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f13.net General Forums => MMOG Discussion => Topic started by: Lucas on October 04, 2007, 05:07:23 PM



Title: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on October 04, 2007, 05:07:23 PM
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15745 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15745)
---

Former WoW, Fallout Designers Form Carbine

Former WoW, Fallout Designers Form Carbine NCsoft Corporation (Lineage, Guild Wars), has announced the formation of Carbine Studios, a new Aliso Viejo, CA-based studio in its online game development family, and adds that Carbine is currently working on an unannounced MMO project.

The studio is comprised of 17 former Blizzard employees including lead and senior developers from the World of Warcraft team. Carbine’s vice president of design, Kevin Beardslee, was a lead developer on WoW, while Tim Cain, Carbine’s programming director, was the producer, lead programmer and designer on Fallout, in addition to co-founding the now-defunct Troika Games (Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines).

Carbine executive producer Jeremy Gaffney previously worked as executive producer on NCsoft’s City of Heroes, and established the product development group at NCsoft’s Austin headquarters as VP of development. He was also a co-founder of Turbine, where he spearheaded development on Asheron’s Call.

“This is a dev team made in heaven,” said Robert Garriott, CEO for NCsoft’s North American business. “This group is as experienced as they come in the area of computer role playing and multiplayer game design. Making successful games is second nature to them. They are a very welcome addition to the NCsoft family. The gaming community should be excited to see what great things come out of Carbine Studios in the coming years.”

------

Official site:

http://www.carbinestudios.com/ (http://www.carbinestudios.com/)

At least, nice collection of names, same goes with Spacetime Studios.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: schild on October 04, 2007, 05:24:32 PM
(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5694/mjpopcornsm1.gif)


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: lesion on October 04, 2007, 05:31:41 PM
if it wasn't an MMO...

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/Mathx/Boner_Time_.gif)


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: schild on October 04, 2007, 05:54:38 PM
Yep.

Way to make me not care. Michael Jackson is eagerly awaiting failure.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Tisirin on October 04, 2007, 07:56:28 PM

That's what... 17 studios composed of leading / senior WoW designers?  Those guys are getting spread thin!



Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: SnakeCharmer on October 04, 2007, 08:26:53 PM
I wonder how these guys will adjust to not having a bottomless pit of cash to draw from.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Talonus on October 04, 2007, 09:11:05 PM
At some point every MMOG company will have their owner former WoW development team at the current churn rate.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Mandrel on October 04, 2007, 10:45:06 PM
I wonder how these guys will adjust to not having a bottomless pit of cash to draw from.
That's what venture capitalists are for!


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Nebu on October 05, 2007, 09:02:55 AM
It's funny to me how game development funding seems to follow some of the same trends that I see in scientific funding.  Who you worked for in the past seems to be as important/more important than the quality of your current ideas.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: shiznitz on October 05, 2007, 10:53:02 AM
I would be nice to see a dev studio run by a 30 year veteran of a real software company.  Creatives should not be running the asylum.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Krakrok on October 05, 2007, 10:58:46 AM

Get back to me in 2010 when they actually have something playable.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Morfiend on October 05, 2007, 12:38:12 PM
Hey thats where I live.

*edit*

That place is like a 2 minute drive from my house.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: bhodi on October 05, 2007, 12:47:06 PM
Could you go and beat some sense into them?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: schild on October 05, 2007, 12:53:26 PM
Could you go and beat some sense into them?

Why bother?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Yegolev on October 05, 2007, 02:03:15 PM
But Garriott says they are awesome.  Why would you beat them?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Morfiend on October 05, 2007, 02:05:51 PM
I met Garriot once at E3. He was in full lord brittish getup. Pimpin Tabula Rasa. I felt weird.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: schild on October 05, 2007, 02:06:34 PM
Did he touch you with his sputnik?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Yegolev on October 05, 2007, 02:08:23 PM
Did he smell like mothballs and brandy?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Morfiend on October 05, 2007, 06:34:47 PM
Did he smell like mothballs and brandy?

I dont remember. All I remember was him constantly saying "Let me show you something" and I wanted to run.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Soukyan on October 05, 2007, 06:42:33 PM
Well, they do have NCSoft backing for what it's worth. Of course, from the list of job postings, it may well be 2015 before they have anything to market.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: schild on October 05, 2007, 06:44:09 PM
Quote
Well, they do have NCSoft backing for what it's worth.

Depends on how much Garriott can siphon out of Korea.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: stu on October 05, 2007, 08:21:42 PM
(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5694/mjpopcornsm1.gif)

I don't like it when people eat with their mouths open.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on October 06, 2007, 09:20:19 AM
Ye olde typical medieval music track posted on the "Downloads" page:

http://www.carbinestudios.com/downloads/ (http://www.carbinestudios.com/downloads/)


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Ragnoros on October 07, 2007, 02:08:05 AM
Ye olde typical medieval music track posted on the "Downloads" page:

http://www.carbinestudios.com/downloads/ (http://www.carbinestudios.com/downloads/)

It's good they are not making another generic fantasy MMO.

Preliminary Results: ^H^H^H Fail.

Edit: They don't deserve an Epic fail.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Morfiend on October 07, 2007, 05:13:28 PM
Ye olde typical medieval music track posted on the "Downloads" page:

http://www.carbinestudios.com/downloads/ (http://www.carbinestudios.com/downloads/)

It's good they are not making another generic fantasy MMO.

Preliminary Results: ^H^H^H Fail.

Edit: They don't deserve an Epic fail.

If you look at the wallpaper right below it, there is a guy with a gun, so I think generic fantasy is wrong. Now, if they actually release anything remains to be seen.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: CharlieMopps on October 07, 2007, 05:19:17 PM
So it sounds like some former Wow devs making a sci-fi mmo? I'd be willing to give it a chance.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Ragnoros on October 07, 2007, 08:27:28 PM
If you look at the wallpaper right below it, there is a guy with a gun, so I think generic fantasy is wrong. Now, if they actually release anything remains to be seen.

Missed that.

Doubt it's Sci-Fi Mopps. Hit the link and check the first pic.

Also I'll remind you Morfiend that WoW has guns. And no one would argue it's not (mostly) generic fantasy.

Nice art anyway. Would be sweet if the game actually looked like that.

Damn I edit a lot.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Venkman on October 07, 2007, 10:12:44 PM
Has kind of a Ryzom-esque quality to it. Would love it if that art spoke of the final style. Too bad...


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on October 08, 2007, 08:04:41 AM
...And how could ya live without ye olde "introductory" interview with some high-profile member of the studio? (btw, apparently they've just wrapped up pre-production)

Gamespot interview with Kevin Beardsley (VP), Jeremy Gaffney (Executive Producer) and Eric DeMilt (Producer) (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6180469.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;2)

Ahem, can anyone translate the following answer in proper, non corporate english, please ? :P

GS: In the announcement this morning, it said Carbine would be "breaking new ground" in the MMO market. What exactly does that signify for you guys?

JG: I absolutely think there's a lot of area to evolve games, in terms of what [is] the next likely stage of things to work on." There's some things these games do really well, and there's some not so much. And so obviously, we want to chase down that path. And there are places where there are brand-new systems where you can fundamentally do stuff in a different way and really try to improve it and make it better. One of the holdovers that we have is that there's really a belief in iterating on things. You put stuff in, and then the company speaks because people are playing the games and people's friends are playing the games so there's kind of no BS. Stuff either works or it doesn't. And we're going to try to both evolve and revolt--is the unfortunate word choice [nervous laugh]--in a bunch of different ways. Evolve and revolve. And Darwinian fitness is going to say which of those survive and which of those don't.
---------

Regarding the game "Art" :

GS: Carbine's site has some interesting artwork that's got a fantasy/sci-fi look, with a sword-and-sorcery theme but characters are wearing bandoliers and pistols. Is that indicative of your first project?

JG: The art is indicative, but we're not talking a ton about the game yet because, in part, we're still in development. And we're also sort of planning our reveals on that. We're definitely letting the art speak for itself right now. We're also a fan of inventing our genres and/or crossing genres, as WOW does to an extent and some of our other games have done to an extent. But we're also into opening up some new areas where we can have some freedom to create, as opposed to working with established clichés. We're giving the creative team more interesting avenues to explore than just your traditional high fantasy or whatever...it's not, "Hey, we want to be different because we need a new genre for a business tactic." The types of choices we're making are more to do with what the creative team wants to do--where they want to take the setting and the stories and the creatures and the characters. And that's kind of how you derive some of those elements that you see in that artwork.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/277/Dagun397_screen.jpg (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/277/Dagun397_screen.jpg) -"We're gonna break yer plate mail ass, dude"


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Soln on October 08, 2007, 09:09:07 AM
Quote
it's not, "Hey, we want to be different because we need a new genre for a business tactic."

(http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/A/8/vanillaIce.jpg)


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Aez on October 08, 2007, 09:32:12 AM

JG: Loads and loads of bullshit.


Sad.  It's not 2000 anymore.  There's no place for such type of talk that early in the process.  No one cares.  Maybe it's for recruitment purpose?  They hope to get some good resumes out of this?

It reminds me of Green Monster Game.   Where's your game?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on October 08, 2007, 10:03:21 AM
It reminds me of Green Monster Game.   Where's your game?

Yeah, beside Carbine's, looks like there are a lot of prematurely announced MMOGs out there we don't know the slightest thing about (nothing strange :P) :

- Bioware ultra-uber-sekreet project
- 38 studios (GMG) MMOG
- Stargate Worlds
- STO
- Spacetime Studios space MMOG (even tho they recently started posting small blogs on the main page. New one might come out today)

Well, not to mention others, like the DC and Marvel comic-based ones, but for now we just know about them because of press-releases (yeah, ok, same for Bioware).


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 08, 2007, 10:13:39 AM
Nvm, i'm dumb.  :-D


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Jerrith on October 08, 2007, 10:26:38 AM
Yeah, beside Carbine's, looks like there are a lot of prematurely announced MMOGs out there we don't know the slightest thing about (nothing strange :P) :

- Stargate Worlds

Well, since that's what I'm working on:  http://stargateworldswiki.com (http://stargateworldswiki.com) - There's some info out there.  Yes, it is early though.

Back to the story:  This is an interesting change.  This studio was previously a direct branch of NCsoft.  What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 



Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Oban on October 08, 2007, 11:02:32 AM
Maybe NCSoft pulled an early Microsoft, a la Vanguard.

There are only so many losses a company can have before the shareholders get all  :mob: on your CEO.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Yegolev on October 08, 2007, 11:03:49 AM
What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 

NCSoft stockholders being weary of crappy titles impacting the main business?

I'll take a shot at translating the corporate-speak: We don't know what we want to make so we are going to use the iterative process until we add or trim enough features to make something that lots of people will buy into.  We are going to let the creatives run the show for a while and release a technically-deficient product, if we are lucky.  All we can guarnatee is that we will be able to make our rent for the next two years.  Please subscribe to our newsletter.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Stephen Zepp on October 08, 2007, 11:09:13 AM
What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 

NCSoft stockholders being weary of crappy titles impacting the main business?

I'll take a shot at translating the corporate-speak: We don't know what we want to make so we are going to use the iterative process until we add or trim enough features to make something that lots of people will buy into.  We are going to let the creatives run the show for a while and release a technically-deficient product, if we are lucky.  All we can guarnatee is that we will be able to make our rent for the next two years.  Please subscribe to our newsletter.

I'm going to take a devil's advocate position here (not really DA, since I mostly feel it's good, not bad)--what's wrong with what you just said (other than "technically-deficient", which isn't a logical conclusion of what you described, just a historical one) as a development process?

Most of the failures we see in games today is because no matter what development style they use (many actually are using SCRUM/Agile of some sort), the design is still very much waterfall--"we're making an MMO with X Y Z A B C D E F G, no matter what anyone tells us".

Assuming that they start with fun, and keep making sure it's fun along the way, what you just (derisively as far as I can tell) described is actually an outstanding way to do things.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Hoax on October 08, 2007, 11:15:17 AM
Remember when NCsoft was the great hope of the MMO-medium?  They had CoH and there was no way cars+guns wasn't going to be cool meanwhile SOE was butchering their games and nobody was reallying talking about EvE around here yet.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Yegolev on October 08, 2007, 11:17:23 AM
@Steven: It's a great theory, iteration.  I do it all the time, in fact, since I hate making plans or sticking to them.  My derision was directed at the feeling that they don't have anything solid right now, which means they are going to be iterating until someone kicks their door open, flips up a bullhorn and shouts "YOU SHIP GAME NOW!"  Which, of course, will be before it's ready.  In my opinion.  Hell, maybe they have a solid core idea, but I'm just going off the garbage in those quotes.  It has the quota of buzzwords, you have to admit.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Stephen Zepp on October 08, 2007, 11:32:28 AM
@Steven: It's a great theory, iteration.  I do it all the time, in fact, since I hate making plans or sticking to them.  My derision was directed at the feeling that they don't have anything solid right now, which means they are going to be iterating until someone kicks their door open, flips up a bullhorn and shouts "YOU SHIP GAME NOW!"  Which, of course, will be before it's ready.  In my opinion.  Hell, maybe they have a solid core idea, but I'm just going off the garbage in those quotes.  It has the quota of buzzwords, you have to admit.

Yes, it does, I agree :) And yes, it can "fail", in that it can give you an early out decision: "hey, you know what? this isn't fun, and no matter what we do, we're not making it any more fun."--but, that's a big advantage because many game ideas really aren't fun, and you know the old adage--you can polish a turd as much as you want, but it's still a turd when you get done.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Trippy on October 08, 2007, 11:40:23 AM
Back to the story:  This is an interesting change.  This studio was previously a direct branch of NCsoft.  What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 
Where does it say Carbine is now an independent studio?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Merusk on October 08, 2007, 11:47:44 AM
Hrm.. Call me in 3 years.  We might know what they're working on by then and I can make a decision on weather or not to care at that point.  Hell, we still don't know what Lum's working on and it's BEEN 3 years, hasn't it?

I do find the art amusingly reminiscent of Samwise's, however.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lum on October 08, 2007, 01:25:50 PM
Hell, we still don't know what Lum's working on and it's BEEN 3 years, hasn't it?

Year and a half.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Merusk on October 08, 2007, 06:58:34 PM
Aw fuck.  I've inherited my mother's sense of time.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: UnSub on October 08, 2007, 10:29:20 PM
Back to the story:  This is an interesting change.  This studio was previously a direct branch of NCsoft.  What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 

Hmm, looking at the site, this is NCsoft NA's special ex-WoW dev division that has now been turned into a separate entity. Perhaps this is because NCsoft isn't seeing TR as a saviour that is going to see the money just roll in and want to divest some of the risk of internal development. Perhaps because the WoW employees have been employed since 2005 and are yet to have even come close to releasing anything (especially given that interview, where many words were used to say not much).

Perhaps this is what NCsoft has learned is the safer path - to support external studios rather than to pour money into internal development in NA.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on October 25, 2007, 04:37:50 AM
Carbine studios: "Now with more dancing!" :P

(Interview with Jeremy Gaffney and Tim Cain: nothing new is revealed, of course, beside a certain fetish love for dancing, or something like that)

http://troikachronicles.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/carbine-studios-interview/ (http://troikachronicles.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/carbine-studios-interview/)


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Venkman on October 25, 2007, 07:41:32 AM
Back to the story:  This is an interesting change.  This studio was previously a direct branch of NCsoft.  What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 
Where does it say Carbine is now an independent studio?


Seconded.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 25, 2007, 08:33:53 AM
What prompted the change from being part of NCsoft to being an independent studio published by NCsoft? 

NCSoft stockholders being weary of crappy titles impacting the main business?

I'll take a shot at translating the corporate-speak: We don't know what we want to make so we are going to use the iterative process until we add or trim enough features to make something that lots of people will buy into.  We are going to let the creatives run the show for a while and release a technically-deficient product, if we are lucky.  All we can guarnatee is that we will be able to make our rent for the next two years.  Please subscribe to our newsletter.

I'm going to take a devil's advocate position here (not really DA, since I mostly feel it's good, not bad)--what's wrong with what you just said (other than "technically-deficient", which isn't a logical conclusion of what you described, just a historical one) as a development process?

Most of the failures we see in games today is because no matter what development style they use (many actually are using SCRUM/Agile of some sort), the design is still very much waterfall--"we're making an MMO with X Y Z A B C D E F G, no matter what anyone tells us".

Assuming that they start with fun, and keep making sure it's fun along the way, what you just (derisively as far as I can tell) described is actually an outstanding way to do things.

I have to ask. How do you Start with fun?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Tige on October 25, 2007, 09:26:16 AM
I have to ask. How do you Start with fun?

It's easy, just say it.  If, at first, you find it a bit difficult to get it out, start with some of the easier lines of bullshit er hype game development.

"next generation", "sandbox", "never before seen...", "programmed to play on a wide range of machines", "masterpiece", "brought to you by the makers of....", "we listened", "imaginative", "casual", "built for the casual and the hardcore player". 

Soon you'll find yourself convincingly using words like "truly" and "exciting" everyday!  Once you start it just gets easier and easier!  Go ahead try some of your own!


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 25, 2007, 09:36:46 AM
I have to ask. How do you Start with fun?

It's easy, just say it.  If, at first, you find it a bit difficult to get it out, start with some of the easier lines of bullshit er hype game development.

"next generation", "sandbox", "never before seen...", "programmed to play on a wide range of machines", "masterpiece", "brought to you by the makers of....", "we listened", "imaginative", "casual", "built for the casual and the hardcore player". 

Soon you'll find yourself convincingly using words like "truly" and "exciting" everyday!  Once you start it just gets easier and easier!  Go ahead try some of your own!

No, i would really like to know. How do you start with fun?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Simond on October 25, 2007, 10:18:01 AM
Design a small alpha that contains all of the core mechanics.
Have people test it.
Ask them: "Is this fun Y/N?"
Then ask them: "Why/Why not?"
Use answers to refine game.
Repeat.

Then expand the boundaries of the game.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: UnSub on October 25, 2007, 10:55:41 AM
I have to ask. How do you Start with fun?

It's easy, just say it.  If, at first, you find it a bit difficult to get it out, start with some of the easier lines of bullshit er hype game development.

"next generation", "sandbox", "never before seen...", "programmed to play on a wide range of machines", "masterpiece", "brought to you by the makers of....", "we listened", "imaginative", "casual", "built for the casual and the hardcore player". 

Soon you'll find yourself convincingly using words like "truly" and "exciting" everyday!  Once you start it just gets easier and easier!  Go ahead try some of your own!

No, i would really like to know. How do you start with fun?

Ask right up front, "What kind of experience, at the end of the day and stripped of all secondary in-game systems, are we trying to give our players?". Then tell that story to an 8-year old (or a nearby gaming journalist, if that's easier to find without scaring mothers in the local playground). Ask them if it sounds fun. If "No", start again from scratch.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Venkman on October 25, 2007, 02:37:21 PM
Prototype early and often. "Fun" is, to most, an amalgamation of past experiences. So draw up your references, coble something together, tune the hell out of it, vertical slice, go. But that's mostly only going to see you through things, like some combat and puzzlers, maybe some UI things.

Where things generally fall about is when people start asking things like "what do we do at the end of the game", "how long does it take to achieve X", "how can we have 200 different completely different and nigh-unbalanceable classes because of the continuing niave belief that more is better".


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Sutro on October 25, 2007, 06:25:00 PM
I thirst for the game that announces itself with open beta applications, launches into playable beta within a month, and then releases six months after announcement.



Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: UnSub on October 25, 2007, 09:47:46 PM
I thirst for the game that announces itself with open beta applications, launches into playable beta within a month, and then releases six months after announcement.

I don't care if they launch 12 or 24 months after beta starts, but I don't think MMOs can launch official community sites 12 months before they even have the concept art finished anymore. Pre-launch community has precious little value if it disintergrates when you announce what the game is actually going to be like. It's only the community that launches the game that counts.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on August 24, 2008, 02:20:37 PM
Now this is some serious, professional....

RISEEEE!!!!  :drill: :drill:  :ye_gods:
---

Actually, no, no news on the horizon, but today I was checking their (lots of) job opportunities (http://www.carbinestudios.com/jobs/) and this caught my eye:

SPAWNER

Carbine Studios, a software development company focused on making high-quality, cutting-edge, and conceptually innovative Massively Multiplayer Games, is seeking a talented Spawner to work on an upcoming PC MMO in their Orange County, CA development studio.
 
Responsibilities
·         Is responsible for the spawning of creatures within the MMO game environment
·         Collaborates with system and AI designers on monster and group mob creation.
·         Works closely with the level design team and the quest design team to make sure spawn groups support the needs of the game levels.
·         Attends and participates in design meetings
·         Intimate knowledge of game levels; day-to-day adjustment of spawn groups based on changes in design
·         Provides feedback and suggestions to design team
 
Qualifications
·         Minimum of 2 years professional experience working in a design role
·         Must have shipped at least one AAA quality product working in a design capacity
·         Must have experience in RPG and/or Action Adventure genres
·         MMO experience highly desired: MMO knowledge essential
·         Strong passion for games and excellent knowledge of video games, particularly RPGs
·         Strong decision-making and organizational skills
·         Ability to learn and use proprietary editor and tools for spawning
 
Pluses
·         Love of pen and paper RPGs, board games and comic books
·         Avid MMO player
 
A casual work environment, comprehensive benefits and competitive salary are all part of the package.
------


"So, Bob, what do you do for a living?"

"I work on computer games. I'm a EVIL SPAWNER".  :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: UnSub on August 24, 2008, 08:29:00 PM
It's nice to see a MMO studio where job titles and player classes could be used interchangeably.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Bungee on August 25, 2008, 07:00:22 AM
Can anybody explain to a not-so-skilled in "business english" guy what exactly "competitive salary" means?

It sounds like ehm, something I wouldn't want to work for?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Vinadil on August 25, 2008, 09:11:19 AM
Competitive seems to mean "about the same as you would make at other game development studios of equal size/status in the same position."


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Draegan on August 25, 2008, 10:48:55 AM
Tree-Fitty.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 25, 2008, 11:21:00 AM
Tree-Fitty.

(http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/303_chef_folks.gif)


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Fabricated on August 25, 2008, 09:14:41 PM
Since this thread has been necro'd...how many studios is this now with "Ex-Blizzard" staff? Anyone have a running tally on how many playable, fun games any of these studios have produced?

Looks to me Blizzard is firing all the right people.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Hutch on August 25, 2008, 11:24:23 PM
Since this thread has been necro'd...how many studios is this now with "Ex-Blizzard" staff? Anyone have a running tally on how many playable, fun games any of these studios have produced?

Looks to me Blizzard is firing all the right people.

Not only have there been studios that haven't produced a playable fun game yet... (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13751.0)

...there is at least one studio formed of now-second-generation-former-Blizzard developers. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14051.0)

Mmmm. The worm turns, devouring as it goes. Where will Carbine's developers wind up? Check back in a year, when we second-generation necro this thread!




Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Fabricated on August 25, 2008, 11:49:31 PM
Okay so basically none.

I'm in the wrong field. You think I could get a ton of venture capital to piss away if I first got some scrubby marketing, management, or bean counting job at Blizzard and triumphantly quit about a half year later so I can have this pedigree of being "ex-Blizzard"?


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Margalis on August 26, 2008, 12:29:07 AM
Aren't the Guild Wars guys ex-Blizzard?

It always annoys me when a plus for a job is that you like that genre of game. I think that sometimes it makes sense to hire people who don't like that genre of game because they can see through the genre-convention BS. Hire a bunch of dudes who love WOW and they'll make a WOW clone. Hire a bunch of people who aren't fans of MMORPGs and you'll get something interesting.

Obviously you don't want a bunch of people who hate their jobs and the game they are working on, but looking for drooling fans doesn't strile me as a good idea unless you are trying to create a knockoff.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Trippy on August 26, 2008, 02:33:46 AM
Aren't the Guild Wars guys ex-Blizzard?
Yes they are.


Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on September 22, 2008, 04:55:50 PM
A level 99 Lead Quest Designer sits before you, wearing nerdy glasses. The wall behind him looks like he's going to be shot down right after his last words.

Do you:


A) Compassionately watch and listen to what he has to say (http://vault.ign.com/View.php?view=movies.detail&id=8) ;

B) Cowardly run away, and watch something else (http://www.youporn.com/) (NSFW!!!) ;

C) Honourably tell the original poster of this thread to STFU about a game that will be released in approx. 7 years or more.


Choose wisely, O' Seeker.  :ye_gods:




Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Lucas on July 28, 2011, 04:46:49 PM
Whoa.....RISEEEEEE AGAIN!!!!!  :drill:

Carbine Studios might finally unveil their MMOG at Gamescom, in mid-august (yeah, yeah, of this year, meaning 2011 :P):

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/07/28/ncsofts-carbine-studios-to-reveal-new-mmo-at-gamescom/

New website is online:

http://www.carbinestudios.com/en

At the time I'm writing this, if you don't put the "/en" it will direct you to the old website. There is a new blog post by Jeremy Gaffney, executive producer (fhttp://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,41034/).


- They worked in  "stealth" mode for a very long time, considering when they opened the software house website (october 2007). Since then, only vague interviews. The only thing we know, beside the project having Fallout's (and Troika's) Tim Cain at the helm (well, designers' helm, at least), is that it should combine sci-fi and fantasy elements. Also, probably a strong focus on narrative and story, akin to Bioware. That's it.

EDIT

An interesting link I found among Massively's comments to the above mentioned article:

http://verticasino.net/2011/06/ncsoft-has-not-really-known-to-be-gentle/#more-39

Quote
Yet a very discrete project, also based on a futuristic world, continued to be fueled for years by NCsoft. Buoyed by former developers of World of Warcraft, the MMO Carbine had hitherto contented to publish excerpts from the soundtrack and the very rare interviews with its developers were kindly understand that the time was in total silence.
However, last May, IGN was able to meet at the LOGIN Conference, Mitch Ferguson, producer and lead designer at Carbine Studios system and very discreet about the project by NCsoft. Ferguson lifted a corner of the veil in us by saying a little about the context of its MMO: It’s a fantasy world with spaceships and space.
When I say fantastic, it mean that we kept all the traditional archetypes of fantastic games but not their breeds. So there will be no dwarves but there are great people and other small and we have magic and swords but all in a sci-fi world so there will be electronics, robots and spaceships.
It also reveals that his game will not forget the social side of online games: I think what is most lacking (in WoW and other games lately) what are the social systems. MMOs are really missing good tools guilds, skill shops depth of thing people could do outside of combat.
We have started a game designer (Note: Victoria Moran, we were talking a few months ago) whose work full time and work on social play-anything that will make the players talk to each other. Another avenue towards greater social massively multiplayer games could be dedicated networks (Translator’s note: like Facebook or Twitter) what we’re trying to do is make it really easy to find people with whom to play, stay contact with people you like and you can play the game from anywhere outside the game.

Oh, and....ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Cain

Cain left Carbine Studios in July 2011 for unknown reasons.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Malakili on July 28, 2011, 05:16:10 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/6wVpq.jpg)



Title: Re: Feel Da Hype: Carbine Studios
Post by: Trippy on July 28, 2011, 05:18:57 PM
Cain left Carbine Studios in July 2011 for unknown reasons.
[/quote
I smell another TR.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: UnSub on July 28, 2011, 09:55:49 PM
I hope to god that is a translated post, or the author doesn't have English as a first language.

As for the MMO: let's see it. A title that started in 2007 is going to have design decisions fueled by what happened in MMOs up to that point; the market in 2011 has changed a lot since then.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: DLRiley on July 29, 2011, 03:58:26 AM
Would be true if current MMo devs weren't still designing games for 2002. WAR, AoC and Aion thought they were competing with EQ1 and DaoC. Rift thinks its 2004 again.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: TripleDES on July 29, 2011, 05:50:05 AM
This yet another fantasy MMO?!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: UnSub on July 29, 2011, 08:19:27 AM
This yet another fantasy MMO?!

Fantasy, sci-fi AND quirky, if I'm reading things correctly.

Seen a rumour this may be the WildStar game that NCsoft bought trademarks et al a while ago for.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Amaron on July 29, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
AND quirky ... WildStar

Too bad it has fantasy themes or they could channel Firefly and cut their marketing budget in half.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: SnakeCharmer on July 30, 2011, 07:59:36 AM
WildStar...as in....Star Blazers?  Or the comic?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: UnSub on July 31, 2011, 01:29:23 AM
WildStar...as in....Star Blazers?  Or the comic?

Not the Image comic. Extremely unlikely to be related to Star Blazers.

As I said, that was the rumour I saw in a few places, but it may not turn out to be true.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Simond on July 31, 2011, 05:17:13 PM
Star Blazers
Hnngh.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: SnakeCharmer on July 31, 2011, 05:24:32 PM
Those two were the two top things the almighty google showed me.

No idea what WildStar is/could be.  Enlighten me, UnSub?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: UnSub on July 31, 2011, 10:32:12 PM
Just a possible name. Like Lum's cancelled title was Blighted Empires. NCsoft goes out and buys the various names needed for their games long before they are announced and apparently have been sitting on WildStar for a while.

It could also point to the lore of the title, that a 'Wild Star' is somehow important to the game.

But then they could also announce that Carbine's new game is "Flippy McMuffin's Great Landscape Wander Online" and we'd still be ahead on what we know about a title that has been in development for 4 - 5 years.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Stormwaltz on August 02, 2011, 12:19:12 PM
Just a possible name. Like Lum's cancelled title was Blighted Empires.

Blast. And all this time I thought that was Whamadoodles Online.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Furiously on August 03, 2011, 02:03:31 PM
I hate those Nazi furries.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Lucas on August 07, 2011, 06:07:42 PM
APPLY NOW!!! :D

http://www.carbinestudios.com/en/jobs-listing/seasoned_explorer.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Lantyssa on August 07, 2011, 06:20:43 PM
I'm almost tempted.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Lucas on August 10, 2011, 10:38:25 AM
The following position might appeal to you even more:

Battle-Hardened Soldier:

Quote
NCsoft is seeking an experienced fighter for a consulting position at Carbine Studios in Aliso Viejo, CA. Candidate would be assigned to their top-secret project.

To secure the position, the candidate must have:

Intergalactic security clearance
Proven experience in combat (especially with recently-discovered life-forms)
Extensive knowledge of cutting-edge weaponry and the ability to adapt to new technology as it is invented
Experience handling endless waves of enemies in seemingly hopeless situations (this is a plus)
Candidates will be subjected to daily obstacle courses requiring quick reflexes and MacGyver-like adaptability - loss of limbs practically guaranteed. Ability to tell horrific stories about scars by a campfire while chugging homemade whiskey expected.

MUST BE READY TO WORK BY AUGUST 17, 2011. NO EXCEPTIONS!

To apply, please send a cover letter and resume with references (of your ability to outrun bear-sized creatures preferably) to ArkShip@carbinestudios.com

Hmm, have to check about my intergalactic clearance, offices are quite slow granting that :(
----

In other news, the Arkship is reaching its long-awaited destination (1920x1200 game artwork):



Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: SnakeCharmer on August 10, 2011, 10:59:51 AM
What are these guys up to....


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Lantyssa on August 10, 2011, 11:00:42 AM
Proven experience in combat (especially with recently-discovered life-forms)
Forgotten left-overs count, right?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Lucas on August 17, 2011, 06:35:15 AM
And here is Wildstar !

Trailer is...well, WILD!!! (and I found it pretty well done and funny)

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: PalmTrees on August 17, 2011, 07:09:44 AM
Fun trailer, although the purple bunny girl was stereotypically useless. Being both the girl and the peaceful, reasonable one. The trigger happy vet and the reckless guy both got to blow away enemies with big attacks while her sparkle attack did nothing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Lucas on August 17, 2011, 07:32:58 AM
Gameplay footage from Gamescom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zooOjqhUH0Q

From the description:

"Developed by NCsoft's Southern California-based Carbine Studios, WildStar offers epic high adventure, where players make their mark as Explorers, Soldiers, Scientists or Settlers and lay claim to a mysterious planet on the edge of known space. WildStar's iconic visual style and "Momentum Mechanics" immerse players in a deep world stacked with content, challenges and rewards that respond to the play style choices of individual players. "

Nice, I love the art style and the character animations.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 17, 2011, 07:41:44 AM
Look decent, but doesn't really inspire me either.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 17, 2011, 07:45:42 AM
Detailed overview of the game:

http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/17/carbine-announces-wildstar-aims-at-mmo-reinvention/

Also:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/08/17/wildstar-preview-hands-on-with-the-stylish-new-mmo/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/17/wildstar-preview/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-17-wildstar-preview
http://www.g4tv.com/games/pc/65701/wildstar/articles/75286/wildstar-hands-on-preview-far-from-your-typical-fantasy-mmo-staring-magical-bunny-women/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hawkbit on August 17, 2011, 08:55:53 AM
Look decent, but doesn't really inspire me either.

Yeah, I don't quite get this one.  It doesn't help that it didn't offer gameplay.  Looks to be a simple ranged/lmelee/powers setup.  Also, Viera.  Why bunny-eared lady?  Cute and quirky space cartoon doesn't seem like it would be a big seller.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 17, 2011, 09:12:24 AM
It appears to be a modern DIKU MMO with DIKU MMO combat but no autoattack, like it appears to be in SWTOR.

We won't know if the holy trinity will be prevalent yet.

Remember to sign up for beta on the homepage!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 17, 2011, 09:16:51 AM
I like it.  A lot (so far).  But it's almost like the game was developed purely for my ridiculous tastes.
This does not bode well for the rest of you.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 17, 2011, 09:31:01 AM
You seem to know a lot about this game from the little information released.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 17, 2011, 09:31:27 AM
I like that it doesn't take itself too seriously, I like the style, and I get a very big ratchet and clank vibe from it.

The combat looks like standard fare, and for me, boring. This should have been an action game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios MMO
Post by: Jobu on August 17, 2011, 10:51:21 AM
Nice, I love the art style and the character animations.

I agree, fantastic presentation and style throughout.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Engels on August 17, 2011, 10:57:58 AM
Steampunk Wow from the looks of the art direction. Shoulderpads a must.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Morfiend on August 17, 2011, 11:33:59 AM

Remember to sign up for beta on the homepage!

I signed up and also added F13 as an interested gaming group.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 17, 2011, 11:35:15 AM

Remember to sign up for beta on the homepage!

I signed up and also added F13 as an interested gaming group.

Ahem...same  :drill:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: shiznitz on August 17, 2011, 12:26:13 PM
The new take on the class system is cool.  Instead of a class just defining the way you kill things, the tasks are actually different.  Obviously, this put a lot of pressure on content design but it should give significant replayability.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on August 17, 2011, 01:02:57 PM
The new take on the class system is cool.  Instead of a class just defining the way you kill things, the tasks are actually different.  Obviously, this put a lot of pressure on content design but it should give significant replayability.

Your character class is separate from Paths - you pick a class for combat, but then that explorer/soldier/etc thing you pick as well.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: RUiN 427 on August 17, 2011, 02:54:47 PM
This is on my radar... though a mac client is doubtful based on the beta sign up process.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 17, 2011, 04:52:07 PM
It's scary how this is almost exactly like my first thoughts on hearing the name.  Feels very inspired by Outlaw Star, Trigun and similar anime.  The ingame screens give me a very Titan AE feel for the art style curiously.  Feels like they're really shooting for a blending of anime and more traditional western stuff.  For me personally at least that stuff hit all my buttons.

Edit: I also signed up for beta and listed F13.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 17, 2011, 05:09:12 PM
Visually it reminds me more of Free Realms or LEGO than anything else.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 17, 2011, 05:32:07 PM
Like I said, I was especially surprised by the animations...Maybe I was skeptic considering how..."doubtful" they are by looking at the TOR ones (even though they are getting better). But yes, it might be something also related to the different engine they use, I don't know anything about computer animation.

Not surprisingly, among other developers, they have Kevin Beardslee (Lead Animator of 2004 WoW and later, founder of Carbine itself) and Matt Mocarski, credited among "Dungeon/City Artist" of the original WoW. Not implying anything about the quality of the gameplay itself, just sayin'....


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: koro on August 17, 2011, 05:57:01 PM
Quote
Nosing at it, following leads, I stumbled into bonus quests such as a chasing a floating spatial anomaly, which granted me mega-jump powers that enabled me to reach the top of towering spire. For doing this, the game gifted me some gloves and experience. I hadn’t had to kill 10 rats to do this. I’d instead wandered away from the mobs, to the edges of the map, and I’d found things to do. Another asked me to plant a locator beacon on the top of a high pile of boulders – inaccessible, of course. But Explorers can see/activate paths that other playstyles can’t – tracking my way to a subtly-marked point on my minimap, I found the requisite hotspot, right-clicked and a series of platforms appeared on the side of rocky tower. Up ‘em I went, and my beacon was safely planted. Ding! Gifts for me.

Maybe I'm just not jaded enough, but this sounds like it could be really fun and interesting provided it's done right.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: stu on August 17, 2011, 06:04:15 PM
The animation style reminded me of the ground unit clips from the original Blackstar video that came out a while back.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 17, 2011, 06:16:38 PM
The animation style reminded me of the ground unit clips from the original Blackstar video that came out a while back.

I was thinking the same, actually:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc8dXW61bv4

That's a "Blackstar" presentation back in 2008 (I was really looking forward to it, sigh). As you might know, the game (developed by Spacetime Studios, at the time another division of NCsoft, I think) was eventually cancelled, Spacetime Studios went on its own and now it's primarily a mobile phone game developer (and I think they're trying to revive their original attempt, albeit in a smaller scale). But yeah, probably just a vague similarity :)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on August 17, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
I signed up for beta, but first appearances don't thrill me either.

Also: you don't need my home address for a beta sign-up. You aren't going to be mailing me anything, or calling me on the phone to ask why I haven't been playing, so don't ask for unnecessary information.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 17, 2011, 08:41:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MnM_LByfw4&feature=player_embedded


Gameplay video.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 17, 2011, 08:45:43 PM
Looks like a wow killer :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hawkbit on August 17, 2011, 08:49:15 PM
Style/settings are pretty.  Everything else looks 2005.  Slow running, slow combat animations.  It literally looks like a WoW starter zone, but more confined.  I thought we were moving past WoW design now?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 17, 2011, 08:54:37 PM
Ho hum.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 17, 2011, 08:57:26 PM
Style/settings are pretty.  Everything else looks 2005.  Slow running, slow combat animations.  It literally looks like a WoW starter zone, but more confined.  I thought we were moving past WoW design now?

More like 2002 but continue  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: stu on August 17, 2011, 09:05:51 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc8dXW61bv4

That's a "Blackstar" presentation back in 2008 (I was really looking forward to it, sigh).

That's the one. Not to veer off too much, but I could go for a fast paced space fighter game right about now.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Jobu on August 17, 2011, 09:35:49 PM
You know what else, this is a fantastic way to reveal and announce your project.

A great trailer, followed up with tons of actual screenshots (with actual diversity), and videos of it completely playable and live. No countdowns to an announcement about a name and a barren website, followed weeks later by a teaser trailer, then a real trailer, then maybe a single screenshot, blahblahblah.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 17, 2011, 09:36:48 PM
You know what else, this is a fantastic way to reveal and announce your project.

A great trailer, followed up with tons of actual screenshots (with actual diversity), and videos of it completely playable and live. No countdowns to an announcement about a name and a barren website, followed weeks later by a teaser trailer, then a real trailer, then maybe a single screenshot, blahblahblah.

Yea, I'll give them credit for that.  Too bad the game doesn't look that interesting.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 17, 2011, 09:39:39 PM
I actually give them credit for showing there level 1 gameplay instead of there level 80 gameplay.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Cadaverine on August 17, 2011, 10:27:48 PM
I liked the "double-tap W, or S, to dodge the big bad attack" mechanic, though I'd rather the tell were somewhat more subtle than a cast bar.  Hopefully, there's more of that sort of thing in the game, because the rest of what they showed in that video was pretty uninspiring.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 18, 2011, 06:19:47 AM
Gameplay livestream starting in a few, here (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ncsoftteam#utm_campaign=synclickback&source=http://us.ncsoft.com/en/events/gamescom_2011.html#17868&medium=9093164)

http://us.ncsoft.com/en/events/gamescom_2011.html#17868

Quote
WildStar Stage Demo - The Planet Nexus
Be one of the first people to see WildStar in action on the big screen! Carbine will be demonstrating WildStar, and talking about features and game play elements in this live walkthrough.

EDIT: just finished watching the gameplay live session.

- Yes, at first sight it surely looked a bit generic, as in "go grab quests and kill generic stuff", but then it quickly became more dynamic, especially considering that they shown starting stuff. Let's say it was more like the new WoW starting zone approach than, for example, the old, tedious Tauren starting zone one (especially all those kill quests in Bloodhoof village).

Beside the very good animations and the cool-looking environments, it looked like that quests are updated on the fly, with new objectives and things to do while you are actually out on a mission. It seemed to me that you deal with enemies quite quickly, with a more "actiony" approach so that you get to the "meat" of the quest without the tedium of killing a lot of stuff (again, speaking of what I saw from the gameplay video). That "beacon tower" quest looked nice, and also you got reward for you chosen path, which I think was the explorer one, by doing stuff related to your "path".

There will be another Q&A session in about two hours, but I think it will be in german only.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 18, 2011, 01:38:17 PM
Complete, good-quality walkthrough in english (of a Human Spellslinger, Explorer Path):

Part I:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-11-wildstar/719395

Part II:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-11-wildstar/719396

Part III:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-11-wildstar/719397

Part IV:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-11-wildstar/719398



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 18, 2011, 02:44:09 PM
I thought we were moving past WoW design now?
Haha, what made you think that? The second-most-successful Western pay-to-play MMO at the moment is a WoW-clone and the Next Big Thing is a WoW-clone.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on August 18, 2011, 03:41:45 PM
I liked the "double-tap W, or S, to dodge the big bad attack" mechanic, though I'd rather the tell were somewhat more subtle than a cast bar.  Hopefully, there's more of that sort of thing in the game, because the rest of what they showed in that video was pretty uninspiring.

Sometimes you really have to make the tells big and flashy to drive it into someone's head, though.

The tells for those starter yeti is that there is an animation of them leaning back and inhaling, with a sound, a cast bar, and a giant red cone on the ground indicating where it's going to hit with the attack. And that's just for a starter creature. Even with all that, there is still plenty of footage of people playing the demo just autoattacking the creature, blissfully unaware.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nija on August 21, 2011, 10:29:29 AM
Haha, what made you think that? The second-most-successful Western pay-to-play MMO at the moment is a WoW-clone and the Next Big Thing is a WoW-clone.

I'm way past done with wow and wow clones. In fact I'm writing off games the instant that I see hovering "QUEST'S HERE" (say that in Paulie D's voice from Jersey Shore) icons above stationary NPCs heads. They can be yellow exclamation points or other cute icons but no more CAB'S HERE/QUEST'S HERE trash in my trailer.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hawkbit on August 21, 2011, 10:36:51 AM

I'm way past done with wow and wow clones. In fact I'm writing off games the instant that I see hovering "QUEST'S HERE" (say that in Paulie D's voice from Jersey Shore) icons above stationary NPCs heads. They can be yellow exclamation points or other cute icons but no more CAB'S HERE/QUEST'S HERE trash in my trailer.

This is a really big point to me - I think there's obviously better ways of showing quests than Everquest had, where you had to hunt and peck at the game world, then dialog to get anywhere.  But the yellow exclamation points are simply overboard.  It is one of the huge turnoffs I have when examining a new game.  The yellow exclamation point just screams "treadmill". 

Then again, I want more immersive online worlds and less game. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 21, 2011, 02:20:04 PM
Reading around the net as usual the comments on the style I've seen are sort of overwhelmingly positive.   Gamers are older but I'm getting the feeling that this one is going to be a generational gap thing.   I haven't even seen the usual realism trolls.   I guess it's so far from realism that they don't even feel it's worth arguing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 23, 2011, 01:08:28 AM
So, here is a great video walkthrough of the entire starting zone, called "Northern Wilds", complete with a short istanced area at the end. It runs for 37 minutes, good quality, and it's narrated by Lead Creative Writer Chad Moore (worked on games like Arcanum, Fallout 2, Vampire: Bloodlines).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiOseZt_dDo

It's a change from other gameplay videos floating around 'cause you are following an Aurin Esper (bunny!!!  :drill:), instead of the Human Spellslinger. Path is the same: Explorer. The main mechanics (at least those unveiled so far) are explained: challenges, "momentum", special UI features, combat actions and more.

What I like the most is how "layered" the experience seem to be: yes, there is your average "kill stuff throughout the zone and grab quests" one, but there is also a lot more. Very dynamic and, *gosh*, quite fun to follow as a simple video spectator, considering is a MMO.
----

Another interesting video: "Paths" presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcU3qqsWjbc

It's basically a summary of the "paths" the player can undertake. Settler sounds quite different! (starts at about 2m 33s)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 23, 2011, 06:46:04 AM
If they improve the intro, I would actually play this based on the path system (combat obviously). Look there is nothing wrong with wading into mobs and slaughter them 3-4 at a time. As long as its not boring, not staring at an xp bar, generally not getting "old" with your content. One of my first mmo's had me fight zombies out in the desert area, for 1 week that was the most fun i had ever... unfortunately that was about it for the game for at least 15 level and after 1 week of killing zombies I'd had advanced 2 levels  :awesome_for_real: Diku's are boring because they are generic grindy pieces of shit. Not because the gameplay isn't can't be fun otherwise why are we frothy at the mouth for diablo 3? 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 23, 2011, 08:39:05 AM
Diku's are boring because they are generic grindy pieces of shit. Not because the gameplay isn't can't be fun otherwise why are we frothy at the mouth for diablo 3? 

I disagree, I think it is absolutely because the gameplay isn't fun.  Make a Borderlands MMO and I bet a lot of us sick of the current crop of MMORPGs would play the hell out of it.   Grinding is a meaningless term - it vaguely describes "The game is convincing me to keep playing to attain an in game goal even though its not fun for me to play"  People never trot out the word "grind" when they are having fun actually playing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on August 23, 2011, 08:44:54 AM
Yeah, I'd play the hell out of that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 23, 2011, 09:44:37 AM
You take any game and bury it under a mountain of "play x hours to unlock y" and you made a pretty effective filter. WAR, AoC, Aion, Chronicles of Spellborn, Rift etc

Lets take Chronicles, it wasn't a bad game play wise. Actually it was great. You had a skill deck system that effectively rotates so you can do combos. You can select different skills or multiple copies of the same skills on your skill deck (each style had its advantages), and every skill had to be aimed. You can also effectively dodge skills by basic movement (juking), applying speed buffs, and using line of sight (no shooting through stuff). Sounds fun right? It was and probably still will be if the game didn't insist on boring you to death  with what you actually used that neat system to do.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Stormwaltz on August 23, 2011, 10:26:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcU3qqsWjbc

It's basically a summary of the "paths" the player can undertake. Settler sounds quite different! (starts at about 2m 33s)

I question the split of the Scientist/Explorer roles. They've conflated lore-delving with - by their own definition - achievement whoring. It seems to me there'd be a lot more overlap between people who like lore and people who like to explore the landscape and find unusual sites. Achievement whores are more about ticking items off on a list.

But maybe I'm biased because that's how it shakes out with me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 23, 2011, 10:47:10 AM
I thought Chronicles was a badass game.  But the grinding was fucking awful, so I quit.  I really had fun actually playing it though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 23, 2011, 11:08:10 AM
I thought Chronicles was a badass game.  But the grinding was fucking awful, so I quit.  I really had fun actually playing it though.

What do you really mean though?  It sounds like you are just saying "It was fun until I had to repeat stuff too much and then it got boring."  If it kept being fun to play that entire time, you wouldn't have minded, at some point it stopped.  It sounds to me like issue is that the gameplay didn't hold up to a lot of repetition.  There are plenty of games in which I've happily played the same thing literally 1000s of times without seeing it as grinding - so it seems to me that grinding itself can't be the issue unless the gameplay doesn't hold up.  What makes playing dustbowl for the 25,000th time more fun than killing the 25,000th boar in an MMORPG - the gameplay. 




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 23, 2011, 12:41:44 PM
I meant exactly what I said. 

I really enjoyed my time playing.  But when it got to a point where character progression just stopped because the exp curve went through the roof, I stopped playing.

Also, solo play kinda ended as well I think, but it's been a few years.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Morfiend on August 23, 2011, 12:58:18 PM
To me "Grind" usually means "repetition to the point of not being fun". I agree with whomever posted above that Grind really doesnt mean much these days. Back in the old days it meant sitting at a camp and killing the same mob over and over again. These days people just use it to mean "not fun". I think we need to get an internet ruling on the term myself.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on August 23, 2011, 01:09:55 PM
I question the split of the Scientist/Explorer roles. They've conflated lore-delving with - by their own definition - achievement whoring. It seems to me there'd be a lot more overlap between people who like lore and people who like to explore the landscape and find unusual sites. Achievement whores are more about ticking items off on a list.

But maybe I'm biased because that's how it shakes out with me.
I'm the same.  I'm split on which I would want to choose, because I enjoy exploring lore as much as finding out of the way places.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 23, 2011, 01:11:38 PM
Ok, we can stop confusing people with a common term used for 10 years, lets call it "what I AM doing is not what I WANT to be doing"

AoC for another example, Its combat was praised on every gaming site known to man. Finally every sword and board kiddy can finally aim there sword, hit someone, and even hit the person next to him. It was the jebus of game design, you had combos which had starters and finishers and you could actively block and evade attacks. The days of stand and trade blows combat is over funcom declared, and they were right, and people loved them and pve'ers sang there praise for 20 levels and the magic ride ended there. The fourms ran red with the blood of subscriptions being canceled as the fanboys hugged themselves jeering and weeping as they told there fellow gamers to go back to WoW, that the grind wasn't that bad, that there need not be an endgame! They wondered why one of the first action oriented mmo's, the first brake from staple diku combat, could fail so miserably.  


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 23, 2011, 01:21:36 PM
Ok, we can stop confusing people with a common term used for 10 years, lets call it "what I AM doing is not what I WANT to be doing"

AoC for another example, Its combat was praised on every gaming site known to man. Finally every sword and board kiddy can finally aim there sword, hit someone, and even hit the person next to him. It was the jebus of game design, you had combos which had starters and finishers and you could actively block and evade attacks. The days of stand and trade blows combat is over funcom declared, and they were right, and people loved them and pve'ers sang there praise for 20 levels and the magic ride ended there. The fourms ran red with the blood of subscriptions being canceled as the fanboys hugged themselves jeering and weeping as they told there fellow gamers to go back to WoW, that the grind wasn't that bad, that there need not be an endgame! They wondered why one of the first action oriented mmo's, the first brake from staple diku combat, could fail so miserably.  

What I'm saying is that a game that is fun is fun regardless of how often the game sucks your dick with a new level.   If you stop getting shiny from the game and you feel like quitting, thats probably a good sign you should've quit a while ago.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 23, 2011, 01:48:35 PM
First Action MMO? No.

AOC has the typical MMO issues for many, combat wasn't really one.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 23, 2011, 02:47:26 PM
I disagree, I think it is absolutely because the gameplay isn't fun.  Make a Borderlands MMO and I bet a lot of us sick of the current crop of MMORPGs would play the hell out of it.   Grinding is a meaningless term - it vaguely describes "The game is convincing me to keep playing to attain an in game goal even though its not fun for me to play"  People never trot out the word "grind" when they are having fun actually playing.

Wait are you arguing that diku combat shouldn't exist or that you're just tired of it?   I want to play some action MMO's as well of but not all the time.   I'd rather not pit my reflexes against 16 year olds in an MMO I'm actually serious about.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: PalmTrees on August 23, 2011, 02:51:45 PM
Gameplay in the video looked ok. Small addition to the target and hotkey combat (which is just fine with me) with the moving out of the circle. I liked the quest updates by video phone in the corner. Environmental hazards look a bit tedious and static. Had to dodge the same ones going down the mountain as he did coming up.

Do not like the design of the bunny girl. The purple furry ears and tail look like costume bits added on. More like a cosplayer than a different species. Also the tail is just too big for her body. Are there bunny boys and rock girls or are the races gender locked?

Got a chuckle about the theme of the zone being saving everyone from freezing to death while the character was running around in a short sleeved shirt/hot pants outfit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DLRiley on August 23, 2011, 02:54:20 PM
Ok, we can stop confusing people with a common term used for 10 years, lets call it "what I AM doing is not what I WANT to be doing"

AoC for another example, Its combat was praised on every gaming site known to man. Finally every sword and board kiddy can finally aim there sword, hit someone, and even hit the person next to him. It was the jebus of game design, you had combos which had starters and finishers and you could actively block and evade attacks. The days of stand and trade blows combat is over funcom declared, and they were right, and people loved them and pve'ers sang there praise for 20 levels and the magic ride ended there. The fourms ran red with the blood of subscriptions being canceled as the fanboys hugged themselves jeering and weeping as they told there fellow gamers to go back to WoW, that the grind wasn't that bad, that there need not be an endgame! They wondered why one of the first action oriented mmo's, the first brake from staple diku combat, could fail so miserably.  

What I'm saying is that a game that is fun is fun regardless of how often the game sucks your dick with a new level.   If you stop getting shiny from the game and you feel like quitting, thats probably a good sign you should've quit a while ago.


I find TF2 Fun. I played it for hours, like 5-7 hour sessions straight till the computer over heats, never got bored.
I find Chronicles of Spellborn fun. I played it for hours, 2-4 hour sessions, got bored.

All I'm saying is that there is a big divide between finding what you CAN do fun and finding what your DOING fun, a divide most mmo's don't acknowledge exist so they bull ahead with game design decisions that make the game uninteresting and wonder why no ones interested.

And no AoC was probably not the first action mmo, but it was hyped as such. My post never stated anything wrong with AoC combat.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 29, 2011, 01:23:25 PM
Interview with Executive Producer Jeremy Gaffney (some new info here and there):

http://www.tentonhammer.com/wildstar/interviews/cons-2011

- Two Factions: Dominion and Exiles; humans in both factions, the other races are unique to each faction (regarding the Exiles, apparently there are more besides Granoks and Aurins) ;
- Fully "mod-able" UI;

- Possibility of playing in space? (no free-flight space travel, though):


About the "Settler" path (still nebulous...it shows that they're still heavily tackling it):


- Regarding the starting areas:


Some more stuff at the above mentioned link.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on June 13, 2012, 05:00:30 PM
Sooo, what's been happening in the last 10 months

Err, not much really, at least public-wise: lots of blogging and some hints here and there about their take on some gameplay features (and design in general), but that's it. Looks like they'll save most of the new stuff (especially a more detailed look at the "settler" path) for this year's Gamescom.

Some highlights:

- Just posted: a quick look to the ongoing "Friends and Family" testing (I really dig the art style; looks like they're also going for a "tera-like" targeting system?)
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_an_inside_look_at_wildstars_friends_family.php

- the job of the "narrative designer":
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_the_story_of_an_epic_world.php

- "Quest text in 140 characters" part 1:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_quest_text_in_140_characters_more_or_less.php

- "Quest text in 140 characters" part 2:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_quest_text_in_140_characters_more_or_less_part2.php

- Northern Wilds (first zone of the game, I think, at least for one of the factions) bestiary:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_northern_wilds_bestiary.php

- Northern Wilds minibosses:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_northern_wilds_minibosses.php

- Musical score:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_wildstar_music.php

- "Algoroc" zone (immediately after Northern Wilds, I think):
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_introduction_to_algoroc.php

- Algoroc rogues:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_algoroc_rogues_gallery.php

- Wildstar will feature UI add-ons !
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_yes_well_have_ui_addons.php

- "Quality of life" features:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_jeremy_gaffney_on_quality_of_life_features.php

- Insights into Eldan technologies:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_insights_into_eldan_technology.php

- A scientific analysis of "Loftite":
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_-_a_scientific_analysis_of_loftite.php

- "Gallow" a settlement located inside the Algoroc zone:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_welcome_to_gallow.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: ashrik on June 14, 2012, 10:15:10 PM
I was watching a video of this over at RPS (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/14/the-paths-to-glory-wildstar/) and I do like how it looks. The gameplay, not the neon fox-tails, that is. Very action game vibe to the combat, which I'm really digging as a new trend for MMOs.  After clicking on one of Lucas's videos, that is not the face/neckbeard I expected to see with that voice.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on June 29, 2012, 01:00:56 AM
They put up another short video showing some group combat:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/28/wildstars-group-combat-looks-sort-of-familiar/

I have to say despite not liking the holy trinity the whole free form targeting in combat looks really fun.  It reminds me a lot of LoL combat almost.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 02, 2012, 03:36:48 PM
"PROTOSTAR CORPORATION ANNOUNCES NEXUS HOUSING INITIATIVE" :
http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/blog/protostar_corporation_announces_nexus_housing_initiative.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bNjhJxdb0E

(housing and player-owned lands with possibility to enhance it).

As a standalone feature, it looks simply fabulous: we'll see how it integrates with the rest of the gameplay.

P.S. YOU CAN PLACE YOUR LAND/HOUSE IN THE SKY!!!  :drill: :drill: :drill:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 02, 2012, 05:30:02 PM
Housing makes this at least worth keeping an eye on!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 03, 2012, 05:31:08 PM
That's fairly interesting.  If they aren't going to instance the housing then they must have a fairly big area to put it all in.   Even with that housing in the sky thing they'd run out of room.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Modern Angel on August 03, 2012, 10:03:21 PM
I'd put dollars to donuts that they crib from Anarchy Online


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 04, 2012, 07:05:56 PM
I'd put dollars to donuts that they crib from Anarchy Online

Do you mean the instancing?  I thought AO was 100% instanced on the apartments.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kitsune on August 05, 2012, 12:42:24 AM
I think he was referencing the guild cities in AO out in the wilderness.

My only question here is what good comes from building turrets around one's flying house.  Is there any actual possibility of invasion?  House vs House combat?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 05, 2012, 02:06:02 AM
House vs House combat?

I desperately hope to one day see a game with airship housing specifically for that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Modern Angel on August 05, 2012, 11:17:04 AM
I think he was referencing the guild cities in AO out in the wilderness.

Yeah that's what I meant.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on August 17, 2012, 07:18:09 PM
There's a four-part developer walkthrough up on Gametrailers.

Part 1 (http://www.gametrailers.com/gamescom/videos/gg1pr1/gc-2012--developer-walkthrough-part-1---game-overview--cam-) - Part 2 (http://www.gametrailers.com/gamescom/videos/4qf8vb/gc-2012--developer-walkthrough-part-2---the-world--cam-) - Part 3 (http://www.gametrailers.com/gamescom/videos/ww0ts7/gc-2012--developer-walkthrough-part-3---combat-highlights--cam-) - Part 4 (http://www.gametrailers.com/gamescom/videos/otgpf6/gc-2012--developer-walkthrough-part-4---looking-ahead--cam-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 17, 2012, 08:57:43 PM
That actually looks pretty decent.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 17, 2012, 10:42:54 PM
Ya with this and gw2 it doesn't look like their stock price will stay down for long.
Though it will take some flak for the questing which looks pretty vanilla, if the npc he ran by with a ! over it's head is any indicator.




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 18, 2012, 01:45:10 AM
House vs House combat?

I desperately hope to one day see a game with airship housing specifically for that.

Go play Allods.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Amaron on August 18, 2012, 05:40:48 AM
Good find on those walkthroughs.  Seems like they are further along than I thought now.


Go play Allods.

I would if it wasn't horrendous P2W. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on February 06, 2013, 01:17:55 PM
Game is coming out this year.

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/blog/wildstar_wednesday_february_state_of_the_game.php

Here's a video introducing one of the player factions, the Exiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn8648VGMKM


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on February 06, 2013, 01:27:06 PM
This game looks pretty quirky and fun to me (though I have NO idea why they think their system of moving "get out of fire" circles on the ground is revolutionary combat), and I'll take cartoony scifi over boring fantasy mmo #639085 any day!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on February 06, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
This game looks pretty quirky and fun to me (though I have NO idea why they think their system of moving "get out of fire" circles on the ground is revolutionary combat), and I'll take cartoony scifi over boring fantasy mmo #639085 any day!

Yeah, same, I always liked their approach and enthusiasm for the project: something that aims to be, first of all, fun and with diversified activities (paths and other features like housing, which I love); not attempting to be the  "next greatest thing", a sandbox simulation or trying to promise lots of far-fetched stuff. Regarding combat, yeah, with the release of TERA and GW2, "actiony" combat is nothing new: we'll see if they can add another layer to it, or make it fun, anyway.

The central part of the "state of the game" is quite interesting:

Quote
The other critical (and frankly, often ignored) stage of MMO games is what happens once you hit the level cap – the Elder Game. Once you’re done leveling a character, there needs to be an interesting set of innovative content there for you to play, and some radical systems that incent long-term replayability. 

Honestly, it’s about the most important thing in the game, and it’s often neglected.  We can do better. You can’t rush these things in the month before launch, because when you do, it shows. Players play in different ways:

For players who like playing cooperatively:  We want epically hard raids, which reward you not only for managing to complete them – but that allow you to compete for truly epic rewards if you can prove that you are better than everyone else on the planet.

To this end, we’ve built some cool tech – it lets us change our world and modify the terrain very easily,  in some cases dynamically.  This lets us mix up our raids and dungeons on a weekly basis to provide new challenges, but it goes beyond this.

For instance, this tech lets you not just build a house, but modify the land around it in ways that truly matter.

But housing’s been done before – so what’s the next step? We’ve used this to hand you the power to band together and build a full-on battlefield (your Warplot, we call it) – so that the best in the world at PvP have a way to build, invest, and show their dominance not just through cool armor or glowy swords, but by creating truly epic persistent fortresses to take to war.

And solo players are tragically underserved in most MMOs – something like 65% of players tend to play largely solo (Massively Single-player, as it were).  So we can use that same tech to give them frequent updates of new solo story content for the cap frequently – advancing our world story and giving you more to do than daily quests or reputation grinds.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on February 06, 2013, 02:14:10 PM
This game looks pretty quirky and fun to me (though I have NO idea why they think their system of moving "get out of fire" circles on the ground is revolutionary combat), and I'll take cartoony scifi over boring fantasy mmo #639085 any day!

I played a bit of this game in 2011 at PAX Prime and the get out of fire stuff is on almost every skill.  Sleaves, swipes, attacks, whatever.  So it's not really just for special attacks.  At least it was so on the bigger mobs.

They weren' showing much and it looked like any other quest driven DIKU.  Their state of the game sounds interesting when they got to the end game stuff.  Building keeps and housing seems neet if they actually don't instance the shit out of it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on February 06, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
I had forgotten this was even supposed to exist. Is there a TLDR for what this about anywhere?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on February 06, 2013, 02:39:32 PM
Read the state of the game article, then if you want to watch videos watch the different path videos.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on February 06, 2013, 02:52:28 PM
It's just all the usual MMO dev hurf blurf.

Looks pretty though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on February 06, 2013, 03:01:52 PM
There's some more info in Massively's fairly detailed write-up (3 articles) linked from this post - http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/06/wildstar-reveals-2013-launch-window-ambitious-plans-to-make-mmo/

The tldr seems to be that it's sort of like GW2 combat, with TSW-esque aoe indicators that are Serious Business (and also used by players to signal what moves they'll be doing for combos?), player housing and COH-style 'housing pvp', and some quirky shit with the settler and explorer archetypes that goes beyond kill stuff - level up.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on February 06, 2013, 03:19:56 PM
Looks like next week we'll finally learn more about the Dominion faction: I think we can get a glimpse of one of the races during the presentation video linked above (the horned character). Also, there is still one, unrevealed Exile race. One of the articles on Massively does a good jub in summarizing some aspects of the game:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/06/the-biggest-game-on-the-planet-wildstars-boundless-ambition/

Here's a video on the dynamic combat from last september:

http://youtu.be/PgFo28scfYM


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on February 06, 2013, 03:21:08 PM
The last Exile race is clearly space zombies.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on February 08, 2013, 05:09:18 PM
The naive part of me is starting to get somewhat excited about this title.  The press blitz they did this week looks nice.

Hope someone told them that while they're trying to reinvent the wheel (again) that subscription-based games are old hat...


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on February 13, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
More stuff.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/13/everyones-a-potential-traitor-even-you-wildstars-dominion/

tl;dr
- Humans for both factions
- Two other races ("undead" Robots and lizard-like race)
- Stalker (read: Rogue) class is in


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on February 13, 2013, 09:16:53 AM
Aaaaand, I just became a Dominion gal.  Dragons, Robots, and spiffy uniforms.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on February 13, 2013, 01:41:25 PM
It's a cute little style they have going.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on February 13, 2013, 01:46:16 PM
Did I mention playable robots?  Like, what SWTOR would never let you do?  Actual.  Playable.  Customizable.  Robots?

 :drill:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on February 13, 2013, 01:49:25 PM
And new official website:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/#page1



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on February 13, 2013, 02:26:03 PM
Kind of weird to have an obviously evil moustache-twirling faction (dominion) and a sorta-neutral one (exiles). Maybe the last race will change things, but otherwise the game may suffer from the usual "kool doods go for the evil side" problem.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 13, 2013, 02:28:10 PM
The web site doesn't really seem to provide much more than fluff.  Is there any place where I can get some depth?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on February 13, 2013, 02:31:02 PM
The massively articles (from last page) are decent-ish since the writer had some hands-on experience with the game, especially this one:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/06/the-biggest-game-on-the-planet-wildstars-boundless-ambition/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 13, 2013, 02:34:21 PM
Thanks Z!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on February 13, 2013, 05:02:08 PM
Kind of weird to have an obviously evil moustache-twirling faction (dominion) and a sorta-neutral one (exiles). Maybe the last race will change things, but otherwise the game may suffer from the usual "kool doods go for the evil side" problem.


The Exiles have the cat/bunny people race. It'll even out  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Stormwaltz on February 13, 2013, 06:58:43 PM
I'm dubious about this game (for :nda: reasons), but if they're doing these faction trailers in-house, they have God's own team of character animators.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: PalmTrees on February 13, 2013, 07:41:26 PM
The trailers remind me of Ratchet and Clank. Cartoony style, broad iconic characters.  We had country girl and now aristocratic bad guy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on February 13, 2013, 08:08:20 PM
Ratchet and Clank, with a dash of Don Bluth   :drill: :heart:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on February 13, 2013, 08:35:32 PM
I'm dubious about this game (for :nda: reasons), but if they're doing these faction trailers in-house, they have God's own team of character animators.

This is NCsoft West's next important project to launch, so they probably aren't short of resources in that area right now.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on February 13, 2013, 09:07:48 PM
I played the pink rabbit psychic character back at PAX Prime 2011.  It felt really smooth and extremely well animated back then.  It looked like a simple game though, and they weren't sharing much.  It was just a WOW clone at that point.  Looks like they added a bunch of stuff.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ragnoros on February 13, 2013, 09:45:57 PM
Looks really well done. Shame it's a wow clone though. Tried GW2, SWTOR, TSW, and MoP a while ago. Turns out the Diku is dead to me. I have just played too many incarnations.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on February 14, 2013, 12:48:35 AM
Regardless of it being a WoW clone, it'll be the first AAA pulp sci-fi MMO made.  Which pretty much means, to me, it has to be played.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Riggswolfe on February 14, 2013, 09:57:13 AM
I'm watching this one closely. I have mixed feelings about the anime style graphics but the ideas are great. And housing this in-depth is something I love in my gaming. I'm a bit 'bleh' that raids are such a major part of their endgame but whatever. I think that's a mistake, especially if they go for BIG raids because the industry is moving away from that for a reason.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Reborne on February 18, 2013, 06:19:56 PM
I've just started looking at this.
I'm a sucker for MMOs, as a lot of you would probably have noticed by now.

I like the housing idea and being able to move to join your friends.
My friends have a problem in LotRO at the moment where our kinship house is in one instance and our personal houses are in others.
Would be great to be able to merge and have our own little neighborhood going.
Lets hope they don't screw it up by going with servers that mean your friends are all over the place and can't meet up.

Other fun thing that I've just seen is that unlike LotRO, the interior of houses have no slot restrictions.
Add stuff as you will.

I also like the sound of the paths.
I've got 2 friends looking at playing explorers and I'm going scientist.
I'm hoping that these things will cross over so that they can find ruins (when not jumping all over mountains) and I can research the things in there so that we can have cool things to play with.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: SurfD on February 18, 2013, 06:34:36 PM
Anyone know if this is going to be a Sub based game, or more likely to use something similar to the Freemium model of paying to unlock perks / extras that they had in COH before they shut it down?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on February 19, 2013, 08:51:42 AM
I don't think they've said, but I'm really hoping it's not a sub since I'll give it a pass then.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on February 19, 2013, 08:54:39 AM
I don't think they've said, but I'm really hoping it's not a sub since I'll give it a pass then.

+1.  I've resolved myself to living in co-existence with cash shops.  If they can pull off AAA stuff for free, more power to them.  Otherwise, they're not bumping squat off the current MMO market.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 19, 2013, 09:00:35 AM
I don't think they've said, but I'm really hoping it's not a sub since I'll give it a pass then.

I've become the complete opposite.  I can't stomach the free-to-play audience any more.  Granted, the wow crowd wasn't much better... but there's something about spending $15 a month that seems to filter a lot of idiocy. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on February 19, 2013, 09:52:44 AM
If I were them I'd blaze a new trail and start as a boxed-sale with microtrans, then once the playerbase was fairly set move to subscription.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on February 19, 2013, 10:21:21 AM
I've become the complete opposite.  I can't stomach the free-to-play audience any more.  Granted, the wow crowd wasn't much better... but there's something about spending $15 a month that seems to filter a lot of idiocy. 
Maybe immaturity.  Idiots can scrounge up $15, too.  For example, several of my friends still play WoW.

I think it's more shitty free games filter out reasonable people because they realize they aren't having fun and have better things to do with their time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on February 19, 2013, 10:29:10 AM
Nothing but elitist bullshit, Nebu.  It's a simple function of us getting older and less tolerant vs the market getting bigger more LCD.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 19, 2013, 10:32:51 AM
Nothing but elitist bullshit, Nebu.  Simple function of us getting older and less tolerant vs the market getting bigger more LCD.

I disagree.  It's easy to watch a community change in real time when games convert from subscription to F2P.  There's a certain level of community built into games when you're paying a flat fee to belong.  It's self-selecting among those willing to invest rather than those willing to show up, shit on the floor, and leave.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on February 19, 2013, 10:54:18 AM
Nebu, do you stick with any game long enough to get past the first few days of "Oooh New Game" rush to see how the communities shakes out?  Especially a free to play one where you're already biased against most of the population getting to try it out?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 19, 2013, 10:58:23 AM
Nebu, do you stick with any game long enough to get past the first few days of "Oooh New Game" rush to see how the communities shakes out?  Especially a free to play one where you're already biased against most of the population getting to try it out?

We can agree to disagree you know.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on February 19, 2013, 11:05:08 AM
Or we can stand around screaming "GET OFF MY LAWN" at the yunguns.

Honest I would love it if the age of niche MMOs dawned and we could all choose the MMO with the theme, rule sets and business model that best suits us. But the economics of just don't allow it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 19, 2013, 11:14:21 AM
Or we can stand around screaming "GET OFF MY LAWN" at the yunguns.

Honest I would love it if the age of niche MMOs dawned and we could all choose the MMO with the theme, rule sets and business model that best suits us. But the economics of just don't allow it.

I think the economics allow it just fine.  The problem is that there are too many companies chasing after the mythical "next WoW" instead of building a simpler & less expensive game that caters to a niche.  I'm hopeful that kickstarter may bring back more niche games and then we all get to be happier.  Variety benefits us all, right?




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on February 19, 2013, 11:15:53 AM
It's not so much disagreement as me trying to understand what's irking you about the people in these games.  I turn off global chats almost immediately, so I've had very few negative interactions.

But I've seen you chew through games with your hyper-efficient leveling, and I'm just wondering if maybe you're seeing a whole different segment of the populace than I do.  Ultra-achiever-world-first dickbags versus enh-whatever-I'm-easy stoners or something?  Kids versus people who take these things far more seriously?  I dunno.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 19, 2013, 11:22:56 AM
My biggest beef with F2P is that it encourages developers to focus as much, if not more on revenue streams than player retention.  While the two aren't mutually exclusive, there is a lot less emphasis on community building and more on extracting cash during periods of high churn.  I see the trade-offs and the cost benefits of being F2P, but they don't fit with the style of game that I prefer to play.  Remember that I prefer PvP games which already contain the more volatile members of the gaming community.  With F2P this already bile-filled bunch seems to get even more ridiculous in their behavior.  There's no reason for accountability since you can simply generate a new email account and start from scratch.  If F2P games were to be more rigorous about limiting the number of accounts per IP address, then I'm sure I'd find them more palatable. 

Please remember that the game I primarily play is a F2P game (World of Tanks).  I would much prefer that it were a subscription-based game for exactly the reasons above, but lacking a viable alternative, I'm stuck with it as it is.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: koro on February 19, 2013, 11:27:13 AM
The "communities are shit" phenomenon is one I've only really noticed with MMOs that start out as box+sub and then later go F2P. With the few games I've tried that were built as F2P from the ground up (and aren't MOBAs), it feels like people are at least a little more civilized, beyond the newbie areas which will always be shittowns.

I imagine in the F2P conversion scenario it's a combination of a bunch of clueless new people, a bunch of bad apples in those new people, and a bunch of already-playing vets who are bitter at such a stark reminder that "their" game failed on some level just feeds into this big boiling pot of suck.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on February 19, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
The "communities are shit" phenomenon is one I've only really noticed with MMOs that start out as box+sub and then later go F2P. With the few games I've tried that were built as F2P from the ground up (and aren't MOBAs), it feels like people are at least a little more civilized.

I imagine in the F2P conversion scenario it's a combination of a bunch of clueless new people, a bunch of bad apples in those new people, and a bunch of already-playing vets who are bitter at such a stark reminder that "their" game failed on some level just feeds into this big boiling pot of suck.

I actually think that there's a lot of truth in this.  To be fair games like LoL fail to hold my attention precisely due to the community being a bunch of assholes.  Perhaps my age does color my opinion.  I'm more irritated by the cowardice of hiding behind internet anonymity than I probably should be.   


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: koro on February 19, 2013, 11:34:06 AM
Even LoL I hear's improving in that regard, since Riot's giving actual reward incentive to be, if not nice, at least tolerant  of other players.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on February 19, 2013, 12:12:52 PM
Even LoL I hear's improving in that regard, since Riot's giving actual reward incentive to be, if not nice, at least tolerant  of other players.

I'm not sure where you heard that, but you heard wrong. LOL's community is still full of people I'd like to infect with smallpox.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Brogarn on February 19, 2013, 02:47:01 PM
Thinking back on communities I've been a part of, I don't recollect any specific attitude based on sub. AoC was chock full of douchebags while GW2 has had some of the friendliest players I've met and I've played on about 5 different servers over the past few months before settling down. WoT? Plenty of asshats thankfully limited by the chat functionality, or lack thereof at least when I played. I could probably keep going, but that would get tiresome. I'll just say I haven't seen the same delineation between sub or no sub when it comes to player attitude.


I'm not sure where you heard that, but you heard wrong. LOL's community is still full of people I'd like to infect with smallpox.

LoL is its own beast forged in the depths of community hell and shouldn't be a part of any comparison to other online communities. Also I spit a little coffee when I read the second sentence.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on February 19, 2013, 02:51:20 PM
Nebu is an old man yelling at a cloud.  :why_so_serious:



If anything, the internet is less anonymous then it's ever been, with all the facebooks and etc. People are still enormous retarded assholes though!



All communities are shit if you aren't part of them. One mans gibbering retardation is another mans hilarious in-joke and good times.




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on February 19, 2013, 04:06:20 PM
Nebu is an old man yelling at a cloud.  :why_so_serious:

TO THE CLOUD!!!!! :geezer:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: ShenMolo on February 19, 2013, 07:15:32 PM
Kill some shit
Turn in quests
Level up

wheeee


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on February 19, 2013, 07:50:15 PM
All communities are shit if you aren't part of them. One mans gibbering retardation is another mans hilarious in-joke and good times.

Great post. I don't get how you are being forced to even notice the overall community of a game these days. Get some friends and play with them or play solo. MOBA's are a cesspool because you can't avoid having your fun be dependent on others. There is no reason for MMO's to be like that. I've been playing Tera and literally give zero fucks what anyone else is doing in that game because its free and I play with the people I want to play with. Fuck the rest if I see them and I can I just kill them. If I can't kill them I just change channels.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on February 23, 2013, 05:33:02 PM
If community isn't really designed into the game to begin with than complaining about community is slightly mad methinks.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on March 14, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Nice video showing some gameplay in the Deradune zone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaCzrOWpBo

Official blog about it:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/wildstar_wednesday_a_look_into_deradune.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on March 15, 2013, 08:55:43 AM
Great art.
Great animations.
Great sound and writing.

I just hope it's more than a quest driven, level/gear grind WOW clone.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on March 15, 2013, 08:58:59 AM
I really hate "gameplay" videos without visible UI.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on March 15, 2013, 09:02:01 AM
I agree.  But their UI, last time I saw it, was pretty normal.  Nothing too exciting and what you'd expect from any other MMORPG with hotbar combat.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hawkbit on March 15, 2013, 11:01:44 AM
3 parts Barrens
1 part Zangarmarsh
dash of spaceships
sprinkle of troll screaming about the blood feast. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Segoris on March 15, 2013, 11:34:43 AM
3 parts Barrens
1 part Zangarmarsh
dash of spaceships
sprinkle of troll screaming about the blood feast. 

And a hint of Iksar


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on March 15, 2013, 11:59:11 PM
For the horde Dominion!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on March 16, 2013, 01:06:28 AM
Mods plz move thread to WOW subforum, kthxbye


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tarami on March 16, 2013, 10:16:08 AM
I'd be fine with an improved/prettier WoW. I don't hate hot bars. Yet.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Brogarn on March 20, 2013, 03:28:13 PM
The over the top narration and seemingly intentional hyperbole make this latest video great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OlC-Oq_Plsk


I expect TESO to take itself very seriously, which is great. I expect this game to be the opposite, which is also great.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on March 20, 2013, 04:56:12 PM
The more I see, the more interested I get.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on March 20, 2013, 06:56:47 PM
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/what_is_wildstar_raids.php

Talkin' 'bout raids.

Quote
The last point on this topic, is to not assume that raids will be "the endgame" as is the case in many MMOs. It is simply "an endgame." For players who don't love this sort of content, there will be many other avenues and heaps of other Elder game content that will not require a player to set a foot inside a 20- or 40-man instance. But I'm a raider at heart, so I'm really looking forward to gifting you all with the most enjoyable wipes I can manage!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on March 20, 2013, 10:46:36 PM
Where's the goddamned pre-order button?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on March 21, 2013, 04:25:19 AM
Where's the goddamned pre-order button?

Seriously.  NCSoft must have finally captured the WoW genie.  The question is if it'll be enough to topple the current 800lbs gorilla.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on March 21, 2013, 08:38:00 AM
I've been interested.  My question is if they're going with the GW2 pay model or subs.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on March 21, 2013, 08:50:26 AM
If I had to guess, I'd say Sub.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Engels on March 21, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
Uhm, am I missing something? This is just WoW. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's your thing, but I don't get the excitement.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Furiously on March 21, 2013, 11:50:36 AM
Uhm, am I missing something? This is just WoW. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's your thing, but I don't get the excitement.

But it's a new WOW!!!!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on March 21, 2013, 12:49:55 PM
"WoW in Space" is something people (including myself) have been whining for... over a decade.  Blizz didnt do World of Starcraft, so former Blizz devs make Wildstar.   Niche filled.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Engels on March 21, 2013, 01:06:52 PM
But its so transparently NOT WoW in space. Its WoW, with guns that are just magic missile, cannons that are just catapults, player housing yoinked from SWG and the requisite giant shoulder pads. Seriously, wtf people, you're meant to be smarter than this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on March 21, 2013, 01:20:30 PM
Since I love the housing in SWG, that's not a bad thing...

My playing this depends on two things:  Not having dozens of buttons and being no-sub.

Not, it's not exactly what I want, but I'm finally starting to get those games, so there's room for a distraction in there.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on March 21, 2013, 01:55:02 PM
It's not WoW in space YET.  So they start on one planet...expansions and patches could very well add space travel and other planets.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on March 21, 2013, 03:41:24 PM
I'm with Engels, any hype for this is pretty strange. The best things they are doing so far seem to be the things they aren't doing which is another fantasy game or another old IP cash grab game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on March 21, 2013, 03:47:42 PM
The only thing I'm interested in for this game is the combat.  It seems like they may be taking the GW2 approach which I really liked. Other than that, the "settlement building" with one of the paths looks really fun.

But as far as a I know it's a quest driven progression game with raids and pvp battlegrounds.  Not earth shattering, but it will be interesting to see if they iterate it well enough. I thought I heard there is a LFD at launch.  Amazing if true!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on March 21, 2013, 04:00:29 PM
Well they're saying that raiding isn't going to be the end-all/be-all of the "elder game", though how they'll get away with solo/small group stuff beyond daily quests will be quite the challenge, me thinks.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Outlawedprod on March 21, 2013, 04:51:13 PM
Best thing that probably comes out of this is WoW patches in player housing right after they launch =p


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Teleku on March 21, 2013, 05:35:56 PM
But its so transparently NOT WoW in space. Its WoW, with guns that are just magic missile, cannons that are just catapults, player housing yoinked from SWG and the requisite giant shoulder pads. Seriously, wtf people, you're meant to be smarter than this.
What do you think all of our visions of WoW in space where......


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on March 22, 2013, 05:05:21 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/22/pax-east-2013-a-first-look-at-wildstars-high-low-and-housing

dat new video about housing is  :hulk_rock: :Love_Letters: :Love_Letters: :Love_Letters: :Love_Letters: :Love_Letters:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on March 22, 2013, 05:29:14 PM
 :heart:  Just....    :heart:
Housing Video (http://www.viddler.com/v/958cac?secret=72281351)

If you're on the fence about this game, after watching that video you likely won't be.  Has to be the baddest ass housing implementation on a viable AAA MMO I've ever seen.  errr, maybe tied with SWG.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on March 22, 2013, 05:46:07 PM
:heart:  Just....    :heart:
Housing Video (http://www.viddler.com/v/958cac?secret=72281351)

If you're on the fence about this game, after watching that video you likely won't be.  Has to be the baddest ass housing implementation on a viable AAA MMO I've ever seen.  errr, maybe tied with SWG.

God damn it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on March 22, 2013, 06:16:30 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/22/pax-east-2013-a-first-look-at-wildstars-high-low-and-housing/#continued


SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

Also, the Massively article details a leveling zone IN SPACE!  So there you go.   :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on March 22, 2013, 08:51:36 PM
Played this for a bit at PAX East. Felt like a WoW clone. That's not necessarily a bad thing of course. WoW may have run it's course for me, but the fundamentals are still sound.

Played about 10 minutes, not nearly enough to get the gist. MMOs don't really shine well at limited-attention-span conventions :-) So none of the longterm stuff that's interesting about Wildstar really has a chance to come up at a show. They had a pretty sizable booth for it. Kinda like they really want to invest to make it successful or something  :headscratch:



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on March 22, 2013, 10:27:22 PM
Voice overs and acting throughout?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on March 23, 2013, 10:21:07 AM
Not that I could see. Some here and there, but it was in all that forgettable variety, like stock phrases on click but the stories told in text. I could be remembering it wrong. It was the first booth I hit simply because of where it was.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on March 23, 2013, 11:39:39 AM
I think I'm over the whole "fully-voice acted quest dramatics" thing.  SWTOR showed that in the end, it really doesn't matter, and you'll just end up ESC through the cutscenes anyways.  TSW did some fine stuff with quest intros to get you at least interested in doing the quest and maybe seeing it to it's conclusion, plus the scripted lore from characters was neat.  But if I could trade that for a better DX11 client + some better fleshed out gameplay, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on March 23, 2013, 11:46:00 AM
I think I'm over the whole "fully-voice acted quest dramatics" thing.  SWTOR showed that in the end, it really doesn't matter, and you'll just end up ESC through the cutscenes anyways.  TSW did some fine stuff with quest intros to get you at least interested in doing the quest and maybe seeing it to it's conclusion, plus the scripted lore from characters was neat.  But if I could trade that for a better DX11 client + some better fleshed out gameplay, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

What I don't understand is why nobody has combined this with the WAR style Tome of Knowledge. Instead of having actual dialogue, have the quest text be narrator based and let the player turn on, pause, rewind, whatever through the TOK. It'd be a lot cheaper to just bring in a few narrators rather than dozens of VA's.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on March 23, 2013, 12:00:01 PM

What I don't understand is why nobody has combined this with the WAR style Tome of Knowledge. Instead of having actual dialogue, have the quest text be narrator based and let the player turn on, pause, rewind, whatever through the TOK. It'd be a lot cheaper to just bring in a few narrators rather than dozens of VA's.

Isn't think pretty much what Diablo 3 did with the tomes you could find? Some also played when you killed something new.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on March 23, 2013, 12:21:42 PM
No idea.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: satael on March 23, 2013, 01:40:03 PM
Dungeons & Dragons Online has the "dungeon master" do some narration whenever you enter an instance. Some were actually pretty decent (though not the Gygax one)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on March 23, 2013, 03:14:23 PM
I finished caring about fully voiced over in MMOs during EQ2. It's because of the game play. VOs are great for RPGs because there's a fair chance it actually does add to the immersion, drawing you into listening. For MMOs, you know it's just window dressing on a "go to X and do Y" thing. Until the core moves beyond tasks, I'd rather they spend the money elsewhere and not incur the residuals to SAG or whatever.

The narative idea for a TOK works though. And yea, that's about how it was in D3 iirc.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Furiously on March 23, 2013, 06:05:57 PM
My problem vo's is it can totally turn me off from playing a character.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on March 23, 2013, 09:02:06 PM
The VO's in Defiance are pretty much all I need.  There is just a voice in my comm (with an avatar in the corner) paraphrasing what I read in the mission text or embellishing a sudden scripted event, and that's it.  Perfect.  Wing Commander style.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on March 24, 2013, 01:49:48 AM
My problem vo's is it can totally turn me off from playing a character.

Its not my player having VO I care about.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tarami on March 24, 2013, 11:27:03 AM
I don't want anything in my MMOs that will be hard and/or expensive to continually produce. Voice-over being one such thing. I want patches and expansions to feel as equal in quality to the original content as possible.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: satael on March 24, 2013, 03:59:27 PM
I don't want anything in my MMOs that will be hard and/or expensive to continually produce. Voice-over being one such thing. I want patches and expansions to feel as equal in quality to the original content as possible.

I'd like/settle for one or two good voice actors doing narration whenever appropriate (the actor really makes a difference which you can hear in audio books). Going for a full cast vo is far too costly and cumbersome for most MMOs.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kitsune on March 24, 2013, 07:46:27 PM
The problem with no VO in this instance is that they're playing themselves up to be all Ratchet and Clank-ish, and maintaining the sort of humor they're trying to associate themselves with in the trailer ads requires voice acting.  You can't have a wacky moment with dead silence in place of witty banter, it's just plain not gonna work.  They need voice actors, and good ones at that, we're talking some of the bigger names from the cartoon market, not George from accounting's brother who does a funny voice at the holiday party.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on March 25, 2013, 08:35:14 AM
Yep. Great VO and "character" game is going to suffer if its just text. Never seen an engaging Pixar film that was soundless and subtitled. If you want to see how much may be lost, watch any video put out yet and turn the sound off and captions on.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on March 25, 2013, 10:20:53 AM
WALL-E had a complete lack of any vocal dialogue for the first 22 minutes.  Just sayin'  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on March 25, 2013, 10:23:16 AM
No it didn't. He had audible noises through ought. That was part of his character, that IS his voice. This game has already presented very strong characters and voices to match as part of the package. It will be jarring if that just stops and you are reading Wow like text everywhere.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on March 25, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
I dunno, Morrowind was fairly immersive and its NPCs would throw WALLS of text at you.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: waffel on March 25, 2013, 01:59:04 PM
Have all the VOs you want, just let me click a check box in settings to disable all of it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on March 25, 2013, 02:54:27 PM
:heart:  Just....    :heart:
Housing Video (http://www.viddler.com/v/958cac?secret=72281351)

If you're on the fence about this game, after watching that video you likely won't be.  Has to be the baddest ass housing implementation on a viable AAA MMO I've ever seen.  errr, maybe tied with SWG.

Holy fat faced monkey fuck.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on March 25, 2013, 03:06:43 PM
There were some pretty awesome, evocative, and immersive COH MA missions, and the authors only had text to work with.

Also, as a MUD builder, this is the point where I tell all the voiceover people to get off my lawn.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on March 25, 2013, 03:14:55 PM
EQ2 was also my clue that voiceovers were better in practice than they worked in theory. For an MMO, they are just crazy talk. Until such times as the worlds ARE evocatively real, are something we can experience rather than quest hubs, loot bags and drones, there's no need for scripted voiceovers because it's just expensive and not worthwhile.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on March 25, 2013, 03:25:00 PM
For an MMO, they are just crazy talk. Until such times as the worlds ARE evocatively real, are something we can experience rather than quest hubs, loot bags and drones, there's no need for scripted voiceovers because it's just expensive and not worthwhile.

Anyone remember SWTOR?  How many millions were wasted on voice acting? 

Love the housing stuff.  LOVE IT!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on March 25, 2013, 03:26:24 PM
Someone shot the 40ish minute press demo from PAX East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtl_tBRPWDU

stuff about housing and some of the higher level zones


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kitsune on March 25, 2013, 04:23:59 PM
For an MMO, they are just crazy talk. Until such times as the worlds ARE evocatively real, are something we can experience rather than quest hubs, loot bags and drones, there's no need for scripted voiceovers because it's just expensive and not worthwhile.

Anyone remember SWTOR?  How many millions were wasted on voice acting? 

Love the housing stuff.  LOVE IT!

I wouldn't say it was wasted, the voice acting was great.  It's the rest of the game that they fucked up.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Stormwaltz on March 25, 2013, 05:28:15 PM
Holy fat faced monkey fuck.  :ye_gods:

I do hope they use this as a box pull-quote.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on March 25, 2013, 09:44:10 PM
SWTOR's whole voice acting idea was great and was a worthwhile investment for a triple-A take at trying to be a new major MMO

too bad about the rest of it, innit


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on March 26, 2013, 11:42:29 AM
Holy fat faced monkey fuck.  :ye_gods:

I do hope they use this as a box pull-quote.

I should have put in TM.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: SnakeCharmer on March 26, 2013, 12:11:05 PM
This actually looks really freaking fun.  Have been loosely following it for a while, but starting to get kinda giddy for it.  I get combat is pretty typical MMO, but it is 4 toolbars full of abilities MMO or more like 8-10 abilities that really shine with positioning and being smart about what you use when/where?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on March 27, 2013, 11:53:23 AM
This actually looks really freaking fun.  Have been loosely following it for a while, but starting to get kinda giddy for it.  I get combat is pretty typical MMO, but it is 4 toolbars full of abilities MMO or more like 8-10 abilities that really shine with positioning and being smart about what you use when/where?

http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/how-do-you-feel-about-limited-action-sets.1225/

Looks like limited action sets have been mentioned. I also saw footage of a guy camming the PAX demo on two different characters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veB3Qf6dvgE&sns=em


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on March 27, 2013, 12:11:55 PM
http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/how-do-you-feel-about-limited-action-sets.1225/

Looks like limited action sets have been mentioned. I also saw footage of a guy camming the PAX demo on two different characters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veB3Qf6dvgE&sns=em


That dude looked terribad at playing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on March 27, 2013, 12:17:35 PM
This actually looks really freaking fun.  Have been loosely following it for a while, but starting to get kinda giddy for it.  I get combat is pretty typical MMO, but it is 4 toolbars full of abilities MMO or more like 8-10 abilities that really shine with positioning and being smart about what you use when/where?

http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/how-do-you-feel-about-limited-action-sets.1225/

Looks like limited action sets have been mentioned. I also saw footage of a guy camming the PAX demo on two different characters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veB3Qf6dvgE&sns=em


That OP made an interesting point about in-combat meditation.  Normally you cant switch skills during combat but a (very) few games have meditation or pop-out-of-combat ability, wherein if undisturbed you can swap abilities.  I'm all for limited sets but only if they have such a meditation ability; which for me is a damned awesome feature - reminds me of a typical Mage in a tabletop game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 03, 2013, 12:44:58 PM
Post-PAX break is over.  Resume the content feed again!

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/what_is_wildstar_arenas.php

tl;dr - We're copy-pasta'ing WoW Arenas, but no more single-elimination.  Each team gets X number of respawns to burn before final defeat.  Also, Web 2.0 still lives!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on April 03, 2013, 01:06:33 PM
:heart:  Just....    :heart:
Housing Video (http://www.viddler.com/v/958cac?secret=72281351)

If you're on the fence about this game, after watching that video you likely won't be.  Has to be the baddest ass housing implementation on a viable AAA MMO I've ever seen.  errr, maybe tied with SWG.

God damn it.

Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on April 03, 2013, 07:30:34 PM
Although the video is impressive, I'm always curious about the in-game costs to set up housing. After all, CoH/V had a fantastic base system, but you needed a large and / or active guild in order to afford to buy anything past the basic block.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on April 03, 2013, 09:10:39 PM
:heart:  Just....    :heart:
Housing Video (http://www.viddler.com/v/958cac?secret=72281351)

If you're on the fence about this game, after watching that video you likely won't be.  Has to be the baddest ass housing implementation on a viable AAA MMO I've ever seen.  errr, maybe tied with SWG.

God damn it.

Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?

1. I like non-combat stuff in MMOs
2. I like having some investment in the game world beyond just my character.  I liked housing a lot in Lord of the Rings Online, and is one of the things that got me to resub several times.  Part of the actual game world is better than instanced, but oh well.
3. I like having a place to "hang out" in MMOs.  In the MMOs I played long term, I spent a lot of time just logged in talking/being social.  Social spaces encourage that and are largely absent from recent MMOs (WoW included I would say).

The bottom line is, your moment to moment gameplay (read: combat) has to be good in an MMO for me to care about it in the first place, but it is stuff like housing which keeps me really invested in one long term. 

That being said, if you are right that there is a lot of grind attached to the housing thing, then I'm not interested.  I don't mind the "grind" as much when it is something part of the persistent world (i.e I didn't mind the mundane work of helping to refuel my coporation's POSes in EVE, because it was part of something bigger). But in something like this, hopefully it is something which can come a bit more organically.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sir T on April 03, 2013, 09:25:51 PM
Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?

Housing? Furries? Some vague sci fi shit we will tell you about later? TAKE MY MONEY!!!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 03, 2013, 09:46:02 PM
Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?

No, please, go on.  Tell us how you really feel.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Stormwaltz on April 03, 2013, 10:47:36 PM
Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?

I don't play games to crush, I play them to bake bread.

I played Rift for nine months, then got tired of the basic gameplay. The housing came close to luring me back. Since I got Storm Legion free with Defiance, it's all but certain that I will eventually go back. I'd also like to point to all the people who happily threw money at UO and SWG for many, many years on the strength of Elder Game features like this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on April 04, 2013, 12:56:31 AM
Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?

I don't play games to crush, I play them to bake bread.

I played Rift for nine months, then got tired of the basic gameplay. The housing came close to luring me back. Since I got Storm Legion free with Defiance, it's all but certain that I will eventually go back. I'd also like to point to all the people who happily threw money at UO and SWG for many, many years on the strength of Elder Game features like this.

I know more than a few people in swg that all they did was decorate houses and play around in the city building features.  Non-combat activities are VERY attractive to a significant number of people, esp. women.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on April 04, 2013, 04:47:50 AM
Wow why is everyone going nuts about 3d farmville? "And let your friend take care of your garden while your away" - yuck.  the whole thing is just another variant of grind for a toy doll house. in an instance. RIFT has apparently same thing already. why there is no millions of happy customers throwing money at it?

You could say that Richard Garriott invented Farmville back in the UO days, and it proved to be a good idea at the time since everyone went crazy over decorating their houses and lookng for rare furniture. What Farmville needs is to be put (back) into a bigger game and become nothing but one of the many things you can do in a sandbox. This could be it and I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, let me try to get your point: do you dislike sandbox elements? Because lots of people love them and have been asking for it for a long time. I think it's good that one way or another, and even in what is probably going to be a traditional dikuish game, someone listened and is putting some effort into building more sandbox fluff into their MMORPG.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on April 04, 2013, 09:10:48 AM
I know more than a few people in swg that all they did was decorate houses and play around in the city building features.  Non-combat activities are VERY attractive to a significant number of people, esp. women.
I could play house and kick-ass, all in the same play session.  SWG is still at the top of my list of MMOs I loved.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on April 04, 2013, 11:35:34 AM
I know more than a few people in swg that all they did was decorate houses and play around in the city building features.  Non-combat activities are VERY attractive to a significant number of people, esp. women.
I could play house and kick-ass, all in the same play session.  SWG is still at the top of my list of MMOs I loved.

Lantyssa gets it!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on April 04, 2013, 11:38:59 AM
Although the video is impressive, I'm always curious about the in-game costs to set up housing. After all, CoH/V had a fantastic base system, but you needed a large and / or active guild in order to afford to buy anything past the basic block.

I seem to recall them mentioning in a video that you get it in a questline for free/cheap early on in your character's life.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on April 04, 2013, 11:50:52 AM
If Skyrim is any indication, I'll play house even if there's no chance someone else will see it.   And like Skyrim, this seems to add some convenience and functionality.    Before this video, I had zero interest in this game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on April 04, 2013, 12:59:01 PM
Every damn time I play skyrim I build a house...I have no idea why but I do, because.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on April 04, 2013, 01:04:04 PM
My Hearthfire house got bugged.  When I was close to "finishing" it, all of the sudden it would CTD me upon entering.  Children and priceless artifacts lost to me forever.  Well, at least the children would go outside to say hi and ask for stuff every once in a while.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on April 04, 2013, 07:53:34 PM
I could play house and kick-ass, all in the same play session.  SWG is still at the top of my list of MMOs I loved.

Wow I am really somewhat surprised so many people are really into the housing stuff. I mean I personally always considered its "neat" feature but something I wouldnt personally want to do because of grind/time involved for basically cosmetics. 

But then  its strange that there is relatively little attention/hype to the newly upcoming Korean mmo's such as an Archeage or Black Desert. They really have the housing/farming features on the next level


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 04, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
I know more than a few people in swg that all they did was decorate houses and play around in the city building features.  Non-combat activities are VERY attractive to a significant number of people, esp. women.
I could play house and kick-ass, all in the same play session.  SWG is still at the top of my list of MMOs I loved.
Me too. I was one of those work-for-hire home decorators. I also was in a band for a brief time.

There's nothing wrong with Farmville. In fact, the sequel has a better crafting UI than any MMO I've played. Which isn't saying much because they're all one-dimensional copy/pastes of eachother. What makes it better is simply that you can start with the end combine and work backwards through all the sub-component combines, and it remembers as you backtrack back up through the final combine.

From the mouth of babes.

Farming and planting and harvesting is cathartic. It's also not time-sucky. In fact, Carbine should launch that system as a Facebook game so people could do that shit during the times they usually do it: at work. Throw some ads and MySuperRewards at it and they can drop even needing MTX :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on April 04, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I still want an mmo with untamed wilds where I can tame the fuck out of those wilds and build a road, and set up a tavern, and, and, display my pretties!  Sure some fuck will build Penishouse next door but oh well.  I'll just have to level up my arsonist skill.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on April 04, 2013, 09:08:05 PM
I still want an mmo with untamed wilds where I can tame the fuck out of those wilds and build a road, and set up a tavern, and, and, display my pretties!  Sure some fuck will build Penishouse next door but oh well.  I'll just have to level up my arsonist skill.

Yeah, this would be nice.  Ultimately I don't know how it can be done with public servers though.  If you could imagine a really large game world with a much smaller player base per server where by there would enough space for their to be "wilds" you could really get something going.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Stormwaltz on April 04, 2013, 09:14:48 PM
I still want an mmo with untamed wilds where I can tame the fuck out of those wilds and build a road, and set up a tavern, and, and, display my pretties!

Pathfinder Online?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 04, 2013, 09:38:42 PM
I thought ArcheAge was offering that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on April 04, 2013, 09:42:00 PM
I still want an mmo with untamed wilds where I can tame the fuck out of those wilds and build a road, and set up a tavern, and, and, display my pretties!  Sure some fuck will build Penishouse next door but oh well.  I'll just have to level up my arsonist skill.

Yeah, this would be nice.  Ultimately I don't know how it can be done with public servers though.  If you could imagine a really large game world with a much smaller player base per server where by there would enough space for their to be "wilds" you could really get something going.

One day there will be an MMO where the world is generated kinda like Minecraft is, including monsters with their own pseudo society and growth.  All the players start at one spot and then spread out. 

I haven't read anything on the Pathfinder game, didn't even know one was int he works.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on April 05, 2013, 04:47:00 AM
In fact, Carbine should launch that system as a Facebook game so people could do that shit during the times they usually do it: at work. Throw some ads and MySuperRewards at it and they can drop even needing MTX :awesome_for_real:

See, to me it's the other way around. Wordly MMORPGs need side activities badly, and that's why Farmville inside an MMO is a great idea. While I find the experience without a world around it quite dull (I know I am the minority). I've been pushing to have a tiny Football Manager-like game embedded in a MMORPG for a while now and thought SWTOR was the perfect environment with the Huttaball stuff fitting the lore. And I definitely think that's the way to go. Sandboxes can and should host as many activities as possible, and honestly, really, who ever dislilked housing in any game? At worst, you ignore it. At best, you love it and becomes one of your favourite aspects of the game. Yes, I spent hours and hours decorating my SWG house too.

Also, about Korean games, people are suspicious here about them due to a 'grindy' label that will take a while to go away, and they don't get much press space or flashy youtube videos like the Wildstar one, but should they launch in a playable state you can be assured that the amazing sandbox elements of Archeage and Black Desert (seriously, how many have even heard about Black Desert?) won't be ignored.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 05, 2013, 01:46:58 PM
We got crafting, yes we do.  We use Circuit Board Crafting, how about you? (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/econ_devblog_circuit_board_crafting.php)   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Stormwaltz on April 05, 2013, 02:44:12 PM
We use Circuit Board Crafting, how about you? (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/econ_devblog_circuit_board_crafting.php)   :awesome_for_real:

"By Loic "Atreid" Claveau... My name is Primus (Gortok on the forums)"

 :uhrr:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on April 05, 2013, 03:25:57 PM
Seems like a streamlined graphical version of Tabula Rasa's original crafting system, with "power" (amount) separated from actual ability.  I like it.  You can essentially make anything (and everything will have a schematic), but certain components will randomize to prevent minmax copycatting.

This pushes my buttons.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on April 05, 2013, 03:34:06 PM
We use Circuit Board Crafting, how about you? (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/econ_devblog_circuit_board_crafting.php)   :awesome_for_real:

"By Loic "Atreid" Claveau... My name is Primus (Gortok on the forums)"

 :uhrr:

It turns out Wildstar's entire Dev team is one guy with Dissociative Personality Disorder.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on April 12, 2013, 12:52:33 PM
Very interesting post from the devs at Carbine about item design and how they are looking for help to create a new item slot.  Really worth the read if you are interested in the game.

http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/wsc-exclusive-design-an-item-slot.2287/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 12, 2013, 01:03:12 PM
Also, here's something about the details of their server architecture.

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/lets_talk_about_servers.php

Funny, I thought MS SQL was frowned upon these days?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on April 12, 2013, 07:11:14 PM
Also, here's something about the details of their server architecture.

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/lets_talk_about_servers.php

Funny, I thought MS SQL was frowned upon these days?

Yes, everyone tends to frown on it.


Then they go and use oracle.  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 12, 2013, 07:13:12 PM
Oooh ooh, can we talk about SWG and Oracle issues again???  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on April 13, 2013, 08:55:50 AM
No.  Bad Darniaq.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mattemeo on April 15, 2013, 06:54:02 AM
Watching this develop has been the polar opposite experience to watching TESO develop. Wildstar genuinely feels like it could be a real breath of fresh air despite the fact that mechanically it really isn't anything new. It just seems to be being made by a dev team with their heads screwed on and possessing a wicked, irreverent sense of humour that is otherwise totally absent in the MMO market - and one that isn't wholly reliant on pop-culture references like WoW, which has become the Shrek of MMOs - massively popular and badly dated. Carbine, on the other hand, just seem to keep adding in everything I could ask for.

I've honestly yet to see or read anything about Wildstar that annoys me or sets off alarm bells. The only issue I really have with it is the publisher. I don't feel like I can ever trust NCSoft, certainly not post-CoH demise. They'll likely shit-can Wildstar in two years if it doesn't get a decent Korean playerbase, and fuck everyone else.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on April 15, 2013, 08:19:04 AM
I imagine the answer is a resounding yes, but has a non-Asian developed MMO ever actually intentionally shit their game up with increased grind/etc for an Asian release? For some reason the idea makes me laugh.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Yoru on April 15, 2013, 08:59:20 AM
Also, here's something about the details of their server architecture.

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/lets_talk_about_servers.php

Funny, I thought MS SQL was frowned upon these days?

Yes, everyone tends to frown on it.


Then they go and use oracle.  :grin:

The whole thing reads like a pretty standard rundown of an MMO server stack. You'll see similar things on Patrick Wyatt's blog (http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/) if you follow it. Given how heavily instanced Wildstar seems to be, their setup seems like the most logical implementation.

I'll give you a 99% chance that their unmentioned "chat daemon" is either an off-the-shelf chat technology or an implementation of an open standard - they're probably setting up some reveal like "and you can chat with your buddies from your phone!" That kind of multidevice interoperability has been trendy to plan and talk about for the past couple of years, and there's a few successful implementations out there.

MSSQL is more or less industry standard as well. You won't get amazing performance like you would with a hand-optimized version of Postgres or MySQL, but you also won't have to hire an entire team to build and maintain said custom version. Instead you can hire in some local contractors whenever needed, and you can have a support contract with Microsoft to quickly resolve smaller issues.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 15, 2013, 12:27:31 PM
Closed non-family/friends beta is underway, and they even took the extra step of binding the invite to a person's email addy, so no giving away codes.

That said, the smell of fresh cake is in the air again  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on April 15, 2013, 07:46:10 PM
In response to leaked patch notes showing up on beta leaking sites, the M30 patch notes were posted (the build that is on the beta server).

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/m30_patch_notes.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 15, 2013, 08:21:48 PM
Watching this develop has been the polar opposite experience to watching TESO develop. Wildstar genuinely feels like it could be a real breath of fresh air despite the fact that mechanically it really isn't anything new.

Yea, the vibe I'm getting is like GW2: I wasn't impressed when I first saw it (for reasons largely similar to my Pax East demo of Wildstar), but once I got into the beta, I was hooked. Wildstar may have that right combination of quick action, minimized suck, fun quirkiness that doesn't take itself too seriously, and launching at a time when nothing else is going on.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on April 15, 2013, 08:53:09 PM
Somehow a team aiming for "fun" makes a world of difference.  I think we've gone too long without anyone understanding that it's the opposite of sucking.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on April 18, 2013, 03:14:46 AM
First, official beta report:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/black_ops_missive_from_the_field.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on April 18, 2013, 12:29:37 PM
I need a beta invite like Gollum needs his damn ring.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 18, 2013, 12:55:18 PM
I need a beta invite like Gollum needs his damn ring.

x2


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on April 18, 2013, 02:41:16 PM
I'm honestly kindof warming up to this project. That, I believe, would make it the first MMO project I've warmed up to in years. It isn't even the fact that this looks to be 'WOW done better'. I don't even care about 'WOW done better'. I'm not even actually interested in playing this game. It's just that most mmo's are either blatant also-ran cash grabs or some neckbeardy vision quest. This is the first time in years we've had an MMO coming out that was developed by a team who's primary goal seemed to just be 'make the game fun'.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on April 18, 2013, 07:45:33 PM
They've said basically nothing about the payment model, right?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on April 18, 2013, 08:28:03 PM
Correct. I would bet sub. Put a side bet of not 15/mo.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 18, 2013, 10:19:52 PM
I very much doubt subs. Nothing about Wildstars implies the kind of faith needed to make subs a viable business, especially when so many have switched to f2p, including the swan song of big budget AAA subs games.

Err, ok, rant aside, my guess is box and MTX :-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 19, 2013, 12:05:27 AM
fuck why did I watch the housing video fuuuuuuuuuck


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sir T on April 19, 2013, 05:33:45 AM
Because we knew your Sims playing soul would be ours if you did...

(http://www.1800pocketpc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/evil-laugh.png)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on April 19, 2013, 07:59:50 AM
Nothing about Wildstars implies the kind of faith needed to make subs a viable business

I think everything that they have shown says they have faith in subscriptions. Conversely they have shown nothing that supports a cash shop.

I would prefer B2P though with a cash shop. I don't mind spending cash to level faster.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on April 19, 2013, 01:59:39 PM
I'm not sure I've ever seen a game promise as much in their trailer as this one did. Seems awfully ambitious.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on April 19, 2013, 03:07:59 PM
Sooo, what do they mean by action combat?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on April 19, 2013, 03:13:29 PM
Looks like it has dodging from the video.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on April 19, 2013, 03:13:48 PM
Sooo, what do they mean by action combat?

It's like combat, but full of action!  :why_so_serious:

I think it means there is an active portion to combat rather than tab target - attack - next target. Probably dodging and position stuff. Now I am going to have to look harder at this game. Damn it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 19, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
There's videos out there that explain it a bit.  They're essentially doing what GW2 does in that you can just fire off your skills and your shots will hit everything in the ability's cone/blast/radial/etc.  The big thing is that they're attaching training wheels to the mechanic by having said cones/blast/radial fields CLEARLY FUCKING VISIBLE, for both friend and foe.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on April 19, 2013, 03:34:46 PM
training wheels

 :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 19, 2013, 03:36:03 PM
I'm open to suggestions on an alternative phrasing  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on April 19, 2013, 03:39:37 PM
I'm open to suggestions on an alternative phrasing  :grin:

Common sense?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Xuri on April 19, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
There's videos out there that explain it a bit.  They're essentially doing what GW2 does in that you can just fire off your skills and your shots will hit everything in the ability's cone/blast/radial/etc.  The big thing is that they're attaching training wheels to the mechanic by having said cones/blast/radial fields CLEARLY FUCKING VISIBLE, for both friend and foe.
TSW does this for area-based monster-abilities as well - though not for player ones.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 19, 2013, 09:31:37 PM
There's videos out there that explain it a bit.  They're essentially doing what GW2 does in that you can just fire off your skills and your shots will hit everything in the ability's cone/blast/radial/etc.  The big thing is that they're attaching training wheels to the mechanic by having said cones/blast/radial fields CLEARLY FUCKING VISIBLE, for both friend and foe.
TSW does this for area-based monster-abilities as well - though not for player ones.
Yeah, but even those can get diluted and somewhat unrecognizable at times, esp. in the elder game.  Wildstar so far seems to be deliberately trying to make all actions recognizable, and thus giving everyone a pretty fair chance and opportunity to respond/react.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on April 19, 2013, 09:39:43 PM
That's sounds fantastic.  Better than the boss in TSW that's nearly impossible for me due to red/green colorblindness.  Bunch of red circles in hell: not something I can see.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 19, 2013, 10:21:47 PM
Because we knew your Sims playing soul would be ours if you did...

Bastards!  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on April 22, 2013, 01:21:58 PM
That's sounds fantastic.  Better than the boss in TSW that's nearly impossible for me due to red/green colorblindness.  Bunch of red circles in hell: not something I can see.

Wildstar is fully moddable so I would imagine there will be a mod out there to make the telegraph system based not on color but pattern overlays or something.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on April 22, 2013, 01:47:19 PM
Certain colors work.  Bright blues and yellows are great, and I love it when companies use those.   I think that's the default switch (or purple/yellow) in games that have a colorblind switch.  I think if you have red/green and blue/yellow colorblindness, then you're pretty boned in games in regards to standing in fire.   The pattern thing world work then.  Maybe a bunch of pink skulls on the ground.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: kildorn on April 22, 2013, 02:28:06 PM
I think patterns require a bit more time to fully grasp if it's good or bad. GW2 has some wonky border thing that takes entirely too long to process mentally compared to "red or white circle" version.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on April 22, 2013, 02:36:37 PM
I don't feel like I can ever trust NCSoft, certainly not post-CoH demise. They'll likely shit-can Wildstar in two years if it doesn't get a decent Korean playerbase, and fuck everyone else.
Yes because they definately fucked over everyone with guild wars 2.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on April 22, 2013, 02:40:30 PM
I don't feel like I can ever trust NCSoft, certainly not post-CoH demise. They'll likely shit-can Wildstar in two years if it doesn't get a decent Korean playerbase, and fuck everyone else.
Yes because they definately fucked over everyone with guild wars 2.


I can't tell if sarcasm or not.

Isn't NCSoft just the publisher?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 22, 2013, 03:29:42 PM
It depends on how deep the oversight is.  Certainly there's a difference between how Bliz manages WoW, even though Activision has the reigns, and how Bioware manages SWTOR, even though EA is, well, EA.   :why_so_serious:

Carbine is attributed as NCSoft's southern California studios.  They have no other titles under their name, but the titles that the devs have worked on before are a smorgasbord of everything from the past decade.  And that work is being clearly mirrored in the gameplay seen so far.  How big of a dick NCSoft is in it's oversight of Carbine though has yet to been seen.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mattemeo on April 22, 2013, 05:07:19 PM
Yes because they definately fucked over everyone with guild wars 2.

...Which is doing well in Korea and the influence on the art and character models in the game is a blatantly obvious attempt to maximise that appeal.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on April 22, 2013, 05:09:25 PM
Certain colors work.  Bright blues and yellows are great, and I love it when companies use those.   I think that's the default switch (or purple/yellow) in games that have a colorblind switch.  I think if you have red/green and blue/yellow colorblindness, then you're pretty boned in games in regards to standing in fire.   The pattern thing world work then.  Maybe a bunch of pink skulls on the ground.  :awesome_for_real:

Those blue/yellow people are rare freaks though.  :grin: Red/green should be taken into account in every game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 22, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
Just learn to see red and green, you newb.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on April 22, 2013, 06:04:12 PM
Just learn to see red and green, you newb.

(http://cdn3.standard.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/max_800/2010/05/20/story-go-red-green-29310.jpg)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on April 22, 2013, 06:09:24 PM
Why is there a silhouette of a fly fisher posted?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 22, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
ZAM interview on Wildstar's graphic engine, "Engine"

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=32245

Quote
When building an MMO, what comes first – the client or the server?

In my opinion, it better be both. But in our case we had a simple terrain and model renderer first (about a month or two into development); a couple months later we had a basic server that let us run around and see each other (needless to say this was when we received our first cheater). We then started layering in all of our complexities. At Carbine features are always added to both the client and the servers at the same time, usually by the same programmer. Fun fact: we still maintain our standalone server-less Client; our artists use it to preview their art without having to connect to a server.

Quote
How do you balance what to perform server-side versus client-side?

The general rule at Carbine is that we treat your client as a dumb terminal that is trying to send us malicious data at all times. That means that basically everything has to pass through the server for validation at some point.

At the same time, we have to assume you have tons of latency. I’d really love it if the world had a network infrastructure that could guarantee <10ms pings from any two points on the globe, but thanks to the laws of physics that’s just not gonna happen. We generally assume your client has at least 300ms of lag at all times. This means we have to simulate many things on your client while it is in transit to the server. Sometimes this might mean you play a pre-cast animation for a spell, only to get the message “Invalid Target” because your target is already dead. We’ve found it’s hardly noticeable vs. hitting the attack key a fraction of a second later, but I guess the end user will be the final judge of how well we hide the lag.

Lots of other bits of dev-speak in the article too.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on April 22, 2013, 06:51:45 PM
Why is there a silhouette of a fly fisher posted?

It's from an old Canadian TV show called The Red Green Show. 

Red Green clips. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8xOXYAE0w)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on April 22, 2013, 08:25:33 PM
I don't feel like I can ever trust NCSoft, certainly not post-CoH demise. They'll likely shit-can Wildstar in two years if it doesn't get a decent Korean playerbase, and fuck everyone else.
Yes because they definately fucked over everyone with guild wars 2.


I can't tell if sarcasm or not.

Isn't NCSoft just the publisher?

To my knowledge Carbine is 100% owned by NCsoft, as was Paragon Studios and ArenaNet is. So NCsoft gets to allocate resources as it sees fit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on April 22, 2013, 08:37:30 PM
Why is there a silhouette of a fly fisher posted?

It's from an old Canadian TV show called The Red Green Show.  

Red Green clips. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8xOXYAE0w)


That hat he's wearing is the one we got issued to wear in the field up until around 2000.  I'm glad the army went with the tilley hat version we have now.  That old one looked stupid as hell and I hated wearing it. :uhrr:

And remember, if women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 22, 2013, 09:14:46 PM
ZAM interview on Wildstar's graphic engine, "Engine"

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=32245

I really like the way these guys present themselves. Seems like the charm of the game really does derive from the people building it, rather than some faux affectation.

Or their media training group is just that freakin' good  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on April 22, 2013, 09:27:01 PM
Why do I continually click these links?!? Jeezus Christ now this is on my radar.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on April 23, 2013, 10:10:36 AM
Why is there a silhouette of a fly fisher posted?

It's from an old Canadian TV show called The Red Green Show. 
That was a red-green colorblind joke.  'Cause they wouldn't be able to see Red Green...


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 24, 2013, 02:42:43 PM
PvP Article

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=32258

Tidbits:
- Jen Gordy, who started at the bottom at Mythic with DAoC, worked her way up, crossed over to LotRO, helped wrangle Monster Play and various systems, is heading up PvP for Wildstar
- PvP is taking a back seat to PvE, with the exception of Arenas and Warplots/Battlegrounds.  Arenas will be a focus in order to analyze class X vs. class Y stuff on the small scale in order to better implement stuff/changes on the larger.
- Web 2.0 is still a thing
- Two unique PvP stats.  One for amplifying damage, and the other to mitigate.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 24, 2013, 03:14:11 PM
Fucking PvP stats. I think that is a concept I would really prefer die forever.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on April 24, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
Or gear-based PVP in DIKUs, period. Then again, Rift tried removing that and the players cried bloody murder (progression! shineys! getting beaten up for weeks so that I can get epix and start beating up on scrubs myself!). Oh well.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 24, 2013, 03:20:54 PM
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I prefer an even(ish) playing field for sure, but I have mostly made peace with the concept that most players are derps and want a gear progression in PvP (mostly so they can stomp newbs). But PvP-specific stats get right up my nose still, even though the reasoning behind it is nearly the same ("I don't want some scrub taking some different progression path gear-wise to escape their righteous stomping!").


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on April 24, 2013, 03:40:00 PM
Wot? PvP stats allow exactly that. You can make gear that is mediocre in pve be the best or close to it pvp gear in the game and you can award it for pvp'ing or make it free for everyone to access.

PvP stats could be a simple tool to remove gear-based PvP but no game ever seems to implement things that way.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on April 24, 2013, 03:41:40 PM
I loathe all manner of gear progression (PvP and PvE).  I don't want to whack a mole to get a pair of pants that will help me whack a bigger mole.  Give me a robust crafting system, access to vanity items, and more skill choices please.  


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on April 24, 2013, 05:00:30 PM
more power to whoever will PvP in battleground/arenas. For me, the only remotely interesting PvP in any MMO is the world one, with random organized expeditions to the other faction territories or random PvP encounters while you travel in a contested area.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on April 24, 2013, 05:09:10 PM
. For me, the only remotely interesting PvP in any MMO is the world one, with random organized expeditions to the other faction territories or random PvP encounters while you travel in a contested area.

No one's saying they're not going to have the world one.  They're just not going to go out of their way pre-launch to make it the next best thing since sliced bread. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 24, 2013, 05:27:51 PM
Wot? PvP stats allow exactly that. You can make gear that is mediocre in pve be the best or close to it pvp gear in the game and you can award it for pvp'ing or make it free for everyone to access.

PvP stats could be a simple tool to remove gear-based PvP but no game ever seems to implement things that way.

That is never how PvP stats work though. It's just a way to artificially sort people through gear. God forbid someone gear up running dungeons, get bored with that, and switch to PvP and not have to build a second suit! Or someone PvP a bunch and be able to use that gear they've earned in PvE! And the world would fucking end if the geared people can't smear the new people across the battlefield and tell themselves they're simply more "skilled."

And they never, ever, ever hand out PvP-stated gear for free. If they do (like in SWTOR), it's behind the "real" PvP gear and only makes you a slightly bigger speed bump.

I'm okay with a rough baseline that everyone should be at to have a fighting chance, but I am sick of gear progression and pointless, false gear divides fucking up PvP.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on April 24, 2013, 06:03:21 PM
Wot? PvP stats allow exactly that. You can make gear that is mediocre in pve be the best or close to it pvp gear in the game and you can award it for pvp'ing or make it free for everyone to access.

PvP stats could be a simple tool to remove gear-based PvP but no game ever seems to implement things that way.

That is never how PvP stats work though. It's just a way to artificially sort people through gear. God forbid someone gear up running dungeons, get bored with that, and switch to PvP and not have to build a second suit! Or someone PvP a bunch and be able to use that gear they've earned in PvE! And the world would fucking end if the geared people can't smear the new people across the battlefield and tell themselves they're simply more "skilled."

And they never, ever, ever hand out PvP-stated gear for free. If they do (like in SWTOR), it's behind the "real" PvP gear and only makes you a slightly bigger speed bump.

I'm okay with a rough baseline that everyone should be at to have a fighting chance, but I am sick of gear progression and pointless, false gear divides fucking up PvP.
Ya it's too bad swtor doesn't have the balls to bolster everyone up past the best gear you can get and leave it like that. Too even a playing field for the hard core though I suppose.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on April 24, 2013, 06:13:48 PM

Ya it's too bad swtor doesn't have the balls to bolster everyone up past the best gear you can get and leave it like that. Too even a playing field for the hard core though I suppose.


It's really odd to me to be honest, the hardcore PvPers in any other genre loathe imbalances in stuff like this.  Is it just that the (hardcore) RPG PvP crowd basically consists of the people who couldn't hack it in the other competitive PvP games and use their ability to sink more time to dominate in a gear focused game?  That sounds really condescending, but it really seems that way sometimes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on April 24, 2013, 06:16:12 PM
It could be that most of the hardcore PVPers in MMOG's are complete and utter cunts.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DayDream on April 24, 2013, 06:27:49 PM
I think part of the driver for PvP gear is that a lot of people, based purely on skill, are forever doomed to be fodder.  When i look at most any pub FPS, the top ~20% of the scoreboard usually has like 50% of the kills.  The next 15% usually has about a 1:1 KD ratio, and then it's quickly down hill from there.  That's in a game where roughly equal "gear" is assumed.

So, I think PvP gear can counteract that somewhat, though VERY unintuitively.  Joe Scrublord might never understand what all of his buttons do, but if he puts in the time and gets enough PvP gear, he can brute force his way through an ungeared opponent.  Jill U. Raidqueen is always gunna shit on the scrubs, and PvP gear is only gunna change how long she has to heal afterward.  At least, i think that's the goal.  

Essentially, PvP gear stratifies players skill more.  It does so by allowing players to leverage time invested vs player skill.  Hopefully, it does so in the middle to bottom end of the spectrum, without pushing the top end too far out.  Though, that may be wishful thinking.  Personally, i dislike the idea of any sort of gear progression in PvP games in general, and I think it ends up with generally unhealthy stratification.  That earlier 15% with the 1:1 KD ratio, they get to go apeshit.


Just for kicks, I think if you had some class design to support the above idea, PvP gear with built in tradeoffs might actually be healthy for a game.  Say some of your abilities are more useful in the hands of a higher skilled player, and generally useless for scrubs, then PvP gear could lessen the power of the high skill ability in return for buffing other stuff.  Great players might end up using a couple pieces of PvP gear mixed in with the rest, while poor players might pile on the PvP gear.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on April 24, 2013, 06:36:45 PM
No, it's not meant for any of that. It's just a grindy carrot to theoretically keep people along.


Any idea of pvp gear somehow balancing out the skill levels falls apart once you realize the top players in terms of actual player skill will also end up with the top end gear and it only widens the gap in the end.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on April 24, 2013, 07:04:51 PM

It's really odd to me to be honest, the hardcore PvPers in any other genre loathe imbalances in stuff like this.  Is it just that the (hardcore) RPG PvP crowd basically consists of the people who couldn't hack it in the other competitive PvP games and use their ability to sink more time to dominate in a gear focused game?  That sounds really condescending, but it really seems that way sometimes.

Pvpers in diku themparks and not "hardcore". I would even venture to say they not pvpers at all - they are pve'rs grinding another kind of gear progression. The only legit pvp in any MMO is WoW arena, and the main reason for it is the sheer amount of people in competitive rank based ladder.  The ladder is why people are there not the "ubermathafuck11thseason gladiator" gear

And a lot of people migrated away to f2p games with ladders. Like  LoL. The warfare based pvp guilds are playing GW2 www and/or waiting for archeage etc. No pvpers plays themepark diku MMOs as "pvp game"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on April 24, 2013, 08:02:41 PM
The only legit pvp in any MMO is WoW arena, and the main reason for it is the sheer amount of people in competitive rank based ladder.

Someone never played Puzzle Pirates!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 24, 2013, 08:21:19 PM
Pvpers in diku themparks and not "hardcore". I would even venture to say they not pvpers at all - they are pve'rs grinding another kind of gear progression. The only legit pvp in any MMO is WoW arena, and the main reason for it is the sheer amount of people in competitive rank based ladder.  

I'm no dedicated MMO PvPer. I find it fun, but feel true PvP is just a byproduct of an open world where PvP can happen because people are around, not the reason the people are there.

Grinds are accepted by certain (many) MMO players has an acceptable way to efficiently level/gear up. WoW Arena and BGs (like many PvP themeparks) just provide a structure in which you're grinding in competitive matches instead of PvE ones.

So what's the difference between WoW Arena and WoW BG with regards to grinding progression?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on April 24, 2013, 09:04:07 PM
more power to whoever will PvP in battleground/arenas. For me, the only remotely interesting PvP in any MMO is the world one, with random organized expeditions to the other faction territories or random PvP encounters while you travel in a contested area.

Cept now "world pvp" means "here is your world pvp specific zone, have at it".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on April 26, 2013, 09:00:08 AM
I'm no dedicated MMO PvPer. I find it fun, but feel true PvP is just a byproduct of an open world where PvP can happen because people are around, not the reason the people are there.

Grinds are accepted by certain (many) MMO players has an acceptable way to efficiently level/gear up. WoW Arena and BGs (like many PvP themeparks) just provide a structure in which you're grinding in competitive matches instead of PvE ones.

So what's the difference between WoW Arena and WoW BG with regards to grinding progression?


If you mean what makes Arena pvp and BG grinds? - arena has rating and publicly visible ladders . This is the  main reason people keep playing it once they get trough novelty stage. WoW being most  popular MMO on the market makes for tons of epeen  if your rank is relatively high.  In arenas people play to win against similarly minded competition -the quintessential thing for pvp, not for purple gear or tokens.  GW2 was supposed to take over this market (or at least take a large share of it) but arena.net royally screwed the pooh there

DIKU themeparks keep throwing instanced BGs in their kitchen sink just for check mark ,  no one interested in them either. Wildstar will be no exception even if they do have ladders and arenas. Unless somehow it becomes magically more popular than wow (yeahhhh righhhht)





Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on April 26, 2013, 09:42:27 AM
I loathe all manner of gear progression (PvP and PvE).  I don't want to whack a mole to get a pair of pants that will help me whack a bigger mole.  Give me a robust crafting system, access to vanity items, and more skill choices please.  

Sensible.  So you prefer whack-a-mole, to ding a mat, to sew some pants?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on April 26, 2013, 12:30:02 PM
Sensible.  So you prefer whack-a-mole, to ding a mat, to sew some pants?

You're hilarious.   :thumbs_up:
 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on April 26, 2013, 01:12:45 PM
It could be that most of the hardcore PVPers in MMOG's are lying cunts who have no clue what they want.
FTFY



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on April 26, 2013, 01:49:48 PM
Check out the free weekend Steam offering Forge btw. Looks like an interesting blend between MMO pvp and a shooter.
I especially like the wall jumping.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on April 26, 2013, 02:21:54 PM
If you mean what makes Arena pvp and BG grinds? - arena has rating and publicly visible ladders . This is the  main reason people keep playing it once they get trough novelty stage.

Ah ok that makes sense. And yea, very different than BG grind.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on April 27, 2013, 03:57:09 PM
Check out the free weekend Steam offering Forge btw. Looks like an interesting blend between MMO pvp and a shooter.
I especially like the wall jumping.

Someone can message me on Steam for a free copy of this game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on May 08, 2013, 03:12:39 PM
First beta stress test is coming up. 

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/wildstar_wednesday_beta_stress_test.php

*crosses fingers*


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on May 08, 2013, 03:20:04 PM
*crosses toes*


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on May 08, 2013, 03:54:15 PM
Quote
Editor's Note: Originally this article stated that we were hosting a stress test this weekend. This is not the case, and we apologize for the inconvenience. We will keep you updated on the exact timing of our stress test in the coming days, and apologize for any confusion.

*uncrosses toes*


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 08, 2013, 05:05:08 PM
So how do you unknot a penis?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 08, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
So how do you unknot a penis?

Ask a prostitute.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on May 08, 2013, 08:05:16 PM
One very important point about this stress test:

Quote
Everyone that gets an invite into the Stress Test and makes a good faith attempt to log into the game during the test will be guaranteed an invite into a future (much more stable) Closed Beta test as a thank you. I need your help in breaking the server, and we want to invite you back to play when I’m not trying to do mean things to the hardware. So help us break everything as many times as possible this weekend, and we'll make it up to you with a real beta invite in the future.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on May 09, 2013, 01:41:17 PM
Next 'DevSpeak' video is out, focusing on Movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qo5nrkYYI0


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 09, 2013, 02:19:10 PM
Next 'DevSpeak' video is out, focusing on Movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qo5nrkYYI0

Wait, ...if the mob knocks the weapon out of your hand? And you have to go pick it up?  :drill:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on May 09, 2013, 02:46:52 PM
So how do you unknot a penis?
Scissors or a knife.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on May 09, 2013, 03:03:47 PM
I absolutely love the sense of fun these guys have with their videos. That bodes very well for the game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mattemeo on May 09, 2013, 06:58:59 PM
I'm enjoying SWTOR again and GW2 isn't going anywhere soon, but of all the MMOs currently running or coming soon, this is pretty much the only one I give a shit about. The humour, both in-game and in-house has a massive part to play in that. They have a slightly self-depricating wit I really get on with, like they know that what they're doing is frivolous and unimportant but they just hope you're going to have some fun with it, even down to the bog-standard nuts and bolts.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on May 10, 2013, 12:46:05 AM
Word.

This is the only upcoming mmo that's still on my radar, basically... even if it doesn't turn the mmo scene upside down, at least it'll be decent fun for a while.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on May 10, 2013, 05:29:12 PM
I wish it had wall running and air dashing also, playing age of wushu has spoiled me with their movement powers.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on May 11, 2013, 08:13:28 AM
Word.

This is the only upcoming mmo that's still on my radar, basically... even if it doesn't turn the mmo scene upside down, at least it'll be decent fun for a while.

Yeah right another wow clone gonna "turn mmo scene upside down" . 3 monther tops.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on May 11, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
Word.

This is the only upcoming mmo that's still on my radar, basically... even if it doesn't turn the mmo scene upside down, at least it'll be decent fun for a while.

Yeah right another wow clone gonna "turn mmo scene upside down" . 3 monther tops.

See this is the difference between someone whose played a lot of mmo's and someone who hasn't. Yes at face value it's more of a wow clone than anything else out there but that's not a bad thing, almost all recent mmo's copy bits and pieces of wow like exclamation points or quest based leveling but the one thing this game seems to have copied that most don't? wait for it....


wait for it....

Fun! Not fun as in fun to play but genuinely looks like a work the devs are having fun making and will be proud of, its got real motivation to it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Modern Angel on May 11, 2013, 02:16:24 PM
Also, why is "3 monther" a pejorative? So what if it is? I have a game I play longer than three months already: it's called real life. Well, and Football Manager 2012. And Blood Bowl.

But who cares? It's okay to play a game for three months and have enough. It's probably HEALTHY for it to be like that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on May 11, 2013, 02:18:09 PM
It's probably HEALTHY for it to be like that.

Hey, you need to shut it if your going to be spewing common sense all over the place.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mattemeo on May 11, 2013, 08:10:55 PM
Perhaps if people didn't poop-sock their way to max-level as soon as possible from launch day and actually tried to get a feel for the world instead of complaining about a lack of end-game content 2 weeks after release, those 3 months could be doubled!

Hahahahaha! HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, seriously. I slay me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 11, 2013, 08:20:31 PM
Perhaps if people didn't poop-sock their way to max-level as soon as possible from launch day and actually tried to get a feel for the world instead of complaining about a lack of end-game content 2 weeks after release, those 3 months could be doubled!

Hahahahaha! HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, seriously. I slay me.

The people who poopsock to the end typically don't enjoy the leveling process and enjoy the race/end game more.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 11, 2013, 10:10:35 PM
I really like Mario Kart.  So I'll play Monopoly.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on May 11, 2013, 10:58:17 PM
This is starting to look pretty damn good.  Its easily my most anticipated MMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on May 12, 2013, 01:53:14 AM
Next 'DevSpeak' video is out, focusing on Movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qo5nrkYYI0

Wait, ...if the mob knocks the weapon out of your hand? And you have to go pick it up?  :drill:

Yah, they just threw that comment in there like it was nothing... knowing full well we'd squee over it.
Also, anyone else notice the mining node turned into a mob and fought back?   :drill: :drill: :drill:  Love it.  Reminds me of the mobs that used to hide in the asteroids from E&B; good mechanic.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 12, 2013, 11:23:46 AM
I really like Mario Kart.  So I'll play Monopoly.

You're pretty bad at analogies. Feel free to try again.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 12, 2013, 11:54:59 AM
I'll walk you through it.  Just because there is an element which you might find enjoyable or familiar (traveling in a circuitous route) does not mean that the game is designed for your style of play.  You hate leveling, don't play a level based game.  So you like going around the track really fast; doesn't mean you can roll 12d6.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tmp on May 12, 2013, 12:10:04 PM
Wait, ...if the mob knocks the weapon out of your hand? And you have to go pick it up?  :drill:

Yah, they just threw that comment in there like it was nothing... knowing full well we'd squee over it.
I think it's first time ever I see anyone wet themselves with excitement over the prospect of getting subjected to the Disarm in a MMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on May 12, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
I want a beta invite so bad. My evolved policy on MMO purchasing is never ever a day one purchase unless I was in the beta. If not beta access then, I wait to see who hates it and who loves it here. For instance if Ingmar hates it I will probably like it. If Ironwood likes it, then that means that the game actively dick punches...ect. If a Bat Country guild forms then I definitely purchase, but not to be in Bat Country because everyone knows BC lasts a month.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 12, 2013, 02:41:14 PM
I'll walk you through it.  Just because there is an element which you might find enjoyable or familiar (traveling in a circuitous route) does not mean that the game is designed for your style of play.  You hate leveling, don't play a level based game.  So you like going around the track really fast; doesn't mean you can roll 12d6.


Don't be retarded because Wildstar is advertising a robust, hardcore, raiding game full of min/max theorycrafting for the "1%" of gamers (did you see that gear modification system?). For players that want to compete in that sphere the leveling aspect is a bump in the road to get done with as soon as possible.

So where you fail is calling Wildstar just a "level based game". It's like you're purposefully ignoring every aspect of an MMORPG on purpose.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 12, 2013, 02:58:24 PM
I think it's first time ever I see anyone wet themselves with excitement over the prospect of getting subjected to the Disarm in a MMO.

Yes but this type of disarm isn't just about your weapon disappearing or you hand glowing and a message saying you do not have a weapon equipped... you have to go physically get your shit. At least I hope that is how it works...Little things like that make me all tingly.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on May 12, 2013, 10:11:15 PM
Sounds really fucking annoying to me, on the other hand.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on May 12, 2013, 10:38:45 PM
I think it's first time ever I see anyone wet themselves with excitement over the prospect of getting subjected to the Disarm in a MMO.

Yes but this type of disarm isn't just about your weapon disappearing or you hand glowing and a message saying you do not have a weapon equipped... you have to go physically get your shit. At least I hope that is how it works...Little things like that make me all tingly.

Ya picking up someone's dropped weapon will be the new form of griefing. Note to developers. People hated this back in Everquest. It didnt last 6 months before it got nerfed/fixed.




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on May 13, 2013, 12:27:57 AM
I'll explain the disarm mechanic having no knowledge of it but using my super-power of COMMON SENSE...!

Your weapon will never actually leave your hand/paperdoll, mechanically it will work the exact same as a wow disarm but the duration is entirely based on when you walk over the weapon ICON on the ground.

What you can do with this is make better disarms drop the weapon further away and also have a maximum duration just in case pathing issues drops the weapon icon in a bad spot.

How it improves on wow is it makes things more interactive and immersive, how it could backfire is trying to find your goddamn weapon in a mass melee of pve or pvp.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tmp on May 13, 2013, 05:25:03 AM
Sounds really fucking annoying to me, on the other hand.  :why_so_serious:
Yeah, i'm kinda expecting the novelty factor to wear off and be replaced with "goddammit at least regular disarm didn't make me waste extra time walking just to be able to do something effective again" ... around third mob which does it. Maybe fourth :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 13, 2013, 08:51:33 AM
Sorry for the shill, but here's a summary of the Circuit Board stuff that the devs talked about on the forums over the weekend:
http://wildstar.junkiesnation.com/2013/05/13/circuit-board-crafting-random-chips-and-you/

They also talked about elder game (end game) stuff as well, which is in another post.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 13, 2013, 09:32:30 AM
Sorry for the shill, but here's a summary of the Circuit Board stuff that the devs talked about on the forums over the weekend:
http://wildstar.junkiesnation.com/2013/05/13/circuit-board-crafting-random-chips-and-you/

They also talked about elder game (end game) stuff as well, which is in another post.

Seems interesting, but if they make this too complicated for the masses, I'd expect this to be a big turn off. Sadly, the masses that play this will be the ones to determine what is best in slot and if that is theoretically impossible to get, then a lot of the min/maxers will be a bit pissy. It does seem a little forgiving in terms of running a dungeon and say only getting drops for the one class you DIDN'T bring, but I get this feeling there is going to be a lot of griping about the best shit never dropping, or the stats you are getting on stuff is meh - ah la D3. Add in a lot of dependent components and the stick just gets too long for the carrot. This is all site unseen so I might be way off the mark, but it does make me pause some...for now at least.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 13, 2013, 09:59:14 AM
At least it gives you better reasons for running dungeons over and over. While you may run dungeons for that last drop, you now always have a chance at getting the same piece of gear with a better roll of stats on it. It also allows you to take apart gear for the modules to sell/save.

So, to me, you get more stuff out of repeated drops which is a bonus. It really depends on how frustrating gear rolls are.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 13, 2013, 10:36:29 AM
At least it gives you better reasons for running dungeons over and over. While you may run dungeons for that last drop, you now always have a chance at getting the same piece of gear with a better roll of stats on it. It also allows you to take apart gear for the modules to sell/save.

So, to me, you get more stuff out of repeated drops which is a bonus. It really depends on how frustrating gear rolls are.

Very true. But with so many configurations, I ma just hoping this doesn't end up being a situation where there are really only 5 penultimate gear stat configurations out of 3000. I recall back in WoW, running UBRS - first couple times was learning, then the next couple were streamlined gear runs, then the next were targeted gear runs, then the next was just fuck right off when all druid gear dropped every time. Sure, shit you got from DEing stuff was useful and you could sell it, but it still was not what you were after. So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree on the last sentence... such is gambling, erm playing an MMO end game, I guess.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on May 13, 2013, 10:37:26 AM
I think it's first time ever I see anyone wet themselves with excitement over the prospect of getting subjected to the Disarm in a MMO.

Yes but this type of disarm isn't just about your weapon disappearing or you hand glowing and a message saying you do not have a weapon equipped... you have to go physically get your shit. At least I hope that is how it works...Little things like that make me all tingly.

Ya picking up someone's dropped weapon will be the new form of griefing. Note to developers. People hated this back in Everquest. It didnt last 6 months before it got nerfed/fixed.




Seriously? it is obviously just a freaking animation, you are not going to actually drop your weapon on the ground.  And i say that with absolutely zero knowledge of the game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on May 13, 2013, 11:57:13 AM
Watched this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_4_riSI7Ydg#!

They apparently do have some interesting features: "warplots" (aka instanced guild castles", "custom content" (CoH like ?).  I mean if the games has all the features solid ,core gameplay fun  and lots of content - than heck why not.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 13, 2013, 02:02:44 PM
At least it gives you better reasons for running dungeons over and over. While you may run dungeons for that last drop, you now always have a chance at getting the same piece of gear with a better roll of stats on it. It also allows you to take apart gear for the modules to sell/save.

So, to me, you get more stuff out of repeated drops which is a bonus. It really depends on how frustrating gear rolls are.

Very true. But with so many configurations, I ma just hoping this doesn't end up being a situation where there are really only 5 penultimate gear stat configurations out of 3000. I recall back in WoW, running UBRS - first couple times was learning, then the next couple were streamlined gear runs, then the next were targeted gear runs, then the next was just fuck right off when all druid gear dropped every time. Sure, shit you got from DEing stuff was useful and you could sell it, but it still was not what you were after. So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree on the last sentence... such is gambling, erm playing an MMO end game, I guess.

If you go look up that Dev on Wildstar Central (why the fuck do these games not have their own message boards?) he talked about the system and it's goals back when they released this CBC info originally.

Ultimately they want to avoid, or make it difficult for people to go to an Elitist Jerks to find the best shit. They want to make a myriad of combos work or "be enough" and allow the crazy people to after the perfect set if they want.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on May 13, 2013, 02:09:43 PM
Ultimately they want to avoid, or make it difficult for people to go to an Elitist Jerks to find the best shit. They want to make a myriad of combos work or "be enough" and allow the crazy people to after the perfect set if they want.

Fine and dandy, but on the flip side, don't over complicate and open-end shit so much that players can't make heads-or-tails with it, or end gimping themselves due to a total lack of direction/focus.  Secret World comes to mind.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 13, 2013, 02:10:33 PM
Yup. Comes down to how good the design the system.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on May 13, 2013, 03:17:31 PM

Fine and dandy, but on the flip side, don't over complicate and open-end shit so much that players can't make heads-or-tails with it, or end gimping themselves due to a total lack of direction/focus.  Secret World comes to mind.

I kinda liked secret world system , but seems lot of no so theorycraft inclined people were really lost with it  and at the end of the day there is always best and most optimal builds no matter the system (unless all builds are identical)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 13, 2013, 03:59:05 PM
Ultimately they want to avoid, or make it difficult for people to go to an Elitist Jerks to find the best shit. They want to make a myriad of combos work or "be enough" and allow the crazy people to after the perfect set if they want.

Fine and dandy, but on the flip side, don't over complicate and open-end shit so much that players can't make heads-or-tails with it, or end gimping themselves due to a total lack of direction/focus.  Secret World comes to mind.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say, but failing miserably. Unless that system is dynamic, people will ultimately come to an agreement on the best shit and where it comes from, how long it takes is sort of a moot point. It happens in every game. The perfect set pieces don't matter only if there is no perfect set... which is a whole other matter. But yeah... I have a little faith. Tempered of course.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 13, 2013, 04:06:57 PM
Do they have a way to combat data mining?  I would imagine that would be the first step to stymieing the 'best in slot' lists.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on May 13, 2013, 06:29:42 PM
Wait, ...if the mob knocks the weapon out of your hand? And you have to go pick it up?  :drill:

Yah, they just threw that comment in there like it was nothing... knowing full well we'd squee over it.
I think it's first time ever I see anyone wet themselves with excitement over the prospect of getting subjected to the Disarm in a MMO.

Yeah, sounds a little obnoxious to me, honestly.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on May 14, 2013, 11:26:39 AM
How do you sign up for this stress test that guarantees a beta invite at some point?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 14, 2013, 12:31:55 PM
They are pulling stress test invites from the pool of beta applications. So if you applied already, you don't need to do anything.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on May 22, 2013, 03:08:13 AM
Epic Paths video is epic. (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/the-game/paths/)

 :drill:  I don't know which I want more...this or Hex.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on May 22, 2013, 06:03:13 AM
Why is EVERY GOD DAMN THING on Facebook these days?

No don't answer that... I don't want to know the answer.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on May 22, 2013, 06:43:33 AM
Hehe, in that latest video, I loved when the Mechari Settler swept off some (presumably oily) sweat  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on May 22, 2013, 03:22:35 PM
wtb beta invite pst


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on May 22, 2013, 04:54:43 PM
So I guess I'll be the only explorer in our guild, surrounded by settlers and scientists.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on May 22, 2013, 04:57:34 PM
I've been checking my email like every 10 minutes.  :(


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 22, 2013, 04:58:23 PM
Depends.  How much exploration can you have with a static world? 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on May 22, 2013, 05:08:12 PM
So I guess I'll be the only explorer in our guild, surrounded by settlers and scientists.  :why_so_serious:

Assuming the combat doesn't make Ingmar knock over the game board and stomp away completely, I wouldn't be totally surprised if he picked explorer. Scientist seems more likely if the lore isn't completely derp though, I guess.  :awesome_for_real:

But yeah, I will be building ALL THE THINGS.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tarami on May 22, 2013, 05:08:54 PM
Fuck you Wildstar! I have two years left on my degree! You can't open beta NOW?!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on May 22, 2013, 05:31:41 PM
Explorer seems to be JUMPING PUZZLES AHOY so unlikely I'll do that. Scientist looks most appealing to me at first glance.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 22, 2013, 05:48:48 PM
I highly doubt I can build a whore house, so that's out.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on May 23, 2013, 01:40:49 AM
Depends.  How much exploration can you have with a static world? 

What? You want a world where the mountains grow overnight and seas flood the land every week? GW2 was a static world too and no one really complained about exploring it. Hand crafted goes a long way where procedurally generated worlds tend to be boring.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on May 23, 2013, 02:19:42 AM
We also don't know how much of this path stuff is going to be instanced, no?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on May 23, 2013, 04:46:43 AM
Depends.  How much exploration can you have with a static world? 

What? You want a world where the mountains grow overnight and seas flood the land every week? GW2 was a static world too and no one really complained about exploring it. Hand crafted goes a long way where procedurally generated worlds tend to be boring.

Nah.  I understand the limitations of these games.  You can only see something for the first time once.  But that's inherently the problem.  An explorer is always after the new shiny, but in these games the new shiny lasts a month, then it's 6mo to 2yr before more new shiny comes along.  Of course I am buying the game (because fucking housing yo!) but I'm leery at these path choices.  Of course information is limited atm so don't take shit I'm saying to be serious gloom and doom naysaying, just a casual worry.

I'd really like to see progress in procedural generation though.  We're eventually going to have to go that way, imo.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 23, 2013, 12:43:24 PM
We also don't know how much of this path stuff is going to be instanced, no?

None of it is specifically instanced for paths (or at least the vast majority of it takes place in the open world as far as I know). But you might be able to do things in existing instances.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on May 23, 2013, 05:45:49 PM
Depends.  How much exploration can you have with a static world? 

AS GW2 has shown  -quite a lot. I played  for 6 month total and still dont have 100% map completion. I still see completely new zones (granted  exploration was not what I invested a lot of time into)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Shatter on May 29, 2013, 12:54:48 PM
Does this f*cking game have PvP?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 29, 2013, 01:09:58 PM
Does this f*cking game have PvP?


Standard MMO stuff.
PVE or PVP servers
Battlegrounds
Arenas

The new addition is Warplots which are essentially 40v40 Guild Housing fights.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Shatter on May 29, 2013, 01:39:24 PM
Does this f*cking game have PvP?


Standard MMO stuff.
PVE or PVP servers
Battlegrounds
Arenas

The new addition is Warplots which are essentially 40v40 Guild Housing fights.

Thanks m8, didnt have any games on my radar, now I do :)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on May 29, 2013, 01:43:36 PM
It's getting to where they should announce a release date if they want to get it in 2013.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on May 29, 2013, 06:45:05 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they go open beta or drop the NDA after pax prime.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on June 11, 2013, 02:52:28 PM
I thought this was interesting. http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/wildstars_economic_game.php

Also, he gave Raph a nice shout-out in the post:

Quote
Buying stuff is fun, or at least it can be depending upon what you are shopping for. But what is fun? Raph Koster, a well-known MMO designer, has written about the concept of fun at length in a book called A Theory of Fun for Game Design, which is worth reading, even if you don’t agree with everything in it. In the book, he explains that fun is a byproduct of learning and mastering something, which makes a lot of sense.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on June 11, 2013, 03:15:25 PM
I'm glad they pushed TESO til spring.  I now have a chance of getting more of my friends to try this. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on June 11, 2013, 03:35:11 PM
From my watching of this game, and talking with the people who've gotten their hands on the game at conventions, this game will be tuned and play like WOW vanilla. So if your friends want a modern WOW 1.0, then this is the game for you.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sir T on June 11, 2013, 04:14:42 PM
That's not a bad strategy to be fair. Wow has gotten too loaded with its own BS, a "down to basics" WOW might be enough to capture some of the people who are cheesed off with WOW but have nowhere else to go for the gameplay they like.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on June 11, 2013, 04:24:14 PM
I just want a damned beta invite. I feel like I am missing out on something big.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on June 11, 2013, 04:25:46 PM
They did a stress test recently. I don't think they actually give out beta invites. It's just a scam to get you on an email list.

CONSPIRACY!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on June 11, 2013, 05:29:12 PM
That's not a bad strategy to be fair. Wow has gotten too loaded with its own BS, a "down to basics" WOW might be enough to capture some of the people who are cheesed off with WOW but have nowhere else to go for the gameplay they like.

This is hardly "down to basics". I don't think I've ever seen an MMO trailer that promised quite as much at release as this one.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sir T on June 11, 2013, 06:01:19 PM
Yeah, that was badly phrased I guess.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on June 12, 2013, 08:35:46 AM
They already have a function cross realm dungeon finder according to some quotes from developers. That's like 90% of the way there! They also have a functioning addon system in place.

What we don't know is the quality of their class/character development and whether or not their dungeons and raids are horribly tuned or not.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Shatter on June 12, 2013, 08:39:07 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/12/e3-2013-not-so-wild-about-wildstar/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on June 12, 2013, 09:29:38 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/12/e3-2013-not-so-wild-about-wildstar/

Meh, just seemed like he was pissed he couldn't change the default controls and then harped on it for the entire article.  I think it would be fair to assume that the live game will allow players to change the controls to how they want...like every other game does. :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on June 12, 2013, 10:31:02 PM
What I got from that article was more of a "been there, done that" vibe.  Seems he felt Wildstar was just a rehash of what we've all been through already.  If that's the case, then I can understand the 'meh' reaction.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on June 13, 2013, 12:23:30 AM
What I got from that article was more of a "been there, done that" vibe.  Seems he felt Wildstar was just a rehash of what we've all been through already.  If that's the case, then I can understand the 'meh' reaction.

We are all on the same page that the vast vast majority of the progression gameplay is going to be Vanilla WoW in space right? I mean it sounds like he thought Vanilla WoW in Space was going to be a little more fun and different feeling than it actually is.

Double jump is pretty cash though, so hearing this game has double jump is the most exciting thing not called warplots. They are still a long way from me even thinking about a day one purchase but I used to be convinced this was going to be utter shite. Baby steps.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on June 13, 2013, 12:28:47 AM
What I got from that article was more of a "been there, done that" vibe.  Seems he felt Wildstar was just a rehash of what we've all been through already.  If that's the case, then I can understand the 'meh' reaction.

I don't know what he was expecting.  We've known for awhile now (if you've been following the game like the author of the article should have been) that this is a theme park MMO that has a lot of qualities of early WoW.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on June 13, 2013, 07:42:02 AM
I don't know what he was expecting.  We've known for awhile now (if you've been following the game like the author of the article should have been) that this is a theme park MMO that has a lot of qualities of early WoW.

Just to be clear, I wasn't judging the game.  I was just stating what I got from the author/article. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on June 13, 2013, 09:54:36 AM
What I got from that article was more of a "been there, done that" vibe.  Seems he felt Wildstar was just a rehash of what we've all been through already.  If that's the case, then I can understand the 'meh' reaction.

He sounds like a complete douche, tbh. He admits he went off path of the demo, bitches about controls, acts like he's totally above trying this wow-clone, and even manages to insult women as idiot gamers in the same article.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Xanthippe on June 13, 2013, 11:17:08 AM
I would play an mmo that was a reskin of vanilla WoW. Not for as long as I played WoW, but I would buy it and play it. (As long as Ghostcrawler was not involved in it, that is).

I would also play a reskin of the first Zelda. Heck, just a repeat of the game with the same everything but everything moved on the map (like the second game you get to play after the first one).

Have game developers completely given up on non-monster-killing professions in mmos? (Like trader or fisherman or farmer).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on June 13, 2013, 11:23:44 AM
I would play an mmo that was a reskin of vanilla WoW. Not for as long as I played WoW, but I would buy it and play it. (As long as Ghostcrawler was not involved in it, that is).

I would also play a reskin of the first Zelda. Heck, just a repeat of the game with the same everything but everything moved on the map (like the second game you get to play after the first one).

Have game developers completely given up on non-monster-killing professions in mmos? (Like trader or fisherman or farmer).

Yes. They see a game that a lot of people play, and they make more of that and less of the other stuff until that is all they are making. That other stuff is then forgotten about while companies continue to chase the hordes of gamers that are playing the only thing available. And the vicious cycle continues.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on June 13, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
I wouldn't play a reskin of WOW 1.0. However I would play a reskin of WoW 1.0 with GW2's combat system with a limited hotbar space. Wildstar's combat system will supposedly by close to that. Movement, soft targeting (telegraphs) and dodging. I don't think I could go back to a tab-target system with standard rotations and hotbars full of cooldowns and rotational abilities.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on June 13, 2013, 03:08:36 PM
But you can't rebind keys guyz!!!  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 13, 2013, 04:07:25 PM
But you can't rebind keys guyz!!!  :ye_gods:

Not even joking but if that's live it's a total deal breaker for me and I'm DOWN for wow in space big time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on June 13, 2013, 04:11:32 PM
I can say with a 99% certainty that it's not going live. My guess is they didn't want to let people waste time in a demo remapping keys.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 13, 2013, 05:33:09 PM
I would agree but I want to throw it out there because there are a lot of people like me who, if they can't remap keys get very, very pissy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on June 13, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
Might as well bitch about debug messages hitting the chat output.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on June 13, 2013, 05:39:40 PM
What's the last game you can remember that didn't let you remap keys?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 13, 2013, 05:42:32 PM
What's the last game you can remember that didn't let you remap keys?

Witcher 2 had a couple keys you could not change(mind you this is at release, may have been patched later)  There have been a few others that I can't recall off the top of my head but really I would say nearly all have re-mapping but many have "this button is holy" crap that for some reason you cannot re-bind certain functions.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on June 13, 2013, 05:54:19 PM
What's the last game you can remember that didn't let you remap keys?

Guild Wars 2 won't let me move them around on my taskbar.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: proudft on June 13, 2013, 06:17:16 PM
SWTOR won't let me remap Next Target to T.  It made me pissy enough to give WoW another shot.

 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on June 13, 2013, 06:20:42 PM
You're a known dumbo though.

Fucking Hobbit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: proudft on June 13, 2013, 07:08:52 PM


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sir T on June 14, 2013, 05:57:23 AM
Oblivion could only let you binb powers to keys 1 to 8 because consoles.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mattemeo on June 14, 2013, 07:29:03 AM
I don't use WASD, instead favouring the cursor keys and the keys around (right ctrl, shift, delete, pg up & down, numpad etc) so I tend to jump using my little finger on the right ctrl... WoW and SWtOR won't let me bind Ctrl to Jump because it's a 'holy' key, which is irritating as fuck and means I've had to get used to jumping using the click wheel of my mouse. Which, given the jumping puzzles and terrible action lag of the Hero Engine in SWtOR is a major handicap.

NO fucking key should EVER be sacrosanct in a PC game. The Keyboard exists as the ultimate expression of control freedom ffs.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tarami on June 14, 2013, 08:16:17 AM
You can't bind Ctrl because it would mean it would have to fire on key UP rather than key DOWN. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to distinguish between Ctrl alone and Ctrl as a modifier key. (You depress Ctrl - should it jump or should it wait for another key?)

WoW prior to some patch (2.x or so) fired on key up, which gave abilities delay. I remember having odd binds on Shift (like /sit) so I think it was possible at some point. It was changed for the sake of reponsitivity though, which I can only agree with.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on June 14, 2013, 08:50:18 AM
Hey guys, the game has fully bindable controls, that's 100% guaranteed. I'm willing to bet you will have a full blown bartender mod before the game even launches.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on June 14, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
I can say with a 99% certainty that it's not going live. My guess is they didn't want to let people waste time in a demo remapping keys.
Yes.  It was because it was at E3.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: DayDream on June 14, 2013, 12:46:46 PM
You can't bind Ctrl because it would mean it would have to fire on key UP rather than key DOWN. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to distinguish between Ctrl alone and Ctrl as a modifier key. (You depress Ctrl - should it jump or should it wait for another key?)

WoW prior to some patch (2.x or so) fired on key up, which gave abilities delay. I remember having odd binds on Shift (like /sit) so I think it was possible at some point. It was changed for the sake of reponsitivity though, which I can only agree with.

No.  The solution is to be able to separately define your modifier keys.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on June 14, 2013, 01:29:14 PM
I don't use WASD, instead favouring the cursor keys and the keys around (right ctrl, shift, delete, pg up & down, numpad etc) so I tend to jump using my little finger on the right ctrl... WoW and SWtOR won't let me bind Ctrl to Jump because it's a 'holy' key, which is irritating as fuck and means I've had to get used to jumping using the click wheel of my mouse. Which, given the jumping puzzles and terrible action lag of the Hero Engine in SWtOR is a major handicap.

NO fucking key should EVER be sacrosanct in a PC game. The Keyboard exists as the ultimate expression of control freedom ffs.


What planet do you come from?  :uhrr:

Madness!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on June 14, 2013, 03:21:16 PM
He comes from Planet Alb.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tarami on June 14, 2013, 04:17:20 PM
You can't bind Ctrl because it would mean it would have to fire on key UP rather than key DOWN. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to distinguish between Ctrl alone and Ctrl as a modifier key. (You depress Ctrl - should it jump or should it wait for another key?)

WoW prior to some patch (2.x or so) fired on key up, which gave abilities delay. I remember having odd binds on Shift (like /sit) so I think it was possible at some point. It was changed for the sake of reponsitivity though, which I can only agree with.

No.  The solution is to be able to separately define your modifier keys.
I wasn't suggesting a solution.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on June 20, 2013, 06:05:24 PM
A hands-on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovWB71RTVXc), if you are starving for news.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Trippy on June 20, 2013, 06:27:48 PM
"Video is private"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on June 20, 2013, 06:53:22 PM
What?! That's really strange. I can watch it just fine from two different computers and Youtube accounts.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on June 20, 2013, 06:55:46 PM
I can watch it just fine as well.



Edit: and by "watch fine" I mean, "strangle the living shit out of the narrator with every breath he takes"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Trippy on June 20, 2013, 06:56:55 PM
I'm not logged in.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on June 21, 2013, 10:07:35 AM
It annoyed the shit out of me how he dodged backwards every time, sometimes twice, when a step sideways would've completely avoided the enemy attack.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on June 21, 2013, 10:10:33 AM
Edit: and by "watch fine" I mean, "strangle the living shit out of the narrator with every breath he takes"

This. 

That video was painful.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on July 10, 2013, 02:19:31 PM
Beta houses competition:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/living_in_style_wildstar_beta_houses.php

Oh, last week update was nice too, talking a bit about UI modding:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/bitwise_and_packetdancer_talk_wildstar_ui_add-ons.php

I created this thread back in 2007; submitted my beta application, like, three minutes after the 2011 website went live and still no invite...."SO WHY DID YOU DO THIS..TO ME!!!" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N7KOGnATgM

*fetal position*


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on July 11, 2013, 12:06:01 PM
Did somebody say sorta-twitch? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjQLsE02OPg)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Trippy on July 11, 2013, 12:33:46 PM
Don't understand. What part of tab targeting is still around? From they were showing it was like the worst of both worlds, no tab targeting and no crosshair (?) to help you aim (instead you have to hold down skill buttons, yuck).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Miasma on July 11, 2013, 12:34:53 PM
I can not imagine playing a healer and needing people to stay still so that my spell zone area hits them.  Especially since the rest of the game emphasizes those people moving to deal/avoid damage.  That system could be fun for dps/tanks but nothing more than an exercise in futility for a healer.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 11, 2013, 12:40:38 PM
As someone that enjoys playing a healer, I think that having to anticipate movement could add some fun.  It's like dropping a ground AE spell.  You have to anticipate where it will do the most good.  I rather enjoyed that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Trippy on July 11, 2013, 12:43:25 PM
It's manageable if they design things properly. Tera has such a system for most of its healing spells. Wildstar is basically copying what Tera does with some twists.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: apocrypha on July 11, 2013, 12:46:36 PM
Adds a new twist to "FFs healer", namely "FFS DPS, stand in the fkin green heals and not in the fire!".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 11, 2013, 01:42:55 PM
SWTOR has a bunch of heals that work with ground targeting, it works just fine.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on July 11, 2013, 02:20:58 PM
Don't understand. What part of tab targeting is still around? From they were showing it was like the worst of both worlds, no tab targeting and no crosshair (?) to help you aim (instead you have to hold down skill buttons, yuck).


You can tab target, but your target has nothing to do with how your abilities land. Essentially it lets you pick targets out of the crowd and gives you something to aim towards.
The rest of the skills work like normal skills in any other MMORPG but you need to fire them off in the right direction.

Think GW2 but your area of effect is shown on the ground in red.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on July 11, 2013, 03:10:42 PM
Looking forward to it. I heart my GW2 elementalist, and basically all of my skills [except for the 'autoattack'] are ground targeted. Hasn't been a problem in my experience, even for the two heals.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 11, 2013, 06:23:27 PM
SWTOR has a bunch of heals that work with ground targeting, it works just fine.

It also has a bunch of heals that don't. And those are really helpful when you land your GTAE heal and your DPSers flee from it because they forgot you can do that.

So ... I think I prefer a mix.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 11, 2013, 06:30:54 PM
Now that I've watched the video, I'm about 80% sure I will hate the combat in this game. Oh well.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on July 11, 2013, 06:50:14 PM
At least you gave it a fair shake.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on July 11, 2013, 07:01:51 PM

This MMO seems to have developers with a clue and a sense of humor... good things can come from that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 11, 2013, 08:19:21 PM
At least you gave it a fair shake.

I'll still try it for the housing/paths stuff, but all that rolling around and aiming rules out things like collector's editions and such for me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 11, 2013, 08:31:23 PM
I'm an MMO junkie and I've never bought a collector's edition of anything.  NEVAH!

You guys are truly hardcore.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on July 11, 2013, 09:22:21 PM
Judging by the final comment, seems like they'll be using a few RL incap effects for abilities like 'blind.'  That is, you got blinded?  Your screen goes dark.  Which plays pretty well with their choice of aiming system.  I cant stand in RPGs when I get blinded and yet for some dumb reason I cant spam my berserker-ish aoe ability - makes no sense.   There are SOME things in life wherein you dont need a target.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on July 11, 2013, 10:03:12 PM
That combat system actually looks pretty awesome to me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on July 11, 2013, 11:31:51 PM
SWTOR has a bunch of heals that work with ground targeting, it works just fine.

It also has a bunch of heals that don't. And those are really helpful when you land your GTAE heal and your DPSers flee from it because they forgot you can do that.

So ... I think I prefer a mix.
Yeah, my guildies mostly share this view. I know that one of our healer-types hated healing rain in WOW due to the ground-targeting aspect. I love them, though, as they allow me to subtly influence my group members' positioning (and get them to stay at the right spot). Ditto with geyser/healing rain in GW2 dungeons. Dance, my puppets!

That said, I don't think there are many gtae heals in SWTOR at all, unless they added some recently. There's salvation from sage and the healing grenade from commando, and that's about it?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 12, 2013, 02:52:58 PM
It's just those two, yeah, scoundrels don't have one.

I don't hate GTAE stuff, it's just sometimes if it's a frantic fight you just don't have time to get your ground target JUST SO, and as a healer I am a control freak who doesn't like when she can't get things JUST SO in order to keep everyone alive.

I haven't raided seriously since WotLK, you see, so my hardened carapace of "fuck them, if they died it was their fault" has softened again.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on July 13, 2013, 10:07:59 AM
Sjofn makes an interesting point, mainly because Wildstar plans on going back to hardcore raiding style... which indeed requires precise healing (not conducive to an aiming system).   This is not a hardcore Trinity game though, so I anticipate it being more along the lines of something like GW2 classwise - which may make up the difference.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nonentity on July 19, 2013, 02:14:36 PM
Last 2 race reveals - Chua and Mordesh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t0mgu0_i3c


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on July 19, 2013, 02:53:41 PM
Told yea, Space Zombies.

The psychotic racoons are a surprise though.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mattemeo on July 19, 2013, 10:26:22 PM
Psychotic Space Racoons. I'm not entirely sure Carbine need to work this hard to make me want to play Wildstar, but I sure do appreciate their dedication to flicking my switches. Even the Mordesh have a great aesthetic - Neon Goth - going for them, and it's refreshing to have them work for the 'rebel' side.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on July 20, 2013, 02:26:04 AM
I am totally playing a Chua.   :awesome_for_real:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1069898_521764601230652_1187322938_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on July 20, 2013, 12:25:52 PM
Carbine is going to clean house when it comes time to divvy awards to community manager, art director, and marketing director.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on July 23, 2013, 12:09:57 AM
 :nda:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on July 23, 2013, 04:54:56 AM
:nda:

There was word of some kind of 10k invite stress test blitz they're doing.  Lucky stiff!   :angryfist:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on July 23, 2013, 05:27:28 AM
:nda:

 :mob: :mob: :mob: :mob: :mob: :mob: :cry2:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 23, 2013, 07:45:36 PM
 :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 23, 2013, 07:55:28 PM
I got... no it was spam.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on July 23, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
I saw a message in my inbox today from Carbine Studios and got excited until I noticed it was just an update featuring the new races.  So, yeah... :heartbreak: :heartbreak:.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on July 23, 2013, 10:54:44 PM
There are only two conditions that will make me buy this game. One is that i get to beta test it and discover that it is not shit. The other, if i don't get to beta it, is that an f13 guild makes it longer than a month. If neither of those conditions get met I wont be spending my money on it. Unless its free, then I will not play it at all. I am really fucking tired of the free to play evolution.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 24, 2013, 08:27:14 AM
If I have to group with more than 3 or 4 other people to get the top end gear, I'm not playing.  I'm sick of raiding as gated content. 

If it makes me feel like a  :pedobear: because of the graphics... also not playing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on July 24, 2013, 10:44:07 AM
If I have to group with more than 3 or 4 other people to get the top end gear, I'm not playing.  I'm sick of raiding as gated content. 

Ditto
If it makes me feel like a  :pedobear: because of the graphics... also not playing.

I haven't seen any "not child porn because they have elf ears" content, but I haven't done an exhaustive search.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on July 24, 2013, 11:43:16 AM
If I have to group with more than 3 or 4 other people to get the top end gear, I'm not playing.  I'm sick of raiding as gated content. 

If it makes me feel like a  :pedobear: because of the graphics... also not playing.

I'm more restrictive.  I want to be able to solo when no one else is on/around, and I want it to magically scale itself as more people login to play.  I don't want any dungeon to be more than a half an hour because folks can't stay focused for more than a half an hour.  I want a difficulty slider.

...

:) yeah, I'm probably not playing this game


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on July 24, 2013, 11:54:00 AM
I'm more restrictive.  I want to be able to solo when no one else is on/around, and I want it to magically scale itself as more people login to play.  I don't want any dungeon to be more than a half an hour because folks can't stay focused for more than a half an hour.  I want a difficulty slider.

...

:) yeah, I'm probably not playing this game

This is all I've ever wanted in a MMO.  I'm never going to get it.  That's OK with me, MMOs don't need to be my alpha and omega of gaming anymore. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on July 24, 2013, 12:05:02 PM
We had that game.  It was called City of Heroes, but not enough people played it so now we can't have nice things.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on July 24, 2013, 12:09:00 PM
I couldn't get past level 11 in CoH. I just found it incredibly boring.  Boring enough that I didn't make it 10 minutes into CoV before turning it off.   Game just didn't work for me at all.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 24, 2013, 12:17:47 PM
We had that game.  It was called City of Heroes, but not enough people played it so now we can't have nice things.

Loved that game and played it for years.  I'd be quite happy to have a fantasy version of CoH with better crafting, housing, and decent loot generator. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on July 24, 2013, 01:27:37 PM
I love CoH a lot as well, so much done right.  That said, the speed of leveling, waiting for powers to come off cool down and the jarring change in difficulty with that patch whose name I can't remember made it hard to stick with.  Heartbreaking really, given how simple those items should have been to fix.

So much done right.  Mentoring +/-, housing, interesting villains / villain groups / back stories.  Missions that scaled to those playing.  So much done right.   :cry:

Something else I always wanted in their missions - secondary objectives that accepted partial completion.  Example, "arrest all villains" was a frequent goal of the missions, but you could get stuck on that mission if the villain got stuck in the geometry.  They should have implemented secondary objects with fuzzy logic.  If you were playing a stealth hero, then you actually want to arrest as few as possible, ideally triggering a different next map (story arcing).  Playing the bad ass you want to arrest as many as possible.  Ramp up the difficulty by having some of the runners actually try to make it to the doorways instead of just hanging back a bit.  Higher score/better reward the more guys you arrest.  A villain (or gigaw I'm supposed to pickup) getting stuck in the geometry doesn't stop me from progressing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on July 24, 2013, 01:33:22 PM

I don't want any dungeon to be more than a half an hour because folks can't stay focused for more than a half an hour.  I want a difficulty slider.

...

:) yeah, I'm probably not playing this game

While I want to shake the fuck outta these ADHD people, I can't argue with the fact that you are about right. I like longer dungeons, but it seems the rest of the playerbase just can't handle it... thta makes me sad.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Trippy on July 24, 2013, 01:37:19 PM
I love CoH a lot as well, so much done right.  That said, the speed of leveling, waiting for powers to come off cool down and the jarring change in difficulty with that patch whose name I can't remember made it hard to stick with.  Heartbreaking really, given how simple those items should have been to fix.
Well there were a couple of radical global nerfs to the game but you are probably thinking of "Enhancement Diversification" aka ED.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 24, 2013, 01:59:31 PM
Scaling content is almost universally boring.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on July 24, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
Bethsoft's attempts at scaling would work OK for me.  Then again, they're not making you do the Heigan Safety Dance in Skyrim. 

Compelling and difficult solo content has been done well by TSW and GW2, they just haven't gone all the way yet.  Same with SWTOR really.  There's no reason why that game couldn't be 100% soloable, especially the leveling content.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 24, 2013, 02:10:06 PM
If you make a game F2P with achievements and cosmetics? The outdated idea that you have to gate things through large group content as a point of retention is no longer necessary. It could be 100% solo content with an economy, housing, social aspects, and exploring.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 24, 2013, 02:10:12 PM
Bethsoft's never done scaling for group size, so I don't think it's really an applicable example. The core problem with group scaling is you either have to remove complexity from the encounter as it gets smaller, or just have very little complexity in the fight to start with. You lose design space in other words; Blizzard managed to scale the 4 Horsemen in Naxxramas from a 40 person fight down to 25 and 10, but you really can't go beyond that; all that potential room for encounter design is just gone in a world where you'd scale all the way down to 1 person.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 24, 2013, 03:58:55 PM
While I loved CoX very much, the scaling wasn't exactly exciting or interesting. I'm by myself! There are groups of 3 bad guys all down the hall. I'm with Ingmar! There are groups of four or five baddies down the hall. I'm with a full group! I can't even SEE the hall for all the baddies.

But those baddies were the same exact baddies with the same exact powers. I prefer my group content to feel a little different. And they had that more interesting group content in the Task Forces (whose main flaw was that some of them took a billion years to actually complete), which were ... group only.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 24, 2013, 04:02:40 PM
The only way to have solo content be as or near as complex as group content is to have npc's available to be your group. At that point why even play an mmo?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on July 24, 2013, 04:44:16 PM
On the other hand, much of why I loved GW1 was because I could have customizable npc's available to be my group.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on July 24, 2013, 04:47:29 PM
And we officially reached the "what constitutes an MMO" part of the thread.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on July 24, 2013, 04:47:59 PM
The only way to have solo content be as or near as complex as group content is to have npc's available to be your group. At that point why even play an mmo?

Because you like people some of the time? Your gaming group of friends can't get together every day but would rather play with together given the chance? MMOs also come with a semi-persistent world/community and live development teams.   Those are nice.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 24, 2013, 05:20:30 PM
No, Rasix, you either want to play with other people ALL of the time or NONE of the time, there is never any in-between.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 24, 2013, 06:52:48 PM
No, Rasix, you either want to play with other people ALL of the time or NONE of the time, there is never any in-between.

Damn, and here I was sure there was a number between 1 and ALL. Those fucking musketeers ruined everything.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Megrim on July 24, 2013, 08:42:53 PM
Play a massively multi-player game.

Complain about not being able to solo.

f13 :rock_hard:



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on July 24, 2013, 08:53:04 PM
And we officially reached the "what constitutes an MMO" part of the thread.

Not yet, but I feel it coming on pretty rapidly.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 24, 2013, 08:54:03 PM
Play a massively multi-player game.

Complain about not being able to solo.

f13 :rock_hard:

We've been through this too many times to recall.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on July 24, 2013, 09:02:16 PM

Yep, but the audience is changing. The dedication required to PUG is fading as online gaming becomes more mainstream and gamers more fickle.

I accepted that EQ was group required for XP giving content because getting kicked in the balls was part of the novelty. I got over it...

Should there be rewards that encourage group play? for sure. It worked fine in CoH where the action became more fun and more rewarding so people would form groups because it was fun. It works fine in GW2 events where they scale up dynamically and you don't need to do a pre-PUG interview and item-check. Having a large amount of content behind a "5 man or piss off" barrier, especially if that content is challenging enough to make PUG's have a high failure rate, not so bright.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 24, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
Or you could you know, close the mmo and play a single player game for a while. MMO players just want everything all the time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on July 24, 2013, 10:12:55 PM
All genres are moving towards the "games as services" model.  MMOs included.  If your game is a service, you want to offer something to as many people as possible as often as possible, particularly when your income comes from people being invested enough to buy a new hat.  They are a lot less likely to buy that new shiny if they feel compelled to load up a different game when their friends aren't online.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on July 24, 2013, 11:03:46 PM
Or you could you know, close the mmo and play a single player game for a while. MMO players just want everything all the time.

Sometimes I want to climb out of my cave and stop being an anti-social hermit for awhile.  Sometimes.

All grouping, all the time is dumb.  All solo, all the time is dumb, too.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 24, 2013, 11:36:35 PM
Or you could you know, close the mmo and play a single player game for a while. MMO players just want everything all the time.

I think people think other people playing a game is fun in theory. The issue arises when players just want other MMO players to not be useless asshats. The problem is that they themselves are likely useless asshats. And that's because the genre attracted this kind of asshat over the years with it's time=success model of game.

Now it's just asshats all the way down.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 25, 2013, 11:33:31 AM
I don't think MMO's should be devoid of solo content but too many people want the solo content to be the same as the group content. "I want to one man raids" and that line of thinking is when you get homogenized dungeons so they can be scaled down.

Ideally an MMO should have enough fun solo content to keep people entertained but when they try to be all things to all people they tend to suffer.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 25, 2013, 12:14:41 PM
Ask yourself the following question though. Do people really enjoy large scale raiding?

I'd contend that the vast majority of the players do not enjoy anything over 4-5 people, and see it as more of a hassle getting in their way.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 25, 2013, 12:17:40 PM
People enjoy the spoils of raiding and often don't separate that from the exercise of raiding itself.  If they could get those same spoils using a group of 5, I'd bet that the majority would go that route instead.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 25, 2013, 12:34:12 PM
People enjoy the spoils of raiding and often don't separate that from the exercise of raiding itself.  If they could get those same spoils using a group of 5, I'd bet that the majority would go that route instead.

I think the 10 and 25 man split of WoW follows that logic. 25 man raiding for the most part fell off the face of the earth when they introduced the same rewards across the tiers.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ceryse on July 25, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
Ask yourself the following question though. Do people really enjoy large scale raiding?

I'd contend that the vast majority of the players do not enjoy anything over 4-5 people, and see it as more of a hassle getting in their way.

I'm probably in the minority, but I do enjoy the large scale raiding. The move to continually downsize the numbers involved are one of the reasons I'm not as into MMOs as I used to be. 20 is the bare minimum for me; I'm also not a huge fan of the smaller group content. I either want to solo, or work with as many as two others.. or at least 19 others. Anything in between just isn't for me.

That said, I have a love/hate relationship with any kind of grouping in MMOs. Love working with a lot of others to bring down content (including the organization/cat-herding aspect). Hate the fact I have to rely on x number of people to not be absolutely moronic.

As for what people will do or prefer? The majority will always go for the path of least resistance (which is always going to be fewer people due to making it easier and easier to organize) regardless of what they actually enjoy most.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 25, 2013, 01:00:57 PM
I love playing in a group of competent people.  My problems arise when all of the good players I know quit the game I'm playing.  You have to wade through so many terrible players in pve MMO's that rebuilding a group can seem like a monumental undertaking.  I don't even want to think about having to constantly fill a 10 or 25 man roster.  That's a nightmare in my mind and that doesn't even consider the rage I feel when one person consistently screws it up for the other 24, wasting their time in the process.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 25, 2013, 01:09:47 PM
Ask yourself the following question though. Do people really enjoy large scale raiding?

I often enjoy organized raiding in the 8-10 people zone. I don't mind it when it's 20+ type stuff as long as it is spontaneous everyone-in-the-zone-there's-a-monster-look-out sort of stuff. It's when you get the numbers up higher AND need to organize it all that I think it's not worth the bother.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on July 25, 2013, 02:01:51 PM
Yeah, raiding needs to be done in the GW2 model.  Big dragon spawns, everyone on the server that wants to rushes over and kills it. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on July 25, 2013, 02:30:55 PM
The giant monster spawns in CoH and the recent giant monster event in TSW where both like that and they were a lot of fun.  Only problem with them is when /too many/ people show up and the lag monster rears its ugly head.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on July 25, 2013, 02:53:31 PM
There is a lot of culling in GW2, in pve it doesn't bother me in the least but it seems to annoy some people.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on July 25, 2013, 05:13:11 PM
Yeah, raiding needs to be done in the GW2 model.  Big dragon spawns, everyone on the server that wants to rushes over and kills it.  

They already do. My guild chat is full of people watching timers for the next world spawn.

I don't think GW2 should bother trying to do raid content. They don't have the revenue stream, they more or less promised a flat power structure, their mechanics are poorly suited to it and the hard core raiders are still wedded to WoW. Their more casual gamer orientation is a comfortable and fitting market niche for them.

Now wildstar is promising raids so that will be interesting, and probably the reason they are talking about a "hybrid" subscription model and have a more cartoony and easy to extend art-style.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 25, 2013, 05:31:24 PM
The giant monster spawns in CoH and the recent giant monster event in TSW where both like that and they were a lot of fun.  Only problem with them is when /too many/ people show up and the lag monster rears its ugly head.

The giant monsters in CoH were quite a lot more fun than the equvalents in GW2, IMO, I think because the more defined character roles and abilities in CoH made you feel much more like you were contributing in a specific way. At least for me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on July 26, 2013, 07:10:10 AM
There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 26, 2013, 09:37:47 AM
There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on July 26, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Indeed. When in the entirety of the many fiction genres has an individual hero, or a group of five or less accomplished anything of note? I double-dog dare anyone to come up with an example. Personally, I look back fondly on many afternoons reading about Conan farming yeti pelts and plant seeds to turn in for reputation points. Have we forgotten the gripping tale of Frodo and Sam waiting for Borimir to finish his corpse run and all those other guys to get their shit together, find another thirty or so guys, and then have someone pull mobs from the Black Gate until Mordor runs out of orcs and they can all move on to next stage?



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kail on July 26, 2013, 11:30:13 AM
There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Mechanically, maybe, but it makes sense in the context of WoW lore.  To the extent that WoW lore makes any sense at all.  The Lich King was just an orc shaman once upon a time, Arthas was just a regular guy until he found a magic sword, etc.  There's no reason another guy with an even more biggerer magicker sword +2 couldn't kill him.  Whatever god like powers he was given are only there by author fiat, there's no reason you can't give the players the same.

IIRC your raid doesn't even beat him in WoW, you just fight him until he gets bored and instakills everyone, and then he gets NPCed to death.  There's no reason you couldn't do that with one guy instead of ten.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 26, 2013, 11:37:02 AM
Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Indeed. When in the entirety of the many fiction genres has an individual hero, or a group of five or less accomplished anything of note? I double-dog dare anyone to come up with an example. Personally, I look back fondly on many afternoons reading about Conan farming yeti pelts and plant seeds to turn in for reputation points. Have we forgotten the gripping tale of Frodo and Sam waiting for Borimir to finish his corpse run and all those other guys to get their shit together, find another thirty or so guys, and then have someone pull mobs from the Black Gate until Mordor runs out of orcs and they can all move on to next stage?



The problem being that you are not the single greatest hero in the history of Azeroth. You are some schlub mercenary just like a thousand others walking around doing the same bullshit poop grabbing quests as you.  If the game in any way set you up to be an epic hero the likes of Conan it would make sense but it doesn't and you aren't.  Therefore fighting anything on scale of a dragon or demigod solo is ridiculous.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 26, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
The problem being that you are not the single greatest hero in the history of Azeroth. You are some schlub mercenary just like a thousand others walking around doing the same bullshit poop grabbing quests as you.  If the game in any way set you up to be an epic hero the likes of Conan it would make sense but it doesn't and you aren't.  Therefore fighting anything on scale of a dragon or demigod solo is ridiculous.

I believe the key is to change the paradigm.  If you were to introduce skill to a point that some small percentage were capable of becoming epic heroes, perhaps that would provide incentive for players to either get better or stay in the game longer in an attempt to be better.  I think most of us are very sick of the time = power focus and would like some modification to time + skill = power.  The new metagame in WoT, for example, seems to be one of becoming elite in terms of statistics.  It's possible that many people are staying in game (i.e. decreased churn) for this reason alone.  It's not a bad idea given that most players can burn through content at a rate far greater than it can ever be generated.

Then there's the issue of NPC henchmen.  All heroes (and mercenaries) have access to henchmen if they have the money.  If I feel like I can do group content better by myself with 4 henchmen, why not let me?  It's really not much different from 2 good players dragging 3 scrubs through an encounter, is it?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on July 26, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
*edit, directed at Lakov, not Nebu*
Says you. If you want to pay to be a faceless, generic cog in these games go for it. As far as I'm concerned I am the center of the universe, the person who the entirety of the game revolves around. All those other people playing, some of whom are a lot more powerful? They're the center of their own stories. They can be in the same story as me, but fuck them if they try to make their part more important than mine in my portion.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 26, 2013, 12:42:11 PM
One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on July 26, 2013, 12:44:22 PM
I agree with Bob.  I don't want to play Lakov's game, it sounds lame.  Bob do I need to force one of my friends to play a healer in your game?  Can we do without?  Or do you provide an AI healer?  If yes, shut up and take my money!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 26, 2013, 12:45:06 PM
One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on July 26, 2013, 01:03:34 PM
*edit, directed at Lakov, not Nebu*
Says you. If you want to pay to be a faceless, generic cog in these games go for it. As far as I'm concerned I am the center of the universe, the person who the entirety of the game revolves around. All those other people playing, some of whom are a lot more powerful? They're the center of their own stories. They can be in the same story as me, but fuck them if they try to make their part more important than mine in my portion.

Ironically, the most 'heroic' I've ever felt in gaming is within large raids/squads (when I know we all die if I fuckup, the mission will fail if I dont show at the rally point, or perhaps I didnt work hard enough grinding/crafting gear [I was the guy in my guild who did Cenarion Circle to keep pace with the rest of my guild that was already on Rags as I was just getting back into WoW]).  Solo gaming to me is NOT heroic; you're just playing out an on-rails storyline just like every other mundane who bought the game.  Any heroics in this sense is strictly locked up inside subjective experience due to storyline.  Similar can be said for small autogrouped & balanced instances wherein the magic wears off the moment the last boss goes down.  

So the more people you add to this equation, and the more difficult a task, the more important one becomes.  This is why in all my gaming history (tis lengthy), nothing comes close to vanilla WoW raids and early WW2O gameplay as for providing a sense of true heroics, importance, and tension.

Shit... heroics!?   :awesome_for_real:   I've got a ton of stories for that.  None of them involve shit like solo-grinding scholomance.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on July 26, 2013, 01:09:14 PM
Solo gaming to me is NOT heroic; you're just playing out an on-rails storyline just like every other mundane who bought the game.

That's because the MMO solo game is poorly designed and targeted at the ability of the below average gamer.  If some of the solo content required a significant skill component (like most single player games), then you would feel pretty damn spiffy about defeating a tough encounter.  Particularly if only a few people were similarly able to defeat it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2013, 01:12:47 PM
Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Indeed. When in the entirety of the many fiction genres has an individual hero, or a group of five or less accomplished anything of note? I double-dog dare anyone to come up with an example. Personally, I look back fondly on many afternoons reading about Conan farming yeti pelts and plant seeds to turn in for reputation points. Have we forgotten the gripping tale of Frodo and Sam waiting for Borimir to finish his corpse run and all those other guys to get their shit together, find another thirty or so guys, and then have someone pull mobs from the Black Gate until Mordor runs out of orcs and they can all move on to next stage?



The problem being that you are not the single greatest hero in the history of Azeroth. You are some schlub mercenary just like a thousand others walking around doing the same bullshit poop grabbing quests as you.  If the game in any way set you up to be an epic hero the likes of Conan it would make sense but it doesn't and you aren't.  Therefore fighting anything on scale of a dragon or demigod solo is ridiculous.

[MAJOR SPOILER] from the end of the Jedi Knight storyline in SWTOR puts the lie to this notion, as it applies to MMOs as a whole. There's no reason WoW couldn't be structured in a way to make you the center of the story instead of Thrall or whoever.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on July 26, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

Some games just can't be made to please everyone.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 26, 2013, 01:49:00 PM
One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.

Yes, it would be very helpful, but it would probably piss off the bads and make them quit. So likely no dice.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Trippy on July 26, 2013, 01:57:40 PM
One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.
Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.
UO did this for crafting.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 26, 2013, 02:10:09 PM
Don't confuse my statement for my own desires when it comes to narrative.
There is nothing in online games that makes you feel epic or heroic beyond the norm of the world(every other person is a hero)

If you want to believe you are, great, awesome but it's also completely in your head because the game itself does not tell you that. 
Then I'm forced to wonder, if you have to go through THAT much effort to try and be the hero in a game, why not just play a game where you are the hero?

I've done some awesome things in mmo's that made me feel heroic as part of a group, I've also done some awesomely badass things in solo games. In neither case did I have to go out of my way to set up a scenario where I had to augment the game narrative to enjoy myself.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on July 26, 2013, 03:22:20 PM
There's plenty in the game that tells you so, for quite a few MMOs I have played.  WoW, for one.  There are numerous quests that reference how incredibly awesome you are and how thank god you are there because there is some serious shit going down and they need someone like you.

Yes, it doesn't make sense that there are thousands of epic, incredible heroes in the world, but that's because the worlds don't make sense.  You may choose to believe you are just a "pretty good" mercenary or whatever in MMOs these days, and I can see why that would be appealing, but there is no more validity to that belief than believing you are one of the greatest heroes of your age in WoW.  Plenty in the narrative supports that.

This reminds me of the hilarious anger when people were like "OMG HOW COULD 25 PEOPLE KILL ILLIDAN THAT'S RIDICULOUS."  There aren't, like, "power levels" in real life, or even in most fiction.  Games have them because they are games, but even the goddamn narratives of games don't have them in anywhere near as rigid a sense.  There aren't "levels" of heroism.  If you go out and constantly solve hideous problems and vanquish horrible, evil foes on a daily basis, well fuck, you are a miraculous goddamn hero.  Yes, there are a thousand heroes in WoW because it makes no sense.  You can't make it make sense as a whole.  You just have to choose what to consider real and what to consider a game abstraction.

My point in all this rambling is that MMOs are even more impossibly weird than most games where you kill 1000 people, and it's silly to act like there's some "correct" way to interpret exactly how much of a hero you are and who it would be ridiculous for you to be able to kill.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2013, 03:37:13 PM
One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.

Yes, it would be very helpful, but it would probably piss off the bads and make them quit. So likely no dice.

As long as you can't see the entire chart and it's just a reward/prestige thing for the people who make the list, I don't see why it would cause a problem. A bigger (potential) issue is coming up with a measurement system that doesn't cause behaviors that are actually detrimental in an actual encounter but get you farther up a list.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 26, 2013, 03:45:04 PM
One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Oh, the heady days when I was ULTIMATE rank in four puzzles.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 26, 2013, 03:52:21 PM
I was ultimate in sailing. For some reason I can't bilge. Like at all.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on July 26, 2013, 03:59:20 PM
It's because you're bad.  LFM Blackjack raid, need someone that can actually bilge.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on July 26, 2013, 04:04:32 PM
It's because you're bad.

Well obviously.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2013, 04:18:01 PM
Bilging is the only one I really liked (and I had some kind of super multi-ocean high ranking with it at one point) so we'd make a decent team.

Sailing though, fuck sailing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on July 26, 2013, 04:25:06 PM
I never felt like I had a bigger epeen than when someone would admire my sexy, sexy rankings. Of course, it also means I get sent to the carpentry mines, because everyone seems to hate it except me. Unfortunately, when I played last, they usually would pull me off carpentry to load guns (carpentry is the most expendable during sea battle, I guess?), and I am fucking terrible at the gunnery game.

I was also pretty butt at the navigation game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on July 26, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
There's plenty in the game that tells you so, for quite a few MMOs I have played.  WoW, for one.  There are numerous quests that reference how incredibly awesome you are and how thank god you are there because there is some serious shit going down and they need someone like you.

WoW is very strongly progression based, so raids and "I kill elder-gods for breakfast" make sense in that narrative. For small values of "make sense" anyway. Some of the more narrative based content could just as easily be built around the potential of a single agent.

It's really just a question of design. If you want to make your content group only, challenging and tiered you'll gain the people who love raids and lose the people who want a more casual experience. Maybe that's a good deal.

But the more serious problem is there's probably going to be a dominant raid game. Because people want to compare their e-peen in the game were getting that e-peen is the most varied, challenging and recognised. Or to put it another way if you want to play the raid game you probably need to be the successor to WoW.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on July 27, 2013, 09:19:30 AM
[snip]
It's really just a question of design. If you want to make your content group only, challenging and tiered you'll gain the people who love raids and lose the people who want a more casual experience. Maybe that's a good deal.

[snip]

I 100% think it is a good deal. There are so many games out now, they need to start specializing to specific audiences.  They need to start looking at EVEs success in a niche.  I don't begrudge the folks that like to have 10/20/40 other folks along for the ride and love the 'team' feeling in their games.  I think that those games should absolutely require grouping at every step of the way and have content hand-tuned for groups.

I'd like a game that scales from 1 to 5ish auto-magically and also has a difficulty slider - cause some nights we're either shit faced or just suck. And whether I'm solo or in a group I have a similar chance of getting the best gear in the game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on July 28, 2013, 07:52:42 AM
There's plenty in the game that tells you so, for quite a few MMOs I have played.  WoW, for one.  There are numerous quests that reference how incredibly awesome you are and how thank god you are there because there is some serious shit going down and they need someone like you.

WoW is very strongly progression based, so raids and "I kill elder-gods for breakfast" make sense in that narrative. For small values of "make sense" anyway. Some of the more narrative based content could just as easily be built around the potential of a single agent.



I don't think he meant raids specifically. When I played WoW there were quest lines that lead to whole villages cheering your character for whatever, killing a local bad guy that was soloable from what I recall. Mostly introduced in the first expansion iirc.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on July 28, 2013, 11:39:36 AM

I don't think he meant raids specifically. When I played WoW there were quest lines that lead to whole villages cheering your character for whatever, killing a local bad guy that was soloable from what I recall. Mostly introduced in the first expansion iirc.


Yeah, that's exactly what I was referring to.

Basically, my point was:

- These games, taken at face value, are so impossibly ridiculous that in order for any narrative to make sense, you have to abstract away huge, huge portions of actual gameplay and just pretend none of that stuff is really happening.  In the game you and your friends hit the bad guy 100,000 times, but that's just an abstraction for, like, a bunch of you rushing him and one of you manages to stab him with a sword once or twice.  Beyond that, there are thousands of heroes around, all of them constantly solving the same huge world problems.  You just have to pretend maybe only your friends actually exist and maybe the others are just villagers?  And your friends are actually solving different issues, you just kinda choose to ignore that you're being told the same story?  Who knows.
- Given that, it's hilarious to make any argument for how many people it should take to kill a given thing based on what makes the most narrative sense, since you have to continually ignore the gameplay in order for the narrative to make sense.  Even these games own, in-game narratives ignore the game mechanics.  There's no lines like, "Fortunately, I'm too powerful to be assassinated.  It would take an assassin with the finest weapons available at least five minutes to kill me even if I was completely immobilized, and my guards would reach me by then."  Similarly, and what I was referring to before, they do, in fact, tell you that you are the greatest hero ever, despite the game mechanics flying in the face of that, just like they fly in the face of everything else related to the narrative.  And that's ok.  It's the only reasonable way of dealing with an extremely gamey game.
- So basically it's dumb to argue for or against soloable content on narrative grounds.  It is and should be purely a game design decision.  It does make sense for the toughest dudes in the narrative to be the ones that require tons of dudes to kill, typically, because if you're going to make it so that you have to do a bunch of real world work to kill some of the dudes in the game, it might as well be the toughest dudes in the story.  But it's NOT because it wouldn't make sense for one dude to kill Arthas or Illidan or whatever.  NOTHING of what you see on screen makes sense.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: SurfD on August 01, 2013, 04:52:23 AM
Just thought I would ask:  Any idea how big the download to install the beta client is?

The place I am currently living at is somewhat bandwidth challenged, and I am shareing the connection with the landlord.  They are on a 50gig a month cap, and I have agreed to try to stay under around 20gig a month.  Is grabbing the beta going to totally blow my bandwidth allowance?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 01, 2013, 05:10:51 AM
There is about a 75% chance of that.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 01, 2013, 02:33:57 PM
There's plenty in the game that tells you so, for quite a few MMOs I have played.  WoW, for one.  There are numerous quests that reference how incredibly awesome you are and how thank god you are there because there is some serious shit going down and they need someone like you.

WoW is very strongly progression based, so raids and "I kill elder-gods for breakfast" make sense in that narrative. For small values of "make sense" anyway. Some of the more narrative based content could just as easily be built around the potential of a single agent.




I don't think he meant raids specifically. When I played WoW there were quest lines that lead to whole villages cheering your character for whatever, killing a local bad guy that was soloable from what I recall. Mostly introduced in the first expansion iirc.


Just finished an end of zone quest in Rift Storm Legion that had the whole camp turn out to cheer my character so it's becoming more common, at least in those games that slavishly copy WoW.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on August 01, 2013, 02:36:39 PM
Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought I did some pretty epic shit going through WoLK leveling content. 



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on August 01, 2013, 09:08:47 PM
Even the end of the Draenei starting arc had the village cheering you on.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: SurfD on August 02, 2013, 05:14:50 AM
There's plenty in the game that tells you so, for quite a few MMOs I have played.  WoW, for one.  There are numerous quests that reference how incredibly awesome you are and how thank god you are there because there is some serious shit going down and they need someone like you.

WoW is very strongly progression based, so raids and "I kill elder-gods for breakfast" make sense in that narrative. For small values of "make sense" anyway. Some of the more narrative based content could just as easily be built around the potential of a single agent.




I don't think he meant raids specifically. When I played WoW there were quest lines that lead to whole villages cheering your character for whatever, killing a local bad guy that was soloable from what I recall. Mostly introduced in the first expansion iirc.


Just finished an end of zone quest in Rift Storm Legion that had the whole camp turn out to cheer my character so it's becoming more common, at least in those games that slavishly copy WoW.


Beh, WoW sort of stole it from City of Heros anyhow.   One of the many things I missed about that game.   They knew EVERY mission you ran, and so had loads of hooks tied into the people on the street.  You would be roaming about town and random people would comment about how "hey, isnt that the Hero that took down so-and-so", or "Look, there goes X, the hero that solved such'n'such mystery".  Was pretty cool since the more "famous" you became, the more people seemed to know of your great deeds.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Chockonuts on August 02, 2013, 10:28:32 AM

Beh, WoW sort of stole it from City of Heros anyhow.   One of the many things I missed about that game.   They knew EVERY mission you ran, and so had loads of hooks tied into the people on the street.  You would be roaming about town and random people would comment about how "hey, isnt that the Hero that took down so-and-so", or "Look, there goes X, the hero that solved such'n'such mystery".  Was pretty cool since the more "famous" you became, the more people seemed to know of your great deeds.
Looking forward to the day when CoH is mentioned about as often as Auto Assault still is.

It's getting to the point where anytime someone even mentions it, you feel as though they should also include violins in the background or some 9/11 type tribute attached to it.

Seriously, it was just a game. They'll make more.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 02, 2013, 11:15:09 AM
Looking forward to the day when CoH is mentioned about as often as Auto Assault still is.

It's getting to the point where anytime someone even mentions it, you feel as though they should also include violins in the background or some 9/11 type tribute attached to it.

Seriously, it was just a game. They'll make more.

You shut your whore mouth, it was a travesty the way CoH was treated. It is an insult to mention Auto Assault in a reference to CoH.

Kidding aside. CoH was pretty good. It is a shame it got treated the way it did from start to finish.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 02, 2013, 11:26:03 AM
Back then, there were a lot of great games that got mistreated.  It's ultimately our fault though; too much game-hopping. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 02, 2013, 01:11:41 PM
CoH was the most repetitive MMO I ever played.  I had fun for the year or so I was subbed but after I left it never even became a game I went back to for a nostalgic look.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Chockonuts on August 02, 2013, 02:04:29 PM
Looking forward to the day when CoH is mentioned about as often as Auto Assault still is.

It's getting to the point where anytime someone even mentions it, you feel as though they should also include violins in the background or some 9/11 type tribute attached to it.

Seriously, it was just a game. They'll make more.

You shut your whore mouth, it was a travesty the way CoH was treated. It is an insult to mention Auto Assault in a reference to CoH.

Kidding aside. CoH was pretty good. It is a shame it got treated the way it did from start to finish.
It was a decent enough game, I just never saw the shining, mystical life-altering aura surrounding it a lot of the ex-CoH players seem to talk about now that it's dead. There most certainly were, and still are, a plethora of games that should have been shut down before CoH though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on August 02, 2013, 03:10:30 PM
The best thing about CoH was the character generator. It was grindy as balls otherwise. I never got past the early teens in that game. Warehouse simulator wasn't terribly compelling for me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on August 02, 2013, 03:39:25 PM
The best part about CoH was the Mission Architect (no, not the farming missions  :awesome_for_real:).

That, and Total Focus. Dat animation.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 02, 2013, 08:34:03 PM

CoH being grindy was all about the way in which it was mis-treated as I understand it. A good foundation they milked while they worked on something else (which became Champions Online eventually).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 02, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
Yea that's really what killed it. iirc CoH was the first MMO to peak early and then see a cliff of subscriptions shortly after. And yet they stupidly kept to their Vision of grind. This was completely at odds with their premise of crazy levels of customization coupled with action-y comant.

Eventually all their cool concepts did appear in other games, but it tooks years. And all the while I lament on what CoH/V coulda been.

Such a waste.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: SurfD on August 03, 2013, 01:21:28 AM
Yea that's really what killed it. iirc CoH was the first MMO to peak early and then see a cliff of subscriptions shortly after. And yet they stupidly kept to their Vision of grind. This was completely at odds with their premise of crazy levels of customization coupled with action-y comant.

Eventually all their cool concepts did appear in other games, but it tooks years. And all the while I lament on what CoH/V coulda been.

Such a waste.
Essentially this.  The reason most of the ex CoH people on this board gush about it is not because of the gameplay (which was repedative grindy ass mostly), but because of all the neat mechanics the guys incorporated into the game, many of which still seem well ahead of their time.  Things like Exemplar / Sidekicking allowing people of vastly different levels to group almost seamlessly without resulting in one party feeling underpowered / overpowered, or the Giant Monster system that let players of pretty much any level take on massive threats without being useless (imagine level 10s trying to fight a level 60 world boss in WoW.  They would be useless speedbumps, and probably die whenever the thing even looked at them).   Dynamic dungeon scaling was also another cool one.   There were SO many great mechanics at the heart of the game that got washed away under the overall focus on grindy, repedative leveling.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kitsune on August 03, 2013, 06:14:59 PM
Essentially this.  The reason most of the ex CoH people on this board gush about it is not because of the gameplay (which was repedative grindy ass mostly), but because of all the neat mechanics the guys incorporated into the game, many of which still seem well ahead of their time.  Things like Exemplar / Sidekicking allowing people of vastly different levels to group almost seamlessly without resulting in one party feeling underpowered / overpowered, or the Giant Monster system that let players of pretty much any level take on massive threats without being useless (imagine level 10s trying to fight a level 60 world boss in WoW.  They would be useless speedbumps, and probably die whenever the thing even looked at them).   Dynamic dungeon scaling was also another cool one.   There were SO many great mechanics at the heart of the game that got washed away under the overall focus on grindy, repedative leveling.

The reason I gush about CoH is because you could jump a mile then punch a street thug down a city block and it was AWESOME.  That's really all it takes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 03, 2013, 06:41:24 PM
Yep. Very kinetic experience (is that the right word) I don't remember seeing again until DCUO, which had only some of it.

I just wish they coulda gotten their mind out of the grind.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 03, 2013, 06:57:41 PM

They didn't want grind... they just didn't put enough money in to cover the slow levelling curve. Though this was the age where farming monsters was sort of considered content.

On the other hand DCUO was every bit as boring and had less of an excuse.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 03, 2013, 08:34:34 PM
Agree on the second point, but Cryptic not wanting a grind? I don't see it. The leveling curve was EQ-like arduous for a game that otherwise had very console-y like sensibilities. I still feel they were sitting on a goldmine if they could have just gotten out of the whole "this is a MMO and therefore we must have a guaranteed 15 months of subs" convention. Man, they coulda just put in tradeable costume recustomization players woulda RMT'd the shit out of years before inter-player "RMT" became corporate-sponsored "F2P". We'd all be talking about how CoH started it all instead of EQ1.

My only solace is that in another of the infinite timestreams in the multiverse, this did happen  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 03, 2013, 09:03:01 PM

I'd more consider that a symptom. They didn't want the grind, they just didn't want to invest money in content and what was left was a grind.

I mean any game that has one end-boss raid for several years is a good indication of a development team that just really doesn't give a damn.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 04, 2013, 03:16:53 AM
Yea that's really what killed it. iirc CoH was the first MMO to peak early and then see a cliff of subscriptions shortly after. And yet they stupidly kept to their Vision of grind. This was completely at odds with their premise of crazy levels of customization coupled with action-y comant.

Eventually all their cool concepts did appear in other games, but it tooks years. And all the while I lament on what CoH/V coulda been.

Such a waste.

CoH had more or less stable subscription numbers for YEARS, I am pretty sure they never fell off a cliff the way something like WAR did.

This narrative here about how CoH was some kind of giant failure is really just off. It was a successful niche game, that was all it was ever *going* to be, and it really only died due to age and lack of interest on NCSoft's part. I am getting the sense that most of you never went back to it after the Paragon/Cryptic split, they were doing good stuff with that game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: PalmTrees on August 04, 2013, 03:38:09 AM
Yeah, the CoH grind was pretty much gone, they put in a no-xp toggle so people didn't outlevel contacts. What they really needed, from day one to the end, was a steady stream of new and randomized mission maps. My goodness, I could navigate some of those maps with my eyes closed.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on August 04, 2013, 08:28:47 AM
CoH had more or less stable subscription numbers for YEARS, I am pretty sure they never fell off a cliff the way something like WAR did.

This narrative here about how CoH was some kind of giant failure is really just off. It was a successful niche game, that was all it was ever *going* to be, and it really only died due to age and lack of interest on NCSoft's part. I am getting the sense that most of you never went back to it after the Paragon/Cryptic split, they were doing good stuff with that game.

It's subscription revenue had been in decline since 2007 up to the day it closed (rare peak aside). CoH/V had three very good years from 2004 to 2007 but arguably took some development body blows when CoV wasn't hugely successful in drawing new players and NCsoft put all of its spare money and resources into Tabula Rasa.

Also, CoH/V being niche depends on how you define 'niche'. For a while there it had nearly 200k active players, which generally put it top 5 in player subscription numbers within the Western market.

As for NCsoft not showing interest, they greenlighted both the Going Rogue expansion and the F2P change, but neither was successful in brining the players back for long.

CoH/V's place among MMOs has been hugely benefited by a group of cheerleaders who loved everything that Paragon Studios did, despite the fact that the changes they made to the game were never able to increase their subscriber numbers.

As for the grind... it was a bit smoother, but let's just say that if you wanted to start buying things in the Auction House the grind was still in full effect or you needed to be really lucky and get some rare item drops. No, you didn't NEED full IO sets, but they certainly made things a lot easier (and quirky, like when a random effect activated within some sets).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 04, 2013, 10:09:15 AM
I played COH a bunch of times, I never made it past level 5 or whatever because the game itself was boring and shitty. but I play the crap out of the character creator.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on August 04, 2013, 10:30:55 AM
The tragic thing about COH isn't that the game died, as all MMOs do, but that so many of the brilliant innovations it brought to the genre still haven't been picked up by later titles. A number of them would be even more appropriate in the current f2p environment. Now that the game is dead, a lot of these techniques will basically need to be rediscovered by other studios as the game slips out of the collective mind of the industry.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 04, 2013, 10:44:43 AM
The tragic thing about COH isn't that the game died, as all MMOs do, but that so many of the brilliant innovations it brought to the genre still haven't been picked up by later titles. A number of them would be even more appropriate in the current f2p environment. Now that the game is dead, a lot of these techniques will basically need to be rediscovered by other studios as the game slips out of the collective mind of the industry.

Like what exactly?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 04, 2013, 10:45:19 AM
COH ( And all the old titles ) also had the luxury of being in a smaller market of games. Now, there are least 10 MMO's launching each month.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Goreschach on August 04, 2013, 12:03:35 PM
The tragic thing about COH isn't that the game died, as all MMOs do, but that so many of the brilliant innovations it brought to the genre still haven't been picked up by later titles. A number of them would be even more appropriate in the current f2p environment. Now that the game is dead, a lot of these techniques will basically need to be rediscovered by other studios as the game slips out of the collective mind of the industry.

Like what exactly?

I don't keep track of every feature in every MMO, so some of these may have been used elsewhere, but just of the top of my head:

The mission difficulty slider had around half a dozen levels. Every mmo I've seen typically just does some 2/3 split like normal/legendary or easy/medium/hard. Not that six is perfect, I'd like to see more games generalize it to an actual slider that dynamically adjusts monster toughness and spawns. And the mission architect could entirely sustain a character( with the exception of AO slot token things, iirc). Maybe Neverwinter can do this, too? Usually mmo's that even allow character missions tend to gimp them in some way so players won't exploit them. Yes, it's understandable why. Honestly, at this point, I'm past caring what other people do in MMOs.

A lot of games have a sidekick feature now, but how many have exemplaring? Maybe a few, but I can't think of any offhand.

The aforementioned player specific citizen banter. Unlike WoW's scripted phasing system, this was dynamic and used all over the the gameworld. Did ChampsO implement this? I didn't bother with that game for very long, so I can't remember.

Palette and color customizability for the entire character model. Most games that offer any customization only allow for dying of things like articles of clothing. If I recall correctly, even ChampsO was missing some of the cosmetic customizability options of COH. The outfit swap buttons actually let you swap everything about your character, not just outfit. Body size, gender, skin color and texture, etc. And no, Second Life doesn't count. Because it's not a game.

You could arguably claim that COV was an expansion, but it was sold as a standalone sequel. I can't recall any other MMO having crossover compatability with a sequel, even so far as simply 'import your GameX character name to GameX 2!". You could even switch characters over with a quest chain.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 04, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
Not only did CoH have great character customization, but you could also change the visual effects of your powers. For weapon builds this wasn't a huge deal, but being able to change the colors of your blasts and such was awesome.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 04, 2013, 02:19:39 PM
So about that Wildstar...   :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 04, 2013, 02:46:55 PM
Not only did CoH have great character customization, but you could also change the visual effects of your powers. For weapon builds this wasn't a huge deal, but being able to change the colors of your blasts and such was awesome.


Champions Online basically did all of that stuff.  Although their direction has been to add more costume parts on the store (not giving players a way to design/sell costumes), and comic book style content releases which have been too few and far between.  Kind of surprising given STO and NW having the content creation tools that they haven't applied it to CO yet, you think that might be the most obvious place of all to have it.


But since this is a Wildstar thread, I guess I'll just try to bend it back to that topic by saying at least they seem to have an interesting housing system.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on August 04, 2013, 07:16:14 PM
It's all under NDA still right? We can only say we like/dislike the artstyle so many times.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 05, 2013, 10:02:19 PM
Yea that's really what killed it. iirc CoH was the first MMO to peak early and then see a cliff of subscriptions shortly after. And yet they stupidly kept to their Vision of grind. This was completely at odds with their premise of crazy levels of customization coupled with action-y comant.

Eventually all their cool concepts did appear in other games, but it tooks years. And all the while I lament on what CoH/V coulda been.

Such a waste.

CoH had more or less stable subscription numbers for YEARS, I am pretty sure they never fell off a cliff the way something like WAR did.
It was one of the first MMOs to launch big and fall off considerably iirc. Yea it's common now for games to launch and then shed players and resources, and nobody's ever launching a subs-based game again. And MMOs are a dime a dozen, all over mobile devices, launching with multiple revenue models, peaking early and then getting dustbinned within months.

But back then, MMO subs started low and incrementally grew and core MMO gamers were still thinking the next MMO was going to be the last one they'd ever need. We're talking a decade ago, less than a year since SWG had launched and then half a decade of subs games all hail mary'ing into f2p or closing outright. I mean back then the idea of an MMO closing? Very different world :-)

Games that are still around all eventually stabilized. But success after shedding resources for the players you ended up with is different than successfully delivering to the market you thought you'd have in the first place. It's only "failure" if your game/company are no longer around. But it's "success" that has features which get emulated.

Oh and on topic: Wildstar graphics r gud


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on August 05, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
Not only did CoH have great character customization, but you could also change the visual effects of your powers. For weapon builds this wasn't a huge deal, but being able to change the colors of your blasts and such was awesome.

Yeah, I want that sort of customization to be done more often.

I know why they DON'T usually do it, but I still want them to.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 05, 2013, 11:44:48 PM
Most complete feature-list/explanation I've seen thus far. (http://wildstar.junkiesnation.com/2013/08/05/wildstar-a-guide-to-what-we-know/)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 06, 2013, 07:44:46 AM
"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I'm out.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 08:54:15 AM
"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

Look... 2005 is back!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 06, 2013, 09:03:01 AM
There has to be some incentive to do 40 mans as the devs have said that it's supposed to be super "kick you in the nuts" hard.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
There has to be some incentive to do 40 mans as the devs have said that it's supposed to be super "kick you in the nuts" hard.

As if cat herding wasn't hard enough.

Do people really enjoy spending hours trying to defeat an encounter because 2-3 mouth-breathers don't know to get out of the fire and waste the time of 30 others? 

Slot machines.  Meh.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 06, 2013, 09:35:45 AM
I've seen people all over the world physically organize into large groups to attack, claim, defend, and link imaginary portals opened by errant higgs bosons.    So, clicking "I will attend" on a Wildstar raid scheduler doesn't seem so ludicrous.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on August 06, 2013, 09:39:52 AM
Quote
There will be something similar to raid attunements that players will have to work through in order to prepare themselves for raiding.
2005 indeed.

e: also, notResilience and notPVPPower on pvp gear, along with a gear progression system that's pretty much like WOW was at its worst (have to play arenas to get the best gear, and you bet it'll be heavily gear-based). Oh well, they still have time to change their minds, I guess.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 09:45:49 AM
I've seen people all over the world physically organize into large groups to attack, claim, defend, and link imaginary portals opened by errant higgs bosons.    So, clicking "I will attend" on a Wildstar raid scheduler doesn't seem so ludicrous.

Organizing 40 people interested in a niche != organizing 40 people in a mass market game.  You did play WoW and EQ, right?  Many among WoW's playerbase needed a freaking MOD to get through encounters in less than an evening.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 06, 2013, 09:48:30 AM
Organizing 40 people interested in a niche != organizing 40 people in a mass market game.  You did play WoW and EQ, right?  Many among WoW's playerbase needed a freaking MOD to get through encounters in less than an evening.
Even with the mods a great many people still cannot do the content.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 06, 2013, 10:00:03 AM
Ahahahah, I can't believe the devs are stupid enough to think the 40-man raid thing will last very long.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Miasma on August 06, 2013, 10:05:03 AM
Jesus, 40 man.  Without any sort of lfr to get those numbers.  Idiots.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 06, 2013, 10:09:09 AM
They have LFD though; is that not the same thing as LFR?

edit: Personally, I think it's smart to dip into hardcore largescale raids.  Dont feel like arguing the reasons why right now though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 06, 2013, 10:53:33 AM
I wonder how good their metric gathering is.

Any takers on how many raids with like 0.00005 of the population completing or even looking at them it will take before someone decides that maybe it's a waste of development time and art assets, even if it's all divergent from the main storyline?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 10:54:20 AM
They have LFD though; is that not the same thing as LFR?

edit: Personally, I think it's smart to dip into hardcore largescale raids.  Dont feel like arguing the reasons why right now though.

I'd still like to hear your perspective.  Don't let my bile discourage you.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2013, 10:55:17 AM
Most of you here are super casual nancies, but there is a demand for harder raiding encounters. I've been saying this for a while now, but this game is WOW Vanilla++. I also find it hilarious that, given all the content that is supposedly in this game, that you can't get the best gear in PVE that makes you quit.

They said that PVE and PVP gear will be separate, so who knows if we should believe them or not, but take that for what it worth.

You guys cry too much anyway. I won't be doing 40 man raids, but I'll be playing the game because it looks fun.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2013, 11:02:59 AM
They have LFD though; is that not the same thing as LFR?

edit: Personally, I think it's smart to dip into hardcore largescale raids.  Dont feel like arguing the reasons why right now though.

I'd still like to hear your perspective.  Don't let my bile discourage you.

I'll answer that question from my perspective. Games need layers, in my opinion, to make players keep coming back. In Wildstar PVE it'll be the gear from raids to shoot for. In League of Legends it's chancing your Bronze-Silver-Gold etc. rank. In PVP games it's ranks and ladders and other shit. This gives the player a sense that the game is not finished and still holds more for you. Maybe it even gives you an air of mysticism.

Contrast that with WOW where there is 3-4 difficulty levels for raids, different numbers and in the end, the content is basically the same. You see the same boss, the loot is the same except that it's got better +gooder stats and the coloring and textures are different. When you can finish the hardest raid encounter in the game, no matter the difficulty, you feel like you finished the game. Most people won't feel the rust to do it on LFR then Normal then Heroic. Most people don't even beat single player videos games let alone on 2 or 3 difficulty settings. Same thing with MMOS.

So if you want to use the old carrot on the stick argument, or a psychological one about keeping the game open ended, or always presenting a challenge; there is a reason why there should be very difficult content in a game that is exclusive to people who are "skilled" (loaded word) enough to do it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 11:17:58 AM
"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I have no problem with there being raids in the game.  My problem comes from making it mandatory content for character development.  If it's the only way that I can complete my character's progression, then I either have to do it or live with a less than best-in-slot toon. 

Why are devs so against alternate advancement pathways?  Choice is good.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2013, 11:37:49 AM
There are other ways, supposedly, to advance your character. However the best gear in the game comes from the big raids. You'll have to live with that I guess if you decide to play the game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 11:46:32 AM
There are other ways, supposedly, to advance your character. However the best gear in the game comes from the big raids. You'll have to live with that I guess if you decide to play the game.

I understand.  It's just disappointing.  I sometimes feel like a kid wanting to ride the rollercoaster but can't because I'm not big enough.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 06, 2013, 11:47:23 AM
"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I have no problem with there being raids in the game.  My problem comes from making it mandatory content for character development.  If it's the only way that I can complete my character's progression, then I either have to do it or live with a less than best-in-slot toon. 

Why are devs so against alternate advancement pathways?  Choice is good.

Yep, completely agree.

"There has to be some incentive to do 40 mans as the devs have said that it's supposed to be super "kick you in the nuts" hard." 

There is.  It sounds something like this, "Our raid beat this ultra-hard raid and we have this awesome cosmetic thingee to prove it!  The awesome cosmetic thingee even has a number in it that shows where we were in the list - we were the third guild on our server to drop Humongous Rex!"

Another line of thought I have no patience for - "you don't NEED this equipment!".

Yes I do, because I want it.  If your game won't give me, a player that only wants to play with people that I like playing with, equal footing in core design systems to folks who will put up strangers I'll keep looking for a game that will.  Thus the, "I'm out".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 11:49:27 AM
Apparently it's too much work to generate 'ultra-hard' 5-man content.   :uhrr:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 06, 2013, 11:56:51 AM
Most of you here are super casual nancies, but there is a demand for harder raiding encounters. I've been saying this for a while now, but this game is WOW Vanilla++. I also find it hilarious that, given all the content that is supposedly in this game, that you can't get the best gear in PVE that makes you quit.

They said that PVE and PVP gear will be separate, so who knows if we should believe them or not, but take that for what it worth.

You guys cry too much anyway. I won't be doing 40 man raids, but I'll be playing the game because it looks fun.

Because I've done this too many times before.  There is always a point in these games where having the best gear is an obvious advantage.  I need look no further than, "World PvE events".  The try hard is going to be the one that can survive the big breath (or whatever) while the scrubs choke it down immediately.  The try hard is going to be higher in the damage done, healing done, etc, and the rich get richer.  In a game fundamentally about gear, isolating the best gear to a small section of your player base is not a design I care for and it will color my perception of all my playtime.

Did that.  Not interested.  I don't in any way resent those that like this type of game-play - there is plenty of competition out there, I'm happy for anyone that gets a game that they like.

Why I care about this game is because I really like the marketing they put in for house building (not actually having seen the housing, I only have the marketing to go on).  I like public-style quests in addition to solo questing and dungeons.  I just don't care for raids.  Too much time, too many self-absorbed personalities, too much drama.

[Edit: making for less incomprehensible sentences and why I cared about this game]


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 11:58:42 AM
I am definitely not 'casual' when I play MMO's.  I just am adverse to other people wasting my time.  Finding 40 people that I want to spend my gaming time with seems like a Herculean task.  Hell, finding 5 people I can tolerate in voice chat for more than a few minutes is tough enough.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Surlyboi on August 06, 2013, 12:05:59 PM
Most of you here are super casual nancies, but there is a demand for harder raiding encounters. I've been saying this for a while now, but this game is WOW Vanilla++. I also find it hilarious that, given all the content that is supposedly in this game, that you can't get the best gear in PVE that makes you quit.

They said that PVE and PVP gear will be separate, so who knows if we should believe them or not, but take that for what it worth.

You guys cry too much anyway. I won't be doing 40 man raids, but I'll be playing the game because it looks fun.

Because I've done this too many times before.  There is always a point in these games where having the best gear is an obvious advantage.  I need look no further than, "World PvE events".  The try hard is going to be the one that can survive the big breath (or whatever) while the scrubs choke it down immediately.  The try hard is going to be higher in the damage done, healing done, etc, and the rich get richer.  In a game fundamentally about gear, isolating the best gear to a small section of your player base is not a design I care for and it will color my perception of all my playtime.

Did that.  Not interested.  I don't in any way resent those that like this type of game-play - there is plenty of competition out there, I'm happy for anyone that gets a game that they like.

[Edit: making for less incomprehensible sentences]

I was never the try hard in EQ, yet on a regular basis, I was the biggest damage dealer in raids and group outings. It can be done without being "that guy" but it's hard and honestly, a bit counter-productive to cater to the catasses.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 06, 2013, 12:07:33 PM
Most complete feature-list/explanation I've seen thus far. (http://wildstar.junkiesnation.com/2013/08/05/wildstar-a-guide-to-what-we-know/)

The armor upgrading is wrong, they got rid of that a while ago.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 06, 2013, 01:19:06 PM
There are other ways, supposedly, to advance your character. However the best gear in the game comes from the big raids. You'll have to live with that I guess if you decide to play the game.

I understand.  It's just disappointing.  I sometimes feel like a kid wanting to ride the rollercoaster but can't because I'm not big enough.

Except you actually can ride the rollercoaster, you just don't want to wait in line.

EDIT: Which I can understand, I don't want to wait in line either. 10-12 is about the most number of players I want to deal with basically ever. Unless the gear impacts something competitive, though, and the rest of the game is fun, I can ignore the missing +5 on my stats or whatever.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 01:25:23 PM
Except you actually can ride the rollercoaster, you just don't want to wait in line.

Fair enough.  Though it's probably more accurate to say that I don't want to pay the high ticket price (i.e. the time and aggrivation investment).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on August 06, 2013, 01:29:14 PM
I don't care about the 40man raid loot (though I do find it amusing, along with the return of attunements... yeah, 2005 all right), but I do care about the proposed pvp gear system. PVP gear progression, two pvp gear stats, best pvp gear only available if you do arenas... yea. I played that game a few times, don't really want to play it again.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 06, 2013, 01:49:29 PM
They have LFD though; is that not the same thing as LFR?

edit: Personally, I think it's smart to dip into hardcore largescale raids.  Dont feel like arguing the reasons why right now though.

I'd still like to hear your perspective.  Don't let my bile discourage you.

I'll answer that question from my perspective. Games need layers, in my opinion, to make players keep coming back. In Wildstar PVE it'll be the gear from raids to shoot for. In League of Legends it's chancing your Bronze-Silver-Gold etc. rank. In PVP games it's ranks and ladders and other shit. This gives the player a sense that the game is not finished and still holds more for you. Maybe it even gives you an air of mysticism.

Contrast that with WOW where there is 3-4 difficulty levels for raids, different numbers and in the end, the content is basically the same. You see the same boss, the loot is the same except that it's got better +gooder stats and the coloring and textures are different. When you can finish the hardest raid encounter in the game, no matter the difficulty, you feel like you finished the game. Most people won't feel the rust to do it on LFR then Normal then Heroic. Most people don't even beat single player videos games let alone on 2 or 3 difficulty settings. Same thing with MMOS.

So if you want to use the old carrot on the stick argument, or a psychological one about keeping the game open ended, or always presenting a challenge; there is a reason why there should be very difficult content in a game that is exclusive to people who are "skilled" (loaded word) enough to do it.

I love it when someone types exactly what I wanted to say, w/o me actually having to type.  It's like having my own slave.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2013, 02:29:03 PM
Most of you here are super casual nancies, but there is a demand for harder raiding encounters. I've been saying this for a while now, but this game is WOW Vanilla++. I also find it hilarious that, given all the content that is supposedly in this game, that you can't get the best gear in PVE that makes you quit.

They said that PVE and PVP gear will be separate, so who knows if we should believe them or not, but take that for what it worth.

You guys cry too much anyway. I won't be doing 40 man raids, but I'll be playing the game because it looks fun.

Because I've done this too many times before.  There is always a point in these games where having the best gear is an obvious advantage.  I need look no further than, "World PvE events".  The try hard is going to be the one that can survive the big breath (or whatever) while the scrubs choke it down immediately.  The try hard is going to be higher in the damage done, healing done, etc, and the rich get richer.  In a game fundamentally about gear, isolating the best gear to a small section of your player base is not a design I care for and it will color my perception of all my playtime.

Did that.  Not interested.  I don't in any way resent those that like this type of game-play - there is plenty of competition out there, I'm happy for anyone that gets a game that they like.

Why I care about this game is because I really like the marketing they put in for house building (not actually having seen the housing, I only have the marketing to go on).  I like public-style quests in addition to solo questing and dungeons.  I just don't care for raids.  Too much time, too many self-absorbed personalities, too much drama.

[Edit: making for less incomprehensible sentences and why I cared about this game]

Like you said, don't play the game and ignore it from here on out. They are unabashedly recreating WOW 1.0 with modern polish and QoL stuff. If you hated WOW 1.0 because you couldn't complete BWL or only a small portion of the population was even able to see Naxx, you will hate Wildstar. If you are not content running 5 mans, heroic 5 mans, solo-lore instances, housing stuff, battlegrounds and arenas and then eventually running 20 and 40 man raids when they get tuned down, then it's not the game for you?

Seems kind of silly to hate on a game because a small aspect of it is shut off to you due to your own limitations (skill, desire, patience, ability to find a guild). I personally won't be doing 40 mans because I don't have the time, desire, or patience to run a raid schedule. That doesn't detract from the game to me, and I'll have a lot of fun doing the other stuff.

And you know what? That's ok. There are tons of MMOs coming out these days that cater to a lot of different people, I'm sure you can find one. Games these days don't need to cater to every single aspect of social or antisocial gamer out there.

Anyway, TLDR: This isn't the game you are looking for?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 06, 2013, 02:54:03 PM
90% of the people in here were clamoring for WoW In Space once they'd had their fill of WoW and moved on.  Now we get it and there's hate because of raiding.     :facepalm:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 03:00:25 PM
90% of the people in here were clamoring for WoW In Space once they'd had their fill of WoW and moved on.  Now we get it and there's hate because of raiding.     :facepalm:

Nobody... not a single soul here thought WoW was without its flaws.  We just differed in opinion as to what those flaws were.

For me it was large scale raids and gear dependent PvP/crap PvP balance.  The 10 man stuff helped that a great deal for me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 06, 2013, 03:11:36 PM
And you know what? That's ok. There are tons of MMOs coming out these days that cater to a lot of different people, I'm sure you can find one. Games these days don't need to cater to every single aspect of social or antisocial gamer out there.

I think that you take for granted the information you have available by running a fan site.  

I can't think of many new MMO's on the Horizon that cater to my play style.  Matter of fact, the number of quality MMO's on the horizon for release in the next year seems rather small.  If you have a suggestion of something I should watch, I'd be grateful.   


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on August 06, 2013, 04:25:14 PM
Does the raid gear effect any PvP or the content cycle?

Vanilla raiding only became a bitch for me when it was ALL the content. "So I've been running Shcolomance for awhile now guys, maybe something new? No? oh ok..." That and the obvious PvP issues it caused.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2013, 04:32:47 PM
I'm not sure what your tastes are exactly. What kind of pvp do you like? Gear based? Level based? Open world? Instanced? Diku or action or hotbar?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on August 06, 2013, 04:35:51 PM
I'm a big fan of stat caps. Once I start losing because the other dude killed a dragon and got a fancy sword, I'm out.

I'm also out once it becomes solely about composition. Like once I need to tell my friends and myself "we all gotta reroll or its gonna suck", fuck it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2013, 06:30:46 PM
That's why PVP in almost every MMORPG is stupid once you put in levels. In my opinion, any game that asks me to level a character for 80+ hours before I can be on equal footing is bad. Which is why I enjoy playing LOL or FPSs for that stuff.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 06, 2013, 06:59:50 PM
Oh has the wailing finally begun? Delicious.

Honest question, if they said you can get the best gear in the game but it is much more rare and will take much longer outside of 40-man raid content would this still be a problem? Like if you could grind out something that would upgrade your gear to as good or 95% as good but it takes quite some time compared to getting the drop off the 40-man content would you be happy or mad that the top tier raider types are getting it faster?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 06, 2013, 07:10:34 PM
They should just put raid only stats on the gear so not everyone feels they must have it.  If the raid gear had the same stats as your gear +10% damage to raid mobs, would that still bother people who don't want to raid?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 06, 2013, 07:11:48 PM
No, but then raiders get all twisted over it; see Radiance in LOTRO.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 06, 2013, 07:43:53 PM
Everyone should be doing the things they find fun.  If the devs have to give players extra incentive to do a certain activity, I have to wonder why they have that activity.  If all activities reward the player with the same progression items (i.e. loot) and no one wants to do raids because of that, it implies that people just really want the best rewards.  Why do games feel like they need to social engineer players into pre-set groups?

That said, I recognize that organizing 40 people is more difficult then organizing 5 people, and some recognition of overcoming that challenge is warranted.  Thus the suggestion that raiders get special cosmetic items.  I would suggest that the special item is the same high-level loot, but with a serial number and a better graphic.  Team Fortress 2 and LoL business model runs on cosmetic items, suggesting that MMOs can't have raid based upon cosmetic items seems to imply to me that few people really want to run raids.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 06, 2013, 07:50:05 PM
Everyone should be doing the things they find fun.  If the devs have to give players extra incentive to do a certain activity, I have to wonder why they have that activity.  If all activities reward the player with the same progression items (i.e. loot) and no one wants to do raids because of that, it implies that people just really want the best rewards.  Why do games feel like they need to social engineer players into pre-set groups?

That said, I recognize that organizing 40 people is more difficult then organizing 5 people, and some recognition of overcoming that challenge is warranted.  Thus the suggestion that raiders get special cosmetic items.  I would suggest that the special item is the same high-level loot, but with a serial number and a better graphic.  Team Fortress 2 and LoL business model runs on cosmetic items, suggesting that MMOs can't have raid based upon cosmetic items seems to imply to me that few people really want to run raids.

OK, but for some people, chasing after gear with better stats *is fun*. They put up with the actual raid - and many of them do enjoy it but there are absolutely people for whom it is only a means to an end - to get there because they want that rush at getting the item or whatever, and some segment of those people are not happy with cosmetic items.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 06, 2013, 07:56:19 PM
Everyone should be doing the things they find fun.  If the devs have to give players extra incentive to do a certain activity, I have to wonder why they have that activity.  If all activities reward the player with the same progression items (i.e. loot) and no one wants to do raids because of that, it implies that people just really want the best rewards.  Why do games feel like they need to social engineer players into pre-set groups?

That said, I recognize that organizing 40 people is more difficult then organizing 5 people, and some recognition of overcoming that challenge is warranted.  Thus the suggestion that raiders get special cosmetic items.  I would suggest that the special item is the same high-level loot, but with a serial number and a better graphic.  Team Fortress 2 and LoL business model runs on cosmetic items, suggesting that MMOs can't have raid based upon cosmetic items seems to imply to me that few people really want to run raids.

OK, but for some people, chasing after gear with better stats *is fun*. They put up with the actual raid - and many of them do enjoy it but there are absolutely people for whom it is only a means to an end - to get there because they want that rush at getting the item or whatever, and some segment of those people are not happy with cosmetic items.

For *everyone* playing one of these games chasing after gear (and other progression, level, abilities, what have you) is fun.  That is why they play these games and not no-progression FPS, RTS, etc.  Unless the activity that you like gets the best gear, then having one activity getting the best gear is not fun.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 06, 2013, 07:59:12 PM
I don't mind a game going for the raiders or not being suited for the more casual gaming I'm into now. I did EQ and WoW raiding and it had it's own type of fun but too much invested time....

The more interesting question is whether it's a good idea for the game as a whole. Having a raid progression sucks up a lot of cash and development time which means starving other parts of the game and probably needing a subscription fee to fund it. And making raid content that appeals to the elite, when there are lots of MMO's and the trend seems towards more casual play, seems risky.

Of course they might also be looking at a rapidly weakening WoW, with Titan ineligible as a replacement, and thinking it's worth a shot.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 06, 2013, 09:51:00 PM
"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I'm out.
Oh come on. That to me is like saying yould never play COD or LOL or SC2 unless you think you can hit first place in the world rankings. How would you compare your chances of doing that versus PUGing a 40-man for gear?

I get it of course. Players knowing there's a glass ceiling is demotivating. But this has been a staple forever, and I personally have long since come to terms with what I'll never be able to do without considerable lifestyle changes I have no intention of ever making.

They should just put raid only stats on the gear so not everyone feels they must have it.  If the raid gear had the same stats as your gear +10% damage to raid mobs, would that still bother people who don't want to raid?
Well, they kinda do that already in MMOs don't they? Players typically can steamroll regular non-raid level-cap content just in what they achieve from non-raid quests. While that is just the starting point for raid progression thereafter, all the subsequent raid gear typically allows that player to do is steamroll the non-raid level-cap content slightly quicker.

I don't dislike your idea though. It kinda sounds like that Fractals-only (or was it Shores only) stat they launched in GW2. No idea if it's still a fractals-only stat, but it was an interesting approach. The playerbase is already going to compartmentalize by zone/map/event, so formalizing that makes it easier for those to accept the existence of the fence that's going to always be there anyway.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 07, 2013, 01:17:59 AM
Honest question, if they said you can get the best gear in the game but it is much more rare and will take much longer outside of 40-man raid content would this still be a problem? Like if you could grind out something that would upgrade your gear to as good or 95% as good but it takes quite some time compared to getting the drop off the 40-man content would you be happy or mad that the top tier raider types are getting it faster?

It would still be a problem, unless it was a free to play game. If there's a sub involved i want the exact same access to everything in the game playing solo the entire time. I demand that it be a solo game that I pay a subscription fee for continuing support and new content, there just happens to be other people playing it around me. I want the option to group with other people and have the difficulty scale up, or fuck it - stay exactly the same. Make it a fucking joke where we're just running around decapitating everything in one swing like it's a Monty Python movie. If I group it should be because it's fun to do and I like the company regardless of what's happening in the game. Sort of like, you know, "grouping" with people in the real world. Grouping with random people who could give a shit who or what I am and make it seem like it's me and 4 high-strung NPCs is for chumps and idiots. And frankly that's what just about every MMO guild that's ever been. Certainly all the ones big enough to get 20 people together for a raid.

People like to cry about how trivial Wrath of the Lich King group stuff was, but there's a reason it was the pinnacle of WoW in terms of fun, satisfaction, and subs. It's also no coincidence that those three things dropped once they bumped things back up again.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 07, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
If Wrath of the Lich King was acceptable to you, then you're saying you actually don't need access to the best gear as a solo player, as that stuff was hiding in heroic 25s.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on August 07, 2013, 03:05:11 AM
WotLK was about right for me, personally, I didn't give a shit that the 25-man people had "better" gear than me, because I wasn't doing 25-mans, and (usually) the 10-mans were balanced for the people doing 10-mans. So I had my little progression track where I had new shit to do every patch, just like the people doing the "real" raids. They also made an effort to release new 5-mans, new dailies without going too overboard, etc.

That's really what it is for me, if they're going to derp it and focus on pooping out enough 40-man shit to keep the catasses happy while ignoring everyone else, that's going to be a huge problem for me. I am cool with parts of the game not being for me. I am not cool with not getting any new shit ever because they're too focused on a part of the game I am not interested in.

I am also so over PvP stats. I am extra special over "you have to do arenas to get the really good shit" thing. That's not as big a deal for me, though, if I want to PvP I have lowbie PvP in SWTOR and WvW in GW2 to entertain me. :P


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on August 07, 2013, 03:22:38 AM
Pretty much. To reiterate my previous posts: I don't really care about 40man raid gear, attunements, and "appealing to vanilla or BC WOW fans" in general (other than being amused that all this is apparently a good thing in 2013). I don't do that shit, others do it, they like it or don't -- whatever, it doesn't impact me. Edit: actually it does if people are taking their "better than everything else" 2-shot-tastic uberweapons / trinkets into pvp, which can be brutal even if they don't have pvp stats... just as it was in vanilla and BC WOW.

What DOES impact me is their archaic design of gear-based pvp, which, again, is a throwback to the time when pvp in WOW was at its worst (with arena-only pvp gear and the resilience stat ensuring that if you didn't grind for your gear, you were just an ineffective speedbump). Yeah, I played that game when it was called WOW, Rift, and SWTOR. It wasn't a good system then, and it sure as heck isn't going to be one now... and that's assuming they are going to take some basic sanity measures that have been implemented by those games in the last 8 years (such as bolstering, or a free set of pvp gear that's actually semi-competitive), which I haven't seen any evidence of. But even then, the system is flawed at its core.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: apocrypha on August 07, 2013, 04:54:43 AM
if they're going to derp it and focus on pooping out enough 40-man shit to keep the catasses happy while ignoring everyone else, that's going to be a huge problem for me. I am cool with parts of the game not being for me. I am not cool with not getting any new shit ever because they're too focused on a part of the game I am not interested in.

This.

If they cater to the "elite" minority whilst decrying the bulk of players as "casuals" then I have zero interest and await it's collapse in ~2 years.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 07, 2013, 07:49:15 AM
"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I'm out.
Oh come on. That to me is like saying yould never play COD or LOL or SC2 unless you think you can hit first place in the world rankings. How would you compare your chances of doing that versus PUGing a 40-man for gear?

I get it of course. Players knowing there's a glass ceiling is demotivating. But this has been a staple forever, and I personally have long since come to terms with what I'll never be able to do without considerable lifestyle changes I have no intention of ever making.


I think maybe I type poorly, and that my calm isn't coming across.  There is no hate (in me).  I've done the soloist/small group player in a raider game and, FOR ME, I'm aware that the biggest part of the game is something that I'll never participate in, but it will trickle down into other part of the game (pvp, big zone events, etc).  It will be the mote in my eye the entire time I'm playing.  The housing looks really good, but not good enough to put up with the annoyance it causes ME.

For those that it doesn't bother, cool for you, looks like a decent game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 07, 2013, 08:13:24 AM
WotLK was about right for me, personally, I didn't give a shit that the 25-man people had "better" gear than me, because I wasn't doing 25-mans, and (usually) the 10-mans were balanced for the people doing 10-mans. So I had my little progression track where I had new shit to do every patch, just like the people doing the "real" raids. They also made an effort to release new 5-mans, new dailies without going too overboard, etc.

That's really what it is for me, if they're going to derp it and focus on pooping out enough 40-man shit to keep the catasses happy while ignoring everyone else, that's going to be a huge problem for me. I am cool with parts of the game not being for me. I am not cool with not getting any new shit ever because they're too focused on a part of the game I am not interested in.

I am also so over PvP stats. I am extra special over "you have to do arenas to get the really good shit" thing. That's not as big a deal for me, though, if I want to PvP I have lowbie PvP in SWTOR and WvW in GW2 to entertain me. :P

Wildstar is going to have unique 40 man raids. unique 20 man raids. and solo instances that progress the story/lore of the game. 40 man raids are there for the uber challenge.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: murdoc on August 07, 2013, 10:27:03 AM
I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 07, 2013, 10:35:44 AM
Heh yeah. It's like not playing in a softball league because you'll never be able to play in the World Series.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 07, 2013, 10:48:08 AM
Heh yeah. It's like not playing in a softball league because you'll never be able to play in the World Series.

Not quite.  Some of us see it as a game where characters can progress 100 levels, but you can only get to levels 95-100 if you're willing to endure voice chat with 39 mouth breathers for several hours.  

MOAR DOTS!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 07, 2013, 11:04:26 AM
Ok I'll make another stupid analogy. That's like complaining about playing baseball because you don't like swinging a bat.  :awesome_for_real:

I never put up with playing with mouth breathers. In games that I can find fun people to play with, I have raided. When I can't find interesting people to play with, I stop playing the game. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Every time I have fun until I get to that point though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 07, 2013, 11:29:16 AM
My point is that raids aren't hard.  Organizing 40 competent gamers is hard.  The barrier to success in a raid lies less on the ability to overcome a challenge and more in ensuring you've invited 39 other people that won't fuck up at a critical moment.  If they want to introduce challenging content, it could as easily be 5 or 10 person scale.  This seems more a marketing ploy to attract large guilds than to challenge the player base.  


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 07, 2013, 11:33:20 AM
My point is that raids aren't hard.  Organizing 40 competent gamers is hard.  The barrier to success in a raid lies less on the ability to overcome a challenge and more in ensuring you've invited 39 other people that won't fuck up at a critical moment.  If they want to introduce challenging content, it could as easily be 5 or 10 person scale.  This seems more a marketing ploy to attract large guilds than to challenge the player base.  

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 07, 2013, 11:39:25 AM
That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either.  

Think of a relative scale rather than in absolutes.  Also consider why raids and finding people to do raids is a challenge.  Coordination and proper gear level are the typical barriers to success. That and development bugs.

There exists a difference between mechanical and personnel challenge. i.e. if 10% of your players are 'good' gamers, then amassing 40 of them will be a personnel challenge. In this case the greater hurdle may be a personnel challenge.  It's yet another way to gatekeep content (like the more common gearscore or level gate)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on August 07, 2013, 12:09:21 PM
Pandering to a hardcore segment in this gaming year isn't going to be very popular. There's a market for it, but it will cause problems they don't see. Spending time on 1% of your players' content is a bad business model.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 07, 2013, 12:20:35 PM
Meanwhile, here's the latest "State of the Beta" official update:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/wildstar_wednesday_state_of_the_beta_-_august_7th_2013.php

Important changes to some key game systems, first "phase" of beta (CBT 1-3 + Stress Tests) is over and see you later this year for the next phase while we overhaul the aforementioned systems.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: satael on August 07, 2013, 12:24:25 PM
I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

BiS was easy in GW2 (before ascended items) since it only took level 80 exotics and it was (very) easy to get them  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 07, 2013, 12:33:21 PM
That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either. 
Finding 39 people you can tolerate, who can be consistently available for 3 hours 1-3 days a week is not easy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 07, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
My point is that raids aren't hard.  Organizing 40 competent gamers is hard.  The barrier to success in a raid lies less on the ability to overcome a challenge and more in ensuring you've invited 39 other people that won't fuck up at a critical moment.  If they want to introduce challenging content, it could as easily be 5 or 10 person scale.  This seems more a marketing ploy to attract large guilds than to challenge the player base.  

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either.  

I think it mostly doesn't make sense because a raid can be as hard or as easy as it feels like being.  There are easy raids and hard raids and everything in between.  I mean... right?

I guess you could argue that no matter how hard a raid gets, the hardest part is organizing people sufficiently skilled to beat the raid (since as the raid gets harder, the organization also gets more complex, and your pool of players diminishes). But it seems disingenuous to go from that to saying that the raid itself isn't hard.  It is hard; that's why it makes it even harder to find people who can beat it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 07, 2013, 12:47:45 PM
I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

BiS was easy in GW2 (before ascended items) since it only took level 80 exotics and it was (very) easy to get them  :grin:

Even ascended items are easy now that you can get them with laurels and wvwvw badges.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 07, 2013, 12:50:22 PM
They're not easy in a time sense, they're annoyingly grindy. 30 days of dailies for one item, oh boy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on August 07, 2013, 02:24:19 PM
That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either. 
Finding 39 people you can tolerate, who can be consistently available for 3 hours 1-3 days a week is not easy.

Nobody who has ever run a 40 man raid in anything would ever say it's easy. It was a nightmare, with moments of levity. The actual content was about 25% of the overall time you spent running a raid that size. The rest was strats, groups, rosters, late slots, fill-ins, loot systems, overflow, waiting, afk, breaks, explanations, and drinking heavily to ignore the pain.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: murdoc on August 07, 2013, 02:50:16 PM
I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

BiS was easy in GW2 (before ascended items) since it only took level 80 exotics and it was (very) easy to get them  :grin:

Oh wait, that's true. I was decked out in all exotics when Ascended items hit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on August 07, 2013, 05:33:56 PM
Wildstar is going to have unique 40 man raids. unique 20 man raids. and solo instances that progress the story/lore of the game. 40 man raids are there for the uber challenge.

Sure, that's their plan. But that is one of those "I will believe it when I see it" things. It's not so much "what will be there at release" but "how will they spend their resources afterwards."


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Yoru on August 08, 2013, 04:33:11 AM
So, in the XP/quest progress changes, I'm split. I like the idea that they fill up the quest progress bar via XP earned, but I don't like that they're still tinkering around with splitting XP among ungrouped players based on damage contributed.

I've been very lightly dabbling with GW2 after getting a key last month, and I do like that you get full XP for simple participation in a fight, regardless of damage done. It's fair, it encourages cooperation, and the rules are simple to understand.

Either way, I'll still probably give this a shot, if only to see what "settler" content looks like. I'm expecting something like SEED's Bob The Builder grind.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 08, 2013, 08:25:12 AM
Quote
"I hate raiding, I'm out"
"All content should be solo, I'm out"
"Gear based pvp, I'm out"
"Pvp stats, I'm out"
"Subscription fees, I'm out"

You people should fucking KNOW better than to expect anything different from this of all games, no excuse.  So could we all stop acting like petulant 20-somethings when it comes to this 'cause the diku-mmo format is not changing anytime soon.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on August 08, 2013, 09:28:41 AM
It shouldn't be REGRESSING.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 08, 2013, 09:34:07 AM
Quote
"We've had this conversation before, I'm out of this thread"

You people should fucking KNOW that we've had this conversation before bitches.

Sincerely,
Internet Tough Guy, but secretly I care! xxoo, Lakov


Nothing new under the sun, I'm out of this spefic universe.

Despondently,
typhon

Nothing new in this fraction of the 10^500 multiverses, I'm out of this global universal cluster.

with Transcendant Euni,
Glibordax


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 08, 2013, 09:36:14 AM
So could we all stop acting like petulant 20-somethings when it comes to this 'fill-in-the-blank' is not changing anytime soon.

I need to copy this.  It could easily be used in 50 other threads here not related to MMOs.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 08, 2013, 09:42:11 AM
It shouldn't be REGRESSING.

One could argue this but considering wow has started hemorrhaging subs they have obviously gone too far the other direction.  Personally 40man raids is a silly idea and one I'm surprised they are going with.  The height of wow popularity was the 25man era but to expect the concept of raiding to be excluded is delusional and silly for anyone on these forums.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 08, 2013, 09:46:17 AM
What's wrong with 10 man raids?  Why is 25 magically better?  

Serious question.

SWTOR had 8 man raids and they weren't all that actively done, though that could be as much implementation as anything.  Rift had 10 and 25 man raids and very few people participated in the 25 man. 

Anything larger than 10 and you're outright admitting that you are catering to some small percentage of the playerbase.  Is it worth the resources? 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on August 08, 2013, 09:47:22 AM
You'll be answers about "mechanics" but for the most part that's bullshit. The mechanics of a raid fight all center around 5 or so major components, done differently in each one.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 08, 2013, 09:48:17 AM
 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 08, 2013, 09:49:12 AM
You'll be answers about "mechanics" but for the most part that's bullshit. The mechanics of a raid fight all center around 5 or so major components, done differently in each one.

I agree.  It's nothing more than the devs throwing a bone to the power guilds so they can laud something over the playerbase for some brief period of time.  

What is the point?  Seems like a monumental waste of resources. 

Make the game for the masses if you're shooting for mass appeal.  Playing both sides seems naive.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 08, 2013, 09:50:36 AM
You'll be answers about "mechanics" but for the most part that's bullshit. The mechanics of a raid fight all center around 5 or so major components, done differently in each one.

I agree.  It's nothing more than the devs throwing a bone to the power guilds so they can laud something over the playerbase for some brief period of time.  

What is the point?  Seems like a monumental waste of resources. 

Make the game for the masses if you're shooting for mass appeal.  Playing both sides seems naive.

 :heart: :heart: :heart:!!!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 08, 2013, 10:19:23 AM
 :facepalm:

I didn't say 25man raids were the most popular thing ever. I said that wow was most popular in the 25man era and specifically lich king which DID also have ten mans but 25 was still the high end for those who wanted it.  Fuck I'm not even making a judgement of which is better, just that at the time wow was at the top of it's game so of course if you are going to copy you should aim for that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 08, 2013, 10:28:07 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I looked at your assertion that raiding is what made the game popular, and lack of raiding is what kills games and immediately discarded it as clueless.

WoW is dying mostly because their recent updates have been uninspired, repetitious and bland.  The fact that it's been running for nine years isn't helping it.

But I have to say, in a mean spirited way, that I do enjoy your conclusions.

Edit: recently needed to be recent


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 08, 2013, 11:26:02 AM
I've always enjoyed how the niche of a niche set of a gamers (f13) have always thought they know for sure what made WoW's population decline (things they didn't like happened). That's not proof, no game stays mega popular forever and the context matters: the age of the playerbase, the age of the game, the competition, especially in terms of price.

Its entirely possible Blizz rightfully focused on the features and gameplay that people who wouldn't quit WoW out of boredom because they had played it 2, 4, 6 yrs already wanted. I'm skeptical as hell of this "if WoW had gone this direction they wouldn't have lost as many subs" assertion.

But let me say, you all turning on Wildstar is great because this game is boring as shit looking. Vanilla WoW in 2014! Oh joy exactly what we need. No shit this is regression but it was regression before they announced anything about 25 man raiding.

If War Plots are a really great system I'll be pissed because I really don't want there to be any reason to touch this bland ass game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 08, 2013, 12:15:39 PM
Where did I say it was raiding alone that made wow popular? Do you even read the comments before you start spewing shit onto your keyboard?

WOTLK was the height of wow's popularity, copy that.  That is not a hard statement to understand.

Saying that raiding is the sole reason to play mmo's is idiotic. To say raiding had NO part in wow's popularity would be similarly naive of not only wow but of the entire genre. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 08, 2013, 12:37:38 PM
WoW isn't' static.  Taking a point in time looses sight of everything that had led up to their peak in popularity during the WOTLK era.  Saying "I said that wow was most popular in the 25man era and specifically lich king which DID also have ten mans but 25 was still the high end for those who wanted it", IMPLIES that you thought there was causality between raiding and raid sizes and the high point in popularity as primary-cause

Whether you meant that or not.

I was responding to the implication.  Yes, I do actually think prior to typing.  If you had thought a bit more before posting, you might have added something like, "granted, the trend from more difficult/exclusive dungeons and raids toward more accessible dungeons/raids and the addition of other alternate systems of game play probably had significant impact on popularity as well, as shown by the dramatic decrease in popularity during the Cataclysm release"... but you didn't.

I'm not saying that raiding isn't popular.  I'm saying that loot is a core mechanism of these games - gaining levels and obtaining loot is desireable by every player who plays these games.  Choosing one type of gameplay to get the best loot is arbitrary and not needed.  Players will choose the type of gameplay that they find entertaining by themselves, and there is no need to reward certain types of gameplay over others - in fact it alienates players who don't enjoy that type of gameplay.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 08, 2013, 12:41:16 PM
Where did I say it was raiding alone that made wow popular? Do you even read the comments before you start spewing shit onto your keyboard?

If I was quoting you I would quote you.

Many posters here have for years claimed that WoW is losing subs because Blizz is going in the wrong direction. This being f13 the wrong direction is usually something to do with non solo content or content that requires more than 5 people it varies a little from poster to poster but the anger at raiding and catass behaviors and uber guilds is pretty common around here.

My point is WoW lost and will continue to lose subs because its an ancient game that looks and feels rather dated. Its competition is now legions of f2p games while it still costs a monthly sub. And almost nobody in the mmo sweet spot age-wise which is probably say 12-22 is still in that age range which means that many people move on for simple age/life reasons and are not replaced by new young players because WoW hasn't been the new hotness for kids in a long long time.

Yet ITT and others I see yourself and others equating the height of WoW's popularity had everything to do with what type of progression content they were releasing at that exact moment. I doubt that very much. A factor? Of course. But thinking we can gain insight into what gamers like because old WoW was more popular than new WoW seems a bit asinine.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 08, 2013, 12:42:30 PM
He was talking to me Hoax, you just got in the way.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 08, 2013, 12:43:53 PM
Then he's especially retarded, I posted an hour after you did and he posted 45min after me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 08, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
To Hoax: Some of us work, so sorry I was responding later... :roll:

To Typhon:  

Quote
Personally 40man raids is a silly idea and one I'm surprised they are going with.  The height of wow popularity was the 25man era

What I am inferring is that if carbine should copy anything it should be this time capsule in wow's history.  That you are taking this as some ringing endorsement for 25man raiding or that I am advocating raiding a the center of the game is insane.  I am simply using raid sizes in the era of wotlk because carbine seems to be going backwards to the beginning of wow when they had 40mans.

Of course wow was fluid and ever changing but that does not mean there wasn't a curve of popularity and making your game based on either end of the curve is foolish.  Again this is not just about raiding, stop being pedantic.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 08, 2013, 01:28:09 PM
What's wrong with 10 man raids?  Why is 25 magically better?  

Serious question.

SWTOR had 8 man raids and they weren't all that actively done, though that could be as much implementation as anything.  Rift had 10 and 25 man raids and very few people participated in the 25 man. 

Anything larger than 10 and you're outright admitting that you are catering to some small percentage of the playerbase.  Is it worth the resources? 


SWTOR has 8 and 16 actually. I think it matches your intuition in that the 8s are more popular.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 08, 2013, 01:39:39 PM
SWTOR has 8 and 16 actually. I think it matches your intuition in that the 8s are more popular.

Or my brain blocks the memory of anything > 10.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 08, 2013, 01:48:46 PM
Just for the record I never had a problem with raiding, in WoW or MMOs in general. I raided my ass off in TBC and especially WoTLK. I completed every normal mode raid in 10 and 25-man when its was relevant, and a good chunk of the heroic stuff I bothered with.

They lost me when they put a "you must be this good to even walk in the door" sign on it, and 80% of my friends weren't good enough. I don't like farmville, I don't live on solo content even though I appreciate it. I liked small group dungeon content, and I actually really liked raiding when it was hard enough to require some figuring out but wasn't a gigantic dickpunching festival. WotLK hit it right on the fucking head, even counting ToTC which wasn't so much stupidly easy as it was incredibly uninspired. TBC had Kara and Zul'Aman; the rest of the raids were shit. Cataclysm I quit after I couldn't get more than 2 bosses in with guild groups, cross-guild groups, pugs, or filling in on a guild run with another guild that was running their same crew that cleared 10man heroic ICC before the buffs even hit. LFR is nice that you don't feel locked out of ever even seeing the content or getting the loot, but running with 24 random shitbirds or generously, 20 random shitbirds if you queue with friends just isn't the same thing.

It's not the type of content, it's the barriers to entry that fucking get my goat. 40-man raids are mostly a bad idea because they're a mess visually and to organize, but personally I could have fun if they were tuned to be moderately hard for a mostly organized group that wanted to be able to actually hold a conversation during the fight instead of a 40-man Autism Convention. If I could have a cross-guild calendar, post a signup for a friday or saturday night, and just roll into the place with a group of 39 other people while drinking and shooting the shit on vent, maybe getting a couple bosses a night or wiping 4-6 times per non-farm boss (with major endbosses taking maybe 2-3 weeks of work before downing) before a clear I'd raid 40-mans in a second but that's not the reality.

tl;dr: 40-mans are trouble in terms of organization/design but the real issue to me is that they're pre-emptively saying the large group content is pretty much only for the aspergers crowd.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 08, 2013, 05:06:02 PM
Agree on the second point, but Cryptic not wanting a grind? I don't see it. The leveling curve was EQ-like arduous for a game that otherwise had very console-y like sensibilities. I still feel they were sitting on a goldmine if they could have just gotten out of the whole "this is a MMO and therefore we must have a guaranteed 15 months of subs" convention. Man, they coulda just put in tradeable costume recustomization players woulda RMT'd the shit out of years before inter-player "RMT" became corporate-sponsored "F2P". We'd all be talking about how CoH started it all instead of EQ1.

My only solace is that in another of the infinite timestreams in the multiverse, this did happen  :grin:

Ya you'd think they'd have woken up when the grind killed subs about 2 months in.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 08, 2013, 05:22:57 PM

I remember doing 80 person raids in EQ, I can't remember why that seemed a fun thing to be doing.

WoTLK is a good example, challenging raids especially if you went for the hardcore achievements but inclusive enough that lots of people raided and made some progress. But lots of the raiders want the main path of progression to be a narrow gate most can only look through to see the shinies arrayed there-in because that strokes their e-peen. Why developers consider going with that model is the mystery.

Content that only a small fraction of your player base will consume is a dumb investment.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 08, 2013, 05:23:40 PM

tl;dr: 40-mans are trouble in terms of organization/design but the real issue to me is that they're pre-emptively saying the large group content is pretty much only for the aspergers crowd.

I think WoW hit on the perfect concept with hard modes and the basic level being easy but they caved to the whiners on the forums who had never done hard modes but still complained the basic raids were too easy.

Plus one to kagaru on the content statement.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 09, 2013, 01:29:27 AM

The more interesting question is whether it's a good idea for the game as a whole. Having a raid progression sucks up a lot of cash and development time which means starving other parts of the game and probably needing a subscription fee to fund it.

If every game that has switched to F2P has had revenues go up why would this one require a subscription? I think you're reaching here as I hear they already announced it to be f2p.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 09, 2013, 08:52:37 AM
Last I saw they were very cagily commenting about a "hybrid" funding model. Have they actually come out and said it's f2p or was that a very complex way of saying it has a cash shop?

Most triple-A MMO's that have switched to f2p have had revenue go up because they were subscription games in a death spiral at that point. And I'm pretty sure suits are still looking at WoW and dreaming of that being them. To be the dominant raiding title you need pretty regular slabs of high quality raid content which needs a pretty decently sized team, and that's expensive.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 09, 2013, 10:12:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thought this fits in with the conversation and I agree with it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 09, 2013, 10:37:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thought this fits in with the conversation and I agree with it.
Oh good, another WoW commentary video from a British twat lamenting that bad people can beat stuff and therefore it doesn't mean anything to them or anyone, and stating that this is why WoW is losing subs like it's a fact.

Edit: My favorite quote is at the end.

"Is it better if a new player walks away saying, 'yeah I never got to that raid but I hear it was awesome', and instead says, 'Oh yeah the new raid? I did it, it was pretty alright I guess, had some cool special effects'. Is that better?"

Yeah, it actually is, cunt. Fucking autists. Jesus.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 09, 2013, 11:00:29 AM
I thought he was spot on. Maybe you're the twat?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 09, 2013, 11:07:26 AM
My assumption is that their rationale with the 40 man raiding is something like:

1) No other MMO since has matched WoW in being as much of a social phenomenon as WoW was
2) Raiding is very arguably the biggest "social" aspect of the game, in that it requires socializing in order to even happen
3) No other MMO since WoW has tried doing 40 man raids, which WoW had when it became a social phenomenon
4) Maybe the bigass raids had something to do with building a weirdly powerful community
5) Or maybe not, but who knows, fuck it, let's try it out.

Probably a massive oversimplification, but for all the shittiness of 40-man raids, I can't honestly say I'm sure they were what caused the server communities to feel so vibrant, especially in early WoW.  They still felt that way for years after the 40-mans stopped, of course, but maybe that was a lingering effect?  I doubt this is the case, but I'm also not certain.  It could be, and I think it's cool that someone is trying it again, because fuck, why not.  God knows nothing else seems to be working, and it isn't MY millions of dollars being invested.

 And yes, I've led a 40-man raid guild that had some fumbling successes in Naxx, and it was painful and I stopped doing anything but 10-man raiding after that.  No way I'm leading that shit again.  I'm still interested to see how it goes in this game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 09, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
That actually is an interesting experiment in that video, I thought.  It is sort of food for thought that you can literally do everything in the game while contributing nothing and actually having a purely negative effect on your party, without any noticeable consequence.

I mean, come on, I know it's easy to hate on elitism and such, and I tend to find many of the "pretty good" players abhorrent (notably, the really, really good ones tend to be far less assholic), but if you just forget that it's a multiplayer game for a moment, it does raise a few eyebrows that you don't really have any positive or negative consequences for playing poorly or fantastically.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 09, 2013, 11:36:35 AM
I thought he was spot on. Maybe you're the twat?
Except there's no actual proof offered that this is what is somehow wrong with WoW? Or that there's even something wrong with a really easy raid mode being completable with complete dead weight, when lots of raid groups did just that in Vanilla, TBC, and WoTLK?

That he actually said that it's not good a bad casual player can say, "Hey, I tried the latest raid [in LFR] it was pretty alright"?

All he proved is that if you really want to try and be worthless in WoW while completing the version of content meant for not good players, you could? Wow, what a fucking shocking revelation. Surely, everyone would come rushing back if we only put a stop to that.

Ahhhh, whatever. This isn't about Wildstar. I just don't know if it's a good idea to openly say you're going to focus dev time on making assets/content for a very small minority of your player population, given you kinda need this thing to make money and NCSoft doesn't have a great history of treating underperforming games well.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 09, 2013, 11:46:41 AM
I mean, you're definitely right that he has no proof of cause and effect with respect to subs, for sure.  But I think if you just look at the experiment as a game design issue, and forget that it's even a multiplayer game, it is sort of interesting to think about.  Presumably games should reward or punish quality of play to SOME extent.

And yes, handwaving away the multiplayer part IS cheating a bit, since it is definitely harder to reward individual quality of play in a coop enviornment, especially a large-scale coop environment (which is why I think the 5-man experiment is probably the most significant part of the experiment).  It's still interesting to think about.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 09, 2013, 11:47:13 AM
Ahhhh, whatever. This isn't about Wildstar. I just don't know if it's a good idea to openly say you're going to focus dev time on making assets/content for a very small minority of your player population, given you kinda need this thing to make money and NCSoft doesn't have a great history of treating underperforming games well.

This ^^^  Paelos also said this a few pages back.  It's all about allocation of resources and focus on 40-man raids isn't a good use of resources, particularly when you brag about how hardcore they're going to be.  

My decision to play the game or not won't be made based on there being raids.  I just don't understand the time devoted to them when obviously only a few consumers will ever really enjoy their time in them.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 09, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
Honestly I thought the exercise pointed out why it would be much easier to make hard but fair five mans then hard but fair 25 or 40 mans.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 09, 2013, 12:25:18 PM
Any initial resource allocation to 40-mans will likely be minimal at best, just like WoW at release.  What'd we have then, Ony? (if you can even call that a raid really)  IF Wildstar shows signs of doing well, THEN the main dev. team gets to keep their jobs and pop more raids.  This is the way it'd seem to work to me.  Otherwise, you end up with half-assed/rushed/untested attempts at quality raid levels at release.

'Twer me, and I give this advice free of charge; I'd make the 40-mans more interactive with the server.  Allow a raid group to queue for the instance and publicize it to the server in some way; not merely through an LFD tool, but something flashier.  This will provide a bit more of a carrot whilst letting people know your group is gonna try for a clear.  If you need slots filled, people will apply to fill them; assuming you set them as publicly available.

It's not reinventing the fuckin wheel here.  Large scale FPS games have done it that way since Joint Ops.  MMOs dont have to be special snowflakes in those regards even when purely PvE.  And seriously, there's absolutely no reason to complain against making 40-mans a feature in a game; unless your game sux so hard that people really just don't want to eat your shitty content.  Protip: put a tad more effort into making 40-mans accessible.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on August 09, 2013, 01:48:31 PM
At release, Wow didn't do much for patches in terms of raid stuff. You had Onyxia and you had MC. That's all people needed because for the most part they were completely cockblocked by resistance gear.

HOWEVER, after about 8 months, they started rolling out a bunch of raiding content.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on August 09, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
All I know is that in terms of difficulty, Wrath had the most accessible content and subs were at an all time high.  Then Cataclysm came around with its more difficult content and subs dropped.  It's almost like the 'hardcore' players account for less subs than the casual players.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 09, 2013, 03:26:26 PM
It's almost like the 'hardcore' players account for less subs than the casual players.

Fortunately, they compensate by being the loudest on the forums.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 09, 2013, 03:27:38 PM
All I know is that in terms of difficulty, Wrath had the most accessible content and subs were at an all time high.  Then Cataclysm came around with its more difficult content and subs dropped.  It's almost like the 'hardcore' players account for less subs than the casual players.

I think it's hard to draw an absolute correlation there, a lot of things factor into their sub numbers, like when they launched in what market and what other games came out when, etc. Other than "people didn't like Cataclysm in general" I'm not sure there are any really safe conclusions to draw about their content model just based on that one big number.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 09, 2013, 03:50:07 PM
Fits my model of how players are incredibly bad at games quite nicely  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on August 09, 2013, 04:03:12 PM
All I know is that in terms of difficulty, Wrath had the most accessible content and subs were at an all time high.  Then Cataclysm came around with its more difficult content and subs dropped.  It's almost like the 'hardcore' players account for less subs than the casual players.

I think it's hard to draw an absolute correlation there, a lot of things factor into their sub numbers, like when they launched in what market and what other games came out when, etc. Other than "people didn't like Cataclysm in general" I'm not sure there are any really safe conclusions to draw about their content model just based on that one big number.

You've said that before, and were we on some sort of steering committee about the fate of the game and making billion dollar direction decisions, I'd agree. Since it's an internet forum, I feel pretty safe in drawing the conclusion that people liked Wrath because they felt included, progressing, and they were killing stuff they cared about.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 09, 2013, 04:09:29 PM
At some point you just have to start blaming the game being super old rather than design decisions.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 09, 2013, 04:27:28 PM
Also, as a counterpoint, Pandaria is far more accessible in terms of raid content than Wrath was (see LFR and the experiment in that video), and subs are falling.

(Yes, the game is also old as hell, which is probably the big cause here)

I think it really is a shame not to actually listen to the problem illustrated in that video.  There are a number of solutions that go in different directions; it doesn't just mean that the solution is harder and less accessible raids.  Like someone was getting at earlier, you can also conclude from that that larger raids aren't a good idea if you want a game where the average person can see all the content, because it necessitates them being so easy as to not even provide any feedback to the player.  Ignore the solution he's proposing and focus on the problem he's illustrating, and I think it's really, really hard to argue that it isn't a broken system.

Basically, I think it illustrates that WoW is trying to do two things at once and thus failing at both of them.  Obviously the narrator wants one of those two things, and you might disagree with his choice, but I think he's right that trying to do both is worse all around than choosing one way or the other.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 09, 2013, 04:44:34 PM
Pandaria looks lovely even for a dated games. It's just so TEDIOUS.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on August 09, 2013, 04:58:19 PM
I think it's hard to draw an absolute correlation there, a lot of things factor into their sub numbers, like when they launched in what market and what other games came out when, etc. Other than "people didn't like Cataclysm in general" I'm not sure there are any really safe conclusions to draw about their content model just based on that one big number.

Rarely is there only one reason why a game loses subs.  I know I had a laundry list of things I didn't like about Cataclysm.  But the discussion had somehow turned to the idea that making content less accessible to the majority of players was somehow good for a game, which is just silly.  I still submit that ratcheting up the difficulty from Wrath to Cataclysm contributed to the loss of subs.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 09, 2013, 07:51:45 PM
If you ask me they are going with the 40-man raid as their pinnacle content to go easy on the type of player who is crying about 40-man raids. A super hardcore highest difficulty raid that is designed around 5, 10 or 20 players would lock out people because they just aren't good enough at playing the game.

So if you are Carbine and you've decided that you need to have content that most people can't beat because its good for the health of your playerbase/server communities/whatever you have a choice. You can gateway it the classical MMO way where player skill doesn't matter much just time commitment and willingness to put up with the hurdles of organization and listening to directions etc. Or you could gateway it such that only people who can optimize their dps/healing/tanking and who are playing optimal class/skill combos can beat it.

I would bet a shitton of money that the wailing would be much louder once people actually were playing the game and got to the content if they went the second route and people were finding out that just having the gear and having the free time wasn't enough to get best in slot gear.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 09, 2013, 08:17:33 PM
I know you guys like to look at things in a black and white view and then really narrow down into the micro of the argument.

Here's what the devs have said about Wildstar's "elder" game.

1) 40 Man Raids
2) 20 Man Raids
3) Solo instances that tell the story and lore
4) PVP - battlegrounds, arenas, warplots
5) Heroic Dungeons

Now what you don't seem to remember, forget reading, or never knew is that Carbine plans on nerfing raids as they get older so they become more accessible over time. So if you're the type that things they deserve to see everything just because, even if you're a bad player, then you will get that with Wildstar, you just have to wait a while.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 09, 2013, 09:13:42 PM
you just have to wait a while.

Whhhhhaaat...I want it now. :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 09, 2013, 09:16:12 PM
So if you're the type that things they deserve to see everything just because, even if you're a bad player, then you will get that with Wildstar, you just have to wait a while.

I deserve to see it because I'm paying the same fucking amount of money for a subscription and if the want to keep getting my money they damn well better spend it developing stuff for me. The days when these games are going to have a subscription base big enough to support development of stuff for the l33t 5% of players who have enough nolife to catass all day in a game are over. There's to many free, niche options for people to go do. That's another reason WoW subs are dropping like a rock. People don't have to put up with their shitty, stupid priorities and design beliefs anymore. So they're going elsewhere.

Also, is telling your smug condescending ass to choke to death on my cock too much of a personal insult to write here?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 09, 2013, 09:21:48 PM
I don't know why everyone has such a hard on for 40 man raids.  They're a pain in the ass to organize and getting people to do what you want is like herding cats.  Just because WoW did it back in the day doesn't mean anyone has to do it ever again.  I don't recall anyone saying "40 man raids, THAT'S why I started playing WoW".  They weren't responsible for the success of WoW.  At all.  People played WoW at release because it was simply better than everything else and didn't kick you in the nuts nearly as much as its competitors like EQ and UO.  


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 09, 2013, 09:23:10 PM


Also, is telling your smug condescending ass to choke to death on my cock too much of a personal insult to write here?

Angry Bob indeed. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 09, 2013, 09:54:04 PM


I deserve to see it

The fuck you do.  I pay the same damn $60 for dark souls that other people did, it does not somehow magically entitle me to an easier game if my skills do not match others.


Look I'm all for accessible raids but your money entitles you to the same thing it entitles everyone else to, a chance to play the game.  If you do not LIKE the game or do not have the time nor skill to play as others do well then maybe it's not the game for you.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on August 09, 2013, 10:02:34 PM
So, are these solo instances the same story you'd be getting from the raids?


The fuck you do.  I pay the same damn $60 for dark souls that other people did, it does not somehow magically entitle me to an easier game if my skills do not match others.


Ohh, please.  Raiding doesn't share the same sort of skill curve (or even type) as Dark Souls.  Let's not pretend you're Billy Badass because you've got a lack of commitments at 8-10pm, 4 nights a week.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 09, 2013, 10:50:04 PM


I deserve to see it

The fuck you do.  I pay the same damn $60 for dark souls that other people did, it does not somehow magically entitle me to an easier game if my skills do not match others.


Look I'm all for accessible raids but your money entitles you to the same thing it entitles everyone else to, a chance to play the game.  If you do not LIKE the game or do not have the time nor skill to play as others do well then maybe it's not the game for you.

Why are you intentionally misrepresenting what I've been saying. I don't want or need an easier game. I want a game I don't have to raid, or even group to see it. Raidfags seem to think that solo play is easier. It's not, it's much harder. We all know it's harder. There's no one else to save you from your own suck. This shit is easier the more people you bring along. The difficulty with raiding isn't the game, it's about managing people most of the time. I did that more than enough at work. Arranging 2 hours with a group of people to focus on common goals and make shit happen isn't fun. It's not a game. It's a fucking department meeting. I don't want to deal with the shit. I want to log on and kill internet dragons. Or internet orcs. Whatever.

Also, your Dark Souls analogy blows shit. Do you need to arrange time to play it with 4 other people or pick a different game? If the answer is yes, then you are allowed to post again. Do you feel that the game should cost the same for you if that when you don't play with 4 other people you're limited to killing the same monster over and over again, or whatever the fuck you do in Dark Souls?  if the answer is no, then you lose and must admit that solo play is not only not easier, it's so hardcore elite that anyone not wanting all content available to solo players is a shriveled turd of a being who actually thinks this shit matters to anyone but them rather than just being something to do an hour or two a night.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 09, 2013, 10:55:03 PM
My analogy was fine, I do not buy games knowing what they are about and expecting them to change just because I gave them money.  I don't presume to know what it is you want but it is not an MMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 09, 2013, 11:01:28 PM
I'm in the camp of "doing 40 man raids aren't difficult but getting 40 players to do the same thing, and savvy enough to minmax when not prompted, is 99.99% of the difficulty". Which is fine, a game is allowed to say fuck you if you can't do that. Raiding was a throw back to the stuff WoW smoothed over during its release. Before WoW leveling was a group activity, classes weren't expected to be self reliant, and you were expected to organize on some level. WoW made solo'ing the "thing" but ultimately went back to the basic tenants of massive online gaming as we understood back than, i.e do big shit with lots of people. Maybe if WoW conditioned its playerbase to group up and be semi-competent at it, they would have a better rate of players willing to do the 40 man content. Or maybe players only like playing with their 2-3 friends at most and there is nothing massive about mmo's to the average player. Maybe they never wanted to do the massive part which is why WoW was initially so popular compared to the iterations of mmo's at the time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 09, 2013, 11:53:05 PM
My analogy was fine, I do not buy games knowing what they are about and expecting them to change just because I gave them money.  I don't presume to know what it is you want but it is not an MMO.
Your analogy was a complete trainwreck and not only did it not support what you said, it supported me. I'm haven't given Wildstar any money, and I won't if there's a single thing available via raids that isn't available to me soloing as a reskinned item. Giving money to games in the past doesn't really count as their was no other choice available or more often game companies just flat out lied about how solo friendly a game was. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of free to play alternatives that are close enough to what i want. Why would I switch to another game that not only offers me lees of what i want and charges a monthly fee to do it? The genre has changed and Wildstar needs to reexamine their design and adjust to playerbase preferences. That's why I expect them to change or I won't give them money at all.


Or maybe players only like playing with their 2-3 friends at most and there is nothing massive about mmo's to the average player.

Pretty much this, or at least that is my semi-informed belief. Which is pretty much what I'm looking for. It's not like it's a giant mystery why the content becomes more utilized the smaller that groups become. Raid fans like to say it's because that there are too many people who don't want to have to "learn the game", but really it's that people with shit to do in real life don't want to be bothered with the amount of time it takes to form and maintain solid relationships with people they'll never deal with outside a game. The internet got old and so did the novelty of "online only" friends. When this genre first started, the internet was brand new for most people and they were dazzled by it. The people playing the games had a similar background and the populations were much smaller. SO people were a lot more likely to not be complete pieces of shit. Well, now that everyone under the age of 75 is on the internet, we're back to almost everyone acting like assgoblins whenever they can get away with it. People don't want to deal with it during their leisure time. Sorry raid guys, the days of content being for more than a dozen people is over and it isn't coming back. The fact that Wildstar is spending time on it is a pretty huge red flag.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 10, 2013, 12:16:12 AM
So if you're the type that things they deserve to see everything just because, even if you're a bad player, then you will get that with Wildstar, you just have to wait a while.

I deserve to see it because I'm paying the same fucking amount of money for a subscription and if the want to keep getting my money they damn well better spend it developing stuff for me. T

Who says they aren't developing shit for you? Maybe you didn't read shit in my post? dumbfuck Poor baby can't play in one little zone and you want to kill yourself. Shame.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 10, 2013, 12:17:30 AM
So, are these solo instances the same story you'd be getting from the raids?


Raids aren't part of the story line apparently.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 10, 2013, 06:24:06 AM
Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 10, 2013, 08:18:54 AM
My analogy was fine, I do not buy games knowing what they are about and expecting them to change just because I gave them money.  I don't presume to know what it is you want but it is not an MMO.
Your analogy was a complete trainwreck and not only did it not support what you said, it supported me. I'm haven't given Wildstar any money, and I won't if there's a single thing available via raids that isn't available to me soloing as a reskinned item. Giving money to games in the past doesn't really count as their was no other choice available or more often game companies just flat out lied about how solo friendly a game was. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of free to play alternatives that are close enough to what i want. Why would I switch to another game that not only offers me lees of what i want and charges a monthly fee to do it? The genre has changed and Wildstar needs to reexamine their design and adjust to playerbase preferences. That's why I expect them to change or I won't give them money at all.


Or maybe players only like playing with their 2-3 friends at most and there is nothing massive about mmo's to the average player.

Pretty much this, or at least that is my semi-informed belief. Which is pretty much what I'm looking for. It's not like it's a giant mystery why the content becomes more utilized the smaller that groups become. Raid fans like to say it's because that there are too many people who don't want to have to "learn the game", but really it's that people with shit to do in real life don't want to be bothered with the amount of time it takes to form and maintain solid relationships with people they'll never deal with outside a game. The internet got old and so did the novelty of "online only" friends. When this genre first started, the internet was brand new for most people and they were dazzled by it. The people playing the games had a similar background and the populations were much smaller. SO people were a lot more likely to not be complete pieces of shit. Well, now that everyone under the age of 75 is on the internet, we're back to almost everyone acting like assgoblins whenever they can get away with it. People don't want to deal with it during their leisure time. Sorry raid guys, the days of content being for more than a dozen people is over and it isn't coming back. The fact that Wildstar is spending time on it is a pretty huge red flag.

Raids only become an issue when the game is balanced around said encounter. It'll be like "If you only make the top 1000 in pvp on your server only than can you get the easy mode gear that solo's all pve content with dazzling lights of rainbow unicorns." A game deciding, like games have been deciding for years before the shitty sequel era of today, that "you can only be this tall to ride this ride" is perfectly fine. I mean sure games who did this back than relied entirely on a skill ceiling and I'm personally more willing to meet that than say whats required to drag 39 people to an encounter, but its perfectly valid even if I personally have no patience for it.

Though to be honest the general "ceilings" in mmo's are rather shitty. Time and Resources Ceiling is something I generally want to see die. But since that generally is what allows most bad gamers to feel successful in mmo's I generally don't see it dying anytime soon.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 10, 2013, 09:13:27 AM
I'm in the "2 or 3 friends consistently" category.  5 or 6 tops, and never more than a night every two to three weeks.  Would love to be able to do everything with that 2 to 3 core.  Will accept not being able to do everything as long as the core gameplay, "getting levels and loot" is not segregated upon an idea that "What will make our game sticky?!  BIG GROUPS OF FOLKS GETTING TO KNOW AND LOVE EACHOTHERBANDOFBROTHERS EQUALS MONEYHATS!  How do we make bigs groups?  FORCE EM TO PLAY BIG CONTENT!".

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them. 

Best-case, I'm ambivalent.  Usual case is that the game caters to these folks, and these folks include a subset who are broken and will use that catering in any way possible to be assholes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 10, 2013, 10:11:17 AM
I really believe that some of you people shouldn't be allowed to touch an mmo. However, somebody needs to make an epic as fuck single player, with coop, subscription game to get some of you to shut the fuck up.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 10, 2013, 10:56:57 AM
I really believe that some of you people shouldn't be allowed to touch an mmo. However, somebody needs to make an epic as fuck single player, with coop, subscription game to get some of you to shut the fuck up.

Dear god this. Feels like I've been saying it for 8 years.

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them.

I think its the very essence of virtual worlds. Someone passing by wearing crazy armor with some massive weapon you've never seen riding something you don't know where it came from. Hearing people discuss something happening on the server between the most badass pvp'ers or pvp guilds or talking about the guy running the economy or the uber guild competing for world firsts. All of those things are part of the experience. The game is bigger than you. Its the only reason to put up with the inferior gameplay that such large games offer.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on August 10, 2013, 01:09:39 PM
Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them.

I think its the very essence of virtual worlds. Someone passing by wearing crazy armor with some massive weapon you've never seen riding something you don't know where it came from. Hearing people discuss something happening on the server between the most badass pvp'ers or pvp guilds or talking about the guy running the economy or the uber guild competing for world firsts. All of those things are part of the experience. The game is bigger than you. Its the only reason to put up with the inferior gameplay that such large games offer.

Yes, I agree. Count me in. And it is because I cannot do it that the world feels alive and rich and mysterious and gives me the idea that there's a lot going on out there that exists beside me (which is why I am playing a MMO and not another single player). Not to mention that, you know, if I really wanted, I could actually do it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 10, 2013, 01:29:33 PM
I agree, but games should stop making you the hero of the story.  This isn't a single player game, i want to be a random adventurer like i was in EQ, or part of an army like in SB.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 10, 2013, 02:32:27 PM
I stopped paying attention to lore and story in mmorpgs a very long time ago.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 10, 2013, 03:09:09 PM
I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  I get why it would be something one would get angry about back in the day, when every game did it and it was frustrating that there was this new genre of games out there that seemed ALMOST perfect for you, but not quite because they continuously demanded this style of play that you hated and seemed extraneous to you.

Now every game pretty much has abandoned the idea of inaccessible raids.  Why is it such a rage-inducing thing if one game kinda tries it again, at least briefly, at launch?  I get thinking that it's probably not a great decision, and I probably lean slightly toward the "it's probably not going to work" way of thinking, but surely it's kind of nice to see someone going in an ever-so-slightly different direction than everyone else in the world?  And I mean, shit, we're talking EVER-so-slightly here.  These goddamn games are all practically the same thing.

Edit:  Also, because it doesn't deserve it's own post but I just can't help saying it... God, fuck this "elder game" terminology.  Jesus.  Fuck.  At least they aren't calling levels "seasons."

Yes, I see the irony in raging about something so trivial in the very same post I am expressing confusion about other people's rage about something far less trivial.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 10, 2013, 03:13:07 PM
I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  I get why it would be something one would get angry about back in the day, when every game did it and it was frustrating that there was this new genre of games out there that seemed ALMOST perfect for you, but not quite because they continuously demanded this style of play that you hated and seemed extraneous to you.

Now every game pretty much has abandoned the idea of inaccessible raids.  Why is it such a rage-inducing thing if one game kinda tries it again, at least briefly, at launch?  I get thinking that it's probably not a great decision, and I probably lean slightly toward the "it's probably not going to work" way of thinking, but surely it's kind of nice to see someone going in an ever-so-slightly different direction than everyone else in the world?  And I mean, shit, we're talking EVER-so-slightly here.  These goddamn games are all practically the same thing.

They get angry because it is a massive commitment of resources that is geared towards the smallest segment of the population.  They get angry because all that effort should be expended on content that everyone can enjoy. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 10, 2013, 03:16:07 PM
For every game ever made?  They always have to have the same strategy and be tailored to the same people?  Again, that would make sense if this was still the status quo.  I was one of those people back then.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 10, 2013, 03:23:24 PM
I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  I get why it would be something one would get angry about back in the day, when every game did it and it was frustrating that there was this new genre of games out there that seemed ALMOST perfect for you, but not quite because they continuously demanded this style of play that you hated and seemed extraneous to you.

Now every game pretty much has abandoned the idea of inaccessible raids.  Why is it such a rage-inducing thing if one game kinda tries it again, at least briefly, at launch?  I get thinking that it's probably not a great decision, and I probably lean slightly toward the "it's probably not going to work" way of thinking, but surely it's kind of nice to see someone going in an ever-so-slightly different direction than everyone else in the world?  And I mean, shit, we're talking EVER-so-slightly here.  These goddamn games are all practically the same thing.

They get angry because it is a massive commitment of resources that is geared towards the smallest segment of the population.  They get angry because all that effort should be expended on content that everyone can enjoy. 

I think that is a faulty argument. Like making a collection of board games but than, instead of making a new board game, you figure out how to add more rules to monopoly. Sure sounds cool, but rarely does it add "fun".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 10, 2013, 03:50:57 PM
I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  [snip]

Raiding accesbility doesn't bother me at all.  I know that I won't be involved in it.  If I run out of content/get bored I'll stop playing.  I don't care why the dev is slow, I have stopped being invested in games.

I care about leveling and loot.  Best loot only available via raiding makes me not interested in the game.  It doesn't make me angry.

Usually I leave a thread when I've lost interest in a game, to allow those interested in the game to share their common interest without me pissing all over it.  I haven't left because I find the conversation about what folks like/don't like about MMOs interesting, as well as the "what raiding is/should be, how hard should it be, what should the rewards be" interesting.  It seems to me that a few of you in the pro-40-man + BIS camp have complained in the past about PvP being ruined by folks just having better gear, but maybe I'm not remembering properly.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on August 10, 2013, 03:52:38 PM
Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them. 


You're a known crazy person though  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 10, 2013, 08:50:25 PM
You're a known crazy person though  :why_so_serious:

Pretty sure that aptly describes every single person on this forum.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on August 10, 2013, 08:57:09 PM
There's a competitive ladder system for craziness.  You have to be a mod or be grouped with a mod to see it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 10, 2013, 09:17:59 PM
There's a competitive ladder system for craziness.  You have to be a mod or be grouped with a mod to see it.

Fuck forced grouping, I'm going to post at something awful.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 10, 2013, 09:28:08 PM



You're a known crazy person though  :why_so_serious:


I considered donating enough money to grief title myself "Hates Fun"  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 10, 2013, 09:57:13 PM
Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them. 

Nope.  You're not the only one.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 10, 2013, 10:21:28 PM
Me playing games casually these days, I know that I can't do some content, but I really love reading/watching/following people who do have time for it. If I can jump into a game and do everything with my casual playing ass these days, the game is not worth playing to me because it's probably really simple and shitty.

Look at WOW in that video. Why would I want to bother doing that?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 10, 2013, 10:23:42 PM
Sounds to me like the problem is with you then if you need casual access to content cut off in order to want to do it at higher difficulties.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 10, 2013, 10:24:49 PM
I care about leveling and loot.  Best loot only available via raiding makes me not interested in the game.  It doesn't make me angry.

Oh, I totally get that.  I wasn't talking about you, and I thought you made a good point earlier that the "LFR raiding is trivially easy" experiment could be interpreted as arguing even more strongly for smaller group content.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 10, 2013, 11:03:12 PM
Sounds to me like the problem is with you then if you need casual access to content cut off in order to want to do it at higher difficulties.

Missed the point completely, not surprisingly. Here's the deal. I don't get any enjoyment out of easy mode games. If I can beat a game on easy mode, I very rarely have any motivation to do it on a more difficulty setting. I find repeating content boring for the most part. I consider "beating" a raid by getting all the loot I want. If there is another set of just a bit better gear on harder mode, to me that's stupid.

It trickles down to the rest of the game. it's all just boring, bland and easy. Might as well be playing a flash game somewhere.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 10, 2013, 11:04:28 PM
I care about leveling and loot.  Best loot only available via raiding makes me not interested in the game.  It doesn't make me angry.

Oh, I totally get that.  I wasn't talking about you, and I thought you made a good point earlier that the "LFR raiding is trivially easy" experiment could be interpreted as arguing even more strongly for smaller group content.

I would love to see a game where everything is 5 man content and give you the option to do it with 4 bot hirlings. Just make it progressively more difficult. I like progression.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 10, 2013, 11:07:17 PM
Sounds to me like the problem is with you then if you need casual access to content cut off in order to want to do it at higher difficulties.

Missed the point completely, not surprisingly. Here's the deal. I don't get any enjoyment out of easy mode games. If I can beat a game on easy mode, I very rarely have any motivation to do it on a more difficulty setting. I find repeating content boring for the most part. I consider "beating" a raid by getting all the loot I want. If there is another set of just a bit better gear on harder mode, to me that's stupid.

It trickles down to the rest of the game. it's all just boring, bland and easy. Might as well be playing a flash game somewhere.
Then don't play it on easy mode and go straight to normal/hard? I mean, you get to decide what content you want to do right?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 11, 2013, 10:02:19 AM
Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them.  

It's fascinating, but I don't need to be playing the game to follow stuff I'm ineligible for, which also means I'm not paying. It's pretty much what I read this forum for, being able to hear about events like massive Eve battles, catass raiders and feral communities like Salem without having to invest that much (often not very fun) time.

I can believe there are some people who believe they'll be titan pilots, hardcore raiders or PvP badasses "one day" and thus keep playing, but I suspect the increased number of games available means people not having fun will with the gameplay they have access to will just silently vanish.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 11, 2013, 01:20:04 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkpVudbcSnXwzjxL7XwJohKR15JA62JTeL2NejDqGwz2VrcELw)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 11, 2013, 09:36:29 PM
People spend untold hours watching other peoples LOL matches. I'm not saying it's right but disposable time ain't exactly rare.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 11, 2013, 09:49:20 PM

Not sure that's a direct equivalent, is an LoL player locked out of substantial content until they've proven they're hard-core? Do they get lesser versions of the same characters and gear?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 11, 2013, 09:50:15 PM
It was always pulling teeth to get people to watch strategy videos when I ran my WoW guild, and they were all in the 10-15 minute range. Usually I'd just watch it and do my best to explain the strat on Ventrilo; only after we had wiped to the same mechanic a few times would we take a break mid-raid for everyone to watch the video.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 11, 2013, 10:34:17 PM
While I don't think watching videos should be a bar to set for content, it's not as though people don't waste time on equally stupid stuff that's all I'm saying here.


If you are super into a raiding game and watching a 15min fight video helps more power to you.  Personally I never watched or studied ANY encounter in my hardcore days because the truth was it's never a one shot and wow mechanics were never so hard for dps that I didn't figure it out by the second round.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 12, 2013, 02:12:05 AM
The way I look at the MMO group vs solo argument is that I'm like Wolverine.  Most of the time I prefer to do stuff on my own because, in the context of the game, I'm pretty bad ass on my own.  However, when I need to tackle something more difficult, thats when I go with the rest of the X-Men.  Except for Cyclops.  Fuck that guy.  He's always trying to mow my lawn with Jean Grey.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 12, 2013, 08:16:00 AM
Cool story bub.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 12, 2013, 08:54:46 AM
While I don't think watching videos should be a bar to set for content, it's not as though people don't waste time on equally stupid stuff that's all I'm saying here.


If you are super into a raiding game and watching a 15min fight video helps more power to you.  Personally I never watched or studied ANY encounter in my hardcore days because the truth was it's never a one shot and wow mechanics were never so hard for dps that I didn't figure it out by the second round.

People will always watch videos.  These games are very reward oriented.  If watching videos helps people get their reward with less effort, they will.  It is as simple as that.  It is the same reason people use 3rd party sites to help them get through quests super quickly. 

Heck, that's one of the reasons I like the idea of MMOs that are less progression oriented and focus more on world development. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on August 12, 2013, 09:27:06 AM
I agree, but games should stop making you the hero of the story.  This isn't a single player game, i want to be a random adventurer like i was in EQ, or part of an army like in SB.

Me too but I guess that, in the last 10 years, the market tried to (rightfully, from a business perspective, of course) exploit the larger amount of MMO population that want to gain teh phat lewt, and engage in all the "mini activities" that nowadays form a MMO.

Personally, even after all these years and failed/not successful enough projects, I'm still in the "social experiment" - sandbox party where I'm perfectly fine to be Mr. Nobody while exploring and engaging in roleplaying activities with a small portion of the population (but yeah, I'll keep playing DIKUs as well).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sky on August 12, 2013, 10:33:07 AM
The way I look at the MMO group vs solo argument is that I'm like Wolverine.  Most of the time I prefer to do stuff on my own because, in the context of the game, I'm pretty bad ass on my own.  However, when I need to tackle something more difficult, thats when I go with the rest of the X-Men.  Except for Cyclops.  Fuck that guy.  He's always trying to mow my lawn with Jean Grey.
I liked in Giant Sized X-Men 2 when Professor X made everyone sit and watch videos on how to avoid Magneto's area effect and deal with a Juggernaut add.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 10:37:26 AM

Not sure that's a direct equivalent, is an LoL player locked out of substantial content until they've proven they're hard-core? Do they get lesser versions of the same characters and gear?


MMOs don't lock you out of content, and raids are not substantial amounts of content either.

MMOs, with subs, give you equal access to everything. If you aren't good enough to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough time to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough friends to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't like playing with X amount of players, that's on you.

Every game doesn't need to cater to you. If you want a game where you can do everything in the game, beat all the bosses and see everything by literally doing nothing, you have World of Warcraft.

Some games want specific bosses to be hard. So, if you happen to beat the Badass Dragon they want that experience and challenge to be uniform across the game. So when you tell a friend what you did, he doesn't go did you beat it in LFR? Normal? Heroic? Does he even care about that distinction? Does anyone care at that point when content is so diluted?

Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. It's the same thing when solo players gnash their teeth when people tell them to play a single player game instead. Solo players love playing MMORPGs because they like spending time in a world where they come across other players and they enjoy the experience of playing within a shared environment regardless of their direct interaction with other players. So that shared experience matters to them. In reverse, solo or casual players tell raiders, whats wrong with just doing the same raid but just harder? You get your challenge and I get to do the raid too in super easy mode.

Well the problem here is that raiders like the challenges of a difficult raid, and they also like showing off the shared acknowledgement that they completed it. When Mr Raider kills Bad Ass Dragon and tells a buddy what he did and that buddy can say, yeah I killed him to last week! It kind of dilutes the challenge. Raiders like the shared experience of that.

Now lets bring in League of Legends. They have managed to give Bronze level players the same content as Diamond players yet Riot has been able to give higher ranked players a clear distinction. A diamond level play is nearly a completely different game than a bronze level game.

If MMORPGs can somehow show off this distinction you can solve the problem of difficulties. The huge difference is that you can easily recognize skilled gameplay in a game like League whereas watching 20-40 people raid in any difficulty is mostly the same. People moving to avoid fire and spamming abilities. Of course the game-type is so different, it's probably impossible.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 12, 2013, 11:56:25 AM
Stuff

The problem with what you said is that none of what you said "dilutes" the challenge to you. If you and your raid want to do encounter on whatever difficulty level, the challenge to you in doing it is that same regardless of what difficulty other people do it on. What is diluted is your epeen. It dilutes your self perceived status as part of that world's power elite and the recognition you want for that forced onto other players. Raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment. Stop making this out to be a "not good enough plebs" versus "elite skilled pros" debate to either make yourself feel better or muddy the argument. The argument that your raiding "challenge" is somehow diluted by a solo option for the same gear is literally no different than the argument that gay marriage ruins straight christian marriage. The real problem is that if there's a solo option raids will struggle to find enough people willing to do it.

Reread what you just posted. When you boil the fat away from the meat all it said was "I don't want filthy casuals having the same loot I have". The rest of it is bullshit rationalizing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 12:39:30 PM
Stuff

The problem with what you said is that none of what you said "dilutes" the challenge to you. If you and your raid want to do encounter on whatever difficulty level, the challenge to you in doing it is that same regardless of what difficulty other people do it on. What is diluted is your epeen. It dilutes your self perceived status as part of that world's power elite and the recognition you want for that forced onto other players. Raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment. Stop making this out to be a "not good enough plebs" versus "elite skilled pros" debate to either make yourself feel better or muddy the argument. The argument that your raiding "challenge" is somehow diluted by a solo option for the same gear is literally no different than the argument that gay marriage ruins straight christian marriage. The real problem is that if there's a solo option raids will struggle to find enough people willing to do it.

Reread what you just posted. When you boil the fat away from the meat all it said was "I don't want filthy casuals having the same loot I have". The rest of it is bullshit rationalizing.

First, if raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment, then why does WOW have three different raiding difficulties and the one most people use is the easiest? Sounds like you're completely ignorant of the whole genre. You sound like that college football player that play Div 3 saying that the NFL isn't really much of a difference and is just as easy. Beyond the stupid logistics of organizing a team of people and scheduling them, the fights are actually more difficult and challenging.

The rest of your post is just weird and strangely political. This isn't class warfare, it's a fucking video game. Though I have to give you credit as probably the first person who compared raiders and casuals to gay marriage.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 12, 2013, 12:44:23 PM
Dark souls should have an easy mode to cater to the non catasses out there.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on August 12, 2013, 12:46:03 PM
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82533/angryowl.jpg)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 12, 2013, 12:46:25 PM


MMOs don't lock you out of content, and raids are not substantial amounts of content either.

MMOs, with subs, give you equal access to everything. If you aren't good enough to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough time to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough friends to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't like playing with X amount of players, that's on you.

Every game doesn't need to cater to you. If you want a game where you can do everything in the game, beat all the bosses and see everything by literally doing nothing, you have World of Warcraft.

Some games want specific bosses to be hard. So, if you happen to beat the Badass Dragon they want that experience and challenge to be uniform across the game. So when you tell a friend what you did, he doesn't go did you beat it in LFR? Normal? Heroic? Does he even care about that distinction? Does anyone care at that point when content is so diluted?

Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. It's the same thing when solo players gnash their teeth when people tell them to play a single player game instead. Solo players love playing MMORPGs because they like spending time in a world where they come across other players and they enjoy the experience of playing within a shared environment regardless of their direct interaction with other players. So that shared experience matters to them. In reverse, solo or casual players tell raiders, whats wrong with just doing the same raid but just harder? You get your challenge and I get to do the raid too in super easy mode.

Well the problem here is that raiders like the challenges of a difficult raid, and they also like showing off the shared acknowledgement that they completed it. When Mr Raider kills Bad Ass Dragon and tells a buddy what he did and that buddy can say, yeah I killed him to last week! It kind of dilutes the challenge. Raiders like the shared experience of that.

Now lets bring in League of Legends. They have managed to give Bronze level players the same content as Diamond players yet Riot has been able to give higher ranked players a clear distinction. A diamond level play is nearly a completely different game than a bronze level game.

If MMORPGs can somehow show off this distinction you can solve the problem of difficulties. The huge difference is that you can easily recognize skilled gameplay in a game like League whereas watching 20-40 people raid in any difficulty is mostly the same. People moving to avoid fire and spamming abilities. Of course the game-type is so different, it's probably impossible.

If you stopped using terms like "easy mode" I might take what your trying to say more seriously.  It makes you sound like a pretentious l33t dude trying to school the casuals and nubs.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 12, 2013, 12:50:47 PM
Draegan represents the 1% in MMO's but still sees himself as an every-man.  I saw this from him in Rift.  

I'm as hardcore as the next guy when it comes to gameplay and find that I enjoy punishing content.  What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups.  After 5 people it's more about organization and the least-common-denominator which are precisely the factors that breed elitism in these games.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 12, 2013, 01:26:35 PM
First, if raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment, then why does WOW have three different raiding difficulties and the one most people use is the easiest?
Because people have shit to do and if given the choice between spending time grinding away 40,000 hit points on a boss or 4,000,000, the 40,000 wins. What would win even more is 4,000 in a solo instance and that's why raiders don't want them. Because hardly anyone would group raid then. Don't confuse time consuming and a pain in the ass with difficult.

Sounds like you're completely ignorant of the whole genre. You sound like that college football player that play Div 3 saying that the NFL isn't really much of a difference and is just as easy. Beyond the stupid logistics of organizing a team of people and scheduling them, the fights are actually more difficult and challenging.
Yeah, not really that much harder or challenging. Like I said though, other than your own bruised ego, what difficulty other people do a raid at affects you literally not at all. Well, other than the fact that if people could get the same loot running a raid solo you'd have a much harder time finding groups. It's cute though that you're using a comparison of different overall skill levels for a team sport when the comparison should be a teams of evenly skilled basketball players versus two players going 1 on 1. Group versus Solo does not equal Hard versus Easy. If anything, solo play is considerably harder than group play and requires much more player skill and knowledge.


The rest of your post is just weird and strangely political. This isn't class warfare, it's a fucking video game. Though I have to give you credit as probably the first person who compared raiders and casuals to gay marriage.

Everything you write screams the traditional MMO "class warfare". I used the gay marriage comparison because you're using the exact same argument that traditional marriage "defenders" use to claim gay marriage somehow affects their own marriages. The reality is it has no affect whatsoever other than someone is doing something differently than you did to get the same outcome and you don't like it so they shouldn't be allowed to do it. You write that you enjoy the challenge of a raid, but what you're actually communicating is that you enjoy having things that other people don't have because it makes you special. Those are two different things and you're trying to cloak the latter in the former because it removes the dickishness.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 01:58:06 PM
If you stopped using terms like "easy mode" I might take what your trying to say more seriously.  It makes you sound like a pretentious l33t dude trying to school the casuals and nubs.

That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sky on August 12, 2013, 02:03:39 PM
What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups. solo players.
But also what bob said, not just inflating hp and damage, just making things /tailored/ to a difficult solo run where a good player will be successful, but a bad player will not be. Why are solo players stuck in the overland where there is little reward for good or bad playing?

And I agree about the difficulty of solo play, as someone who used to solo a lot in EQ and EQ2. It was tough in EQ (with my necro) and there were things I could pull off that gave that sense of accomplishment...but then some diptard trinity group would just roll right in and easily tackle the same thing. And maybe then a raid-geared solo player will also come roll the content, because even though I supposedly 'don't need' raid gear because I'm not raiding, raid-geared characters ARE able to play all other content with gear that's WAY over-tuned for it (and then bitch about how easy it is).

I've been saying for years that a proper dungeon would have tiered instances (all content, just different numbers): Solo, Group, Raid, Public. There, everyone is happy.

Except as this always boils down to, nobody WANTS to raid, they HAVE to.

I don't think I've ever agreed this much with a.bob in the history of not being a community. No, no class bullshit at all.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
Draegan represents the 1% in MMO's but still sees himself as an every-man.  I saw this from him in Rift.  

I'm as hardcore as the next guy when it comes to gameplay and find that I enjoy punishing content.  What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups.  After 5 people it's more about organization and the least-common-denominator which are precisely the factors that breed elitism in these games.

I hardly represent the 1%. I leave that for the neckbeards. Unfortunately some people can't see past the old hardcore vs. casual debate where it's either raiding or nothing. Like you, I would love to see a game that had no raiding and a serious 5 man progression based game. That would be awesome.

Personally I don't like raiding anymore and don't plan to ever do it again. I don't have time for raid schedules and frankly, I find scripted encounters where precise movement is required while tapping  keys in a rotation or if you fail everyone dies and you have to repeat everything over again.. unfun and stupid. Especially in a DIKU/Hotbar style game.

Take your request for a progression based 5 man dungeon game. I would argue the same thing that there shouldn't be any difficulty settings. Keep the difficulty up and slowly nerf the dungeon as time goes on. This whole three difficulty settings thing in an MMORPG is bad design in my opinion. There are more elegant ways to increase content consumption.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 12, 2013, 02:06:32 PM
That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.

Mostly because normal people don't give a shit let alone describe it using a term that's generally accepted to be derogatory. It's a huge indicator that you're an elitist twat.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 02:10:05 PM


Except as this always boils down to, nobody WANTS to raid, they HAVE to.

I don't think I've ever agreed this much with a.bob in the history of not being a community. No, no class bullshit at all.

Says who? When I was younger I enjoyed the shit out of raiding. I really did enjoy grouping with a bunch of other people in a dungeon setting. The only reason why you see "raiders" these days getting smaller and smaller is because when you keep offering easier and easier solutions to the same thing over time, you're going to lose the bigger raids out of attrition. It's bound to happen.

There are people out there that really love raiding and all that comes with it. Part of it is the epeen. Part of it is the loot. Part of it is the challenge. Who doesn't love beating something difficult then bragging about it to everyone? That's fucking human nature.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 12, 2013, 02:10:23 PM
I'd be more sympathetic to the 'make all content soloable!' idea if someone could explain to me how to make the 4 Horsemen in Naxxramas fight work for a solo player while still retaining any semblance of how it worked before.

Also, throwing this out there: I like having raids be different content than dungeons/solo stuff just because if I do decide to go raiding, I want to see something new, not rehash something I already did just with more people.

EDIT:

And Sky, you're wrong about the 'nobody wants to raid' thing. I enjoyed all the (easy mode casual scrub 10-man) raiding I did in TBC-Wrath era for its own sake.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 12, 2013, 02:12:31 PM
That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.

Mostly because normal people don't give a shit let alone describe it using a term that's generally accepted to be derogatory. It's a huge indicator that you're an elitist twat.

You're angrier then normal these days.  Punkbuster come out with a patch recently or something?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 02:12:51 PM
That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.

Mostly because normal people don't give a shit let alone describe it using a term that's generally accepted to be derogatory. It's a huge indicator that you're an elitist twat.

Sorry I hurt your feelings dude. Make sure you cry really loud next so I can hear it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 02:15:01 PM


Also, throwing this out there: I like having raids be different content than dungeons/solo stuff just because if I do decide to go raiding, I want to see something new, not rehash something I already did just with more people.

Which is what Wildstar is doing I think. They have solo, 5 man, 20 man and 40 man content that is all separated.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 12, 2013, 02:16:39 PM
I'll try and expand a bit on one liners which c'mon Rasix, was a little funny.

There is nothing inherently wrong with multiple difficulty levels in games.  In fact nearly every game out there these days offers some kind of easy/normal/hard setting(we will exclude dark souls because it's niche on purpose)  Also saying "easy mode" is not really an insult when some things like LFR are exactly and purposefully that.  

The argument has always been that making things easier devalues the achievements of others and I think that argument has a kernel of truth but is very wrong-minded.  Difficulty settings in any single player game are for one reason only, to cater your gaming experience to your own preferences.  While some prefer to tone it down and play on easy mode, I know many(on this site specifically) that choose to ramp things up because even normal mode is too much a cake walk. No one bats an eye in single player games, yet in online games it's wildly regarded as "catering to casuals".

The main issues with varying difficulty in multiplayer games is two-fold:

First is that people prefer consistency, a sense of fairness and stability.  Having different leagues in LOL or even professional sports works fine but if suddenly you had MLB players going up against farm teams(in games beyond exhibition) people would cry out. The same goes for matching bronze LOL players against diamond in ranked matches.

Bear with me, I know most mmo's aren't about pvp.  Even if we exclude player vs player combat, the gear race in these games is still very player vs player and while you may not enjoy that aspect of the game it's simply impossible to get rid of it due to human nature.  It need not even be about raids, simply getting a rare fashion item or non combat pet can be a point of pride(the oozling pet in wow back in the day was a big deal)

Everyone has difficulty settings they are happy with and whatever setting you play skyrim on, it's how simply how that world is for you.  It's when you start bringing in people playing simultaneously at different difficulty levels for the same rewards there is discontent and worse, disassociation with the game.  People stop thinking of it as THEIR GAME and start seeing the man behind the curtain.  

The second is:  When you try to cater to everyone, you get Mcdonalds.

Why must mmo's be all things to all people? We don't ask the same in our single player games and yet when it comes to the massively multiplayer we want, nay DEMAND it cater to all types.  Wow suffers from its own terrible weight on this issue, it's become a giant machine to pump out subs and each passing iteration has brought seemingly more for all types of players yet the quality suffers more and more.  It's a classic case of being spread too thin on all parts.

We should be applauding any game that wants to bring in 40, even old style eq70 player raids if that's what they want to do and if they do it well.  Most online games now are either blatant cash grabs with F2P or so homogenized that every aspect is as bland as a big mac.

God I went on too long here....

TL;DR edition: Consistency in your game, whatever game that is.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 12, 2013, 02:18:13 PM
I hardly represent the 1%. I leave that for the neckbeards. Unfortunately some people can't see past the old hardcore vs. casual debate where it's either raiding or nothing. Like you, I would love to see a game that had no raiding and a serious 5 man progression based game. That would be awesome.

Personally I don't like raiding anymore and don't plan to ever do it again. I don't have time for raid schedules and frankly, I find scripted encounters where precise movement is required while tapping  keys in a rotation or if you fail everyone dies and you have to repeat everything over again.. unfun and stupid. Especially in a DIKU/Hotbar style game.

Take your request for a progression based 5 man dungeon game. I would argue the same thing that there shouldn't be any difficulty settings. Keep the difficulty up and slowly nerf the dungeon as time goes on. This whole three difficulty settings thing in an MMORPG is bad design in my opinion. There are more elegant ways to increase content consumption.

Sounds like we want the same game.  If it also has a reasonable PvP component (even just battlegrounds), I'd be happy for 6 months.  Why have we not played more MMO's together?  I imagine we'd have some interesting discussions.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 12, 2013, 02:30:39 PM
Draegan represents the 1% in MMO's but still sees himself as an every-man.  I saw this from him in Rift.  

I'm as hardcore as the next guy when it comes to gameplay and find that I enjoy punishing content.  What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups.  After 5 people it's more about organization and the least-common-denominator which are precisely the factors that breed elitism in these games.

Part of why I liked LOTRO. All the small group/full group content + Difficulty.

I Can give two shits about "Raids", to each his own. Only time it affects me is PvP ( In Typical power crazed MMO's ) and if the development is only about that. I Have planetside for real raids, and logistics, and planing, and challenge. It also takes less time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on August 12, 2013, 02:57:24 PM
Raid ARE harder by default even if it is only by enflating the HP of a boss, because the more people you need to do any content the higher the flat number of mistakes to be committed by those people. Every additional person is a chance for mistakes and blunders. In a group of five, if we do two mistakes each on average on a given boss, we have ten mistakes. In a group of 40, that number multiplies.

That is why solo content is pretty much generally considered easier, because YOU are responsible for everything and you can keep under control the number of "mistakes" in each encounter much more easily. Same with your own learning process.

So we can disagree forever, but raid content is -withouth getting into the specific of any raid in any game- harder by default, because more people means more chances for mistakes. This is why it feels like winning at the NFL instead of Division 3, because it literally WAS harder to get everything in order to win.

And to clarify, sure you can make a specific 5 person thing which is much harder than a specific 40 person raid, but the human element works against humans, so everything is easier if you can  keep that to a minimum.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 12, 2013, 03:05:03 PM


Sounds like we want the same game.  If it also has a reasonable PvP component (even just battlegrounds), I'd be happy for 6 months.  Why have we not played more MMO's together?  I imagine we'd have some interesting discussions.



I haven't played an MMORPG more than a few weeks since Rift releaed, and that was my last hurrah into raiding. Since then no MMORPG has captured my attention. I played GW2 a lot, but I played that more like a single player game than anything else. WvW was fun for a few weeks too.

I've been playing LOL almost exclusively these last few months. I'd love to play video games with you next time a good MMORPG comes out (if that ever happens). Maybe EQN will be something. Wildstar, for me, will be something I try for a month or so from my view point now. I have no desire for a raid game, and I'm tired of quest treadmill leveling games.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 12, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
Dito. Ain't no one got time for that!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sky on August 12, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
I am glad I blundered into this if only to remind me why I walked away from this genre.

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/out-of-here.gif)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: satael on August 12, 2013, 03:50:04 PM
I wish MMO content had more of a simple-complex scale rather than the current type of easy-hard which usually means more or less just more damage and hp for the mob (with maybe a new type of special attack or two if it's a boss). It might not be very popular though since too good mob AI tends to make games not enjoyable to alot of the player base.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 12, 2013, 03:52:56 PM
MMO's tend to attract players that enjoy the time = power progression.  FPS/MOBA games tend to attract players that enjoy skill = power paradigm. 

Different strokes for different folks.  I know I prefer something in the middle... which is why WoT appeals to me so much.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 12, 2013, 06:33:48 PM
I agree with Draegan's wall of text with the caveat that I don't consider requiring more people to be legitimate challenge after a certain point.

Requiring 40 people basically means you have to be a serious member of a guild, put up with guild politics bullshit and drama, etc. The skill it tests is social organization. If a game requires a 5-person group if you have an active circle of friends playing you can tackle it, or maybe do it with randoms. At 40 you're blocking people off not based on challenge but on guild membership.

That said I don't see why content has to be accessible to all players. After I beat Xenoblade I didn't do any of the "post-game" bosses, I had played enough of the game and moved on. That's content I never saw but I greatly enjoyed the game so I don't feel cheated.

The resource argument is also a bit tricky. On some level it makes sense not to spend resources on things most players won't experience, but that's also an argument against branching paths of any kind, optional quests, etc. IMO it adds a lot to the world for something to exist, even if you've never personally experienced it. Within reason of course.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 12, 2013, 10:47:00 PM

Everyone wants a game perfect for them, and developer time and focus is limited.

I'm beginning to wonder if there was a multi-player mod for a game like skyrim, and content packs, whether I could happily wave good bye to the idea of MMO's. People who play for achievement want an audience but I just want to explore a world with friends rather than having the drama and effort of having to fill a raid team or the anonymity of LFR. So maybe the problem is there's nothing between single player and MMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 12, 2013, 11:21:58 PM
When I first played Daggerfall I thought "man, this game is practically already a multi-player game, why not just have multi-player?" but the more I thought about it the more I thought it wouldn't work.

I do agree that small group / co-op stuff is pretty different from massive. I think the problem is that if you are an "MMO" you can engage in MMO-style pricing, whereas if you're a game with small group support it's harder to get away with that - though that's probably changing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 13, 2013, 07:11:35 AM

Everyone wants a game perfect for them, and developer time and focus is limited.

I'm beginning to wonder if there was a multi-player mod for a game like skyrim, and content packs, whether I could happily wave good bye to the idea of MMO's. People who play for achievement want an audience but I just want to explore a world with friends rather than having the drama and effort of having to fill a raid team or the anonymity of LFR. So maybe the problem is there's nothing between single player and MMO.


I've said many times on these forums before, but I wish someone would attempt another game like NWN.  The best privately run persistent world servers in those games were better experiences than MMOs in my opinion.

Edit: Of course, the big problem these days is that no one is going to sell that kind of versatility in a game for 50 bucks and leave it at that.  It's a damn shame.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: amiable on August 13, 2013, 07:16:32 AM


I've said many times on these forums before, but I wish someone would attempt another game like NWN.  The best privately run persistent world servers in those games were better experiences that MMOs in my opinion.

It would be nice, but I nowadays the company that made it would probably be too interested in monetizing the toolset.  "Pay 500 Macguffin points (20 dollars) for the Evil Temple tiles!"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 13, 2013, 07:58:55 AM
Eh, Enterbrain does that with RPGMaker and it still does a pretty healthy business despite being a really weird niche product mostly used by the Japanese to make horror games.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 13, 2013, 08:26:27 AM
I don't really see a problem with the company trying to make some money either.  NWN persistent worlds were a lot of fun, I spent more time on them than any recent MMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 13, 2013, 08:44:23 AM
A more robust/more scriptable/less janky NWN type game would be awesome, but I think the AAA industry has all but told modders to fuck off at this point, minus Bethesda and that's just with the Elder Scrolls series which has a long history of it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 13, 2013, 08:44:47 AM
RMT universally shits up whatever game it is in.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 13, 2013, 11:48:36 AM
Man, looks like I should have waited a few days before posting my little "Y U ALL SO ANGRY" post.  Much more pertinent now.

But basically, this:

Why must mmo's be all things to all people? We don't ask the same in our single player games and yet when it comes to the massively multiplayer we want, nay DEMAND it cater to all types.  Wow suffers from its own terrible weight on this issue, it's become a giant machine to pump out subs and each passing iteration has brought seemingly more for all types of players yet the quality suffers more and more.  It's a classic case of being spread too thin on all parts.

Also, I'm not sure if some of you realize just how easy WoW's LFR is.  I get where the gut reaction to Draegan's comment about LFR being "easy-mode" came from, because there have been some goddamn toxic communities on the WoW servers I've played on, and the constant douchebaggery from the "elite" guilds made me want to set people on fire.  That said, at some point, you do have to accept that that is the only fitting term.  To clarify...

And Sky, you're wrong about the 'nobody wants to raid' thing. I enjoyed all the (easy mode casual scrub 10-man) raiding I did in TBC-Wrath era for its own sake.

There is absolutely no comparison between the mocking term "easy-mode" applied to these 10-man raids (which were actually fairly hard in some cases, especially optional bosses and hard modes and such), and the word "easy-mode" applied to LFR raids.  LFR is ridiculously easy.  If you haven't experienced it, you have to just trust that it is in a class of its own.  Literally, you will learn nothing about the abilities or mechanics of virtually any boss doing LFR.  It's designed so that 25 total strangers can, without communicating or having experienced the fights before, reliably defeat pretty much every encounter, despite the fact that these encounters have mechanics designed to involve coordinated play (which are then gutted into being meaningless for the LFR version).  Occasionally one boss is "hard" enough that it takes a few tries of blindly attacking it to win (again, without communication or preparation).

So when you see someone talking about "easy modes" of modern raids, please do not mistake these people for being the same dudes who based the old "easy mode" raids, which were in fact "fairly tough" raids.  This is ACTUAL easy mode.

(Btw, regarding the discussion about why difficulty levels might not work as well in a multiplayer setting, I have to point out:  Difficulty levels, especially the naive "choose how hard this game should be!" arguably kind of suck even in single-player games much of the time)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 13, 2013, 02:57:34 PM
[snip]
Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. [snip]

Question to those advocating for large raids and best gear for largest raids - why wasn't Vanguard successful?  Not a snarky question, just wondering about your take on the failure of Vanguard.  I don't know anything about Vanguard except that it was supposed to be more on the challenging/punishing side of the house.  Vanguard seems like it would have drawn the type of people that Draegen is talking about in that quote.  My impression (from people posting about it here) was that it was a reasonably well designed and implemented game, but it seems like few played it.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 13, 2013, 03:28:52 PM
It was a buggy broken piece of crap game that was hardly finished. The game engine was awful. Dungeon design was pretty meh in most places. World was gigantic with a lot of empty space. It was very grindy in certain points. It was also full of hacks and broken abilities and things.

It was not supported very well.

The only things you can take from the game is that the class system/design was probably the best out there and I liked the Offensive and Defensive targets.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on August 13, 2013, 04:06:47 PM
It was the opposite of polished at the peak of an era where everything that wasn't WoW was just actively ridiculed. As Draegan pointed out (and everything he said is spot on) there were many issues, but at the end of the day the lack of polish couldn't attract anyone but the most die hard EverQuest fans, which were not that many to begin with and were at the time already stretched over EQ1 and EQ2.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 13, 2013, 04:12:08 PM
[snip]
Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. [snip]

Question to those advocating for large raids and best gear for largest raids - why wasn't Vanguard successful?  Not a snarky question, just wondering about your take on the failure of Vanguard.  I don't know anything about Vanguard except that it was supposed to be more on the challenging/punishing side of the house.  Vanguard seems like it would have drawn the type of people that Draegen is talking about in that quote.  My impression (from people posting about it here) was that it was a reasonably well designed and implemented game, but it seems like few played it.



Besides what Draegan said, it abandoned a bunch of things that I feel fairly confident that most of the people who want at least some kind of separate raid game with its own content would want. Stuff like instancing, fast travel, and keeping the ball-busting stuff confined to group content. It's kind of useless for the argument because it was such a bad game almost nobody actually got to the raiding content in the first place.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 13, 2013, 05:43:20 PM
Thanks all, wasn't trolling, was just curious.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 13, 2013, 10:15:34 PM
Question to those advocating for large raids and best gear for largest raids - why wasn't Vanguard successful?  Not a snarky question, just wondering about your take on the failure of Vanguard.  I don't know anything about Vanguard except that it was supposed to be more on the challenging/punishing side of the house.  Vanguard seems like it would have drawn the type of people that Draegen is talking about in that quote.  My impression (from people posting about it here) was that it was a reasonably well designed and implemented game, but it seems like few played it.

Vanguard didn't flop because of its difficulty factor. It flopped because it was a bug ridden, duck-taped, sandwich of shoddy programming.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 14, 2013, 12:32:26 AM
Often when a game fails people try to draw broad lessons from it about what the audience does or does not want, when the reality is simply that the game just wasn't good.

You see this all the time with sandbox games - a cheap, poorly designed sandbox game fails and that is taken as evidence that people don't want sandbox games.

A classic non-MMO example of this is Mad World for Wii - it didn't do particularly well and was used as evidence that Nintendo gamers didn't want "core" games. Of course, the game was a black and white arena-based brawler that would bomb on any system, and in fact Anarchy Reigns, a similar game by the same company, released later for PS3 and 360 and also bombed.

Before Red Dead Redemption you probably could have argued that gamers don't like the western setting, when the reality was that the few games in that setting were mediocre.

I don't think there are too many high-level concepts in games that flat out don't work. But to make them work you have to make a good game - having a certain concept is like step one of one million.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 14, 2013, 09:17:42 AM
I agree with that.

Unfortunately "similar but better" is a hard sale to investors where "different and unique!!" is easier to attract the monies.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 14, 2013, 11:51:37 AM
Selling to investors rather than gamers is the majority of these studios' problem right there.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 14, 2013, 12:10:28 PM
I agree also.  As such, I'll be happy that we stop saying, "procedurally created content can't be fun", and start saying, "whoever figures out how to do entertaining procedurally created content in multi-player online games is going to net a lot of money".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 14, 2013, 12:26:12 PM
It's all in who can best design the next loot slot machine.  MMO buyers are the crack addicts of the gaming world.  All you have to do is hook them and the money follows.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on August 14, 2013, 07:25:38 PM
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m77y7d1yAA1r2gow4o1_500.jpg)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on August 14, 2013, 08:03:20 PM
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m77y7d1yAA1r2gow4o1_500.jpg)

Memories...  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sky on August 15, 2013, 01:46:09 PM
CCG buyers are the crack addicts of the gaming world.  All you have to do is hook them and the money follows.
:why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Chockonuts on August 15, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Often when a game fails people try to draw broad lessons from it about what the audience does or does not want, when the reality is simply that the game just wasn't good.
I know 10,000 rabid and angry CoH players who would like to disagree with you.  :wink:

Jokes aside, I like what you wrote about that. Gaming Darwinism often is covered with that nonsensical statement that "every game deserves to be made" that I hear a lot. There are simply too many bad game makers and designers out there that need to be making town traffic-signal software instead.

It's like the NBA/NHL . People always think there should be another team expansioned out because 'we have all this great talent out there' and then the leagues start to suck because they let marginal people who should have been personal trainers after their college careers start playing at a guaranteed minimum salary.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 15, 2013, 10:25:18 PM
The evolution of these kinds of games results from those failed attempts as much as the successful ones. For a long while, nobody could outspend SOE, so we saw many ideas tried, some limited successes, SOE stumble on the sequel, and Blizzard take over the world. Then they became unassailable until the whole concept of single huge subs-based MMOs started to get left behind as the easy money chased lower risk opportunities on emerging social and mobile platforms and other core gamer games ripped off the high retention features like scaffolded XP ladders, player pyramids and all the other systems.

All games do deserve to be tried. Otherwise, we're presupposing we already know all the best ways to do something. Which we never do ever nor ever have in the history of anything :-)

tl;dr: we learn by doing.

Unfortunately "similar but better" is a hard sale to investors where "different and unique!!" is easier to attract the monies.

I find this statement curious. Is that a typo? I ask because I've always seen that "similar but better" is what brings the investor money in where "different and unique" is what leaves them in a wait-and-see mode. It depends on the type of investment of course. Self-made millionaire game studio founder funding a new game is very different from the VC investor who normally invests in summer blockbuster projects you happened to sit next to on the flight :-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 15, 2013, 10:52:22 PM


Unfortunately "similar but better" is a hard sale to investors where "different and unique!!" is easier to attract the monies.

I find this statement curious. Is that a typo? I ask because I've always seen that "similar but better" is what brings the investor money in where "different and unique" is what leaves them in a wait-and-see mode. It depends on the type of investment of course. Self-made millionaire game studio founder funding a new game is very different from the VC investor who normally invests in summer blockbuster projects you happened to sit next to on the flight :-)

You are right.  Its why we see endless sequels within the entertainment industry.  Straying too far off the beaten path scares investors and if they're scared they won't invest.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 16, 2013, 12:53:12 AM
It's very hard to do data-driven analysis of the video game industry with regards to things like the appeal of different types of games because there aren't enough data points.

If 100 sandbox MMOs and 100 theme park MMOs released a year and theme parks did better it may be safe to say that theme parks just have more appeal. But when there is between zero and one high-profile sandbox MMOs a year there's not nearly enough data for the issues with any particular game to be irrelevant.

At least for AAA games there just aren't enough games made for data-based analysis of this sort to have meaning.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 16, 2013, 10:38:14 AM


Unfortunately "similar but better" is a hard sale to investors where "different and unique!!" is easier to attract the monies.

I find this statement curious. Is that a typo? I ask because I've always seen that "similar but better" is what brings the investor money in where "different and unique" is what leaves them in a wait-and-see mode. It depends on the type of investment of course. Self-made millionaire game studio founder funding a new game is very different from the VC investor who normally invests in summer blockbuster projects you happened to sit next to on the flight :-)

You are right.  Its why we see endless sequels within the entertainment industry.  Straying too far off the beaten path scares investors and if they're scared they won't invest.

You read the context wrong. When the norm is WOW and WOW clones and someone goes off and makes a sandbox game (opposite of WOW) and it fails, it's really hard to say to investors that it failed because of X, Y, Z and I can do it better!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 17, 2013, 01:54:20 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. We're basically saying the same thing.

And while I agree with you Margalis, that is unfortunately how it goes. There's not enough quantitative data to say whether something fundamentally does or does not work. But there are enough high profile high risk largely underperforming games that have launched for people to think they can intuit some type of baseline.

This is always the push/pull between analytics and business decision making. Some people make very metrics--based decisions. But most times, businesses can't just rely on the numbers because the numbers can only tell you what HAS happened, not what could possibly. For example, as much as Zynga has been said to use huge arrays of measurements to tweak everything from monetization through game mechanic, they've had to take a wide array of risks to expand their business beyond the *ville type mechanic, when that mechanic plateaued across the social space and jumped to mobile.

And so it goes with businesses. There's metrics, but that gets combined with intuition, politics and ego :-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on August 19, 2013, 07:46:38 AM
Pricing model released.  Going the EVE "it's still 1999, but you can BST game-time" approach.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/632/feature/7690/WildStar-Revenue-Model-Revealed.html

Not sure if I'll still pick this up now.  Will have to see how Hex pans out.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 19, 2013, 08:15:17 AM
So basically you buy the box, learn to exploit a broken economy/system, and then play-for-free until you get bored.  Got it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 19, 2013, 08:52:11 AM

Eve mostly does that to pad it's activity numbers even with the lack of content, I suspect this one will be tuned much meaner. The fact that PLEX are much more expensive will make them rarer in game for a start.

No surprise really. When they started talking about a raiding game it was pretty obvious they reckon they have a chance at being WoW's replacement. And they'll need money for the content stream to back that up.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: amiable on August 19, 2013, 09:44:37 AM

 it was pretty obvious they reckon they have a chance at being WoW's replacement.


This is going to end poorly for them.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on August 19, 2013, 10:20:25 AM
I think the market for WoW in Space (or at least a sci-fi version of WoW) is still there.  It may not be as cantankerous as it was when WoW truly peaked, but it's there.  A lot of the systems and mechanics they're throwing in do make it very lucrative as well.  Still, the market has a thirst for F2P and Buy Once games that are of A to AA quality now, unlike how they were when WoW, again, was at it's peak.

The sooner they drop the NDA and start showing real confidence in their product, the better.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 19, 2013, 11:19:47 AM
Quote
2013
Pay $60 for a subscription based game, $15 a month
No microtransactions
No free to download
No free to play

Ahahahahahaha. Yeah. Add in raid exclusive content and this game can fuck itself right in the ass regardless of how great the faction and housing trailers looked. If they stick with this, they're probably going to be cancelled  inside of two years.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: apocrypha on August 19, 2013, 12:45:48 PM
It'll be F2P within 6 months of launch is my prediction.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 19, 2013, 12:50:41 PM
It'll be F2P within 6 months of launch is my prediction.

Going out on a limb are we? :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 19, 2013, 01:03:14 PM
It'll be F2P within 6 months of launch is my prediction.

Don't forget that it will also be $7.99 on Amazon or Steam.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on August 19, 2013, 01:48:18 PM
Yeah, not too thrilled about a $60 entrance fee, then a subscription on top of that, no matter how many in-game things let me shortcut that sub price. If I don't get in beta and see whether this game is worth it or not, I won't be buying this at release. Consider my interest... cooled.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 03:32:07 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 19, 2013, 03:57:30 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I hope you're right.  I personally loathe the F2P model.  I'd much rather pay for a boutique of services than get nickeled and dimed to death.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 19, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I hope you're right.  I personally loathe the F2P model.  I'd much rather pay for a boutique of services than get nickeled and dimed to death.

I agree.  I was hoping this would be a sub game, although I thought the chances were small.  I much prefer being able to just pay the 15 bucks and then play the game on my own terms for a month.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 19, 2013, 04:36:34 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on August 19, 2013, 04:39:33 PM
If we're going to record this for posterity, fix the spelling.

I'm not sure sub/ftp changes my equation for playing this.  I'll probably buy it, maybe make it past the first month, get bored/frustrated with solo play because I'm a hermit, and then quit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Shatter on August 19, 2013, 04:40:43 PM
F2P was so pre-2013, this game is 2014 now so sub model is back in bitches!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 19, 2013, 04:43:00 PM
The only thing to see here is how big of crater it makes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 19, 2013, 04:45:07 PM
I despise free to play. With only two exceptions since the free to play madness started, the best way to get me to not give you a dime is to be a free to play game.

As far as I am concerned, free to play really means free to spend a much larger amount of money than fifteen dollars a month. A large portion of the free to play market requires a much heavier investment to get the most out of the game than the traditional sub model used to cost.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 05:03:42 PM
It's no coincidence F2P and 3-D movies came out in the same time frame.  The more people getting online and playing games, the more savvy they are becoming and noticing the gimmicks for what they are.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 19, 2013, 05:05:22 PM
Most of the games that converted from sub still offer a subscription option that pretty much covers all your needs, though. I don't really care when games go F2P as long as there's a subscription option with appropriate perks.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 19, 2013, 05:39:31 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.

I think when people start realizing how much they spend on store items and crap they'll realize they aren't that far off or exceeding sub costs. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 05:43:39 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.

I think when people start realizing how much they spend on store items and crap they'll realize they aren't that far off or exceeding sub costs. 


This is exactly it, it's a cash grab by publishers and people are already becoming savvy to it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 19, 2013, 05:49:30 PM
Planetside 2 is a big offender.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 19, 2013, 05:56:43 PM
Yes companies make huge bank off of the percentage of players will to invest deep via f2p. But I'm intrigued they have the confidence to offer a $60+subs model.

I'd say keep the NDA in place until launch, peddle the heck out of it, get their 2-3 months of subs, and then f2p it. Can they out-WoW while WoW continues to decline? Kinda doesn't matter, because out-WoWing WoW is no longer the requirement when the players WoW is shedding may not even be staying in MMOs anymore. So maybe there's room for a smaller game to become a relatively bigger fish by being like-WoW enough to be the viable alternative that no other game in the last bunch of years has been able to be.

None of it matters (/existential), but nice to see someone trying hard anyway.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 06:07:55 PM
Trying to top wow is ridiculous, getting a million subs on a subscription model is enough to keep the company rolling in cash, let alone 7-11million.  Going F2P usually means your game is <1mil and let's be honest, most mmo's in the last 5years have not been AAA titles. Even SWTOR which was dubbed a kingslayer was a half-baked,underfunded and bland experience.

We don't KNOW if mmo's can exist on a sub model beyond wow because no one has invested enough time to make one good enough to deserve it.

Can Wildstar? I don't know but they are trying.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 19, 2013, 06:36:29 PM
Awful lot of completely wrong people in the last couple of pages. Subs-based MMOs are essentially dead unless you are WoW; that's not an opinion, that's a fact


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 19, 2013, 06:38:53 PM
Awful lot of completely wrong people in the last couple of pages. Subs-based MMOs are essentially dead unless you are WoW; that's not an opinion, that's a fact

Care to um, you know, provide credible citations. Since it's a fact and all.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 19, 2013, 06:47:49 PM
Ahhhh, feeling a sense of closure.

Also, "FREE" TO PLAY IS HERE TO STAY!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 19, 2013, 06:52:09 PM
Awful lot of completely wrong people in the last couple of pages. Subs-based MMOs are essentially dead unless you are WoW; that's not an opinion, that's a fact

Care to um, you know, provide credible citations. Since it's a fact and all.
Here's a better idea: Name me half a dozen sub-only MMOS with subscriber numbers in six digits.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 19, 2013, 07:24:01 PM

Sub numbers are not really that good a way to measure f2p titles, you'd need revenue and you are not going to get that.

The fact that an ageing and fading WoW is still generating obscene revenue is enough evidence the sub model remains potentially viable. But I'd suspect it's also extremely competitive in that only the dominant game in a niche can make it work. The also ran's give up and go f2p.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Shatter on August 19, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
We haven't seen an MMO with a really strong F2P model that wrecks bank accounts yet, but the potential is there to make a lot more then $15 a month from players on a consistent basis


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 08:33:44 PM
I like how Simond white knights wow in those forums yet "sub models are dead, fact!" comes up here. Look, wow is a popular game, most mmo's made in the last 5 years are, kinda shitty. You know what uses subscription models? Nearly every bill you have.

Phones,Electric,Rent,Internet,Cable,Water,Trash,Mortage. The list is endless.

Before you say "But this has jack shit to do with games!" people have been paying for subscription based services for hundreds of years and it is not going to go away in those mediums or in gaming.  It is about providing content and value for the dollar you spend.  All a game needs to do is provide content and value equal to subscription money and you win.   Thus far WoW has been the only game to provide content that people felt worth their money to such a large extent.

Shit, people pay gym fees for access to literal treadmills, you think that paying for ones where you get to cyber purple chicks is gonna disappear?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 19, 2013, 08:46:32 PM
Meh, I still pay a sub to SWTOR cuz it's worth it to me.  I'd be spending more to do what I want with the F2P model.  As a matter of fact, no one in my circle of raiders/pvp'ers/etc. uses f2p at all. 

If SWTOR was putting out content at a consistent rate, as it has been this year, I bet they could've kept their sub only plan.  However they launched a bit to early and light on some aspects of the game, which is why they went f2p.  I bet they are very happy with that plan as every time they launch a new cartel pack they are raking in the money.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on August 19, 2013, 09:20:43 PM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

It's lasted the previous 10+ years and is fuelling the social / mobile games boom. F2P isn't going away.

Besides, the future (and current) situation of MMO payment models is hybrid, not pure subs or pure F2P. Companies are happy to get $15 a month or happy to get $2 a hat.

The problem with thinking subs are coming back as the only true payment model is that you are only looking at one game in isolation, not the range of options available to you. Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality, and even in the area of quality F2P has picked up its socks a lot over the past few years.

WoW keeps its subs because it is WoW and has already leapt that hurdle of getting players to sign up for sub fees.

As for Carbine not launching this as F2P: it's been in development for what, 7 years? Those box costs are going straight towards paying some of that debt. It's an early adopter tax.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 10:02:50 PM
Quote
Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality

No.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 19, 2013, 11:00:13 PM

There's no reason to assume there's a "one size fits all" answer to the question of monetization.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 19, 2013, 11:36:31 PM

There's no reason to assume there's a "one size fits all" answer to the question of monetization.


This I very much agree with.  Starbucks and Mcdonalds both serve coffee and both are doing well in the coffee dept with no sense that one is hurting the other.  I don't think F2P is going to disappear completely but the fad will be very much dead sooner than later.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 20, 2013, 01:56:04 AM
I think as F2P becomes the norm paid games will have higher perceived value. In essence "this game is not free to play, it must be extra special!"

I think you are starting to see that now already, with people expressing "just let me pay up front for a good game, rather than being nickle-and-dimed for a mediocre 'free' one."

I don't think F2P is a fad, but I do think simple games where you pay obscene amounts for energy, gems and Smurfberries are a fad. Low barrier to entry, very little differentiation between titles, reliance on tricks rather than quality, etc. There's also the issue of someone playing a game for a while, stopping, then realizing they spent hundreds of dollars and didn't even really enjoy it. That can only happen so many times per person.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 20, 2013, 08:08:16 AM
For the majority posting here, 'stickiness' is a term that simply does not apply.  You will not pay to play for an extended period of time.  That extended period of time is the one month free grace period.  It's funny that f13 wants a sub model because if the f13 demographic was the majority demographic... well, no wonder so many companies are trying something besides the sub model.

I agree that for a 2013+ game, that game must must be something special to justify a sub model.  "Something special" must be better than GW2, RIFT or SWTOR AT LAUNCH, unless it is providing something new and unique.   If there is nothing new, such as in Wildstar, the game development will requires a large investment that will not be covered by box-sale alone.  Likely these games will be based upon something like "500K+ subs stay three months covers our costs, need six months to turn a profit and get them to the next expansion".

F2P has no such barrier.  Hell, most of the games launch and start taking cash in 'beta' and players understand that the game is not complete.  MWO, War Thunder, Warframe and Marvel Online are the games to watch.  MWO and War Thunder are fucking themselves over in bizarre designs and economy models and will likely fail.  But Warframe and Marvel Online are actually releasing interesting updates on a decent schedule.  Because it's F2P and the game design supports casual infrequent play the game is healthy regardless of any particular portion of the player base getting bored and moving on - because the  the player base has no barrier to re-entry.  Because there is no sub-model, gamers are also less likely to have a "screw it, I'm canceling, removing this from my hard drive and posting a good bye on the boards" moments.  This is the real power of F2P (I'm including box-sale only in this category) - this model is more sticky than a sub-based game.  There is no closure.  You can always return, and you don't need to feel dirty doing so because it's all casual.

I agree that game companies must return to their roots.  I think those roots are "box sale".  I think we'll see more and more adopting GW2, Starcraft and Diablo model and "online" will simply be something that is required of all games (see Borderlands, CoD, Battlefield, etc).  Most will implement some form of cosmetic or ease-of-use cash shop because who doesn't like alternate revenue streams?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 20, 2013, 10:06:16 AM
Anyone who thinks that f2p or b2p with cash shop are going to be replaced as the common/dominant form of mmo by the return of the old sub model is a fucking idiot.

Mortgages have fuckall to do with MMO subs. WoW is until proven otherwise the last of a dying breed of game where its the only game its players even think to play. We are well past the one online game at a time era. Which means subs are really unappealing to most gamers because I won't be playing your sub game during a month where GW2 releases something new or TSW releases something new or my static for some f2p wants to play again or I go on a Dota/LoL binge or Payday 2 or some other new hotness co-op game comes out or a friend finally decides to try Warframe or everyone goes back to D3 because of a patch. Any of those things will take up temporarily most of my online gaming time. I think all of those things reduce the appeal of the sub based mmo greatly.

We haven't seen an MMO with a really strong F2P model that wrecks bank accounts yet, but the potential is there to make a lot more then $15 a month from players on a consistent basis

I don't think you are correct at all that we haven't seen this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: satael on August 20, 2013, 11:01:18 AM
I'd guess (since there really isn't any hard data that I know to back me up) that there might be a market for subscription based MMOs in the future too but they'll be more niche/specialized and smaller in scale. MMOs with AAA production values (costs) will probably be b2p (at launch and maybe f2p later) with something like "season passes" to provide "subscription fee" in addition to DLC/cash shop.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 20, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
I know people that have played EQ for years, WoW for well over 5 years now.  People constantly buy the newest FiFA,Madden and COD games which are almost always the same game with a bit of shiny thrown in.  The previous is not the best comparison but the fact that people are sticky with games is without question, the only question is are the games good enough to be 'sticky'

You can say the ground here doesn't hang around mmo's long but honestly most of them have not been worth hanging around in.  If/When another game with a wow level of polish comes around i will be one played for years, whether it's a wow killer is besides the point.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on August 20, 2013, 11:57:58 AM
Here's an honest question to those thinking the F2P model is on borrowed time. How many MMOG's that are currently F2P do you honestly think would still be in existence if they were still sub-based?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 20, 2013, 12:17:05 PM
That's like asking how many indie games would be on shelves at walmart if steam didn't exist. I don't think F2P is going to disappear nor will F2P mmo's but they will be seen as the bargain bin product, which is what they actually are.  There simply aren't enough premium alternatives that are worth subscription fees bu as F2P becomes more dated you find more people even in the mobile game space just wanting a real game(and willing to pay extra for it) not a nickel and dime "buy coins!" model.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 20, 2013, 12:43:56 PM
That's like asking how many indie games would be on shelves at walmart if steam didn't exist. I don't think F2P is going to disappear nor will F2P mmo's but they will be seen as the bargain bin product, which is what they actually are.  There simply aren't enough premium alternatives that are worth subscription fees bu as F2P becomes more dated you find more people even in the mobile game space just wanting a real game(and willing to pay extra for it) not a nickel and dime "buy coins!" model.
Why do you think the general public is going to view F2P as budget rather than just the norm?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 20, 2013, 01:10:07 PM
In the current environment it appears impossible to deliver enough service and content to justify $15/mo.  All that have promised have failed. EvE and WoW get by grandfathered in under the old system because players have a decade invested.  Look, SWTOR was as AAA as it gets and it cratered under sub and prospered on f2p. We all know MMO do what is safe, and does subs look safer than f2p? EQN is not talking subs.  If Sony doesn't think it can make your "premium" MMO with their flagship property who can?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 20, 2013, 01:15:11 PM
Couldn't lowering the subscription price be another option?  Expectations at $15 a month are different from $10 or even $5 a month.  Perhaps even a hybrid model might emerge. 



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on August 20, 2013, 01:15:54 PM
In hindsight, SWTOR was WoW Vanilla with a Star Wars skin and fancied up quest-giver interactions.  It didn't have anything that WoW added post-launch, nor a customizable UI, all of which got cobbled together and patched in SLOWLY over the months post it's own launch.

I would not consider SWTOR on the same level as I would WoW if they both launched at the same time.  LotRO is more comparable.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 20, 2013, 01:20:25 PM
In hindsight, SWTOR was WoW Vanilla with a Star Wars skin and fancied up quest-giver interactions.
"Hindsight"? Sure, remember it that way.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 20, 2013, 01:21:08 PM
An MMO with a sub fee has a low upper bound on what people can spend, and even if it has micro-transactions and people can theoretically pay both for subs and the micro-transactions the monthly fee is a barrier to that unbounded spending.

I think sub fees make more sense for niche games that want to keep out the F2P rabble and have dedicated fans, especially if it can be at a longer schedule than monthly. So subscription MMOs become the boutique ones, not the mass market ones.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 20, 2013, 01:26:47 PM
I would not consider SWTOR on the same level as I would WoW if they both launched at the same time.

Neither would I, but I'd have them the other way around from you.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Flood on August 20, 2013, 01:31:04 PM

So here's some information that's actually about Wildstar:

Wildstar business model explained (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/the_business_model_of_wildstar.php)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on August 20, 2013, 01:37:02 PM
In hindsight, SWTOR was WoW Vanilla with a Star Wars skin and fancied up quest-giver interactions.
"Hindsight"? Sure, remember it that way.  :oh_i_see:

I will admit that I was psyched about SWTOR leading up to launch (thanks in part to you lot  :why_so_serious:), but then I hit that reality wall.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on August 20, 2013, 01:38:25 PM

So here's some information that's actually about Wildstar:

Wildstar business model explained (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/the_business_model_of_wildstar.php)

You're a page late and a BitCoin short.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: shiznitz on August 20, 2013, 03:18:35 PM

So here's some information that's actually about Wildstar:

Wildstar business model explained (http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/the_business_model_of_wildstar.php)

Is the gold/CREDD exchange rate fixed or floating? If it is floating, then this is quite a novel approach for "pay to play".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 20, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Novel as in exactly like EvE. F2P for the virtual rich. :drill:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on August 20, 2013, 03:57:46 PM
Swtor wasn't vanilla WoW.

Swtor was TBC WoW.


Get it right!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 20, 2013, 05:21:43 PM

If they can get the "achievers" to believe that Wildstar is the best place to earn and display an e-peen they might pay for the privilege. I assume that's what keeps wow going. But there's probably only space for one winner in that battle. Though subs also work for small games that are dominant in their niche (ie. Eve).

GW2, SWTOR didn't have a focus on raiding and achievement so either didn't try to fight the battle (GW2) or failed (SWTOR).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 20, 2013, 05:25:52 PM
GW2 is way more e-peen-y than SWTOR, if one of those is the game that didn't try to fight that fight, it's SWTOR. GW2 launched with an achievement system and ultra-grindy bling in the form of legendary weapons. (And don't get me started on the prestige event eye-bleedingly ugly back items that people like to show off with wings and tentacles and whatever else.)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on August 20, 2013, 08:42:07 PM
Quote
Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality

No.

Yes.

It's why more people play SWOR as a F2P than as a box cost + sub game. Or why Star Trek Online has been able to prosper.  It's why SOE is a F2P MMO developer.

The expectations around what you get for a $60 box cost plus $15 a month are too high for MMOs released after 2004 to meet for the mass market. Playing a game for free and trying to pick up a few dollars in here and there is a much easier way to get a title onto someone's HD.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 20, 2013, 09:22:27 PM
Why do you think the general public is going to view F2P as budget rather than just the norm?

A lot of people conflate f2p with Facebook games. Would be more appropriate to look at WoW vs GW2. Both very quality games, but WoW had a long time to form its stickiness whereas GW2 is more of a new breed of games developed to exist with narrower resource requirements and a more diversified business model.

Does that make GW2 a "budget" title? No. But neither does GW2 carry the "stink" of having been a subs game that went to f2p as a hail mary pass. Yes, those games that did still exist and provide fun and revenue to keep people employed. But not to the scale that company nor its investors originally thought. Too bad for them, but that's why some of the late 2000s games get a bad rap that applies to f2p as well.

Carbine is pretty confident in their game. They'll be launching at a good time. But they're also still old school of an MMO enough they're taking a bigger chance than they otherwise maybe should. We'll see a few months after launch.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 20, 2013, 10:00:56 PM
GW2 is not a F2P game. It's a B2P. There is a difference. There is still a $60 barrier of entry.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: apocrypha on August 21, 2013, 12:58:07 AM
GW2 is not a F2P game. It's a B2P. There is a difference. There is still a $60 barrier of entry.

And actually that's a significant barrier to many people. Myself and another friend have both been eyeing GW2 pretty much since it's launch but that cost put us off. It was only when we found a cheaper deal (£25, about $40) that we picked it up last week.

My impression (which may be wrong ofc) is that most people on these boards are working adults (also white males, but that's not really relevant here) to whom a $60 box cost or a monthly sub around $10-15 aren't difficult sums to find. That's not the case for a lot of people, especially young people at the moment - a group that's been disproportionally hit by the never-ending recession.

I don't know what the average income of the potential player base for Wildstar is, but there is very little doubt in my mind that a $60 box cost and a monthly sub is going to ensure Wildstar is a tiny, niche game right from the start. Without a sudden, massive economic recovery in the next 6 months (lol) I don't think it's going to break 300k subs. Ever.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: apocrypha on August 21, 2013, 12:58:53 AM
Oh and this CREDD thing? That'll just turn it into an enormous grind. Anyone who's played any MMOs in the last decade knows this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 21, 2013, 04:24:03 AM
GW2 is way more e-peen-y than SWTOR, if one of those is the game that didn't try to fight that fight, it's SWTOR. GW2 launched with an achievement system and ultra-grindy bling in the form of legendary weapons. (And don't get me started on the prestige event eye-bleedingly ugly back items that people like to show off with wings and tentacles and whatever else.)

I said GW2 does not have a focus on raiding, or achievement of that type since you can get the best weapons in the game off the auction house if you care too. It's not competing with raiding games whether that be WoW or Wildstar.

SWTOR is a game based on a flawed premise, so it's not really competing with anything.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 21, 2013, 07:29:50 AM
If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.

I think when people start realizing how much they spend on store items and crap they'll realize they aren't that far off or exceeding sub costs. 


This is exactly it, it's a cash grab by publishers and people are already becoming savvy to it.

If they are spending more than they paid in subs I would question how savvy they are.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 21, 2013, 07:41:38 AM
It's kind of a question of perceived value.

People might be okay with paying more per month in a F2P game than they would just paying a sub because the money they spend in F2P gets them stuff you normally can't buy for cash in a sub game.

In WoW you can buy sparkle ponies and a fancy helmet graphic. In RIFT you can literally just drop some cash, buy actual gear. Some people might view that as worth dropping $20 in a month once instead of just $15.

The question is what/how much do you sell and that kinda determines what audience you get.

Do you limit time and progression to either a grind or cash infusion like Spiral Knights?
Do you just have a generally free, unrestricted game but sell cosmetic doodads for people who want to play dress up?
Do you have a generally free, unrestricted game but sell new major content in packs?
Do you sell a sub with unrestricted access to everything, but allow people to run "Free" accounts where users can purchase individual account features they want?

I dunno if there's a golden answer in there somewhere that guarantees explosive popularity and profitability, or if the first thing required before a F2P model be successful is the game actually being good.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 21, 2013, 09:06:02 AM
Quote
Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality

No.

Yes.

It's why more people play SWOR as a F2P than as a box cost + sub game. Or why Star Trek Online has been able to prosper.  It's why SOE is a F2P MMO developer.

The expectations around what you get for a $60 box cost plus $15 a month are too high for MMOs released after 2004 to meet for the mass market. Playing a game for free and trying to pick up a few dollars in here and there is a much easier way to get a title onto someone's HD.

The market is also increasingly saturated now too. Not a lot of people will pay 60$ just to try game 45 out of 1000000 and then do it again and again.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 21, 2013, 09:08:32 AM
I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 21, 2013, 09:10:13 AM

The expectations around what you get for a $60 box cost plus $15 a month are too high for MMOs released after 2004 to meet for the mass market. Playing a game for free and trying to pick up a few dollars in here and there is a much easier way to get a title onto someone's HD.

The market is also increasingly saturated now too. Not a lot of people will pay 60$ just to try game 45 out of 1000000 and then do it again and again.

With the content updates from GW2 clocking in at 1 every 2 weeks a sub game better have one a week to justify the sub, IMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 21, 2013, 09:16:04 AM
I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.

But... but... VOICE ACTING!   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 21, 2013, 09:39:31 AM
I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.
I think you guys are pulling out True Scotsmen here. If SWTOR succeeded with subs, you guys would be saying "Look subs are awesome", but SWTOR failed so you say "Look its not subs fault SWTOR is a shitty game."  Bottom-line SWTOR was AAA attempt with subs that failed and was turned around with sublessness. Because it failed doesn't change the fact that it was a AAA attempt, and should be included as a data point in a discussion about if AAA MMO games better off with sub or subless.

Tons of preference bias, just because you as a customer don't like it doesn't mean  that it's the best thing for the game or games in general.

Also, hybrid model is the way best to stop me from playing. What you want me to pay union dues, and nickel and dime me? Go fuck yourself.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dren on August 21, 2013, 10:02:25 AM
I'm not looking for F2P games to let me spend less money overall.  I'm looking to them to allow me to spend my money on games I actually enjoy.  I will never again spend $60+ on an MMO Box.  The success rate in entertaining me for that price has been too low in the past for me to change my ways.  I'm also not a fan of paying a monthly sub just to check back into a game to see if things got fixed.  You can read all the hype you want about an MMO, but you can't judge anything until you play it.  This isn't gambling, so why treat it that way.

I don't even mind pay-to-win models because ultimately I do believe a good game company deserves to get paid.  It is why they are in business.  Hell, I'll pay more than I used to pay for subs as long as I'm having a great time.  That's why I play games.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 21, 2013, 10:29:24 AM
SWTOR was a lot of money thrown at an inexperienced and frankly underqualified dev team that was told not to do anything innovative and to just copy wow.
I played SWTOR, it didn't have anything near the level of quality and polish you expect in a triple A title.  Just because you waste a lot of money on something doesn't automatically make it good.

This isn't revisionist history here, SWTOR is just a bad indicator that subs Do/Don't work.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 21, 2013, 11:09:26 AM
SWTOR was a lot of money thrown at an inexperienced and frankly underqualified dev team that was told not to do anything innovative and to just copy wow.
I played SWTOR, it didn't have anything near the level of quality and polish you expect in a triple A title.  Just because you waste a lot of money on something doesn't automatically make it good.

This isn't revisionist history here, SWTOR is just a bad indicator that subs Do/Don't work.

 :facepalm:

Unlike Wildstar. You really ought to stop, those goalposts seem heavy.

While we are at it do you want to get the excuses for TESO and FF14 cratering out of the way?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 21, 2013, 11:24:18 AM
Lakov,

Some question to ask;

What was the number of paying customer that MMO X had at time of transition to F2P?

Look at http://www.mmodata.net/. Notice that SWTOR was in the big leagues at the point of transition.  Notice the arc - folks played for three months and quit.

How does this compare to other sub based MMOs over the last five years?

For MMO RPGs it's a pattern.  AoC, WAR and RIFT all follow the same arc.  The fact is that none of those were bad games for the part of the game where they focused most of their effort.  Apparently MMOs are really hard to make and customers get bored of them really quickly.

"They're all bad games!"   :facepalm:  Ok, please point to a good sub-based game released in the last five years that proves the opposite.  If you cannot point to a single sub-based game that has launched in the post-WoW era that has not follow the three month sub arc you should really consider that "sub-based game done well that proves they are viable could be a white rhino".  EVERY one of these companies wanted that sweet sweet money hose.  None of them achieved it.

The fact is that you are bringing bias.  You didn't like the game, and you think it's because the game is bad.  I think it's because you've already played WoW.  You've changed.  MMO customers have changed.  WoW is now the minimum bar to entry, not the high point.  The especially tough thing about that sentence is that WoW was made during Blizzards high point as a game manufacturer and they were the clear best in the business at that time so that low bar is actually pretty high.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 21, 2013, 11:46:42 AM
There are to many MMO's for people to be married to them for years anymore. Most of them are the same anyway, except for the new FPS/Action games coming on the horizon.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 21, 2013, 11:49:07 AM
There are to many MMO's for people to be married to them for years anymore.

What?  I'd buy that argument if any of them were worth playing longer than 3 months.  It's not about choices.  It's about someone making a game worth sticking with.  A subscription model works if the game developer provides adequate quality and content to justify the fee.  The fact that most don't doesn't mean it isn't possible.  It just means that the industry is largely terrible at doing it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: PalmTrees on August 21, 2013, 11:51:34 AM
A devspeak video on crowd control, http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/21/wildstar-locks-you-down-for-a-look-at-crowd-control/#continued

You have some button mashing ways to shorten cc times if you're hit by them. Blind makes the screen dark. Disorient remaps movement keys. Pickup your weapon when disarmed. Can build up stacks to cc bosses. Also, at the end, maybe a tease of what happens when you die.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 21, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
There are to many MMO's for people to be married to them for years anymore.

What?  I'd buy that argument if any of them were worth playing longer than 3 months.  It's not about choices.  It's about someone making a game worth sticking with.  A subscription model works if the game developer provides adequate quality and content to justify the fee.  The fact that most don't doesn't mean it isn't possible.  It just means that the industry is largely terrible at doing it.

Right, there are more MMO games now than ever before because no one finds them enjoyable, even the free ones.  Lets be fair, the original MMO design was a labor camp that had the only jobs available. Its only now that games need to be fun beyond being a novelty/unique.

Lots of the new crop of games are fun, subjectively. But there are just to many of them to bother with being married to them for years anymore. Why would you, a new one comes out every three months.

Is EQ1 worth playing longer than 3 months at 15$? Hell no. There are many better options, its not the only gig anymore.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 21, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
Look I'm just baffled people are saying SWTOR was a good game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 21, 2013, 12:27:06 PM
Lots of the new crop of games are fun, subjectively. But there are just to many of them to bother with being married to them for years anymore. Why would you, a new one comes out every three months.

You pay a sub because a game merits it.  The number of other choices is irrelevent if those choices are awful.  There are more choices than ever in the MMO market yet people still pay WoW a monthly fee. It's not about other choices, it's about value for your dollar.  The same could be said for hamburgers and sub sandwiches.  Some last while others don't.  Adding more options is less the issue than the perceived value.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on August 21, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
Look I'm just baffled people are saying SWTOR was a good game.

It was a decent game till you got to the end. Nothing wrong with that. I don't read the same book for 10 years ether.

There are more choices than ever in the MMO market yet people still pay WoW a monthly fee.

That has more to do with peoples time invested then it does with "fun" in my mind. Guilds, friends, and years pumped into it killing murlocs for prestige. Many will never leave that. I'm simply stating that the days of a MMO being a life choice are likely over. There are too many choices for people, and lower price points.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 21, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
I had fun playing SWTOR; hell even the first couple of raids were pretty fun.

Shame about everything after that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: amiable on August 21, 2013, 02:08:50 PM
I think the only aspect of the game at launch that was truly, hilariously and utterly clownshoes was the RvR section.  Everything else was fun or at least passable.  I had a good time for the few months I played.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Margalis on August 21, 2013, 02:38:57 PM
SWTOR offered commodity game play.

Two years before it came out I said it was going to be Space WoW and that's exactly what it was. That was the extent of their ambition and they never even bothered pretending they wanted it to be anything more than Space WoW. There are a lot of games like WoW, including WoW itself. You can't charge for that - there are too many competing similar options many of which are free.

You can charge for something if it's something no other game offers. People pay for Eve maybe in part due to grandfathering but also because there aren't many direct competitors - if you want to play a game like Eve you have to pay to play Eve. If you want to play a game like SWTOR you can play 50 other games.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Segoris on August 21, 2013, 03:07:48 PM
I think the only aspect of the game at launch that was truly, hilariously and utterly clownshoes was the RvR section. 

I'd add class balance (both pve and pvp imo), travel, the AH, really buggy dungeons, itemization (receiving the other faction's drops was always fun), game performance (memory leaks galore), and the UI to that list of clownshoes.

Passable is probably the right word for the crafting professions. The system itself was okay, the professions and products not so much as it was pointless to even train in some of them.

At least they got huttball right.

You can charge for something if it's something no other game offers. People pay for Eve maybe in part due to grandfathering but also because there aren't many direct competitors - if you want to play a game like Eve you have to pay to play Eve. If you want to play a game like SWTOR you can play 50 other games.

This sums it up nicely. Yes, there's the argument that the MMO market is huge, and it is, but that's why subs leave after 3 months.....other fish in the sea and all that. I also am curious about how many of those 3month subs are impulse buyers that buy into marketing and think that a 3month sub will save them money on a shitty game that they end up only playing for a couple of weeks but the sub simply did not run out until 3 months post-launch.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 21, 2013, 03:17:32 PM
This is exactly why you can't use SWTOR of an example of why subs don't work. If the game is good enough to merit a subscription people will pay it, F2P and B2P games are passable but none of them are revolutionary or incredibly fun, they just ARE.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 21, 2013, 03:37:57 PM
I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.

It's either the 2nd or 3rd most successful MMO currently in the Western market, depending on where GW2 falls. They're printing money (anecdotal evidence only, but I see no reason to doubt it) since the move to F2P; I'd guess they make more than GW2 off their shop simply because they have far more interesting things for sale. What exactly more do you need for something to be a 'contender'?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 21, 2013, 03:40:20 PM
I hate to interrupt this SWTOR thread, but there is this new Wildstar video about Crowd Control out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2G_8c-u2qc


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 21, 2013, 04:02:11 PM
I hate to interrupt this SWTOR thread, but there is this new Wildstar video about Crowd Control out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2G_8c-u2qc
If by new, you mean posted a page ago.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 21, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
I hate to interrupt this SWTOR thread, but there is this new Wildstar video about Crowd Control out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2G_8c-u2qc
If by new, you mean posted a page ago.

Hmm, I even scanned the last page before posting.  Oh well.  I guess I got caught up in all the TOR bullshit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 21, 2013, 05:21:25 PM
I'm a little confused to why people seem to think SWTOR was in any way a serious contender. It's like pointing out a boat full of holes and then using it as an example of why you should just build planes instead of boats because obviously boats sink.

It's either the 2nd or 3rd most successful MMO currently in the Western market, depending on where GW2 falls. They're printing money (anecdotal evidence only, but I see no reason to doubt it) since the move to F2P; I'd guess they make more than GW2 off their shop simply because they have far more interesting things for sale. What exactly more do you need for something to be a 'contender'?

What was swtor's max number 1million? I'm sure they made a lot of money but that's nowhere near the ceiling for online games and if you are suggesting they would prefer being f2p you are crazy. I'm sure they would have loved to sit at 1mil + subs and never switch over but they can't afford that.  F2p makes money sure but it's not optimal


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 21, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
I like their concepts on CC mitigation except the button mash.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on August 21, 2013, 06:50:57 PM
Their blind isn't hardcore enough.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on August 21, 2013, 06:55:18 PM
Not to mention that the button mash will have a mash-cap anyway. Meaning, no matter how fast you mash you are gonna be stunned for at least two seconds. Depending on how fast or slow you mash that time can dwindle between two and six seconds.

So basically you are still unable to use your character for x-time, but the mashing distracts you from thinking at how annoying that is. It's ok in PvE, but I already hate it in PvP.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 21, 2013, 07:03:40 PM
You mean there's people who aren't going to bind that to some sort of (internal or external) macro ASAP?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 21, 2013, 07:10:59 PM

SWTOR was deeply flawed because too much of their money went into story, so it was worth a sub until you finished the story and then it wasn't. And they couldn't make enough story to keep people subbed long enough to make money-hats. It proves nothing about sub models other than they stuffed up.

I do think the dominant, achievement oriented, game can still probably pull a sub. People who will invest a lot of time in their character having the ultimate shinies, PvP titles and difficult achievements plus a crowd of people playing because their friends are, they dream they'll be a future bad-ass one day. It's the same way a small handful of shooters grab all the attention because they are the big-name games.

GW2 releases content but it's not the type to appeal to these people. Getting a new miniature or a new weapons skin? Serious achiever types aren't interested. It may keep the casuals happy, but they're less likely to be interested in subbing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Zetor on August 21, 2013, 11:41:11 PM
I like their concepts on CC mitigation except the button mash.
Champions' CC system works the same way, and it was annoying there too. Also, assuming the 'break out button' is completely spammable (no GCD), this will screw high-ping players even more.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: UnSub on August 22, 2013, 01:33:11 AM
Look I'm just baffled people are saying SWTOR was a good game.

SWOR was okay. It is brought up as a US$300m+ argument that WoW could be beaten if only a company put the time and money in.  I did see you called it underfunded above, but that's not true - it was overfunded.

The problem with subs is that players are no longer willing to wait for a game to be good. Almost every MMO had a terrible launch, and launch is the worst time to play a MMO anyway, but it's at that point in time a lot of players decide if it is worth paying for or not. A sub fee puts a time limit on that decision period too, with a significant proportion of players bailing in the first 30 to 90 days.

If you charge a sub fee only you are competing head-to-head with WoW and that's a fight that's left a string of contenders broken and battered. There's a theory of customer commitment that says if you want to get customers to switch you have to create an offer that is 3x to 9x better than their existing offer, because inertia is a powerful force that keeps customers doing what they've always done. Now, at launch, can someone create a sub-based MMO that is 3x to 9x better than what WoW offers today?

Content-wise: no. But cost-wise / pricing model-wise? Yes, and that at least gets your game onto player HDs.

(Would studios / publishers prefer players paid subs? Yes, absolutely. Which is why hybrid payment models are common.)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 22, 2013, 08:25:35 AM
Wow, I can't believe people are bringing up SWTOR as a great game that was worth the money and was successful. GG F13.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 22, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
I'm sure they would have loved to sit at 1mil + subs and never switch over but they can't afford that.  F2p makes money sure but it's not optimal
You keep comparing to a hypothetical.  I am sure the SOE loves to makes as much money as possible. They make more money subless than they did subful.  That's the reality producers of new games have to deal with. Sinji level of delusions here. Discount all real world examples and pontificate how great things would be based a dream MMO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 22, 2013, 09:36:37 AM
Wow, I can't believe people are bringing up SWTOR as a great game that was worth the money and was successful. GG F13.

You're new here, aren't you?   :why_so_serious:

I enjoyed SWTOR.  I just wish that it had held my interest longer.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dren on August 22, 2013, 09:48:20 AM
Lots of the new crop of games are fun, subjectively. But there are just to many of them to bother with being married to them for years anymore. Why would you, a new one comes out every three months.

You pay a sub because a game merits it.  The number of other choices is irrelevent if those choices are awful.  There are more choices than ever in the MMO market yet people still pay WoW a monthly fee. It's not about other choices, it's about value for your dollar.  The same could be said for hamburgers and sub sandwiches.  Some last while others don't.  Adding more options is less the issue than the perceived value.

For me, the high number of "free" choices pulled me from sub based games just to try it.  Trying an MMO takes weeks realistilcally.  Whether they are bad or good, I was pullled and probably got pulled again once the first try didn't pan out (hell there are probably 2-3 more I want to try once I have the time.)  This is the reason I left WoW a long time ago and never (ok once) went back.  Due to GW2's payment model, I still log in several times a week even through all that.  WoW? No.  I'd love to pay for a good sub game, but the track record since WoW has been terrible.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dren on August 22, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
Wow, I can't believe people are bringing up SWTOR as a great game that was worth the money and was successful. GG F13.

You're new here, aren't you?   :why_so_serious:

I enjoyed SWTOR.  I just wish that it had held my interest longer.

Same.  I logged in a few times this week and enjoyed another few hours....then lost interest again.  The voice acting actually shocked me since I forgot it and not many other games have it, but it isn't near enough to save it.  Too repetitive.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 22, 2013, 10:47:59 AM
I'm sure they would have loved to sit at 1mil + subs and never switch over but they can't afford that.  F2p makes money sure but it's not optimal
You keep comparing to a hypothetical.  I am sure the SOE loves to makes as much money as possible. They make more money subless than they did subful.  That's the reality producers of new games have to deal with. Sinji level of delusions here. Discount all real world examples and pontificate how great things would be based a dream MMO.

Um, no shit?  I'm not arguing SWTOR isn't making more money as F2P because it's a shit game that can only afford to be F2P.  You seem to be inferring that they would have gone F2P no matter what and that is ludicrous.  They probably would have tried to add a cash shop to nickle and dime motherfuckers all day because it is EA of course but to say they want to give up box sales or subscriptions intentionally not only has no basis in reality but makes no sense.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 22, 2013, 11:34:12 AM
Look if you a producer of a AAA MMO that is going to release in the next couple you have to basic options: follow WoW or GW2.
If you follow WoW, you must hit the ball out of park on your first swing or you lose.
If you follow GW2, you can make a ton of money whether or not your are a homerun or not.

SWTOR,STO,LOTRO,DDO and a bunch others tried the first and settled for the second. Now maybe that's the right way, swing hard for the homerun. But I think they wasted a ton of money and potential retooling to the second and I wouldn't follow that route for a new game.




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 22, 2013, 11:46:51 AM
That's just the same argument people were making about wow when EQ was big. Also, there's no reason a game needs to ever be as big as wow to be wildly successful.  There's a huge difference between 100k subs and 11mil and anywhere in the middle of that is a billion dollar property that any company would love to have.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 22, 2013, 06:06:50 PM
Yeah, Champions is what turned me off on the "pound on the keyboard!" mechanism.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 22, 2013, 06:23:19 PM
That's just the same argument people were making about wow when EQ was big. Also, there's no reason a game needs to ever be as big as wow to be wildly successful.  There's a huge difference between 100k subs and 11mil and anywhere in the middle of that is a billion dollar property that any company would love to have.
And yet, nobody has managed it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 22, 2013, 06:43:20 PM
So subs are the future because people are willing to pay subs for things, the problem is nobody has made a game worth a sub since wow.  But they are coming, you just wait.  The future i tell you. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 22, 2013, 08:28:31 PM
That's just the same argument people were making about wow when EQ was big.
When EQ was big, the number of real contenders could be counted on one hand. There were dozens of MMOs even then, but most were small MUDs with some graphics, or Asian titles we conveniently lumped into "Lineage1!!/". For common arguments, it was EQ vs AC vs UO. And they all had the same model, all existed by cannabalazing the same hardcore MMO gamer geek subculture of the even-then largely console video game business.

Nowadays there are dozens of real contenders, with as many business models, with such wide appeal you've got fucking grandmothers and US Ambassadors as guild leaders and shit. We keep wanting to compare GW2 to DDO to EQ2 but the comparisons are as forced as the basis of those comparisons. And the companies certainly don't give a shit about the arbitrary equivalencies we draw.

However, this part:
Quote
Also, there's no reason a game needs to ever be as big as wow to be wildly successful.  There's a huge difference between 100k subs and 11mil and anywhere in the middle of that is a billion dollar property that any company would love to have.
... is on the right track.

GW2 "subs" vs WoW "subs" is not a conversation. If you get down to ARPU over time, sure maybe. But we don't get public access to that stuff, and certainly don't get profit per player. So we're left with "GW2 has fewer players because <someone I know> says so", and even that is irrelevant. Because the now 8mm WoW players, of which I think half pay what we consider the normal monthly subs fee monetizes very differently than the we-have-no-idea-how-many GW2 player pay nothing, vs paying a little, vs paying a lot.

Basically we're reduced to "I like game X over Y because of <largely personal reasons>". Which is fine, because let's face it, not like the industry ever listened to us anyway  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on August 22, 2013, 08:32:22 PM
So subs are the future because people are willing to pay subs for things, the problem is nobody has made a game worth a sub since wow.  But they are coming, you just wait.  The future i tell you.

Which is fucking hilariously stupid considering the biggest operations of our time have all failed or are in the process of failure:
-EA/Bioware.
-Whatever Blizz does next (Titan is dead at this point right?)
-SOE
-Bethesda
-SquareEnix

Well guys when Destiny comes out and has subs and doesn't fail that will prove that subs are legit I tell you. If it doesn't its because Destiny made xyz mistakes so that doesn't count even if they go f2p and the game goes on to make a bunch of money and live for a few years as a f2p title.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 22, 2013, 10:45:11 PM
 :facepalm:

Just because failed games use subscription models does not mean that subscriptions are a failure.  That is the worst possible logic.

A


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Kageru on August 22, 2013, 11:05:48 PM

The fact that firefall can still take itself seriously is the best evidence of how dire the MMO market is.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 23, 2013, 07:43:59 AM
:facepalm:

Just because failed games use subscription models does not mean that subscriptions are a failure.  That is the worst possible logic.

A

It's a failed model because the F2P model is healthy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 23, 2013, 09:03:37 AM
Of course F2P is "healthy" it's easy to swindle people out of money when they don't think they are paying much at a time.

You know where most of us probably first tried a F2P model? It was the internet, back in the pay per MB days.  There's a reason most companies no longer use this model, it's because customers would much rather just pay a flat fee than have to worry about every single minute online.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on August 23, 2013, 09:18:13 AM
Just because failed games use subscription models does not mean that subscriptions are a failure.  That is the worst possible logic.

I tried this a few pages ago.  Give up now and save your sanity.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on August 23, 2013, 09:19:50 AM
Of course F2P is "healthy" it's easy to swindle people out of money when they don't think they are paying much at a time.

You know where most of us probably first tried a F2P model? It was the internet, back in the pay per MB days.  There's a reason most companies no longer use this model, it's because customers would much rather just pay a flat fee than have to worry about every single minute online.

That analogy is nonsensical.  What part of the pay per MB internet access was free?  That's a metered pay system, like electricity, water or gas.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 23, 2013, 10:21:54 AM
Of course F2P is "healthy" it's easy to swindle people out of money when they don't think they are paying much at a time.

You know where most of us probably first tried a F2P model? It was the internet, back in the pay per MB days.  There's a reason most companies no longer use this model, it's because customers would much rather just pay a flat fee than have to worry about every single minute online.

What the fuck are you talking about?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 23, 2013, 10:42:46 AM
Of course F2P is "healthy" it's easy to swindle people out of money when they don't think they are paying much at a time.
[best to ignore this analogy]

How much of your own bias is driving your argument?  Could a really good game not also be successful adopting a F2P model (see LoL)?

Try this thought experiment - which model is more likely to have existing customers return to play again later?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 23, 2013, 10:46:01 AM
Just because failed games use subscription models does not mean that subscriptions are a failure.  That is the worst possible logic.

I tried this a few pages ago.  Give up now and save your sanity.
Too late. He is deep is Sinji-land. He love X and hates Y.  Every example of Y's success doesn't count because its ghetto. Every example X failing wasn't X's fault.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 23, 2013, 11:08:13 AM
Bullshit, I play LOL and it's a great F2P model, this does not mean every F2P model is a good one.  LOL allows you to play the game with little to no distractions in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: shiznitz on August 23, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Abelian75 on August 23, 2013, 11:19:48 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think don't think Lakov is trying to say that F2P games are all failures and suck.  I think he's just saying that you can't say that the subscription model is totally dead based on the fact that recent subscription-based games have not done very well.  That's not all that hard a statement to defend, really.

I think it's fair to say that the F2P model is good at extracting more money from a rapidly cycling playerbase.  It has a low barrier to entry, and, at a guess, I'd imagine people tend to spend most/all of the money they are going to spend fairly quickly.   So it makes sense that 'failed' MMOs that convert to it have a massive improvement in cash flow;  they've shown that they can't keep people for all that long, so the benefits of the subscription model don't come into effect.  Much better to convert to F2P, as it's better for what the game ended up being.

That's not to say F2P inherently means a game is bad, obviously.  But in the case of MMOs that start out sub-based and end up F2P, I think it's reasonable to conclude that they were hoping initially for a very sticky game, and didn't get one.  Certainly no post-WoW MMO has been anything resembling broad, long-term appeal, so yeah, obviously for them, F2P is going to be an improvement for cash flow.

in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

GW2 and Neverwinter do this, right?  This is pretty damn common, I think.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: rattran on August 23, 2013, 11:25:38 AM
in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

Neverwinter has that exact mechanic. You found a Nightmare/Feywild Chest! Pay us $1.50 for a key, fucker.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: tazelbain on August 23, 2013, 11:29:44 AM
Yep, don't mind it in GW2 since its ignorable junk.

The STO lockbox seem more exploitive.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 23, 2013, 11:32:07 AM
Yup that's exactly what ruined NW for me, stuff like that throws you out of a game.  NW is absolutely the worst at F2P but there are many others close to that bad.  F2P is not the devil and neither is 3d movies but as in both they are both fads and both can be done well but more often done really half assed.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 23, 2013, 12:15:01 PM
All of Perfect World's F2P stuff is pretty exploitative/cynically designed really.

Too bad since Neverwinter and Blacklight were kinda neat.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 23, 2013, 12:16:35 PM
Quote
That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

GW2 and Neverwinter do this, right?  This is pretty damn common, I think.

I have at least 3 FTP games  currently installed that have that exact mechanic. It's super common as far as I know.

My kid plays Clone Wars Adventures and those fucking boxes drop like flies. It's a real pain in the ass telling him over and over again that I'm not spending $100 to buy keys to unlock them all.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 23, 2013, 12:19:19 PM
Hell, even Team Fortress 2 has that mechanic.  They added it to Counter Strike: GO last week also.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: angry.bob on August 23, 2013, 12:21:25 PM
Hell, even Team Fortress 2 has that mechanic.  They added it to Counter Strike: GO last week also.

Wow... What do the Counterstrike boxes have in them? I haven't played in years but it would be so easy to fuck up the game with anything but purely cosmetic stuff.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 23, 2013, 12:23:54 PM
Hell, even Team Fortress 2 has that mechanic.  They added it to Counter Strike: GO last week also.

Wow... What do the Counterstrike boxes have in them? I haven't played in years but it would be so easy to fuck up the game with anything but purely cosmetic stuff.

It's all purely cosmetic. Gun skins and such.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 23, 2013, 12:41:28 PM
That is one petty ass reason to not like F2P.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 23, 2013, 01:03:43 PM
Gameplay suffers when you try and monetize every little thing, I can't believe I even need to try and defend this concept.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on August 23, 2013, 01:15:08 PM
It's an MMOG. The entire existence of actual gameplay is up for debate. Suffering practically defines the very nature of MMOGness.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 23, 2013, 02:17:48 PM
Bullshit, I play LOL and it's a great F2P model, this does not mean every F2P model is a good one.  LOL allows you to play the game with little to no distractions in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

You want every side of the conversation slanted to support your premise.  You hypothesize that someone could make an MMO RPG that folks would be willing to pay a sub for in this F2P-dominanted market.  Then you seem to deny that it's possible that there are F2P models that wouldn't fuck up these types of games.  It's far easier to create a F2P model that doesn't suck than it is to create a great MMO RPG.

I respond with, "Could a really good game not also be successful adopting a F2P model" and I point out that there IS a really good game, in a different genre (MOBA versus MMO RPG), that uses the F2P model in a way that doesn't impinge upon gameplay whatsoever. 

And you say, "Bullshit, I play LOL and it's a great F2P model, this does not mean every F2P model is a good one."  I wasn't saying that all F2P models are great.  I think most F2P models suck.  But I"m actually able to point to a couple of games (LoL, Team Fortress, GW2) that are doing well and don't have a suck-ass F2P model.  You are unable to point to a game that has come out in the last five years that has been 'good', let alone 'good enough to justify a sub' - because they don't exist.

If I followed your arguing technique I would respond with, "bullshit, you played SWTOR, the number 2 MMO RGP in the market and you say that sucks so it's clearly not possible to have an MMO RGP that doesn't suck", which would invalidate your initial premise of "someone could make a great MMO RGP".

If you hate F2P and yearn for the days of sub-based, just say it.  It seems to me you are saying, "in this current market it's totally possible that someone is smart enough to build an awesome MMO RGP, but dumb enough to not consider the current marketplace and hobble themselves with a business model that customers do not seem to want".

Which is why I'm saying, that's not possible as people adopting rocket-power-ponies as the preferred mode of travel.  Yeah, it's possible.  No, it's not going to happen.  If someone is smart enough to build a great game they are at least smart enough to know that their business model has to adopt to the times.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 23, 2013, 02:45:39 PM
 :headscratch:

Half of those quotes weren't even in response to what you've been saying.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on August 23, 2013, 08:30:56 PM
Of course F2P is "healthy" it's easy to swindle people out of money when they don't think they are paying much at a time.

You know where most of us probably first tried a F2P model? It was the internet, back in the pay per MB days.  There's a reason most companies no longer use this model, it's because customers would much rather just pay a flat fee than have to worry about every single minute online.

For starters, and again, we all need to be honest with ourselves, privately if not publically:We are all going to pay whatetever the fuck is asked of us for whatever the fuck we're interested in at that time. That's an axiom that poweres whole industries, random forum assertions aside.

But with that said:

Lakov: f2p workks for the inverse of your point. Subscriptions eventually make people think about their recurring investment whereas MTX never does because "eh fuckit it's only $0.99" so what"? f2p strokes the same part of our animal brain as slot machine do. Nobody gives a shit about a quarter or even fifty cents. But charge a recuring entrance fee to the Luxor in Vegas? No way.

Subs compel thinking. MTX is pure impulse. The latter exists because biologically, businesses do not WANT thinking!

tl;dr: when the hell am I getting my beta invite?!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 23, 2013, 09:38:04 PM
I guess I'm just broken.  I'd much rather budget 15 bucks into my monthly spending that worry about keeping track of this and that.  I mean to the point where I haven't actually put money into any free to play games besides LoL where you buy things a la carte.  In the few other cases when I have spent money on other F2P games, it has always been the monthly subscription option (LotRO and Planetside 2).   

That isn't even to say anything of the idea that it totally and utterly shatters any illusion that your RPG is actually its own little world when I can buy things for cash or that it has game design ramifications that I abhor. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 23, 2013, 10:59:16 PM
I'm with Malakili; I don't mind paying the $15 particularly because it's a small, recurring charge that I don't have to think about. Having to whip out the CC for some MTX item in an F2P game gives me time to think about it; I much prefer a monthly fee to access the content over being nickle-and-dimed. I've resubbed to EQ2 for a few months here and there, but the only times I've bought things in their cash shop it's been with the free points they give you for subbing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Flood on August 24, 2013, 12:32:07 AM
I agree with the three previous posts.  If I find a game fun, or initially interesting enough I guess to be more specific, I'll pay the monthly sub.  If I can't spare $15 a month on something that is (hypothetically) going to provide me X hours of entertainment then I probably need to re-prioritize some things in my life regarding my finances anyway.  Plus I feel like a monthly sub is at least a small barrier to the mouth breathers and interweb riff raff. 

I find the MTX thing ranging from annoying to almost breaking the flow of a game for me.  I don't want to see advertisements, no matter how cleverly crafted, in the game I'm playing to escape reality.  And while there's definitely a spectrum of just how "pay2win" FTP games are, they all are to some degree or another.  Why wouldn't they be?  How else are they going to generate revenue?  "Hey we spent the money to develop a game that has no initial cost to get into and has no in-game incentives designed into it at all for us to recoup the cost of said development, much less an ongoing revenue stream."  Yeah.

Eh, whatever.  Wildstar - send beta invite plzktx


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: apocrypha on August 24, 2013, 02:30:42 AM
I however am not prepared to pay a $15/£10 monthly sub to a game any more.

F2P can work and some companies have done it in a way that suits me. The ones that spring to mind that work for me are Guild Wars 2, Warframe, STO, Path of Exile and World of Tanks. Some that have really got it wrong were Neverwinter Online, WarThunder, SWTOR, MWO.

If the cash items & services are mostly cosmetic, reasonably priced, additions to an existing generous free supply of whatever and (importantly) not shoved down your throat every 5 seconds then I am happy to contribute some money to the game. I pretty much never pay as much as $15/month on any game I'm playing (or combination of games) and I am very good at keeping mental track of how much I spend on F2P titles.

If I feel I'm being gouged or forced to pay for essential services & items, or if the entire game is designed as a giant advert for the cash shop (hello NWO) then I'm just not interested.

For me, a box cost plus a monthly sub is a relic of the past. A game would have to be stupendous for me to consider that. Wildstar is not going to be that game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Phred on August 24, 2013, 04:06:22 AM
That is one petty ass reason to not like F2P.

Ya as I've said before I find it baffling how ppl get their panties in a bunch over those stupid chests. It's like a tax on ppl who failed math or something.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on August 24, 2013, 05:23:50 AM
There was some game recently that wouldn't let me delete them, can't remember which one. That was over the line.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 09:43:37 AM
Lakov is right here. There are some very good F2P models out ther that work and make tons of money, like LOL. There are a lot of mediocre F2P games out there tha make money like SOE's stable. There are a lot of awful F2P games that either make some money or make a lot but the games are shit.

That has no bearing on Sub based games. You can not infer that because SWTOR failed and went f2p that subs are worthless. SWTOR's first incarnation was worthless. F2P just allowed more people to play and drop 5 bucks into their terrible F2P setup.

The trend is that really bland, awful, failing, old or whatever games went free to play to save themselves. What everyone here is stupidily saying is that all those games failed because they were sub based. When SWTOR launched they sold a shit load of boxes and ALL of those people were willing to drop $15 a month.

If a developer could actually make a good game, they will get subscriptions. Unfortunately MMOG developers are really fucking bad and either don't develop games with standard features, or they never make anything new.

The only things I'm interested in the future are games like what EQN is promising that I'm sure won't actually be a reality. Then there are a string of space sims like Star Citizens and CCP's Valkyrie.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 10:53:08 AM
It's not SWTOR, its every single freaking game since WoW.  Everything but WoW is either dead or F2P or delusional, we can damn well infer something from that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 24, 2013, 11:46:05 AM
It's not SWTOR, its every single freaking game since WoW.  Everything but WoW is either dead or F2P or delusional, we can damn well infer something from that.

Yes, that F2P is a great model to use if you have a bad game and still want to make money.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 12:40:00 PM
I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 01:58:32 PM
I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.

The only data that we have is devs continue to make crappy games and when they fail the go f2p. Look at swtor millions signed up for a sub. Millions. That should tell you something.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on August 24, 2013, 02:11:39 PM
But then you have people, like this dude in my pub guild, that bought 160 bucks in cartel coins Tuesday to try and get a mount.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 24, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
There was some game recently that wouldn't let me delete them, can't remember which one. That was over the line.

It was Neverwinter.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Miasma on August 24, 2013, 02:21:05 PM
I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.
What do you mean "since WoW"? Since the most successful MMO in history? Still the most successful MMO in history even after eight years?  No f2p game can even come close to dreaming of what WoW makes in subs. "Free to play" games still make huge amounts of money from people who voluntarily sign up for $15 a month. Any sane game publisher would make people pay $15 a month until the money runs out before going f2p.  There is nothing to lose, f2p people don't care about playing a game a year after launch.

Whatever Blizzard's next MMO is there will be a (possibly optional) sub and tens of millions of people will happily pay it.

Edit: Removed unwarranted profanity.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 02:58:11 PM
I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.

The only data that we have is devs continue to make crappy games and when they fail the go f2p. Look at swtor millions signed up for a sub. Millions. That should tell you something.

I didn't know millions of people wanted to play a Star Wars game. Who could have saw that coming?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 03:07:47 PM
I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.

The only data that we have is devs continue to make crappy games and when they fail the go f2p. Look at swtor millions signed up for a sub. Millions. That should tell you something.

I didn't know millions of people wanted to play a Star Wars game. Who could have saw that coming?

Yeah and they were willing to pay a sub for it. That's the fucking point. Just look at FFXIV. They are opening up with a sub again. I bet you a ton of people are going to be paying it. Samething with Wildstar and TESO. 1 or all 3 of those might go free to play because they might be dogshit games, but the lesson to learn is that people are still willing to pay subs.

So the business model is not dead. The sub model is just one of many options now.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 03:43:10 PM
They were willing to pay a sub for a month or two.  It still failed.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 03:47:54 PM
They were willing to pay a sub for a month or two.  It still failed.

Yeah so?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 24, 2013, 04:18:01 PM
It failed because it was a mediocre game with nothing to do once you finished the story.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
It doesn't matter why it failed, only that it did just like every single other game that has tried it since WoW.  A sub means it has a much higher barrier for entry and an impossible barrier for returning.  Millions of people are going to try Wildstar too, and their subs are going to crater because it simply doesn't work anymore.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 04:47:41 PM
It doesn't matter why it failed, only that it did just like every single other game that has tried it since WoW.  A sub means it has a much higher barrier for entry and an impossible barrier for returning.  Millions of people are going to try Wildstar too, and their subs are going to crater because it simply doesn't work anymore.

(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jump-to-conclusions-mat.jpg?w=500)

So many wrong things with your post.
1) A game that is shit, will lose subscribers.
2) The barrier for entry for any sub game is no more than any other video game that isn't free right out of the gate.
3) The fate of Wildstar's subs won't be based on if it's a sub or not. It'll be based on whether or not they made a fun game. They're not looking great due to the game being a standard quest treadmill tye of game that has been done over and over for 10 years.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 05:06:59 PM
Lolz I'm forgetting that mmo's don't exist in the real world. No mmo has ever failed because people would rather do the same thing for free or with a group of friends already playing WoW. But instead failed because those gosh darn developers didn't try enough, didn't spend enough money, wasn't original enough etc, etc. We can go over the all the things f2p gaming has over subs but it kinda wouldn't matter, because the genre doesn't "work that way". Failure means something entirely different.

People had fun playing age of conan
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun playing Warhammer Online
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun with rift...
And then they stopped playing.

Ironically around the same time...

I wonder why...

Those games was buggy and unfun.... everyone found several different games buggy and unfun... at the same time... over the course of several years. What a coincidence.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 05:07:44 PM
A game that is shit still does fine as F2P.  Everyone here thinks every game is shit.  Therefore every game would be better off as F2P.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 24, 2013, 05:16:38 PM
Most of this argument is backlash of people upset with wow's success and attributing the whole thing to being a fluke.  As though no other MMO can be fun, no MMO will ever get 1mil+ subs, it's impossibru!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 05:18:39 PM
A game that is shit still does fine as F2P.  Everyone here thinks every game is shit.  Therefore every game would be better off as F2P.

Define shit. Are we assuming games that can no longer support themselves with a sub fee as shit? If so would the only good game made since 2004 be WoW and EvE?  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 05:27:40 PM
A game that is shit still does fine as F2P.  Everyone here thinks every game is shit.  Therefore every game would be better off as F2P.

Define shit. Are we assuming games that can no longer support themselves with a sub fee as shit? If so would the only good game made since 2004 be WoW and EvE?  :oh_i_see:

I was being sarcastic, i think all of the games that people are complaining about are about as good as wow.  People are just not going to stay subbed to them, wow's endgame isn't any better than swtors and people keep naming that as the reason their sub model failed.  I don't think any of the MMOs, at least the big ones, since WoW are any less "fun" and yet people still bail after a month of two.  If someone can explain to me why the end games of Rift or SWTOR do not compare to WoW's I'm all ears, but i played both of those games extensively and the reason people bailed was "I don't like doing this anymore".  There is no viable endgame that will keep people around five/six months anymore, much less years like back in the EQ/WoW days.  Not only that but people simply will not tolerate long leveling curves, WoW at launch was good for a six month sub before you even sniffed the end game.  Now anything over a month is going to be dismissed and abandoned.  The last game to have a viable long term endgame was GW1 and maybe Shadowbane before that.  Everything else has been dungeons, heroic dungeons, raids, heroic raids, pvp battlegrounds.  And that is exactly what Wildstar is going to be and why people are going to bail en masse just like the other games and people are going to claim it was horrible.  It won't be horrible, it will probably be pretty damn good, people just don't want it anymore.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 24, 2013, 05:28:43 PM
Lolz I'm forgetting that mmo's don't exist in the real world. No mmo has ever failed because people would rather do the same thing for free or with a group of friends already playing WoW. But instead failed because those gosh darn developers didn't try enough, didn't spend enough money, wasn't original enough etc, etc. We can go over the all the things f2p gaming has over subs but it kinda wouldn't matter, because the genre doesn't "work that way". Failure means something entirely different.

People had fun playing age of conan
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun playing Warhammer Online
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun with rift...
And then they stopped playing.

Ironically around the same time...

I wonder why...

Those games was buggy and unfun.... everyone found several different games buggy and unfun... at the same time... over the course of several years. What a coincidence.

How many big MMO's have been released in the last decade, compare to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_video_gaming the games released in 2012, how many of those were duds, how many were hits?  You are taking 6 games and making a wild jump in saying they can't ALL be bad.  Yes, yes they can.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 05:36:55 PM
You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 05:37:55 PM
Lolz I'm forgetting that mmo's don't exist in the real world. No mmo has ever failed because people would rather do the same thing for free or with a group of friends already playing WoW. But instead failed because those gosh darn developers didn't try enough, didn't spend enough money, wasn't original enough etc, etc. We can go over the all the things f2p gaming has over subs but it kinda wouldn't matter, because the genre doesn't "work that way". Failure means something entirely different.

People had fun playing age of conan
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun playing Warhammer Online
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun with rift...
And then they stopped playing.

Ironically around the same time...

I wonder why...

Those games was buggy and unfun.... everyone found several different games buggy and unfun... at the same time... over the course of several years. What a coincidence.

You're a special guy. F2P works, subs work. B2P works. It's just that a majority of games, post-WOW did not work very well. When WOW had LFD, other games refused to put that into the game until later. When WOW had addons, some games refused to use them. When WOW had a robust "end game" other games released with nothing. There are just terrible design decisions all over the place.

Age of Conan? The game was entirely broken and unfinished. Dungeons were completely empty. Raids were broken. Classes weren't even remotely balanced. Once you hit 80, sieges were broken. You think it was just subscriptions that kept people from continuing to play? Dumbass.

Warhammer Online? A game that was horribly created, balanced, and it's end game was buggy as shit. People had fun up to level 20 and quit because the game sucked. And you wonder why people stopped playing?

People had a lot of fun in Rift, for a very long time. They could probably still be sub based honestly. But they had too many changeups at the higher end of management. Also, their design decisions in the past year or so were awful anyway.

I mean seriously, get a fucking clue. Some of these games worked really well free to play, you know why? Because they aren't worth subs. But play for free, have fun for three weeks, drop $5 makes you money. If you want to make a game designed to keep people interested a few days at a time random times in the year, then sure. You make a free to play game.

If you're going to make a sub based game, you need to make a good game worth the sub. People. a lot of people, wouldn't mind spending $15/mo on a game to support it. it's just gotta be good.

I don't know why I wasted my time replying.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
A game would need to invent a whole different endgame to be worth a sub.  "Good" or "bad" don't even come into the picture if we are talking raiding and dungeoning as endgame.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 05:46:55 PM
How many big MMO's have been released in the last decade, compare to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_video_gaming the games released in 2012, how many of those were duds, how many were hits?  You are taking 6 games and making a wild jump in saying they can't ALL be bad.  Yes, yes they can.

Logically.. no they can't. I mean we like to say they are because we stopped playing them, but we "stopped" playing games long before the "magical unicorn we call mmorpg's" were invented. Before mmo's you played a game for a month or two and buggered off to gamestop/local nerd store to buy/rent another game. Sometimes you played the same game for 6 months. Sometimes you play the same game for a year. Sometimes you luck out and you play a "classic" game that keeps you entertained for 2 or 3 years till the sequel came out. But those instances were the exception not the cardinal rule. Most of the time you was happy beating a game in a few weeks, maybe a couple months, before you moved onto the next. Than the mmo came about and demanded "all" of your free time and that became the norm. In mmo land you play a game for years; catassing under the same dungeons and talking with the same online friends. And that was ok because the pay model supported this trend. Now the trend is changing. Its not the games being bad, its the players.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 05:54:36 PM
You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.

Bullshit.  WoW isn't that good when compared to something like Rift.  The reason people played one for eight years and the other for two months has jack shit to do with their relative quality.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 24, 2013, 05:55:35 PM
Are there numbers on the percentages of people who actually pay for things and how much they pay?  I honestly suspect the reason why games with dwindling subs to so well when they go F2P is because by that time only the people who really love your game (and every game has some percentage of this die hard population), and it is precisely those people who will and now can spent 50, 100 dollars a month on your game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 24, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
Are there numbers on the percentages of people who actually pay for things and how much they pay?  I honestly suspect the reason why games with dwindling subs to so well when they go F2P is because by that time only the people who really love your game (and every game has some percentage of this die hard population), and it is precisely those people who will and now can spent 50, 100 dollars a month on your game.

No, games that go F2P always experience a massive influx of new players who think "meh, its free whats there to lose" or "meh, i guess i can come back now that its free to see if its any better".  Enough of those players have low enough impulse control to make them money.  The die hards probably continue to be subbed.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 24, 2013, 06:17:17 PM
Quote
Logically

I don't think that word means what you think it means.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 06:26:41 PM
You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.

Bullshit.  WoW isn't that good when compared to something like Rift.  The reason people played one for eight years and the other for two months has jack shit to do with their relative quality.

ooooook.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 06:36:23 PM
Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game every made?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 24, 2013, 06:47:15 PM
Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game Most profitable every made?

Yes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Miasma on August 24, 2013, 06:49:21 PM
"Best" is entirely subjective, there are people who honestly believe Duke Nukem Forever is the best game ever.  All we can go on is most successful and that is WoW by an order of God damn magnitude.

Edit: Lakov beat me as I fact checked order of magnitude.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on August 24, 2013, 06:56:16 PM
Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game Most profitable every made?

Yes.

We are making WoW the best compared to all other failed games, so technically according to some folks in this thread, WoW is the best mmorpg ever made. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 24, 2013, 07:20:23 PM
WotLK-era WoW is the best MMO I've ever played. They've since ruined it, and no MMO has been as good as WoW was at that time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 24, 2013, 07:25:14 PM
Everyone here thinks every game is shit.
You could have just left it at that, you know.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 24, 2013, 09:19:18 PM
Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game Most profitable every made?

Yes.

We are making WoW the best compared to all other failed games, so technically according to some folks in this thread, WoW is the best mmorpg ever made. 

You're not very smart are you?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Spiff on August 25, 2013, 01:48:38 AM
This: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/24/sure-sounds-like-blizzard-wants-to-take-wow-f2p/#more-166207 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/24/sure-sounds-like-blizzard-wants-to-take-wow-f2p/#more-166207) may be of interest to the discussion, otherwise resume the name-calling.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 25, 2013, 02:52:22 AM
That article is funny.  Wow adding Micro transactions like helmets and exp potions is not them going F2P, it's them trying to have their cake and eat it too.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 25, 2013, 08:26:54 AM
So back to Wildstar CC.  What impact does 4 or 5 different "break out" keys, one for each different CC-type have on PvP?  I realize they are multi-use, so you'll probably have those keys available anyway (e.g. double-tap movement key to roll).  I guess I want to believe that it will elevate those with more skill over simple gear checks.

I also wondering if PvE will be similar enough to PvP (from a CC/CC-breakout perspective) that folks exclusively PvEing till the level cap, then giving PvP a whirl cause they are bored will have something of a clue about what to do and won't simply get stomped.  I think this is one of the things that WAR got right - get folks PvPing as soon as possible, and try to make it as fun as possible early on so that PvP is another selling point at the end of the game (I'm saying that early WAR PvP was fun/done right, and nothing else).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on August 25, 2013, 09:06:07 AM
That article is funny.  Wow adding Micro transactions like helmets and exp potions is not them going F2P, it's them trying to have their cake and eat it too.

This. It's them saying, "well we can sell sparkle ponies for $25.. so those suckers will definitely buy a xp pot for their 15th alt AND pay $15 a month. HAHAHAH."

Though, in time, WOW will go free to play but that will be in 5 years when Blizzard puts something else out there, or some other company makes a better game where WOW's subs tank to the sub 1 million mark in the NA/EU.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 25, 2013, 09:07:11 AM
So back to Wildstar CC.  What impact does 4 or 5 different "break out" keys, one for each different CC-type have on PvP?  I realize they are multi-use, so you'll probably have those keys available anyway (e.g. double-tap movement key to roll).  I guess I want to believe that it will elevate those with more skill over simple gear checks.


If the measure of skill in a game is being able to mash 1 of 4-5 different keys when you get CCed then you don't exactly have a high skill ceiling.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on August 25, 2013, 09:38:02 AM
So back to Wildstar CC.  What impact does 4 or 5 different "break out" keys, one for each different CC-type have on PvP?  I realize they are multi-use, so you'll probably have those keys available anyway (e.g. double-tap movement key to roll).  I guess I want to believe that it will elevate those with more skill over simple gear checks.


If the measure of skill in a game is being able to mash 1 of 4-5 different keys when you get CCed then you don't exactly have a high skill ceiling.

Only the stun-break is a mash, from what they said.  Given the language in their marketing, and the "only the best" conversations, I'm still curious about how rich they will try to make their combat model.  Its not clear (to me) that they'll focus on least-common denominator and the ceiling will be pretty low (and by 'not clear' I mean, %5 chance they'll do something more clever).

More clever?  Suppose there are 5 different cc-break buttons, each with 5 different interaction types (so far there are only three interaction types, 'mash' and 'click' and double-click the correct movement button).  Let's say that there are 5-8 different attack types, many of them with different interaction types.  Add some interaction between the cc-break at the attacks and you've deepened the game quite a bit.  For someone with good muscle memory and a strong motivation to become good at these games, not an insurmountable problem.  For you average casual MMO player the skill ceiling is already pretty high.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 25, 2013, 10:38:33 AM
Quote
"CC in MMOS is not complicated or annoying enough"
-No one ever


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on August 25, 2013, 10:58:06 AM
WotLK-era WoW is the best MMO I've ever played. They've since ruined it, and no MMO has been as good as WoW was at that time.
This pretty much. Even the worst part of WotLK (Trial of the Crusader) was better than everything in Cata.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on August 25, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.

Bullshit.  WoW isn't that good when compared to something like Rift.  The reason people played one for eight years and the other for two months has jack shit to do with their relative quality.

Just thought I'd chime in and say this isn't the case, at least for a lot of people.  Rift's combat and setting is nowhere near as good as WoW's even though on the surface they are similar.  There's no, for lack of a better term, stickiness to either with Rift.  Both the combat and lore/environments are very bland.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on August 25, 2013, 04:47:35 PM
Yeah, overall I wouldn't call RIFT an improvement on WoW's model, just a newer game. One which is ultimately blander and less noteworthy.

WoW remains the best MMO in existence, it's just that it's 1. played to death and 2. by now we honestly should have had an improvement in the model that goes beyond what WoW brings to the table, but we haven't.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 25, 2013, 08:32:17 PM
No one wants to deviate from the wow model so most mmos have felt bland because they are more renovation than innovation.  People say wow was all about polish but I think people forget how ballsy something like "soloing to max level" was at the time and how it's taken for granted now.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 25, 2013, 08:50:59 PM
Yeah, overall I wouldn't call RIFT an improvement on WoW's model, just a newer game. One which is ultimately blander and less noteworthy.

WoW remains the best MMO in existence, it's just that it's 1. played to death and 2. by now we honestly should have had an improvement in the model that goes beyond what WoW brings to the table, but we haven't.

This is basically the main problem.  All of the "WoW-alikes" have made me just say "well, if I'm going to play this, I might as well resub to WoW where I have an old guild and a few characters so I won't have to start from a totally blank account."   And then I either actually do go back to WoW for a month or two, or just unsub from the thing I'm playing and be done with it.

Although recently, I haven't even made it out of beta in any of them.  One of the nice things about all these betas lately is I can usually get my fill of the "new shiny" from any given title and be done with it before I even have to spend money on it.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 26, 2013, 05:24:40 AM
WotLK-era WoW is the best MMO I've ever played. They've since ruined it, and no MMO has been as good as WoW was at that time.
This pretty much. Even the worst part of WotLK (Trial of the Crusader) was better than everything in Cata.
It was the second expansion for this MMO, set in an arctic continent far to the north. Inhabited by viking-themed giants and icy dwarves, it also had a strong draconic presence including a temple and graveyards. There was a friendly animal-man race living by the shore, making a living from fishing. A strange mystical ore threaded throughout the entire land-mass, created from the actions of a powerful mythological creature. A hidden valley had a verdant forest full of life, and was guarded by an avatar of the nature-goddess. A buried prison held a powerful, monstrous being with god-like power who threatened to destroy the entire world if it were ever released. The player-base claim that it is the greatest expansion ever released for the game and some people say it's been downhill ever since, especially compared to the directly following expansion.



tl'dr - you both sound like old EQ grognards reminiscing about Scars of Velious.  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rendakor on August 26, 2013, 06:30:28 AM
I realize that, I was just responding to this post:
We are making WoW the best compared to all other failed games, so technically according to some folks in this thread, WoW is the best mmorpg ever made. 
and pointing out that, yes, during it's peak, WoW was the best MMORPG ever. Nothing I've played since (including WoW) has topped it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Surlyboi on August 26, 2013, 06:43:28 AM

tl'dr - you both sound like old EQ grognards reminiscing about Scars of Velious.  :grin:

Boom.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on August 26, 2013, 09:07:04 AM

tl'dr - you both sound like old EQ grognards reminiscing about Scars of Velious.  :grin:

Boom.


Headshot!!!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 26, 2013, 09:28:55 AM
Has anyone under 30 even played EQ1?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on August 26, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
Well, they would have been teenagers while I was playing it in college.  Seems possible, especially if they came an expansion or two late.

It's a bit weird that my peak times for both games was the ice expansion.  I suppose I played each one so much that I just burnt myself out.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 26, 2013, 09:42:41 AM
I know several people in their mid-late 20s who played EQ.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on August 26, 2013, 09:51:20 AM
Well, Wrath of the Lich King had several things going for it.  Most people liked that expansion because it has accessible dungeons that anyone could do.  Even using the LFG system you could find a group to do almost any heroic and actually complete it in a reasonable amount of time.  With a guild group we could do almost any of them in under 20 minutes.  Loot was available via badges and you could actually get them reasonably.  It seems like that is why people remember Wrath of the Lich King as high point of WoW.

The lore stuff was irrelevant for the most part.  I'm sure some people liked that the Warcraft 3 storyline was finally resolved - but how many WoW players actually played Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne?  I'm sure quite a lot, but I also know a lot of people who never heard of Wacraft before WoW.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on August 26, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
A new fun class counted for a ton also.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Segoris on August 26, 2013, 03:25:36 PM
Has anyone under 30 even played EQ1?

People here can talk shit about it, but Project1999 really did have a solid EQ feeling and there were plenty of people in their teens and lower 20's. Also, a friend of mine and his GF's kids play EQ right now on the test/free server. So yes.


It was the second expansion for this MMO, set in an arctic continent far to the north. Inhabited by viking-themed giants and icy dwarves, it also had a strong draconic presence including a temple and graveyards. There was a friendly animal-man race living by the shore, making a living from fishing. A strange mystical ore threaded throughout the entire land-mass, created from the actions of a powerful mythological creature. A hidden valley had a verdant forest full of life, and was guarded by an avatar of the nature-goddess. A buried prison held a powerful, monstrous being with god-like power who threatened to destroy the entire world if it were ever released. The player-base claim that it is the greatest expansion ever released for the game and some people say it's been downhill ever since, especially compared to the directly following expansion.

tl'dr - you both sound like old EQ grognards reminiscing about Scars of Velious.  :grin:

If only WotLK had SoV factions and a Coldain ring quest :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on August 26, 2013, 03:55:12 PM
The lore stuff was irrelevant for the most part. 

Yuuuuuup. Although to be fair, WotLK was the last expansion where the lore wasn't 99% stupid, merely 80% or so.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: HaemishM on August 27, 2013, 11:52:24 AM
Coldain ring quest

Shut your filthy whore mouth.  :mob:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on August 27, 2013, 12:52:20 PM
If only WotLK had SoV factions and a Coldain ring quest :awesome_for_real:
I forgot the tank-n-spank gear check raid boss linked to the words "avatar of war" in the list, too.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on September 26, 2013, 03:23:53 AM
Interesting wednesday update: "Shiphand" missions!

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/wildstar_wednesday_all_hands_on_deck_for_shiphand_missions.php

Snippet:

Quote
Shiphands are ideal for doing something a little more involved than a normal quest with a few friends. They’re not as challenging as dungeons or adventures; they’re just a fun vacation from Nexus for about 15-45 minutes of your time.

And those experiences vary wildly. You could end up on an asteroid, exploring the mystery behind the mining operation’s sudden silence. Another ship might take you to a space station where the whole crew has started hallucinating due to a laboratory accident – and it looks like they’re fresh out of gas masks. You may even find yourself an unwilling contestant on the Darkspur Cartel’s infamous bloodsport reality show, The Gauntlet!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: zumu on September 26, 2013, 03:26:55 AM
Has anyone under 30 even played EQ1?

I'm 27 and played EQ from Dec. 1999 through Luclin.

EDIT: Removed inflammatory bullshit.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on September 26, 2013, 03:37:08 AM
Has anyone under 30 even played EQ1?

I'm 27 and played EQ from Dec. 1999 through Luclin.

Kunark era was better than Velious era, imho. Velious set the standard to release new content instead of fixing old broken content. Luclin was fun if completely jumping the shark.

I went on to play DAoC through up to trials. Could never get into WoW. Too much carebare dogshit to put up with before things get challenging/interesting.

WoW is just EQ with DAoC combat and War3 graphics.

But yea... now that we're done with the WoW vs Everything Else debate, can we talk about Wildstar?

We *were* done with the debate, until you decided to reply to a month-old post with a bunch of bullshit that seems deliberately chosen to wake the fight right back up.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: zumu on September 26, 2013, 03:46:36 AM
The post right before mine was posted literally as I hit preview. But fair enough, I'll edit out the inflammatory remarks.

Anyway, these "shiphand" missions seem like an interesting way to break up the normal routine of grinding. But it will be interesting to see how they implement them. I'm imagining glorified instanced daily missions.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on September 26, 2013, 07:47:18 AM
Quote
Leveling with friends? No problem! Shiphand missions are scalable from one to five players. Go it alone or bring in your posse; you can play it either way! And if you have a friend who hasn’t done it yet who wants a little company, you’re in luck – shiphands are repeatable. Some have random elements to spice up the experience of going back through, too.

Damn you Wildstar!  Why won't you let me just ignore you?!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on September 26, 2013, 08:35:18 AM
Their marketing is beginning to sound like a 2am infomercial.  "Want uber gems in your chestpiece?!  No problem!  Want ginormous tatas?! Got that covered!  Not one, not two, but THREE tatas can be rendered!"  Kinda tired of it actually; time to just produce and shutup.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on September 26, 2013, 09:32:48 AM
New Devspeak, Ability Mechanics!

Again an interesting one, and again another example of embracing a supposedly more dynamic experience when it comes to combat:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/media/videos/devspeak/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on September 26, 2013, 09:47:12 AM
That shiphand thing is a clever way to be able to create new quests that you can rotate in and out of the world with interesting mechanics. You can create a small instanced area with different art and environments, different gravity coefficients etc and give people a fun scenario to play through. It should be a way to give you a change of pace slogging through a zone doing a typical quest treadmill.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 26, 2013, 10:47:48 AM
What is a "shiphand" mission? A Skirmish?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on September 26, 2013, 04:13:24 PM
I hope it's a rip off of the LotRO skirmishes, those need to be ripped off.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on September 26, 2013, 05:00:55 PM
What is a "shiphand" mission? A Skirmish?

Themed periodic but not persistent side quests it sounds like, like the rotating seasonal themed quests GW2 has, though maybe not as calendar-based.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on October 02, 2013, 11:58:26 AM
October Game Systems update (leveling up, abilities loadout, quest system):

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/october_game_systems_update.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on October 02, 2013, 01:20:31 PM
Weighted questing objectives is actually a good idea. The rest of just the QoL stuff they are figuring out as players bitch.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on October 02, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
I find it interesting that they are making adjustments based on complaints instead of just burying their head in the sand or getting butt hurt.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on October 02, 2013, 04:38:24 PM
I find it interesting that they are making adjustments based on complaints instead of just burying their head in the sand or getting butt hurt.

It's been like that for as long as I've been following the game.  The addition of housing came about because of the outcry from the fans/forums.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on October 02, 2013, 04:55:09 PM
It's almost like they're actually reacting to the feedback rather than trying to just redo what they've always done knowing this time it will be different.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 03, 2013, 08:15:10 AM
I know I'll get crucified for this but I am seriously on the fence about this game. It has lots of stuff I like: Sci-fi? Check. Housing? Check.

But...it also has stuff that turns me off.

Cartoony WoW graphics? Check. Emphasis on end-game raids and such? Check (from what I've seen.)

The rest is in the sounds cool but might suck category for me, character paths, for example.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on October 03, 2013, 09:36:14 AM
It's on the wait and see category for the attachment to large scale raids. If they are actively engaging with the community we'll see how that stands up to time, but I'm not really interested in playing another game where after release 80% of the assets go into content for 10% of the players.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2013, 10:57:42 AM
I'm not on the fence. I'm quite sure the core of this game will be the same ole same ole. Something I'm personally tired of in the MMO scene.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on October 03, 2013, 10:59:10 AM
Yeah it looks like they are doing a great job but the game is clearly headed in a direction i will not enjoy. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on October 03, 2013, 04:30:26 PM
It looks like I'd have fun with it at first, and if they go all "most of our resources go to shit Sjofn doesn't do," no harm done, I'll just stop playing. I don't need to be married to a game for years and years and years for it to be worth fucking around with for a while.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2013, 07:13:22 PM
Absolutely.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on October 03, 2013, 07:14:12 PM
I wish i had that in me but if i know i won't enjoy the endgame i can't see myself wasting the time getting there.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Flood on October 04, 2013, 12:29:57 AM
I'm pretty excited about it, since I quit WoW 3ish years years ago I really haven't played any MMO's (well...MWO) so my scabs are all healed up and I'm ready for further punishment.  Still ready to be disappointed though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2013, 09:03:19 AM
This game will be Vanilla WOW++. So updated graphics, updated QOL things, different twist on questing and combat (GW2 style). So if vanilla WOW wasn't for you, or you're tired of that style of game, Wildstar isn't for you.

The only major difference is housing.

So far I'm not impressed with the classes. Warrior (yawn) Rogue (yawn) Mage (yawn) MageType2 (yawn). They to unannounced classes are the engineer and medic so I hope they get a little more sci-fi with them because the other four classes look boring and generic.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on October 09, 2013, 04:06:57 PM
Cross-realm interaction right from the start, but only for instanced content (and no cross-realm trade) :

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/wildstar_wednesday_crossing_the_streams.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on October 11, 2013, 06:18:04 PM
Hooray for the fucking LFD being in right from launch!  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fordel on October 11, 2013, 06:56:11 PM
How will they build COMMUNITY?!?!?!  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on October 11, 2013, 07:02:58 PM
Is it just dungeons or raids too?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on October 11, 2013, 08:09:11 PM
Is it just dungeons or raids too?

They weren't clear, and only offer "<redacted>" for speculation:

Quote
anytime you enter instanced content, whether through battlegrounds, dungeons, arenas, or <REDACTED>, your entire party will all be able to play together


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on October 15, 2013, 10:45:40 AM
I was at NYCC and I was talking to a friend of mine from Carbine who is the Sr CM and he told me about some interesting systems that will be announced for this game. I can't wait until they show them off.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on October 15, 2013, 10:55:14 AM
If they are doing raids with finders, that might change my attitude towards the game.

40 mans aren't really feasible now without some sort of grouping mechanic.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on October 15, 2013, 10:56:24 AM
If they are doing raids with finders, that might change my attitude towards the game.

40 mans aren't really feasible now without some sort of grouping mechanic.

From what I hear, Carbine is very serious about keeping 40 man raids a very difficult and challenging part of the game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on October 15, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
If they are doing raids with finders, that might change my attitude towards the game.

40 mans aren't really feasible now without some sort of grouping mechanic.

From what I hear, Carbine is very serious about keeping 40 man raids a very difficult and challenging part of the game.

All fine and dandy, so long as their don't wall off story/lore content with them a la Vanilla WoW.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 15, 2013, 02:57:04 PM
If they are doing raids with finders, that might change my attitude towards the game.

40 mans aren't really feasible now without some sort of grouping mechanic.

From what I hear, Carbine is very serious about keeping 40 man raids a very difficult and challenging part of the game.

All fine and dandy, so long as their don't wall off story/lore content with them a la Vanilla WoW.

I agree and disagree with this. 

Vanila wow did gate content behind raids but calling Ragnaros storyline is a bit of a stretch.  There was no real story to any of the original wow raids beyond "here's the bad guys lair, kill him"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on October 15, 2013, 03:01:28 PM
If they are doing raids with finders, that might change my attitude towards the game.

40 mans aren't really feasible now without some sort of grouping mechanic.

From what I hear, Carbine is very serious about keeping 40 man raids a very difficult and challenging part of the game.

All fine and dandy, so long as their don't wall off story/lore content with them a la Vanilla WoW.

From what they've said publicly, all the story driven stuff is in solo-mode dungeons or whatever they call them.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on October 17, 2013, 05:29:38 AM
In-fiction presentation of what sounds like the tutorial area for the Dominion faction, the "Destiny" Arkship:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/wildstar_wednesday_-_dominion_arkship_destiny.php


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on October 17, 2013, 08:19:49 AM
I'm sensing there's a catch...  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on October 18, 2013, 08:50:04 AM
I was at NYCC last weekend and was talking with my buddy David Bass (Scooter) and he told me about some new systems they are trying out in the game. Obviously I can't say what those are, but I have to say it got me excited about the game. These guys are constantly iterating the game. Apparently they have some really good tools. We should be getting some really good updates soon as the game gets into the 6 months to launch window.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Father mike on October 18, 2013, 09:31:00 AM
Wait, we're still beyond 6 months on this thing?  I thought it was launching in 'early 2014' e.g. mid-March or roughly five months.

I'm pretty positive Guild Wars 2 won't hold my interest that long ...


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on October 18, 2013, 09:45:57 AM
Summer 2014 was my expectation.

My ideal launch window would actually be 3 months after Wow launches an expansion at this point. Prime pickings.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on October 18, 2013, 11:52:01 PM
Wait, we're still beyond 6 months on this thing?  I thought it was launching in 'early 2014' e.g. mid-March or roughly five months.

I'm pretty positive Guild Wars 2 won't hold my interest that long ...

It's slated for spring 2014. That's like 6 months from now.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Simond on October 19, 2013, 05:46:23 AM
If they are doing raids with finders, that might change my attitude towards the game.

40 mans aren't really feasible now without some sort of grouping mechanic.

From what I hear, Carbine is very serious about keeping 40 man raids a very difficult and challenging part of the game.

All fine and dandy, so long as their don't wall off story/lore content with them a la Vanilla WoW.

I agree and disagree with this. 

Vanila wow did gate content behind raids but calling Ragnaros storyline is a bit of a stretch.  There was no real story to any of the original wow raids beyond "here's the bad guys lair, kill him"
Yeah, Onyxia had absolutely nothing to do with any of the pre-endgame lore. 

 :facepalm:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on October 19, 2013, 06:41:39 AM

Yeah, Onyxia had absolutely nothing to do with any of the pre-endgame lore. 

 :facepalm:

The Onyxia attunement line is etched into my brain for all time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 19, 2013, 11:44:32 AM
Hah! I messed up that quote.

Yes the Onyxia questline was lore but the raid was a single dragon fight. The actual instance didn't add anything to lore and yes everything leading up to did but the actual dungeons in wow vanilla amounted to "lore character in a box, go kill them"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on October 19, 2013, 06:53:17 PM
Wait, we're still beyond 6 months on this thing?  I thought it was launching in 'early 2014' e.g. mid-March or roughly five months.

I'm pretty positive Guild Wars 2 won't hold my interest that long ...

It's slated for spring 2014. That's like 6 months from now.
Yea, but which country's Spring?  8-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on November 08, 2013, 10:27:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fotT6iVi-cg



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Surlyboi on November 08, 2013, 11:09:10 PM
Yeah, still really have zero interest in playing this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on November 09, 2013, 12:54:24 AM
Yeah, still really have zero interest in playing this.

Unless they have some real geniuses designing the war plots system I can't think of a good reason to give any fucks about this game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Miasma on November 09, 2013, 01:06:43 AM
It's a wow clone and wow's new expansion sounds really mediocre so sure.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on November 09, 2013, 08:22:18 PM
I want their clever* humor to mean something about the fun of the game, if for no other reason than to see a marketing campaign actually align with a quality experience, instead of whitewashing it.

* in the context of the usually laboriously-overthought/overbudget too-full-of-themselves marketing campaigns desperately trying to pull attention away from derivative or predictably bad experiences, or the slapdash amateur hour these kinds of games usually get


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on November 09, 2013, 10:54:20 PM
Once it gets out of beta I'll look at it's pvp options and determine whether its worth the download. I think I'm kind of broken when I look at a game that spends 90% of its time creating an expansive pve experience and dismiss the game off hand for the 10% I'm actually going to play.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: calapine on November 09, 2013, 11:17:40 PM
It's a wow clone and wow's new expansion sounds really mediocre so sure.

So this is something WoWy, Neverwinter online is decidly meh and F13 forum consesus is pretty unimpressed with ESO as well. (Hope I got that right?)

So if I want to develop a serious poop-sock MMORPG addiction like the one caused by Vanilla WoW in 2004 there is not much hope in 2014?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on November 10, 2013, 08:05:22 AM
If you're pining for WOW 1.0, Wildstar is the game for you. According to dev interviews and if you read in between the lines Wildstar will be WOW++ 1.0 in terms of how things are set up.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: calapine on November 10, 2013, 08:31:25 AM
If you're pining for WOW 1.0, Wildstar is the game for you. According to dev interviews and if you read in between the lines Wildstar will be WOW++ 1.0 in terms of how things are set up.

Well, no, burned out on that model. I am a typical stupid customer: I don't know what I want before I see it. Well, I sort of do... UO 2.0, but that's not going to happen. So really anything that brings back the old magic of "I can't wait to get home to log on!" "No more staying in bed, I need to get up an play!!".


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Miasma on November 10, 2013, 08:45:04 AM
If you're pining for WOW 1.0, Wildstar is the game for you. According to dev interviews and if you read in between the lines Wildstar will be WOW++ 1.0 in terms of how things are set up.

Well, no, burned out on that model. I am a typical stupid customer: I don't know what I want before I see it. Well, I sort of do... UO 2.0, but that's not going to happen. So really anything that brings back the old magic of "I can't wait to get home to log on!" "No more staying in bed, I need to get up an play!!".
That's pretty hard to get now, it's mostly an age and either wisdom/cynicism type effect.  After you've played MMOs for too long you start to see all the treadmills and rehashed patterns and it ruins the experience.  You can have brief flashes of "I can't wait" when a new MMO is released and you start burning through content alongside other excited people but it won't be long before you remember it's all the same thing and stop playing once the content is consumed.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on November 10, 2013, 09:20:30 AM
Pretty much. Once you can see the matrix, the fun wears off. That's why I probably won't have fun in an MMO for more than a few weeks again until they upgrade the tech so it's not all:

Level 1 > Zone 1 > Quest A..Z > Level 10 > Zone 2 > Dungeon 1 > Quest A..Z > .. > Max_Level > Zone 10 > Quest A..Z > Heroic Dungeon  > Raid

It'll be when the whole world is dynamic and reactionary and none of it is static. GW2 and EQN talked a big game, I'll believe it when I play it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on November 10, 2013, 09:36:08 AM
I always wonder how many people trained on MMOs really want a dynamic ever changing world though? Like, I think I personally do, but let's face it, the concept is anathema to the model.

How often do we want to figure something new out just to get to that next level/skill/weapon upgrade? How often do we want to piece together clues in order to solve a riddle? Aren't we programmed to find the most efficient path through a sequence of achievements we optimize so well we eventually become thrilled at the prospect of a 10% chance that 25% of the drops from a mob we have a 50% change of defeating will be useful to us? And for those not into that don't we prefer to get our "chance encounter" from other players we then bitch about cheating or playing overpowered FoTM templates on forums?

Over a decade of iterating on EQ concepts has lead to this point, and away from where things could have gone. Every non-EQ-y thing from a true player economy to housing and vibrant crafting has had some excuse associated with its lack of mass acceptance. "Too complicated", "too inconsistent", "too many resources on the wrong things", "too derivative", "I don't like just being a spaceship".

But it all comes down to market forces. What are consumers going to buy. What we've been buying is EQ clones straight on down the line. We* keep buying them, so why should they stop making them?

* The proverbial [large enough to make a market size] "we", not we here, though some of us still do  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on November 11, 2013, 07:24:43 AM
So this is something WoWy, Neverwinter online is decidly meh and F13 forum consesus is pretty unimpressed with ESO as well. (Hope I got that right?)

So if I want to develop a serious poop-sock MMORPG addiction like the one caused by Vanilla WoW in 2004 there is not much hope in 2014?

EverQuest Next.
But yeah, I know how you feel and I think it is safe to say that at least for the next five years nothing will grab us like that again. Maybe someday, in a distant future, something that pushes some boundaries through insane amounts of unpredictable content, and some new technology. I still believe the next life-ending massively multiplayer game will be a sandbox, the biggest ever. One that will literally try to invade our real lives.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on November 11, 2013, 07:42:30 AM
I always wonder how many people trained on MMOs really want a dynamic ever changing world though? Like, I think I personally do, but let's face it, the concept is anathema to the model.

How often do we want to figure something new out just to get to that next level/skill/weapon upgrade? How often do we want to piece together clues in order to solve a riddle? Aren't we programmed to find the most efficient path through a sequence of achievements we optimize so well we eventually become thrilled at the prospect of a 10% chance that 25% of the drops from a mob we have a 50% change of defeating will be useful to us? And for those not into that don't we prefer to get our "chance encounter" from other players we then bitch about cheating or playing overpowered FoTM templates on forums?

Over a decade of iterating on EQ concepts has lead to this point, and away from where things could have gone. Every non-EQ-y thing from a true player economy to housing and vibrant crafting has had some excuse associated with its lack of mass acceptance. "Too complicated", "too inconsistent", "too many resources on the wrong things", "too derivative", "I don't like just being a spaceship".

But it all comes down to market forces. What are consumers going to buy. What we've been buying is EQ clones straight on down the line. We* keep buying them, so why should they stop making them?

* The proverbial [large enough to make a market size] "we", not we here, though some of us still do  :grin:

If it's a fun game, then no one will care about the different formula. It's as simple as that.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on November 11, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
Better combat options with a more dynamic world would appeal to a large set of MMO players that have played WoW and clones already over and over.

The problem so often with MMOs now is they claim to be new and different, but they change 1-2 things from the WoW formula while the rest is the same. You have to take the risk to change it all, which is something nobody was willing to do for the last 5 years with the economic outlook. Now? We're getting to the point where risk is starting to be a viable action for large returns.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on November 11, 2013, 01:12:12 PM
For those interested in the beta, a survey email went out about 10 days ago for the winter beta they're doing.  They posted on FB today that the email they used to send out the surveys was not the ordinary email they use, and many spam filters may have blocked it. 

The survey doesn't guarantee a spot, but they'll prioritize those that do fill out the form.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on November 11, 2013, 01:36:15 PM
I'll try this, but the combat design makes me leery and probably ultimately means I won't be pulled away from SWTOR.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on November 11, 2013, 02:26:51 PM
For those interested in the beta, a survey email went out about 10 days ago for the winter beta they're doing.  They posted on FB today that the email they used to send out the surveys was not the ordinary email they use, and many spam filters may have blocked it. 

The survey doesn't guarantee a spot, but they'll prioritize those that do fill out the form.

Definitely blocked on my gmail account. Thanks for the heads up.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 11, 2013, 06:01:21 PM
I, "I don't like just being a spaceship".


You also forgot the part that "being a spaceship" comes with as fun watching paint dry combat. eve could been so much more if it had an iota of actual game in there


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on November 15, 2013, 07:18:40 AM
I'm so happy that the obligate chibi short thing race is sinister, evil, and on the evil side.

Maybe their traditional diet is gnomes, tarutaru and lalafell.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on November 24, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
Any sort of pseudo-release date scheduled?  I can't seem to find much.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on November 24, 2013, 04:04:36 PM
EQ Landmark goes into closed (paid) beta in March 2014. That is ALL we know. Release (of Landmak, not Next) is to be expected 3 to 6 months after that. Anything else is pure speculation, even if it comes from SOE's sources. So basically the answer is: no pseudo-release date at all.

Wrong thread.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Rasix on November 24, 2013, 04:08:05 PM
wat

Wrong thread, guy.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on November 25, 2013, 06:37:15 AM
Any sort of pseudo-release date scheduled?  I can't seem to find much.

Spring/Summer 2014 is the current window.  Have to see how their December beta-fest goes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on November 25, 2013, 10:05:17 AM
Spring/Summer 2014 is the current window.  Have to see how their December beta-fest goes.

Thanks.  I had assumed Spring 2014, but wondered if that may a bit ambitious.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on November 25, 2013, 10:24:49 AM
I would love Spring, but something about this project makes me think they'll take a more conservative approach if they run into too much trouble and do a Summer release to ensure a good first impression.  A lot of these Carbine guys are ex Warhammer/WoW/other MMO guys, just like Trion.  They seem to get the whole "you only get one good shot to make or break your game, so fucking get it right the first time" thing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on November 25, 2013, 10:53:25 AM
I can't wait for the NDA to drop. :argh:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Bzalthek on November 25, 2013, 01:16:17 PM
I only see NDA as a negative these days.  It does nothing.  They say it's to protect their leet new innovations but A) no one has leet new innovations and B) even if they did, the competition out there is too incompetent to capitalize on it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Malakili on November 25, 2013, 01:19:26 PM
I only see NDA as a negative these days.  It does nothing.  They say it's to protect their leet new innovations but A) no one has leet new innovations and B) even if they did, the competition out there is too incompetent to capitalize on it.

Well, you forgot the obvious other reason:  It allows them to build hype based on promises and bullet points instead of their actual game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on November 25, 2013, 01:22:01 PM
It has a place during the sausage-making part of game development; random folks getting a look at when everything is half-done and broken will generally mostly generate negative buzz. See: the sky-is-falling contingent around the Hex alpha.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on November 25, 2013, 02:23:39 PM
If you watch the weekly streams, it really shows off the game as much as you could really want outside playing it yourself.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on November 25, 2013, 04:28:41 PM
It has a place during the sausage-making part of game development; random folks getting a look at when everything is half-done and broken will generally mostly generate negative buzz. See: the sky-is-falling contingent around the Hex alpha.

Yes, but it doesn't have a place when you're less than six months from release. Nothing will change fundamentally in that time.

If an NDA on the beta is still in place at that point or especially in the quarter prior to the game coming out? It's a disaster.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on November 25, 2013, 04:50:26 PM
I've long been opposed to any type of public beta for a game outside of server optimizing stress tests. But unfortunately they've been tradition so long, not having one raises too much negative PR.

These things cost as much as movies, and a beta can only tell you that you were either colossally wrong about something fundemantal enough you can't fix, or it can help you tune a marketing message on the backs of your most interested fans burning out on the game before they need to pay for it.

And all along the way the online conversation about your game spinning out of control because "NDA" carries about as much weight to private information as "public beta" does to the design phase of a game. Nothing you learn in a late beta is going to let you actually get back to the drawing board on the fundamentals, no matter how agile you think your process is.

Does that really sound like the kind of thing you want to chance a $40-100mm investment on?

So all in all, unless you are goddamned sure you've made all the right decisions that result in robot jesus ariving in a perfect kismet of culturally relevant zeitgeist and development genius, keep the players away until they're willing to pay something.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on November 25, 2013, 06:25:45 PM
Does that really sound like the kind of thing you want to chance a $40-100mm investment on?

It's not really a chance, though. At the point the game comes to the public beta stage, you're committed and the costs are sunk. Gamers today are still collectively stupid with purchasing decisions, but they are also collectively savvier on this particular genre due to the series of games that didn't fully deliver in the last 5-6 years.

People are less likely to just jump into a game if you keep it in the dark. I think you run more of a risk keeping it quiet than you would showing the process of how you are fixing concerns. You play to the media, and make it better.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: kildorn on November 25, 2013, 08:24:26 PM
It has a place during the sausage-making part of game development; random folks getting a look at when everything is half-done and broken will generally mostly generate negative buzz. See: the sky-is-falling contingent around the Hex alpha.

Yes, but it doesn't have a place when you're less than six months from release. Nothing will change fundamentally in that time.

If an NDA on the beta is still in place at that point or especially in the quarter prior to the game coming out? It's a disaster.

Well, nothing SHOULD change drastically 6 months out. I've been in quite a few betas that have completely ripped entire systems out and replaced them with completely different shit in shorter timeframes.

That said, the NDA really should drop soon even if the release is thinking summer of next year. Even from a pure marketing perspective, the longer you keep the NDA up as your beta program presumably grows, the more internet buzz around your game turns into silence as more and more people can't share opinions anymore.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on November 25, 2013, 10:01:07 PM
You could rip out the crafting system, or the skills system, or something like that.

I don't think they can overhaul combat in 6 months. Maybe I'm wrong.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on November 26, 2013, 05:29:41 PM
There's a specific threshold at which an overly prolonged NDA is just making everything worse anyway, and also obviously is fulfilling the same premise as is used by studios who opt out of releasing their movie for critic pre-release screenings.

Basically the most visible people who are leaking out of the seams of your increasingly depressurizing NDA shield are the ones going YEA FOKKIT IT SUCKS


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on November 26, 2013, 10:21:55 PM
Basically the most visible people who are leaking out of the seams of your increasingly depressurizing NDA shield are the ones going YEA FOKKIT IT SUCKS

I could say _____ MMO sucks without ever participating in the beta and I would be right over 90% of the time. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Spiff on November 27, 2013, 02:19:16 AM
It's more entertaining if you have specifics, a self-righteous attitude and scream a lot though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on November 27, 2013, 10:15:55 AM
Quote
I could say _____ MMO sucks without ever participating in the beta and I would be right over 90% of the time.

And the contingent of game supporters and indefatigable fanboys that every shitty MMO that won't work has are disproportionately inclined to not break nda

SO eventually you're just making shit worse for your shitty game with an NDA. They can buy you some time. Not a lot.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2013, 10:33:45 AM
And the contingent of game supporters and indefatigable fanboys that every shitty MMO that won't work has are disproportionately inclined to not break nda

SO eventually you're just making shit worse for your shitty game with an NDA. They can buy you some time. Not a lot.

You're right.  A good game core will market itself.  An NDA just opens the door for speculation and ill will.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on November 27, 2013, 10:44:18 AM
I don't think the NDA hurts that much when you have good marketing like this game has.  But something like TESO that doesn't have weekly devspeaks highlighting all the positive aspects of your game is left only with the negative feedback all the people who don't give a shit about breaking the NDA give.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on November 27, 2013, 11:06:37 AM
Does that really sound like the kind of thing you want to chance a $40-100mm investment on?

It's not really a chance, though. At the point the game comes to the public beta stage, you're committed and the costs are sunk. Gamers today are still collectively stupid with purchasing decisions, but they are also collectively savvier on this particular genre due to the series of games that didn't fully deliver in the last 5-6 years.

People are less likely to just jump into a game if you keep it in the dark. I think you run more of a risk keeping it quiet than you would showing the process of how you are fixing concerns. You play to the media, and make it better.
Oh I know. I'm just lamenting that it became this way. Most other genres don't get this level of shit before launch, and only occasionally this level of investment.

I agree with Threash that the NDA may be offset by the clever marketing Wildstar has received. NDAs are kinda dumb without self-imposed policing. But that's as much tradition as the idea of transparent feedback between devs and players, which hasn't been the case since the first generation of MMO dev fled the scene.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on November 27, 2013, 11:50:49 AM
If devs don't even respond to posts on the beta forums, and i mean actually respond, not create a new topic to blast the group, then i think a beta is a waste of time. If you want to market the game, do it. If you want to fix the game, read and react.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2013, 12:38:27 PM
If devs don't even respond to posts on the beta forums, and i mean actually respond, not create a new topic to blast the group, then i think a beta is a waste of time. If you want to market the game, do it. If you want to fix the game, read and react.

I think that read and react is becoming increasingly difficult due to white noise.  Especially when the white noise is oblivious to the fact that they are, indeed, white noise.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on December 03, 2013, 05:56:55 PM
Might want to check your emails.   :nda:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on December 03, 2013, 06:46:40 PM
Might want to check your emails.   :nda:

 :mob:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 03, 2013, 08:59:24 PM
Might want to check your emails.   :nda:

 :mob:

+1  :mob:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 03, 2013, 09:00:40 PM
I don't think I signed up for this, but still.  :mob:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 03, 2013, 09:31:49 PM
I filled out that stupid beta survey and everything!   :mob:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on December 04, 2013, 05:51:05 PM
Late to the riot, but

 :mob:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Father mike on December 04, 2013, 06:58:35 PM
Add another to the :mob: squad.




Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 05, 2013, 10:04:41 AM
(http://i32.tinypic.com/e9yj9s.jpg)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Signe on December 05, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
GET HIM!!!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 05, 2013, 03:38:25 PM
  :yahoo: :yahoo: :raspberry: :raspberry: :woot: :eat:





*realizes that he will be away from his main comp all the weekend, with only a meager Asus netbook to keep him company*





Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 05, 2013, 04:06:34 PM
 :yahoo: :yahoo: :raspberry: :raspberry: :woot: :eat:





*realizes that he will be away from his main comp all the weekend, with only a meager Asus netbook to keep him company*





Get into the holiday spirit and donate to the needy.

(http://i.imgur.com/gOXRPUh.gif)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 05, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
Looks like they are going Italy first :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 05, 2013, 07:54:08 PM
If you're pining for WOW 1.0, Wildstar is the game for you. According to dev interviews and if you read in between the lines Wildstar will be WOW++ 1.0 in terms of how things are set up.

Well, no, burned out on that model. I am a typical stupid customer: I don't know what I want before I see it. Well, I sort of do... UO 2.0, but that's not going to happen. So really anything that brings back the old magic of "I can't wait to get home to log on!" "No more staying in bed, I need to get up an play!!".

You have to remember that once Burning Crusade hit, things changed drastically for those folk invested in WoW vanilla (like me).  Burnout occurred largely because of that; none of us wanted to re-enter the level treadmill, and none of us wanted our current gear and rep-grinds rendered moot... not to mention, none of us really wanted to re-organize into small(er) raids.

The key for Wildstar will be maintaining vanilla WoW with just enough sandboxey SWG-ish community play.  Any content should be iterated onto the end w/o sacrificing previous content...  unlike what Blizz did.

#dons flame-retardant suit


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 06, 2013, 11:28:06 AM
So your answer to beating WoW is content progression with no catchup mechanisms? Hope I don't have to go into the obvious problems with that on F13.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 06, 2013, 11:44:09 AM
I think the fact that EQ expansions did not make all the endgame content of previous expansions obsolete was one of the best things about it, and doing that was a huge mistake for wow.  Content is the most valuable resource in this industry, you can't throw it away.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on December 06, 2013, 11:48:32 AM
Is there really people here that still love this sort of MMO that actually want to be in the beta? If so, I find it hard to believe.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 06, 2013, 12:12:57 PM
This stress test beta weekend is nothing more than a few hours long. Still, there's apparently some up for sale on eBay around the 40 euros mark.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 12:19:16 PM
I think the fact that EQ expansions did not make all the endgame content of previous expansions obsolete was one of the best things about it, and doing that was a huge mistake for wow.  Content is the most valuable resource in this industry, you can't throw it away.

New content is the most valuable resource. Old content is garbage. I'll point you directly to Cataclysm, which revamped the entire world leveling experience, and didn't increase numbers or even hold ground after 3 months.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 12:43:02 PM
I think the fact that EQ expansions did not make all the endgame content of previous expansions obsolete was one of the best things about it, and doing that was a huge mistake for wow.  Content is the most valuable resource in this industry, you can't throw it away.

New content is the most valuable resource. Old content is garbage. I'll point you directly to Cataclysm, which revamped the entire world leveling experience, and didn't increase numbers or even hold ground after 3 months.

That's a poor analogy because when old content is irrelevant or it's rewards are irrelevant it becomes garbage. Make those rewards more relevant for more than a day or a few hours then you might have something.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 06, 2013, 01:11:23 PM
I think the fact that EQ expansions did not make all the endgame content of previous expansions obsolete was one of the best things about it, and doing that was a huge mistake for wow.  Content is the most valuable resource in this industry, you can't throw it away.

New content is the most valuable resource. Old content is garbage. I'll point you directly to Cataclysm, which revamped the entire world leveling experience, and didn't increase numbers or even hold ground after 3 months.

Content is only old to the people who have done it.  My EQ guild was usually 1-2 expansions behind on end game content and we had no problem with that, in fact we still had plenty of competition for it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 01:17:39 PM
You honestly believe people enjoy running their buddies through the old crap just to get them ready to do the new crap because one guy quit?

While I don't necessarily believe you should immediately skip everything mid-xpac, especially with LFR available now in Wow, the idea you'd have to still be running MC 8 years later is asinine.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 01:36:25 PM
You honestly believe people enjoy running their buddies through the old crap just to get them ready to do the new crap because one guy quit?

While I don't necessarily believe you should immediately skip everything mid-xpac, especially with LFR available now in Wow, the idea you'd have to still be running MC 8 years later is asinine.

Who said 8 years later? I think if you spend enough time on the problem you could find some interesting solution to keep previous expansion heroics/raids gear relevant. But it wouldn't work the way WOW is set up where heroics are just uber grinds that you repeat through every 20 minutes over and over again. Because by the 100th time you've done some troll dungeon you never, ever want to do it again.

It'll take a different game system to do that that isn't WOW or Wildstar.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 01:43:37 PM
What system would allow that where it wasn't a punch in the nuts?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 06, 2013, 01:44:43 PM
Where is it writ that you have to run MC 8 yrs. later?   :headscratch:    Also, I knew quite a few large guilds that ran it "for fun" quite regularly even though they were farming Naxx.  Guildie puts the raid on the schedule, if 20+ (I believe they were able to 20-man some of those old raids eventually) sign up, ding... you have a raid.  Farm the mats, teach the newbs, whatever.

Also, quite often we ran for guildmates.  Wtf other reason is there to raid?  For yourself?  Makes no sense.  If everyone in a guild simply ran raids for themselves, you'd effectively never be able to actually raid.  There has to be a certain amount of worldbuilding to make it work.  It's the same deal in sandbox games like SWG or Eve.  You can't have every last person be a "special snowflake" who do nothing but Need phat lootz.  It's give and take.

Shit, the mage's (council) in my guild eliminated DKP because it was gimping our DPS as we were moving through content.  We needed capable bodies, so the gear went to where it made the most difference... not to where there were the most points.  Since it was something we tracked, it became something we could all be proud of even though we might not be wearing the piece... because our effective group DPS grew by orders of magnitude.



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: KallDrexx on December 06, 2013, 01:47:20 PM
GW2 accomplishes that just fine.  You were rewarded for going back into old level zones and completing hearts and world completion, the dungeons started at 35 (I believe) but you still did them even after you got to 80, etc...


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 06, 2013, 01:51:08 PM
edit:
Is there 'invite a friend' with the beta invites? (if so, GIMME ONE)  I cant believe I'm not in this stress test and I've been following this thing since it was a pencil-drawing.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 06, 2013, 02:01:29 PM
You honestly believe people enjoy running their buddies through the old crap just to get them ready to do the new crap because one guy quit?

While I don't necessarily believe you should immediately skip everything mid-xpac, especially with LFR available now in Wow, the idea you'd have to still be running MC 8 years later is asinine.

I'm telling you i personally felt the EQ system of not making old content obsolete was way better than the WoW system after having played both extensively.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 02:23:10 PM
It also led to a system where only a small percentage of players were using the content, while others quit because of the cockblocks.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 02:31:42 PM
I understand you're playing WOW again so you have your WOW blinders on but there are other ways to making video games.

I'm not to create a design doc here, but if you create a system that slows down the rate of character power growth then you can easily keep old raid/dungeon content relevant. What if your expansion didn't add additional levels, but just added more content! Levels are stupid anyway.

You can slowly update older content with new drops, additional bosses, new sections of the dungeons while either nerfing or modifying old encounters so they aren't as boring.

Old equipment can become useful to new classes, new specs, new builds or whatever. You can use old gear in a different kind of crafting system maybe?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 02:37:03 PM
I also don't think regressing back to the dark ages of MMOs is somehow going to spawn a new, enlightened customer base. WoW worked because the proved the way EQ did it was not grabbing enough people. It was billed and packaged that way.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 06, 2013, 03:41:50 PM
Exactly. This idea that years-old endgame dungeons can be relevant years into the life of an MMO is as old school as the idea of leveling pace tapering off the closer one gets to the endgame. No way players will stand for that.

But aside from theorycrafting long dormant game systems redux, there's a deeper issue:

MMORPGs are tapering off. The players leaving WoW aren't going to other MMOs. There's a whole lot of lack of accurate numbers we could argue about, but my measure is simpler than that: the number of high profile MMOs not being made.

The mid-2000s are over, and they're not coming back. There's a confluence of factors, from the rise of mobile to the decline of PC gaming, the number of high profile underperforming high investment highly publicized MMOs, and the lack of any susbstantially successful console MMO in an age when even consoles as a business are in question.

Having said all that, we could very well regress to the dark ages of MMOs if for no other reason than the only players left are the ones who actually want that kind of game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 06, 2013, 03:50:56 PM
About rergression, FF14 is an insane step back and somehow it seems like it's doing good. Which is interesting.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 04:25:29 PM
About rergression, FF14 is an insane step back and somehow it seems like it's doing good. Which is interesting.

Recent financials suggest that FF14 has about 600-700k in subs. It's certainly profitable, but it's a step back in terms of the total market too. Especially given that it's one of the most successful gaming franchises of all time.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Wizgar on December 06, 2013, 04:32:21 PM
But aside from theorycrafting long dormant game systems redux, there's a deeper issue:

MMORPGs are tapering off. The players leaving WoW aren't going to other MMOs. There's a whole lot of lack of accurate numbers we could argue about, but my measure is simpler than that: the number of high profile MMOs not being made.

The mid-2000s are over, and they're not coming back. There's a confluence of factors, from the rise of mobile to the decline of PC gaming, the number of high profile underperforming high investment highly publicized MMOs, and the lack of any susbstantially successful console MMO in an age when even consoles as a business are in question.

I agree completely, but I'm still looking forward to watching someone get really defensive as they try to redefine "success" for an MMO to mean "firing everyone and limping on in disgrace as an F2P shitpile" or whatever. Maybe they can tell you how many box sales SWTOR had while they're at it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on December 06, 2013, 04:49:01 PM
the idea you'd have to still be running MC 8 years later is asinine.

I'm with the monkey for once.

It's funny to me that in the threads for the 2 upcoming MMOs, we have one conversation where people complain that MMOs never try new things and one where people wish that MMOs would stick to even older worse things.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 06, 2013, 05:40:39 PM
I agree completely, but I'm still looking forward to watching someone get really defensive as they try to redefine "success" for an MMO to mean "firing everyone and limping on in disgrace as an F2P shitpile" or whatever. Maybe they can tell you how many box sales SWTOR had while they're at it.

Heh, that's the gray area of "scaling to the expectations met versus those imagined".

Or the difference betwen "live" and "alive" :-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
I also don't think regressing back to the dark ages of MMOs is somehow going to spawn a new, enlightened customer base. WoW worked because the proved the way EQ did it was not grabbing enough people. It was billed and packaged that way.

Let me know when you take your WOW fanboy glasses off then maybe we can actually have a discussion. Because it's obvious you think WOW is the pinnacle of MMO design and nothing can improve the cycle of LEVEL > DUNGEON > RAID > LEVEL > DUNGEON > RAID cycle of each expansion.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 05:51:28 PM
Exactly. This idea that years-old endgame dungeons can be relevant years into the life of an MMO is as old school as the idea of leveling pace tapering off the closer one gets to the endgame. No way players will stand for that.

But aside from theorycrafting long dormant game systems redux, there's a deeper issue:

MMORPGs are tapering off. The players leaving WoW aren't going to other MMOs. There's a whole lot of lack of accurate numbers we could argue about, but my measure is simpler than that: the number of high profile MMOs not being made.

The mid-2000s are over, and they're not coming back. There's a confluence of factors, from the rise of mobile to the decline of PC gaming, the number of high profile underperforming high investment highly publicized MMOs, and the lack of any susbstantially successful console MMO in an age when even consoles as a business are in question.

Having said all that, we could very well regress to the dark ages of MMOs if for no other reason than the only players left are the ones who actually want that kind of game.

I think that more and more people realize that MMORPGs like WOW aren't really very good games in the scope of every game ever made. WOW was the best MMORPG but it's far from the best game ever. The thing that draws people back to MMOs over and over is living in a world/universe. Until developers get off static worlds and scripted dungeons we're going to have crap.

That's why people turned into GW2 fanboys because they lied about their event system. It turned out to be meh.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Typhon on December 06, 2013, 06:22:21 PM
Ok, so what's the best game ever?  Is how long someone played that game, and enjoyed it, a metric in determining, "best game ever"?  I'm not championing WoW as best game ever, but I think you're just throwing phrases around.  Can the phrase, "best game ever" stand up to a serious minute of scrutiny?  So if you don't mean, "best game ever", what do you mean?

The reason I'm asking is because, as far as MMORPGs go, and by any metric that matters, WoW is the clear winner.  Mabye you are actually saying something like, "I didn't care for it and it pisses me off that it's so popular", or, "I don't like MMORGPs (anymore)".

Again, I'm not championing WoW.  I quit it early and often.  I'm not a fan of the game, especially the end game.  I do acknowledge that it's clearly the best MMORPG that has been made.  So I'm wondering what exactly you are trying to say.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 06, 2013, 06:53:41 PM
I think you're both right.

I'm not going to get into an esoteric "what is a good game" debate, but it's personal, it changes all the time, and it changes over time.

WoW is a great MMO. And it's a good game, when compared to select other games. But is the combat as fun as other games all about combat? Is the story? The quests? The travel?

I think it, like all MMOs, are a hodgepodge of good-enough features with the unique qualities of a shared persistent space to make up the gaps against singular/focused genre-specific games like CoD, BF, Assassins Creed, Madden, etc. But whereas those games are annualized, allowing for iteration in tech and game play, MMOs aren't really allowed to be (especially after the few that have tried). So whatever they are at launch, they're largely that forever, just becoming more of it.

So if MMOs are just good-enough game systems with online stuff to differentiate, and if WoW is the best of the good enough, then it's not surprising people who leave WoW aren't staying in MMOs.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 06, 2013, 07:40:07 PM
I also don't think regressing back to the dark ages of MMOs is somehow going to spawn a new, enlightened customer base. WoW worked because the proved the way EQ did it was not grabbing enough people. It was billed and packaged that way.

Let me know when you take your WOW fanboy glasses off then maybe we can actually have a discussion. Because it's obvious you think WOW is the pinnacle of MMO design and nothing can improve the cycle of LEVEL > DUNGEON > RAID > LEVEL > DUNGEON > RAID cycle of each expansion.

Most every RPG since 1974, both tabletop and digital, follows that same exact progression, and for a reason.  It's the Hero's Journey, Kurosawa, and all that shit.  There is rarely a better model, nor improvements on the cycle.... only reskins and slight variations.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 08:18:30 PM
Ok, so what's the best game ever?  Is how long someone played that game, and enjoyed it, a metric in determining, "best game ever"?  I'm not championing WoW as best game ever, but I think you're just throwing phrases around.  Can the phrase, "best game ever" stand up to a serious minute of scrutiny?  So if you don't mean, "best game ever", what do you mean?

The reason I'm asking is because, as far as MMORPGs go, and by any metric that matters, WoW is the clear winner.  Mabye you are actually saying something like, "I didn't care for it and it pisses me off that it's so popular", or, "I don't like MMORGPs (anymore)".

Again, I'm not championing WoW.  I quit it early and often.  I'm not a fan of the game, especially the end game.  I do acknowledge that it's clearly the best MMORPG that has been made.  So I'm wondering what exactly you are trying to say.


Let me clarify because I was just finishing feeding a hungry infant.

WOW created one of the best social gaming experiences to date. The underlining game mechanics were terrible. Look at it from a mechanics point of view. Can anyone defend hotbar combat with tab targets, playing the UI and waiting for cooldowns actually compelling gameplay that is satisfying? Or was all that hidden under a rewarding social/communal experience?



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 08:22:23 PM
I also don't think regressing back to the dark ages of MMOs is somehow going to spawn a new, enlightened customer base. WoW worked because the proved the way EQ did it was not grabbing enough people. It was billed and packaged that way.

Let me know when you take your WOW fanboy glasses off then maybe we can actually have a discussion. Because it's obvious you think WOW is the pinnacle of MMO design and nothing can improve the cycle of LEVEL > DUNGEON > RAID > LEVEL > DUNGEON > RAID cycle of each expansion.

Most every RPG since 1974, both tabletop and digital, follows that same exact progression, and for a reason.  It's the Hero's Journey, Kurosawa, and all that shit.  There is rarely a better model, nor improvements on the cycle.... only reskins and slight variations.

What a boring response. I agree that the cornerstone of RPGs are character development and a personal story. However the underlining mechanic of leveling and creating leveling content in a game that attempts to keep you over a long period of time and asking for money is a terrible waste of time and an awful mechanic.

The process of leveling and all that hero journey shit is fantastic for single player or small scale co-op games. Not for MMOs.

I'm getting way off topic now.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on December 06, 2013, 08:34:29 PM
Exactly. This idea that years-old endgame dungeons can be relevant years into the life of an MMO is as old school as the idea of leveling pace tapering off the closer one gets to the endgame. No way players will stand for that.

But aside from theorycrafting long dormant game systems redux, there's a deeper issue:

MMORPGs are tapering off. The players leaving WoW aren't going to other MMOs. There's a whole lot of lack of accurate numbers we could argue about, but my measure is simpler than that: the number of high profile MMOs not being made.

The mid-2000s are over, and they're not coming back. There's a confluence of factors, from the rise of mobile to the decline of PC gaming, the number of high profile underperforming high investment highly publicized MMOs, and the lack of any susbstantially successful console MMO in an age when even consoles as a business are in question.

Having said all that, we could very well regress to the dark ages of MMOs if for no other reason than the only players left are the ones who actually want that kind of game.

I think that more and more people realize that MMORPGs like WOW aren't really very good games in the scope of every game ever made. WOW was the best MMORPG but it's far from the best game ever. The thing that draws people back to MMOs over and over is living in a world/universe. Until developers get off static worlds and scripted dungeons we're going to have crap.

That's why people turned into GW2 fanboys because they lied about their event system. It turned out to be meh.

So... the prerequisite for a discussion is changing our minds about what we like? Very reasonable.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 06, 2013, 10:21:50 PM
Well not you in particular, you're too obsessed with the game.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 06, 2013, 10:46:52 PM
WoW is by no means the pinncale of design. It's the pinnacle of what sold. And it's the pinnacle of what sold because the people had no desire to put up with the kind of content design you're talking about in EQ.

The pinnacle of design in my mind is Mount and Blade style combat in a persistent world with a functioning economy and guild upgrades to buildings. I'd also add in a commander slot for tactical orders, and the ability to settle/build/develop new lands.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 07, 2013, 09:00:39 AM
Even before f2p business models required all game designers to think "but how will this drive IAP too?", thus screwing over the idea of balance for the sake of balance, MMO developers have had to worry about design vs development vs size of potential market vs return on investment.

Blizzard's success came specifically from optimizing conventions people were familiar with plus their other advantages (brand equity, playerbase, budget, etc). But all those resources come at a cost of their own.

Money people make decisions based on precedent. To get budget, you need to predict ROI. To get that you need a baseline. That baseline is going to come from near examples. This is why a game can be deemed a failure when it doesn't hit it's million players. Not only was it budgeted based on that assumption, but the marketing and PR behind the game positioned it that way. It's not an empirical failure if it's still live and new content is being added. But it can be a perceived failure when the team is downsized, servers merged, subs are dropped in favor of f2p, and all the new content is bug fixes.

WoW was not based on taking a popular game mechanic of the day like FPS or RPG and turning it into an MMO. It was based on taking what was known about MMOs and making them better.

There have been actually experimental MMOs. But aside from Eve, which itself took a long time to become big (and generated a nice shot in the arm due to the mistakes of an entirely separate MMO), the other ones like PS and TR and whatnot all revealed that people who want an actual different MMO represent a small percentage of the overall playerbase. And because they're small, they're not going to get the WoW-level of budget.

And all this is made worse by those games with WoW-levels of budget being deemed failures* (see above).

Which brings it all back to Ingmar's question:

So... the prerequisite for a discussion is changing our minds about what we like? Very reasonable.  :oh_i_see:
Yes. Because until we stop proving our preference for mediocre game mechanics in high production value chat rooms and instead actually flock in droves and spend all our money in something like Mount & Blade, we're going to continue to get high production value chat rooms.

tl;dr: you're already voting with your dollars :-)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 07, 2013, 10:58:42 PM
If they wanted to sucker me in on a Kickstarter, the Mount and Blade people would announce an MMO. It's like the only thing I can think of where I might lose all reason and donate, even given my objections to the method.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: satael on December 07, 2013, 11:22:18 PM
If they wanted to sucker me in on a Kickstarter, the Mount and Blade people would announce an MMO. It's like the only thing I can think of where I might lose all reason and donate, even given my objections to the method.

I would avoid that and suggest that everyone else did too since they have Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord to finish first!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: calapine on December 09, 2013, 01:50:50 AM
If they wanted to sucker me in on a Kickstarter, the Mount and Blade people would announce an MMO. It's like the only thing I can think of where I might lose all reason and donate, even given my objections to the method.

I would avoid that and suggest that everyone else did too since they have Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord to finish first!  :awesome_for_real:

I loooove Mount & Blade to bits. Which makes me worry that Bannerlord will be the Duke Nukem Forever of mount- and blading. Please don't fail.  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 09, 2013, 04:02:30 AM
Ok, I finally finished downloading the client, ready to go!!!  :drill: :drill:



Oh wait, right, the stress test weekend is already over  :oh_i_see:

By the way, what's up with MMORPG companies still using the ridiculous NDA excuse to cover a possible shitty product, and making two-days stress tests? Really, still using these policies with leaks, word of mouth and the Net in general? Bah.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on December 09, 2013, 04:04:54 AM
To be fair... these are actual stress tests and not just weekend previews. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 09, 2013, 04:10:53 AM
To be fair... these are actual stress tests and not just weekend previews. 

Sure, sure, but my complaints remain the same: companies still believes these two-days stress tests represent valid data?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 09, 2013, 04:55:21 AM
Problem isn't that the stress test was too short. Problem is that the stress test was literally just that: a stress test, an attempt at breaking the servers that was utterly succesful. It worked so well (the stress) that no one could do anything more than play with the login screen, fail to connect, get kicked out every 3 minutes, rinse, repeat, for two days so don't be envious if you haven't be picked. I hope at least it helped them.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 09, 2013, 10:32:08 AM
Sounds like ESO's stress test.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on December 09, 2013, 11:05:57 AM
As far as I can tell they regularly schedule stress tests, like, in between beta phases and once or twice during beta phases.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on December 09, 2013, 11:23:20 AM
I been involved in a few MMOs at release and they all have followed the same pattern... first week or two the servers get slammed and create all sorts of warped fun - from login fiascos to rubberbanding players and warping mobs. All of these generally are alleviated in a few weeks later when the first locust players push through level cap and finally get some sleep and a regular play schedule. I am not sure what a specific stress tests really do anymore. I think there are enough data points in the MMO genre to give a pretty good indication of what is needed when. Then again, I am of the ilk that thinks closed betas are antiquated and need to be put out to pasture. They are nothing more than a viral marketing tool that has lost its sparkle years ago.

IMHO, GW2 did it best with the overflow servers they had. Not sure other MMOs can do that considering GW2's special snowflake status... but it worked really well.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 10, 2013, 03:27:09 PM
Check the emails, people.  Winter Beta invites going out, and apparently not only did I get one, but they gave me two keys to give away.  PM if you want one, first two into me by timestamp gets them.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Pennilenko on December 10, 2013, 03:33:34 PM
Careful passing out those keys, they ban you too if a friend key violates user policy or nda.

I only offered keys to forum people I felt fairly sure were safe.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on December 10, 2013, 05:34:37 PM
They don't want me playing.  Still no invite and they have yet to give a friend code to my roommate. :|


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 10, 2013, 05:35:34 PM
Careful passing out those keys, they ban you too if a friend key violates user policy or nda.

I only offered keys to forum people I felt fairly sure were safe.

Noted, and I agree.  

And mea culpa to those that PM'd and didn't get an immediate response.  Posted my post at work right before I left for the day.

That said, here's my PM results (all times in EST, my local time):

Zetor: 16:30:00
Paelos: 16:40:39
Threash: 17:42:49

I'm PMing Zetor and Paelos now.  If the two of you already got keys within the last hour via other people or email, let me know so's I can send it to Threash.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 10, 2013, 05:35:41 PM
Invited! No doubt thanks to my amazing feedback during the last stress test :why_so_serious:



Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 10, 2013, 06:11:45 PM
ohhhh, of all the things to miss.

its super cool you guys get to beta :)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2013, 06:23:08 PM
BAH.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on December 10, 2013, 06:48:28 PM
BAH.

 :tantrum:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 10, 2013, 07:30:12 PM
Damn. I didn't hear about Wildstar until 6 months ago or so, so I'm unlikely to make it to closed beta.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 10, 2013, 07:42:03 PM
Have you guys who've gotten in been signed up since 2011?  'Cause I have, and have yet to get an invite.  That's just not right.  Cant Draegan shwag us some keys or sumthin?  What good is he?   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 10, 2013, 07:55:59 PM
Have you guys who've gotten in been signed up since 2011?  'Cause I have, and have yet to get an invite.  That's just not right.  Cant Draegan shwag us some keys or sumthin?  What good is he?   :oh_i_see:

I've been signed up since then, yes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 10, 2013, 11:01:41 PM
I'm not saying I would perform sexual favors for a beta key, I respect NDA's.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 11, 2013, 01:56:55 AM
Meanwhile, jusry is out if this will be universally known as World of Wildcraft or World of Clonecraft.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 11, 2013, 03:23:04 AM
(I will edit this message accordingly)

Sent a PM about my two spare beta keys to:

Ghambit (at 10:15:55 CET). Status: answered; beta key sent (at 16:57:23 CET)
Sjofn (at 10:18:08 CET). Status: answered; beta key sent (at 11:46:03 CET).


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2013, 04:26:03 AM
!

I need the PM thing to be bigger, obviously. Maybe a sound to go off.

"HEY STUPID YOU GOT A PM"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Teleku on December 11, 2013, 04:37:36 AM
I'm mildy interested in this, so I'd like to get on the beta key list.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on December 11, 2013, 06:51:19 AM
Hey Paelos, let me know if this game looks like a shitshow.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: 01101010 on December 11, 2013, 09:20:01 AM
Hey Paelos, let me know if this game looks like a shitshow.

Same. I am not fiending for an invite/key for this game for some reason. I think all the past betas have done their damage in taking the shine off MMOs as well as the factor of trying to chase that high you got from the first one. Then again, maybe it is just age catching up to me... very very quickly.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 11, 2013, 10:29:05 AM
Will do. I think it runs through this weekend, so I'll play and see what happens before I form any opinions.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 11, 2013, 10:45:51 AM
There's a lot of devspeak twitch video to watch for this game already; if you want a good feel for what it's gonna be like. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 11, 2013, 02:52:20 PM
They have a bunch of much longer streams on youtube (originally on twitch) also, running like 45 minutes long each. It's all pretty standard wowclone stuff, but Wildstar has neat little mechanical innovations and looks pretty polished.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 11, 2013, 03:58:06 PM
The robot faces on the engineer devspeak sold me on the class.  And the game i guess.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 11, 2013, 04:29:24 PM
urghhhhhhh

I'm all but totally done playing anything else, so I'm watching and hoping for a beta invite on this one.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nebu on December 11, 2013, 04:54:05 PM
urghhhhhhh

I'm all but totally done playing anything else, so I'm watching and hoping for a beta invite on this one.

I'm with you.  Dabbling with WoT and LoL, but not much else grabbing my interest.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 11, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
This is the hardest game for me to honor the NDA that I've ever tested.   :sad:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on December 12, 2013, 01:03:25 AM
I'm not particular interested in this game until someone who actually played it says something about it  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 12, 2013, 03:35:06 AM
This is the hardest game for me to honor the NDA that I've ever tested.   :sad:

Please resist ;)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tyrnan on December 12, 2013, 12:40:29 PM
Anyone know if they're sending out invites to EU folks or if it's just US-based for now?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on December 12, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Pretty sure Lucas is a dirty foreigner so you should be allowed to be invited as well.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lucas on December 12, 2013, 01:13:12 PM
What Ingmar said  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 12, 2013, 01:42:19 PM
a magic dancing frog from f13 has delivered upon me the opportunity to be unable to say anything about this game!

this is one of the better reasons to be happy about my day, ever.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Tyrnan on December 12, 2013, 02:29:27 PM
Pretty sure Lucas is a dirty foreigner so you should be allowed to be invited as well.
Oh well, back to checking the junk filter. The only thing it contained was an invite back to Allods, talk about salt in the wound  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 12, 2013, 03:26:35 PM
I'm not particular interested in this game until someone who actually played it says something about it  :awesome_for_real:

The fact that no ones said anything should tell you something.  I think.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 12, 2013, 04:15:36 PM
It says that even those who are severely underwhelmed are respecting the NDA.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Modern Angel on December 13, 2013, 09:33:19 AM
Because nobody cares?

I'll only say this: I literally forgot that I was in the beta. I logged off one day and forgot. Glanced at my desktop shortcut three months later, thought, "Oh yeah, that thing", and did something else.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on December 13, 2013, 09:50:18 AM
I think it more means they don't feel it's a clownshoes operation (see TESO) and so they don't feel the need to mock / defend it at every turn.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Modern Angel on December 13, 2013, 09:58:32 AM
Oh, word. Yeah, it's definitely not clownshoes.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ghambit on December 13, 2013, 12:22:31 PM
I think it more means they don't feel it's a clownshoes operation (see TESO) and so they don't feel the need to mock / defend it at every turn.

I may or may not have been leading to this hypothesis with my prior statement. 


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 13, 2013, 01:03:40 PM
Hey Paelos, let me know if this game looks like a shitshow.

No. If anything I'd say it's "Polished Meh"


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 13, 2013, 01:45:27 PM
Hey Paelos, let me know if this game looks like a shitshow.

No. If anything I'd say it's "Polished Meh"

Like most betas I've done, I always have that fear of going "too far", because I know all my progress is gonna get wiped in the end, but I still want to play.  I think that feeling it shared here.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Modern Angel on December 13, 2013, 02:17:57 PM
Yeah, I thought it was that feeling, too, since I approach almost all betas that way now.

It wasn't.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 13, 2013, 04:09:03 PM
Hey Paelos, let me know if this game looks like a shitshow.

No. If anything I'd say it's "Polished Meh"

That feels liek LoTRO beta to me. It was competent enough to not make people angry, but not nearly fun enough for people to gush. In essence, just not a game to cause any kind of excitement once you played it.

Still don't have any beta invite for Wildstar. Not really missing it though. And I'm not employing reverse psychology in the hopes of getting one  :grin:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on December 13, 2013, 05:04:49 PM
My skirting the NDA contribution is that I'm not entirely sure they really need that NDA, exactly. I dunno, maybe it's just me.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on December 13, 2013, 09:46:17 PM
My skirting the NDA contribution is that I'm not entirely sure they really need that NDA, exactly. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

Is that a positive or a negative statement?  This is pretty much the only new MMO I'm looking forward to playing.  Sadly, no beta invite yet to be able to tell for myself.  I'm reading the lack of vitriol coming from beta testers for this as a positive sign compared to what I've read about ESO.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Sjofn on December 13, 2013, 09:53:10 PM
It's ... it's a statement. Sorry if that's super-tease-y, but it's mostly meant as a neutral statement.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ginaz on December 13, 2013, 09:56:57 PM
It's ... it's a statement. Sorry if that's super-tease-y, but it's mostly meant as a neutral statement.  :why_so_serious:

I know.  I was hoping for some more info but its difficult because of  :nda:.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lantyssa on December 13, 2013, 11:41:33 PM
Overall I think it's a good sign.  I'm always wary of a game with excessive hype, and if everyone is openly mocking an NDA'd game then it's worrying.

RIFT is kind of what I think of in this regard:  I  had a positive opinion of the game because I respected the work being done even though I knew the game wasn't going to be something I played.  These days that's almost the  most important thing to me after all the poor excuses we've seen released.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on December 13, 2013, 11:48:11 PM
We live in the internet age? Why go into anything cold when there's a million ways to get spoon fed, forked fed, chopstick fed information. Especially if we're dealing with jaded PC gamers who are quick to uninstall things that hit the "nope" moment early. The more discussion the more likely we are to play.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 14, 2013, 10:29:47 AM
Seriously, this site doesn't do NDA breaking but anyone who wants info on any game can find it in a million places if they want it bad enough.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 14, 2013, 03:52:05 PM
For example, I don't understand: is this guy breaking the NDA? (http://www.twitch.tv/towelliee) Cause Twitch is sponsoring this stream, so I guess it's OK... or is it?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on December 14, 2013, 04:40:11 PM
Some people got the ok to stream and release info on Wildstar.  I think it's only level 1-15 though.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on December 14, 2013, 05:05:56 PM
Seriously, this site doesn't do NDA breaking but anyone who wants info on any game can find it in a million places if they want it bad enough.

Only arguing that the NDA is really dumb considering where the internet is with expectations.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 14, 2013, 05:44:43 PM
Seriously, this site doesn't do NDA breaking but anyone who wants info on any game can find it in a million places if they want it bad enough.

Only arguing that the NDA is really dumb considering where the internet is with expectations.
I think the NDAs are dumb because of the internet itself. I'm sure marketing people think having one prevents rampant conversation from ruining expectations of potential buyers. But that really only works for annualized sequels and other such games that people buy for enjoyment but which don't include the emotional  attachments that MMOs do.

tl;dr: NDAs don't do anything for MMOs


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: koro on December 15, 2013, 10:52:59 AM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 15, 2013, 11:35:16 AM
I think the game is polished enough to not need the NDA either. The fact they have one in my mind is mostly because the game is similar to other things you've played so they don't want comparisons. That's my guess. I wasn't planning on playing it and my opinion hasn't changed.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 15, 2013, 12:19:34 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

That's flipping retarded.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Wizgar on December 15, 2013, 12:29:17 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

Holy shit, the races in this game are awful looking.

But yeah, someone writes one of these stupid articles about how game designers should waste their time rendering dumpy female models no one would pick every time one of these games comes out.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 15, 2013, 12:52:29 PM
I think the game is polished enough to not need the NDA either. The fact they have one in my mind is mostly because the game is similar to other things you've played so they don't want comparisons. That's my guess. I wasn't planning on playing it and my opinion hasn't changed.

It has the polish, sure.  They're still trying to shine that polish in though.

Out of boredom, I binged on catching up on the last six weeks of class content drops they've been doing on the website.  The Engineer looks fun, and the Medic might actually pull off the DPS/healing hybrid thing that Bliz tried to do with the Monk (and ended up caving in, turning the heal-spec into yet another variation of a heal-bot).

http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/the-game/classes/


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 15, 2013, 01:14:52 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

That's flipping retarded.

No it isn't. (http://www.annamegill.com/blog/2013/12/10/a-brief-guide-to-video-game-character-sexualization)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 15, 2013, 01:27:12 PM
I think they meant that it's retarded because there's well known reasons why it still occurs in the core video game industry.

And let's not assume this is just about video games. (http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/amazing-pantene-ad-defiantly-tackles-how-women-workplace-are-labeled-154385)

The problem will perpetuate until the demographics of the development, publishing, and retail communities shifts a tad closer to gender balance, thus potentially expanding the market beyond the same core 18-34 male they've been selling to.

Until then we'll just have the same self-fulfilling prophecy that justifies these creative decisions based on the data being collected.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on December 15, 2013, 02:01:31 PM
Is it that video games are marketed towards men because women don't play video games, which is the excuse always given for the hypersexualization of women in games, or could it be that less women play video games because they are marketed towards men (http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed)?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 15, 2013, 02:01:50 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

That's flipping retarded.

No it isn't. (http://www.annamegill.com/blog/2013/12/10/a-brief-guide-to-video-game-character-sexualization)

Yes it is.  The number of people who want to play ugly females is extremely small, wasting time making characters for them that could be used on something else is dumb.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 15, 2013, 02:03:37 PM
Is it that video games are marketed towards men because women don't play video games, which is the excuse always given for the hypersexualization of women in games, or could it be that less women play video games because they are marketed towards men (http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed)?

Most women don't want to play female dwarves or tauren either.  Given the choice between the current hot versions of those weird ass wildstar races and ugly counterparts most women would chose the hot ones.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on December 15, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
Your mistake is thinking that the only choices available for developers are 'hot' or 'ugly'.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: luckton on December 15, 2013, 02:13:03 PM
There's an easy fix here.  They just need to make female Chua.  No way in hell they could pull it off, unless they just broke the 4th wall, invoked the 34th rule, and, well, actually pull it off.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 15, 2013, 02:36:30 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

That's flipping retarded.

No it isn't. (http://www.annamegill.com/blog/2013/12/10/a-brief-guide-to-video-game-character-sexualization)

Yes it is.  The number of people who want to play ugly females is extremely small, wasting time making characters for them that could be used on something else is dumb.

What Nevermore said. Clearly, you are not a valid interlocutor on this topic as you are biased and narrowminded. Between ignorant and idiot, your pick.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 15, 2013, 04:05:55 PM
Wildstar clearly and blatantly engages in dimorphic and oversexualized female form objectification in its race models, beyond a stylized comic degree. We've all seen on their public press. And it's a problem for gaming in general, if one cares to look into it.

That said, that article is nuts. It's obsessively making the exact wrong argument — a sputtering, overly technical indignation that the sexual dimorphism of Wildstar's cartoon fantasy races is not grounded in realism and is not scientifically sound, and goes off about the potential combination of boobs on pseudo-reptilian bipeds with viviparity or on the Rock Bro race.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on December 15, 2013, 04:13:25 PM
Are you saying boobs on reptiles, robots and especially on rock people isn't incredibly stupid?


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Hoax on December 15, 2013, 04:28:06 PM
I'm saying you guys are incredibly stupid. This is a boring pathetic thing to complain about. Why aren't you wasting resources making models, textures and animations that satisfy how I think things should be!!! Waaaaaa.

Cry me a fucking river.

I know you think you have a moral imperative to cry that you aren't seeing what you want. But this conversation has no more value than people who cry about anime andro males or overly tiny cutesy races or there being no fat race or there being a fat race or no left handedness or not enough black people or WHATEVER. If you don't like it? Don't fucking play. But its not that you can't handle it, its that you enjoy feeling righteously outraged. Bravo. The internet totally needs more of this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Threash on December 15, 2013, 04:33:39 PM
Are you saying boobs on reptiles, robots and especially on rock people isn't incredibly stupid?

Biologically wise, sure.  Not stupid in the sense that it is clearly what the market, both male and female wants.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Venkman on December 15, 2013, 04:38:05 PM

What Nevermore said. Clearly, you are not a valid interlocutor on this topic as you are biased and narrowminded. Between ignorant and idiot, your pick.

Is this the thread where we'll have a serious discussion about this? And are we qualified to, or are we reflective of the demographic of the industry itself?

Is it that video games are marketed towards men because women don't play video games, which is the excuse always given for the hypersexualization of women in games, or could it be that less women play video games because they are marketed towards men (http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed)?
That's why I call it a self-fulfilling prophesy. By and large it's guys deciding what core video games to create, guys designing and developing them, guys at publishers and guys at retail (note I specifically am talking about core video games).

Did this evolve this way because it was mostly guys playing competitive arcade games on the Jersey shore and then guys buying the early generation Atari 2600, Intellivisions and Colecovisions such that it was guys growing up on competitive games and then wanting to work in the industry? Does this perpetuate because that much testosterone in any room is going to result in alienating people who don't fit into that culture's idealized vision of itself as depicted in the 80s action heroes they all create and market? Shit, this culture even fucks up strong female leads like that schmuck peddling his stupid PR message about the recent Tomb Raider.

This isn't about over sexualized girl avatars with skimpy armor. That's just a tiny symptom of an entire industry. I will say in the last year or two it seems like people are finally starting to openly talk about it. But there still seems to be too much money flowing through to change how things are thought.

But I'm also optimistic about some of the other publishing and platform games that have been coming too. They don't seem to have the same retrograde roots.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 15, 2013, 04:54:40 PM
Are you saying boobs on reptiles, robots and especially on rock people isn't incredibly stupid?

Not any more so than that the rock people have testicles, or noses, or vocal cords that work in the same range as humans, or the same general bipedal shape and stature despite a completely different density at similar gravitational levels. The argument that he goes on about is stupid because it wasn't the designers' intent to make scientifically realistic or plausible races; they're purposefully stylized cartoon sci-fi fantasy aliens, to which the argument of the plausibility of rock lactation or pseudoreptilian viviparity and mammalian secondary sex characteristics is pretty much irrelevant. Even the males and the females of the humans on both sides are completely stylistically dimorphic, so.

The issue isn't realism and it serves as a distraction to the point, which is that the stylization that wildstar went for involves cartoonishly hypersexualized female models, and this has a bunch of problematic things going on with it and these days games should not be offering that as a mandatory or default form. It's coming on 2014 and Wildstar felt compelled to go in full-bore on the exaggeration of sex characteristics.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Nevermore on December 15, 2013, 05:04:42 PM
Wait, how do you know that the rock people have testicles?  :why_so_serious:

I could argue that boobs on a rock person is more stupid than noses or vocal cords but there's really no point in going further down that rabbit hole.  The point remains that the character designs in this game are terrible.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on December 15, 2013, 05:32:11 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

That's flipping retarded.

No it isn't. (http://www.annamegill.com/blog/2013/12/10/a-brief-guide-to-video-game-character-sexualization)

Yes it is.  The number of people who want to play ugly females is extremely small, wasting time making characters for them that could be used on something else is dumb.

What Nevermore said. Clearly, you are not a valid interlocutor on this topic as you are biased and narrowminded. Between ignorant and idiot, your pick.

No its stupid. We spent nearly dozen post on the size of robot boobs. Next were going to arguing how two rocks should scientifically have sex. Oh wait...


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 15, 2013, 06:04:26 PM
Wait, how do you know that the rock people have testicles?  :why_so_serious:

haha, watch the 'meet the exiles' video - she straightly alludes that granok's balls are bigger than their brains


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Draegan on December 15, 2013, 06:08:48 PM
You should all feel bad for having this argument. Hoax is right.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Evildrider on December 15, 2013, 06:35:37 PM
You should all feel bad for having this argument. Hoax is right.

(http://i.imgur.com/L9RDO7y.gif)


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Wizgar on December 15, 2013, 06:48:27 PM
I've never seen any evidence that anyone other than concern trolls really give a shit about this.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Samprimary on December 15, 2013, 06:56:04 PM
I dunno where that leaves me if I'm in the ambiguous position of both thinking that article's nuts AND thinking that we shouldn't have figures quite as hypersexed as wildstar has stylized them as. I promise I'm not a concern troll though!


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Fabricated on December 15, 2013, 07:36:12 PM
http://robothyena.tumblr.com/post/69851398783/wildstar-character-design-female-objectification

Enjoy~  :awesome_for_real:

That's flipping retarded.

No it isn't. (http://www.annamegill.com/blog/2013/12/10/a-brief-guide-to-video-game-character-sexualization)
That's a really dumb comic and the author doesn't understand what a false equivalency really is.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Falconeer on December 15, 2013, 07:39:07 PM
What is important is to keep exposing and calling out sexist bullshit, in all industries, in all instances of society. No one intends to win stupid forum fights on f13, but this crap has to be exposed every time.
There's a lot of people who give a shit, and it's growing. Get over it.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Ingmar on December 15, 2013, 08:06:28 PM
I'm with Nevermore and Falc. The character designs arent quite in the Tera "embarrassed to be a gamer" territory but they're pretty bad andtthere's no reason to not at least provide some choice. It isnt enough by itself to stop me from trying the game like it was, again, for Tera, but it is a significant minus.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: MediumHigh on December 15, 2013, 08:10:18 PM
Far too amoral to care if people are offended.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 15, 2013, 08:18:11 PM
Hyper-sexualisation and sexism are two different things, FYI.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Jherad on December 15, 2013, 08:36:21 PM
As much as I do agree with Falc that the hypersexualisation of female characters needs to be challenged, constantly, I think the article was silly and focused far too much on easily dismissible 'things that are totally not realistic in this made-up videogame'.

I expect that rather than deliberately creating sexualised female characters marketing to a male teen audience, they've basically hired a lead artist heavily influenced by old comic fantasy style (he lists his influences as including Battle Chasers and Tank Girl), and the wildstar dev team have happily (and thoughtlessly) gone with the flow. Because the team is a bunch of nerdy gamer boys.

If you're going to tackle that problem - and it IS still a problem, then ultimately dev studios need to hire more women in lead roles.


Title: Re: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"
Post by: Paelos on December 15, 2013, 09:09:15 PM
I don't think the game itself will garner anywhe