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Author Topic: 2.4 changes?  (Read 154846 times)
Dren
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Reply #105 on: February 18, 2008, 06:20:56 AM

I'm actually glad they are putting new badge items up and let us know about it.  I'm building my stock of badges up again from Kara and holding onto them for now just to see.  Yes, there are plenty of upgrades for me on the vendor now, but I can wait until the patch since I'm fully decked in Kara purples now.

We'll just continue to farm Kara for badges and finishing out everyone's gear to move on to ZA.  I'd guess we'll be running ZA full on once the patch hits with the Sunwell.  We might be at Sunwell when the expansion hits.  We're a casual 10-person or less raid guild, so we're always a patch/expansion behind.

We dabble in some of the 25-man raids, but through alliances with other people from other guilds.  I've done a few Mags and Gruul's.  I've come to decide that unless we do a full raid with just our own guild, I'm not doing that anymore.  I really do despise 25-man runs.  I'll support our guild through them, but I'm not signing up for it otherwise.
Mazakiel
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Reply #106 on: February 18, 2008, 06:43:10 AM

I love the 10 man instances.  Love love love.  The 25-mans though, just aren't fun at all.  I can't imagine what the 40-mans would have been like, but I've decided I'm rather glad I never did them.  Sadly, the raiding alliance I'm in is phasing out doing the 10 mans to focus on the 25-mans.  Between that and a bunch of other issues, my interest in raiding has plummeted.  I know it'll never happen, but I wish Blizzard would focus more on 10 mans for a lot of stuff as opposed to the way it seems now. 
Dren
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Reply #107 on: February 18, 2008, 06:52:48 AM

I love the 10 man instances.  Love love love.  The 25-mans though, just aren't fun at all.  I can't imagine what the 40-mans would have been like, but I've decided I'm rather glad I never did them.  Sadly, the raiding alliance I'm in is phasing out doing the 10 mans to focus on the 25-mans.  Between that and a bunch of other issues, my interest in raiding has plummeted.  I know it'll never happen, but I wish Blizzard would focus more on 10 mans for a lot of stuff as opposed to the way it seems now. 

Completely agree.  I did do a 40 - man once back in the day.  Once.

Yeah, it is as bad as you can imagine and more.
Rasix
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Reply #108 on: February 18, 2008, 06:59:19 AM

Some boss fights I enjoyed in the 40 man, but everything else was hell. 

Looks like my super casual guild is getting bled dry by people leaving to raiding guilds and is planning to dissolve.  I guess there's actually some nice options out there now with guilds that raid, but only do it on a sign up basis and it's not a requirement.   Ohhhhh, I see.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 07:00:59 AM by Rasix »

-Rasix
Selby
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Reply #109 on: February 18, 2008, 08:19:53 AM

40 mans were the devil.  Just getting 40 people together was hate.  Then the whole issue of loot, DKP, tanking, healing, DPS, paying attention during the long boring fight for the one second you needed to do your job right (otherwise the group wiped), etc.  I much prefer the 10-man stuff just because it is easier to get 10 people together who actually give a damn rather than 40.  But then I'd rather just not raid ever again after the fun that was MC, BWL, AQ, etc...
Fabricated
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Reply #110 on: February 18, 2008, 08:26:00 AM

I love the 10 man instances.  Love love love.  The 25-mans though, just aren't fun at all.  I can't imagine what the 40-mans would have been like, but I've decided I'm rather glad I never did them.  Sadly, the raiding alliance I'm in is phasing out doing the 10 mans to focus on the 25-mans.  Between that and a bunch of other issues, my interest in raiding has plummeted.  I know it'll never happen, but I wish Blizzard would focus more on 10 mans for a lot of stuff as opposed to the way it seems now. 
The entry level raids in the next expansion are all 10-mans I think. 4 of them too.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Mazakiel
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Reply #111 on: February 18, 2008, 08:29:53 AM

I'd consider that great news, then.  Hopefully that's how it pans out. 
Merusk
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Reply #112 on: February 18, 2008, 09:14:00 AM

My biggest problem with 10-mans is it fucks certain classes/ specs right in the ass.  Too many classes & specs to limit it down to just 10 people.  Hell, even in 25-mans you often have a hard time justifying certain classes because you NEED x number of tanks/ healers/ ranged or melee dps.

Honestly, the whole 'have to provide a challenge' thing is what causes 99% of the cockblocks in MMO design.  Of course, without those cockblocks the fear is that word of mouth would destroy the game because, "It's too easy."   Fucking elitist gamer doucebags.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Fabricated
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Reply #113 on: February 18, 2008, 10:07:49 AM

I'd consider that great news, then.  Hopefully that's how it pans out. 
Again, I recall that...they've said quite a few times that Naxx-Redux is the introductory 25-man raid, and that there's going to be 4 new 10-mans out of the box. I'm assuming two 10-mans per "tier" of gear and then Naxx-Redux and whatever the new Gruul/Mag is. At least I hope that's how it works, since having 10-mans follow a 25-man would be kinda fucked up.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Paelos
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Reply #114 on: February 18, 2008, 10:07:56 AM

I agree the dragonhawk trash is dumb but by and large it's a fun and cool instance, and I can't even imagine taking 2 days to do through it. To be fair, I did it with a raid leader who knew the stuff already but it wasn't nearly as time consuming as Kara. I'm not mocking your ability as a player, I just wonder at your constant insistence that the raids are shit and not fun, and the fact that you continue to do them.

I do them for the same reason everyone does raids. I want to see something new. I have hopes that the next boss fight will be fun and challenging. Some of my favorites so far have been:

The Chess Event, Shade of Aran, Illhoof, Netherspite, Maulgar, Hydross, Lurker, and the Eagle Boss in ZA. All of those were fun, and different, and they had something new that challenged us to play differently than the simple tank and spank fights of the past.

Kara right now has been nerfed back to the stone age. You don't have to be geared at all to start racking up kills in there currently. You'll get many upgrades. ZA at the moment is much faster IF you've got a group that's not really hunting any upgrades from the place until the last bosses. If you don't have that, it's brutal. There's certainly not more trash than Kara, but the trash that is there generally isn't a barrel of monkeys. The trash to the Bear and Eagle boss, I have no problem with those at all. The trash to the Dragonhawk and Lynx, however, just makes me cringe. The scouts don't need to respawn, or at the very least no where near as fast. They are trouble enough just walking around. The lynx doesn't need like 10-15 trash pulls before you get to fight the boss. The Bear has 5. The Eagle has 6 in a gauntlet. Hell, even the dragonhawk only has 4-5 standing groups before you get to the boss, and a bunch of patrolling mobs.

Basically, it always boils down to inconsistent trash mobs for me. I'd like to see some uniformity in the pacing of the instance, not quick stuff followed by horribly long/annoying stuff.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Ratman_tf
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Reply #115 on: February 18, 2008, 11:04:12 AM

 Fucking elitist gamer doucebags.

I wouldn't mind so much if you could solo-group-raid at equal levels of "reward" (Purpz, pat on the back, shiny badges, whatever-the-fuck)

But then the raider types get their panties in a wad.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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Chenghiz
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Reply #116 on: February 18, 2008, 12:10:05 PM

Basically, it always boils down to inconsistent trash mobs for me. I'd like to see some uniformity in the pacing of the instance, not quick stuff followed by horribly long/annoying stuff.

Ok, that's understandable. There's a way to skip a pretty sizable number of mobs before Lynx by jumping through huts and stuff that you might be able to find if you poke around a bit.

Quote
I love the 10 man instances.  Love love love.  The 25-mans though, just aren't fun at all.  I can't imagine what the 40-mans would have been like, but I've decided I'm rather glad I never did them.  Sadly, the raiding alliance I'm in is phasing out doing the 10 mans to focus on the 25-mans.  Between that and a bunch of other issues, my interest in raiding has plummeted.  I know it'll never happen, but I wish Blizzard would focus more on 10 mans for a lot of stuff as opposed to the way it seems now.
I did a lot of 40-man raiding back in vanilla and it really wore me down. After some Kara I tried SSC and it was just remarkable how much less fun the 25-man setting was compared to 10-man. Apart from the one-shot stuff like Gruul and Mag, I have no desire to do anything bigger than 10-man ever again.
Calantus
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Reply #117 on: February 18, 2008, 12:23:30 PM

Honestly, the whole 'have to provide a challenge' thing is what causes 99% of the cockblocks in MMO design.  Of course, without those cockblocks the fear is that word of mouth would destroy the game because, "It's too easy."   Fucking elitist gamer doucebags.

For certain types of gamers there's no point playing any game if it's too easy. There's just... no point at all. I can't see how that is elitist.
Nebu
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Reply #118 on: February 18, 2008, 12:52:23 PM

For certain types of gamers there's no point playing any game if it's too easy. There's just... no point at all. I can't see how that is elitist.

All MMO PvE is easy.  All of it.  It just takes time.  The elitests that claim to be star players are often stars because they're the only ones able to commit the crazy amounts of time necessary to complete an encounter. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Dren
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Reply #119 on: February 18, 2008, 01:02:16 PM

My biggest problem with 10-mans is it fucks certain classes/ specs right in the ass.  Too many classes & specs to limit it down to just 10 people. 

I don't know if you are including Karazhan as it is today, but I really don't see much of this.  Yes, you need to have a certain amount of tank/heal/cc, but the formula isn't as hard-set as you imply.  We've been taking a wide range of different alts/classes into Karazhan and being successful.

Of course, some mixes of classes do much better than others, but they are not comletely locked out of there.  I can't speak to ZA as I haven't been yet.

The 25-mans I've been on were completely different.  If you didn't have x healers and y tanks and z CC and blah blah, then you might as well give up.  I thought it was much worse with this respect.

I know Karazhan was much more strict upon release, so maybe this is how ZA is and will tame down later.  That's kind of how Blizzards works things anyway.  That's fine with me.  The badges flow from Karazhan just as well as ZA, actually probably better.
Jayce
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Reply #120 on: February 18, 2008, 01:13:16 PM

For certain types of gamers there's no point playing any game if it's too easy. There's just... no point at all. I can't see how that is elitist.

All MMO PvE is easy.  All of it.  It just takes time.  The elitests that claim to be star players are often stars because they're the only ones able to commit the crazy amounts of time necessary to complete an encounter. 

I was thinking the same thing.  It's not like they practice tanking, healing etc in their offtime to get better at game time.

More specifically, it's having long periods of time at a stretch which some people count as skill.  One reason I like WoW is that there are certain things I can do but still exit the game at the drop of a hat if my kids wake up or something.  If jobless losers and teenagers have a great advantage in getting gear because they can catass for 10 hours a day, I can't see how that makes the game more elite- it just skews it toward the wrong demographic.

The fact that I can get epix by gathering mats (crafting), 5 man heroics (short stints) and PvP mitigates that in the specific case of WoW, but those are the methods people like to call "welfare".  Whatever - my sub money's as good as theirs  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Witty banter not included.
Simond
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Reply #121 on: February 19, 2008, 06:02:14 AM

Third-hand info from Test (pinch of salt, etc):
Quote
Advantage for solo folks, the new dailies have about 4 which give out "shattered sun supplies" or somesuch.  It's a box with a green in it and about 20% of the ones I've gotten have also had a badge of justice.  So you can solo trickle accumulate badges.

 awesome, for real

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Oban
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Reply #122 on: February 19, 2008, 06:40:39 AM

That sounds great and all, but I will wait until Badges of Justice are found in junkboxes that I can pickpocket off of mobs in Netherstorm.

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Xanthippe
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Reply #123 on: February 19, 2008, 12:23:52 PM

Four dailies give out something with a 20% chance of a badge, but to buy crap with badges you need 50 or 100 badges.  So if you do dailies every single day and get one per day, you can get something after 50 days.

Solo trickle is right.

Phred
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Reply #124 on: February 19, 2008, 01:58:41 PM

Four dailies give out something with a 20% chance of a badge, but to buy crap with badges you need 50 or 100 badges.  So if you do dailies every single day and get one per day, you can get something after 50 days.

Solo trickle is right.



Isn't the solo mantra slower/harder but doable?

Nebu
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Reply #125 on: February 19, 2008, 02:36:19 PM

Isn't the solo mantra slower/harder but doable?

I think the solo mantra is to either reroll or to /cancel.  The best of the solo game ends when you hit level 70.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Paelos
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Reply #126 on: February 19, 2008, 03:23:55 PM

Is it just me, or do the Badge Rewards they released scream, "I hope you weren't expecting much!"

I'm very underwhelmed by them compared to the previous badge rewards they released.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Chimpy
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Reply #127 on: February 19, 2008, 03:35:13 PM

Is it just me, or do the Badge Rewards they released scream, "I hope you weren't expecting much!"

I'm very underwhelmed by them compared to the previous badge rewards they released.

Oh I don't know, gear that is on the level of or better than gear off the non-pinata bosses in BT and hyjal for doing kara and saving badges between now and patch time?


That crossbow is the best ranged weapon for BM hunters/rogues/DPS warriors in the game. The mail legs are basically a slightly different stat allocation/1 less socket version of the best Enhance shaman/hunter legs in the game, the healing mace is on par with Hyjal loot, oh and the melee ring is basically a twin to the Z'A timed event ring which is one of the top 3 rings in the game for hunters and rogues atm.

Not underwhelming at all tbh. I am actually surprised the stuff is so cheap, esp considering how much easier badges will be to get, and with vortices being non-bound and buyable via badges, every ret pally/warrior with a little bit of gold will be running around with a damn annoyin-herald now.

If you play a tanking warrior, sure, the badges are not as stellar an upgrade over the last batch of badge gear, but that gear was better than tier5 for doing kara. And the new stuff is still nice.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Paelos
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Reply #128 on: February 19, 2008, 08:27:50 PM

Yeah, I'm a tanking warrior. The gear is actually a side-grade.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Phred
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Reply #129 on: February 19, 2008, 10:23:15 PM

Yeah, I'm a tanking warrior. The gear is actually a side-grade.

I guess everyone get's ignored occasionally then. The last round of badge gear was pretty insipid for hunters.
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #130 on: February 19, 2008, 11:06:31 PM

Yeah, I'm a tanking warrior. The gear is actually a side-grade.

I guess everyone get's ignored occasionally then. The last round of badge gear was pretty insipid for hunters.


Oh I totally agree, but I wonder why the hell you even bother putting the gear in there in the first place? I would have been ragingly pissed off with nothing, but I'm disillusioned with what we got.

It's a side-grade of emotions in a way as well.  ACK!

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Phred
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Reply #131 on: February 20, 2008, 03:37:39 AM

Yeah, I'm a tanking warrior. The gear is actually a side-grade.

Oh I totally agree, but I wonder why the hell you even bother putting the gear in there in the first place? I would have been ragingly pissed off with nothing, but I'm disillusioned with what we got.

It's a side-grade of emotions in a way as well.  ACK!

Why put it in? Because somewhere there's some guy who's gonna loudly post all over the general and warrior forums how superior that gear is to everything else available. Just like the people who insisted AQ40 hunter set gear was an upgrade over t2.

Slyfeind
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Reply #132 on: February 20, 2008, 04:10:57 AM

Some boss fights I enjoyed in the 40 man, but everything else was hell. 

Strangely, I liked everything about 40-mans, except the fights. There was something strange yet cool about being in a small army, one person only spoke French, while a French-Canadian had to translate for him, three married couples, one couple of which has a daughter who is also in the raid, a couple people who have been playing MMOs together since UO beta...it was like a reality show!

For certain types of gamers there's no point playing any game if it's too easy. There's just... no point at all. I can't see how that is elitist.

Yeah, I'd say players who like to be challenged aren't playing WoW.

"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want.  Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
MrHat
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Reply #133 on: February 20, 2008, 04:21:46 AM

Patch notes were updated again.

Nature’s Swiftness and Elemental Mastery now share a 10 second cooldown.  - Shaman pwnd.
Nebu
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Reply #134 on: February 20, 2008, 11:18:22 AM

Patch notes were updated again.

Nature’s Swiftness and Elemental Mastery now share a 10 second cooldown.  - Shaman pwnd.


Yeah, because shamen are too dominant a pvp force and desperately needed a nerf. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #135 on: February 20, 2008, 11:31:05 AM

At least ghost wolf is instant cast w/ talents.  That's a nice change for the leveling shaman.
Righ
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Reply #136 on: February 20, 2008, 11:33:03 AM

At the upper end, and in a team they are pretty crazy. This is really being done to deal with the well-geared 40/0/21 build in arenas, and its an example of how all the arena balancing has a detrimental effect on 'lesser' geared people in different play.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Nebu
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Reply #137 on: February 20, 2008, 11:43:17 AM

At the upper end, and in a team they are pretty crazy. This is really being done to deal with the well-geared 40/0/21 build in arenas, and its an example of how all the arena balancing has a detrimental effect on 'lesser' geared people in different play.

I don't buy it.  Compare the number of 2k+ rated shamen to that of rogues, paladins, druids, warriors, warlocks, etc.  5v5 is really about the only place that a shaman is viable in arenas.  I'm going to do my best to prove this wrong, but I'm not optimistic.  Shaman just don't have the types of pvp tools that many other classes do. 

On a side note; I've been more successful lately against warlocks and hunters, but warriors, paladins, and rogues (particularly with good gear) tear me a new one.  Gear > all it seems.  I want a stun damnit!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 11:49:18 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Montague
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Reply #138 on: February 20, 2008, 03:52:48 PM

Patch notes were updated again.

Nature’s Swiftness and Elemental Mastery now share a 10 second cooldown.  - Shaman pwnd.


Yeah, because shamen are too dominant a pvp force and desperately needed a nerf. 


Indeed.

By the way, there's a major kerfuffle on the WoW boards. Seems that Kalgan's close friend/life partner Leiah blogged about Ele shammies needing the nerf a couple of weeks ago and posted on the warlock forums about it. Then he got account banned from the forums for a racial slur, and the shamans rose up in dotshock nerd rage. Sure made work go by quicker.

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Righ
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Reply #139 on: February 20, 2008, 04:26:08 PM

I don't buy it.  Compare the number of 2k+ rated shamen to that of rogues, paladins, druids, warriors, warlocks, etc.  5v5 is really about the only place that a shaman is viable in arenas.  I'm going to do my best to prove this wrong, but I'm not optimistic.  Shaman just don't have the types of pvp tools that many other classes do. 

Kalgan said that this is what they were trying to do - balance for arenas by taking away stuff that seems too powerful alongside their intended buffs so that they can add stuff that gives you a fighting chance in 2v2. Its allegedly the nerf half of a rebalance - hopefully you won't have to wait as long as hunters did for the subsequent buff part. Of course, no sooner did he say that than the powers that be removed his post.

By the magic of Intarwebs, somebody's screencap:

http://home.comcast.net/~fxgpic/kalgan.JPG

So obviously its still a matter of debate up there in Blizz land and they don't appreciate Kalgan making buff promises. In other news, they still have no fucking idea what sort of gear a shaman would want:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/february/t6v2_skyshatter.jpg

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
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