continued to stay above it's June 2004 numbers through most of 2006.

(http://pandadesigns.com/f13/CoH_chart_200803.jpg)

Edit: numbers are from NCsoft's own earning reports


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 05:19:25 PM
Quote from: cevik
EDIT2:  And Darniaq, I still disagree, CoH and PS both grew for several months at least according to available data.
I know, I was being snarky. Since it took me a page to fully understand the question you originally asked, I thought it'd be funny to give you the exact same response I gave on the prior page that started us down this path.

But having to describe it removes what little humor there was  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 19, 2008, 05:23:33 PM
A lot of other factors from the rest of the market are going to feed into that, as well.  UO kept growing for years, simply because there was no practical alternative, so did EQ.  Much of WoW's sustained success in the western markets may simply have been that there was no really competitive alternative released until AoC.

--Dave


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on June 19, 2008, 05:24:37 PM
EQ II :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 19, 2008, 05:26:18 PM
EQ2 predated WoW.

Ok, so by just three weeks or so, but still :wink:

Also, LoTRO was seen as competition at the time. Not a very strong one, but there it is.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 19, 2008, 05:39:29 PM
EQ2 got released right into the teeth of WoW, and it probably would have done a lot better if WoW had slipped another 6 months.  LotRO was *hoped* to be competitive, but had the exact same problem as AC2: Lots of people came into the beta, didn't really like it, and left.  There was plenty of interest, it just didn't deliver.  It's still possible that AoC could go the same route, but remember that the majority of posting about *any* game right after it comes out is always "This sucks", those that don't think it sucks are too busy playing.  So widespread bitching is not neccessarily a sign of potential failure.  As we saw with AC2/LotRO, the death knell for a game is not always screams of outrage, but silence, because nobody cares enough to bitch.

--Dave


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 19, 2008, 06:44:07 PM
Lets just ignore GW, LotRO, DDO, EQ2, Lineage, Tabula Rasa, et cetera if they don't fit into our original argument eh Mahrin?

If WoW slipped another 6 months it really wouldn't make much of a difference.

Quote
Much of WoW's sustained success in the western markets may simply have been that there was no really competitive alternative released until AoC.

There still isn't any competitive alternative. This is because of what WoW is and what the other games aren't, not because of when any of them were released.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 19, 2008, 07:03:57 PM
Lets just ignore GW, LotRO, DDO, EQ2, Lineage, Tabula Rasa, et cetera if they don't fit into our original argument eh Mahrin?
DDO, like LotRO but without even the initial interest.  Tabula Rasa, don't get me started.  GW, a totally different business model, and the exception that proves the rule (GW is the shining star that is keeping NCSoft America from being closed).  And what game does it have more in common with, WoW, or AoC?  As for Lineage (I assume you mean L2)....  keke la, no, don't think so.

Let the numbers come in.  I see nothing that would give good grounds to an assumption it's going to implode.  Beat WoW on numbers, no, not that either.  But it could take over the market growth for a while.

--Dave


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 19, 2008, 07:21:07 PM
Actually I meant Vanguard (which is still ", no" heh), dunno how I messed that up.

On what grounds are you saying AoC is more like WoW than the rest? This is the bit that I think you missing. AoC being "reasonably competitive" to WoW where the others were not. I don't see justification for it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 19, 2008, 07:25:39 PM
There still isn't any competitive alternative. This is because of what WoW is and what the other games aren't, not because of when any of them were released.

The problem for Wow is a lot of people are seeing it for what it really is now. I'll be the first to say that I was hooked for about a year and a half, but the rep grinds, raid grinds, PVP sport grinds just became too much. Then I see all these guys tht have run Kara a million times...you have to think some of them are figuring it out. So...lets upgrade X piece so I can kill Y boss. Then we all have to upgrade to Y loot so we can kill Z boss. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam. It's awesome what it did for the genre (fresh blood), but people are burning out. They also will take breaks now, especially the ones that had their lvl 60 epics shat on with the BC expansion last time.

Wow isn't going anywhere, but the numbers will fade. It's an MMO afterall.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 19, 2008, 07:26:30 PM
Actually I meant Vanguard (which is still ", no" heh), dunno how I messed that up.

On what grounds are you saying AoC is more like WoW than the rest? This is the bit that I think you missing. AoC being "reasonably compatitive" to WoW where the others were not. I don't see justification for it.

Any of the others sell a million boxes at launch? I know, I know...that doesn't equal subs. But it has to be the biggest launch since....well, fucking Wow.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: pants on June 19, 2008, 07:36:37 PM
On what grounds are you saying AoC is more like WoW than the rest?

From what I can see, the lack of like WoWness is.

GW:  Different style of game (more mini-instances, group combat etc) vs full world.  Of course, Arenas are moving at least part of wow towards GW.
DDO: Once again, different style of game due to heavy instancing.
EQ2: On launch EQ2 employed a team of midgets to stab you in the cock when you did anything.  They eventually sacked the midgets, but the damage was done.
Lineage: Grind, grind, grind.
Tabula Rasa: Sci-fi vs fantasy
VG: Lets just say the midgets got a new job after being sacked from EQ2.

The sameness between WoW and AoC is IMO lack of midgets, not too much grind, fantasy PvE with a good dose of PvP, full world with some instancing hanging off it. 

What that doesn't explain is LOTro, which has all of those too.  The only explanation I can see is that a lot of AoC's subscribers are people who are bored with WoW, and when LOTRO came out they hadn't got bored with WoW yet.  If Lotro had've launched early this year, I reckon they would have done quite nicely.  Course, how long their subscribers stayed could have been telling, but the same can be said for AoC.  As they say in corny newsposts, time will tell.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 19, 2008, 07:48:09 PM
The sameness between WoW and AoC is IMO lack of midgets, not too much grind, fantasy PvE with a good dose of PvP, full world with some instancing hanging off it. 

What that doesn't explain is LOTro, which has all of those too.  The only explanation I can see is that a lot of AoC's subscribers are people who are bored with WoW, and when LOTRO came out they hadn't got bored with WoW yet.  If Lotro had've launched early this year, I reckon they would have done quite nicely.  Course, how long their subscribers stayed could have been telling, but the same can be said for AoC.  As they say in corny newsposts, time will tell.

However this is just box sales now, what I meant is what about AoC indicates that it will be able to rival WoW in a longer term scenario. LotRO may well have done better if it released now, but I don't buy the argument that it would translate to a better comparision against WoW in 1 years time. I also don't buy the argument that AoCs sales now give any indication to how well it will do in the future; which is where the comparison to WoW has to be made.

As people pointed out, WoW has three of the top selling titles now and will assuredly have the top selling title when WotLK comes out later this year. Why should we assume that AoC is going to give it any sort of a run in a years time just because it has done well in this lull?

It is by all reports lots of fun in respects, but it is buggy, incomplete, promising the world (which is a bad sign, because even WoW, MMO giant, doesn't promise half as many astounding things in expansions--which they work on for two years--let alone to be patched in "soon"), confused about it's audience (targeting the PvP crowd is not what we'd see from a WoW rival), and a number of other things. A number of people on these forums have mentioned not playing beyond the first month, and reported similar things happening with their guilds and friends. Are these the signs that make us go "yeah AoC is going gangbusters!"? Or are they signs that say "it had a decent release, but"?

It seems the justification that AoC is a competitor is based on the fact they've sold a few bosses and WoW is in a slow period due to the upcomming expansion. Excuse me if that doesn't strike me as a reasonable justification for thinking AoC will in any way compete.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: ajax34i on June 19, 2008, 07:48:15 PM
IMO, WoW seems to be switching from a "let's use the end-game grind to keep everyone paying for as long as possible" paradigm to a "let's push another expansion out, players will be interested for maybe 3-4 months then cancel again, and we'll push another expansion in 6 to get them back for another few months."

EVE seems to be doing a "Let's get all these White Wolf people we just acquired involved in sprucing up the lore and make it look like the devs are participating and constantly creating "content" and news, and players will want to check it out."

AoC seems to be in "let's finish coding the game" mode.

And everyone else seems to be in "Meh, keep the servers up, a little free money is better than nothing" mode.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 19, 2008, 07:53:18 PM
Compared to WOW Conan has a different feel to the world, different graphic style, mature content, different combat.

LOTRO was pretty much exactly WOW. Why would anyone leave WOW for LOTRO? The only two answers to those questions were "bored of WOW" and "loves Hobbits." On the surface Conan appears to be a different game aimed at a different audience, LOTRO appeared to be a total knockoff.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 19, 2008, 08:17:32 PM
CoX went up for the first three months and then did nothing but fall off.
Nope. CoX hit it's peak in terms of subscribers in December 2005, more than a year and a half after the launch of the game. It got a big jump from the release of CoV on Halloween 2005 and it continued to stay above it's June 2004 numbers through most of 2006.

(http://pandadesigns.com/f13/CoH_chart_200803.jpg)

Edit: numbers are from NCsoft's own earning reports


CoH/V's lesson to the industry is that regularly released free content updates will help maintain a high player retention, while an expansion box will kick player numbers up as new people join.

And WoW, which just kept going up and up, kills any notion of player interest falling off a few months after launch. Evenutally it will show a bell curve in player numbers, but not for a good while yet.

AoC has had a good launch, relatively speaking. The question is if they can capitalise on that launch - really, all the people saying content is lacking post-20 just want to see post-20 content added in order to keep playing - to drive the game forward successfully. And perhaps launching in Asia will also see player numbers jump.

If we want to vaguely compare like with like, the question is: Do you think AoC will attract about 2 million US players and about 3 million European players? I'd say no, but even if it attracts a quarter of those 5 million that WoW did, it's still going to have done very well for itself.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 19, 2008, 09:14:36 PM
LOTRO was pretty much exactly WOW. Why would anyone leave WOW for LOTRO? The only two answers to those questions were "bored of WOW" and "loves Hobbits."
Pretty much, although LOTRO was more focused on telling a story, with fantastic single-player instances atmospheric zones. Hobbiton is just awesome. Turbine got so many things right with LOTRO; it had a great release and was quite well polished, but for some reason it just didn't click with people. I know it didn't for me... and I don't know why. It lacks that certain je ne sais quoi.

The only major design decision I strongly disagree with was giving prizes for killing ten gazillion rats. That kind of behavior shouldn't be encouraged.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 19, 2008, 10:58:33 PM
I believe AOC was a million boxes 'shipped' not sold, big difference there.

and yes there have been numerous alternatives to wow these past what, 3 years since it's been out? problem is no one is putting in the time or money it takes for them to be viable alternatives.  I'd love to see a game give wow a run for its money, I'd have loved aoc to spend another 6 months in the oven to tweak and make sure it was content complete. 

Developers need to realize the days of pushing something out the door half-finished are over, oh sure you will make money but you'll be forgettable.

 In terms of not only money but critical acclaim as artists and designers they have to ask themselves, do i want to make a good/profitable game that will fade into obscurity? or do i want to make the best game i can?

it's as if so many companies and designers see a blizzard flag high up on everest and decide it's impossible so they purposefully set their sights lower. frankly it's just disappointing to me when in interviews people ask "so will you game be the next wow killer?" and they respond with things like "well that would be very hard but we just wanna make the best game we can"  it's of course gussied up but it's defeatist. Just say "fuck yeah we're going to crush wow, 10mil subscribers for WAR in two years"   but no one wants to even come close to such statements because they themselves dont believe them.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 19, 2008, 11:31:57 PM
I am confident in saying that the biggest hurdle for AoC are the system requirements.
I am sure many quit because it didn't run at all on their rigs or it crawled on at 5 frame per seconds making the experience unbearable and fatiguing.

AoC is the first game everyone will resub to as soon as they upgrade their computers for any reason, and I raise on my September comback surge based on:

1) Everyone agrees that the combat is fun and the game is fun. They want to try it again on their performing machine.
2) Everyone agrees that the world and the visuals are awesome. They want to try it again on their performing new machine.
3) Summer is over, it's time to get back in your room to study/work/play. WotLK and WAR are a few months away, boredom ensues, AoC box is there on their shelf and it only needs a few clicks to resub and see if it got any better.

What will people notice then:

a) Performance are probably improved all across the boards. Client crashing might be solved by then. Not to mention again the upgraded rigs.
b) Copious amount of content has been added. People try it again and go like: "oh wow, no more grind at all, cool!"
c) PvP starting to roll. PvP content, levels, gear, sieging. Bunch of stuff familiar to WoWers and definitely an addition to what is the the game now.
d) So many things fixed and polished it will be stunningly noticeable. Not everything will be working (please), but enough stuff to make it immediately apparent.
e) If there were WoW burnouts in May-June, there will be double the amount in September. Only choice available = AoC (with the buzz being "hey, it improved so much in the last two months!)

For the above mentioned reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if they launch a "Comeback campaign" in September, giving 7 days free access to everyone who canceled by admitting it was in a crappy state before but "Now it's got vitamins! Look for yourself!"

That million boxes sold, or is going to anyway cause it doesn't matter how many are bitching, lots are still playing and loving it. My guild lost 4 members of its 40+ lot since the beginning and our server is packed. Good bunches are sticking together having FUN, bugs can't really kill the good parts of it yet. Good bunches are brilliantly surviving the bug monster and live every day as a new step toward what was to be expected since launch. Yesterday night we went hunting in the border kingdom, after spamming a few taunts in the general chat. Minutes later it was packed with 5 different guilds for a massive massive 5-way PvP mayhem. Best fun I had in a long time, and it wasn't for XP, pvp points, or anything else. Just euphoric, crazy, pvp fun bringing back to life, and enhancing, the Tarren Mill days before honour points were even in.

Bottom line: In September AoC will be tremendously better than it is now, and you'll have half a million (the other half will still be playing) hungry for MMO Fantasy Diku with a PvP slant only one click away from getting back into it. With no other choice than trying it or suck it up reading WAR and WotLK previews.
And finally, Age of Conan won't just have a comeback in subscription, whereas every other game failed, because of good timing. But because it is so much better than those games.


P.S: roughly 1 million boxes sold, roughly another million friend trial pass around. I can only say they've been so wise to save that for later. When they'll be confident in unlocking the friend passes, another million will have a fresh look at it. Bingoes.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lightstalker on June 20, 2008, 12:00:32 AM
Just to pull a number out of my ass, but...

Anything much above an 8% yield on the friend passes would surprise me.  We're still talking in the neighborhood of 80k new impressions, but that assumes the friend passes won't be used (and certainly not preferentially used) by folks who had previously purchased the retail box in the first place. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 20, 2008, 12:59:28 AM
t that assumes the friend passes won't be used (and certainly not preferentially used) by folks who had previously purchased the retail box in the first place. 

That is easily countered reactivating canceled subscriptions for 7 days. No point in giving the chance to quitters to waste the friend trial passes for themselves, so give 'em the free limited re-activation. On the other hand, and at the same time, activate friend passes. Lots of friends trying it again and fresh together finding all the above mentioned things.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Phred on June 20, 2008, 03:04:06 AM
[ I think I remember WoW AHs having some issues at launch, hell they weren't even connected between the towns.

WoW ah's were connected together in beta so it's unlikely any server launched with them still not connected. They were already connected in open beta when I played.

What "connected"? There was IF, Ogr and Ratchet. And those aren't connected to each other (Ratchet just allows both sides to post). All of the AH outpost like SW and Darn came much later.


Holy crap! I forgot that. You're right, there was no AH in Stormwind, Darnassus or the  2 Horde cities either. I guess it was the complaint of them not being connected that confused me, or just failing memory.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 20, 2008, 03:59:34 AM
I am confident in saying that the biggest hurdle for AoC are the system requirements.
I am sure many quit because it didn't run at all on their rigs or it crawled on at 5 frame per seconds making the experience unbearable and fatiguing.

AoC is the first game everyone will resub to as soon as they upgrade their computers for any reason

You only get one shot to make a fist impression.   Will a small percentage come back?  sure.  But at most 20% will even give it a second glance.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Dren on June 20, 2008, 04:32:13 AM
I am confident in saying that the biggest hurdle for AoC are the system requirements.
I am sure many quit because it didn't run at all on their rigs or it crawled on at 5 frame per seconds making the experience unbearable and fatiguing.

AoC is the first game everyone will resub to as soon as they upgrade their computers for any reason

You only get one shot to make a fist impression.   Will a small percentage come back?  sure.  But at most 20% will even give it a second glance.

I picked the box up at a Best Buy I was at while on vacation last week.  I reread the requirements and suggested specs and put it right back down.  Not for me right now I guess.  I'm not risking getting frustrated just by the poor performance, etc.  I got burnt by SB doing that and I so wanted to love that game.

It will be a long while before I have a rig that will run this and nothing else is pushing me to do that.  By the time I get a new computer, there will be a lot of other things out.  Maybe I'll check it out a year from now when they start offering free trials or something.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 20, 2008, 05:03:06 AM
I am confident in saying that the biggest hurdle for AoC are the system requirements.
I am sure many quit because it didn't run at all on their rigs or it crawled on at 5 frame per seconds making the experience unbearable and fatiguing.

AoC is the first game everyone will resub to as soon as they upgrade their computers for any reason

You only get one shot to make a fist (  :grin: ) impression. 

First impressions have been more than positive. Most of the quitters did it (after a while) because of the bad performances, supposed lack of mid level quests and poor socializing tools. Everyone had a blast for the first 3 days, and that is the first impression they will think back when the time will come.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: grunk on June 20, 2008, 06:42:51 AM
This was as expected in terms of shipped boxes. And also that the announcement hit this week especially after most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content.

Huh. I wonder how well it would go, if 50 was the cap and then you started raiding. Then a month later, they raised it to 60, then more raids. etc. Hell with that, let's start the raiding sooner. You're capped at 30 at launch! Then raid for a month, then capped at 40, then more raiding, etc etc. (Of course, someone joining a year into the game would just see a huge level treadmill and miss all the raiding in-between.)


I agree. they should have made the cap at 50 and then started some kind of end game. what hurts the game is the lack of quests todo from 50-80.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 20, 2008, 06:55:47 AM
Lots of quests from 60 to 80. What game are you people playing?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 20, 2008, 06:59:12 AM
This was as expected in terms of shipped boxes. And also that the announcement hit this week especially after most people, even the super-slow levelers are reaching their 50's and finding lack of content.

Huh. I wonder how well it would go, if 50 was the cap and then you started raiding. Then a month later, they raised it to 60, then more raids. etc. Hell with that, let's start the raiding sooner. You're capped at 30 at launch! Then raid for a month, then capped at 40, then more raiding, etc etc. (Of course, someone joining a year into the game would just see a huge level treadmill and miss all the raiding in-between.)


I agree. they should have made the cap at 50 and then started some kind of end game. what hurts the game is the lack of quests todo from 50-80.


Yeah I've hit the level 52 Cannibal Cave grind...


Grunk man, WTF happened to "AOC pwns so hardc0re yo, Wow lol eat it - Aoc rulez!!!'  ?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 20, 2008, 07:25:47 AM
Theres a few things that are going to keep bringing people back to AoC.  First off the gameplay really ruins other games for you, autoattack feels incredibly lame now when i try playing wow and i don't think i could put up with that kind of game for long anymore.  Second one of the features of their new power point system is earning points for trivial things like being subscribed and being in a guild, i guarantee you lots of people are going to keep their sub active just for this reason alone, 15 bucks a month isn't really a problem for most people.  Think of it this way, if you  were getting arena or honor points in wow by default every week just for keeping your sub active would you cancel or just keep paying it just to have a way to catch up gearwise when you do return?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 20, 2008, 08:01:24 AM
I really liked the whole AOC combat thing. It was definitely the strong point. I wondered if it was going to bother me to go back to other games, but I don't miss it in EQ2 or COX which are the two main games I'm playing. I'm pretty much active doing some kind of intelligent action the minute combat starts.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 20, 2008, 08:56:22 AM
*facepalm* AoC combat is not different from wows because of the lack of auto attack. Auto attack is just background white nose to the fact you are still just hitting the same buttons and doing your 'special' moves. Play a vaster in both games and combat is very very similar.

Now, what makes aoc better is that it's more interactive than wow or many other games, in that you are paying attention when you use those special attacks and having to counter the enemies guard. This has nothing to do with auto-attack being on or off because you're still mashing the same amount of specials.

I do think it's a shame though that this combat system is basically for melee only though, casters don't really need to pay as much attention as spells have no base directional for enemies to guard/block against. Maybe if there were some type of elemental guard system but i digress.

Aoc > wow combat with the caveats that this counts mostly for melee and that it is not auto-attack or lack thereof that is making it feel more fun and exciting.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Draegan on June 20, 2008, 09:21:42 AM
This is my opinion only.

Both AOC and LOTRO were hurt from lack of quests in the high end.  The difference to me was I quite LOTRO because the game was boring if I wasn't engaged in the story.  In AOC I didn't mind grinding because playing the game is fun.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 20, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
You are wrong again Lakov.

Autoattack makes for a less direct and visceral combat feeling. "Why is my char swinging a sword if I am not doing anything?"
Knowing that every single swing of your weapon comes from your fingers is what makes autoattack obsolete and the AoC way pure win.

So yes, the difference between the WoW and Conan combat systems starts with the lack, or presence, of autoattack. From there, it branches more and more... and that's why DDO wasn't even close to AoC combat.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Nija on June 20, 2008, 09:38:47 AM
Position has great importance in AoC melee. Some swings are obviously single target swings. Others are multiple target swings. You can mess with positioning to make the best use of these. You don't have to concentrate on positioning, but those who do will have more success than those who do not.

This is the kind of thing that all games need.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 20, 2008, 09:45:01 AM
It may seem like a simple thing, but having to react to the directional blocking of your opponent makes it far more interactive. If you use the wrong combos it can be the difference between life and death. In Wow it really doesn't matter, circle strafe bunny hop and watch the autoattacks between cooldowns.

With my conquerer the other day I finished two mobs off at the same time with a combo, and he did a double head lope.

I was just like "DAMMMMMMMMN !! " That kicked ass! - I can't remember any experiences in Wow combat that even compare. Maybe a huge crit or something, but no.


Also, in PVP positioning matters. Use your body to block escape routes of your opponents. Help your melee guys by trapping your opponents.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on June 20, 2008, 09:47:59 AM
Position has great importance in AoC melee. Some swings are obviously single target swings. Others are multiple target swings. You can mess with positioning to make the best use of these. You don't have to concentrate on positioning, but those who do will have more success than those who do not.

This is the kind of thing that all games need.

Agreed. Also that spells and heals are AoE and cone based makes it great and allows for very deep strategical gaming and placement. From all combat (PvE and PvP) I've done I just think this system is and should be a new standard.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 20, 2008, 04:19:20 PM
Play a vaster in both games and combat is very very similar.

I only ever play casters, and jumped from a Fire Mage in WoW to try the various Mage and Priest types in AoC. There is some similarity, certainly more so than between a melee in AoC and one in WoW. However, the action is much faster in AoC, the results less predictable (for good or bad), you need to pay attention to that blocking thing and that everything you do is an AoE, and the abilities are spread very different between classes.

It's not better or worse in my opinion. I love the Mage in WoW. Very much feels in game what the two CGI movies depict them as, and is straight in line with how Mages are depicted in Lore. I don't know anything about AoC lore save a few books I've read, but the way these classes are designed (not how they'll eventually turn out, since who knows..., I'm intrigued to read more.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 20, 2008, 06:13:45 PM
Play a vaster in both games and combat is very very similar.

I only ever play casters, and jumped from a Fire Mage in WoW to try the various Mage and Priest types in AoC. There is some similarity, certainly more so than between a melee in AoC and one in WoW. However, the action is much faster in AoC, the results less predictable (for good or bad), you need to pay attention to that blocking thing and that everything you do is an AoE, and the abilities are spread very different between classes.

It's not better or worse in my opinion. I love the Mage in WoW. Very much feels in game what the two CGI movies depict them as, and is straight in line with how Mages are depicted in Lore. I don't know anything about AoC lore save a few books I've read, but the way these classes are designed (not how they'll eventually turn out, since who knows..., I'm intrigued to read more.

Misspelling ftw but i wholeheartedly agree aoc is superior i just feel that the devil is in the details. I guess this demonstrates how little changes(in the grand scheme of combat systems) can have such a profound affect on the action.

By taking out auto attack and adding an aoe component to all special attacks(for the sake of argument consider all attacks in aoc 'special' attacks) the reaction is palpable.  I really think some people don't realize how subtly different combat in aoc but no one cana rgue the effect is not profound. I for one hope many future games adopt a similar system.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on June 20, 2008, 06:17:42 PM
What's odd is that in MMORPGs this is some sort of novel feature even though it's been the standard in all other video game genres for decades.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: lamaros on June 20, 2008, 06:25:10 PM
What's odd is that in MMORPGs this is some sort of novel feature even though it's been the standard in all other video game genres for decades.

The tech is probably a lot more unforgiving.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Rendakor on June 20, 2008, 10:29:09 PM
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/186176/page/1

This review seems to cover most of the bases; it's written by someone who wanted to like the game very much so.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 21, 2008, 06:07:34 AM
I've been wanting to rant about this for a while.  I think I am getting old, or maybe just crazy.  But I really, really, really don't get the love for AoC's "I stare at the UI and push 1 when it says PUSH THE ONE BUTTON and push 2 when it says PUSH THE TWO BUTTON" style of gameplay.

Actual combat in WoW is brain-dead easy. The only remotely interesting things are resource management and group coordination. Luckily, you don't have to  devote any focus to the actual combat because its mostly autopilot.

Actual combat in AoC is also brain-dead easy. The only remotely interesting things are resource management and group coordination. However, the game forces you to focus on the brain-dead easy part because it doesn't automate anything.

I found AoC's combat to be annoying and tedious rather than challenging or engaging.  Over time, this feeling increased to the point where I felt actively insulted by the game.  Macroing the combos made it slightly less insulting, but I swear my computer called me a moron a couple times even after that. 

I'll take "hit A and pray" over that any day and twice on Sundays.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 21, 2008, 06:38:21 AM
You call it brain dead easy then say you macroed it in the next line?

Sounds like you missed a few combos to me, or that you are a bar starer and don't use a nostromo (and actually click the directionals and combos with your mouse instead). The real key is, to be excellent at combos it depends on the defense your enemy is using. If they are triple blocking the middle and you do a mainly middle combo, things can go bad for you quick. But obviously, as all things, opinions vary. Fuck WoW combat is my opinion.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tmon on June 21, 2008, 08:45:46 AM

Pretty much, although LOTRO was more focused on telling a story, with fantastic single-player instances atmospheric zones. Hobbiton is just awesome. Turbine got so many things right with LOTRO; it had a great release and was quite well polished, but for some reason it just didn't click with people....

The only major design decision I strongly disagree with was giving prizes for killing ten gazillion rats. That kind of behavior shouldn't be encouraged.

I don't know why it didn't prove to be sticky, but in my case I had completely forgotten that I ever even played LOTRO until I saw this post.  This despite playing for two months post launch.  I think I have clearer memories of my two days in the DDO open beta than I do of LOTRO.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 21, 2008, 02:41:19 PM
LoTRO's story only mattered at all because of the source material. If it was the exact same game with a more generic name, it's supposedly one unique element wouldn't even be that. I would imagine all the folks seeking an improvement over WoW didn't bother reading the quest text anyway. Even if you're doing it for Aragorn, you're still just killing 10 wolves/thieves/orcs.

LoTRO did have more multi-step quest chains. Unfortunately, like their equivalent in other games, that is both more interesting AND harder to form groups around the group-required components (because invariably everyone's at a different stage).

Add to that the feeling of playing WoW underwater combat-wise, and that's why I feel LoTRO was meh, both financially and experientially.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 21, 2008, 04:10:35 PM
LOTRO had a better story, superior writing, and told it more competently. Obviously you do need to read the quest texts but if you did so you'd notice that they were far better than WoW, where many quests seemed disconnected from the world. The multi-step quest chains included multiple fully scripted solo instances that changed depending on the quest stage you were in. If you enjoy the lore, LOTRO was simply a superior single-player experience. You're right about the need for grouping; that certainly killed it for me. Underwater is an adroit way of describing the combat-- I didn't much like it, although I could deal. But again, the real problem is that it just didn't grab me, and I can't point to any specific spot where it lost me. LOTRO just didn't have "it".


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 21, 2008, 05:32:16 PM
I agree the quality was there. But in typical WoW fashion, it didn't matter because there was no real choice. Heck, even AoC has some amount of choice, light though it may be. And apparently you can finally start making some choices in WoW's WotLK, but that seems relegate to whether to hunt certain animals or not.

Had LoTRO had some useful faction system where decisions you made had some accountability to your place in the world, then people wouldn't have any choice but to pay attention. Then the quality of the writing would matter more. As it was, it only matters to the few who go out of their way it read it, and then only out of curiosity or the vague sense of immersion.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Xerapis on June 21, 2008, 08:58:39 PM
Hmm...this purchase process is about as user-friendly as the air conditioner in hell.

What's up with this SMS to my cellphone shit?  Cause the code they sent me doesn't work when I try to verify it.  And when I tell them to send me a new code, they keep sending me the same one.

Ya know, even if everything is else is broken and fucked up, you should at least make sure people can still spend their money on it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 22, 2008, 04:47:58 AM
I ask in all seriousness: what the heck are you talking about? I bought box, installed 2 DVDs, registered at site, launched and patched.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on June 22, 2008, 05:13:01 AM
He's in South Korea, as you should know. He's trying to purchase a digital download.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 22, 2008, 01:34:47 PM
I have no idea where anyone lives. Didn't think that was a requirement  :awesome_for_real:

But where they live does explain some of the wierdness of registration.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Rake on June 22, 2008, 01:58:29 PM
That reminds me of when I'd finished my two weeks trial of Horizons.
I tried to pay for the game and they wouldn't let me subscribe, because I was in Japan.

Wish all my luck was this bad  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Xerapis on June 22, 2008, 03:02:18 PM
Where I live doesn't explain their inability to send a NEW code, rather than repeatedly sending the same invalid code.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 22, 2008, 06:19:36 PM
Just an odd guess, but have you tried both clients? If you're not in an NA IP range, I wonder if they sold you a EU code? (Or versa-vice or maybe your code will work in six months or whatever when they release in Asia.)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 23, 2008, 10:21:33 AM
I think as far as server stability goes, AoC is a better launch than what my server was like at WoW's launch (I've never seen an AoC server crash).  But as far as client stability goes, WoW was better than AoC.  I'd say it's a wash.

As a followup:  The first round of (pretty major) server instability that I've seen happened this Sunday.  In fact it looked quite a bit like WoW back in those early days.  So I wanted to update and say that AoC has another tick against it as far as "smooth launches" go.

Since I was bragging about AoC's stability last week I thought it only fair that I point out this Sunday's flakiness.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 23, 2008, 11:18:43 AM
You call it brain dead easy then say you macroed it in the next line?

I'm not sure why that's odd. I macroed out some of the tedious crap, which was tedious because it was brain dead easy.  I did not find hitting 1, waiting 1.35 seconds, hitting 2, waiting 1.35 seconds, hitting 1 again, waiting 1.35 seconds, and then hitting 3 again every time I wanted to use "SpecialIII" any more challenging, engaging, or interesting than hitting 1 every time I wanted to use "SpecialC" in WoW.  Macroed it to a nostromo key and the annoyance factor dropped quite a bit (except needing to change the delays every time I got a new weapon).

Quote
Sounds like you missed a few combos to me, or that you are a bar starer and don't use a nostromo (and actually click the directionals and combos with your mouse instead). The real key is, to be excellent at combos it depends on the defense your enemy is using. If they are triple blocking the middle and you do a mainly middle combo, things can go bad for you quick.

I only got to mid-20s, but it just seemed like "before you use your left-hitting uberspecial, use some rightside regular attacks or rightside specials until you see the three little white bars line up on the right side" which seemed tedious and anti-immersive to me, rather than interesting or hard to do.  Nor did it really seem to matter all that much in the end, but I assume that changes as you get higher up.  Anyway, the mob shielding thing is a step ahead of EQ2 and Vanguard, because the "interactive combat" involves staring at little white bars around the mob rather than a hotkey bank. And it's certainly not nearly as dumb as the "hit the same chain of 2-5 keys for specials" thing. 

I think my bottom line is that I'm not really into glomming minigames onto combat unless the minigame itself is worth playing on its own.  For me, the line-up-the-shield-bar minigame did not bring the fun.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: ajax34i on June 23, 2008, 11:29:15 AM
Would it have been fun if it wasn't done with shield bars, but rather with animation and actual stances? (as in, "Oh, he's switched his shield to his other hand, I can hit from the left!!1  Quick, mash button!")


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lightstalker on June 23, 2008, 10:09:32 PM
Would it have been fun if it wasn't done with shield bars, but rather with animation and actual stances? (as in, "Oh, he's switched his shield to his other hand, I can hit from the left!!1  Quick, mash button!")

Have you thought out the mechanics of "switching his shield to the other hand" much?  I mean, it is hard to get professional football players to put the ball in the hand furthest from the tackle, much less a piece of wood strapped to your arm.

That aside, the details of the que aren't important, the depth of interaction is.  If I hit the target three times from the right and he always swaps the shield to the right then I can macro and forget about your dynamic combat because it follows a predictable and repeated sequence.  There is no mystery nor discovery after you've done it once, just tedium from the manual repitition.  All for 'better' combat, just don't make it a chore.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 24, 2008, 05:54:00 AM
Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 24, 2008, 06:30:22 AM
Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 24, 2008, 06:32:51 AM
Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: slog on June 24, 2008, 06:47:00 AM
Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

In the long term, I predict it will pretty much required for PvP.  With analysis, the best combos will be become known. Those folks who pre-program them will have an advantage over those that do not. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 24, 2008, 06:56:58 AM
Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

In the long term, I predict it will pretty much required for PvP.  With analysis, the best combos will be become known. Those folks who pre-program them will have an advantage over those that do not. 

No, they will have a Achilles heel. Because more experienced PvPers will do the direct opposite and continue to rely on the opponents tells as to what to do/expect. Unlinke other games IMO, the combat, especially PvP is way more dynamic, and less of a set sequence. There are also advantages in not completing combos..ETC..

So, again, good luck with that. Its going to do more harm than good.IMO.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 24, 2008, 09:55:35 AM
Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

In the long term, I predict it will pretty much required for PvP.  With analysis, the best combos will be become known. Those folks who pre-program them will have an advantage over those that do not. 

I dont think so, the most important part of doing a combo in pvp is timing the last hit so the enemy is in range.  It doesnt help at all to macro a combo when you have no chance of actually hitting anyone.  For pve sure, macro the shit out of it, but id like to see you hit a retard hopper with a macroed combo.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 24, 2008, 11:08:49 AM
I dont think so, the most important part of doing a combo in pvp is timing the last hit so the enemy is in range.  It doesnt help at all to macro a combo when you have no chance of actually hitting anyone.  For pve sure, macro the shit out of it, but id like to see you hit a retard hopper with a macroed combo.

Can you macro everything except the last hit in the combo, then activate it when the hopper is in range?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 24, 2008, 12:04:41 PM
I dont think so, the most important part of doing a combo in pvp is timing the last hit so the enemy is in range.  It doesnt help at all to macro a combo when you have no chance of actually hitting anyone.  For pve sure, macro the shit out of it, but id like to see you hit a retard hopper with a macroed combo.

Can you macro everything except the last hit in the combo, then activate it when the hopper is in range?

I honestly don't know, but having to do one key press instead of three which still leaves the only important one up to the player isnt really much of an advantage.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: rk47 on June 25, 2008, 12:23:13 AM
I'd kill for a game that could make ppl not realize it's all rep grind and raids till 1.5 year sub has passed. Come on. It's money hats. So WoW failed the 1.5 year litmus test. Lulz. Gold taps in the toilet ftw.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 25, 2008, 05:10:13 AM
I'd kill for a game that could make ppl not realize it's all rep grind and raids till 1.5 year sub has passed. Come on. It's money hats. So WoW failed the 1.5 year litmus test. Lulz. Gold taps in the toilet ftw.

blargh im jaded and edgy blargh rage blargh


No really, we get it. Raiding, rep grinding, pvp level grinding, AA's, PP's, TT's, CiCi's pizza(mmm) this is what these games are about, time sinks. That's sort of the 'point' afterall you are paying them a monthly fee, that means they want to give you enough stuff to do that you will pay them into the next month.

Now in a mystical magical land where unicorns have sex with dolphins on top of rainbows, there might be a game that can make new content like dungeons and lands to explore so fast that you will never run out of foozles to kill or mountains to explore but that's not the fucking reality we live in.

If you don't like grinding, play a game without levels(mario maybe?) the fact is like it or not this whole genre is about time sinks, from UO to atitd to wow. Now, some time sinks you might prefer over others and so you play one game over another but let's not kid ourselves here, it's still a goddamn pointless time sink. Litmus test of 1.5 years? I'm not even sure what you mean but again, anyone who thinks that new MMO on the horizons is going to be 'different' is mentally deficient.

You may retort with "i just want a game that the grind isn't noticed" and honestly i don't think that game exists for you, i don't think any grind at all is acceptable for some peoples standards, all i can say is that this probably isn't the right genre for you.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 25, 2008, 05:59:00 AM
Quote
Now in a mystical magical land where unicorns have sex with dolphins on top of rainbows, there might be a game that can make new content like dungeons and lands to explore so fast that you will never run out of foozles to kill or mountains to explore but that's not the fucking reality we live in.

WOW could do it if they wanted, take EQ2s content/$ over time and apply it to WOW and you get an new expansion every 6 weeks and a new dungeon every week.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 25, 2008, 08:48:18 AM
This is where that conversation about large project management, software dev standards and the mythical man hour happened last time.  Can we not do that again?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: El Gallo on June 25, 2008, 08:56:07 AM
I demand to have a brand-new game the size of Baldur's Gate II, except with modern graphics and the capacity to play that same game with thousands of other people, delivered to my PC every week. And I want them all to mesh into the same overarching game.  And I want it for 12.99 a month.  If you do not give this to me, I will make angry posts on the Internet about timesinks. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on June 25, 2008, 09:21:11 AM
I got a survey in email today about why I'd quit AOC. It wasn't too bad, but it seemed to be entirely "hardware" technical--ie, does it run and how many FPS. There was virtually nothing in it about what I thought were the real issues in the game, which were the number of game systems that weren't really functioning correctly.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 25, 2008, 10:37:27 AM
I got a survey in email today about why I'd quit AOC. It wasn't too bad, but it seemed to be entirely "hardware" technical--ie, does it run and how many FPS. There was virtually nothing in it about what I thought were the real issues in the game, which were the number of game systems that weren't really functioning correctly.

Im sure thats probably because on their previous surveys, before anyone got to experience all their broken systems, 90% of the complaints were hardware and fps related. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Kirth on June 25, 2008, 11:50:21 AM
I thought it was 50/50 on tech vs gameplay issues. here is one question:

Quote
Give us your rating on a scale of 1-5 regarding the following gameplay issues in Age of Conan. 5 being "I had constant problems" and 1 being "I did not experience this"
    1   2   3   4   5
Class balance                   
Difficulty - too easy                   
Difficulty - too hard                   
Items                   
Lack of content                   
PvP                   
Quests                   
Tired of game / bored                   
Other                   
    

Plus you had a chance to add a block of text at the end.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 25, 2008, 01:24:37 PM
This is where that conversation about large project management, software dev standards and the mythical man hour happened last time.  Can we not do that again?

Procedural generation?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Triforcer on June 25, 2008, 03:02:45 PM
Devs could do what Numtini requested if they just thought outside the box and revolutionized their paradigm. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on June 25, 2008, 03:15:33 PM
Procedural generation?
There's been some of that with the AO dungeons and such, but while mad libs are cute people see through them and figure out the templates very very fast. Not to say it's undoable, but suspect the number of parts that'd need to be hand-crafted to provide any kind of variety would need to be huge, on par with development of regular content pack. And then people would pick on the underlying patterns fast and demand "something new, not this boring same shit all over again" anyway.

But yeah, what Triforcer said (i'm presuming it's green)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Triforcer on June 25, 2008, 03:59:25 PM

But yeah, what Triforcer said (i'm presuming it's green)

Not green is the new green.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on June 25, 2008, 08:49:00 PM
I thought it was 50/50 on tech vs gameplay issues. here is one question:

Quote
Give us your rating on a scale of 1-5 regarding the following gameplay issues in Age of Conan. 5 being "I had constant problems" and 1 being "I did not experience this"
    1   2   3   4   5
Class balance                   
Difficulty - too easy                   
Difficulty - too hard                   
Items                   
Lack of content                   
PvP                   
Quests                   
Tired of game / bored                   
Other                   
    

Plus you had a chance to add a block of text at the end.

What an awful, awful question. What the hell does "I had constant problems" in relation to PvP even mean? Or for items?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 26, 2008, 08:56:26 AM
Have Funcom released any one-month subs figures yet, out of interest?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Adam Tiler on June 26, 2008, 09:45:52 AM
I thought it was 50/50 on tech vs gameplay issues. here is one question:

Quote
Give us your rating on a scale of 1-5 regarding the following gameplay issues in Age of Conan. 5 being "I had constant problems" and 1 being "I did not experience this"
    1   2   3   4   5
Class balance                   
Difficulty - too easy                   
Difficulty - too hard                   
Items                   
Lack of content                   
PvP                   
Quests                   
Tired of game / bored                   
Other                   
    

Plus you had a chance to add a block of text at the end.

What an awful, awful question. What the hell does "I had constant problems" in relation to PvP even mean? Or for items?

"I did not experience items."


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 26, 2008, 04:19:26 PM
Funcom director: "You see, WoW is like McDonalds..." (http://kotaku.com/5019956/age-of-conan-director-mcribs-wow)
 :uhrr:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 26, 2008, 04:24:20 PM
Quote
At least when I order from McDonald's 9 times out of 10 they put everything I ordered in the bag, Gaute.

I'd love to find the McDonalds this guy shops at, because the one by my house gets my order right about 60% of the time at best.  I have started sitting in the drive thru and not moving my car until I count each and every thing in the bag. ;)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 26, 2008, 04:45:05 PM
Have Funcom released any one-month subs figures yet, out of interest?

It *is* very interesting to see what long-term effect of this going to be. I dare to guess - AO-like.

Well lets talk about what AoC got right - newbie experience. I think 'day/night' beats camping the same rat spawn with hundreds of people on release day.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on June 26, 2008, 04:56:27 PM
Quote
At least when I order from McDonald's 9 times out of 10 they put everything I ordered in the bag, Gaute.

I'd love to find the McDonalds this guy shops at, because the one by my house gets my order right about 60% of the time at best.  I have started sitting in the drive thru and not moving my car until I count each and every thing in the bag. ;)

Your store must be privately owned.  Report them to corporate every time you have this problem.  Not only will you get a lot of free food, you'll see the service there improve.  At least it worked for the one I lived near before my current house.  I even got a letter of apology from the district manager at one point.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on June 26, 2008, 06:24:07 PM
Given a choice why would you voluntarily eat that crap or play that crap?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 26, 2008, 06:40:12 PM
I like how he compares AoC to a steak dinner.  :awesome_for_real:

It's fucking subjective. While I haven't played Conan, everything I've heard leads me to believe that it's just another MMOG. No better or worse than WoW. It's only real edge is that it's the "new shiny"- until WAR comes out.  :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: rk47 on June 26, 2008, 07:29:30 PM
It's a steak alright, the meat is all the same, though. Grind meat.  :grin:

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/506878238_612a0610bf.jpg)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on June 26, 2008, 07:30:10 PM
Nice one rk :)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 27, 2008, 01:17:24 AM
Quote
Eurogamer: You've had somewhere over a million sales of the game in its first month - did you expect that level of success?

Gaute Godager: We've actually had over a million sell-ins, which means that that's the number of copies that have gone to shops. That's a bit different from sell-through. We expect those to go out in the first four to six weeks - but we don't really know exactly how many copies have sold through to customers.

Eurogamer: Have you had any teething trouble, given the large number of players at launch?

Gaute Godager: Technically it's been smooth, in fact a lot smoother than we'd expected. I was actually a bit surprised at that, because based on previous launches and what we've seen from other games, I was expecting more technical troubles. The servers have coped miraculously well.

What we weren't able to ramp up was customer service... We had a sales projection, and we went with that in terms of hiring customer service staff - and then we sold a lot more. We were caught out by our own success there. We're really doing absolutely everything we can to deal with that issue as fast as we can.



Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=159843&page=1


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on June 29, 2008, 10:21:35 AM
I haven't had anything approaching red meat from McDs since hey launched "Chicken" McNuggets. MUCH safer in my mind to experiment with notChicken than notBeef.

I like that he was honest about sell-in vs sell-through though. Rare to see someone not #1 correcting a number of subs/sales down.

Quote from: sinij
Well lets talk about what AoC got right - newbie experience. I think 'day/night' beats camping the same rat spawn with hundreds of people on release day.
Yes. The first two times only though. After that you're looking for the tried and true ways for grinding past that noise, but without any of the persistent-world tools other games give you. It's not a slow process though, with practice. I think I can hit 20 again in about 8 hours /played? Haven't tried recently.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on June 29, 2008, 12:42:57 PM
I like that he was honest about sell-in vs sell-through though. Rare to see someone not #1 correcting a number of subs/sales
They are a public company whose primary business is MMOs. Not correcting that sort of thing would be a serious problem.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on June 29, 2008, 02:41:32 PM
The fact that even they were surprised their game didn't run like total crap is hilarious, he even mentions their previous launches in a kinda "hey we are funcom, if it doesnt format your drive we call it a success" way. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on June 30, 2008, 05:45:33 AM
Investors material: http://www.funcom.com/funcom/frontend/files/CONTENT/080630_Funcom%20Update.pdf

Quote
FUNCOM NEWS
Funcom would like to provide an outlook for its second quarter 2008 revenue and results
Status of the launch
Funcom is pleased with the very successful launch of the ‘Age of Conan’ game, making it one of the largest western world PC launches in this decade. So far the product has sold through over 700.000 copies (i.e. customers that have bought a game client and entered their game client key and payment details into Funcom’s billing database).
Key success factors going forward will be Funcom’s ability to maximize the average longevity of subscription as well as the continued rate of customer acquisition. To maximize the average longevity of subscription Funcom will continue to expand and improve the product. To maximize the rate of customer acquisition Funcom will among other initiatives enter new markets with localized versions and optimize the Company’s sales and marketing initiatives. The Company is so far satisfied with the initial figures on customer retention and churn levels.
It is expected that the sales curves for the ‘Age of Conan’ game over time will be similar to the sales curves over time of other MMOs. So far the sales seem to follow the customary sales development.
Outlook for Q2 2008
The revenue in the second quarter of 2008 (Q208) is estimated to be between USD 11 million and USD 12 million and the EBIT in this period is estimated to in the range of from USD -5.5 million to USD -6,5 million.
Some key parameters in this estimate are:

Box revenue estimation:
o
The number of activated game keys in the ‘Age of Conan’ game is used as an estimate for retail sales in Q208. Funcom will receive reports from its co-publisher SCI Eidos after the end of each fiscal quarter.
o
The Company expects to receive approximately 20% of the box revenues sold through the retail channel and somewhat less in some export markets like countries in Eastern Europe.

Subscription revenue estimation:
o
Estimations regarding subscription revenues are based on early service renewal data, and have therefore a degree of uncertainty related to them.
o
Funcom follows a percentage of completion (time apportioned) basis of revenue recognition for service related revenues (subscription revenues). Subscription revenue is therefore recognized over the subscription period. The first subscription payments for the ‘Age of Conan’ game started on June 19. Therefore, relatively low subscription revenues have been booked in the second quarter.

Cost Estimation:
o
Funcom bases its cost estimation on closed accounts for the months April and May as well as estimates for the month of June.
o
The Company has had extraordinary cost levels in the areas of marketing, hosting, hardware purchases, personnel costs and operations related to the launch of the ‘Age of Conan’ game.
o
From the launch in May the company has started expensing a significant part of the costs related to the ‘Age of Conan’ project.
o
From the launch in May the company has started to amortize the intangible asset related to the ‘Age of Conan’ game.
The Company will present its Q208 financials on August 15th 2008.
For risk evaluation, please see previous communication from the Company.
The Management Board of Funcom N.V.
Dübendorf, June 30, 2008

And press release: http://www.funcom.com/wsp/funcom/frontend.cgi?func=publish.show&func_id=1305&table=CONTENT&item=1004

Quote

Age of Conan continues to dominate retail charts

The best selling PC game of May continues to hold the #1 spot in most markets.
More than 700.000 gamers have registered an Age of Conan account so far.

Durham, USA – June 30, 2008 – Funcom is proud to announce that Age of Conan continues to dominate the PC sales charts in all markets where the game is available. Over the last few weeks it has remained the overall #1 PC game in most European markets, while also performing tremendously well on several all-format charts. In the US, Age of Conan impressively conquered the #1 PC spot for the first two weeks of available NPD data. Due to the amazing interest surrounding the game, more than 700.000 gamers have now signed up for an Age of Conan account. In the second month after release it is also clear that Age of Conan has taken the position as the undisputed #2 subscription MMO in the western world.

When Age of Conan stormed into retail stores as the most pre-ordered original PC game in history, it instantly became the best selling PC game of May. The pace at which Age of Conan sold made it one of the fastest selling PC games of all times, and Funcom is therefore very satisfied to see the positive sales trend continue. As all countries report sales differently, it is not possible to get a complete overview of the exact box sales at the time of writing, but Age of Conan remains the top selling PC game in most all released markets. This includes being the #1 overall PC game in June in the Nordic countries, Oceania, Germany, France and Spain, as well a top three contender in all other markets where the game is out. No substantial sales data for June is yet available from the US market, but Age of Conan was the #1 PC game in the latest official NPD update.

“That Age of Conan remains #1 in retail stores several weeks after release is of incredible importance to us, and proves that the game has a large potential beyond the early adopters,” said Morten Larssen, VP of Sales & Marketing in Funcom. “With more than 700.000 accounts created so far we have a fantastic platform to build from, and we will continue our marketing spend to further drive numbers in the months to come. It also means that Funcom can dedicate significant development resources on evolving the game even further, naturally giving us a great hope for the future of Age of Conan.”

“We are incredibly pleased to see Age of Conan turning into an MMO phenomena,” said Gaute Godager, Game Director on Age of Conan. “As a MMO company we know that a good start is but the beginning for a virtual world. All we care about now is to make Age of Conan into an even better game, and we have extensive plans to ensure that Age of Conan remains a top MMO alternative for many years to come.”



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on June 30, 2008, 05:51:59 AM
Quote
All we care about now is to make Age of Conan into an even better game, and we have extensive plans to ensure that Age of Conan remains a top MMO alternative for many years to come.”

That's what things that aren't WoW are called now? MMO Alternative? :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 30, 2008, 05:53:00 AM
Quote
All we care about now is to make Age of Conan into an even better game, and we have extensive plans to ensure that Age of Conan remains a top MMO alternative for many years to come.”

That's what things that aren't WoW are called now? MMO Alternative? :awesome_for_real:

Read: Wendy's


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Bzalthek on June 30, 2008, 07:32:19 AM
Man, it doesn't even rate a Burger King?  Sad.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: HaemishM on June 30, 2008, 08:42:22 AM
They only recoup 20% of the box sales? Is Funcom the publisher as well? Because if that's the case, I can see why so many PC game devs go broke. If the developer/publisher split averages around 20% for the PC game industry, box sales are shit revenue on anything but the biggest sellers.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Engels on June 30, 2008, 08:46:05 AM
Eidos is the publisher


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 30, 2008, 09:31:31 AM
Man, it doesn't even rate a Burger King?  Sad.

Frosty's are pretty bomb.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on June 30, 2008, 10:02:44 AM
Quote
The Company will present its Q208 financials on August 15th 2008.
There we go, that should be long enough to start getting a clearer picture.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 30, 2008, 10:29:27 AM
They only recoup 20% of the box sales? Is Funcom the publisher as well? Because if that's the case, I can see why so many PC game devs go broke. If the developer/publisher split averages around 20% for the PC game industry, box sales are shit revenue on anything but the biggest sellers.
That's actually a fairly good deal, these days.  Not great, but not bad.  Of course, it helps that they didn't actually take any advances from Eidos, and probably they gave up a few points in order to get Eidos to commit to POS and "Market Development" funds.

Your typical publisher-funding developer deal would be several points lower, might be calculated against the wholesale instead of the retail, and every dime the publisher spent (including charges for every time anyone at the publisher even thought about the game) would come out *first*.  Odds are very high that a moderately successful PC game will never earn the developer a dime in royalties.  If you go through the traditional model, anyway.

Funcom is probably factoring (borrowing against) those payments in order to raise cash they need now to operate the game (since they won't be paid for at least another 6 months).

--Dave


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on June 30, 2008, 10:36:51 AM
Funcom is probably factoring (borrowing against) those payments in order to raise cash they need now to operate the game (since they won't be paid for at least another 6 months).

I'm not much of a financial guy, but they said they has $47 million cash on hand in March.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 01, 2008, 01:23:38 AM
Quote
Server 'Fury' has reached player limit
The PvP server 'Fury' has reached the maximum amount of player characters today. This means that at the moment no new characters can be created on 'Fury'.

This limit will be increased on the next update (planned for Wednesday) so new characters can be created again.

Thank you.
__________________

Funcom   Oliver 'Tarib' Kunz
Senior Community Manager

That was yesterday.

Source: http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=60815


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 01, 2008, 01:35:31 AM
:headscratch:

That's a very odd backend design.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Oban on July 01, 2008, 03:34:32 AM
Too many alts being made requires either a software license upgrade for the database or more storage.

Meh, normal.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 01, 2008, 03:44:38 AM
When was the last time you heard of this happening just for character creation? I.e. not talking about taking things down to upgrade hardware to support more simultaneous users or reduce the existing server lag.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 01, 2008, 05:55:10 AM
When was the last time you heard of this happening just for character creation? I.e. not talking about taking things down to upgrade hardware to support more simultaneous users or reduce the existing server lag.


I don't think this means just that, it could very well be that they looked at the total number of character's and then looked at the typical average for concurrent connections at peak time (estimated or potential) and said...no more.

They could potentially just add a new server to that world, as every zone is an instance, it could pick up some of the slack.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 01, 2008, 06:17:16 AM
This happened on my server a few weeks back.  Couldn't make new characters for a few days and then on the next patch we could make them again.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 01, 2008, 06:18:26 AM
It doesn't sound like a sign of bad health for AoC though. Which is kinda surprising, because due to incoming summer, bugs and bad performances I was under the impression that subscriptions were bleeding at an alarming rate. The f13 thread seems to confirm this quitting trend.

Now maybe this is just a "cunning" press stunt (or a symptom of more technical inadequacy), but took me by surprise.


EDIT: This video (http://www.vimeo.com/1246488) doesn't look like bad health too.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 01, 2008, 06:36:33 AM
I don't think this means just that, it could very well be that they looked at the total number of character's and then looked at the typical average for concurrent connections at peak time (estimated or potential) and said...no more.
Looking at the total number of characters is meaningless for estimating peak concurrency unless the game allows you to play multiple characters from the same account at the same time.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on July 01, 2008, 06:42:48 AM
It's probably just a database thing. Each character gets alloted a certain amount of unique items or whatever. Queue all of the early SWG armchair DB designer discussions. I don't know anything about this stuff, except to guess that in a sharded world, there's eventually a hard cap of some type.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 01, 2008, 06:50:42 AM
I don't think this means just that, it could very well be that they looked at the total number of character's and then looked at the typical average for concurrent connections at peak time (estimated or potential) and said...no more.
Looking at the total number of characters is meaningless for estimating peak concurrency unless the game allows you to play multiple characters from the same account at the same time.


You are assuming that the largest portion of characters are alts. We don't know this to be true, or false.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 01, 2008, 06:56:20 AM
It doesn't matter either way.

They already know their peak concurrency rate on that server. They already know the number of accounts on that server so they know the ratio (e.g. if accounts on that server is increasing by X a day then peak concurrency will probably go up by Y). Factoring in number of characters on those accounts is totally useless in estimating peak concurrency at some point in the future.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Oban on July 01, 2008, 07:14:18 AM
When was the last time you heard of this happening just for character creation? I.e. not talking about taking things down to upgrade hardware to support more simultaneous users or reduce the existing server lag.


SWG


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 01, 2008, 07:24:57 AM
Was this to actually allow more characters into the database or to support more concurrent users? SWG was an exception because of their one character one server rule so in that situation characters == accounts.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Miasma on July 01, 2008, 08:31:29 AM
I assume it's either alts or some large PvP guild coming in all at once to give it a try.  As you get higher you need more bank mules if you are storing gems, alchemy supplies and other resources.

On a side note I actually took gemcutting yesterday and discovered that all the time I spent methodically banking gems, putting them in order by uncut/flawless, level and type was completely worthless.  To level gemcutting all you need is three of any gem for that tier.  Since virtually no one would wear crafted gear outside of level 70's and 80's there is no point to saving these gems as you level.  Just save three and then destroy the rest.  There is also a bug which means to get credit for each cut you have to zone or log out/in each time.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on July 01, 2008, 09:29:56 AM
I assume it's either alts or some large PvP guild coming in all at once to give it a try.  As you get higher you need more bank mules if you are storing gems, alchemy supplies and other resources.

On a side note I actually took gemcutting yesterday and discovered that all the time I spent methodically banking gems, putting them in order by uncut/flawless, level and type was completely worthless.  To level gemcutting all you need is three of any gem for that tier.  Since virtually no one would wear crafted gear outside of level 70's and 80's there is no point to saving these gems as you level.  Just save three and then destroy the rest.  There is also a bug which means to get credit for each cut you have to zone or log out/in each time.

Actually thats very very wrong.  Some gems do not improve as they level so those low level ones are just as good as the level 80 gems.  Immunities, evasion, offhand chance, are all the same at every level,  i think the only thing that scales are the +dmg +magic and proc gems.  What is worthless though are the uncut gems, i doubt anyone actually bothers with green crafted gear.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on July 01, 2008, 09:34:00 AM
Female DPS bug not fixed after all, will take weeks to fix. (http://www.massively.com/2008/07/01/female-avatar-dps-bug-will-take-weeks-to-correct/)

Ouch.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on July 01, 2008, 09:57:19 AM
How hard would it be to analyse what the difference in dps is and then apply a temporary dps boost to females to balance things out?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on July 01, 2008, 10:03:14 AM
Well it's not just straight damage, many of the moves also have various status effects associated with them as well like attack debuffs, damage over time, stamina regen, etc. So even if you added a "if female damage = damage*1.25" the players would still be missing out. It's pretty bad.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 01, 2008, 10:08:05 AM
I chose to think that the female dps bug is a grand social experiment by Funcom to show us how far Women's Liberation has come, and yet, how far it has left to go.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Oban on July 01, 2008, 10:10:24 AM
I chose to think that the female dps bug is a grand social experiment by Funcom to show us how far Women's Liberation has come, and yet, how far it has left to go.

Or, mangina deterrence.

 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tazelbain on July 01, 2008, 10:12:31 AM
Nice to know that you could hack the client and get infinite dps.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on July 01, 2008, 10:14:08 AM
How can every animation favor males?  Shouldn't there be some averaging going on?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 01, 2008, 10:16:01 AM
How can every animation favor males?  Shouldn't there be some averaging going on?

Get back in the kitchen and bake us a pie, the men are talking.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 01, 2008, 10:16:19 AM
just make it so only women could play female av's and then no one would notice since girls are such horrible gamers anyways.










  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on July 01, 2008, 10:17:43 AM
They spent too much CPU time modeling the movement of magnificent, soft, pillowy, pendulous, hypnotizing breastages which left little resources to handle secondary stuff like attack animations.

But really, my guess would be that nobody really thought to look at it, and figured that animation speeds would all even out in the end as they weren't trying to make females slower. But it didn't work out that way.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 01, 2008, 10:30:33 AM
How can every animation favor males?  Shouldn't there be some averaging going on?

Normally they would be the same rig, and share animations (or perpend the call to use a more female version, still the same rig though), this seems not to be the case based on the description of the problem. Its an animation issue, not a "scaling/playback speed" animation problem.

The only thing i don't get, is why the animation has anything to do with the damage taking effect. They should, in most cases be separate. Seems the length of the animation is used to determine when damage is done.

Perhaps its due to the more real time nature of the game. Basing it off the animation would at least ensure that on screen when something "hits" damage is done then. Not before, after, or in spite of.

Thing is (what confuses me), animation length time is normally just a variable in the code, not really triggered by the end of playback.

 :headscratch:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Oban on July 01, 2008, 10:49:17 AM
Maybe if they added larger cod pieces to the male models it would all balance out.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on July 01, 2008, 01:41:46 PM
The only thing i don't get, is why the animation has anything to do with the damage taking effect. They should, in most cases be separate. Seems the length of the animation is used to determine when damage is done.
Wouldn't this be simply result of not being able to execute another weapon swing until the current one is finished (and that's determined by length of animation)? So the longer each swing takes, the less can be made in given slice of time... it seems like pretty normal approach, even for MMOs.

edit: though given that, i'm surprised the animators weren't given exact times each attack animation should take, to begin with...


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 01, 2008, 02:32:59 PM
What I'm not getting is why they can't fix it, atleast temporarily, as it's interpolation animation via bones. They are just keyframes with interpolation that can be run at any speed, even if playing it too fast will make it look a little jerky. Every game ever tweaks the animation speeds in code, after the actual rigging has been done. Surely some visual anomalies are quite okay compared to a pretty huge bug?

Overall I find it really hard to see why they've used animation triggers rather than timers. If you want amazing animation you fix the animations to fit the game design, not the other way around.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on July 01, 2008, 03:25:49 PM
Surely some visual anomalies are quite okay compared to a pretty huge bug?
Assuming you're correct in your assumption as to how the client was coded, the answer is still no. Even the theorycrafters and powergamers found the female DPS disparity difficult to quantify. Only players reading the forums know about it. Everybody would notice stuttering animations.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 01, 2008, 04:38:07 PM
Every time I run through all the possibilities in my head, I come to the conclusion that there is no logical explanation.

Thus I suspect that a design decision was made by someone that this is Conan, and it's a mature mmog and people can just handle the fact that women are weaker and fight worse than men. 

When someone found the "bug" it sparked a flurry of internal conversation where someone eventually said "Okay you fucking crack smoking assholes, this is going to not only cause a huge backlash with the player base, when people start saying 'LF2M for Cistern, must be male', but it's also going to cause a fucking explosion in the media.  Put down the fucking pipe and fix this shit now."

I'm willing to listen to other possible explanations, but I just can't come up with anything that makes sense.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 01, 2008, 05:00:15 PM
Every time I run through all the possibilities in my head, I come to the conclusion that there is no logical explanation.

Thus I suspect that a design decision was made by someone that this is Conan, and it's a mature mmog and people can just handle the fact that women are weaker and fight worse than men. 

When someone found the "bug" it sparked a flurry of internal conversation where someone eventually said "Okay you fucking crack smoking assholes, this is going to not only cause a huge backlash with the player base, when people start saying 'LF2M for Cistern, must be male', but it's also going to cause a fucking explosion in the media.  Put down the fucking pipe and fix this shit now."

I'm willing to listen to other possible explanations, but I just can't come up with anything that makes sense.

If I am to believe any game designers to be his stupid, than all hope for humanity is truly lost and we should all be hoarding guns and canned food.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 01, 2008, 05:06:31 PM
If I am to believe any game designers to be his stupid, than all hope for humanity is truly lost and we should all be hoarding guns and canned food.

I know, it frightens me too.

But any other explanation requires too much suspension of disbelief for my tastes.  I pray that someday I'll read a postmortem on this issue on Gamasutra.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 01, 2008, 05:16:35 PM
Surely some visual anomalies are quite okay compared to a pretty huge bug?
Assuming you're correct in your assumption as to how the client was coded, the answer is still no. Even the theorycrafters and powergamers found the female DPS disparity difficult to quantify. Only players reading the forums know about it. Everybody would notice stuttering animations.
Not jerkiness as such, but rather that some animations played a little faster than others. It would seem a little unnatural at most.

It definitiely qualifies as a "What the fuck were they thinking"-bug in either case.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on July 01, 2008, 07:02:29 PM
How can every animation favor males?  Shouldn't there be some averaging going on?

Animations that advantage females include bouncing, jiggling and same-sex kissing. These animations cause male players around the female avatars to drop fat loot straight into the females' inventories.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 01, 2008, 07:57:26 PM
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/37257

Some details regarding the bug from one of the devs.

Edit:
That post makes it sound like there's some formula behind the combos that calculates the up-front damage based on multiple, intrinsic properties of the animation. As a developer myself, it sounds absolutely insane. They should learn about MVC or any decent 3-layer abstraction model. Data is not Logic is not Interface. Jesus.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on July 01, 2008, 08:15:02 PM
The only thing I can think of is when designing them the animator thought, "Hmmm.  Let's make the guys swing forcefully, so that is a quick blow.  I'll make women have a little more flourish and style to their swing," without realizing damage would be directly tied to animation length.  So the animations were consistent within each gender, however the guys programing damage somehow assumed all the animations were equivilant.

That someone couldn't catch this is mind-boggling, but I just don't see any other way there could be a consistant decrease in females' damage otherwise.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on July 01, 2008, 09:52:47 PM
Yeah it sounds like total amateur hour. How the hell can you program your own 3D engine and not get this sort of stuff right?

I might understand if animation length made it so that you could swing less often for lower total damage output, but making damage based off the length of the animation itself is crazy.

It reminds me of the days when 2D fighting game fans bitched that the hit detection was performed by boxes instead of pixel by pixel. Pixel by pixel sounds great until you realize that every time you want to change move properties you have to redraw the entire set of frames.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 02, 2008, 06:11:33 AM
To the animation conversation, i want to add something i didn't think about/forgot before.

All animations are mocaped. Meaning no shared rig.

Also:

The only thing I can think of is when designing them the animator thought, "Hmmm.  Let's make the guys swing forcefully, so that is a quick blow.  I'll make women have a little more flourish and style to their swing," without realizing damage would be directly tied to animation length.  So the animations were consistent within each gender, however the guys programing damage somehow assumed all the animations were equivilant.

Thats a very good, and logical assumption, i could see how this could have easily happened.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 02, 2008, 07:29:22 AM
Damage is probably only indirectly tied to animation length, i.e. the client will not allow a new attack to occur until the previous attack completes it's animation cycle.  The server only checks for minimum time between attacks and doesn't care if the time between attacks is longer than that minimum.  Thus damage is tied to animation length, but only because 100 damage / 1.5 seconds vs 100 damage / 1.8 seconds decreases your dps.  If the damage was normalized over the animation length (if the algorithm took the length of the animation into account) then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.  For example, if the male did 100 damage on his combo and the animation was 1.5 seconds, the female should do 120 on her 1.8 second combo and they'd have equal dps.  This would still lead to problems though, as one would better at burst damage than the other (i.e. if all battles last 2 seconds, the female would out damage the male). 

And I suppose that animation length is encoded in the animation data itself, thus without outside verification (which was eventually performed by the theorycrafters) no one noticed the lengths of the animations being different.  One would have to assume that the designer told the animator the exact length needed for all the animations, if that's the case then the animator must have taken those specifications as "rough guidelines". ;)  Having worked with animators in the past I can almost see something like this happening.

The other option is that the designer didn't realize the importance of the length of the animation, thus only gave rough guidelines to the animator.  This would mean the designer is a total idiot, so I kinda don't like to go too far down this train of thought.

Or we come back around full circle to the fact that the game was intentionally sexist.  I like this theory best, but only in hopes that it will force Funcom to one day prove me wrong and tell us the full story!

EDIT:  One huge assumption I keep seeing people make is that Female animation times are wrong, Male animation times are right.  What if the opposite is true?  The "rebalancing" part of the fix could be to speed up all female attacks but then lower the damage of all combos to match the previous female dps.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 02, 2008, 07:36:48 AM
The other option is that the designer didn't realize the importance of the length of the animation, thus only gave rough guidelines to the animator.  This would mean the designer is a total idiot, so I kinda don't like to go too far down this train of thought.

HAY HAY HAY there pal!

The PROGRAMMER could have simply made the arbitrary choice to make his timing off the length of the animations as well.

Any one of the departments could be at fault here, animation, design, or programming. We all know when you design something, its not necessarily how the programmer implements it, and we all know that when you animate something, chances are, you got the wrong specs, OR the programmer could have just assumed all animations were the same length ... ETC...

I know when i design something, 9 times out of 10, its not working right because of the programmer and his great ideas and shortcuts, because they never care about look and FEEL of the system, just working, or not.  :raspberry:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Numtini on July 02, 2008, 07:38:33 AM
The female DPS thing has started to hit my feminist web pages.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 02, 2008, 07:42:51 AM
HAY HAY HAY there pal!

The PROGRAMMER could have simply made the arbitrary choice to make his timing off the length of the animations as well.

Any one of the departments could be at fault here, animation, design, or programming. We all know when you design something, its not necessarily how the programmer implements it, and we all know that when you animate something, chances are, you got the wrong specs, OR the programmer could have just assumed all animations were the same length ... ETC...

I know when i design something, 9 times out of 10, its not working right because of the programmer and his great ideas and shortcuts, because they never care about look and FEEL of the system, just working, or not.  :raspberry:

But the programmer likely is just taking bits of data that other people input.

My guess is the system is something where the animation has the time encoded, but the combo data is stored in a separate location.  So the programmer pulls the animation time out of the animation data and runs the animation, not allowing a new animation to start until the previous one finishes (which makes sense).  He also pulls the damage number out of some database of combo numbers and applies the damage number.  Input bad data into one of those two places and the results are bad, but it's hard to see where the programmer could be responsible for this particular error.

The time occurs off the length of the animations because it HAS to, otherwise you'd be cutting off animations in mid swing and things would be choppy.  Once an animation starts it has to come to conclusion before you start the next one or everything will stutter.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 02, 2008, 08:29:16 AM
In a place like Funcom, with dozens of animators and coders, neither of them are to blame for a bug of this kind. This is a systems designer that has pissed all over the specifications.

My point remains - an experienced programmer would never, ever do syncronous animation, especially not time-restricted animation. That's shit that exists in 10+ year old 2D games. It's the most natural thing in the world to decouple animation from game logic. This was a decision made by someone else.

Edit: pselling.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on July 02, 2008, 08:34:51 AM
The female DPS thing has started to hit my feminist web pages.

The feminists have webpages now ? Great. Whats next, leaving the kitchen ?!  :awesome_for_real:

Seriously, I think this was intended to being with, but they realized it was a shitty idea afterall. The intended feature was to keep tr00 to Robert E. Howards vision of females in the Conan universe and represent it in the game.

EDIT : When you have an animation-based combat system how the hell can you make 1000 animations with 1.42 speed (which has more frames) and not "notice" it swings slower than males 1,25 speed.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Oban on July 02, 2008, 08:59:53 AM

The feminists have webpages now ? Great. Whats next, leaving the kitchen ?!  :awesome_for_real:


Wow, you really are behind the times.  Women use kitchen computers to make their webpages.

(http://www.clisham.com-a.googlepages.com/kitchen_computer.jpg)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2008, 09:40:21 AM
(http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/ratman/kitchen_computer.jpg)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on July 02, 2008, 09:40:47 AM
If I see that fucking cat one more time...


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2008, 09:53:14 AM
If I see that fucking cat one more time...

(http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/ratman/kitchen_computer2.jpg)

Moo.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 02, 2008, 09:55:07 AM
Seriously, I think this was intended to being with, but they realized it was a shitty idea afterall. The intended feature was to keep tr00 to Robert E. Howards vision of females in the Conan universe and represent it in the game.

Yeah, it always comes back to the only real logical answer is that they intentionally did it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Threash on July 02, 2008, 10:35:45 AM
I think if it was intentional females would have simply done less damage per hit.  It seems like an overtly complicated way to make them do less damage.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Surlyboi on July 02, 2008, 02:40:21 PM
Isn't everything females do overly complicated?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 02, 2008, 03:20:38 PM
Isn't everything females do overly complicated?  :awesome_for_real:

and no one ever really understands how they work.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on July 02, 2008, 06:45:08 PM
In a place like Funcom, with dozens of animators and coders, neither of them are to blame for a bug of this kind. This is a systems designer that has pissed all over the specifications.

My point remains - an experienced programmer would never, ever do syncronous animation, especially not time-restricted animation. That's shit that exists in 10+ year old 2D games. It's the most natural thing in the world to decouple animation from game logic.

According to stuff I read on another site, Asheron's Call started out with animation-dependent damage.

I think it is the kind of thing that SOUNDS like a nifty idea, but the end result is ... welll ...

AoC - the only game so mysoginistic that it's hardcoded in!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on July 02, 2008, 07:02:14 PM
It's totally amateur. That's the only way to describe it. If someone told me that damage was tied to animations I'd seriously wonder if they even know how to program.

Now I can see the tool that puts animations together also letting you assign damage and hitboxes and such. But basing damage off of intrinsic properties of the animation like total execution time is just bizzare.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ingmar on July 03, 2008, 05:04:51 PM
The female DPS thing has started to hit my feminist web pages.

The feminists have webpages now ? Great. Whats next, leaving the kitchen ?!  :awesome_for_real:

Seriously, I think this was intended to being with, but they realized it was a shitty idea afterall. The intended feature was to keep tr00 to Robert E. Howards vision of females in the Conan universe and represent it in the game.

EDIT : When you have an animation-based combat system how the hell can you make 1000 animations with 1.42 speed (which has more frames) and not "notice" it swings slower than males 1,25 speed.

If it was intentional, it wouldn't have only been on *some* of the animations. Some of the female attack animations are at the right speed. It is just Funcom doing a half-assed job.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on July 03, 2008, 05:25:09 PM
It's totally amateur. That's the only way to describe it. If someone told me that damage was tied to animations I'd seriously wonder if they even know how to program.

Now I can see the tool that puts animations together also letting you assign damage and hitboxes and such. But basing damage off of intrinsic properties of the animation like total execution time is just bizzare.

Does it mean if I tamper with animations I can potentially create damage hack?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on July 03, 2008, 06:00:38 PM
Does it mean if I tamper with animations I can potentially create damage hack?
As long as the delays aren't calculated/watched on the server side, which i'd expect to be the case precisely due to possibility of such hacks. But then again i'd expect this animation->damage issue to never arise in the first place, so you never know  :uhrr:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on July 03, 2008, 11:33:52 PM
From some vague mutterings I heard at launch, a fair amount of stuff you'd expect to be server-side is actually done in the client.
Oh, and the server logs are minimal to non-existent.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on July 04, 2008, 06:32:03 AM
From some vague mutterings I heard at launch, a fair amount of stuff you'd expect to be server-side is actually done in the client.
Oh, and the server logs are minimal to non-existent.

If that's true, there is not a  :uhrr: that's big enough to indicate how stupid that decision would be.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Murgos on July 04, 2008, 07:17:09 AM
If I see that fucking cat one more time...

...image snipped...

Moo.

I can't tell if you got the joke or not.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on July 05, 2008, 09:58:08 PM
I am amazed how many good and bad decisions crammed into AoC - both technical and design.

Good example - entire zones will branch out if loaded past capacity, if too many people are crammed into single area on a single server it will create multiple instances and seamlessly divide people up. Why nobody ever thought of that before?
Bad example - melee combat is based entirely around circle-strafing. Almost every single soldier/rogue ability is based on landing melee animation, if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 06, 2008, 12:09:36 AM
Good example - entire zones will branch out if loaded past capacity, if too many people are crammed into single area on a single server it will create multiple instances and seamlessly divide people up. Why nobody ever thought of that before?
Cause people already have (see CoH, EQ II, Guild Wars, et al).


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 06, 2008, 01:40:58 AM
Bad example - melee combat is based entirely around circle-strafing. Almost every single soldier/rogue ability is based on landing melee animation, if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee.


Isn't that so in real melee combat too?
No, seriously. It requires a bit of skill. You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. What's wrong with it? Plus, it's not just a 1vs1 game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2008, 03:07:00 AM
Isn't that so in real melee combat too?
No, seriously. It requires a bit of skill. You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. What's wrong with it? Plus, it's not just a 1vs1 game.

Not really. A real life fight is done with real life "rules", not bounding boxes, hit points, and "firing arcs".

But video games by their nature have to distill a fight into certain specific aspects. The question is, are those aspects fun and cool, or lame and unfun?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 06, 2008, 03:30:19 AM
"if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee."

That sounded reasonable to me.
That said, yes I stretched it. But it works in Conan because what I said later: You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. And it's not a 1vs1 battle most of the times so it doesn't all come down to that.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on July 06, 2008, 07:13:23 AM
Not really. A real life fight is done with real life "rules", not bounding boxes, hit points, and "firing arcs".
Well, your own body is the bounding box (albeit more refined in shape), your endurance and willpower to go on is your hit points and your arms define your "firing arcs" -- it's rather difficult to effectively swing a stick more than 90 degree to either side (without the body twist)

Of all things implemented, the position/swing arcs/collision based combat is probably the one that makes the most sense, imo. You do have more control over your body in reality which leads to certain differences, but it makes for pretty good approximation... the whole stay out of enemy's cone while working them into yours thing is quite similar to the spanish circle school of fencing e.g., and small wonder too because mechanics are similar enough.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sinij on July 06, 2008, 07:30:53 AM
"if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee."

That sounded reasonable to me.
That said, yes I stretched it. But it works in Conan because what I said later: You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. And it's not a 1vs1 battle most of the times so it doesn't all come down to that.

It isn't. It does two things - makes snares disproportionally strong, and makes power use highly inconsequential. As long as you circle-strafe it doesn't really matter if you use any combos, often using combos is downright detrimental due to 'rooting' you in place during final triggering. Melee vs melee fight right now is ridiculous to the point of being broken.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 06, 2008, 09:49:30 AM
You are still talking about 1 vs 1.
What's your problem? The legendary gold feathered peacock also known as "Balance"? I guess it'll take some time for them to eventually even out things in duels.
But as far as group vs group PvP is concerned things are more than fine. I don't know if you are basing your comments on a few levels of random ganking in the PvP server or actual field experience with a group. The combat mechanics are surprisingly fun and solid, and although they can (obviously) be improved, I think you are missing the point.

Hell, even a few lousy minigames can show you how deep and interesting the PvP combat is. Let alone border kingdom warfare.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 08, 2008, 01:00:44 PM
You are still talking about 1 vs 1.
What's your problem? The legendary gold feathered peacock also known as "Balance"? I guess it'll take some time for them to eventually even out things in duels.
But as far as group vs group PvP is concerned things are more than fine. I don't know if you are basing your comments on a few levels of random ganking in the PvP server or actual field experience with a group. The combat mechanics are surprisingly fun and solid, and although they can (obviously) be improved, I think you are missing the point.

Hell, even a few lousy minigames can show you how deep and interesting the PvP combat is. Let alone border kingdom warfare.

Your logic is flawed. Saying "oh but its 1v1, it doesnt count" doesnt cut it. 1v1 happens all the time on the PVP servers. If you play on a PVP server 1v1 is a huge part of the gameplay, and I have to agree with Sinji, melee dueling is fucking broken as all hell.

Also, not to mention that the swings arent really collision, it just checks if people are in range at the beginning of the swing. On white damage you cant tell this, but when using combos with a cast time (HoX) if some one runs up to you after you have started your swing, you wont hit them. This isnt a huge deal, but it is a little frustrating.
I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on July 08, 2008, 02:22:45 PM
I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

So now pre-casted insta-Hally-hits are a bad thing?!   :grin:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 08, 2008, 05:16:06 PM
Morfiend,

I didn't say 1vs1 doesn't count. I was trying to point out how good is PvP combat when it comes to grouping or massive battles, which is the focus of the game, but it was probably an accidental derail.
What I think is that if melee 1vs1 doesn't feel right to you (or Sinij) doesn't mean is broken.

So, is melee dueling in AoC broken? Tell me then, is a duel between two melee classes in other MMORPG, say two warriors in WoW or two guardians in EQ2, so much more interesting or deep, or skill based, than Conan's?
I really don't think so, especially because say what you want but there's a skill in all that circle strafing while hitting (some can do and constantly win, some can't) AND landing combos AND using terrain. If you can't see that I can't help you.

Quote
I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

You stay away from your enemy while winding up the combo? Why is that? That works as a opening but when combat is on it's pointless. I now understand your bitterness, you probably lost lots of duels. Those "wind up" swings are FREE damage you are supposed to land on your victim. It replaces casters' casting time which reuires you to stand still while doing nothing. Instead of an empty simon says system where you push 5 button and unleash a combo on the fifth press, you actually generate your combo WHILE doing white damage. If you land a combo after wasting the preparatory swings in the air you are going to deal much less damage than if you "prepared" your blow on your enemy's skin. No need to specify that landing those blows is up to you and your ability to keep your enemy in front of you. THAT IS WHY white damage requires actual range and collision and the final combo doesn't. Because that's the "reward" for completing the routine WHILE keeping your enemy in front of you. If you did it masterful you landed lots of damage. If you can only land the final hit... then you lost all the bonus damage while your opponent was probably being healed by a potion. Same is true for casting: of you were good enough to have a line of sight and the range to hit them when you started casting, then it's a hit (reward) even if they fled afterwards. The game doesn't penalize you for casting while standing still other than making you all very easy to be hit or interrupted.

Why does it gets longer as you level up? It's half a balance thing and half a skill thing. The more powerful and longest the combo is, the more skill becomes a factor in dueling. You can always dowrank and use shortest, earlier version of some combos. Less damage but more hits in less time. Lots of poeple use the weaker attacks while waiting for the strongest ones to recharge.

Why there's nothing like that for casters?  No idea. Magic needs combos too but that doesn't make melee 1vs1 broken.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 08, 2008, 05:29:13 PM
You stay away from your enemy while winding up the combo? Why is that? That works as a opening but when combat is on it's pointless. I now understand your bitterness, you probably lost lots of duels.

Playing as a HoX you have to do this or you dont survive. Maybe I should have prefaced that with "The only melee class I have much experience with has to do this". And no, I didnt lose many duels. In fact I got called out several times for "all that stupid running around crap does not make you a good pvper" after winning.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2008, 01:05:17 AM
In fact I got called out several times for "all that stupid running around crap does not make you a good pvper" after winning.

What's next? Poor Counter-strike players whining because you can kill them while moving instead of standing still waiting for their bullets?
Jumping need a nerf (stamina drain), strafing and circling is skill.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Calantus on July 09, 2008, 01:36:44 AM
You stay away from your enemy while winding up the combo? Why is that? That works as a opening but when combat is on it's pointless. I now understand your bitterness, you probably lost lots of duels. Those "wind up" swings are FREE damage you are supposed to land on your victim. It replaces casters' casting time which reuires you to stand still while doing nothing. Instead of an empty simon says system where you push 5 button and unleash a combo on the fifth press, you actually generate your combo WHILE doing white damage. If you land a combo after wasting the preparatory swings in the air you are going to deal much less damage than if you "prepared" your blow on your enemy's skin. No need to specify that landing those blows is up to you and your ability to keep your enemy in front of you. THAT IS WHY white damage requires actual range and collision and the final combo doesn't. Because that's the "reward" for completing the routine WHILE keeping your enemy in front of you. If you did it masterful you landed lots of damage. If you can only land the final hit... then you lost all the bonus damage while your opponent was probably being healed by a potion. Same is true for casting: of you were good enough to have a line of sight and the range to hit them when you started casting, then it's a hit (reward) even if they fled afterwards. The game doesn't penalize you for casting while standing still other than making you all very easy to be hit or interrupted.

He's describing a form of jousting. Have you never heard of jousting before?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2008, 02:05:09 AM
Not sure I got you and your quote, Cal. He was describing a form of jousting and I was telling him that it works better if you can strafe/dodge while keeping close to your enemy and hit than if you charge in/charge out (plain old jousting).
Either way, I fail to see the broken part.

I think Morfiend proved my point in his last post: he can do that better than many, and because of that he's called a bad PvPer? How surprising! I am sure many of those he killed with his circling/jousting skills quit in disgust blaming broken mechanics. It's like blaming Battlefield 1942 because you have to aim instead of just pulling the trigger, while in the end it's old MMORPGs' fault: they taught people that skill doesn't matter and "time invested" is the only thing that pays off. If something happens out of the box, it must be broken.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Calantus on July 09, 2008, 08:09:15 AM
Well my point is that it's just jousting, that being moving away from your opponent between your big hits so they can't get you with their little hits. I was just pointing out that the whole point of it is to land a powerful hit then run off so as to not get hit by the opponent until your big hit is ready again. I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

On the subject of being broken, it's absolutely broken if a good strategy is to attack the air for a bit so you can deliver a strong finisher. It's got nothing to do with the skill required or the movement going on, and everything to do with the idea that the player swinging at air on purpose means something is broken.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 09, 2008, 08:49:54 AM
I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

That would be completely correct. I was playing a Herald of Xotli, which is a cloth wearing, two hand sword wielding, mage sub-class, that has very weak white hits and very strong combos with horrible defense and hitpoints.



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2008, 09:08:15 AM
Broken you say?
Save for the fact that swinging at air (or moving in pointless directions) has been the system in place to build up a finisher in every fighting game since Street Fighter (1987).
What's the next argument against Age of Conan? "It uses a 20 years old system for combos! It's a bad Street Fighter clone!" Yeah, go on.

And then again, you MUST NOT swing at air. Moving OUT OF RANGE of your enemy isn't a good strategy in melee combat in AoC, because that would make you swing at air. Circling, making your "swing at air" actually land on target is a good one. If you care about not being hit by a player you don't kite by going away, you kite by circling and strafing, which is exactly what Sinij said it's the broken part and I disagree with.

Quote
You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

No. He is avoiding enemy's hits by moving away from them. I said he should avoid enemy's hits by moving around them. That way he can do more damage hitting while building up the finisher AND dodging. With potions ticking heals every second if you don't sustain fire you can't kill shit in Conan.

But I explained all of this earlier. Do you just want to prove that I am wrong or you played Age of Conan enough to think that jousting is better than circling?


P.S: Look back at Sinij post, the one that started this debate. He was complaining about finishers being useless, not about "buildup hits" (white damage) hitting air. Looks like Sinij and Morfiend hate AoC melee for the opposite reasons...


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2008, 09:10:48 AM
I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

That would be completely correct. I was playing a Herald of Xotli, which is a cloth wearing, two hand sword wielding, mage sub-class, that has very weak white hits and very strong combos with horrible defense and hitpoints.



And the fact that your Xotli (1 out of 12 classes) dies a lot when it goes toe-to-toe with a heavy armoured character is proof that melee combat is broken?

I thought that was called "plain old 1vs1 balance issue", but what do I know?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 09, 2008, 10:46:47 AM
What I have been trying to say is that the fact that circle strafing and jousting are not only viable (Yes jousting is viable, cause people can spin and still hit you while you circle) but pretty much required is part of what is broken with melee combat.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2008, 11:06:54 AM
So having to move, strafe, joust, circle your enemy trying to hit him/her without being hit in a melee combat means it is broken?

My god, I rest my case.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 09, 2008, 11:25:31 AM
So having to move, strafe, joust, circle your enemy trying to hit him/her without being hit in a melee combat means it is broken?

My god, I rest my case.

*sigh*

Should I even bother?

It is the fact that the game basically requires me to run away while swinging madly in the air for 2 to 4 seconds before trying to land that one last hit to trigger the combo, THATS WHAT MAKES IT BROKEN!

I wont even start in on the stamina/combos/sprint/melee/caster imbalance or the one hit combos.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on July 09, 2008, 01:02:56 PM
I think that the man's point is that swinging in the air conferring a benefit is kinda silly.  And it does.

You might argue that it would be even better to HIT with those swings, and that's true, but the point is that it IS better to have swung in the air than to have not swung at all.  Which is bizarre.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lightstalker on July 09, 2008, 02:47:50 PM
I think that the man's point is that swinging in the air conferring a benefit is kinda silly.  And it does.

You might argue that it would be even better to HIT with those swings, and that's true, but the point is that it IS better to have swung in the air than to have not swung at all.  Which is bizarre.

In a boxing match it isn't unusual for the participants to circle each other and throw punches that aren't meant to finish the fight in an effort to set up a punch that is meant to finish the fight.  Swinging at the air is just setting up a swing that isn't supposed to swing at the air.  Not a huge stretch of the imagination and not that far off reality.  The difference here is that it doesn't matter if the opponent reacts to your combo set-up or not, the combo still goes off.  This is where the break with reality comes as in a boxing match your setup punches won't lead to a finisher if the opponent doesn't start defaulting to block the next setup punch.

If you see the setup attack as 'swinging at the air' and nothing more you are glossing over the bit where your actions now enable actions later by causing a reaction in your opponent that leaves him open to specific attacks (presumably the one you are going to use in the future).

If you see that your opponent's reaction to your setup attacks is irrelevant then you've seen a problem with the game.

Circle of Death is not a new 1v1 combat dance in video games.  In Mechwarrior 2 the circle went away once you got past the 1v1 engagement as it mattered to show your back to an attacker (directional damage tracking/capacity).  If the complaint is that the Circle of Death doesn't go away when the number of participants increases, I'm right there with you.  If the complaint is that Circle of Death exists for 1v1 encounters...  I don't get it.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Abelian75 on July 09, 2008, 03:32:48 PM
Dude, it's not like swinging at the air right in front of the dude.  He means, like, swinging four times as you run at an enemy from 30 feet away.  I'm sorry, but it's just weird.  I'm not necessarily agreeing that it's a serious design flaw in and of itself, but it certainly is an odd aspect of the combat.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with circling as you fight, though.  Some might argue against it, but it doesn't have any inherent absurdity I don't think.  The charging up of combos as you approach someone does.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Venkman on July 09, 2008, 05:36:09 PM
AoC isn't perfect and you need to suspend a lot of disbelief. But it sure has shit is no worse than melee PvP in WoW. It's just different. You like it or you don't.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Johny Cee on July 09, 2008, 07:40:21 PM
Circle of Death is not a new 1v1 combat dance in video games.  In Mechwarrior 2 the circle went away once you got past the 1v1 engagement as it mattered to show your back to an attacker (directional damage tracking/capacity).  If the complaint is that the Circle of Death doesn't go away when the number of participants increases, I'm right there with you.  If the complaint is that Circle of Death exists for 1v1 encounters...  I don't get it.


What I think the naysayers are trying to get across:


Why should we fucking tie every new game's PvP playstyle to a decade plus old mechanic that wasn't particularly fun when it was released?  Especially one that is so dependent on system performance and machine lag?

Seriously?


Because it's a crutch.  People learned how to circle strafe,  and they want to be able to use the ability to circle strafe in every PvP game that comes after. 

Player "skill" gets narrowly defined as a couple of heuristics dependent on twitch reflexes, and boom you're done.  And it's ridiculous.

I put circle strafing in the same box as bunny hopping and window dragging (remember that from DAoC?  Yah.)....  Or run through to break targeting and interrupt casters (yah,  I confess I did that all the time in DAoC). 

It's making the most of creaking mechanics to metagame the system to win,  rather than design a system that makes the experience more enjoyable via increased interactivity and a broad range of acceptable strategies.

Circling around my opponent,  hoping I don't get a lagspike,  while spamming my most damaging attack?  Ugh. 







Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 09, 2008, 07:46:16 PM
If you don't like the FPS-style combat mechanics don't play the game. There are plenty of other MMORPGs out there with the auto-target/auto-aim style combat system.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on July 09, 2008, 07:55:32 PM
Why are those the only choices?

That's one reason I dislike most PC games, the animation and character control is just so far behind consoles. Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

FPS-style combat mechanics are fairly sucky in general, but especially for games that *aren't* shooting games.

The funny thing is that circling your opponent is a real-life strategy, it's just so poorly done in games.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on July 09, 2008, 07:59:55 PM
Like Virtua Fighter controls would be easier to use in a lagtastic true 3D world  with a keyboard/mouse interface?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on July 09, 2008, 08:51:41 PM
Why are those the only choices?

That's one reason I dislike most PC games, the animation and character control is just so far behind consoles. Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

FPS-style combat mechanics are fairly sucky in general, but especially for games that *aren't* shooting games.

The funny thing is that circling your opponent is a real-life strategy, it's just so poorly in games.

Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat.  :cry2:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on July 09, 2008, 09:03:38 PM
Like Virtua Fighter controls would be easier to use in a lagtastic true 3D world  with a keyboard/mouse interface?


There is already a Korean MMO that has VF-like combat. I haven't played it but apparently it works pretty well. I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.

It's less a tech problem than a design problem. Here is a very simple example: in most console-style games if you attack it stops your movement, or alternately does some sort of while-running attack. This tends to animate better and also prevents people from endlessly circling in that you can't attack while moving at the same speed. In a lot of PC games you have this silly looking stuff where a guy is running full speed to the side and swings a giant hammer at the same time. It looks bad, it looks like it shouldn't be effective, and while I am not a fan of realism for the sake of realism it makes the gameplay rather stupid as well.

It's another example of bunny-hop syndrome. Why the fuck is jumping around while shooting a good strategy?

Show me a single fighting game on earth where you can move and attack at the same time. The human body just doesn't work that way.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on July 09, 2008, 09:14:16 PM
Like Virtua Fighter controls would be easier to use in a lagtastic true 3D world  with a keyboard/mouse interface?

I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.

It's less a tech problem than a design problem.

Agree 100%. However beat'em'ups are in a very developed stage and have had a rather linear progression, there is a couple or a few guys and punches are thrown until death of enemy. It is very simple to take this concept and iterate it perfectly and then repolish it with new tech, chars and environment added. Also beat'em'ups are well known for pushing top notch on the animation front and the combat mechanics. MMO's are complex and I think changing a feature like defensive mechanics seems like a huge undertake for the devs of the MMO's released and in development now and changing that will also require redoing most abilities and attacks which probably seems like a hassle for some, while in reality it isn't for a team of skilled designers and programmers. Even for a game like WoW or AoC to use that as an example.

However I believe with the system I did I have done a massive leap in this department, if we could just get it implemented into a game. Guess we will have to wait for my game to finish to see it. So it is deifinitely a design problem and not a technical one.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2008, 10:41:59 PM
Quote from: Falconeer
What's the next argument against Age of Conan? "It uses a 20 years old system for combos! It's a bad Street Fighter clone!" Yeah, go on.

Quote from: Margalis
Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

[...]

I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.


Told ya.
15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back. Yay autoattack, boo circlestrafing. Yay EQ1/WoW combat, boo Age of Conan's broken and unrealistic one!

You guys redefine awesome from time to time.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on July 09, 2008, 11:15:11 PM
I think that the man's point is that swinging in the air conferring a benefit is kinda silly.  And it does.

You might argue that it would be even better to HIT with those swings, and that's true, but the point is that it IS better to have swung in the air than to have not swung at all.  Which is bizarre.

MMO PvP is all about the bizzare and how it gives you an advantage. It's about exploiting the game mechanics to the nth degree. Suicide ganking? Exploding chests? Making someone disappear with a sewing kit? If it works, it's a valid PvP tactic.

At the higher levels, the same is true of fighters like SF2, minus the sewing kits.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on July 09, 2008, 11:32:22 PM
[15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back.

It may be a step forward in terms of MMORPGs but in terms of other genres it is still way behind the curve.

Combat-centric games don't play like MMORPGs, even though MMORPGs are combat-centric. That's the main point I'm trying to make. Why not look at genres that have done combat well for a long time to see how they differ?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on July 10, 2008, 12:14:23 AM
[15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back.

It may be a step forward in terms of MMORPGs but in terms of other genres it is still way behind the curve.

Combat-centric games don't play like MMORPGs, even though MMORPGs are combat-centric. That's the main point I'm trying to make. Why not look at genres that have done combat well for a long time to see how they differ?

I keep waiting for a MMO that lets me piledriver mobs into cars and throw them through windows. That's all I ask.

As for genres that do combat well, you've got: RPGs  :awesome_for_real:, FPS (and the 3rd person variant), RTS, fighters, vehicle sims... any I've forgotten?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: IainC on July 10, 2008, 12:26:15 AM
Quote from: Falconeer
What's the next argument against Age of Conan? "It uses a 20 years old system for combos! It's a bad Street Fighter clone!" Yeah, go on.

Quote from: Margalis
Virtua fighter has been around for 12 years, we really can't get past circle-strafing as the ultimate hand-to-hand strategy on PCs?

[...]

I don't expect VF in an MMO, but I certainly expect something better than 15 years behind state-of-the-art.


Told ya.
15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back. Yay autoattack, boo circlestrafing. Yay EQ1/WoW combat, boo Age of Conan's broken and unrealistic one!

You guys redefine awesome from time to time.

EQ1/WoW style combat doesn't have to be bad, it's all about the implementation. AoC style combat isn't automatically awesome, it's all about the implementation.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 10, 2008, 01:26:08 AM
[15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back.

It may be a step forward in terms of MMORPGs but in terms of other genres it is still way behind the curve.

I don't get it. We had the same old dull combat mechanic in MMORPG for years and almost everyone was hoping for any step forward. Now that we have it, it's bashing time for it is not as cool as Soul Calibur? Are we still talking about massively multiplayer games here? Should we bash the upcoming SC4 because it has character progression and itemization but not as cool as WoW? Why don't we bash apples for not being oranges?

You guys not only redefine awesome (as in "I am awesome!") but fair too.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on July 10, 2008, 03:25:01 AM
You guys don't get it! Funcom was being true to the movies!  Remember all that Sword-swinging Conan does in the air on cliffs or before engaging enemies!?  See, he was setting up his combo attack, then he'd rush in to destroy everyone.

Clearly you all just hate Conan and are too unrefined to see how epic and awesome the combat system is.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Margalis on July 10, 2008, 04:02:07 AM
I don't get it. We had the same old dull combat mechanic in MMORPG for years and almost everyone was hoping for any step forward. Now that we have it, it's bashing time for it is not as cool as Soul Calibur?

Chill out dude, I'm not bashing AOC.

This is like the guys at shoryuken.com creating a system that lets you play some fighting games online in a way far superior to what was previously done for 2D fighting games, something the HD SF2 is attempting to copy. It's great that they did it but what they did is implement the same sort of system that 3D games have been using for over a decade. So the question naturally arises, why did it take so long for someone (and some hobbyists no less, not even paid devs) to translate what was state-of-the-art in other genres into 2D games?

It's not just MMOs, in general PC game companies don't seem to know how to do hand-to-hand combat, even though examples are plentiful. Instead they take the FPS model, replace the guns with swords and call it a day.

Quote
Save for the fact that swinging at air (or moving in pointless directions) has been the system in place to build up a finisher in every fighting game since Street Fighter (1987).

Um what? You clearly are talking out your ass here. In a few Capcom games you can build small amounts of meter by whiffing attacks, but that's only a reasonable strategy in Third Strike, Alpha 2 & 3 (if you count whiffed throws) and for a few characters in Marvel vs. Capcom 2. (Storm, Cyclops) And for the most part people dislike whiffed moves building meter for a variety of reasons, and I can't think of any 3D fighting game that uses a system like that off the top of my head - not Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DOA or Soul Calibur at least.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 10, 2008, 04:31:56 AM
I am trying to say that in all fighting games you have to complete a sequence of keypresses and moves unrelated to what the specal move will be.
You do it faster than in Conan and you don't have arrows showing on screen while you do it but it works the same way, it's the basis of the concept of combo.
Think about Ken's fireball or rising punch, or Honda's flurry hands or Blanka's missile sweep or whatever. You always had to perform a sequence of "wasted" actions to have the intended special move, let alone the crazy hidden finisher of followup games. What's so scandalous about having to do something similar in Conan?

Tekken, VF and the other from the 3D bunch evolved to the point that combos aren't just special moves at the end of a line of random joystick moves and keypresses, still sometimes you just aim for the final effect of a combo (especially if it's a long ranged one and you are.. jousting). What's so broken in Conan just because you have to perform a sequence for your strongest attacks?

My point:

- Conan melee combat fails miserably compared to any fighting game since 1987. It fare slightly better than Golden Axe but it's a close fight.
- Conan melee combat succeeds in merging some rudimental elements of FPSes and some rudimental elements of arcade and fighting games in the very first western action diku fantasy mmorpg.

Whoever says it's broken in my opinion should get back to Darniaq humble post:

Quote from: Darniaq
AoC isn't perfect and you need to suspend a lot of disbelief. But it sure has shit is no worse than melee PvP in WoW. It's just different. You like it or you don't.

You may not like it, you may be used to something else. You may not be interested in MMORPGs with an action twist. But remember it the next time you'll complain about mmorpgs still being the same shit after 10 years.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 10, 2008, 06:39:02 AM
You guys don't get it! Funcom was being true to the movies!  Remember all that Sword-swinging Conan does in the air on cliffs or before engaging enemies!?  See, he was setting up his combo attack, then he'd rush in to destroy everyone.

LMFAO!

Good one.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: rk47 on July 10, 2008, 08:02:46 AM
Well my point is that it's just jousting, that being moving away from your opponent between your big hits so they can't get you with their little hits. I was just pointing out that the whole point of it is to land a powerful hit then run off so as to not get hit by the opponent until your big hit is ready again. I assume Morph is playing a class with a stronger than average finisher, weaker than average buildup attacks, or simply too low survivability and so needs to do that. You were saying that you should be in melee range to land the hits inbetween but that's against the whole point of what Morph is trying to do.

On the subject of being broken, it's absolutely broken if a good strategy is to attack the air for a bit so you can deliver a strong finisher. It's got nothing to do with the skill required or the movement going on, and everything to do with the idea that the player swinging at air on purpose means something is broken.

(http://www.thenoobcomic.com/headquarters/comics/00079.jpg)

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=79


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lantyssa on July 10, 2008, 09:54:31 AM
Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat.  :cry2:
Aren't you moving to Japan?  Spill once you're on the way to the airport. ;D


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 10, 2008, 10:06:24 AM
Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat.  :cry2:

I have it on good authority that Raph thought HAM was a brilliant idea that would revolutionize fighting in the mmog industry.

In other words, I'll believe your wonderful new idea right after I see it.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 10, 2008, 11:40:09 AM
You mean a revolutionising combat system on top of social dynamics, combined with cutting edge AAA gameplay which will elevate simple play to a level never reached in game development?

It's easy. Leverage the console streamlining for gameplay, combine it with the combat dynamics knowhow pushed by Photek and Co, and BAM.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 10, 2008, 11:45:12 AM
Its so simple!


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Musashi on July 10, 2008, 01:37:50 PM
Yea.  Every time I read threads lamenting the toils of tab-target MMO combat, I think to myself that people are just pining fore greener grass. 

New, next-gen, genre-redefining combat systems don't grow on trees.  Their scarcity is what makes the really good ones awesome.  It seems to me to be a utilitarian process.  Further, that utilitarian process is much easier said/more awesome on paper than done/implemented.  I think that while WE (the hardcore) may be ready for the Next Step in MMO Evolution, there's a fuckton of people out there with their feet wet, still proclaiming that this is awesome like we did when we first started.  And in order for that next-gen system to take control of the market, the MAJORITY of the market has to want it, not just us hardcore, message-board discussants.  Therefore, your next gen combat is miles away, I'm afraid.  It may see first light in the next Blizzard MMO at the earliest.  But not before, at least in any AAA title.  Nobody has either the balls or the money, especially in light of the exodus from Conan.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 10, 2008, 02:00:13 PM
A major thing about an MMO combat system is that it has to include many techniques of combat (melee, ranged, magic, pew-pew et.c.), offer some kind of interesting twist to each and still be very, very flexible as to what's possible to implement. Combat is NOT melee. It's comprised of atleast three, in feel, very different facets. Most games only do one kind, beat'em'ups do melee, shooters do ranged and so on, and can thus specialise their one system for an optimal gaming experience. Still, you don't want three completely different systems, because they'll be very, very hard to balance against eachother if you ever want to use them in a PvP setting. Which you will. Tekken versus Quake isn't very fair.

Conan's system is neat, but it begins and ends with melee. Casting is as casting were and other ranged... has just a gimmick really.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on July 10, 2008, 02:35:03 PM
Bah. If I only could break my own companys NDA on a system I wrote and developed which is going to annihilate the old defensive systems of MMOs, we would have better games and far more interactive combat.  :cry2:
In other words, I'll believe your wonderful new idea right after I see it.   :oh_i_see:

I already have it up and running, as a prototype, and it is superior to any defensive combat system that any MMO sports currently. And this is just one of the systems. I'll see if I can make an NDA for some of you guys if you are interested in looking under the hood and testing my prototype possibly. Then you can either assist my boasting followed by :nda: or bash me till I fall.

Lantyssa : Its a bit problematic you see, I am the owner of the company  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on July 10, 2008, 02:39:57 PM
I think that while WE (the hardcore) may be ready for the Next Step in MMO Evolution, there's a fuckton of people out there with their feet wet, still proclaiming that this is awesome like we did when we first started. 

Don't forget some of "WE" still enjoy the old way just fine, thx.  I'm not alone in this, either.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see something different, but "different" has to also be "well done" to get any accolades from me.  We've had different but sucky, thx.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: photek on July 10, 2008, 02:40:58 PM
You mean a revolutionising combat system on top of social dynamics, combined with cutting edge AAA gameplay which will elevate simple play to a level never reached in game development?

It's easy. Leverage the console streamlining for gameplay, combine it with the combat dynamics knowhow pushed by Photek and Co, and BAM.

I think I'm onto something yes. Sounds retardedly arrogant, naive and optimistic, thats why I'm never saying a word on what I work on or do on any board as we have all witnessed the "all talk, no walk" devs for the last decade. I'll show my stuff when its done and announce when I have things completed instead of yapping my mouth about stuff that will never see daylight. PS : I'm NOT working on an MMO, neither can I financially even if I wanted, but a genre I like to call "Action-adventure inspired PvP / Multiplayer-RPG".


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 10, 2008, 03:27:14 PM
You mean a revolutionising combat system on top of social dynamics, combined with cutting edge AAA gameplay which will elevate simple play to a level never reached in game development?

It's easy. Leverage the console streamlining for gameplay, combine it with the combat dynamics knowhow pushed by Photek and Co, and BAM.

I think I'm onto something yes. Sounds retardedly arrogant, naive and optimistic, thats why I'm never saying a word on what I work on or do on any board as we have all witnessed the "all talk, no walk" devs for the last decade. I'll show my stuff when its done and announce when I have things completed instead of yapping my mouth about stuff that will never see daylight. PS : I'm NOT working on an MMO, neither can I financially even if I wanted, but a genre I like to call "Action-adventure inspired PvP / Multiplayer-RPG".
It wasn't a reply, it was a snarky reference (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13439.0).

Edit;
My point was that a prototype, the world's best design document and everything else that can't count as a complete game/technology are worth absolutely nothing combined.

This is what makes Blizzard different from, say, FunCom. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tmp on July 10, 2008, 04:00:35 PM
My point was that a prototype, the world's best design document and everything else that can't count as a complete game/technology are worth absolutely nothing combined.

This is what makes Blizzard different from, say, FunCom. :awesome_for_real:
I dunno; that is, i suspect out of these two mentioned Blizzard was possibly one that actually bothered with the gameplay prototypes at some stage. And if the prototype is fun then yeah it doesn't guarantee that the full game will be too ... but it's quite a step above doing straight the complete game with no tests whatsoever, and then finding out the theoretical concepts aren't really that fun at all in practice, few months after launch  :oh_i_see:

(of course, the SWG revamp is hovering there as instant counter-argument but welp)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 10, 2008, 04:04:40 PM
My point was that a prototype, the world's best design document and everything else that can't count as a complete game/technology are worth absolutely nothing combined.

This is what makes Blizzard different from, say, FunCom. :awesome_for_real:
I dunno; that is, i suspect out of these two mentioned Blizzard was possibly one that actually bothered with the gameplay prototypes at some stage. And if the prototype is fun then yeah it doesn't guarantee that the full game will be too ... but it's quite a step above doing straight the complete game with no tests whatsoever, and then finding out the theoretical concepts aren't really that fun at all in practice, few months after launch  :oh_i_see:
You are misunderstanding me, I meant Blizzard has the ability to take a fun prototype and make it a game rather than make a prototype and then try to market it... :drill:

PS.
Yeah, I'm trolling a bit. :-)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Musashi on July 10, 2008, 06:12:17 PM
I think that while WE (the hardcore) may be ready for the Next Step in MMO Evolution, there's a fuckton of people out there with their feet wet, still proclaiming that this is awesome like we did when we first started. 

Don't forget some of "WE" still enjoy the old way just fine, thx.  I'm not alone in this, either.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see something different, but "different" has to also be "well done" to get any accolades from me.  We've had different but sucky, thx.

Yea i think we're in the same boat then.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Calantus on July 11, 2008, 12:57:58 AM
Told ya.
15 years old and all. Age of Conan's step forward when it comes to combat has just turned in a step back. Yay autoattack, boo circlestrafing. Yay EQ1/WoW combat, boo Age of Conan's broken and unrealistic one!

You guys redefine awesome from time to time.

You don't get to take the high road in a MMO discussion ever. Have we forgotten Vanguard so soon?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 11, 2008, 01:15:29 AM
Don't tap my poetic vein, Calantus. I'd destroy you.  :drillf:

And no, we haven't forgotten Vanguard. That's why I am better than you: I know when I lose, you don't.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on July 11, 2008, 03:06:59 AM
The Vanguard "discussions" were what melted my frigid heart to these forums.

Much :heart:.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Calantus on July 11, 2008, 03:09:18 AM
This isn't about winning or losing. This is about your pattern of fanboish defence of your FoTM MMO while overlooking its flaws. You were wrong with Vanguard. You know you were wrong, and you admitted it. Yet you still have not learned. I fear you may never learn. :crying_panda:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on July 11, 2008, 05:15:34 AM
This isn't about winning or losing. This is about your pattern of fanboish defence of your FoTM MMO while overlooking its flaws. You were wrong with Vanguard. You know you were wrong, and you admitted it. Yet you still have not learned. I fear you may never learn. :crying_panda:

Some people like our FOTM MMOs. You like WoW, we get it. The jab at Falc for his fanboism is deserved, yes.

It's ok for people to like different things. I logged on AoC last night and had fun. A lot of people aren't. At this point, calling him out of his FOTM love I could just as easily call you out on your WoW love. It is not a great game either.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Calantus on July 11, 2008, 06:13:20 AM
(I am poking teh fun, hence the panda)


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 11, 2008, 06:36:39 AM
Couple things, first off never give falconeer a compliment, it's gone to his head.

Secondly saying a game is great or not is truly a weak argument. You can't say either without opening up the discussion to several back and forth both extolling the virtues of and denouncing the failings of that game. Games are sadly art, not 'quite' the same but close. You can't tell all the people that loved the sims it was a shitty game, or the people who like wow or halo or street fighter or the GTA series or final fantasy.  Those series are all well hated and well loved by many for different reasons but to flat out say they aren't great is complete bullshit. You can say they are poorly made but after that it's just your opinion and your opinion much like mine doesn't mean shit.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Merusk on July 11, 2008, 07:27:17 AM
You can say they are poorly made but after that it's just your opinion and your opinion much like mine doesn't mean shit.

Until you realize folks have said "AOC was made like shit" and then still get lambasted because they don't see the great glory of the game.  It's not complete, what IS complete doesn't work well, if at all and it is firmly in the "shitty game" on my list because of this.  This apparently means I'm just a plebian who doesn't see its greatness because of my purely pedestrian tastes.

Whatever.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 11, 2008, 07:30:23 AM
Also, not to mention that the swings arent really collision, it just checks if people are in range at the beginning of the swing. On white damage you cant tell this, but when using combos with a cast time (HoX) if some one runs up to you after you have started your swing, you wont hit them. This isnt a huge deal, but it is a little frustrating.
I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

Current testlive patch notes:

Quote
* For each attack in the combo chain that you do without a valid target, your end damage (on the combo finisher) is reduced 15% per miss.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 11, 2008, 07:38:16 AM
You can say they are poorly made but after that it's just your opinion and your opinion much like mine doesn't mean shit.

Until you realize folks have said "AOC was made like shit" and then still get lambasted because they don't see the great glory of the game.  It's not complete, what IS complete doesn't work well, if at all and it is firmly in the "shitty game" on my list because of this.  This apparently means I'm just a plebian who doesn't see its greatness because of my purely pedestrian tastes.

Whatever.

Actually I'm one of those people saying AoC was horribly rushed and unfinished. My point is arguing good/bad is meaningless and only leads to fanboism on either side. It's nice the aoc is trying to fix things but I think it's too little too late to aquire the kind of subsricber base they were hoping for.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: rk47 on July 14, 2008, 12:53:26 AM
i'm still waiting for price drop b4 giving it a run. let's hope the 'robo jesus version' comes out when the box is half price.

an empty combo hit? lolz. i can't believe cyclops jumping fierce battery from Marvel v Capcom made it to MMO. wtf seriously.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 14, 2008, 09:00:54 AM
Also, not to mention that the swings arent really collision, it just checks if people are in range at the beginning of the swing. On white damage you cant tell this, but when using combos with a cast time (HoX) if some one runs up to you after you have started your swing, you wont hit them. This isnt a huge deal, but it is a little frustrating.
I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

Current testlive patch notes:

Quote
* For each attack in the combo chain that you do without a valid target, your end damage (on the combo finisher) is reduced 15% per miss.

So what your saying is that I was right when I said it was broken, and Funcom agreed with me? 

[troll] What does that say about everyone who jumped on me for having that opinion? [/troll]

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: cevik on July 14, 2008, 09:03:35 AM
[troll] What does that say about everyone who jumped on me for having that opinion? [/troll]

 :awesome_for_real:

Luckily for me, I had no opinion.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Morfiend on July 14, 2008, 09:11:28 AM
Now a little more in depth. I feel this is a good start to fixing some of my problems with the combo system, to stop the jousting. But I think this is going to require some serious tweaking of the HoX class as jousting was pretty much the only way for them to survive in PVP, as the Hox just doesnt have the armor of HP to sit in melee range for the amount of time it takes to get off one of our combos. Also its going to slant a lot of PVP even farther in favor of casters. I honestly don't see an easy way for them to balance caster vs melee in the game.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on July 14, 2008, 09:48:52 AM
I like the planned changes, including the upcoming "nerf" for casters:

Quote
* The distance to your target while casting a spell is checked again at the end of your spellcast, with a 25% bonus to your range.
* Line of sight to your target is checked again at the end of your spellcast.

That is MUCH needed, and makes a lot of sense. But it'll make so many casters cry whine as it definitely nerfs their unnatural pwning skills.
Plus, meleers are getting a 25% range increase for finishers. So it sounds like a good rebalancing effort for melee vs. casting too.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on September 17, 2008, 01:44:17 AM
This deserves a necro, especially the day Warhammer launches.

Godager RESIGNS (is not sacked).


Quote
Funcom appoints new Producer and Game Director for Age of Conan

Funcom announce that Craig Morrison has been appointed as the new Producer and Game Director for Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures.

Durham, USA – September 17, 2008 – Funcom announce that Craig Morrison has been appointed as the new Producer and Game Director for Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures. Craig Morrison has served as the Producer and Game Director on Anarchy Online for several years, as well as working as the Funcom Community Manager prior to that. Funcom believes he is the perfect candidate to take Age of Conan to the next level. Mr. Morrison will replace former Producer and Game Director Gaute Godager.

 

Prior to starting at Funcom in 2004, Craig Morrison worked as an Operations Executive at the Telegraph group, the respected UK newspaper, taking care of operational aspects related to IT and Customer Service. Due to his passion for MMO games he simultaneously worked as an Associate Editor at IGN’s Vault Network, managing dedicated websites for several MMO games. He has extensive experience in managing various sized teams and complex projects across large media based environments. He has also played, written about, managed, produced and directed MMO games for over a decade by now. With his passion and unique skill-set he brings proven MMO experience to his new position, and during his years as Producer on Anarchy Online he has shown a unique ability to tailor development according to the needs and requirements of the players.

 

“Taking on the position as Producer and Game Director on Age of Conan is a great challenge but also one I welcome. I have a clear conviction I can lead the further development in a good way, evolving Age of Conan into something even better. My main priority now is therefore to listen to, and act on, player concerns, while ensuring we add additional great content to the game,” said Craig Morrison. “At heart I will always be a gamer, and the coming changes and additions to Conan will always be done with the gamers in mind. Together I am certain we will shape an amazing future for Age of Conan.”

 

Former Producer and Game Director Gaute Godager has chosen to resign from Funcom after working on Age of Conan since the initial conception, and he leaves the company after 16 years. Godager was one of the original founders of Funcom, and leaves a large legacy, having contributed to making Funcom the largest MMO company in Europe. “I have done my very best making this fabulous game, but I have concluded there are elements which I am dissatisfied with. I have decided to act on this, and as a result I have chosen to leave Funcom. It is time to get new, fresh eyes on Age of Conan, and I wholeheartedly support the appointment of Craig. I have had a fantastic time these last 16 years, and I am very proud of the many things Funcom has achieved. Funcom and Conan will always be a big part of me, but as I now look to new ventures outside the gaming industry I am certain Age of Conan’s future is in the best of hands.”



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Trippy on September 17, 2008, 01:53:59 AM
You dup'd yourself. Which one do you want to keep?


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on September 17, 2008, 01:57:51 AM
That isn't right, is it?

First I thought it belonged to the Conan subforum because no one cares about it anymore.
Then I thought it wasa good general MMO stuff.
I'd say this one is better. Delete that one, please, which is basically invisible.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: schild on September 17, 2008, 02:12:24 AM
Someones gotta take the blame for making an MMOG with zero stickyness. Glad he fell on his own dagger. Knowing other people there, this is reasonably poetic.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on September 17, 2008, 02:16:03 AM
We all know "resignation" can be a gimmick.

But the claims that he's dissatisfied with elements? That is obscure and makes want to lounge for my tinfoil hat. He was the director, shouldn't he be kinda unsatisfied with himself?
What is going on there, other than an unsotppable subscription hemorragy?



Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Hawkbit on September 17, 2008, 04:49:40 AM
Seppuku has been performed for far less serious infractions. 


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on September 17, 2008, 05:56:58 AM
A long time AO player and friend of mine warned me that Gaute 'ruined AO'...He refused to even try AOC.

I coulda saved some cash by listening to em...ah well, was fun for a while.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: UnSub on September 17, 2008, 06:02:17 AM
A long time AO player and friend of mine warned me that Gaute 'ruined AO'...He refused to even try AOC.

I coulda saved some cash by listening to em...ah well, was fun for a while.

True, but the standard position of any MMO player on the lead dev is that they have ruined / will ruin their game. Players accept the successes of the title as their own, but blame the lead dev for every minor thing they don't like.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on September 17, 2008, 06:53:08 AM
Meanwhile, PVP patch launched today.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Slayerik on September 17, 2008, 07:41:43 AM
A long time AO player and friend of mine warned me that Gaute 'ruined AO'...He refused to even try AOC.

I coulda saved some cash by listening to em...ah well, was fun for a while.

True, but the standard position of any MMO player on the lead dev is that they have ruined / will ruin their game. Players accept the successes of the title as their own, but blame the lead dev for every minor thing they don't like.

Most the time I'm with you, but this particular friend had a very long history and strong hatred for Gaute, for whatever reason. Enough so that he didn't support Funcom in AOC, after playing AO for ages. Sounds like he had some decent reasons to me.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on September 17, 2008, 10:32:26 AM
I can't believe the guy would actually quit after 16 years saying it was because the game he created sucked and funcom would knowingly put that in their press release! I assume something was lost in translation there.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 17, 2008, 10:34:50 AM
Every single bit of flack was put on him by the players (and non), everything, he was the face. Most likely he knew, he could never come back from that, warranted or not. So he stepped down.

He was no longer a viable figurehead or spokesperson.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Tarami on September 17, 2008, 10:49:27 AM
Every single bit of flack was put on him by the players (and non), everything, he was the face. Most likely he knew, he could never come back from that, warranted or not. So he stepped down.

He was no longer a viable figurehead or spokesperson.
Considering he's saying that he's leaving the game industry altogether, it's likely you're, in general, correct. I don't have anything personal against him, but he always appeared kinda clueless about the state of the game he designed... and other things. :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Falconeer on September 17, 2008, 10:58:15 AM
In june he said in the first post-launch producer letter the PvP patch (very basic stuff, like pvp xp, that was supposed to be super-in at launch) was coming out in about 2 weeks. It was released today, 3 months later.

He was the game director. Or he was lying, or he was clueless.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: sam, an eggplant on September 17, 2008, 11:03:19 AM
The new guy was a forum mod and news CTRL-X/CTRL-V'er at the AO vault until 2004, when funcom hired him as a forum mod/community manager. He was named producer of Anarchy Online just one year ago in 2007. Now he's the overall director and producer of AoC.

Now that's not necessarily a bad thing. Jeffrey Kaplan was an uberguild leader before being pulled in as lead on WoW. It just seems like experience doesn't matter all that much.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: tkinnun0 on September 17, 2008, 12:18:32 PM
Was he the guy responsible for the focus on PvP?   <----- that's me looking for a scapegoat.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Simond on September 17, 2008, 12:50:27 PM
Was the fired guy the one who compared WoW to hamburger and AoC to steak?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 17, 2008, 01:35:11 PM
Was the fired guy the one who compared WoW to hamburger and AoC to steak?  :awesome_for_real:

yes.


Title: Re: So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).
Post by: Ghambit on September 18, 2008, 08:36:30 AM
Was the fired guy the one who compared WoW to hamburger and AoC to steak?  :awesome_for_real:

And he's right... only AoC was cooked Rare, nay RAW and many people gagged on the product.