Darkfall "Released"

[Surlyboi]

I actually rewrote the first two stanzas of the song, but then found that much more succinct.

[patience]

14 minutes before the reviewer stopped playing Darkfall altogether he said in global chat: “how do I cast spells…..help”. During his entire time in the game he repeatedly asks: “what do I do?” in public chat.

This part goes back to the community issue. In other betas I have gotten and seen others provide a lot of assistance without being jackasses about it. Darkfall's community has been and continues to be a liability for the health of the game.

[Surlyboi]

This goes without saying. Hardc0res, y0! Tend to not want to help the newbs, because helping them is giving them a leg up and possibly preventing you from azzraping them later.

Then again, I tend to reply to shit like that with, "How do I shot web?" But that's not so much because I'm an elitist hardcore, but just because I'm an immature asshole and I think that shit is funny. I'll probably help them in private chat later though, because I'm a fucking carebear.

[HaemishM]

It's the flaw in open world no protection anything goes design: if anything goes, crushing your enemies into quitting is a legitimate tactic.

No, it's the ONLY tactic. Everything else is just going to leave you open to attack again. Open PVP worlds without map resets will always lead to the lamentations of the women leading to the cancellation of the subscriptions.

[Modern Angel]

Given that the community is part of a MMO then of course their assholery should tinge the review. I almost said taint but thought better of it.

[tmp]

This part goes back to the community issue.

Think it goes back even further; if the game fails to explain the basics to the player, then i really don't expect the "community" to do it instead. A competent designer should take such case (game reviewer repeatedly asking how to do x and y) as clear sign of their own failure, and that 2/10 as well deserved result of it. Instead, they seem to be under impression somehow this is pinning the blame on the player.

[Bzalthek]

Not to defend, but...

Why is the assumption that the reviewer isn't just a fucking moron? 

[schild]

Not to defend, but...

Why is the assumption that the reviewer isn't just a fucking moron? 

At which point did we argue he might not be?

[Bzalthek]

I assumed that was the case when reviewer going noob in public chat suddenly became an indictment against the community and the game for not holding his hand.

[tmp]

Not to defend, but...

Why is the assumption that the reviewer isn't just a fucking moron? 

Judging from his other review, he had no apparent problems with getting his bearings in LotRO expansion. So to suddenly develop brain tumor as result of exposure to Darkfall... well, that's not entirely unlikely, but a simpler explanation would be, the game just doesn't bother to explain its rather convoluted interface.

[Stormwaltz]

You can decline reviews that you know are going to cock punch you? If only developers have thought of this before.

[gryeyes]

Not to defend, but...

Why is the assumption that the reviewer isn't just a fucking moron? 

He very well may be a moron who played the game for 45 minutes. The funny is the disaster of a response by Tasos. He not only makes himself look like an unprofessional douche but he throws down the gauntlet for a re-review. Which after learning that an established and respected gaming dude is going to be conducting it flees in terror.

[Bzalthek]

Yeah, there's no argument there.  I'm not defending this crap, but I read that review, and seriously, it read like he already knew what he was going to say, and merely looked for enough crap to pigeonhole to make it fit. 

It's not that he bashed Darkfall, it's that he did such a bad job at it when its already so easy to do.

[DLRiley]

That. Is. Not. Possible.

[UnSub]

Eurogamer should re-review the game anyway, and give it a 1.

Tasos should take the re-review: even if Darkfall scores a 3, it'd be an improvement.

You can't bitch that a bad review is wrecking your metascores, then say you'll keep the review as a badge of honour.

And yeah, Eurogamer should re-review the game as a matter of their own personal honour.

[ashrik]

MMOs are proof enough as to why I don’t want to have to rely on other people to make my purchases worth the money.

For the record, I do think that 2 hours is too short to review the depth of experiences that can be found in an MMO. A 2 hour taste would make you feel that AoC is a great game with wonderful direction, that WAR is a populated PVP world with tons to do, and that WoW is about killing flora/fauna, that EVE is about spreadsheets or some shit. A company can obviously get the "feel" right but so many other things wrong. I'd suggest that the opposite could be right just as easily. heh I just think it was an unfair and inaccurate review. Although it'd probably only get a 4-5 from a more accurate one. "It's not for everyone" is a very nice way of saying "most people would agree that it is shit".

Did Aventurine think that people were looking up their game on Metacritic? Give me a break. Enjoy the traffic, Eurogamer. I personally wouldn't use my Madden/FIFA guy to review Microsoft Flight Simulator, but that's just me.

[LC]

I think schild should be forced to review it at gunpoint.

It's a pretty decent game for what it is. I think it will turn into another eve if given time. There has been a steady steam of good patches.

And my map is still going: http://map.afraidyet.net

[Arthur_Parker]

If there isn't a safe empire type region, I don't see how it can turn into Eve.

[kildorn]

I think schild should be forced to review it at gunpoint.

It's a pretty decent game for what it is. I think it will turn into another eve if given time. There has been a steady steam of good patches.

And my map is still going: http://map.afraidyet.net

That map is actually pretty useful to illustrate the problem inherent with open world PVP MMOs. Click political. Notice something? Two giant powerblocs. It's inevitable without a 1.0 space type area or simple regrouping that as time goes on, it will eventually be one giant power bloc and a lot of tiny shattered remnants hoping nobody from that bloc comes over and flattens their shit. The point of the design isn't fair fight, it's Win.

EVE has recovery space, and a large enough map to make it a bit easier for a shattered alliance to wander off and reform or create new alliances in other space.  But Eve-China was an example of how even if the system has been shown to work once, it can also fail miserably (essentially, a giant NAP formed and anyone who violates the 0.0 rules gets 95% of the playerbase coming down on top of them for it)

Games need a rule structure in place to avoid what reality dictates: winning. Essentially if the game doesn't hinder continual victory and griefing, you will bleed players over it. Either by exponentially rising costs for holding more and more territory, 1.0 type space where you can't really go after people for spite without costing a shitload, whatever. You need some built in mechanism for defeated players to not be forced into the "log out, cancel sub, play something fun" mindset. Even if it's horribly unrealistic, it's part of it being a game. Being able to completely dominate the other side is fine in a temporary setting like an RTS or FPS. But when it's MMO, that domination needs to end at some point, because the game doesn't just flash a win screen and reset everything. It would be like queing into an Arathi Basin match but the other team has held the field for three weeks now and is just camping the spawn because the match will never end. That's just not fun for anyone.

[tazelbain]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=16163.0 to point to my idea for dealing with this.
Giving the losers a chance to rebuild is why a good part of the world needs to be -pvp.  The problem with safe areas from a player-driven world prospective is that they are static, hard coded locations.  Jita is -pvp, it will always be -pvp and there is nothing can players can do.  Players are not in control of the EvE world.  Obviously that is good because of the wolf/sheep dilemia, but I think you can get past that by giving players the ability to create safe areas in a +pvp world. 

[LC]

They have npc cities that are open to the losers. It's not impossible. The stasis alliance was totally defeated, and now they are on the map again.


And lets face it. High sec space in eve was not where losers from 0.0 went to recover. It's where they went to die. The few that did recover went to npc controlled 0.0 space. High-sec's only purpose was to provide a safe environment for lazy carebears to cause inflation without worry. Everyone else uses it as an oversized shopping mall.

[Arthur_Parker]

So what's the new game on the horizon for all the people that are unhappy with Darkfall?

[DLRiley]

So what's the new game on the horizon for all the people that are unhappy with Darkfall?

Mortal Online 

[sidereal]

lazy carebears

Game failure probability increasing...

[Redgiant]

And I thought Tasos has recovered enough for Round 2. Damn it, I was looking forward to that. Oh well.

[Surlyboi]

They have npc cities that are open to the losers. It's not impossible. The stasis alliance was totally defeated, and now they are on the map again.


And lets face it. High sec space in eve was not where losers from 0.0 went to recover. It's where they went to die. The few that did recover went to npc controlled 0.0 space. High-sec's only purpose was to provide a safe environment for lazy carebears to cause inflation without worry. Everyone else uses it as an oversized shopping mall.

Yeah, keep talking and providing evidence as to why full-on PvP will always remain a niche.

[LC]

Who cares if they are niche. There's nothing wrong with niche. Why do people feel that games have to be watered down enough for everyone?

[AutomaticZen]

Who cares if they are niche. There's nothing wrong with niche. Why do people feel that games have to be watered down enough for everyone?

Mo' money.  Perhaps even 'dolla dolla bills y'all'?

Sure, you might be get rich off a small, rabid fanbase of angry PVPers who spit at any new player who isn't as hardcore as them, but I generally doubt it.

[Falconeer]

Again bashing on niches?

Not everyone is in the indutry to become rich. Some are there to do what they like, some are there to just live by doing what they like instead of the same money by doing something they do NOT like.

Or do you think any writer/director/musician who is not aiming for the masses basically is a failed artist? Any business that doesn't make you filthy rich is worth crap and deserves to die and be mocked?

This is not to defend Darkfall, which I don't like. But will we ever get to a point where we can stop bashing whatever is not DaVinci's Code/Titanic/BritneySpears because they dared to try their thing without minding the money?

Darkfall's guilt is being Darkfall, not being niche.

[Lantyssa]

Niche is great, but a lot of people seem to have a disconnect between "my gameplay style is niche" and "I want a AAA quality product with enough people around to keep me entertained".  Especially when their prefered game is eating sheep.

[UnSub]

Agree with Lantyssa - niche is fine, but don't expect a AAA budget on such a title. Or huge numbers of players. Given that PvP-oriented games NEED a critical mass of players to be self-sustaining and hard core rule sets make such PvP situations unattractive to a lot of players and drive them from the game, creating a niche title in this area would seem to be a project only fools or the foolhardy would work on.

Niche MMOs have been shown to work out pretty well the developers are realistic about what they can do and work like dogs.

[Falconeer]

Hey, I agree with Lantyssa too!

[DLRiley]

Again bashing on niches?

Not everyone is in the indutry to become rich. Some are there to do what they like, some are there to just live by doing what they like instead of the same money by doing something they do NOT like.

Or do you think any writer/director/musician who is not aiming for the masses basically is a failed artist? Any business that doesn't make you filthy rich is worth crap and deserves to die and be mocked?

This is not to defend Darkfall, which I don't like. But will we ever get to a point where we can stop bashing whatever is not DaVinci's Code/Titanic/BritneySpears because they dared to try their thing without minding the money?

Darkfall's guilt is being Darkfall, not being niche.

Darkfall argument for existence, "We are niche leave us alone". Your argument for craptastic niche games "they are niche leave them alone". In the actual game industry NICHE games are NOT inaccessible and have damn near close to zero appeal. Niche games ARE, successful BECAUSE they appeal to whoever is willing to try it. Your typical Mmo niche games (at least the ones you bother defending Falconeer) aren't even appealing to the people willing to install the game, let alone gain any sort of real fanbase outside of the hardcore mouth breather. The ability to attract gamers outside of the initial hardCOrE player base is NOT the hallmark of a mainstream game, its the hallmark of a GOOD game.

[Falconeer]

Your argument for craptastic niche games "they are niche leave them alone".

No.

[DLRiley]

Your argument for craptastic niche games "they are niche leave them alone".

No.

Post history says otherwise.