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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979500 times)
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #875 on: August 19, 2013, 02:43:00 PM

The only thing to see here is how big of crater it makes.

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Pennilenko
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Reply #876 on: August 19, 2013, 02:45:07 PM

I despise free to play. With only two exceptions since the free to play madness started, the best way to get me to not give you a dime is to be a free to play game.

As far as I am concerned, free to play really means free to spend a much larger amount of money than fifteen dollars a month. A large portion of the free to play market requires a much heavier investment to get the most out of the game than the traditional sub model used to cost.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #877 on: August 19, 2013, 03:03:42 PM

It's no coincidence F2P and 3-D movies came out in the same time frame.  The more people getting online and playing games, the more savvy they are becoming and noticing the gimmicks for what they are.

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Ingmar
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Reply #878 on: August 19, 2013, 03:05:22 PM

Most of the games that converted from sub still offer a subscription option that pretty much covers all your needs, though. I don't really care when games go F2P as long as there's a subscription option with appropriate perks.

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Evildrider
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Reply #879 on: August 19, 2013, 03:39:31 PM

If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.

I think when people start realizing how much they spend on store items and crap they'll realize they aren't that far off or exceeding sub costs. 
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #880 on: August 19, 2013, 03:43:39 PM

If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

I think your wrong. For the record.

I think when people start realizing how much they spend on store items and crap they'll realize they aren't that far off or exceeding sub costs. 


This is exactly it, it's a cash grab by publishers and people are already becoming savvy to it.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Pennilenko
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Reply #881 on: August 19, 2013, 03:49:30 PM

Planetside 2 is a big offender.

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Venkman
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Reply #882 on: August 19, 2013, 03:56:43 PM

Yes companies make huge bank off of the percentage of players will to invest deep via f2p. But I'm intrigued they have the confidence to offer a $60+subs model.

I'd say keep the NDA in place until launch, peddle the heck out of it, get their 2-3 months of subs, and then f2p it. Can they out-WoW while WoW continues to decline? Kinda doesn't matter, because out-WoWing WoW is no longer the requirement when the players WoW is shedding may not even be staying in MMOs anymore. So maybe there's room for a smaller game to become a relatively bigger fish by being like-WoW enough to be the viable alternative that no other game in the last bunch of years has been able to be.

None of it matters (/existential), but nice to see someone trying hard anyway.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #883 on: August 19, 2013, 04:07:55 PM

Trying to top wow is ridiculous, getting a million subs on a subscription model is enough to keep the company rolling in cash, let alone 7-11million.  Going F2P usually means your game is <1mil and let's be honest, most mmo's in the last 5years have not been AAA titles. Even SWTOR which was dubbed a kingslayer was a half-baked,underfunded and bland experience.

We don't KNOW if mmo's can exist on a sub model beyond wow because no one has invested enough time to make one good enough to deserve it.

Can Wildstar? I don't know but they are trying.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Simond
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Reply #884 on: August 19, 2013, 04:36:29 PM

Awful lot of completely wrong people in the last couple of pages. Subs-based MMOs are essentially dead unless you are WoW; that's not an opinion, that's a fact

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Pennilenko
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Reply #885 on: August 19, 2013, 04:38:53 PM

Awful lot of completely wrong people in the last couple of pages. Subs-based MMOs are essentially dead unless you are WoW; that's not an opinion, that's a fact

Care to um, you know, provide credible citations. Since it's a fact and all.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Typhon
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Reply #886 on: August 19, 2013, 04:47:49 PM

Ahhhh, feeling a sense of closure.

Also, "FREE" TO PLAY IS HERE TO STAY!
Simond
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Reply #887 on: August 19, 2013, 04:52:09 PM

Awful lot of completely wrong people in the last couple of pages. Subs-based MMOs are essentially dead unless you are WoW; that's not an opinion, that's a fact

Care to um, you know, provide credible citations. Since it's a fact and all.
Here's a better idea: Name me half a dozen sub-only MMOS with subscriber numbers in six digits.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Kageru
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Reply #888 on: August 19, 2013, 05:24:01 PM


Sub numbers are not really that good a way to measure f2p titles, you'd need revenue and you are not going to get that.

The fact that an ageing and fading WoW is still generating obscene revenue is enough evidence the sub model remains potentially viable. But I'd suspect it's also extremely competitive in that only the dominant game in a niche can make it work. The also ran's give up and go f2p.

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Shatter
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Reply #889 on: August 19, 2013, 06:21:47 PM

We haven't seen an MMO with a really strong F2P model that wrecks bank accounts yet, but the potential is there to make a lot more then $15 a month from players on a consistent basis
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #890 on: August 19, 2013, 06:33:44 PM

I like how Simond white knights wow in those forums yet "sub models are dead, fact!" comes up here. Look, wow is a popular game, most mmo's made in the last 5 years are, kinda shitty. You know what uses subscription models? Nearly every bill you have.

Phones,Electric,Rent,Internet,Cable,Water,Trash,Mortage. The list is endless.

Before you say "But this has jack shit to do with games!" people have been paying for subscription based services for hundreds of years and it is not going to go away in those mediums or in gaming.  It is about providing content and value for the dollar you spend.  All a game needs to do is provide content and value equal to subscription money and you win.   Thus far WoW has been the only game to provide content that people felt worth their money to such a large extent.

Shit, people pay gym fees for access to literal treadmills, you think that paying for ones where you get to cyber purple chicks is gonna disappear?

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Evildrider
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Reply #891 on: August 19, 2013, 06:46:32 PM

Meh, I still pay a sub to SWTOR cuz it's worth it to me.  I'd be spending more to do what I want with the F2P model.  As a matter of fact, no one in my circle of raiders/pvp'ers/etc. uses f2p at all. 

If SWTOR was putting out content at a consistent rate, as it has been this year, I bet they could've kept their sub only plan.  However they launched a bit to early and light on some aspects of the game, which is why they went f2p.  I bet they are very happy with that plan as every time they launch a new cartel pack they are raking in the money.
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Reply #892 on: August 19, 2013, 07:20:43 PM

If you think F2P as a model is going to last the next five years you are crazy.

It's lasted the previous 10+ years and is fuelling the social / mobile games boom. F2P isn't going away.

Besides, the future (and current) situation of MMO payment models is hybrid, not pure subs or pure F2P. Companies are happy to get $15 a month or happy to get $2 a hat.

The problem with thinking subs are coming back as the only true payment model is that you are only looking at one game in isolation, not the range of options available to you. Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality, and even in the area of quality F2P has picked up its socks a lot over the past few years.

WoW keeps its subs because it is WoW and has already leapt that hurdle of getting players to sign up for sub fees.

As for Carbine not launching this as F2P: it's been in development for what, 7 years? Those box costs are going straight towards paying some of that debt. It's an early adopter tax.

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #893 on: August 19, 2013, 08:02:50 PM

Quote
Free trumps a lot of things in terms of quality

No.

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Kageru
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Reply #894 on: August 19, 2013, 09:00:13 PM


There's no reason to assume there's a "one size fits all" answer to the question of monetization.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #895 on: August 19, 2013, 09:36:31 PM


There's no reason to assume there's a "one size fits all" answer to the question of monetization.


This I very much agree with.  Starbucks and Mcdonalds both serve coffee and both are doing well in the coffee dept with no sense that one is hurting the other.  I don't think F2P is going to disappear completely but the fad will be very much dead sooner than later.

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Margalis
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Reply #896 on: August 19, 2013, 11:56:04 PM

I think as F2P becomes the norm paid games will have higher perceived value. In essence "this game is not free to play, it must be extra special!"

I think you are starting to see that now already, with people expressing "just let me pay up front for a good game, rather than being nickle-and-dimed for a mediocre 'free' one."

I don't think F2P is a fad, but I do think simple games where you pay obscene amounts for energy, gems and Smurfberries are a fad. Low barrier to entry, very little differentiation between titles, reliance on tricks rather than quality, etc. There's also the issue of someone playing a game for a while, stopping, then realizing they spent hundreds of dollars and didn't even really enjoy it. That can only happen so many times per person.

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Typhon
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Reply #897 on: August 20, 2013, 06:08:16 AM

For the majority posting here, 'stickiness' is a term that simply does not apply.  You will not pay to play for an extended period of time.  That extended period of time is the one month free grace period.  It's funny that f13 wants a sub model because if the f13 demographic was the majority demographic... well, no wonder so many companies are trying something besides the sub model.

I agree that for a 2013+ game, that game must must be something special to justify a sub model.  "Something special" must be better than GW2, RIFT or SWTOR AT LAUNCH, unless it is providing something new and unique.   If there is nothing new, such as in Wildstar, the game development will requires a large investment that will not be covered by box-sale alone.  Likely these games will be based upon something like "500K+ subs stay three months covers our costs, need six months to turn a profit and get them to the next expansion".

F2P has no such barrier.  Hell, most of the games launch and start taking cash in 'beta' and players understand that the game is not complete.  MWO, War Thunder, Warframe and Marvel Online are the games to watch.  MWO and War Thunder are fucking themselves over in bizarre designs and economy models and will likely fail.  But Warframe and Marvel Online are actually releasing interesting updates on a decent schedule.  Because it's F2P and the game design supports casual infrequent play the game is healthy regardless of any particular portion of the player base getting bored and moving on - because the  the player base has no barrier to re-entry.  Because there is no sub-model, gamers are also less likely to have a "screw it, I'm canceling, removing this from my hard drive and posting a good bye on the boards" moments.  This is the real power of F2P (I'm including box-sale only in this category) - this model is more sticky than a sub-based game.  There is no closure.  You can always return, and you don't need to feel dirty doing so because it's all casual.

I agree that game companies must return to their roots.  I think those roots are "box sale".  I think we'll see more and more adopting GW2, Starcraft and Diablo model and "online" will simply be something that is required of all games (see Borderlands, CoD, Battlefield, etc).  Most will implement some form of cosmetic or ease-of-use cash shop because who doesn't like alternate revenue streams?
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Reply #898 on: August 20, 2013, 08:06:16 AM

Anyone who thinks that f2p or b2p with cash shop are going to be replaced as the common/dominant form of mmo by the return of the old sub model is a fucking idiot.

Mortgages have fuckall to do with MMO subs. WoW is until proven otherwise the last of a dying breed of game where its the only game its players even think to play. We are well past the one online game at a time era. Which means subs are really unappealing to most gamers because I won't be playing your sub game during a month where GW2 releases something new or TSW releases something new or my static for some f2p wants to play again or I go on a Dota/LoL binge or Payday 2 or some other new hotness co-op game comes out or a friend finally decides to try Warframe or everyone goes back to D3 because of a patch. Any of those things will take up temporarily most of my online gaming time. I think all of those things reduce the appeal of the sub based mmo greatly.

We haven't seen an MMO with a really strong F2P model that wrecks bank accounts yet, but the potential is there to make a lot more then $15 a month from players on a consistent basis

I don't think you are correct at all that we haven't seen this.

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satael
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Reply #899 on: August 20, 2013, 09:01:18 AM

I'd guess (since there really isn't any hard data that I know to back me up) that there might be a market for subscription based MMOs in the future too but they'll be more niche/specialized and smaller in scale. MMOs with AAA production values (costs) will probably be b2p (at launch and maybe f2p later) with something like "season passes" to provide "subscription fee" in addition to DLC/cash shop.
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Reply #900 on: August 20, 2013, 09:05:26 AM

I know people that have played EQ for years, WoW for well over 5 years now.  People constantly buy the newest FiFA,Madden and COD games which are almost always the same game with a bit of shiny thrown in.  The previous is not the best comparison but the fact that people are sticky with games is without question, the only question is are the games good enough to be 'sticky'

You can say the ground here doesn't hang around mmo's long but honestly most of them have not been worth hanging around in.  If/When another game with a wow level of polish comes around i will be one played for years, whether it's a wow killer is besides the point.

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HaemishM
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Reply #901 on: August 20, 2013, 09:57:58 AM

Here's an honest question to those thinking the F2P model is on borrowed time. How many MMOG's that are currently F2P do you honestly think would still be in existence if they were still sub-based?

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #902 on: August 20, 2013, 10:17:05 AM

That's like asking how many indie games would be on shelves at walmart if steam didn't exist. I don't think F2P is going to disappear nor will F2P mmo's but they will be seen as the bargain bin product, which is what they actually are.  There simply aren't enough premium alternatives that are worth subscription fees bu as F2P becomes more dated you find more people even in the mobile game space just wanting a real game(and willing to pay extra for it) not a nickel and dime "buy coins!" model.

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Simond
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Reply #903 on: August 20, 2013, 10:43:56 AM

That's like asking how many indie games would be on shelves at walmart if steam didn't exist. I don't think F2P is going to disappear nor will F2P mmo's but they will be seen as the bargain bin product, which is what they actually are.  There simply aren't enough premium alternatives that are worth subscription fees bu as F2P becomes more dated you find more people even in the mobile game space just wanting a real game(and willing to pay extra for it) not a nickel and dime "buy coins!" model.
Why do you think the general public is going to view F2P as budget rather than just the norm?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:51:16 AM by Simond »

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tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #904 on: August 20, 2013, 11:10:07 AM

In the current environment it appears impossible to deliver enough service and content to justify $15/mo.  All that have promised have failed. EvE and WoW get by grandfathered in under the old system because players have a decade invested.  Look, SWTOR was as AAA as it gets and it cratered under sub and prospered on f2p. We all know MMO do what is safe, and does subs look safer than f2p? EQN is not talking subs.  If Sony doesn't think it can make your "premium" MMO with their flagship property who can?

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Nebu
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Reply #905 on: August 20, 2013, 11:15:11 AM

Couldn't lowering the subscription price be another option?  Expectations at $15 a month are different from $10 or even $5 a month.  Perhaps even a hybrid model might emerge. 


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luckton
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Reply #906 on: August 20, 2013, 11:15:54 AM

In hindsight, SWTOR was WoW Vanilla with a Star Wars skin and fancied up quest-giver interactions.  It didn't have anything that WoW added post-launch, nor a customizable UI, all of which got cobbled together and patched in SLOWLY over the months post it's own launch.

I would not consider SWTOR on the same level as I would WoW if they both launched at the same time.  LotRO is more comparable.

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Simond
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Reply #907 on: August 20, 2013, 11:20:25 AM

In hindsight, SWTOR was WoW Vanilla with a Star Wars skin and fancied up quest-giver interactions.
"Hindsight"? Sure, remember it that way.  Ohhhhh, I see.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Margalis
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Reply #908 on: August 20, 2013, 11:21:08 AM

An MMO with a sub fee has a low upper bound on what people can spend, and even if it has micro-transactions and people can theoretically pay both for subs and the micro-transactions the monthly fee is a barrier to that unbounded spending.

I think sub fees make more sense for niche games that want to keep out the F2P rabble and have dedicated fans, especially if it can be at a longer schedule than monthly. So subscription MMOs become the boutique ones, not the mass market ones.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:24:05 AM by Margalis »

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Reply #909 on: August 20, 2013, 11:26:47 AM

I would not consider SWTOR on the same level as I would WoW if they both launched at the same time.

Neither would I, but I'd have them the other way around from you.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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