2.4 changes?

[SurfD]

that flametongue thing is WAYYY crazy.  giving shaman the ability to give EVERY person in your 5 man group a mortal strike ability is SICK.

toughness is a difficult call though, considering how few people would ever spec into it.

The totem timers thing is nice, but largely useless since they didn't give us a nice Totem Casting UI to go with it (yay, we have timers.  we still need 2 and a half FULL FUCKING BARS to stick all our totems on if using the default interface).

(sorry to derail further)

Question is in regards to yellow statement - I'm alting an enhancement shaman (lvl 45 currently), and I have points in toughness.  Why is this bad?  Are enhancement shaman still sub-par? (I remember a conversation on this board from a year ago that indicated that enhancement shaman were ok for PvE, but poor for PvP).

I like the concept of a dual-weilding shaman who's a bit on the tougher side, but I don't want to beat my head against the wall on a class/subclass that's (even somewhat) craptacular, life is just too short.

The main problem with the Toughness thing is that Toughness (and to a similar degree, Shield Spec) for the mele tree are now largely useless talents for mele based shaman.  They are hold overs from the days when a properly geared / specced shaman could serve as a ghetto tank in 5 man instance in the level 60 days.  Now that a shaman has been tweeked into a mele dps class as their mele Hybrid spec, rather then a crappy offtank class, pretty much no one ever uses those talents in any form of PvE enhance build.

The other problem with the idea of speccing into Toughness is that to properly get any use out of it you NEED to be wearing a shield since a shield makes up about 40% of your armor value, and without a decent armor value, 10% boost to your armor isnt going to mean much. Of course, wearing a shield TOTALLY defeats the purpose of being enhance (enhance is either Dual Wield or 2 Hander for DPS, no one in their right mind does enhance with a 1h+shield).

Of course, since Toughness is also a 4th tier talent, it means it would be pretty pointless to spec that deep into enhance just to get the benefit somewhere else (20 pt enhance, 40 pt resto, lol?)

Granted, i have no idea how most PvP enhance builds look, wether they would go for it and maybe sacrifice some points in resto just for the snare reduction.

---------------------------------------

As to the fun factor of playing an enhance shaman, Incarna is my enhance shaman, mostly kara geared, and i have a great time playing her in PvE.  She tears things up, has almost 0 mana related downtime with Shamanistic Rage + Water Shield, and can actually do pretty well on Damage Meters in groups.  Unfortunately, I generally suck pretty badly in PvP, but i have seen Enh Shaman in gladiator / PvP gear put some pretty serious hurt on people.  The class is by no means craptacular, and brings enough utility to a group that having one is usually worth it.

[Threash]

The shaman ms applies to the totem also, that means you can give your whole team ms if you are willing to give up windfury.

[Threash]

Actually now that i think about it its not all that great.  Warriors and rogues can already ms and paladins + windfury are a joy to behold so i cant think of any reason why flametongue totem would be preferable to windfury.

[Chimpy]

Actually now that i think about it its not all that great.  Warriors and rogues can already ms and paladins + windfury are a joy to behold so i cant think of any reason why flametongue totem would be preferable to windfury.

The totem is about as useful as it was before. Which is to say basically not at all.

The weapon buff is super nice for DW in pvp though, fast OH with flametongue means pretty much fulltime MS up without having to do anything but attack/SS when the cooldown is up. And you don't have to worry anymore about your OH taking WF procs away from the MH.

[Fordel]

I can see the totem being hilariously cheesy in caster heavy groups.


Imagine dieing because a priest staffed you to death 

[Typhon]

Thanks Zetor and SurfD, very helpful.

[Fordel]

The only other thing I Would mention about toughness. Is that it would also apply to flat out roots, like Druid and Mage roots.


5 seconds vs 10 is a pretty huge difference.

[SurfD]

The only other thing I Would mention about toughness. Is that it would also apply to flat out roots, like Druid and Mage roots.

5 seconds vs 10 is a pretty huge difference.

I dont know, while i can see the benefit, you also have to consider that it only takes about 3 seconds for most ranged classes to blow you the hell up unless you are in full season 3 or something.

Really, what enh shaman need is some way to close the gap on ranged classes.  Something like a charge ability (call it wind rush or something) on a 5 or 10 second cooldown, that allows us to charge over to someone instead of having to walk all the way there eating fireballs / arrows / whatever along the way.

[Driakos]

With talents, you will be able to instant Ghost Wolf.  My guess is that is the answer we get.  Sure it doesn't break movement or slowing effects... but.. uhh.. Baby steps I guess? 

The MS addition is nice, but with the 15s less on Shamanistic Rage, and the ease with which classes can evade the shaman, I don't see these changes really doing much.  I could be wrong, but nothing in here really makes the shaman more survivable. Rage cannot be stolen or dispelled now, but smart players will just avoid the shaman (kite, CC, stun) until it expires.  Less difficult to keep away from someone for 15s, than 30s.

Or... hell.  Just kill em.  They get focused down quick anyhow.  That's not changing.

At least they are addressing shaman, it's been awhile.

[SurfD]

wait, shamanistic rage only lasts 15 seconds now? WTF.  That is going to put some hurt on enhance mana regen :/

[Threash]

wait, shamanistic rage only lasts 15 seconds now? WTF.  That is going to put some hurt on enhance mana regen :/

It regens double the mana it did before so it really shouldnt affect mana regen.

[SurfD]

ahh, well, that isnt too bad.  still, i think i would have prefered the old version.  longer window means more "chances" for the effect to proc on a hit, and less chance that you waste the whole thing if you accidently pop it just before a fear or some effect that requires you to move in PvE.

[Threash]

Yeah the nerf is mostly because of the damage reduction, i guess thirty seconds of mini pain supression was a bit much.

[WindupAtheist]

I'm almost as excited about these as I am the rep PVP armor.  I hate the whole "I need more cheese, they only sell meat here, I need more meat, they only sell bread, fuck I have 20 kinds of food on my hotbar" thing.  I was eating those Argent Dawn biscuits forever.

[Fordel]

Yeah the nerf is mostly because of the damage reduction, i guess thirty seconds of mini pain supression was a bit much.

That and it's now undispellable. The old version was mostly useless in PvP. "Rawr Rage *purge* well shit".



Have to factor in how toughness works with Diminishing Returns as well. With the CC lasting half the time, it has to be reapplied sooner, which leads to it being put into that 'immune' area sooner. Which nets more time free to move for the Shaman. It's really going to be a *lot* more powerful then most people are giving it credit for. Especially with how druids cheese the roots now in Arena. A lot less time being rooted, a lot more time killing things.

Now of course, the legitimate complaint is where the fuck is a enhance shaman getting these magical extra 5 talent points for it. Because I have a hard time figuring that one out.


But once some shaman does figure out a proper spec with that included, were talking near Arms warrior levels of annoying. Is FrostShock still on a DR timer? That is probably still the largest limiter.

[Driakos]

Is FrostShock still on a DR timer? That is probably still the largest limiter.

As far as I know, it is not subject to DR.

[SurfD]

I'm almost as excited about these as I am the rep PVP armor.  I hate the whole "I need more cheese, they only sell meat here, I need more meat, they only sell bread, fuck I have 20 kinds of food on my hotbar" thing.  I was eating those Argent Dawn biscuits forever.

Not sure if it will help hunters though.  Does it count as a "generic" food?  as to players, doesent really help the stat food popping people anyway, since you will still have at least 3 types of food in your bags depending on situation and class.

[Merusk]

I'm almost as excited about these as I am the rep PVP armor.  I hate the whole "I need more cheese, they only sell meat here, I need more meat, they only sell bread, fuck I have 20 kinds of food on my hotbar" thing.  I was eating those Argent Dawn biscuits forever.

Not sure if it will help hunters though.  Does it count as a "generic" food?  as to players, doesent really help the stat food popping people anyway, since you will still have at least 3 types of food in your bags depending on situation and class.

Depends on the pet the hunter's using. It most likely counts as bread like the summoned food and the old argent dawn biscuits.

[Fordel]

Small change to FlameTongue again.

Flametongue debuff now removes 25% of healing efficiency on the target for 5 seconds and stack up to two times. The duration remains 5 seconds.

Now if they only made MS work like that.

[Kail]

Small change to FlameTongue again.

Flametongue debuff now removes 25% of healing efficiency on the target for 5 seconds and stack up to two times. The duration remains 5 seconds.

Now if they only made MS work like that.

Work like what?  A stackable debuff with a five second duration on an ability with a six second cooldown?  An ability that burns a third of your rage bar but must be reapplied every five seconds or the stack is lost?  I'm not seeing it...

[SurfD]

make MS last exactly the same duration it currently lasts, just make them have to apply it twice to get full effect.

At least, thats what i think he is getting at.

[Fordel]

Yea, having to work up to a stack is what I'm getting at. Give people a little more time if they manage to actually get out of the debuff for a few seconds.

[Paelos]

I keep wondering if they are holding back still on certain things with this patch, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

- Do you think there will be more badge rewards released later on before release?
- Do you think they will retune more of ZA and nerf it down with this patch?
- Do you think they are setting a new arena precedent by having water work differently? Would you like to see more of these departures from the norm in the other arena fixes/retunes?
- Do you think they will nerf down T5 content, or will they just use the current badge gear to let people overgear for it?
- Do you think warrior tanks will ever get decent epic armor that drops in heroics?

Have at it.

[Chimpy]

- Do you think warrior tanks will ever get decent epic armor that drops in heroics?

Have at it.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29238
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29239
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31924
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27822 (not epic but still very good)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32073
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29463
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27804 (not epic but better than epics until t6 content)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32072
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29362


There you go, good tanking warrior gear that drops in heroics and has since they put them in. At least as many good pieces for warrior tanks as any other class gets. The badge gear for warrior tanks is all t5+ quality, and the new pieces from badges (while you dont seem to think they are "good enough") are still upgrades for many people, probably you included.

Sorry to be such an ass, but cry me a damn river, all you do is bitch that blizzard doesn't give you enough "good gear" for the spec you like to play even though they give you super nice stuff for almost every slot. They have effectively made it easy for people to be at a comparable gear level to people who farmed SSC/TK and the new badge weapons are all t6 quality. Maybe they will add more badge stuff, but the few slots they didn't itemize for everyone in badge gear is all in Z'A, which is really not that hard of a zone unless you are obsessed with doing the timed event or have a whacky raid makeup.

EDIT: here is a tanking item from the new heroic, MT: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34473

[Paelos]

Trinkets, weapons, rings, and cloaks. Aye, there's no shortage of items for the warrior tank on that end, or any tank for that matter.

That armor though? There are higher ranked blues, not to mention that all gets replaced in the first level of kara stuff.

Here's where my point comes from, off the last guy in Heroic MT:

They are releasing a 125 ilvl cloth chestpiece. It's roughly on par with a Hydross piece. They are also releasing a 125 ilvl plate DPS chestpiece, and a 125 ilvl mail DPS chestpiece, and leather DPS shoulders, spell mace, DW sword, and DW ax. All the bigtime items are DPS. There's no tanking and no healing stuff off the top end. There's 2-3 healing pieces off the other 3 bosses. The rest is all DPS stuff.

They gave tanks stuff, I know that. They gave us a trinket in this one. It's a nice trinket, but still. Where's the balance? Why do they release new stuff so overloaded with one particular kind of loot? Why do they make the best items in the new heroic DPS and DPS only? I hate the imbalance of new content so that one part, tanks, healing, or DPS, gets shafted.

[Dren]

I have said it a lot, but will say it again.  Blizzard has designed and continues to support this game to cater to the zerg mentality.

Defense and healing are second thoughts.  They are also countered very easily without much in the way of recovery.

The result?  Look at how imbalanced the population is with regards to healers and tanks.  At least in PvE you have a place.  In PvP, you're an anomoly.

[SurfD]

That armor though? There are higher ranked blues, not to mention that all gets replaced in the first level of kara stuff.

I may not be an expert on warrior tanking, but i thought armor wasnt quite THAT important for warriors.  Armor value in itemization would be less important then block / parry / dodge stats, since Wars are usually all about the mitigation through avoidance thing arent they?  Druid tanks need high Armor values, since all they get are Armor and Dodge as damage mitigation.

[WindupAtheist]

The result?  Look at how imbalanced the population is with regards to healers and tanks.  At least in PvE you have a place.  In PvP, you're an anomoly.

I'm under the impression that people love healers in PVP, even if they do tend to get kerpwned first for the same reason.  As for tanks, yeah, you can't tank a player.  /shrug

[Ratman_tf]

The result?  Look at how imbalanced the population is with regards to healers and tanks.  At least in PvE you have a place.  In PvP, you're an anomoly.

I'm under the impression that people love healers in PVP, even if they do tend to get kerpwned first for the same reason.  As for tanks, yeah, you can't tank a player.  /shrug

Horde tend to have damn good healers, and steamroll Alliance for it.

They can make a Battleground, for sure.

[Jayce]

I may not be an expert on warrior tanking, but i thought armor wasnt quite THAT important for warriors.  Armor value in itemization would be less important then block / parry / dodge stats, since Wars are usually all about the mitigation through avoidance thing arent they?  Druid tanks need high Armor values, since all they get are Armor and Dodge as damage mitigation.

Once warriors get to 490 defense (the "cap") their best bet is to stack stamina and armor.  Avoidance can be bad in large amounts because warriors rely on being hit to build rage.

[Zetor]

About the 'healers in pvp' thing: I play BGs with my (pve specced, though I have semi-decent pvp gear, about 300 resil) resto shaman, and while I can usually keep multiple people up, the ultimate caveat is that as a healer, you depend on the rest of the team to not suck, you are as effective as the people you're healing. When competent alliance are playing in a BG, I typically hang around the better-geared ones as they lead the charge and we win; but sadly, most pug BGs end up with clueless people who throw themselves against superior horde forces one-by-one, expect me to keep them healed and yell "WHERE ARE MY HEALS NUB" without noticing the two rogues, a hunter, a warlock and a mage chewing on my face. Oh yeah, and me outdamaging 1/2 the alliance team even though I spend 95% of my time in the bg healing and the rest of the group is content to farm kills near stables when we're 4capped. /rant

As an aside, resto shamans can kill pretty much any equally-geared class 1v1, even (non-sl/sl) warlocks, especially if I can use all of my cooldowns; same with discipline priests and maybe even resto/balance (dreamstate) droods, pallies are a bit shafted when it comes to fighting casters. The important thing to note here is that it takes 4+ minutes to do it (unpractical when trying to 'ninja' a node in AB), and strictly 1v1 - a single heal from an enemy caster on a warrior will probably mean I'm dead anyway.


-- Z.

[Dren]

Zetor beat me to the punch.  Yes, healers are loved in PvP, but they are not respected.  We typically have a hard time fending for ourselves since we are, you know, healing you.  So, when the majority of the BG'ers are calling for heals, but ignoring the fact that their healers are getting mauled, I know it is time for a break from PvP for my healer.

When I take my healer into PvP and I heal for a competent group, the game just sings for me.  That is really only 25% of the time though.  Most of the time it is as Zetor described.  My special pet peeve is people moving further and further away from the nodes so they get out of my range.  They just can't seem to figure out that is exactly what the enemy wants (and the whole reason they are backing up as they fight.)

Healers:
To counter this zerg mentality I would like to see healers become a bit more self preserving at least for surviving.  I don't need to be able to solo people to death, but I gear and spec for healing, so let me do that.  Every class has multiple ways to shut me down from the one thing I'm built for with very little defense to it.  Another clue to the "Offense is King" mentality is looking at the timers for defensive and offensive abilities/powers.  Defensive timers are way longer than offensive for the most part.

Tanks:
Yes, you can't tank a player in terms of agro management, but it would be nice to see tanks serve the purpose of defense in some way.  I'd like to see them be able to intercept damage for others, block charges, restore enemy CC (slap people out of it, intercept that stun/spell-lock, etc.)  Tanks, in my mind, could be the counter to the zerg mentality and a perfect combo with Healers since they need protecting.  To make this style of fighting have an Achille's heal of sorts: do some on the order of CoH with "planting."  Increase your defense abilities, but not be able to move or limit movement/combat speed.  Make actual damage be minimal so they, again, can't really be solo killers, but can keep a group alive, awake, and viable for longer or just hold that node long enough for support to arrive.

Today, tank specced characters are the ones you just ignore throughout the fight and kill last.

[Jayce]

On the most recent Blizzcast, they once again mentioned the idea of letting tanks taunt players, ie simply move their focus off their current target and onto the tank.  Once again they gave the ridiculous excuse that they don't want to add another form of cc to the game.

Firstly, that's the lightest form of cc conceivable (all you have to do is move your target back), and secondly, fucking mind control is OK but not taunt?  MIND CONTROL???

[MrHat]

On the most recent Blizzcast, they once again mentioned the idea of letting tanks taunt players, ie simply move their focus off their current target and onto the tank.  Once again they gave the ridiculous excuse that they don't want to add another form of cc to the game.

Firstly, that's the lightest form of cc conceivable (all you have to do is move your target back), and secondly, fucking mind control is OK but not taunt?  MIND CONTROL???

Ya, it would work like the rogue's 'distract' already does in PVP, you target the ground w/ a center spot and anyone in the radius of the target switch their view to that spot.  I don't see the different with letting them use it in PVP.

[Valmorian]

On the most recent Blizzcast, they once again mentioned the idea of letting tanks taunt players, ie simply move their focus off their current target and onto the tank.  Once again they gave the ridiculous excuse that they don't want to add another form of cc to the game.

Firstly, that's the lightest form of cc conceivable (all you have to do is move your target back), and secondly, fucking mind control is OK but not taunt?  MIND CONTROL???

Not to mention that this same function, less the retargeting, already exists in WoW PvP.  Hunters that feign death cause players to lose their targetting on them.