2.4 changes?

[Zetor]

Of course, as alliance, the daily BG is anything but 'fun' or a 'mellow way to play'. 

Well, unless it's AV [which alliance tend to win on our battlegroup, unlike most other b'groups].


-- Z.

[Dren]

Of course, as alliance, the daily BG is anything but 'fun' or a 'mellow way to play'. 

Well, unless it's AV [which alliance tend to win on our battlegroup, unlike most other b'groups].


-- Z.

I've seen you write that before and am still at a loss.  Our battlegroup is the complete opposite.  I can get a *win in EoTS, AB, or WSG over 50% of the time.   AV?  I haven't had a win yet.

*Not counting Premades, of course.

[Zetor]

It's a crapshoot, really... I'm about 50/50 with WSG [but I barely ever WSG, since they can last forever], 60/40 with AB [generally win more than I lose, especially if I'm playing my tricked out pvp warrior -- on my resto shaman I depend on the rest of the alliance not sucking, which is generally a problem], but only about 30/70 with EOTS. If I team with a few friends, the win ratio increases substantially, but even a group of 4 can't guarantee a win in AB or EOTS if the rest of the alliance team isn't competent.

There are multiple problems with AB and EOTS; the obvious one is that horde significantly outgears the alliance in most of the pug games I enter, and there are always at least 1-2 alliance botters in EOTS (you can tell, they wander around randomly doing nothing and maybe do a macroed shot at a horde char if it gets near them to get rid of the debuff, they also periodically DC and reconnect, again to clear the debuff).

As an example, yesterday I was in an AB that had a grand total of eight alliance in gear better than greens and BOE blues (one of them was me, and nobody had better than a low-end mix of season1 / 2 gear), while most of the horde was decked out in at least almost-full season1, plus they had a 3-man 1800-rated arena team just rolling from node to node and stomping 4-5 alliance at a time. Alliance pugs almost never have well-geared people or 'mini-groups' queuing together; I don't have a problem with this (horde doing BGs for fun and alliance doing BGs for gear), but it makes it pretty hard/frustrating to win, especially if the alliance are playing to lose, which they often are.

All those 'advantages' alliance usually complain about are minor; warstomp and wotf or the 'easy horde triangle' in AB won't make a decisive difference, they only come into play during close games or 1v1 encounters. Most games aren't close and aren't decided by 1v1 encounters. Heck, it is even possible to compensate for gear somewhat, as long as the "weaker" characters travel in packs. But nothing can compensate for apathy and the "omg we're gonna lose" attitude that seems to plague alliance in my battlegroup.

Oh, and don't get me started about the "losing AB/WSG/EOTS" groups that do nothing but stand around in the entrance area and /dance until the horde cap everything. It's really fun zoning into a BG with like 10 people playing to lose on purpose and being met by childish "LOLOL ENJOY UR QUICK MARK, SCRUBS" spam in BGchat when I actually try to cap something. Even if I needed marks (I don't), I'd never do that crap, it's pretty much the opposite of what pvp should be about.

AV though, we win about 80% of the time, as horde hasn't adopted the 'scorched earth' strategy except for a few guilds (but if they queue AV together, it's a group vs pug situation, meaning alliance is boned either way, the only difference is how much salt is applied to the wound). The other 20% are when horde turtle and actually do it right [a lot of the time they try it with only 7 people, which doesn't work... you need 15+ for the guaranteed win].


-- Z.

[Dren]

This is more for the PvP Shenanigans thread, but I do notice alliance characters seemingly doing nothing.  The afk'ers are easy to find, but you do have those that just seem to be standing near raging battles not contributing.  As a healer, this is especailly annoying since I'll be healing like a mofo and just continue to see all the red names around me.  Eventually they get wise and pwn me, but they should have been taking dirt naps way before that.

As for ignorance in BG's, I had a EoTS group last night continue to cap the flag with just on tower.  All players were bunched up in the one tower we had and a long string out to middle.  I kept trying to tell /raid the rules of the game and that they were, in fact, doing everything they could to lose, but it didn't matter.  The horde just stood at their towers dancing and laughing.

The other tactic that Alliance seems to be slow on is capturing the Mage Tower from within.  That is where Horde goes straight away.  Alliance continues to not even notice they are there and wonder why they keep losing the tower.  Meanwhile I'm screaming that they are inside and to get in there to exterminate them and they just run on by because they don't see any red names.  I even got a question in /bg, "What do you mean by inside MT?"

PuG's are awesome.

[MrHat]

Scorched earth?

[Zetor]

Scorched earth is simple. Horde can get to SH before alliance get to IB, so they contest the tower, kill balinda, and cap the graveyards (snowfall and stonehearth), while keeping 15-20 on defense at the IB chokepoint. At this point alliance defense falls back to SP (they can't get past the icewing bunker chokepoint or retake the bunker with horde rezzing at stonehearth), which the horde offense repeatedly zergs [the outcome is irrelevant] while the 20-man defense force keeps any alliance from capping anything south of stonehearth [if that] and horde wins because they capped 2 towers + killed Balinda, which gives them a 300-resource lead. It's called 'scorched earth' because unless the alliance team is a "premade" [gawd I hate that word] group or have extremely good un-PUGlike coordination, they'll never cap a single tower or kill Galv. In turn, this causes 2-3hour AV queues for horde since alliance won't want to waste time in AV anymore for zero return.

Proposed counters to scorched earth are either a 20-man defense at stonehearth/balinda [doesn't work, since horde get to SHbunker first and balinda is too weak for all but the best organized defenses to save] or getting past the IB turtle to get to frostwolf / rh [works only if the IB defenders don't have anyone who has a spammable sheep/fear/root, or anyone hanging back at the relief hut / fw to prevent ninjas]

This will change in 2.4, as alliance will be able to [somewhat] mirror the strategy. But until then, it's a guaranteed win in pug vs pug AV. My battlegroup [cyclone] is one of the few where horde don't do this.


-- Z.

[Ralence]

  In the Vengeance BG, we don't do it either, though we know the option is there.  The general consensus on the Horde side is, lose for 230 honor in 10 mins, vs turtle for 40 mins for 450 honor, we'll take the fast loss.

  I think everyone is in for some serious re-evaluation once the AV premade thing goes back into effect, there's already a lot of people do it with the PreFormAV addon, but once it becomes easier to do (Coordinating 30 idiots to open the AV queue at the same time can be frustrating), I think a lot MORE people will be unhappy with AV, regardless of starting points.

  I don't think I've ever run into a premade from the Alliance in my BG, but there's regularly 2-3 going from my server alone most nights.  Once that becomes 6-7, I don't think the Ally players will be too happy with things, especially from a PuG standpoint.



 

[MrHat]

Got the threads crossed here.  But the cool thing about 2.4 is the dimishing returns get knocked off of people.  This means things like Halaa raids and general world PVP can actually generate a fair amount of honor points.

[Xanthippe]

Got the threads crossed here.  But the cool thing about 2.4 is the dimishing returns get knocked off of people.  This means things like Halaa raids and general world PVP can actually generate a fair amount of honor points.

Yes, but I don't expect to find people doing world pvp like that more, much.  Maybe.

I think we'll see more turtles in AV, and more flag holding in (and fewer people playing) WSG.

[Paelos]

They seriously need to unfuck WSG stat. If there was EVER an instance that cried out for "reinforcements" it's that one instead of AV.

[Ratman_tf]

They seriously need to unfuck WSG stat. If there was EVER an instance that cried out for "reinforcements" it's that one instead of AV.

Totally.

[MrHat]

They seriously need to unfuck WSG stat. If there was EVER an instance that cried out for "reinforcements" it's that one instead of AV.

Absolutely.  This would make WSG a 15 min speed run everytime.  I think we've already discussed it here, but the proposed 100 Reinforcements, 30 per cap would unfuck quickly.

[AcidCat]

They seriously need to unfuck WSG stat. If there was EVER an instance that cried out for "reinforcements" it's that one instead of AV.

Funny you say that, just last night I jumped into a WSG match. After about 20 minutes, with the score stuck at 1 to 1  ... I asked myself WTF I was doing. I AFK'd out and promised myself never to play that godforsaken BG again.

[Fordel]

The Trick to WSG is being the one holding the flag. Then you get to decide how long the games last 



-don't want back to back posts edit-

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=5152.0

Cyclone Range went from 30 yards, down to 20.

Le Fuck 

[Calantus]

The Trick to WSG is being the one holding the flag. Then you get to decide how long the games last 

Unfortunately you can only control one flag so you need to rely on the whole rest of your team to take care of the other one and most of the time 9 random BGers aren't enough to get one other competent person in your group.

[Fordel]

You only need to control one flag to make the game end. Or more specifically, lose control of it.

If I'm 20 mins into a game and my team is just shitting up the middle, I give them a choice, they can either go after the flag, or *I* will go after our flag.

It's amazing how quickly even the stupidest of pugs will rally around their FC when he decides to cross the field into the enemy base. Either way, the game will move on!

[Dren]

Lately, I've been a lot of successful WSG instances.  The main strategy is to just throw the entire team at the flag.  Usually, the other side will do the same so getting the flag is a snap.  If they have a few sitting on D, all the better.  We wipe them, take the flag and now their Flag team is short.

As we cross back midfield, we engage their flag group and attempt to kill their flag carrier while ours slips past up to our hold.  9 times out of 10 this works because they cannot withstand the zerg.  I can't say it was just strat alone because it still takes competent PvP'ers and gear is always a factor, but out of all the other strategies I've seen this seems to work best.

Occasionally, you get a group that does the exact same strat and just has the better players/gear and beats us, but it is usually a really quick game.  You basically do 3-5 trips back and forth.  That last flag is easy because it is just a race.  Don't worry about their flag if you are one flag up on them.  Just get the 3 cap.

Once in a while we get teams that are even and both flags go down on a pass, but it is rare.  The whole hiding the flag and having groups on D and O just take for EVER and are a crapshoot on a win.  Sticking together throughout makes your healers more effective and the healers get the protection they need.  I've been doing WSG with 0 deaths lately due to this.

[Ratman_tf]

Lately, I've been a lot of successful WSG instances.  The main strategy is to just throw the entire team at the flag.  Usually, the other side will do the same so getting the flag is a snap.  If they have a few sitting on D, all the better.  We wipe them, take the flag and now their Flag team is short.

As we cross back midfield, we engage their flag group and attempt to kill their flag carrier while ours slips past up to our hold.  9 times out of 10 this works because they cannot withstand the zerg.  I can't say it was just strat alone because it still takes competent PvP'ers and gear is always a factor, but out of all the other strategies I've seen this seems to work best.

Occasionally, you get a group that does the exact same strat and just has the better players/gear and beats us, but it is usually a really quick game.  You basically do 3-5 trips back and forth.  That last flag is easy because it is just a race.  Don't worry about their flag if you are one flag up on them.  Just get the 3 cap.

Once in a while we get teams that are even and both flags go down on a pass, but it is rare.  The whole hiding the flag and having groups on D and O just take for EVER and are a crapshoot on a win.  Sticking together throughout makes your healers more effective and the healers get the protection they need.  I've been doing WSG with 0 deaths lately due to this.

Try explaining that concept to the average WSG pug group.  I've seen games where the whole team went on D, with maybe one or two of us seeing if we could ninja the enemy flag. 

[Dren]

Well, I have to admit that for some reason my PUG groups have just fallen into this strat.  It wasn't explained.  Everyone just did it.

I really can't explain it.

[Ratman_tf]

Well, I have to admit that for some reason my PUG groups have just fallen into this strat.  It wasn't explained.  Everyone just did it.

I really can't explain it.

You don't have to splain. Just tell them to get their butts over to Stormstrike and help me out once in a while! 

[Driakos]

It's clumping.  Players do it across all battlegrounds.  If you are the sucker and stay and play D, the other teams clump will steamroll you.  Better to stick with your clump so you can live longer.  Happened in Planetside too.  You'd get two big packs circling a continent eating stragglers, and soon to be canceling, defensive-minded players, huddled inside towers wondering how long it will be before the clump hits.

It's why it is so hard to get people to play defense in Alterac Valley on a battlegroup that got its AV chops during the Rush year.  You get 3 or 4 people who know that defense wins the new AV, but they are obliterated by 30 players who think the key to AV is to run South until you cannot run South any more.  Nobody likes to be zerged, so over time, they stick with the clump too. 

On one of my battlegroups, PUGs do the same thing in Arathi Basin.  Run around in a huge pack, never stop moving.  They win more often than not, because players on the other team become reluctant to venture out and try to get a node themselves.  You end up with Alliance trapped at their graveyard or stables, and a huge wall of Horde running down the lumber mill ramp every 30 seconds.  When the Alliance rolls around with their clump as well, the games are sooo long.  The flags are always flipping.  You pray that your clump meets their clump, because you're just running around clicking banners.  Don't wait for it to flip, just click it, look for red names, and go to the next.  Sometimes the Alliance clump is better, and we are trapped at Defiler's Den.  You get 13 players fighting on the road to Farm, and 1-2 trying to ninja nodes, knowing it's the only way to get the Alliance clump away from DD/Farm, so Horde clump can run free.

I don't know how you get around problems like this in online games.  Either don't build battles around the idea of defense, or really buff the strength of defense.  Turrets, cover, something.  Players are gonna bunch.  With no collision, and everyone with a helicopter view of the battleground, big clump of people kills smaller groups.  Doesn't help that the more players an AOE spell hits, the less damage it does per target.  AOE is ideally how you would be able to counter a mass of bodies coming at you.  It's the penalty to clumping, but it doesn't apply in WoW. (probably due to PVE farming concerns)

[Fordel]

Well, I have to admit that for some reason my PUG groups have just fallen into this strat.  It wasn't explained.  Everyone just did it.

I really can't explain it.

Which battlegroup do you play on Dren? In my experience, this is the default method for almost every Pug on Nightfall. What usually cocks us (the pugs) up is when the other side decides to meet us directly on the first pass instead of on the 2nd pass when we both have flags. Half the team will push past, the other half stops to fight, or is forced to stop and fight via CC.

Usually down hill from there :(

[Valmorian]

Doesn't help that the more players an AOE spell hits, the less damage it does per target. 

Huh?  Where did you get that from?  I haven't noticed this at all in WoW and can't find a mention of it on WoWWiki at all..

[Chimpy]

Doesn't help that the more players an AOE spell hits, the less damage it does per target.

Huh?  Where did you get that from?  I haven't noticed this at all in WoW and can't find a mention of it on WoWWiki at all..

The "AE" nerf, anything over 10 tgts and it cuts the dmg per tick down by dividing the amount of total dmg allowed per tick/number of tgts. Was put in around the time of BC release.

Go into BM with a pally tank, have them rustle up about 30 crocs and spiders and cats, then pop an AE spell. The dmg decrease is pretty substantial. I guess they are upping the total dmg allowed in 2.4 though.

[Dren]

Doesn't help that the more players an AOE spell hits, the less damage it does per target.

Huh?  Where did you get that from?  I haven't noticed this at all in WoW and can't find a mention of it on WoWWiki at all..

The "AE" nerf, anything over 10 tgts and it cuts the dmg per tick down by dividing the amount of total dmg allowed per tick/number of tgts. Was put in around the time of BC release.

Go into BM with a pally tank, have them rustle up about 30 crocs and spiders and cats, then pop an AE spell. The dmg decrease is pretty substantial. I guess they are upping the total dmg allowed in 2.4 though.

I don't like that change due to Arcane Explosion.  That crap is nearly impossible to heal when facing a well geared mage.  One mage can turn a 2 to 1 battle to their side within seconds.  Even if you have a priest kicking out instant AOE heals (Holy Nova) at the same time, they don't heal enough to keep up and I'm pretty sure the mana usage isn't balanced either.  A healadin like myself has no chance as all my heals are single target, timed.

[Driakos]

It's not just Arcane Explosion.  You can round up a whole mess of monsters (or players) and Flamestrike, or Seed of Corruption, and instead of the big juicy numbers you are used to seeing, get 130's and 15's.  There's a damage cap on all of them.  I didn't know they were upping the cap in 2.4.  Hopefully they do it for all of the area of effect damage spells.

[Chimpy]

I don't like that change due to Arcane Explosion.  That crap is nearly impossible to heal when facing a well geared mage.  One mage can turn a 2 to 1 battle to their side within seconds.  Even if you have a priest kicking out instant AOE heals (Holy Nova) at the same time, they don't heal enough to keep up and I'm pretty sure the mana usage isn't balanced either.  A healadin like myself has no chance as all my heals are single target, timed.

I am reading your post as you are thinking the AE is having a larger effect on 2 targets than it would on say, 6 or 7. That is not the case, the AE modifiers only come into effect when there are n+1 tgts in range, n being the max pre-capped amount (I believe this is 10 but I could be wrong). Arcane explosion does the same amount of dmg per tgt to 1 target as it does to 8 targets.

[Driakos]

(I believe this is 10 but I could be wrong)

I think 10 is correct as well.

[Dren]

I don't like that change due to Arcane Explosion.  That crap is nearly impossible to heal when facing a well geared mage.  One mage can turn a 2 to 1 battle to their side within seconds.  Even if you have a priest kicking out instant AOE heals (Holy Nova) at the same time, they don't heal enough to keep up and I'm pretty sure the mana usage isn't balanced either.  A healadin like myself has no chance as all my heals are single target, timed.

I am reading your post as you are thinking the AE is having a larger effect on 2 targets than it would on say, 6 or 7. That is not the case, the AE modifiers only come into effect when there are n+1 tgts in range, n being the max pre-capped amount (I believe this is 10 but I could be wrong). Arcane explosion does the same amount of dmg per tgt to 1 target as it does to 8 targets.

Yes, that is how I understand it.  I'm saying they are making it so the diminishing returns don't start until there is a bigger group than there already is.  I could be reading the change wrong, so correct me if so.

To me, mages have a tool in PvP that works exceptionally well because you rarely have more than 6 people protecting a node.  At this point one mage that is specced arcane and geared to the teeth can come in and ABlast them nonstop if they come with a healer, etc.  A team of 3 can take out 6 quite quickly and easily right now.  Even if they don't kill eveyone, that ABlast will prevent anyone from capturing a flag in AB or EoTS.  The way I understand it, they are making the spell capabile of changing the odds even when you have up to 10 people in the area.  I don't see a need for that.

On the PvE side, it just makes for a more efficient farming machine?  Killing 6 things at once wasn't good enough before?

[MrHat]

Silence the healer and 3 shot the mage?

[Dren]

Silence the healer and 3 shot the mage?

As a PvP healer, I can tell you.  Only the other side seems to know that is the key.

Seriously though, they typically either blink out or iceblock out of trouble long enough to get past the silence.  It is pretty tough to outright kill a well played mage.

What that does do is stop them from bouncing around blasting, which does help tremendously.