WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Baldrake]

Very interesting. So in DAoC, do light melee actually do comparable DPS to mages?

[Merusk]

erm.. I've always understood "Spike" damage in PVP as "the hit that kills the target."   Steady, even dps 'to put the pressure on'' means keep the healer focused and trying to keep-up with that damage, but then you hit a Spike.. -that heavy, infrequent hit - right after a heal (or just before a heal lands) and you kill the target because the healing wasn't accounting for it.

[Nebu]

In DAoC we always considered light tanks as pressure/interrupt tanks.  In the TOA era they could spike damage using weapon uses combined with abilities like Banespike.  Mostly, they used a combination of fast attacks, charge, and rear snares to keep a caster/healer interrupted so that the rest of the team could drop a secondary target. 

The whole theory behind a light tank should be that you give up armor for mobility and higher sustained dps.  It doesn't always work out that way in practice.

[Johny Cee]

The whole theory behind a light tank should be that you give up armor for mobility and higher sustained dps.  It doesn't always work out that way in practice.

This.

Light tanks in DAoC had higher DPS, movement abilities like charge (speed boost plus immunity to CC), interrupt abiliities through the Banelord ML lline, and various snares to stop enemies from kiting them.

Heavy tanks except for Heroes weren't particularly used too much, 'cept for a token stunner to go on the tank train and stun someone so he couldn't get away.

[eldaec]

Very interesting. So in DAoC, do light melee actually do comparable DPS to mages?

It depended on the situation.

If you left a mage alone in daoc he would lay waste to everyone. But in practice, a gnat farting within 100 yards of a wizard would lock them into interrupt hell.

[Fordel]

PvP, they were the main power behind the train. The 2h Heavies provided the spike to push something over, but the Light's were the sustained steady to keep the target pressured.

Thanks for this. Although tbh, I haven't a clue what it means. Guess I didn't play enough DAoC.

Yea sorry, I forget not everyone played DaoC for half a decade sometimes  . Eldaec and Merusk elaborated on what I was trying to say.



Mages in DaoC were the Paragons of 'Glass Cannons'. When they COULD cast, they could very nearly kill anything in 2-4 nukes and these nukes were all buffed/hasted to sub second cast times. Absolutely massive and ridiculous damage.

 (the exception to this was when magical resists stacked additively, so with maximum buffs and gear, resists were literally in the 95% range. MageWizard casts fireball and hits you for 50 (950 damage resisted), this was eventually changed, of course there was also the few casting classes that could debuff for their own damage type, which resulted in Negative resists for a damage bonus... this too was eventually fixed)

Of course the issue was casting itself. Take WoW's casting system, but replace the 'pushback' mechanic on the cast bar with total interruption and a 2 second delay on recasting attempts.

You begin casting Fireball
Level 4 lynx pet misses you
You are interupted
You can cast again in 2 seconds
You can cast again in 1 second
You begin casting Root
Level 4 lynx pet misses you
You are interupted
You can cast again in 2 seconds
You can cast again in 1 second
You melee level 4 lynx pet for 150 damage
Lynx dies
You begin casting Fireball
RandomRanger shoots you and hits your blade turn spell
You are interupted
You can cast again in 2 seconds
You can cast again in 1 second
etc...


Combine that with the fact CC in DaoC was both very powerful and long duration, but also very unforgiving once it was broken and the fact casters had all of four Hit Points most of the time. It made for a extremely frustrating play experience, for everyone involved. Another classic DaoC mechanics example, where your best case scenario is 50% of everyone involved is pissed rightly off.



So while if you were to put a Mage against a Light Tank in a ideal situation, the Mage would out DPS the Light Tank drastically. The ideal situation never existed in reality. Being able to DPS while still moving, being hit and Shrugging off CC, generally far outweighed the potential damage a caster could bring.

Of course there were always exceptions, specific RA talents allowed casters to actually cast and specific group compositions built around certain casting concepts. Most notoriously was the PBAE group, both in PvE and PvP. The general premise was some casters had Area Effect damage spells that centered on the caster itself. These were 'balanced' around the fact they had no range and put the caster into harms way by making them hit for absolutely stupendous amounts of damage in that area. Even relative to normal caster ranged nukes, PBAE's were *huge* amounts of damage. So when you stacked enough PBAE casters into one small area, it didn't matter if one or two got interrupted, anything in that area for longer then say, 1.5 seconds, was dead.

Did I mention PBAE spells did not obey LoS rules? Or the vertical axis? (though they have fixed most of those issues I believe with present day DaoC).

Best I could find after a entire 2 minutes of looking  : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haO3aaTCHlA to demonstrate the PBAE process.

[Johny Cee]

PvP, they were the main power behind the train. The 2h Heavies provided the spike to push something over, but the Light's were the sustained steady to keep the target pressured.

Thanks for this. Although tbh, I haven't a clue what it means. Guess I didn't play enough DAoC.

Yea sorry, I forget not everyone played DaoC for half a decade sometimes  . Eldaec and Merusk elaborated on what I was trying to say.



Mages in DaoC were the Paragons of 'Glass Cannons'. When they COULD cast, they could very nearly kill anything in 2-4 nukes and these nukes were all buffed/hasted to sub second cast times. Absolutely massive and ridiculous damage.

 (the exception to this was when magical resists stacked additively, so with maximum buffs and gear, resists were literally in the 95% range. MageWizard casts fireball and hits you for 50 (950 damage resisted), this was eventually changed, of course there was also the few casting classes that could debuff for their own damage type, which resulted in Negative resists for a damage bonus... this too was eventually fixed)

Of course the issue was casting itself. Take WoW's casting system, but replace the 'pushback' mechanic on the cast bar with total interruption and a 2 second delay on recasting attempts.

You begin casting Fireball
Level 4 lynx pet misses you
You are interupted
You can cast again in 2 seconds
You can cast again in 1 second
You begin casting Root
Level 4 lynx pet misses you
You are interupted
You can cast again in 2 seconds
You can cast again in 1 second
You melee level 4 lynx pet for 150 damage
Lynx dies
You begin casting Fireball
RandomRanger shoots you and hits your blade turn spell
You are interupted
You can cast again in 2 seconds
You can cast again in 1 second
etc...


Combine that with the fact CC in DaoC was both very powerful and long duration, but also very unforgiving once it was broken and the fact casters had all of four Hit Points most of the time. It made for a extremely frustrating play experience, for everyone involved. Another classic DaoC mechanics example, where your best case scenario is 50% of everyone involved is pissed rightly off.



So while if you were to put a Mage against a Light Tank in a ideal situation, the Mage would out DPS the Light Tank drastically. The ideal situation never existed in reality. Being able to DPS while still moving, being hit and Shrugging off CC, generally far outweighed the potential damage a caster could bring.

Of course there were always exceptions, specific RA talents allowed casters to actually cast and specific group compositions built around certain casting concepts. Most notoriously was the PBAE group, both in PvE and PvP. The general premise was some casters had Area Effect damage spells that centered on the caster itself. These were 'balanced' around the fact they had no range and put the caster into harms way by making them hit for absolutely stupendous amounts of damage in that area. Even relative to normal caster ranged nukes, PBAE's were *huge* amounts of damage. So when you stacked enough PBAE casters into one small area, it didn't matter if one or two got interrupted, anything in that area for longer then say, 1.5 seconds, was dead.

Did I mention PBAE spells did not obey LoS rules? Or the vertical axis? (though they have fixed most of those issues I believe with present day DaoC).

Best I could find after a entire 2 minutes of looking  : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haO3aaTCHlA to demonstrate the PBAE process.

Yah,  that's the general situation for the typical open field PUGer type.  He was dumb enough to stand still and let the pet get distance on him.  Smart tactics playing a caster could mean a huge increase in effectiveness.  Most casters learned to "pre-kite" and have a huge amount of distance awareness. 

A good caster spent more time sprinting away and circling things than actually casting.  I used to get a couple levels of that "sprint longer" RA as one of my first buys on all my casters. 

[Fordel]

All of my characters ended up with rank 2 or 3 of that RA eventually. If you had Rank 3 or higher, you could perma sprint and regen endurance while using only Endurance Chant 3 (which you could get off an Alch potion, no bard/shaman/paladin required )

I really could spend all day talking about DaoC Mechanics and how bizarre, unnecessary and broken most of them were (are?  )

[Nebu]

I really could spend all day talking about DaoC Mechanics and how bizarre, unnecessary and broken most of them were (are?  )

DAoC for all of its faults managed to accomplish two things. 

1) They had a counter to every ability (eventually).

2) They managed to balance a bajillion classes for group vs group and realm vs realm combat.  If you had a skilled 8-man, the realm balance in 8v8 combat was as close to balanced as possible with there being so many different class/ability combinations.

They got my cash for two accounts for over 5 years.  I doubt another MMO will be able to do that. 

[Johny Cee]

I really could spend all day talking about DaoC Mechanics and how bizarre, unnecessary and broken most of them were (are?  )

DAoC for all of its faults managed to accomplish two things. 

1) They had a counter to every ability (eventually).

2) They managed to balance a bajillion classes for group vs group and realm vs realm combat.  If you had a skilled 8-man, the realm balance in 8v8 combat was as close to balanced as possible with there being so many different class/ability combinations.

They got my cash for two accounts for over 5 years.  I doubt another MMO will be able to do that. 

As Nebu said.

The major DAoC problem was the huge layers of complexity and the learning curve.  You could expect to RvR with a class for months before gaining basic competency with it in most situations and figuring out the strengths/weaknesses of opposing classes.

The social grind to get in with the good players was pretty fucked too,  but that's common to alot of other competitive games.

[Llava]

Did they ever fix the scaling with Ripper (level 50 Critical Strike style) or does it still do less damage than Leaper?

The game was just too complicated.  The virtues of DAoC you mentioned before left out the single most important virtue it had, though:

1) PvP mattered.

[Fordel]

I would change that 1 point to

PVP : Mattered 'enough'


The key to DaoC's RvR success was, at the end of the day, you could walk away from it and go wrack spriggans without to much woe. You never 'lost' everything. It wasn't like EVE where you could have months of play time be nullified by 'losing'. Or WoW where your playtime is nothing more then a mini game whose only existence is to grind out gear.

You lose a few keeps that night? Odds are, you'd have them back by the next night. Your realm lost its relics? Those will be back in a couple of weeks (unless your in the shitty shit super underpopulated realm  ). Even if you did lose a bunch of keeps and relics, the bonuses they gave to your enemies weren't insurmountable. They made a difference, enough to want them for yourself, but not so much that you would toss your arms in the air and go "this is impossible, fuck this!". Losing that night meant only meant you'd get them back tomorrow night.

Everything is Temporarily Permanent. It allowed players to change the world, without really changing shit. So you simultaneously had people investing themselves into their Realm and Team, wanting for the world, all the while the world itself was always destined to revert to normalcy, without any artificial resets like the end of a WoW-BG, or any of the devastating losses of EVE/SB.


That kind of balance has yet to be matched by any MMO, or even attempted. For a lot of people (myself included), it really is the ideal playground. I suppose this is the base hope for WAR for me. That it *will* essentially be DaoC, but minus all the shitty DaoC mechanics. 



PS. While on that tangent, there is something to be said for DaoC's Clear and Concrete divisions of PvE and PvP. None of this flagging shit, or having Max level enemies in your level 15 zone killing your quest NPCs. This giant fortress with the hundreds of elite guards and the giant doors? This is the line, cross it, and people will probably kill you! Don't want to die? Don't cross it!

"Somebody died in a RvR zone  "

[Llava]

I meant "PvP mattered" as opposed to "PvP doesn't matter", but you are right to point out the difference between that and "PvP matters too much".

Though I wouldn't say it was a matter of weeks for relics to change hands.  At least, not my server.  Usually it was a couple months.  Hell, once we (Hibernia) lost all of our relics we decided to force the battle into Midgard's frontier (leaving ours intentionally empty and undefended, because it really didn't matter), and we waged a non-stop war on Midgard for the entire month of December.  We destroyed their will to defend, tired them out, drained their gold, and took back our relics.  For the next 5 or so months we were at the top of the server.

That whole month was some of the best MMO gaming I've ever had.  That felt like WAR.  Moar plz.

[Simond]

The potential problem with the core WAR PvP mechanic is that if capital cities are worth fighting for, then whoever loses (/is the underpopulated side on any particular server) may very well just do the "Sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm logging for the night" thing. Imagine getting kicked out into a shantytown six nights out of seven and not being able to bank, train, turn in quests, whatever.

If, however, capital cities are not worth fighting for, then why suffer through hours of (essentially) Alterac Valley, hope that all the other PUGs running all the other pvp instances also mostly win, and then run a PvE raid against the King/Emperor/Grand High Foozle for something that essentially doesn't matter?

It's a fairly narrow path to walk, IMO.

[Triforcer]

The potential problem with the core WAR PvP mechanic is that if capital cities are worth fighting for, then whoever loses (/is the underpopulated side on any particular server) may very well just do the "Sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm logging for the night" thing. Imagine getting kicked out into a shantytown six nights out of seven and not being able to bank, train, turn in quests, whatever.

If, however, capital cities are not worth fighting for, then why suffer through hours of (essentially) Alterac Valley, hope that all the other PUGs running all the other pvp instances also mostly win, and then run a PvE raid against the King/Emperor/Grand High Foozle for something that essentially doesn't matter?

It's a fairly narrow path to walk, IMO.

I'm fairly certain that in the major beta revamp that happened in October, the influence of BGs on zone capture was drastically reduced.  A majority of a zone's "Victory Points" (to flip it, and move on to the next conflict zone) now come from open world RvR. 

[waylander]

To me the PVP in DAOC didn't seem to matter all that much. I was part of the 5 guild group that was the first to take and keep all of the relics on the Merlin server. Sure we got some extra abilities, but by in large no one really cared. Most PVP back then was also based around smaller RvR zones, and portal keep camping the other side to farm RP's.  People did care about certain spawns in the PVP zones because they were good for leveling so they'd fight over them, and then initially people cared enough about the Darkness Falls dungeon to fight for access to that.

We came back a few years later on a classic server and I got to experience the new frontiers version of RvR.  I still came way relatively unimpressed. While original RVR zones were too compressed, NF's problem was that it was too big. You'd run all over the place and end up in a 30 second fight where you pwned the other group, or they pwned your group.........rinse....repeat.  The game had also devolved from an actual Realm coordinated form of RvR to the "8 Man" mentality, where you had a bunch of 8 man's running around killing people but not really doing much for the realm. Lastly you had all these realm ranks to get for special abilities, and if you didn't get them you were way behind on the power curve.

Keeps and Towers were neat to capture, but it got sort of boring cap'ing your keep each day only to log in the next day and find it taken over. It got to the point to where you needed to cap the remote keeps and towers that weren't always in the main PVP areas if you wanted to hold onto one long term.

Fast forward to WHO's videos and other info they've released to the public, and you'll find that their keep battle system sounds exactly like DAOC New Frontiers. I can't speculate the size of the RVR zones, but if they are too small then there will be portal camping and if they are too large it will hinder regular realm coordination.

Lets hope they come out with a good system, and they learn from the mistakes of the past. If the PVP is virtually meaningless then people will get bored with it and leave (i.e. DAOC's shrinking population), but at the same time the "defeated" need to have a way to rebuild to fight another day or you end up with a Shadowbane scenario of dying servers.

[DarkSign]

Lets hope they come out with a good system, and they learn from the mistakes of the past. If the PVP is virtually meaningless then people will get bored with it and leave (i.e. DAOC's shrinking population), but at the same time the "defeated" need to have a way to rebuild to fight another day or you end up with a Shadowbane scenario of dying servers.

This is pretty dead on. That's why I think that if city-building is based on resources that were fought over the PvP would actually mean something. Not only for building more cities, but so that players or groups of players can amass hordes of resources (water, wood, metal, oil etc) and make that part of the economy.

RF online had something kind of similar and SB itself had always planned on such a system but came out with a really weak version way too late...but no one's actually done it right.

But this is only one level of interaction. There are other changes that could be scripted to occur...such as NPC reactions to a conquering or saving army. Or a change in the laws of an NPC town (go from free and easy to very restrictive (items that are contraband and punishable by death, illegal to sell certain crafted items etc).

[murdoc]

DAoC PVP was some of the most fun I've had online (read into THAT as you may). The small group of us that formed a guild STILL talk about shit we did in DAoC PVP back in the first two years it came out.

We were part of the first relic raid on our server. Because we were a small guild, we were sent to harass Hibernian reinforcements as they exited the frontier gates and headed towards their relic keep. While were are doing that, the two big guilds on the server were busy clearing guards and heading up to the gates. When they finally get there, there's a not much chatter and they have a massive wipe. It turns out that they brought all the materials for a ram, except for a sewing kit. The lack of a sewing kit prevented us from grabbing the first relic on our server.

Our server was one of the only ones where Midgard ruled. Most of the pvp action was in our frontier because we owned the relics a lot of time and the Albion/Hibernians deserted their zones to wreck havoc on us and our economy. I don't know how much gold I spent on repairing doors :(

Good times. Too bad the grind killed it for me. That's what worries me about WAR, even more than balanced sides, what is the grind going to be like? I can't spend hours playing just so I can maybe remain competitive in PVP.

So yeah, that's my DAoC story. I have lots. And then ToA came out.

[Xanthippe]

DAoC PVP was some of the most fun I've had online (read into THAT as you may).
<snip>
Good times. Too bad the grind killed it for me. That's what worries me about WAR, even more than balanced sides, what is the grind going to be like? I can't spend hours playing just so I can maybe remain competitive in PVP.

So yeah, that's my DAoC story. I have lots. And then ToA came out.

Agree completely.  Flawed as DAOC was, it was a lot of fun pre-ToA.  The pvp, not the pve, which was grindy and mostly unfun.  (The only fun I had in pve was the few months I joined the Shadowclan guild).

Old frontier was more fun than new - new was just too big.

I hope that WAR balances making pvp matter and doesn't make pvp matter too much.

[Ratman_tf]

On my server (Palomides) it usually went #1. Midgard, #2. Albion and #3. Hibernia a distant third. The one time we managed to get our relics back and nab one from the Middies, the server crashed before we capped it. Much wailing and drama ensued. (We were eventually given the relic, and pretty much Alb and Mid agreed it was the "fair" thing to do.)

Other than that, it was zerging in Emain Macha, flipping keeps back and forth, and me sneaking into the Mid frontier to gank greys with my Ranger.

DAOC's RvR was fun enough for it's time, but could have been improved in so many ways.

[Nevermore]

We were part of the first relic raid on our server. Because we were a small guild, we were sent to harass Hibernian reinforcements as they exited the frontier gates and headed towards their relic keep. While were are doing that, the two big guilds on the server were busy clearing guards and heading up to the gates. When they finally get there, there's a not much chatter and they have a massive wipe. It turns out that they brought all the materials for a ram, except for a sewing kit. The lack of a sewing kit prevented us from grabbing the first relic on our server.

This is what's missing from the PvP in any of the other MMOs I've played*.  All the others keep going for small, meaningless 'battleground' type PvP that just bores the hell out of me after a couple of weeks.  For all the flaws in DAoC (and there were a lot), the original RvR game they had is easily the most fun I've had PvPing in an MMO.

*Eve does have similar strategic and tactical gameplay added to their PvP, but the actual fights amount to watching a bunch of little squares float around the screen.  The whole game feels too much like Spreadsheets In Space for me.

[Hoax]

Did they ever fix the scaling with Ripper (level 50 Critical Strike style) or does it still do less damage than Leaper?

The game was just too complicated.  The virtues of DAoC you mentioned before left out the single most important virtue it had, though:

1) PvP mattered.

Man, the more I read shit like this the more I start wanting WAR to fucking burn and die.  Just to spite you people.  Just, no, you are wrong.  Pvp mattered more in fucking SWG@release and AC1:DT then it ever did in DAOC.  Fuck me.  PvP was the only thing that didn't suck 100% fucking crusty nutsack maybe is what you were trying to say?

The problem with this game is that people at Mythic believe that you all are right and DAOC was really a great pvp, no wait R V R  system (3 years after relase or whatever) and that remaking it reskinned with Gamesworkshop's IP and 10 poorly learned lessons from WoW = Juggernaut Bitch!

Which is going to be failure.  If AoC can not be broken (highly unlikely I'm sad to say) it will curbstomp WAR 6months after both have released.  Pvpers are fickle and will change games to play the best pvp available regardless of the shiney or the IP.  Also too many of Gamesworkshop's customers have played WoW, they waited too fucking long to get a MMO out the door.  If Blizzard beats them to the punch before they make a WH40k MMO I'm going to fucking laugh long and hard.

[Nebu]

Pvpers are fickle and will change games to play the best pvp available regardless of the shiney or the IP. 

Sorry, no.  The majority of PvP'ers will not go to the "best game" rather they will flock to the game that allows them to pwn with impunity.  The gear differential in WoW for example has allowed many of this audience to stay just because they will always have a fresh crop of newbies to slaughter. 

A small percentage of PvP'ers will flock to the best game for the balance and challenge.  That I can agree with.

[Dash]

DAoC PVP was some of the most fun I've had online (read into THAT as you may).
<snip>
Good times. Too bad the grind killed it for me. That's what worries me about WAR, even more than balanced sides, what is the grind going to be like? I can't spend hours playing just so I can maybe remain competitive in PVP.

So yeah, that's my DAoC story. I have lots. And then ToA came out.

Agree completely.  Flawed as DAOC was, it was a lot of fun pre-ToA.  The pvp, not the pve, which was grindy and mostly unfun.  (The only fun I had in pve was the few months I joined the Shadowclan guild).

Old frontier was more fun than new - new was just too big.

I hope that WAR balances making pvp matter and doesn't make pvp matter too much.

Same for me.  DAoC at the beginning was awesome.  Flawed certainly; it was unfinished, PvE was crap, and motherfucking Stungard was retardedly unbalanced... however, a ton of fun none the less.  My guild took the first keep from Midgard and it was damn exciting and rewarding just for bragging rights.  In the end the grind killed it for me as well.  That and having to "roll" with certain people to be competitive against the other realms zerg.

More and better PvE along with solid balance in RvR and the addition of Scenarios and taking Cap cities sounds great to me on paper.

I've pre-ordered the CE.  I will be playing, will likely get to cap level unless it's simply horrible.  So we'll see what happens.  I cant seem to settle on a class or even archetype yet.  Tank?  Melee DPS?  Ranged DPS?  Healer?  Very torn. 

[Signe]

Hey!  I thought you fell in a hole!  I put you in my dead pool!

Dammit.

[Venkman]

If AoC can not be broken (highly unlikely I'm sad to say) it will curbstomp WAR 6months after both have released.

AoC loses for a few reasons, not the least of which are the systems upon which it will never be played. If WAR loses, it'll be to WoW's third expansion.

And that's just based on a pure front-door comparison. Getting to the game play level itself, that's for when the NDAs drop, which given the state of both games is likely when they launch 

[Signe]

It's possible that the Drinking Cape will be the only thing saving AoC.  I mean, who doesn't want a Drinking Cape?  No one, that's who!

[Triforcer]

It's possible that the Drinking Cape will be the only thing saving AoC.  I mean, who doesn't want a Drinking Cape?  No one, that's who!

Agreed.  And it would smash WoW if you could wear a Drinking Cape AND a unicorn helmet at the same time.

[Dash]

What's the story with AoC now, when is that due out and is there any open beta I can try it out in?

[Triforcer]

What's the story with AoC now, when is that due out and is there any open beta I can try it out in?

Out May 20th.  NDA still in effect, beta not open.  Everyone has stealth and PvP servers are FFA.  After much thought,  I've decided I'm going to buy it instead of 50,000 shares of Haitian penny stock. 

[UnSub]

What's the story with AoC now, when is that due out and is there any open beta I can try it out in?

I keep waiting for the NDA to drop and open beta to start. However, I'm sure this will happen in May when I'm out of the country.

[Venkman]

If I were a betting man, I'd say AoC never enters open beta. It's too close to May for it to really provide them any sort of information they don't already know at this point imho.

[Ratman_tf]

AoC loses for a few reasons, not the least of which are the systems upon which it will never be played. If WAR loses, it'll be to WoW's third expansion.

Wuz the rumors on the system requirements for WAR? Anybody know?

[Venkman]

I found this rumor most plausible based on the screenshots they've shown of their intended graphics. Guy claims some expertise. I have no idea nor any way to really substantiate his claims.

So basically, there's really no purpose to this post

[Llava]

Did they ever fix the scaling with Ripper (level 50 Critical Strike style) or does it still do less damage than Leaper?

The game was just too complicated.  The virtues of DAoC you mentioned before left out the single most important virtue it had, though:

1) PvP mattered.

Man, the more I read shit like this the more I start wanting WAR to fucking burn and die.  Just to spite you people.  Just, no, you are wrong.  Pvp mattered more in fucking SWG@release and AC1:DT then it ever did in DAOC.  Fuck me.  PvP was the only thing that didn't suck 100% fucking crusty nutsack maybe is what you were trying to say?

A big part of the PvP in DAoC mattering was outside of game mechanics- depending on your specific server, a lot of them were small enough that you could really build a community where all the regulars knew all the other regulars, and that relationship fostered a LOT of competition.  Who knows if they'll stick with smaller server sizes or not.  Probably not, because nobody else does that and there are disadvantages- LFG!!!! LFG!!!!! LFG!!!!!!

But a big part of it was that you didn't just kill a faceless Mid.  That was Alviss.  Or Hjos.  Or Leylie.  Or any number of dozens of people I could name from Midgard alone with whom I had a competitive relationship.  Give me that and something persistent to fight for and I will fight hard.