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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979280 times)
Flood
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Reply #910 on: August 20, 2013, 11:31:04 AM


So here's some information that's actually about Wildstar:

Wildstar business model explained

Greet what arrives, escort what leaves, and rush in upon loss of contact
luckton
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Reply #911 on: August 20, 2013, 11:37:02 AM

In hindsight, SWTOR was WoW Vanilla with a Star Wars skin and fancied up quest-giver interactions.
"Hindsight"? Sure, remember it that way.  Ohhhhh, I see.

I will admit that I was psyched about SWTOR leading up to launch (thanks in part to you lot  why so serious?), but then I hit that reality wall.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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luckton
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Reply #912 on: August 20, 2013, 11:38:25 AM


So here's some information that's actually about Wildstar:

Wildstar business model explained

You're a page late and a BitCoin short.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
shiznitz
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Reply #913 on: August 20, 2013, 01:18:35 PM


So here's some information that's actually about Wildstar:

Wildstar business model explained

Is the gold/CREDD exchange rate fixed or floating? If it is floating, then this is quite a novel approach for "pay to play".

I have never played WoW.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #914 on: August 20, 2013, 01:36:38 PM

Novel as in exactly like EvE. F2P for the virtual rich. DRILLING AND MANLINESS
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 01:58:27 PM by tazelbain »

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Fordel
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Reply #915 on: August 20, 2013, 01:57:46 PM

Swtor wasn't vanilla WoW.

Swtor was TBC WoW.


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Kageru
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Reply #916 on: August 20, 2013, 03:21:43 PM


If they can get the "achievers" to believe that Wildstar is the best place to earn and display an e-peen they might pay for the privilege. I assume that's what keeps wow going. But there's probably only space for one winner in that battle. Though subs also work for small games that are dominant in their niche (ie. Eve).

GW2, SWTOR didn't have a focus on raiding and achievement so either didn't try to fight the battle (GW2) or failed (SWTOR).

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Ingmar
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Reply #917 on: August 20, 2013, 03:25:52 PM

GW2 is way more e-peen-y than SWTOR, if one of those is the game that didn't try to fight that fight, it's SWTOR. GW2 launched with an achievement system and ultra-grindy bling in the form of legendary weapons. (And don't get me started on the prestige event eye-bleedingly ugly back items that people like to show off with wings and tentacles and whatever else.)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 03:28:00 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #918 on: August 20, 2013, 06:42:07 PM

Quote
Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality

No.

Yes.

It's why more people play SWOR as a F2P than as a box cost + sub game. Or why Star Trek Online has been able to prosper.  It's why SOE is a F2P MMO developer.

The expectations around what you get for a $60 box cost plus $15 a month are too high for MMOs released after 2004 to meet for the mass market. Playing a game for free and trying to pick up a few dollars in here and there is a much easier way to get a title onto someone's HD.

Venkman
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Reply #919 on: August 20, 2013, 07:22:27 PM

Why do you think the general public is going to view F2P as budget rather than just the norm?

A lot of people conflate f2p with Facebook games. Would be more appropriate to look at WoW vs GW2. Both very quality games, but WoW had a long time to form its stickiness whereas GW2 is more of a new breed of games developed to exist with narrower resource requirements and a more diversified business model.

Does that make GW2 a "budget" title? No. But neither does GW2 carry the "stink" of having been a subs game that went to f2p as a hail mary pass. Yes, those games that did still exist and provide fun and revenue to keep people employed. But not to the scale that company nor its investors originally thought. Too bad for them, but that's why some of the late 2000s games get a bad rap that applies to f2p as well.

Carbine is pretty confident in their game. They'll be launching at a good time. But they're also still old school of an MMO enough they're taking a bigger chance than they otherwise maybe should. We'll see a few months after launch.
Draegan
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Reply #920 on: August 20, 2013, 08:00:56 PM

GW2 is not a F2P game. It's a B2P. There is a difference. There is still a $60 barrier of entry.
apocrypha
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Reply #921 on: August 20, 2013, 10:58:07 PM

GW2 is not a F2P game. It's a B2P. There is a difference. There is still a $60 barrier of entry.

And actually that's a significant barrier to many people. Myself and another friend have both been eyeing GW2 pretty much since it's launch but that cost put us off. It was only when we found a cheaper deal (£25, about $40) that we picked it up last week.

My impression (which may be wrong ofc) is that most people on these boards are working adults (also white males, but that's not really relevant here) to whom a $60 box cost or a monthly sub around $10-15 aren't difficult sums to find. That's not the case for a lot of people, especially young people at the moment - a group that's been disproportionally hit by the never-ending recession.

I don't know what the average income of the potential player base for Wildstar is, but there is very little doubt in my mind that a $60 box cost and a monthly sub is going to ensure Wildstar is a tiny, niche game right from the start. Without a sudden, massive economic recovery in the next 6 months (lol) I don't think it's going to break 300k subs. Ever.

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apocrypha
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Reply #922 on: August 20, 2013, 10:58:53 PM

Oh and this CREDD thing? That'll just turn it into an enormous grind. Anyone who's played any MMOs in the last decade knows this.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Kageru
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Reply #923 on: August 21, 2013, 02:24:03 AM

GW2 is way more e-peen-y than SWTOR, if one of those is the game that didn't try to fight that fight, it's SWTOR. GW2 launched with an achievement system and ultra-grindy bling in the form of legendary weapons. (And don't get me started on the prestige event eye-bleedingly ugly back items that people like to show off with wings and tentacles and whatever else.)

I said GW2 does not have a focus on raiding, or achievement of that type since you can get the best weapons in the game off the auction house if you care too. It's not competing with raiding games whether that be WoW or Wildstar.

SWTOR is a game based on a flawed premise, so it's not really competing with anything.

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Phred
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Reply #924 on: August 21, 2013, 05:29:50 AM

If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.

I think when people start realizing how much they spend on store items and crap they'll realize they aren't that far off or exceeding sub costs. 


This is exactly it, it's a cash grab by publishers and people are already becoming savvy to it.

If they are spending more than they paid in subs I would question how savvy they are.
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Reply #925 on: August 21, 2013, 05:41:38 AM

It's kind of a question of perceived value.

People might be okay with paying more per month in a F2P game than they would just paying a sub because the money they spend in F2P gets them stuff you normally can't buy for cash in a sub game.

In WoW you can buy sparkle ponies and a fancy helmet graphic. In RIFT you can literally just drop some cash, buy actual gear. Some people might view that as worth dropping $20 in a month once instead of just $15.

The question is what/how much do you sell and that kinda determines what audience you get.

Do you limit time and progression to either a grind or cash infusion like Spiral Knights?
Do you just have a generally free, unrestricted game but sell cosmetic doodads for people who want to play dress up?
Do you have a generally free, unrestricted game but sell new major content in packs?
Do you sell a sub with unrestricted access to everything, but allow people to run "Free" accounts where users can purchase individual account features they want?

I dunno if there's a golden answer in there somewhere that guarantees explosive popularity and profitability, or if the first thing required before a F2P model be successful is the game actually being good.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #926 on: August 21, 2013, 07:06:02 AM

Quote
Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality

No.

Yes.

It's why more people play SWOR as a F2P than as a box cost + sub game. Or why Star Trek Online has been able to prosper.  It's why SOE is a F2P MMO developer.

The expectations around what you get for a $60 box cost plus $15 a month are too high for MMOs released after 2004 to meet for the mass market. Playing a game for free and trying to pick up a few dollars in here and there is a much easier way to get a title onto someone's HD.

The market is also increasingly saturated now too. Not a lot of people will pay 60$ just to try game 45 out of 1000000 and then do it again and again.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #927 on: August 21, 2013, 07:08:32 AM

I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.

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Phred
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Reply #928 on: August 21, 2013, 07:10:13 AM


The expectations around what you get for a $60 box cost plus $15 a month are too high for MMOs released after 2004 to meet for the mass market. Playing a game for free and trying to pick up a few dollars in here and there is a much easier way to get a title onto someone's HD.

The market is also increasingly saturated now too. Not a lot of people will pay 60$ just to try game 45 out of 1000000 and then do it again and again.

With the content updates from GW2 clocking in at 1 every 2 weeks a sub game better have one a week to justify the sub, IMO.
Nebu
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Reply #929 on: August 21, 2013, 07:16:04 AM

I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.

But... but... VOICE ACTING!   why so serious?

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tazelbain
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Reply #930 on: August 21, 2013, 07:39:31 AM

I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.
I think you guys are pulling out True Scotsmen here. If SWTOR succeeded with subs, you guys would be saying "Look subs are awesome", but SWTOR failed so you say "Look its not subs fault SWTOR is a shitty game."  Bottom-line SWTOR was AAA attempt with subs that failed and was turned around with sublessness. Because it failed doesn't change the fact that it was a AAA attempt, and should be included as a data point in a discussion about if AAA MMO games better off with sub or subless.

Tons of preference bias, just because you as a customer don't like it doesn't mean  that it's the best thing for the game or games in general.

Also, hybrid model is the way best to stop me from playing. What you want me to pay union dues, and nickel and dime me? Go fuck yourself.

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Dren
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Reply #931 on: August 21, 2013, 08:02:25 AM

I'm not looking for F2P games to let me spend less money overall.  I'm looking to them to allow me to spend my money on games I actually enjoy.  I will never again spend $60+ on an MMO Box.  The success rate in entertaining me for that price has been too low in the past for me to change my ways.  I'm also not a fan of paying a monthly sub just to check back into a game to see if things got fixed.  You can read all the hype you want about an MMO, but you can't judge anything until you play it.  This isn't gambling, so why treat it that way.

I don't even mind pay-to-win models because ultimately I do believe a good game company deserves to get paid.  It is why they are in business.  Hell, I'll pay more than I used to pay for subs as long as I'm having a great time.  That's why I play games.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #932 on: August 21, 2013, 08:29:24 AM

SWTOR was a lot of money thrown at an inexperienced and frankly underqualified dev team that was told not to do anything innovative and to just copy wow.
I played SWTOR, it didn't have anything near the level of quality and polish you expect in a triple A title.  Just because you waste a lot of money on something doesn't automatically make it good.

This isn't revisionist history here, SWTOR is just a bad indicator that subs Do/Don't work.

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Hoax
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Reply #933 on: August 21, 2013, 09:09:26 AM

SWTOR was a lot of money thrown at an inexperienced and frankly underqualified dev team that was told not to do anything innovative and to just copy wow.
I played SWTOR, it didn't have anything near the level of quality and polish you expect in a triple A title.  Just because you waste a lot of money on something doesn't automatically make it good.

This isn't revisionist history here, SWTOR is just a bad indicator that subs Do/Don't work.

 Facepalm

Unlike Wildstar. You really ought to stop, those goalposts seem heavy.

While we are at it do you want to get the excuses for TESO and FF14 cratering out of the way?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 09:11:15 AM by Hoax »

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Typhon
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Reply #934 on: August 21, 2013, 09:24:18 AM

Lakov,

Some question to ask;

What was the number of paying customer that MMO X had at time of transition to F2P?

Look at http://www.mmodata.net/. Notice that SWTOR was in the big leagues at the point of transition.  Notice the arc - folks played for three months and quit.

How does this compare to other sub based MMOs over the last five years?

For MMO RPGs it's a pattern.  AoC, WAR and RIFT all follow the same arc.  The fact is that none of those were bad games for the part of the game where they focused most of their effort.  Apparently MMOs are really hard to make and customers get bored of them really quickly.

"They're all bad games!"   Facepalm  Ok, please point to a good sub-based game released in the last five years that proves the opposite.  If you cannot point to a single sub-based game that has launched in the post-WoW era that has not follow the three month sub arc you should really consider that "sub-based game done well that proves they are viable could be a white rhino".  EVERY one of these companies wanted that sweet sweet money hose.  None of them achieved it.

The fact is that you are bringing bias.  You didn't like the game, and you think it's because the game is bad.  I think it's because you've already played WoW.  You've changed.  MMO customers have changed.  WoW is now the minimum bar to entry, not the high point.  The especially tough thing about that sentence is that WoW was made during Blizzards high point as a game manufacturer and they were the clear best in the business at that time so that low bar is actually pretty high.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #935 on: August 21, 2013, 09:46:42 AM

There are to many MMO's for people to be married to them for years anymore. Most of them are the same anyway, except for the new FPS/Action games coming on the horizon.

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Nebu
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Reply #936 on: August 21, 2013, 09:49:07 AM

There are to many MMO's for people to be married to them for years anymore.

What?  I'd buy that argument if any of them were worth playing longer than 3 months.  It's not about choices.  It's about someone making a game worth sticking with.  A subscription model works if the game developer provides adequate quality and content to justify the fee.  The fact that most don't doesn't mean it isn't possible.  It just means that the industry is largely terrible at doing it.

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PalmTrees
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Reply #937 on: August 21, 2013, 09:51:34 AM

A devspeak video on crowd control, http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/21/wildstar-locks-you-down-for-a-look-at-crowd-control/#continued

You have some button mashing ways to shorten cc times if you're hit by them. Blind makes the screen dark. Disorient remaps movement keys. Pickup your weapon when disarmed. Can build up stacks to cc bosses. Also, at the end, maybe a tease of what happens when you die.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #938 on: August 21, 2013, 10:18:26 AM

There are to many MMO's for people to be married to them for years anymore.

What?  I'd buy that argument if any of them were worth playing longer than 3 months.  It's not about choices.  It's about someone making a game worth sticking with.  A subscription model works if the game developer provides adequate quality and content to justify the fee.  The fact that most don't doesn't mean it isn't possible.  It just means that the industry is largely terrible at doing it.

Right, there are more MMO games now than ever before because no one finds them enjoyable, even the free ones.  Lets be fair, the original MMO design was a labor camp that had the only jobs available. Its only now that games need to be fun beyond being a novelty/unique.

Lots of the new crop of games are fun, subjectively. But there are just to many of them to bother with being married to them for years anymore. Why would you, a new one comes out every three months.

Is EQ1 worth playing longer than 3 months at 15$? Hell no. There are many better options, its not the only gig anymore.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:20:18 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #939 on: August 21, 2013, 10:23:23 AM

Look I'm just baffled people are saying SWTOR was a good game.

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Nebu
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Reply #940 on: August 21, 2013, 10:27:06 AM

Lots of the new crop of games are fun, subjectively. But there are just to many of them to bother with being married to them for years anymore. Why would you, a new one comes out every three months.

You pay a sub because a game merits it.  The number of other choices is irrelevent if those choices are awful.  There are more choices than ever in the MMO market yet people still pay WoW a monthly fee. It's not about other choices, it's about value for your dollar.  The same could be said for hamburgers and sub sandwiches.  Some last while others don't.  Adding more options is less the issue than the perceived value.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #941 on: August 21, 2013, 10:27:50 AM

Look I'm just baffled people are saying SWTOR was a good game.

It was a decent game till you got to the end. Nothing wrong with that. I don't read the same book for 10 years ether.

There are more choices than ever in the MMO market yet people still pay WoW a monthly fee.

That has more to do with peoples time invested then it does with "fun" in my mind. Guilds, friends, and years pumped into it killing murlocs for prestige. Many will never leave that. I'm simply stating that the days of a MMO being a life choice are likely over. There are too many choices for people, and lower price points.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:30:21 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Reply #942 on: August 21, 2013, 12:01:02 PM

I had fun playing SWTOR; hell even the first couple of raids were pretty fun.

Shame about everything after that.

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amiable
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Reply #943 on: August 21, 2013, 12:08:50 PM

I think the only aspect of the game at launch that was truly, hilariously and utterly clownshoes was the RvR section.  Everything else was fun or at least passable.  I had a good time for the few months I played.
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Reply #944 on: August 21, 2013, 12:38:57 PM

SWTOR offered commodity game play.

Two years before it came out I said it was going to be Space WoW and that's exactly what it was. That was the extent of their ambition and they never even bothered pretending they wanted it to be anything more than Space WoW. There are a lot of games like WoW, including WoW itself. You can't charge for that - there are too many competing similar options many of which are free.

You can charge for something if it's something no other game offers. People pay for Eve maybe in part due to grandfathering but also because there aren't many direct competitors - if you want to play a game like Eve you have to pay to play Eve. If you want to play a game like SWTOR you can play 50 other games.

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