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Righ
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Reply #175 on: February 25, 2008, 09:04:55 AM

The 4.2 procs per minute is an observed rate at level 70 recorded by procwatch.

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Reply #176 on: February 25, 2008, 11:41:43 AM

The 4.2 procs per minute is an observed rate at level 70 recorded by procwatch.

http://elitistjerks.com/582535-post34.html

I was not speaking about the proc rate, but the effect of the proc a la crusader and lifesteal procs being less powerful.

Regardless, you need a raid stacked very caster heavy for the increase in caster DPS to overcome the DPS from putting another DPS class in that slot who has a pulse.

The numbers shown above for gorefiend are definitely from a caster heavy DPS group. 17k caster DPS on a fight that usually floats between 26 and 28k raid DPS with decent geared people would mean they have almost a 2:1 caster DPS skewing.

But hey, if Nightfall still works for some people that is there perrogative. I know there are shaman who run with 3pc tier2 mixed in with their tier6 because of the haxx 3 pc chain heal bonus on t2.

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Reply #177 on: February 25, 2008, 02:21:34 PM

Warlock lifetap change sounds huge, and very bad.  Instead of 1 hit point = 1 mana point, 16% hps = 16% mana.  Very very bad, this change.

So my warlock is still only level 58 or so, but this seems like a good change to me. My warlock has, even at low levels, about 3 1/2 times as much mana as life, so a 1% life -> 1% mana would still be a win over 100 life -> 140 mana or whatever the ratio is now.  Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong!
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Reply #178 on: February 25, 2008, 03:12:59 PM

Warlock lifetap change sounds huge, and very bad.  Instead of 1 hit point = 1 mana point, 16% hps = 16% mana.  Very very bad, this change.

So my warlock is still only level 58 or so, but this seems like a good change to me. My warlock has, even at low levels, about 3 1/2 times as much mana as life, so a 1% life -> 1% mana would still be a win over 100 life -> 140 mana or whatever the ratio is now.  Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong!

My 70 PvP lock has around 13k HP and 10k mana.

This might be aimed at raid build dest locks who stack more INT than STA. Doesn't bother me.

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Reply #179 on: February 25, 2008, 03:20:32 PM

The problem is that warlock-oriented gear [as opposed to generic caster gear] has a ton of stamina / spell-damage on it, and comparatively little int (sometimes even no int at all). This isn't a problem before 70 as all caster gear tends to be generic with an even spread (except for the green Netherweave set, which is pretty uber for warlocks), but this changes.

You get 10 hp per stamina point and 15 mp per intellect point... but stamina is only worth 2/3 as many itemization points as int, so warlock caster gear has a lot more stam by default as opposed to mage gear which is more int-heavy. Add Demonic Embrace [+15% stamina talent], Fortitude and Blood Pact, and soon enough the warlock's health pool will outstrip their mana pool.

This change makes it so in fact it's better to NOT have those stamina buffs, and warlocks will just start collecting mage gear with lots of +int [and sometimes +spirit, hah]. It's just a bad change all around, even though the impact on warlock dps won't be that big [around 5%?].


-- Z.
(my warlock: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Crushridge&n=Zaphir -- in pvp gear sure, but even in pve gear my lock has a lot more hp than mp, and he's a gnome for +10% int, too)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 03:23:40 PM by Zetor »

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Reply #180 on: February 25, 2008, 03:29:57 PM

I think the major thing is that there is a perception that this change makes life tap scale inversely with gear.  In other words, the better geared you are, the worse you are at regenning mana.

Since life tap is the only realistic way a warlock regens mana, it makes it a big change.  Mages have their gems and evocation, shamans have their water shields, boomkins have their... well, lol.

They could be gunning to change this assumption that warlocks gear for +stam, but that seems pretty harsh to make the entire warlock contingent regear.  The only way to mitigate it would be to retool a metric shitload of warlock raid high-end gear.

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Reply #181 on: February 25, 2008, 03:55:13 PM

I think the major thing is that there is a perception that this change makes life tap scale inversely with gear.  In other words, the better geared you are, the worse you are at regenning mana.

Since life tap is the only realistic way a warlock regens mana, it makes it a big change.  Mages have their gems and evocation, shamans have their water shields, boomkins have their... well, lol.

They could be gunning to change this assumption that warlocks gear for +stam, but that seems pretty harsh to make the entire warlock contingent regear.  The only way to mitigate it would be to retool a metric shitload of warlock raid high-end gear.

My guess is that lifetap/mana tap will go back to being closer to what it was before they made spelldmg/healing affect it. Probably not cutting it all the way back, but with current levels of spelldmg/healing that mechanic outstripped the amount of mana regen blizzard was wanting them to have.

But the changes of all sorts of shit are borked right now, we were doing sunwell on the PTR last night and found that the buscuits from mage tables were not working as drink at all, just food, so you had to drink some other kind of water to get mana back. And the 5 secs before regen starts BS is annoying, esp when there are all kinds of random things that seem to make you stand up constantly.

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Reply #182 on: February 25, 2008, 04:07:19 PM

The Lifetap change is a PvP nerf really. Locks are currently way to comfortable blowing their health pools for mana all willy nilly.

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Reply #183 on: February 25, 2008, 04:09:39 PM

Yeah, that's the problem with it.  With how warlocks are geared/itemized, you will end up with more max health, than max mana.  There's no positive to this change.  It's a nerf.  You wont even be able to downrank Lifetap anymore for smaller HP hits.  It's all or nothing now.  One rank.  No way they are re-itemizing warlock gear.  It's just something we'll have to adapt to.  I am deep affliction, so my pet will still pony up mana for me, but I am not really looking forward to this change.

Seems like it was done to shorten the fights in 2v2/3v3 brackets.

On another note, I've no idea why shaman are being hammered, that class needs some PVP love.  The EM/NS change seems vindictive, rather than reasonable.  Either to reduce *burst* builds in arenas, or to force 5v5 elemental shaman to use their abilities when it is perceived best for the group, rather than when perceived best for the shaman? I can't believe that it would be assisted coaching.  Either way, shaman and ret paladins are burst.  Lessening that, without changing them in other areas makes them less appealing to play.  Neither class is survivable (or wily) enough to shine in arenas if stripped of their burst potential.  Both are easily locked out, as most of their abilities are shackled to one school of magic.

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Reply #184 on: February 25, 2008, 04:33:20 PM

There are supposed to be further Shaman changes to offset the recent nerfs. Notably Totem mechanic changes.




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Reply #185 on: February 25, 2008, 04:44:34 PM

There are supposed to be further Shaman changes to offset the recent nerfs. Notably Totem mechanic changes.





How about we start by not limiting them to a group, and instead make them raid wide?

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Reply #186 on: February 25, 2008, 04:54:40 PM

There are supposed to be further Shaman changes to offset the recent nerfs. Notably Totem mechanic changes.





How about we start by not limiting them to a group, and instead make them raid wide?

NOT

GOING

TO

HAPPEN

EVER


Sorry to be blunt, but I have probably been following what shaman are about longer than you since I raided on Horde back in the Nefarian was the last boss days. Any and all suggestions about changing totems to work on more than the 5 man party will always fall on deaf ears.

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Reply #187 on: February 26, 2008, 05:18:28 AM

There are supposed to be further Shaman changes to offset the recent nerfs. Notably Totem mechanic changes.

How about we start by not limiting them to a group, and instead make them raid wide?
NOT

GOING

TO

HAPPEN

EVER

Sorry to be blunt, but I have probably been following what shaman are about longer than you since I raided on Horde back in the Nefarian was the last boss days. Any and all suggestions about changing totems to work on more than the 5 man party will always fall on deaf ears.
I don't know, wouldn't making shammy buffs raid-wide sort of limit the amount of shammys people WANT to bring on a raid to 2?

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Reply #188 on: February 26, 2008, 06:06:16 AM

I don't know, wouldn't making shammy buffs raid-wide sort of limit the amount of shammys people WANT to bring on a raid to 2?

This already happens anyway, may as well make them useful to the whole raid, not just half of it.

But then the cries from Pallies about Auras would get some traction.. which would then expand to ALL aura effects. I suspect this is the reason it doesn't happen for totems and continues to 'fall on deaf ears.'   What it really is, is that Blizzard doesn't like to explain their reasoning to the general public.  This can only be a good thing for them, because then it doesn't get thrown into their faces 16 months down the line when things change "But you said you'd NEVER..." and it doesn't get them accused of "visionitis" when all games have it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 11:47:11 AM by Merusk »

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Reply #189 on: February 26, 2008, 10:48:57 AM

I've never had more than 3 shamans in a raid, and that's absolute max. We're also Alliance so pallies are a bit more indoctrinated into our raiding environment. Still, raid wide buffs would cut down on a ton of problems I have with the overall utility of that class. How about mana stream totems to the raid? That would make assigning groups a whole lot less of a pain in the ass.

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Reply #190 on: February 26, 2008, 10:53:42 AM

WoW people have no right to make fun of EvE players about their spreadsheets. 

Reading all this min/max crap really makes me understand how neurotic MMO gamers really are.  These people will grind an encounter for days to see a 0.5% improvement in their gear.  It begs for therapy. 

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Reply #191 on: February 26, 2008, 11:26:24 AM

Still, raid wide buffs would cut down on a ton of problems I have with the overall utility of that class.

Shaman are the most synergistic class in the entire game at the moment, and since synergy is the name of the game in raid makeup now it seems odd that you have "problems with their utility".

Enhance shaman give a huge boost to rogues and warriors while putting out very good dps themselves, Resto shaman are the best raid healers in the game with the haxx known as Chain heal, and Elemental shaman give quite a nice boost to mage and lock DPS. This is not even addressing the 20% increase to DPS for 40 seconds that is Heroism/Bloodlust if you have shaman in your raid.

Poison/disease totems are by far the most efficient method for removing single stack poisons and diseases. For less than 200 mana a shaman can instantly remove a debuff from 5 people and any residual effects every 5 seconds.

In an ideal "balanced" raid group at this time you are going to have 4 shaman: 2 resto, 1 elemental, 1 enhance.

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Reply #192 on: February 26, 2008, 01:09:30 PM

That's sort of my problem, you'd need four of them. That's not good bang/buck utility. Needing/Having/Wanting to carry more than 3 of any class is assinine in terms of 25 man raids with 9 possible classes.

Sure shamans can do lots of things, but what's advantage of a elemental shaman over a moonkin? With totems affecting raids instead of groups, the advantage of having one would be huge. To me, shamans sort of trade off abilites with the other hybrid classes. You just need a good balance of the hybrids in varying specs.

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Reply #193 on: February 26, 2008, 02:00:38 PM

We try to raid with 5 shaman at all times if possible. Shaman are good.

Quote
Sure shamans can do lots of things, but what's advantage of a elemental shaman over a moonkin?

Is this a for serious statement? Here's a graff:

Elemental shaman:
- 3% crit
- 3% hit
- Bloodlust (30% haste for 40 seconds)
- 50 mp5
- 100 spell damage
- Utility totems (tremor, grounding, etc)

Moonkin
- 5% crit
- 3% hit
- Rebith
- Innervate


From a min/max perspective, there isn't even a comparison. We bring 5 shamans. We bring 0 moonkins. The only thing raidwide totems would do is reduce the stacking utility of having 5 shamans. You'd want 3 instead of 5 for totems (one of each spec), though might still end up with 4-5 due to how powerful resto shamans are as healers. Of course using things like Tranquil Air and whatnot wouldn't be viable due to it hitting tanks.

Quote
<Trouble> is there any reason to not bring 5 shamans to every raid assuming you can get that many
<XI> because you dont have 6
<manly> 5-6 is standard practice
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 02:13:31 PM by Trouble »
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Reply #194 on: February 26, 2008, 02:53:18 PM

1 - Are you Horde
2 - We don't have that many shamans
3 - My shamans are mostly retarded players who rerolled from the classes they were fucking up on before TBC. There are a few exceptions to this, but not enough to start filling raids with shamans. We do, however, have druids crawling all over the damn place.

Anyway, I see your point, but I hate the fucking min/max perspective because it annoys me to think about and/or try to roster for. I'd rather just raid with people I like and fill in the gaps. Hell, we're 2 bosses into SSC that way and almost done with a 3rd.

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Reply #195 on: February 26, 2008, 02:53:33 PM

I'm a resto spec shaman and have NEVER been asked to join a pug on Venture Co. for either a raid or a 5-man.   I think they've grown accustomed to using paladins since there are so many of them around.  

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Reply #196 on: February 26, 2008, 03:05:48 PM

My resto shaman alt gets invited to kara/gruul runs a lot (the "good" sort run by guilds who only pug 1-2 people to start with, 2-hour no-wipe kara clears = badgefest), and has better pve gear than my warlock at this point. :p Edit: It's usually the same people doing those though, so I got lucky with meeting the right people at the right time... or something.

But then, I'm alliance, and we have very very few shaman not already committed to some uberguild. Shammies are very powerful, and heroism/bloodlust damn near trivializes some heroic encounters. Windfury totem is the best melee buff in the game (a good enhancement shammy can keep up windfury AND grace of air at the same time by totem twisting, giving a ton of crit along with the windfury bonus), mana tide totem is $$$ for healers, and wrath of air / totem of wrath is uber for casters.

'Course, I don't do any "serious" raids (haven't even seen ZA, SSC, or TK yet), but there ya go.


-- Z.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 03:10:07 PM by Zetor »

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Reply #197 on: February 26, 2008, 03:43:17 PM

I'm a resto spec shaman and have NEVER been asked to join a pug on Venture Co. for either a raid or a 5-man.   I think they've grown accustomed to using paladins since there are so many of them around.  

Heh.  How social are you being? I've been invited to 3 kara pugs by various peeps I've done 5 mans with already.  If you want to run a 5 man, just pick one you want, put "resto" in the comments section of the LFG tool, and run some BG's while you wait, periodically do a /4 Resto Shaman looking to heal for INSTANCE X, Y, Z.  Then, if you like people that you've just pug'd with, put them on your friends list, if the pug is doomed and you know it (tank can't hold aggro, mage sucks @ cc, 3 wipes) just say: "this isn't working, good luck guys" and quit out.
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Reply #198 on: February 26, 2008, 04:14:47 PM

Most alliance people/guilds I know of are always desperately looking for even half decent shamans.
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Reply #199 on: February 26, 2008, 04:21:21 PM

Most alliance people/guilds I know of are always desperately looking for even half decent shamans.

Lord knows I'd take a few, we have one in our runs.

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Reply #200 on: February 26, 2008, 04:32:30 PM

Most alliance people/guilds I know of are always desperately looking for even half decent shamans.

Especially non-retarded Resto shaman.

Only ones we get are sketchy as hell, decent players but do shit like have friends play their characters in raids so they can PvP on another account, disappear without notice, or seem to be more caught up in juvenile 16 yearold bullshit on the realm forums while they are supposedly raiding.

The best ones are people who rerolled from other classes they played well, but those are 1 in 100 probably. Hell, we have a rogue who has a resto shaman alt who a lot of us want them to ask him to change mains. He has a real problem staying alive on his rogue, but he is actually better as a resto shaman than most we have seen.

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Reply #201 on: February 27, 2008, 02:48:07 PM

Anyone know why guilds would suddenly be scrambling for Lava Cores?  My GL's gotten tells from all the more-progressed guilds on Alleria, Including Risen, asking for Lava Cores and we can't figure out why.
Everyone's suddenly wanting Accurascopes? :)
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Reply #202 on: February 28, 2008, 03:51:11 AM

Shamans are apparently getting a pseudo-MS [flametongue procs an "all healing done reduced by 50%" debuff on the target, so this is something you'd beat healers up with]. Shamanistic rage is also going to be undispellable, toughness gives 50% snare reduction at 5/5, improved ghost wolf makes it instant cast, and totems are on a 0.5s GCD [not to mention there is a built-in totem timer interface now].

'course, these changes might [in the case of the flametongue change, WILL] get reverted. :p


-- Z.

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Reply #203 on: February 28, 2008, 04:23:51 AM

that flametongue thing is WAYYY crazy.  giving shaman the ability to give EVERY person in your 5 man group a mortal strike ability is SICK.

toughness is a difficult call though, considering how few people would ever spec into it.

The totem timers thing is nice, but largely useless since they didnt give us a nice Totem Casting UI to go with it (yay, we have timers.  we still need 2 and a half FULL FUCKING BARS to stick all our totems on if using the default interface).

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Reply #204 on: February 28, 2008, 05:55:26 AM

Yeah, that IS sick.  They might put a "cool off" timer on it (like weakened soul or forbearance) just to prevent it from being TOO sick.  That or I'm guessing they'll move it to the shaman-only weapon buff.   I know it's helped Hunters be useful since they dropped it on Aimed Shot. (god damn I love that debuff.)

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Reply #205 on: February 28, 2008, 07:07:53 AM

that flametongue thing is WAYYY crazy.  giving shaman the ability to give EVERY person in your 5 man group a mortal strike ability is SICK.

toughness is a difficult call though, considering how few people would ever spec into it.

The totem timers thing is nice, but largely useless since they didn't give us a nice Totem Casting UI to go with it (yay, we have timers.  we still need 2 and a half FULL FUCKING BARS to stick all our totems on if using the default interface).

(sorry to derail further)

Question is in regards to yellow statement - I'm alting an enhancement shaman (lvl 45 currently), and I have points in toughness.  Why is this bad?  Are enhancement shaman still sub-par? (I remember a conversation on this board from a year ago that indicated that enhancement shaman were ok for PvE, but poor for PvP).

I like the concept of a dual-weilding shaman who's a bit on the tougher side, but I don't want to beat my head against the wall on a class/subclass that's (even somewhat) craptacular, life is just too short.
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Reply #206 on: February 28, 2008, 08:04:15 AM

Enhancement shaman are very powerful before 70 (especially in the 40s and 50s, stormstrike + wf + dw = death), but they become a lot weaker when everyone gets pvp gear. They're also easily kitable (this will change with 2.4). As for other specs, elemental has its niche in larger pvp engagements where it can drop huge bursts on someone (weakness being focus fire as they don't have reliable pushback protection and instant casts are relatively weak), while restoration is sub-par all around sadly (they did get a mana efficiency buff last patch, but they're the weakest pvp healer atm, and the easiest to lock down, all you need to do is dispel earthshield). In pve, all three specs of shaman are extremely powerful: restoration shaman are the best raid healers, and very good 5-man healers, enhancement shaman buff their (melee) group by a ton, and elemental shaman have very strong nuking power, comparable to a boomkin, and have better buffs for their group on the side.

Flametongue is also different from MS in that you apply it to the healer, not the person being healed, as it reduces healing DONE by the person the debuff is on -- this'll be a huge thing for restoshaman + dps 2v2s, as you can potentially cut healing received by the target by 75%. This is also why it's going to be nerfed.


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Reply #207 on: February 28, 2008, 08:21:47 AM

A couple points on the flametongue/totem things mentioned:

Quote
# The global cooldown on casting totems has been reduced. It is now 1 second instead of 1.5
# Flametongue Weapon now reduces the effectiveness of healing spells on your target by 50%. Lasts 5 seconds and refresh every hits.

That is the shaman's self buff, not the totem. And it is excatly the same effect as MS/Aimed shot.

GCD is down to 1, not to .5.

Nit pickign aside, the flametongue change will probably be nerfed quickly as shaman will now have a reason to pick up a high dps high speed OH for times when you need a healing debuff. The internal CD for WF was why you wanted as close to 3 speed as possible to not eat your WF procs with the OH. Now with a different weapon spell up there is reason to want that weapon swinging fast. WF will still be on every MH for shaman though.

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Reply #208 on: February 28, 2008, 03:58:21 PM

It's also on the totem now.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #209 on: February 28, 2008, 04:05:21 PM

It's also on the totem now.
Ya I saw that.

Time to do some tests and see if it procs on kitty-form attacks for a dps/utility boost for the hippies.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
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