WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Fordel]

As mentioned DAoC had three sides so the two could always gang up on one but that won't be an option in Warhammer.

The two weaker realms ganging up on the strong one rarely happened in DaoC.

What usually happened was the weakest realm got shit stomped by the other two realms, mostly for their amusement. For every time you did get the two smaller realms to tag team the big one, you had the two larger realms walking all over the small one, like three times as often.



As to people jumping ship, the only people who really change to the 'winning' side (be it for pop or class/race imbalance) are the 'hardcore' or 'want to be hardcore' folk. Most everyone else stays put, the level/gear grind combined with the 'all of my friends are here' effect ensures that.



If nothing else you have to take into account the Paladin/Ranger effect. No matter how shitty the 'paladin' or 'ranger' class for a mmo can be, there WILL be 5 billion of them around.

[Triforcer]

Another point in favor of the "Order will have greater pop" argument is that in this game, Chaos is really, really evil.  I read about quests where you put innocent peasants to the torch, and other stuff like that.  Whereas in WoW, the Horde and Alliance aren't portrayed as any better/worse than each other.

I don't know about ya'll, but I could never finish (or really even begin) to play an evil group in BG2.  Everytime I got to the first choice with options like "A. free the enslaved children/B.  sell them to fetishist trolls" I chickened out and selected the good options.  It will be hard for people to wrap their head around playing a truly bad realm.

EDIT:

Apparently Mythic has a solution- http://www.only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22424

Queuing, ahoy!

[Morfiend]

Boobies will always triumph. 

Fixed.

[Miasma]

Apparently Mythic has a solution- http://www.only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22424

Queuing, ahoy!

God damn I hate sig images.

[eldaec]

Another point in favor of the "Order will have greater pop" argument is that in this game, Chaos is really, really evil.  I read about quests where you put innocent peasants to the torch, and other stuff like that.  Whereas in WoW, the Horde and Alliance aren't portrayed as any better/worse than each other.

I gather Order is also portrayed as evil.

Which (unlike the 2 realm nonsense) does at least match the lore.

[Triforcer]

Another point in favor of the "Order will have greater pop" argument is that in this game, Chaos is really, really evil.  I read about quests where you put innocent peasants to the torch, and other stuff like that.  Whereas in WoW, the Horde and Alliance aren't portrayed as any better/worse than each other.

I gather Order is also portrayed as evil.

Which (unlike the 2 realm nonsense) does at least match the lore.

I'm not up on Warhammer lore beyond what I've seen in WAR.  Are the alliances portrayed not accurate?

[eldaec]

Apparently Mythic has a solution- http://www.only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22424

Queuing, ahoy!

I *think* DAoC had the same.

It wasn't an issue because the queue is a backstop way beyond expected numbers per server. The 'server full' message was practically never reached.


Mark has gone on record saying that he believes server sizes shouldn't rise much above 2k concurrent for this sort of game, or the server community starts to break down. EVE disagrees, but EVE disagrees with everything. Anyway so a 5k overall cap suggests it is just the hard stop to prevent DDOS.

[eldaec]

Another point in favor of the "Order will have greater pop" argument is that in this game, Chaos is really, really evil.  I read about quests where you put innocent peasants to the torch, and other stuff like that.  Whereas in WoW, the Horde and Alliance aren't portrayed as any better/worse than each other.

I gather Order is also portrayed as evil.

Which (unlike the 2 realm nonsense) does at least match the lore.

I'm not up on Warhammer lore beyond what I've seen in WAR.  Are the alliances portrayed not accurate?

Portraying any alliance that lasts more than 20 minutes isn't accurate. Green-Chaos is espeicially hard to swallow.

[Simond]

Orcs are more int'rested in gettin' inta big scraps an' bashin' pinkies wiv dere choppas dan dey are in makin' friends like some sorta wussy elf.

[Kirth]

Another point in favor of the "Order will have greater pop" argument is that in this game, Chaos is really, really evil.  I read about quests where you put innocent peasants to the torch, and other stuff like that.  Whereas in WoW, the Horde and Alliance aren't portrayed as any better/worse than each other.

I don't know about ya'll, but I could never finish (or really even begin) to play an evil group in BG2.  Everytime I got to the first choice with options like "A. free the enslaved children/B.  sell them to fetishist trolls" I chickened out and selected the good options.  It will be hard for people to wrap their head around playing a truly bad realm.

Well from what I understand the chaos faction in WAR is going to be solely followers of Tzeentch who from reading is the 'least evil' of the 4; Slaanesh, Khorne, and Nurgle being the other options. Though I think having Slaanesh as a faction would appeal to a certain demographic 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(Warhammer)

[HaemishM]

Tzeentch? Blearg. There will be no reason to scream Blood for the Blood for the Blood God. Tzeentch is a magicky pussy.

Also, there ARE no 'good' races in Warhammer, only really shitty authoritarian regimes that think they are better than everyone else.

[eldaec]

In this context I think Tzeentch has been chosen in his capacity as the god of PG13 idolatry and the god of having-a-reasonable-mix-of-melee-and-magic-minions-who-are-also-broadly-humanoid.

That may be my useful cynicism kicking in ofc.

[Megrim]

Tzeentch? Blearg. There will be no reason to scream Blood for the Blood for the Blood God. Tzeentch is a magicky pussy.

Also, there ARE no 'good' races in Warhammer, only really shitty authoritarian regimes that think they are better than everyone else.

pfft, sure he is. Until you cut open your skull and start scooping out and eating your own brain to make the voices stop. Or to start them up again, since you're never quite sure.

Khorne my arse.

[Calantus]

In this context I think Tzeentch has been chosen in his capacity as the god of PG13 idolatry and the god of having-a-reasonable-mix-of-melee-and-magic-minions-who-are-also-broadly-humanoid.

That may be my useful cynicism kicking in ofc.

That was my thought exactly. Slaanesh you can't touch in a PG13 game. Nurgle is too disgusting. And Khorne doesn't DO magic. I am a bit disappointed though, I'd have hoped one of the classes was a Khorne berzerker.

[UnSub]

In this context I think Tzeentch has been chosen in his capacity as the god of PG13 idolatry and the god of having-a-reasonable-mix-of-melee-and-magic-minions-who-are-also-broadly-humanoid.

That may be my useful cynicism kicking in ofc.

That was my thought exactly. Slaanesh you can't touch in a PG13 game. Nurgle is too disgusting. And Khorne doesn't DO magic. I am a bit disappointed though, I'd have hoped one of the classes was a Khorne berzerker.

Khorne will be part of key content in the next paid expansion, mark my words.

[rk47]

Oh u mean when the cries for the 'buff warriors plz' get loud enough? 

I don't know how the class balance is gonna be in pvp, but hearing squishie mages being forced to melee before actually able to cast an offensive spells on their enemy is just a little hard to believe. Are there even 'deadzones' for the rangers?

[Simond]

I *think* DAoC had the same.

It wasn't an issue because the queue is a backstop way beyond expected numbers per server. The 'server full' message was practically never reached.


Mark has gone on record saying that he believes server sizes shouldn't rise much above 2k concurrent for this sort of game, or the server community starts to break down. EVE disagrees, but EVE disagrees with everything. Anyway so a 5k overall cap suggests it is just the hard stop to prevent DDOS.

See, I'm not reading that as "If server pops go over X thousand, we'll start capping them", but "If O:C balance skews too far in one direction, we'll cap the higher side" which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Hell, my low-pop WoW server would have queues right now if Blizzard did that...because it's a TBC expansion server, therefore half the server is blood elves. (the pop breakdown is something like 50% blood elves (of which half are paladins), 5% undead rogues/warlocks, 5% tauren druids, 5% other Horde, 20% draenei (of which half are shaman), 5% pink-haired pigtailed gnome rogues/warlocks, 5% NE hunters, 5% other alliance).

Another article from Eurogamer: http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=129923

Looked at from one angle, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning is a game with everything going for it. It has a licence perfectly suited to a massively multiplayer RPG with the kind of classical high fantasy setting that has been the basis of virtually every successful MMO to date, from Ultima to Lord of the Rings. It has an experienced developer in the form of Mythic, creators of Dark Age of Camelot, and the bottomless resources of Mythic's new owners EA (although GOA will publish and operate the game in Europe). It has another few months in development to ensure it's as good as it can be. It has a wide-open path to the mainstream, conveniently bulldozed by genre phenomenon World of Warcraft. It has simple, familiar basics backed up by a truckload of big and rather brilliant ideas.

Look at it another way, and WAR - to use the preferred and pointed acronym - is a game with a mountain to climb. It has a fantasy setting trampled into cliché by over a decade of identikit MMOs. It has a developer encumbered with expectations and preconceptions in a field where no team has ever hit big twice, backed by a publisher so uncertain of MMOs that it has outsourced the European release. It has suffered yet another damaging delay that has angered fans and thrown it into the merciless path of WOW expansion Wrath of the Lich King. It's doomed to live in the shadow of Blizzard's juggernaut, a game with which it shares all too many similarities. Its big ideas aren't immediately apparent because the basics of the game are so conventional.

Both viewpoints are equally valid, and you could go mad trying to reconcile them. Mythic, to its credit, isn't bothering. It's just getting its head down and doing its best to sharpen the one sword it has that isn't double-edged: those big ideas.

The stuff later in the article about conquering cities is why side balance is critical - end up with a server like the launch PvE servers for WoW (>2:1 A:H) or the more biased PvP servers (>2:1 H:A), and the lower pop side is living in shantytowns permanently, while the higher pop side is bored because they've "beaten" the game.

[Venkman]

I've decided that the first fantasy MMO that comes out without elves will earn my lifetime loyalty.  I'm sick of elves.

Asheron's Call

Something to consider: far less than half of all listed MMORPGs feature Elves.

It's only the "successful" ones that have them 

[Numtini]

On the whole realm populations, it probably doesn't fit with the lore in War (I don't know), but when you have 6 or 8 races, the answer is easy. Make some realms neutral and shift them as needed between the two or three sides.

[Calantus]

It wouldn't really fit the lore. But then the sides don't fit lore so whatever. The tabletop game doesn't really care about alignment though because it's better if everyone can fight or align with anybody so there's that precedent.

[eldaec]

On the whole realm populations, it probably doesn't fit with the lore in War (I don't know), but when you have 6 or 8 races, the answer is easy. Make some realms neutral and shift them as needed between the two or three sides.

That would fit the lore fine. Much better than the current arrangement.

But it would never work because you'd be randomly breaking up guilds.

[Koyasha]

The other problem is that they're balancing by 'side' rather than race, so if you remove a race from one side, you've probably also removed a key class that they need in order to be a balanced whole.

[eldaec]

However, they could have simply made it normals vs green vs chaos.

One thing daoc and wow have taught us is that three realms will naturally balance population better than two (and no, I'm not suggesting daoc population balance was perfect, I am saying it was better than wow population balance, despite hibernia being much uglier than horde).

Heck, they could probably have pushed it out to hippies (welf/helf) vs techies (dwarf/human) vs green (orc/goblin) vs chaos (chaos/delf).

[Kirth]

The other problem is that they're balancing by 'side' rather than race, so if you remove a race from one side, you've probably also removed a key class that they need in order to be a balanced whole.

From whats be reviled it seems that each race's classes fall into 4 major categories, Being Heavy Melee, Light Melee, Combat Healer, and Wizard. I think in one of the videos you can even see a chart detailing just this.

[eldaec]

The other problem is that they're balancing by 'side' rather than race, so if you remove a race from one side, you've probably also removed a key class that they need in order to be a balanced whole.

From whats be reviled it seems that each race's classes fall into 4 major categories, Being Heavy Melee, Light Melee, Combat Healer, and Wizard. I think in one of the videos you can even see a chart detailing just this.

And as we all know, all Heavy Tanks or all healers are always equal under all circumstances.

Given 'Healer' in WAR stretches from the Paladin archetype, through smite cleric, and on to buff/debuff pure support guy, I wouldn't expect anything too different to what you've seen in other mmogs.

[Baldrake]

I know they had them in DAoC, but I never really got the concept of light melee. Less DPS than a mage, too little armour to tank. Can someone explain to me where they fit in?

[Megrim]

I know they had them in DAoC, but I never really got the concept of light melee. Less DPS than a mage, too little armour to tank. Can someone explain to me where they fit in?

Free xp.

Seriously though, i never played DaoC, so i have no idea.

[rk47]

you're talking about Rogues archetypes? The ones that goes in, burst dps then hopefully don't get hit?
It's probably one of those 'shock troops' gameplay where the tank actually rush in PVP, gets everyone attention and then that's when the 'Light melee' guy with either speed/stealth makes his entry. Mages can't do this cause people can see him from far away.

It's a nice addition really, there's always light melee types in every game, usually represented by dagger wielding classes that doesn't wear heavy armour. Think about it, wearing heavy armour slows you down.

[Aez]

Light melee had it rough.  Almost last choice for group.  Only stealther were weaker in a group.  Still, it was better to have one tank and one light melee than 2 tank.  They were good puller habitually.  A couple of them were completely useless at release, I don't know if they ever got a real fix.

[Megrim]

Something i just though of; if they have collision detection in, a light melee type might have some abilities so slip past blockers or something, allowing them easier access to the back lines.

[caladein]

Something i just though of; if they have collision detection in, a light melee type might have some abilities so slip past blockers or something, allowing them easier access to the back lines.

[Fordel]

Light Melee, At least in DaoC were like WoW fury warriors that couldn't respec to prot or arms. Depending on what patch version of DaoC you were playing, they were either wet noodles, or had absolutely massive DPS.

They only really existed because DaoC classes were so rigid and narrow in their definition and so much of a class was tied into it's base stat points (as  in X class gets 2 AP per strength point vs 1 or 3 etc..).


PvP, they were the main power behind the train. The 2h Heavies provided the spike to push something over, but the Light's were the sustained steady to keep the target pressured. The only exception to this was the pre-nerf LeftAxe era, where someone at Mythic failed at math *spectacularly* and randomly doubled the damage done by all LeftAxe styles, so Zerkers did sustained and spike. You could also make a case for the Savage class being a 'light tank', but it's well beyond anything the true light tanks could do.

PvE, they were just some random damage at best, afk in the PBAE group at worst. Mythic never really gave a shit about PvE balance, which was fine since no one playing DaoC did either.

[Baldrake]

PvP, they were the main power behind the train. The 2h Heavies provided the spike to push something over, but the Light's were the sustained steady to keep the target pressured.

Thanks for this. Although tbh, I haven't a clue what it means. Guess I didn't play enough DAoC.

[eldaec]

PvP, they were the main power behind the train. The 2h Heavies provided the spike to push something over, but the Light's were the sustained steady to keep the target pressured.

Thanks for this. Although tbh, I haven't a clue what it means. Guess I didn't play enough DAoC.

The train is the group, probably using /assist /stick to stay together and on target.

The 'spike' he's referring to is front loaded 'free' first swing damage a slow swinging heavy tank gets in almost any diku.

The sustained damage is just a light tanks uber dps.


The spike is important because it is the only way a heavy can compete on dps....

example:

Heavy Tank
100 dps
5 second swing

0 sec: 500 damage
5 sec : 1000 damage
10 sec : 1500 damage

Light Rogue
150 dps
2 sec swing

0 sec : 300 damage
2 sec : 600 damage
4 sec : 900 damage


The slow swinging heavy damage gets a damage head start, because the first swing in a diku battle is 'free'. The cost of the swing has been paid outside of the battle, that cost was 5 seconds of not swinging before the battle.

However in a fight that takes more than a few hits, the light rogue quickly outdamages the heavy tank.

[palmer_eldritch]

I know they had them in DAoC, but I never really got the concept of light melee. Less DPS than a mage, too little armour to tank. Can someone explain to me where they fit in?

I like light melee characters, simply because I like the idea of being a DPSer but doing it by hitting things with a sword instead of standing at the back in a robe casting lightshows. The traditional mage/cleric/tank formula misses something that some people like in fantasy games, namely the idea of actually killing something with your sword (as the tanks usually don't do much damage).