f13.net

This is a long story, boring I guess. I am at a loss as my American friends are being ridiculously unhelpful. I am worried, hurt, and confused.



What did I do?

Last August me, two girlfriends and a guy photographer went to the Arb, a large green area in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which looks public but belongs to the University of Michigan, for a naked photoshoot. We went early in the morning, to avoid people, and we crossed a large but shallow river to get on the other side of it, which is kind of wild and easy to hide into. The girls were posing naked, the photographer was doing his job, I was just hanging around.

At some point we noticed a group of young boy scouts on the other side of the river. The river is wide not less than 150 feet, so they seemed distant enough and we were all partially covered by foliage. We thought they didn't see us.

After 30 minutes a police car shows up on the other side of the river, same spot where the boy scouts were. Two cops are clearly looking our way, hard to say if they can see us. We freeze, but after about one minute they leave. The girls cover up, and we leave in a rush. We ford the river back and on our way out of the park (so basically like 20 minutes after the cop car showed up) they intercept us on our way back.

They ask what were we doing, we say it without hiding anything: "artistical photos" for an art project at U of M. Do we have authorization from the University? No sir. They immeditely confiscate the photographer's cameras and lens and then provide to identify us all. They don't ask who was naked and who wasn't or who was doing the photos and who wasn't, so we assumed they got those informations from what they saw themselves and what the chief scout reported them (yes, he's the one who called the cops reporting naked chicks in the park). They BAN us from the park and tell us we will hear from the prosecutor soon enough. That is all, we are free to go.

They acknowledge I am not American, they don't ask if I am planning to stay or not, they only ask where they can find me and we give them the address of the girlfriend I am staying at. They write down my credentials using my Italian driver's license, so I assume they have all my correct and complete informations, address and name.

Ten days later I leave the country as planned. At that point no one of us had heard nothing from the police or court.



What happened after that?

I've been incredibly naive. I am so mad at myself for this. Me and my friends talked about it. I was worried and even more so worried of being charged something I couldn't face, as I was going back to Italy. They told me I knew nothing of the US legal system and I had nothing to worry about since I was doing nothing so they certainly wouldn't have cared about me. I objected that they didn't necessarily saw what was happening, and for all they knew I could have been a model too, or a photographer so I was reasonably worried but I've been told so many times that I was worrying about nothing, and almost mocked for trying to (according to them) get street cred for it that I dropped the ball. I left for Italy without thinking about it anymore.

After a while, my friends talked to their lawyers and at some point they had to face a judge for 5 minutes where they pleaded themselves as innocent.

I asked my friends to ask their lawyers about my position, but they told me their lawyers said I had nothing to worry about as if I was supposed to show up I would have received a notification for that. So, if I didn't receive anything it was clearly a sign that the prosecutor was not interested in me, as he/she probably realized I was doing nothing. I was wondering if it was a good idea to just wait idly, not even knowing if they can "summon" you from another country, but again  let it go as these friends seemed super cool about the fact that I was fine.

Once again, I trusted their "knowledge" and words, and did nothing.



The Bench Warrant

Out of the blue, the friend informs me via IM that apparently there is a bench warrant to my name, as I didn't show up in court. I freak out.

A few facts:

- I asked who told them that, and they say "their lawyer".
- I asked how do the lawyer knows, and they say "he got a police report".
- I ask to send me a copy of the police report as I need to know what am I charged for, and they tell me "we don't have the report, only our lawyer has it and he read it to us on the phone".
- I ask can I call your lawyer so he will tell me in details what does it say about me, and they tell me the lawyer is on their payroll so they are afraid he would charge them for my call, but that it's pointless as apparently I am mentioned on the reports as an "Italian woman" (??!?) and m name is crooked. so I shouldn't worry as they fucked the reports up and that means I am gonna be ok.
- I ask them what name am I reported with and they say don't know, the lawyer only briefly mentioned that on the phone and apparently didn't explain much about this "Italian woman".
- I ask again and again to have more info about this thing, as I don't think that being confused for someone else is eventually gonna help my case, since they could have messed up a part of the report but they certainly have my real ID number so it shouldn't be too hard to fix the messup, but I got told that I'm freaking out over nothing, they can't touch me in Italy, they have the wrong person's name, and that I was doing nothing anyway so I will end up being clean.

And still, when asked about my situation, this lawyer told them that I will be fine, as long as I stay away from Michigan. And I shouldn't try to get in the country as I could be held at border control as my name would show up along with the warrant (not to mention the charge is potentially a "sexual" charge).

So I freak out even more. I ask for more information, I ask to talk to their lawyer, I ask to have the courthouse phone number to call them and explain I knew nothing but I have the goodwill to fix this, I ask for any phone number I could get to help my case and clear my name, including the police phone number and the cops who busted us (they gave us a business card back then) or eventually face what I am supposed to face, as I DO PLAN to go back to Michigan and last thing I want is to be bounced back at the airport, or to be held in custody as soon as they check my ID.

And again, and so far, I got no help from these friends. They keep saying I am freaking out over nothing, they don't know much tehmselves, that I should just wait for their lawyer to talk to the prosecutor for THEIR (not mine) pre-trial thing on november 2nd (their lawyer is not gonna talk about me to the prosecutor, is he?). They keep saying "they are not looking for you, a bench warrant is a very passive thing", but seems to me they are not realizing what my problem is: problem is, being allowed to fly back to Michigan without risking of being bounced back at the airport, or worse, to be held in custody or something during one of my brief visits.

They even keep saying that "You are ok since you didn't get a notify due to their mistakes, so how could you showup? You did nothing wrong". Which I agree with, but since the bench warrant has been emitted, I don't think they are eventually gonna let me in the country based on "hey, it's your fault!". They are eventually gonna enforce it, and THEN later see if I had good reasons. Am I wrong?

How the hell am I supposed to keep cool knowing that I can't go back in the US? Am i really freaking out over nothing? Please, tell me.


To make things more fishy, I received yesterday the notification of a letter from the Italian post office. Means I have to go there and sign upon showing ID to get it. Problem is, the address is my address, but the first name is wrong, it's a FEMALE name (no one else with my last name in my building, in fact it's a pretty rare last name). So, I go to the post office, I explain my reasons, and they understand but can't give me the letter as the name on my ID doesn't match the name on the envelope. They show me the envelope and it is from "Italian Police department of Immigration". What do you think it is?!? And I cannot get it! They won't give it to me.

Now, questions:
- is the name mess helping my cause as I didn't show up because I wasn't properly notified?
or
- is the name mess hurting my cause as I didn't show up, period (and then eventually I'll be cleared for that later on)?

More realistically, how much can I do to clean the mess up from Italy, and have the bench warrant removed and changed into a non-hostile "invitation" to show up?
What should I do, at this point, considering all the mistakes and the lack of informations, and the mess up, to make sure I can get into the US without problems and eventually facing my charges without being "held" for it, and how likely is for a bench warrant to show up at border control and prevent me from getting in the country?

What the hell should I do? Who should I call, to prove my goodwill to clear up the mess up, and explain why I wasn't there? Should I get a lawyer in the US? should I get a lawyer over the phone? Should I call the prosecutor myself? I am lost.

Sorry for the confusion. I could really use ANY kind of help here.  :uhrr:

I just received this from one of the friends:


Should I trust it?

I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess your gut instinct here is right.

You should definitely consult a lawyer. Well-meaning friends are well-meaning but the legal system is a maze of clusterfuckery, usually only successfully navigated by paying some shyster too much money to schmooze with the right people and craft the correct sounding legal phrases for the paperwork.

Your Mileage May Vary and I Am Not A Lawyer.

I am not a lawyer.

What I found on the interweb so far says your friends (and probably you as well) are probably charged with "Indecent Exposure".

You probably have a bench warrant against you for "Failure to Appear"/"Contempt of Court". There doesn't appear to be statute of limitations on bench warrants (it won't just go away).

If you fly into Michigan on an international flight you will probably be arrested.


You could contact a lawyer before their trial date or you could wait until after it and see if the issue was resolved first.

Here was a link to find a Michigan laywer:
http://www.michbar.org/generalinfo/libraries/findlawyer.cfm

Edit:
You could also try contacting the Italian consulate in Michigan.

Consolato di I classe d'Italia in Detroit

535 Griswold - Buhl Building, Suite 1840
Detroit, Michigan 48226, Stati Uniti d'America

Tel: (313) 963-8560
Fax: (313) 963-8180

E-mail: inform.detroit@esteri.it

Just never go back to Michigan :awesome_for_real:

Unfortunately every one on this site who is a lawyer won't be able to give you advice (liability purposes), so I suggest you consult with a lawyer in Michigan. Try and find one that won't try to charge you just to figure out if you have a problem.

OTOH the name on the warrant isn't his (and is even female) so maybe he can get away with just ignoring it and pretending not to know who this mystery woman is if he's ever stopped by the police :awesome_for_real:

Alternatively talk to a lawyer, possibly get in touch with your friend's lawyer or ask if they can recommend anyone who could help you and try to sort it before flying back into the US.

Since all the good advice is to call a Michigan lawyer. I'm going to comment on you coming to the US and scoring a ringside seat for an awesome photo shoot. I would definitely say it was worth it you Italian player.

I would really not ignore it given that it involves a sex crime and a child. While the notion that this is a sex crime against a child is absolutely ludicrous, the US isn't really living in the real world. Also, the boy scouts in the US are a right wing organization with heavy religious aspects and the leader or parents may be pushing this from behind.

Once you get this sorted out, rule of thumb in the USA: Don't do nude photo shoots in a place where people could possibly catch sight of boob or rump or sausage. You could beat the shit out of someone right next to a lot of people and no one would do much but go about their merry business, but the second some nekkid flesh shows up it is OMG TEH CHILDRUNZ.

Get your own lawyer.

And also some non-braindead friends.

spend the money and get this sorted out now.  Don't assume anything positive. 

If you ignore this warrant it will very probably only get more expensive to resolve in the future.

We'd need to see copies of the pictures before we can give any good advice on how to proceed.

This.

This

My Bullshit detector went to overload

How good are these friends? How well do you know them?

Female Name on warrant?  
Was the initial the same as your first name?  
Did the cops only take the initial?
Have your "friends" Named YOU as one of the women in the photos and basically blamed you as the person who was exposing themselves to a minor?
Maybe the photos didnt come out and they name YOU as the only model
You need to see the court papers and that means

Get your own lawyer.

You should macro this if you haven't already, Ab. It might save you some time in the general forums. Possibly put it in your sig?

Also, "Ok then, good luck with that."

That was a magic bit of happiness, that.

Get your own lawyer.

And possibly go the American consulate in Italy and see what they recommend.

Here's the thing...

All of the worlds major background checks/visa/etc are starting to slowly get integrated.  Interpol, FBI, etc.  You run the risk your issue in the US being uploaded to the system and picked up by Interpol (or some other) and being denied/arrested when your data is run before they allow you into the country.  If you fly, the airline uploads a pax manifest to the airport, and you're 'prescreened' before you arrive.  When you arrive and go through their Customs, when they scan your passport you might get flagged.

Get a lawyer.

Actually that's a really good point. This isn't only a problem if you're going to be going back to the US, an active warrant could end up being an issue if you want to use airplanes ever again.

Do this.

They'll have a better cultural understanding of both sides of this issue, and can if necessary, direct you to a lawyer who can make sure that you are protected and represented.  Your friends might mean well, but they're paying the lawyers to handler their case, not yours.

No kidding!  I miss Europe with the go take a shower with the girls music fests.

This is so depressing.

First of all, let me thank you all. Some of the info here are precious, and somehow I feel supported. I'm emo enough to feel better by sharing with a bunch of secretly caring cynical bastards. So thank you, f13. That said, my friends are more than friends. Lovers, partners... and naive beyond reason. As I said, I am mad at me for knowing this and still trusting them. I guess somehow I topped their naïveté and I can probably only blame myself for that. Still, fuck. I know I would have been more helpful so, of course, that makes me feel a bit betrayed and totally pissed off. Ah well.

Tomorrow I'll call the consulate. Seems like the most reasonable thing to do. Getting a lawyer from here seems overly complicated for now and if that is what I need I am sure the consulate will be able to point me in the right direction.


A few answers:


Female Name on warrant?  
Was the initial the same as your first name?  
Did the cops only take the initial?

I guess what happened is that since I have three "first names", the cops only took the initials. I don't know this, I can only assume it. Then they wrote the report in a messy way and since my role in the photoshoot was unclear whoever transcribed it decided I was one of the models, especially cause on my driver's license (the ID I provided when they got us) gender is not specified. The cops who busted us know I am a man, but I guess they passed the paper to someone else who mixed it up somehow. I guess the fact my name is gender-ambiguous didn't help.



Have your "friends" Named YOU as one of the women in the photos and basically blamed you as the person who was exposing themselves to a minor?

No way. First of all, my friends never talked to anyone. They only saw a judged who asked if they pleaded guilty or not-guilty. The paper that lists me as a woman is, apparently, the police report from when they got us. Second, despite being kind of idiotic about this, they are more than friends. No way, or reason, to backstab me.
Finally, no one exposed herself to minors. Minors were 150 feet away on the other shore of a river and when we noticed they were kind of staring in our direction (believe me, they had to look hard for us, the girls froze and tried to cover themselves until they left (for good, we thought). I was dressed all the time and while I took some casual side photos with my personal 100$ digital camera, no one ever mentioned that. The cops confiscated everything from the photographer, but showed absolutely no interest in me when they took our IDs, didn't look in my pockets and so my camera and its photos simply don't exist.



Maybe the photos didnt come out and they name YOU as the only model

The real photos did come out. The prosecutor has it and I am in zero of them. Actually the photos are the main defense point of my girlfriends, as they are gonna use them to prove the "artistic value" and the absolutely non-sexual nature of it.



You need to see the court papers and that means get your own lawyer.

Yeah. What pisses me off is that I would feel so much better if I could simply contact one of their moronic lawyers and have the fucking paper read out loud to me on the phone. Sounds like a 3 minutes thing. I don't understand how can that be so complicated.



And finally:


Ha. Once the whole story will be happily over, I'll post them on the place where they were supposed to be posted, and I'll give you linkies. It's art, isn't it?

I told my wife about this (attorney) and she said the same - it's likely that they don't have anything on you, but nonetheless contact the embassy in Michigan.  You don't want to be picked up out of the blue 20 years for this. 

Also for future reference, Americans are prudes about being nude.  Don't get naked (or participate in a shoot) anywhere that isn't a home with drapes drawn, a modeling studio, or a nudist colony.  Or invite them to Europe for such shoots.

I suppose that also holds for smoking cannabis?   :sad_panda:

Thing is, they did it before. Same place, and many others. Of course this means shit now, as the time you are gonna remember is the one when they busted you, but everyone was confident it was gonna be ok cause, you know, "haha, don't worry! This place is very liberal you know? Of course it would be different in Alabama, but here it's ok. No one is gonna have a problem with that!"   :awesome_for_real:

Actually you'd be better off naked in Alabama. As long as you painted yourself Crimson first.  :why_so_serious:

Your friend's lawyer has no interest in helping you, only his clients, your friends.  At some point their lawyer may decide "pin it all on the foreigner" to get his clients off and you'll have nobody protecting your interests.

So yeah, get a lawyer.

Also; if you're doing nudity in public in the US.  Look around first, THEN get naked.  If you see ANYONE else, don't do it.  Doesn't matter how far away they are.  We're Americans and breasts/ nudity are anathema.  Also, when you do it get it over quick. 3-4 mins tops.  Or else just do it in someone's house - with the curtains drawn - if anyone on the street can see you it'll still be a problem.

Well, photo shoots like this are meant to happen in specific scenic locations, and that's why we were in such a natural place. The guy is a professional and the theme of the shoot was "wood nymphs".
Also, we went there at like 7am and no one was around... for a while. Clearly, you (and everyone else) are right Merusk. I am surprised they were SO clueless and so naive. I would have known better than thinking it was ok to do that in a Roman park, but right there I was being mocked for being a carebear ( :drillf: ) and knowing nothing about Ann Arbor.

Muck Fichigan

Well here's your reality check. All our photographed naked people are confined to one specific valley in California.

However, we do have a top ten nude RV Parks. http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-nude-rv-camping-spots-america.html (http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-nude-rv-camping-spots-america.html)

 :ye_gods:

Michigan had a 'cussing law' up until 2002....  Beautiful state, but christ it's about as narrowminded as I've seen.

Falconeer...

I wished you had asked in another year...then I'd be able to answer the question. As such...

1 - Get better friends
2 - Call your Consulate
3 - Call a lawyer
4 - Interpol won't be picking you up, as they're not actually cops with arrest authority...but they could theoretically hand the info to someone who can...in theory.

Seeing how most scout captains are into little boys, I see why would they object to seeing naked female body in the distance.

 :heartbreak:  

We have our share of that. Most states do. Way to generalize. I suppose I could say everyone from the South is a hardcore Christian but that would be nonsense too.

We've got the fresh water, raw materials, beautiful scenery, lakes, herds of delicious deer, excellent cannabis, quality microbrews, cereal, fish, wood, Vernor's Ginger Ale, Faygo, Halo Burger, Big John's Steak and Onion, an awesome Detroit techno scene, all four seasons, and we're not Ohio.

What more do you want from us?!?!?!  :grin:

But that's your biggest problem!  j/k - I grew up in Toledo... so I was half Michigander anyways.  You got Detroit, we've got Cleveland. 

My friends from Michigan have unpleasant things to say about most of the populace.  It's why they don't live there. ;D

Not to derail Falconeer's thread any further but, as a Michigander, fuck Vernor's. Seriously. That shit is vile.

You are broken. Vernor's is awesome.

Really, this is what you meant to say.

So. About those pictures...  :grin:

You had us at "boobs".

In Ann Arbor, they pretty much don't care. they host the Hash Bash annually, and it's some minor fine if you are caught with a reasonable amount.

Not sure how I remember this, but didn't you say your friends were from the thumb area? I imagine the populace is shit there...but I'll never know cause why the hell would I want to live there! ;)

Small update:

I called the Ann Arbor courthouse and they said they sent me a letter to be in court October 12th. I said I never received anything. They said they sent it to my Ann Arbor address, which is the address of my friend I was staying at when they busted us, but friend didn't receive hers either! She showed up in court only because the other friend received it and told her about it. Neither of them thought it could be about me too so they forgot to mention it. Let's... not comment about this. ............

Still, I told the courthouse they have been dumb to send it to Ann Arbor since I was leaving the country and I told this to the cops and they had my Itlian address too, and they said they didn't get the mail back, so that's PROOF that I got it. How does it make any sense? What if the mailman just ate it? Shouldn't this kind of mail require a signature to be delivered? It's not a fucking postcard, it requires a signature here to be delivered, or it goes back to the sender. How can a courthouse be run so randomly?

Chasing down a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer is serious business. I'm writing my congressman tonight!

Not sure if it applies in the US, but there is a thing called the postal acceptance rule: if it is in the post, you've assumed to have received it nigh-on immediately. It's to avoid the "I never received this" excuse that would be / is thrown up by everyone ever sent a legal letter / fine.

That it wasn't sent back indicates that someone at least accepted the mail, even if they just threw it straight into the bin.

It's like that in Norway as well, but I'd consider it a pretty dick move to send it non-recommended. At the very least there should be some form of actual verification that it has been received, and by who.

Exactly!
The way UnSub puts it means that if for any reason the mailman/mailwoman or someone in the building wants to fuck with you they just can. In Italy, a place I would never use as a good example for anything, you have to SIGN to get that kind of mail. If no one signs for it, it goes back to the sender. This way, if the letter gets delivered they at least know _who_ accepted it. No need to specify that if you refuse to sign for it... the judge is not gonna take it very well.


How flawed is this?

But then you can just refuse to sign it if you know a legal document (such as a summons) is coming, or you can sign under a certain name and say "someone else was there and didn't give it to me" or a whole bunch of other ways someone can con the system into making it seem like they didn't get something they are intentionally trying to avoid. 

Thus why there was an article about a summons being given over facebook and courts agreeing that it was acceptable and counted as received.   

The possibility of a con transformed the whole system.. in a con!
I've been conned here, as there's a warrant to my name because some idiot played paper planes with my summon.

I would think that the courts would send it registered mail (IE: postal service offers proof that it was shoved into the right mailbox) to your legal address on file.

Your embassy should be able to straighten it out, insofar as the courts seem to be rather obviously wrong in insisting a foreign citizen has a US address to deliver a court summons to. If nothing else, they could have it delivered to your consulate or whatever. But sending it to a US address? Which isn't your legal residence, or even in the country you claim citizenship in? Yeah, all that needs is a nasty-gram from a lawyer to straighten out.

Honestly sounds like the clerk involved doesn't give a shit and doesn't plan to fix it because you're not American, which means really you aren't his problem and are unlikely to cause him or her any grief.

now you're sounding like Nerf

Quick! Alert the media! :drill:

Con is short confidence.  The court or the police never had your confidence so you aren't be conned by them.  Your friends could possibly be conning you.  Being screwed by an incompetent bureaucracy doesn't pithy name as far as I know.

Ha. That was going to be my next line.  :why_so_serious:

Since when does confiscation of a camera depend whether you've permission to shoot somewhere or not? Since when can the police act on behalf of a private place (I take it that universities are private in the US) and take your shit? Is this the MO since 9/11 or what? If it was all about the children, why did they even ask?

I really know nothing about these things. But apprently the Nichols Arboretum (the tree area where they busted us) is a "public space" that actually belongs to the University of Michigan. And the police was "University of Michigan" police. Which, from an Italian perspective, is crazy. But we used to be commies down here, so I am not surprised for my inability to understand the level of privatization of things in the US.

State universities are owned by the state - and the 'university of michigan' rent-a-cops were actually state police, which have more authoity than just about any other type of non-federal LEO.

Beyond that, private property or no, theres not much 'private' in the US.  If you are furiously masturbating on your front porch in full view of the neighbors and any passer-bys, expect a visit from the cops, as you have no expectation of privacy on an area readily visible from outside of your private property.

Just a quick point about something further up the thread. The police don't care about the artistic nature of your work, they care about public nudity. It will make no difference to them whether you are Leni Riefenstahl or Larry Flynt, all they are going to be concerned about is did you have naked chicks in an area where teh childrunz could encounter you. Don't expect the 'it was art, officer' excuse to fly very far.

Go see a lawyer, you fucking tool.

Not even remotely. I mentioned that to only give you all "perspective". I doubt they will care, even though the court hearing for the two naked "models" is tomorrow, and they are totally gonna walk the artistic road to defend themselves, so I'll certainly have more info for you all.

It sounds like the court staff (shock!) really just care about getting the paperwork and such done. They have gone through their necessary legal hoops and will bone you for not going through yours because that's how it's done. They don't care that you living in another country makes this really fucking hard for you to do. So contact your local council/citizen's advice bureau or even an actual lawyer and find out if there's anyone specifically you should be dealing with and consider contacting the Italian embassy or consulate (if there's one local). If they'll argue for you then there's a good chance that having a nice big envelope with headed notepaper signed by someone important sounding from a foreign embassy will have more effect than your phone call. Obviously listen to some actual legal advice but I'd imagine the Italian embassy would be one of the best sources of info on US law and Italian citizens, even if it seems a bit weird to be contacting them from Italy.

The art angle might get them out of any sort of public lewdness or pornography charges though - IANAL but I'd be willing to bet that if it were actual porn being shot, there would be felony charges and sex offender database entries being thrown about.

IIRC any sort of public nudity conviction is going to land them in a sex offender database anyway.

The prosecutor and the judge have the memory cards with all the photos shot that day. Not even the slightest inch of porn. Only girls, nakedness, trees and a river. Not even an inch of lewd.
I'm curious to see what will happen tomorrow. Yes, "sex offenders database" is what everyone is most concerned with at the moment.

Edit: I called the Italian embassy/consulate in Detroit. They don't give a shit about it (shock!), as I am not in the US at the moment so basically unreachable and untouchable by American justice.

You forget that this was taken in the country where exploding brains is fine, bu t even a hint of nipple is bad (...or so I keep being lead to believe). I wouldn't expect much rationality in this case.

Naked = PORN

America, FUCK YEAH!

so - you have a lawyer showing up for you right? Right?

American != Europe. Our laws on boobies showing are a hell of a lot more restrictive.

Damn Puritians.

No.

I was supposed to show up on October 12th, not tomorrow. I missed the first step, so as far as I know I am not expected tomorrow. Again, I haven't been properly summoned (if I have been at all), which, when I'll  decide to go back to Michigan and I'll get a lawyer, will be the first thing he or she will stress out: I wasn't summoned properly.

From this I take it you haven't consulted with an actual lawyer yet...

If you don't take care of this soon, and I assume your visa was not a multi-entry (if you needed one)...you will not have much success next time you apply for one. Or next time you roll through a US airport, and I guarantee that you will prefer dealing with the American Embassy in Rome than DHS...

In most states, you can get a default judgment vacated pretty damn quickly. Even if you missed your date, you'd be utterly foolish to not seek counsel.

Try these guys (http://www.lsscm.org/) first. They're a legal aid clinic. You may not be eligible to receive their help, but they could likely point you to some local attorneys that could assist you.

Depends on the state and/or city - unless it has changed in the last few years, being topless in Texas is A-OK.  When I lived in Austin for a bit I had a cop buddy that like to sit at the coffee shop and talk about all the calls he responded to where middle-aged fat broads had called the police about public nudity.  He would always find a couple of 18-22 year old UTA students sunbathing topless, wish them well, and tell the ones who called that being topless is not a crime in our great state, so in the future please don't waste our time.

It's probably illegal in Dallas though, fuck Dallas.

Context is everything.

Getting trashed at a bar and throwing your bra up on the antlers of a mounted deer head = great american beauty
Prancing about in a park for the sake of art = danged liberal faggot, round 'em up!

I sent a fax to the courthouse this morning telling them I haven't been summoned and that I am very very sorry for not showing up. I never intended to evade justice, but I haven't been informed that I was supposed to have a hearing that's the only reason why they haven't seen me there. That I want to make things right and that I will eventually go back to Ann Arbor just for that, and that I am available for anything as long as they contact my to my right Italian address or my email or phone.
A hearty honest letter with apologies and a request to schedule a new hearing with the judge/prosecutor.

I am tempted (but I won't) to paste it here for some genuine laughs.

Did you consult with a lawyer about the letter or just write and send it yourself? If the latter I'm going to repeat myself and most other people in this thread and say talk to a fucking lawyer, it's a stupid bullshit thing but you aren't familiar with local laws let alone court procedure and it doesn't take a lot to make getting into the US suddenly a fuck load harder. None of these people are going to be inclined to be nice to you because you're foreign or because you haven't done anything wrong, a lawyer will be inclined to be nice to you because you're paying them. You may not even need them to do a lot and it might seem pointlessly expensive but be aware the worst case scenario is probably finding it really fucking hard to get back into the States.

While you could attempt to handle this yourself (pro se), and while courts are often a bit lenient with pro se defendants, for the love of all that is holy, get a damn lawyer.

Yall are being lame. Don't get a lawyer, Falc. The American government can't find anyone we are looking for once they leave the country. Just don't bother returning to the United States and everything should be just fine.

 :popcorn:

Depends on the municipality.  Oh you might get a cop that's amused enough to let one go, if they're good looking enough or they don't want to bother with the paperwork.

It's also illegal in any State Park for: 59.134(n) Public Nudity. It is an offense for any person to disrobe or appear nude in public. Females are considered to be disrobed when their breasts below the top of the areola are exposed except when nursing a baby.

Also while there is no state law against nudity, there are laws against lewdness and other behaviors which might happily get slapped on an 'offending' party.  Only idiots would risk it.  Further, Austin is very, very different from most of Texas.

Edit: Falc, if you ever want to come back to the states again, please listen to Slack and contact that aid group.  Don't give up on this.

Somehow I missed Slack's link. Today is the hearing for the girls. I'll call that group tomorrow, hopefully with some more info. Thanks everyone.

Did you explain to them in your fax that you're a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer?  It might scare them into thinking you're some sort of protected class and dropping the entire thing.

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.

He should hire this guy (http://www.27bslash6.com/trash.html) to do it.

I'm sorry, but that was just damn funny.

Good luck.  Looking forward to the booby pics.

Yeah, can't vouch for squat without ensuring the artistic value of the evidence.

Thanks for the new quote.

Update: one of the two girls just had her case postponed for two weeks more. On that day, either her case will be deferred (fine, volunteer time at a local jail, probation for 6 months, eventual drop of charges) or she will ask for a trial by jury. The other girl chose to go straight to trial by jury.

Any idea what the reasoning for going to jury is?

She pleaded not guilty, she is sure she will win  :oh_i_see:

Mind, she is one of the naked models. I was doing NOTHING. If she wins, I should be fine and dandy, shouldn't I? Shouldn't I?

And you guys were worried his friends might be malicious rather than clueless.

Lawyer. Get one.

Plenty of reasons to do a jury trial instead of a bench trial. Main one? Hoping the state will drop its case. With a small potatoes situation like this (for them, not you, the socialist polyamorous pansexual genderRARMUSLIM), one could hope the state won't want to waste the time.

No. You didn't show up. Which is a crime by itself. This won't go away by ignoring it. TALK TO YOUR CONSULATE. FIND A LAWYER.

They could dismiss the charges against your friends and you're still screwed, because you didn't show up to court. Stop bitching to us and bitch to your government. Or to a lawyer. Someone who can actually fix this for you.

That makes sense.  I was just thinking the likely jury pool will not be favorable to ruling for a naked lady.  Students are going to opt out, the educated are going to find a way to not get selected, so that leaves her retirees.

Or you can just put your head in the sand and never come to the us again.

And just wait for the extraordinary rendition. We've got practice snatching people in Italy, and your president is too busy to do things like protect you.

No, I figured the friends were clueless and was worried THEIR lawyer (you know, the thing Falconeer still won't hire.) was malicious.

I hope you're planning a trip back to the US, Falc.  The postings after your time served in a DHS cell will be fun.

Ann Arbor is an oddly hip area in a rather conservative state. Kind of the Austin of the North, I guess. My guess is that a jury could swing her way.  :awesome_for_real:

To be fair I wouldn't hire a lawyer at this stage either, he's a Euro guilty of nothing more than being near some boobs.

You mean that isn't a capital offense? :oh_i_see:

Or more precisely, that's what he was. He's now got a warrant and in contempt, yeah? Could be padded with giving a false name, too, depending on if he Nerfs it up too much. And fleeing the country.

Americans.  We're insane.  Ignore what should be the logical outcome and start thinking like a delusional paranoid crackpot.

Pretend you live in Alpha City and the Computer flagged you as mutant commie traitor scum.

Protect yourself.

That would be me.

(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic829852_md.jpg)

Man, I would be *awesome* at that game.

I guess I was being incredibly naive about the most likely result of his depraved activities.

<cowboyhat>

So, lemme get this straight...we got ourselves an I-Talian transdingaling queer as a steer hiding in the bushes while takin' pichurs of american boobies? Off to Gitmo.

</cowboyhat>

Sky said what I was going to on the topic.. so..


I never played it, but someone who did once relayed one of the rules to me.  If you, as a player, show too much knowledge about the rules, your PC is instantly killed.   Sounded like a really fun game.

I think I still have all the paranoia rulebooks.

Lesser sentence offer for one of the models: "Disorderly person, 6 months probation, community service at a jail, court fees."

EDIT: She refused, and hence the "Trial by jury".

I don't think a naked model doing community service at a jail is getting off with a slap on the wrist.

This really sounds like one of those things that would have been helped with rule #1:

Don't talk to cops. Ever.


Don't admit you were anywhere, don't admit you were doing anything. Don't tell them where you're going, what you where doing wherever you are. You didn't see anything.  If you aren't sure what your rights are, you can always ask before answering "Is that a command or a request?". If it's a request, politely decline. Obviously, traffic stops are different.

The US court system is an utter mess, and the best thing you can do is to try and stay out of it. Sadly, it sounds like everyone involved has discovered this first hand. Let this be a lesson to all of the rest. If everyone had kept their mouth shut on the way back, I suspect everyone would be in a much better position right now, if anyone was even charged at all.

And here's the video that goes with what Bhodi says, that everyone in the US should watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Heh.

I really didn't talk to them. They asked simple questions like "what were you doing, huh?", and the girls and the photographer briefly answered, admitting what we were doing. I remembered a thread or a series of posts from here on f13 about not talking to cops, so I didn't! Not much changed, other than they completely failed to read my address from my Italian ID, resulting in them sending the summon to a completely made up address. Oh yes, called the courthouse again yesterday and managed to get the address where they supposedly sent my summon: to my surprise, I never heard such address before, It is an Ann Arbor one but definitely not my girlfriend's place (and certainly not what's written on my ID!).

And, there's the problem. It probably won't affect you, but it's going to force that girl to plea bargain for community service in a prison plus likely thousands of bucks in court fees since she and the photographer have already admitted guilt for public nudity to the police. If she hadn't admitted what she was doing, they may not have even had cause to cite you. You weren't on scene and it seemed like they were too far away to reliably pinpoint that it was you; they were fishing and your friends leaped onto the hook. You should forward that to them :)

What exactly is community service in a prison? And are we really talking about thousands of bucks in court fees?

Um, I was quoting you? Court fees + lawyer could easily come to thousands of dollars. Sorry that I said prison and not jail. Trial by jury is expensive, and they pass those savings on!

Depending on how much it dragged on, yes.

Seriously dude, get a lawyer and stop calling people yourself.  It's one thing for me to play armchair lawyer when it's just me vs. some asshole, but the repercussions of this are a whole lot more daunting than a few thousand bucks of security deposit.

Our justice system is not just, and you won't get anywhere at all trying to do anything yourself - it's a system designed by lawyers and for lawyers, so hire one.  You shouldn't talk to anyone except your counsel.

Heh, no bhodi my question wasn't about jail or prison. It was about.. what exactly do they expect you to do at the prison/jail? We have nothing like community service in Italy (that I know of), so I have no idea.

And Nerf, yes I'll get a lawyer at some point, but I want that point to be as late as possible. I am not in a strong position with my case, but at least I can afford "not to care", from where I stand. Yes, I do want to be able to travel to the US again, but worst case scenario, really, I just won't. Or I will in a distant future, when I'll be able to afford a lawyer without risking thousands of bucks that I really don't have.

I am not saying I won't hire a lawyer or I'll just evade this whole thing. I am only saying that I want to hire a lawyer as late as possible. If that will hurt my cause even more, well, be it. I really can't afford getting a lawyer to do extra stuff for me, like finding out the few infos I got so far by myself, and I think the letter I sent to the judge is reasonable (court clerk advised me to do so on the phone). It would have been so much easier if someone I know pointed me to a trusted lawyer, but this didn't happen so at the moment, protected by the ocean, and stuck with random internet lawyers, I prefer to probe, wait and see.

And consulate said there's no extradition for the crime of watching naked girls in the park.

It's not going to cost you thousands of dollars right now, there's a good chance a lawyer can get your case dismissed and all you'll have to pay are his fees. If you don't sort out the fact that you didn't appear, while I don't know exactly what will happen, will probably be a lot worse and possibly turn into you being found at least in contempt of court or something similar. Easiest and cheapest way to deal with this would probably be get a lawyer to turn up, explain that the court screwed up which is why you didn't appear and if they don't have any real evidence beyond you being in the company of people who did something bad they'll probably be able to get your case dismissed.

If you leave this then you either won't be travelling to the US or may have some real headaches and cost before you ever manage to do so again. Seriously talk to someone even if it's your friend's lawyer and your going to be paying them. Ideally talk to someone in Italy or your Foreign Office about it.

Aye, that was good.  He sure can talk fast though.

Or, you know, contact the legal aid group that serves Ann Arbor. The one I linked. If they can't/won't help you, I would imagine they have a solid referral list.

Don't do that. Continue to do little-to-nothing and post about it daily on an internet forum. Above all, don't get a lawyer. They might fix it and then this thread would die.
 :why_so_serious:

Seriously man, be sensible. Do you want to be flagged as a sex offender by international law enforcement and "detained" when you try to catch a plane or drive across (even European) borders down the line? Even fucking Nerf has seen that you need to talk to a lawyer. Now.

Nerf was ready to go to court over a lawn. Then possibly unleash his batshit crazy pooch.

35 seconds into part 2 has the cop state how lucky everyone is to deal with the US legal system as opposed places like ........ Italy, which I thought was kinda funny.

I am almost to the point of actively hoping you get shafted at this point. You really need to wake the fuck up and start caring, or fuck off and never visit the US again.

It is hard to be a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer and not be flaky.

Falconeer, was the photographer Harvey Drouillard? (http://www.annarbor.com/news/photographer-harvey-plans-nude-shoot-for-ann-arbor-art-fairs/)

Why are Americans so afraid of nudity?  It cracks me up. 

Somebody explained it on the comments on the link I gave above.

No he was not, but this is funny. Cause Harvey Drouillard and that action the article is talking about is part of why everyone was so cool right after the accident: "I mean, fucking Harvey Drouillard did it on Liberty Street! You are all gonna get away with nothing, don't worreee..."  :awesome_for_real:

Trial by jury for having your fucking tits out. Only in Amerikkka!

And Michigan's not even in the godforsaken bible belt!

I don't think it makes any difference, but it wasn't just tits since the girls were completely naked. Still, boy scouts were 150 feet away, across a river, and we were partially hidden by trees. So what they saw from that distance is... little skin coloured silhouettes?

Those boy scouts are probably already pregnant! :ye_gods:

Eh, the whole 'right to a trial by a jury of your peers' thing is sorta a big deal for us. She requested it -- she can always waive it, and take a judge's decision, or make a deal with the prosecutor. But it's her right to take it, if she wants it.

And like someone noted upthread -- a lot of the times they'll just drop it rather than go through the hassle.

Doesn't exist.

If this warrant shows up on your record, I can promise that you will be denied at a port of entry on your next trip, or your visa application will be flat-out denied.

There's probably a lurker here that is getting ready at your door to haul your ass to gitmo...

Cause, getting nude in public is pretty close to terrorism for most us Americans.

Pretty sure Italy is a visa waiver country, so it will be at point of entry.

--Dave

That would be fun! Getting thrown into a Homeland security cell.

They might just save the taxpayers some money and throw you right back on the next flight home too with a nice "Don't EVER come back."

If this situation was reversed.  Say, an American was with someone in Italy (http://www.amoretravelguides.com/blog/trevi-fountain-hosts-naked-swimmer.php) who broke the law, despite having not personally broken the law, he fully co-operates with the police and gives his details.

Later through no fault of his own, he finds out after leaving the country that he's missed a summons to court and they have his sex wrong.

I really doubt that the advice given here would be to immediately hire an Italian lawyer to sort it out, I'd bet the US embassy/courthouse route would be explored first as he hadn't actually broken the law.

Only thing being he talked to Italian embassy who apparently weren't too concerned since he wasn't in the US anymore. They're job is to help Italian citizens abroad, he's no longer in any immediate danger or risk of bad stuff because he's back in Italy so I think they've got the same attitude Falconeer was expressing a little while ago of, "If you want to come back to the US later, sort it out then." If he was a UK citizen I'd say to get in touch with the Foreign Office or go to his local Citizen's Advice Bureau and find out who exactly he should be trying to talk to but I don't know enough about the Italian system to give him that direction. Also government run stuff in Italy has the reputation of pointless bureaucracy, without any immediate need to get stuff done I've no idea if they'd even take it that seriously while the Michigan legal advice thingy CmdrSlack will probably get some shit done for him quickly. At least they'll be able to give him a knowledgeable and probably accurate account of what trouble he may or may not be in, how likely he is to be able to deal with it and how best to go about it.

Also most of them wouldn't be recommending talking to an Italian lawyer because if it was an American in Italy who got into trouble they probably wouldn't be able to speak any Italian. :grin:

People seem to be giving him a hard time because he hasn't decided to pay money to a US lawyer yet.  He's said he'll do that if it turns out to be needed, but there's a fair chance that once he makes them aware he has a penis, then he's in clear on the whole naked picture evidence thing.  I'm reasonably confident I could convince people I have a penis without having to hire a legal professional.

Thank you Arthur.

Yes, as I said, I will definitely hire a lawyer when absolutely needed. But since my position has only been aggravated by a "failure to appear" which was totally beyond me, and I think I can prove that pretty easily by mail too (which is what the courthouse itself advised me to do), and I am not in immediate danger, I want to go the courthouse route first.

I am OK with some people giving me a hard time though, I wouldn't have posted on f13 if I wasn't expecting some of that. And it helps put things in perspective anyway. Everything here has been helpful and supportive in many ways so far.

That's besides the point.  The reason everyone is telling him to talk to a lawyer is because, as has been stated, the US Justice system is anything but just.  It's a corrupt fucking system.  It barely, maybe cares about Americans.  You're expecting a system to be rational when it's anything but.  Just look at the list of batshit insane people who won or almost won last election based on irrational fears and hate.  Shit got real when Jackson showed a god damn nipple plate at the superbowl.  Now we got some foreign terrist comin over, corruptin our youths, and exposing flesh in front of the childrunz!  He was probably some Al-Kaidah operative ring-leading the whole thing and would have turned that boy scout into a home-grown terristif he didn't run to the police like he did.  Fuck jail, we need to take that bastard out!

You're right it is besides the point, I just thought it was interesting that if the roles were reversed, then it's possible that some people here wouldn't follow their own advice.  I wasn't trying to say you guys aren't special  :why_so_serious:

Here's the thing though.  If he decides to just take care of it when it becomes an issue, he could forget about this.  Then 20 years down the road when he decides to go to US for something he will arrive and get arrested, and it will be a real pain in the ass to deal with it then.  Lets just hope that the US trip wasn't for something important, like a job!

He was told, early on, to contact his embarassy or the state consulate. I think someone actually gave him the number. They also advised him to get his own lawyer because he was relying on advice (passed through his non-lawyer friends) from his friends lawyer, who -- to be blunt on this -- obligations are to throw HIM under the bus to help his actual clients, if need be.

His friends lawyer is not his lawyer. His friends lawyer has no obligation to help him, and in fact might have an obligation to screw him. That's why he was told to get his own, rather than rely on his friend's.

Uh? How could i forget this?

And Morat, I called the embassy, the police, the courthouse multiple times, and I wrote a letter to them. I AM doing all I can to take care of the thing. The only thing I didn't do yet is pay a lawyer, which, I understand, is the only thing I should do in your opinion. Noted.

Um, because you are human and probably won't be thinking about this at all in a few months.  It's not really that hard to realize that in 15-20 years, when you think of the US this won't immediately pop in your head when you haven't had to deal with it for 20 years.

Also what happens if you want to go to Canada or South America and your plane has a layover in the US? 

You know, I would've assumed that italians would've prided themselves on being banned from a whole country for facilitating in making pictures with tits in them.

Hey, don't get pissy with me. I was responding to Arthur, who seemed under the impression you were just told "Get a lawyer, lolz" and nothing else, and was pointing out you were told to contact your own government first. The reason 'lawyer' kept coming up was because you were partially relying on advice your friends lawyer was supposedly given, which is a Bad Idea for a lot of reasons -- some which may or may not be obvious depending on how your country's legal system operates.

Sorry your embassy isn't helping you though, that's got to blow.

As to forgetting it: Dude, people forget they  have open warrents in other states all the time. Mostly because even if they remember  "Oh, last time I was in Mississippi, I got into that godawful bar fight and ended up in jail overnight. I wonder if not showing up to court was a good idea?" they're mostly likely to think "That was ten years ago, surely no one even remember."

I actually read the thread Morat20.

I enjoy the irony of all the advice espousing that he needs to hire a lawyer because our system is so unjust due to the fact that it is run by lawyers for lawyers.  Not that I necessarily I think it's bad advice, but it is kinda funny.

Also, most people will never have a warrant on them their entire lives.  Getting one isn't something you are going to forget, unless you are used to getting them all the time.  Some of you are being outright silly.

Apologies. I was absolutely not pissed, sorry if it came out like that. (EDIT: Ha! Maybe that's a cultural problem, and the best argument in favor of me needing an American lawyer: I wonder how what I wrote to the court will come out to them...) As I said, and I mean it, I am appreciating every single contribution to this thread.

About forgetting, that's just not possible. In Italy warrants are such a HUGE deal for anyone who isn't a politician or businessperson that I couldn't forget this in a million years, and my criminal record has been crystal clear for 36 years so far. There's nothing like "warrants in other states all the time". That sounds between hilarious and tragic to me.
By the way, about being admitted to the US in the future: the courthouse clerk on the phone said something about the fact that the arrest warrant to my name is only valid in a 22 miles radius from Ann Arbor. Does it make any sense?

Anyway, I am off to Paris today. I hope we won't have a layover in the US  :awesome_for_real: and that boyscouts will leave me alone this time!

We're going to need notarized pictures.

I'm joking.  Really.  No pics, even fake ones, please.

You guys probably have a more graduated system for warrants and the like. We really don't. If they want you in court, they tell you to show up. If you don't, they issue a warrant. Heck, don't pay a traffic ticket, they'll issue one. It's basically the courts way of saying "We need to talk to you" or "you owe us money" or "you have some business here".

I'm sure there's some method to how they enforce them. For traffic tickets, you generally just get a notice in the mail -- and if you're pulled over for anything, the cops will likely haul you down to jail and make you post bail, which I would imagine would get you to show up to court next time. For more serious crimes, they'll come to your house or workplace.

By the "only valid in the 22 mile radius" thing, that's basically saying the warrant has such a low priority that pretty much only the local cops will query that database -- they didn't pass it on to the state or federal law enforcement.

10 years ago, that would have been ignorable as long as you stayed out of the Ann Arbor area. THESE days, with no-fly lists and the FBI and TSA and everyone else hoovering up every database they can find, well -- you're running a real risk that you'll be changing flights on layover in New York, and your name come up with "Active Warrant in Michigan", and find your vacation plans abruptly over.

I used to work for a county deputy prosecutor and she got warrants issued for her arrest several times, accidentally.

Reasons why a lawyer would be useful

1. Many give free consultations. These free consultations can often provide you with a wealth of information that will help you make an informed decision.
2. Communicating directly with the courthouse can bite you in the ass. If you inadvertently make an admission, or if you somehow prove up the guilt of someone who has lawyered up, you can expose yourself to serious hassle.
3. Saying that the system was created "by lawyers, for lawyers" is cute and all, but not the truth. It also doesn't vitiate the benefits of having an attorney at very least tell you if you need an attorney.

Once again, many lawyers will give you advice for free. If I had a) a Michigan law license and b) any experience in Michigan courts, I'd give you advice for free via PM. However, I have none of those things. This is why I provided you a link to a group that provides legal aid services (read as extremely cheap or free) that is located in the greater Ann Arbor area.

But yeah, seeing how things play out is ALWAYS a good idea when dealing with a time-sensitive field like the law. I'm sure that in all of my years of practicing, I've never, ever seen anyone who waited too long get fucked when early action (or even simply talking to a lawyer for an hour) could have solved the situation with minimal hassle, cost and drama. Absolutely never have I seen that happen. The first thing you learn in law school is that you should always advise people to behave like an ostrich. That way, you can bone them for increased fees when you have to pull off a Hail Mary to get their problem solved.

Get a lawyer, you silly asshole.

Thread reopened because somebody got a lawyer.

Good.  Hope it gets sorted quickly now.

Killjoy.

Sorry, all my caring is now used up being so excited for Kate and Wills. My I wonder if their wedding will be as much of a fairytale as his parents'?

My caring has moved to the TSA. I'm rethinking a vacation, since I don't fancy the new security procedures.

Today, I received a Warrant Notice at my house here in Roma. The address is still a bit crooked but it somehow worked. I am charged with Indecent Exposure, and then a bond of 1000$ has been set for Failure to Appear.

So, lawyer. She asked for a 750 U$D (reasonable?) check before she can do anything at all (and basically before letting me ask any more questions). She listened to my story but what she told me is that what she is gonna do is ask court for a new hearing so I can show up. Which is what I was trying to do myself through the mails and the calls to the courthouse.

Lawyer told me that no matter what, I have to show up. Once I finally meet the prosecutor/Judge, she says that two things can happen:

a) Judge decides that my involvement is minimal and basically discharges me. She says it would help if my friends already went to judgement and eventually testified that I was not "exposing" anything. Might be wise to set my date AFTER their cases are closed.
b) Judge decides even if wasn't doing anything, I am still part of the "plot", since I knew what was going on, I knew it was illegal and I didn't stop it, nor left. If that is the case, they could decide on a trial, which would be held two months later, at best.

If scenario b) happens, I am gonna stop caring, conscious of what it will imply, since there is no way in hell I would be able to fly to the US to show up again 2 months later, for money and family reasons. Going the first time and paying for the lawyer is gonna cripple my finances enough, put my job in danger for taking too many off days and leave my teenager messy son alone long enough. I simply can't afford a second trip. If it goes that way... I wasted lots of money and I am still a criminal, banned forever and who knows what else, basically for... not walking away when boobs appeared.

I don't know if the price is reasonable.  I paid about $1500, but my lawyer had to spend a lot of time tracking down my fingerprints with DPS, three times, and the day of court were there for five hours.  Also the cost of lunch at Burger King after it was over, but I offered since we were both starving and she had offered me a ride home.

There's got to be some way you can plea without having to worry about the expenses of returning to the States.  That's messed up.

The retainer you pay up front isn't necessarily the amount you'll owe her after all is said and done.  My understanding is that if she ends up spending less than that amount on you (in terms of her billable time plus court fees plus whatever) you'll get a refund, and obviously if she ends up spending more then you'll get another bill.

Don't worry, the state will make sure you meet that appointment, Mr. Italian flight risk.  I'm sure they even have a nice cot for you to wait on. :awesome_for_real:

Wait, you got arrested for exposing yourself too? :awesome_for_real:

I've been reticent to get into this, but I don't think you should ever be in a position to go to trial in this thing and it seems like the lawyer should be able to get this thing settled with the DA in advance of your appearance.  Just try to get a plea in abeyance to some lowered BS charge like disorderly conduct.  You basically plead guilty, pay a small fine and then your record is expunged after a while if you don't do anything else to get in trouble.  You should send the lawyer the retainer and then discus this possibility as it would mean a one-trip solution without any risk of the judge not just letting you off the hook (in my experience municipal judges basically never do this).

Ab has spoken!

Now get to it you crazy idiot.

Um, lawyers go to court in place of their clients all the time.  I've known people that got a speeding ticket in another state resolved without ever seeing the courthouse OR the lawyer who got them off much lighter than they probably would have had they gone themselves.  Especially when their client is unable to attend due to being like, out of the country or something.  I don't know how it works, (I Am Not A Lawyer) but she should be able to talk to the prosecutor and iron things out, at least up to the point of the trial where you really really would have to show up or forget about coming to the US ever again.  You need someone in their face pointing out over and over that a) they screwed up with the summons and b) they got nothing on you and c) you are going to fight them with every possible legal tactic available, and hold their feet to the fire pouncing on any mistake THEY make so they better either drop it or be prepared to bring their top game because you wont let them steamroll you (like you have so far).  Phone calls and letters and faxes just don't cut it.  Face. To. Face.

That your government isn't going to bat for you is sad.  It happens to us sometimes too, and pisses me off to no end when I hear about it.  If it was me in trouble with the law in Italy you can bet your ass I'd have me a lawyer, and I'd have my Congressman breathing down the Consulate's neck to make sure I had the best support from them possible.  I saw what the Italian legal system did to Amanda Knox after totally botching their evidence collection!   :ye_gods:

But seriously, your lawyer knows your story and is asking for money. It's time to determine what exactly she plans to do for you before you pay her.  Not all lawyers are worthy of their fees, and there are more lawyers looking for work these days than there is paying work to be done so you can keep going down the list till you find someone willing to actually fight for you.

Shit though, a warrant!  I wonder if your picture is gracing the wall of the Ann Arbor main Post Office now?  :grin:

As far as deal with it now or later, well, the sooner the better.  You already waited waaaay too long, but better now than next month/year/whatever!  Getting the lawyer on retainer doesn't mean you have to pay her for all the time between now and whenever it's resolved, just for the time she spends covering your ass between now and whenever it's resolved.  And that will be much less the faster she gets on the case and the less time that warrant has to percolate through the system, and the less water passes under the bridge and other people's story gets established as fact in the courts of law without your version being heard!  That warrant may only be visible within 22 miles of AA now, but what about next year when they integrate their system with the state system (or whatever) which may already be integrated with a national system? 

Although your case may be doomed from the start what with your pervy accomplices being such idiots as to confess to the cops right there in the woods!

From the context, if it is they'll have to arrest the postmaster for distributing pornography.  :awesome_for_real:

Emphasis mine.

Consular officers don't do what you think they do. :oh_i_see:

I wasn't happy with the first lawyer, so I have been sending a few emails out. They all say I have to shell out the 1000$ bond as the first thing. Sweet. Then, the most helpful of them all said I should pay her 1500$ to begin the thing, and went on explaining me how and why should I pay her more in case this or that happens.

If you think about it, this is how it went:

"We are gonna take some photos in the Arb. Wanna come?"
"Yeah sure!"

I seriously screwed myself bad.

Your friends should help. This is more than an inconvenience.  Why can't they shell out a few bucks?  After all, you're expected to deal with all of this from ITALY.

Welcome to paying for an attorney. You're going to want to pay special attention to any retainer you sign. It should give you a detailed version of how your money will be spent. Does the attorney charge a minimum amount of time for handling phone calls and emails? What's the hourly rate? Is any of the retainer considered earned upon payment?

A "give me $1,000 to start" situation can turn into, "You've exhausted the first $1,000, now I'm going to need $200/hr to keep working. Oh, and this call is going to be billed as 15 minutes."

One lawyer wrote me this:


I understand about 10% of it. I feel my willing to fight slowly leaving the body.
The 750$ one doesn't sound that bad all of a sudden.

Hey, whoever changed poor Falconeer's board title got it wrong.  He may very well have been born in the correct country, his problems stem from having visited the wrong country!  :grin:

But seriously dude, looking for the cheapest way out is likely to gain you an empty wallet and still leave you with a world of hurt.  The fixed price version you quoted is odd.  Interesting but odd.  I've never seen a lawyer not charge based on time with a minimum of 15 minutes per lawyerly attention requiring event, even if they only do 1 minute of work for that billed incident.  The fixed rate for various levels of involvement is intriguing.  And at least she seems to have a grasp of your situation and has thought about it enough to come up with an actual reasonable sounding plan with alternate fall-backs for solving it.  I'm actually kind of impressed.

Oh, and IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer).

darn it, now I've got the guitar melody from Bon Jovi's "Wanted, Dead or Alive" song running in my head.

Nah.  Italy is the wrong country for anyone. ;D

Even the Catholic Church knows that.

Flat fee billing for minor criminal stuff is pretty standard, no idea if those amounts are reasonable as it is highly location specific. Have you tried talking to the public defender's office for that jurisdiction? You may qualify.

I also dig the flat fee. The billable hour is awful for the profession, and I'm glad to see more attorneys go flat fee. Our firm does it for the vast majority of our cases. It makes my life suck so much less because I'm not concerned about billing a set number of hours each week.

As far as that deal goes, it's not too bad. I have friends who do flat fee criminal defense work here in Chicago, and from what I've seen them charge, you're not getting being over-charged. Granted, Chicago is a bit different than Ann Arbor. Odds are that you'll end up $1500 to $2000 out of pocket for that person -- if it went to a full trial I'd be surprised.

I tried the Public Defender office but they didn't want to tell me on the phone the requirements to qualify. They said I have to not be able to afford a lawyer, and when I asked, candidly, "I don't get it, how are you gonna find out what my finances in Italy are like? Cause I have no idea if I qualify or not", they said that are gonna ask me question and swear that I am telling the truth.
I'd love the cheap, good ole public defendant, but she said she can only take up my case once I show up in court, not before. So, it might backfire as she wouldn't know anything about my case beforehand.

Mmmm just got this from another lawyer:


So it IS possible!
Dammit, everyone of them says a different thing! And you wonder why I didn't want a lawyer? They are just confusing me even more, and seems very easy that I could be screwed (if nothing else financially) for choosing the wrong one! They all seem to have different strategies too, and some don't seem so applicable to me, but they all make it sound like it's the only one. I feel like I am blindly betting at horse races and first prize is my innocence!

That last one sounds good, but IMNALMAO

Yes, I knew it should be.

Keep in mind that laws can be complicated (as you're learning) and there are multiple ways to approach a case.  The trick is finding one that has a good grasp of the system, can work with whatever obstacles are thrown in their path, and can resolve this with the least hassle for you.  So it is kinda like a bet, unfortunately.

This guy at least seems to have a grasp on a reasonable solution.

It may also be this person's default approach to this stuff. Even amongst the people in my office, we have serious disagreements about how to approach things. I like to negotiate to settlement, other guys feel the need to do a bunch of dickwaving in court.

It's not so much that the process is Kafkaesque as it is that like Lant said, there's a lot of ways to do the same thing. As long as this guy is charging you a fair price for the type of work he's proposing, you're good. Sounds to me like his approach shouldn't cost more than $1500.

Interestingly enough, Cmdr, I explained this firm my financial situation and they told me their usual fee for something like that is 5000$, but they were ready to cut it to 2500$ considering my position. When I further explained them what's my life like, they cut it to... 1500$. It's kind of awesome, I guess. Still kind of expensive to look at boobs I was already vastly experienced with, but heh.

So either I am under-valuing my services if I was doing criminal defense....or that guy knows that he can charge more than actual value since one's freedom may be on the line.

My brother, in an lengthy issue with his lease in his last apartment, ended up needing a lawyer. One of his friends was one, but not in a relevent field. He got bounced around "I don't practice that sort of law, but I have a friend who might know someone". About four referrels later he ended up meeting with a partner in a major firm, who spent an hour of her time walking him through what he needed to do to handle the issue (and how to handle the apartment complex he was wanting to move to, who were leery given his legal issues), and charged him approx 5% of her normal fee.

Surpisingly, all his legal issues vanished the minute an actual lawyer contacted his scuzzy ex-landlord. It also helped that he wasn't really interested in trying to get any of his money back (the lawyer told him it was doable, he had a solid case, but that it'd take forever and wouldn't be worth the cost or the time) he just wanted free of his lease, and to keep the guy from badmouthing him when he was trying to get a new place.

It's amazing how much bullshit magically disappears when you mention your wife is an attorney.  And if that doesn't do it, a letter from one of her friends (on letterhead) can do wonders.

--Dave

I know someone who was wanted in Spain for tapping into a telephone trunk line that ran under his house, ended up in Canada after he decided Spain was a bad place for him, was pulled over a few hours from where I live for driving a motorcycle without a seat (also "borrowed" and uninsured, but at that point the cop just advised them to fuck off and return the bike), and is now in custody of his Canadian born child because his ex-wife was deemed to be a bad parent.

Justice is fucking strange.

 :headscratch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_custody

I know what custody is. But "in custody" usually refers to being the one who is overseen, not the overseer.

Weird. I want to go live in Canada (since I decided Italy is a bad place for me), too. And I am "in custody" of my son too, cause his mother was deemed to be a bad parent.

Indeed, having a mother who is a particularly capable lawyer with an intimidating employment history does wonders for solving certain kinds of problems with people being assholes.

I got arrested once at the Indy 500 for possession of marijuana. It was a bullshit charge, as I never had any on me and hit a joint once with some undercover cops. They arrested me anyway, saying "I possessed it when I hit the joint".

I contacted a lawyer, arranged for him to stand for me in court and take care of it for $750. Everything was dropped. They just wanted to get money into the system, and that's the first step into getting your situation handled.

I used to go annually to the race, it was a great time, but other friends of mine got harassed on some bogus alcohol related charges and we decided we were done pumping money into their shitty state. Bad move by them, in the long run.

Did this thread ever get to the point where he posted naked pics of the girls? I tl:dr'ed :)

Unfortunately, no. Maybe he's trying to avoid presenting evidence that DHS can use against his terrorist ass.  :why_so_serious:

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I put it to you, that this ass before you in the dock was on that grassy knoll on the day in question and could, conceivably, have shocked those boy scouts."

Dealing with lawyers and mostly paying them at the moment. I'll update as soon as there is anything new. What is interesting is the January 13th trial by jury where the models, who pleaded not guilty, will try to convince the jury they were actually doing art. So, I guess, showing them the pictures for real.

You should post them here since they are a matter of public record, then.

You wouldn't like them.

What are they fat? Fat and hairy with moles? If they are naked and weigh less than a buck-eighty, I can assure you there won't be complaints.

And I daresay, if they are not good enough looking to turn on a bunch of internet nerds like us, then passing it off as art is going to be....problematic?  You practically owe it to them to get our opinion.

One is fat, the other one is not. They are both "alternative" models without bordering with Suicide Girls material. I love them both to insane levels, and I am not the only one apparently. But the "You wouldn't like them" was meant as a /tease you drooling bastards.

Telling me they're 'alternative' is the real tease. :-P

Wow, people are crazy... most of those spots are in cold places, what the hell?!

This just in from my lawyer.



The end...?

Not the end until the pictures are posted!

Ha!

I'm actually quite tempted. What a horrible person I am.

Glad to hear that it's being dismissed!

 :awesome_for_real:

My lawyer is funny.

Hooray, the Blood Bowl League will continue!

Not sure. Now that I am free to fly, I might go back to Michigan for another attempt at being stupid.

I highly suggest you send the cheese.  You will have a lawyer friend for life if you become a regular supplier.

Funny thing is, sending the cheese from Italy would be all sorts of trouble, and it would be very expensive shipping. On the other hand, he lives in Ann Arbor, home of Zingerman's deli, one of those places in the US where you can get real Parmigiano Reggiano every day. So I guess I'll just call my friend there and have it delivered personally from the deli. It's twice as expensive there, but still better than shipping it. Ha.

Surely you can get it everywhere in the US?

I don't know, can you? I'm confused..

You can get it at Amazon: $20 for a pound (http://www.amazon.com/Parmigiano-Reggiano-Cheese-Pastacheese-1-lb/dp/B000FE5VNM), or a quarter-wheel (20 pounds) for $250 (http://www.amazon.com/Parmigiano-Reggiano-Quarter-Wheel-20/dp/B002EDLBL8/ref=pd_sbs_gro_1).

Not sure how your local retailer option compares to those, but most storefront delis mark up their specialty imported goods to at least double their cost.

--Dave

I buy it at Costco.

As an inveterate cheese snob, I'd be careful. The lawyer may be able to tell the difference between Amazon and Costco and something approaching real. You can get Manchego from Trader Joe's here, but the stuff is really bottom shelf stuff compared to what's readily available in Spain.

Plus she's a lawyer....

The Costco stuff is good. It's from Zanetti which is a major producer in Italy and has the Consorzio del Formaggio Parmigiano Reggiano production seal.

What is it with lawyers and cheese ??

It's our affinity with rats.

Best consult a lawyer about it.  :grin:

Some days I love you so much.

 :heart:

When you next fly back to the US, I'd bring any documentation declaring your case was dismissed.  USCIS (surprisingly) isn't always 100% current.  Bring anything to prove "I am not a criminal."  CBP guards have a strange amount of authority to fuck with a person.   Other than that, congrats.

Since Italy is on the Visa Waiver Program, you won't be needing a visa for simple tourist travel. However, you may wish to pop over to the Embassy if you and the staff there are not too busy, and inquire about having a note put in your file explaining your exoneration; there's a chance you'd have to make an appointment, I have no idea, might want to call. While I don't think they'd actually confirm/deny this, there's always a chance that the original warrant generated a derogatory hit on your file, so I don't think it would hurt to try to work it out before you get on a plane, lest you risk getting turned around at the port of entry...and trust me, you don't want that going into your records.

Thanks so much for the good advices. I'll try not to fuck it up this time. In the meantime, you all know this gem we have to sign before getting into USA, right?


(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3584773/I%20am%20not%20so%20sure%20anymore.jpg)

Of particular note, the last two lines of point B)


Or point C)


I have been as literal as I could, punctuation included.

You would not believe the sort of information that some people will give to you freely. Some cultures really hate to lie.

Also, we really hate Nazis. I've heard stories of little old ladies in Germany getting refused visas because they were guards at concentration camps 50+ years prior.

Prime example of this is the routine traffic stop "Sir, do you know why I pulled you over?".

Perfect answer to that would probably be "I'm sure you'll tell me."

Or as the ex-policeman in that video on never speaking to the police said, "Do you know what speed you were going?" Followed by admitting to speeding a little because you were actually speeding a lot, which is still admitting to breaking the law. People don't want to just outright lie to authority for fear of getting caught.

That's probably the sort of answer that gets you tasered.

"No sir."  Act ignorant.  Let them tell you what they think you were doing.

For what? Obviously the tone should be slightly less disrespectful (lantyssa probably has the right of it here), but I see no reason to start guessing what law it is he's thinking of, whether or not I drove slightly faster than the speedlimit at some point, or if I just have a broken taillight.

It's their job to tell me what they think I did wrong, not my job to incriminate myself, and furthermore if you were to admit to speeding "a little" (say 55 in a 50 zone when you were really doing 60-65), you've basically already lied to a police officer. In other words, you're screwing yourself over even more.

Your phrasing would make almost any cop immediately assume you'll give them attitude.  It may not get you a taser in the face, but it will get you a ticket when they might have given you a warning.

I'd love to see the fallout of a taser to the face for "I'm sure you'll tell me", at least in Norway. :grin:

I agree though, it's not the perfect tone. I thought after I posted it that it might be too attitudal, but the base idea of "let them tell you what you did wrong, instead of guessing" is still sound.

I follow every sentence by sir, look sheepish and confused, and admit to nothing.

I've never gotten a speeding ticket the 4 times I've been pulled over.

Clearly the perfect response would be, "So you could get my phone number?"

Ah, so the trick is to reply to "Do you know why I pulled you over tonight?" with "Because you solved all of the murders, rapes and robberies in such an effective manner that there are no real crimes being committed for you to investigate instead of hiding behind a bush with your radar gun, sir?"

It's so simple, I'll have to give it a shot.

That would be promptly followed by "Please step out of the car."

I like this idea and wish to see it executed. And filmed.

Wow. Our version of that going back and forth asks questions about carrying more than $10,000, fresh fruit, or if you came in contact with cows I think.

I think I have achieved a deeper understanding towards some of your more recent posts.

Think that's actually the customs declaration.

And a full body cavity search.

We're talking about police, not airport security.  :awesome_for_real:

I might try, "Because my vehicle matches the description of someone who committed a crime recently sir?"

"You want me to verify my citizenship?"

--Dave

私は、問題の役員と思われるもの、英語理解できないのですか？

Had that happen to me. 1:00 AM heading home from a friends, four cop cars suround us and jump out with guns drawn. They were looking for a red camaro with one headlight leaving a B&E three blocks away. I was driving a red firechicken with one headlight. The cop was right pissed when he realized he had the wrong car and had pulled over a car load of 19 year old nerds.

Did he ticket you for the headlight?  :awesome_for_real:

Next trip scheduled: Florida, Orlando and Jacksonville, in about a month. Any advice on how to break the law and put myself in trouble down there?

Naked male prostitute while smoking weed.

As a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer I'm sure you'll have no problem getting into trouble in Florida..

:heart:

Yeah, your a 'Eurofag' going to 'the south'.  Your going to have to try pretty hard not to end up in the electric chair.

Tips for a Brown Person in the South as written by a Southerner

1.  Remember if you go south of Gainesville, you are no longer in the South. 
2.  When speaking to locals, work in "Praise Jesus" in every sentence.
3.  If you ask for tea, be prepared for it to be gloriously laden with sugar.
4.  If someone waves at you, wave back.  Unless they are waving a gun.
5.  If someone tells you 'You ain't from around here are ya boy?" you are about to die.
6.  Try not to be so 'uppity'.  If you are, see 5, above.

ALL OF THESE STATES ARE YOURS EXCEPT ALABAMA.  ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE

Jacksonville is more Southern than Orlando, but not by much, IMO.

Orlando is resort land. They are used to furrnrs.

Yeah, I was just making a joke.  I know Florida isn't quite the south in the usual sense that we see it, due to the tourist draw and more multiracial society.  I still like to make fun of it though!

Aim for the Panhandle. That's still the South.  :awesome_for_real:

Don't worry, the rest of the South laughs at Florida for even trying to claim they are Southern.

I am goddamn serious. Does having sex in a car counts as sex in public in Florida? Can I get in trouble for that? Does it depend on where the car is parked? And what if the car is moving, like, on route from the airport to downtown Orlando?

Is it beyond reason to wait till you're checked into the motel? If so, well, the I suggest driving up to a retirement community, putting on a turban, nothing else, and run around screaming 'Free Palestine!'. That ought to do the trick.

Yes to all of those.

Until a few years ago, depending on the position and person (assuming consenting adults), you could get nailed in the 'privacy' of your own home.  No sex except in a private residence, with the blinds/shades/curtains drawn.  I'm serious.

Added with new reply: Hotel room is okay, too, but use the Do Not Disturb sign.

Don't taze me, Bro!



(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/facepalm134.jpg)


I like you and all, Falc. But grow some goddamned common sense. Or you'll be having several years of polyamorous pansexual genderqueer encounters in the showers.

Listen to Lantyssa.

But but..


even in a moving car? What the fuck!

Make sure you have one of your friends around to document the arrest, trial, incarceration, and deportation. Not sure if Canada will let you take citizenship either, once you're a Registered Sex Offender, since you seem quite hellbent on getting that particular degree from Con College.
 :popcorn:

Cars are not private, they are public.  Anything in plain sight is pretty much public and with all the glass that makes a car public. Yes, even with heavily tinted windows.

Lant wasn't kidding about the shade-drawn thing, either.   No pressing the partner up against the glass of the front door and giving 'em a good go then claiming the folks on the street were peeping.

I am speechless at the USA.

Yeah, so are most of the non-psycho, non-fundies of us.  Just remember that a good portion of us are repressed, intolerant assholes before you do anything you think -should- be ok. 

I look at it as a quality of life thing.  It would detrimentally affect my quality of life if the two morbidly obese people behind me took to having sex-romps in their pool.   I'm ok with them not being allowed to.

On the other hand, there is a very successful porn site based in Florida focused on showing people having sex while in a moving vehicle.

You couldn't wait until you got to Disney World?

Don't listen to them Falc, penises want to be free. Also Fuck Tha Police was a love song.

Just make sure you finish the BB league before they send you to PMITA prison.

Isn't the Florida porn industry based around Miami?

Miami is like another planet compared to northern Florida.

The law should be the same even if enforcement is less stringent. I suspect porn producers are simply prepared to deal with any public indecency charges, on the off chance of getting caught in the act, as one of the costs of doing business.

Pretty much, yes.  Not to mention they're US citizens already and not apt to run into international problems should they get arrested.

Well, remember you are a foreigner. Americans can pull that kind of shit off all the time, because we don't have to worry about deportation or dealing with courts in a foreign country and whatnot. Everyone else likes to mock your antics, but it's nothing I wasn't up to back in the 80s and 90s.

Another thing is that locals should know better places to pull off such shenanigans.

I don't think people are mocking his antics so much, it's more the naiveté of expecting the same laissez-faire attitude towards sex and nudity that's common in continental Europe to hold in the US. Remember that Falc comes from a country where the Prime Minister's approval rating climbed after he admitted to multiple affairs.

Don't be a jackass. I mean really. It frankly is not the height of puritanism to not want to see or have your kids see people fucking in a car on the goddammed highway. Try to have at least a modicum of class.

Not to mention the fact that cars are not the most comfortable places imaginable to make whoopee.

A tilt steering wheel helps - more headroom.   :awesome_for_real:

No doubt.  I was more than happy when I moved on to college because it meant I didn't have to have sex in a car ever again.  Even in the back seat of a late 70s Buick it's a damned nuisance, never mind attempting things in a Dodge Omni.


This reminds me of the crash scene in Parenthood w/ Steve Martin.

While I ABSOLUTELY do not think kids should be exposed to sexuality, I disagree with your approach to the issue. So, again, while I ABSOLUTELY do not think kids should be exposed to sexuality (better to say it twice), I think it should not be stretched too far. Sex happens, and when it's not that close to your children, so it's not threatening their safe space/environment in any way, but eventually in the distance, in a different place, in a blurry moving car, somewhere there behind the bushes, or something like that, and the kids are safe with you, the parents, who can answer to questions or give explanations, it should be acceptable. Or "tolerated" as they say, and as it is in many other countries, which are not necessarily depraved for that, and don't bring you to a trial cause you were posing naked in the woods. Again we are NOT talking about a couple having sex in the playground and playing dumb, we are talking about someone having sex in the back (not on the rooftop!) of their car without having to feel like they are being outlaws or that future generations are in danger of being traumatized. Let's not even get into the topic of your own house, curtains, and shit.

AVERT THINE EYES! That's how sex is still perceived in many places. We are not talking about porn, just plain old honest sex. Or even simple nudity. The problem with sex and sexuality is that too many cultures treat it as something dirty and bad (why? History lesson, that way). While I once again want to state that I am not saying kids should be, or it is ever ok for them to be exposed to sex, I think there's no need to pretend it doesn't exist or assume that accidentally witnessing anything sexual is always and undeniably going to traumatize children. Sex is only as traumatizing as our cultures made it to be. And here lies the hypocrisy of puritanism (mind, this is NOT about the US. Many countries are more forgiving, many countries are less. Despite my previous comment I am not bashing the US, they were the subject for contingent reasons, ie: I am going there, not political ones): blood, abuse, violence and kids exposure to that is generally more accepted than sex. Why exactly?

So, there goes the class I never claimed to have, cause it's a concept I don't necessarily believe into considering how it easily changes from culture to culture, and decade to decade.

Its your intent to be seen, whether you admit to it or not. Else why have sex in the back of a car while in motion?
Do it in the car while parked and enclosed in a garage.
Do it in the car while parked way back in the woods where you are unlikely to be caught.

The only point in having sex in a moving car in broad day light or on a heavily used road would be for the titillation of being seen/caught.

And Im not saying you shouldnt do it, hell Ive done it. I like nothing more than getting a BJ while on a long boring drive. But Im honest about why Im doing it and prepared to suffer the consequences of my actions. Are you?

I bet yours was never turned into a composition by Frank Zappa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPPDrXHjJx8

Well, Sand, no.

When sex is treated naturally, you don't always feel like enjoying only in a specific designated place. That actually takes lots of the spontaneity away. I know what you are talking about, and we both knows that such titillation exists for some people. But the whole point here is really not exhibitionism. It's about enjoying something natural without having to feel it's wrong, while at the same time trying to find the reasonable line that respects children and different sensitivities or sets of morals. I just don't think that saying "it always has to be inside four walls with perfectly shut windows otherwise it's a crime" is that reasonable respectful line. That is all.

The moving car is because I know it might happen when I will meet this person and I know we'll feel like doing it. Can I wait? Sure I can. And I will. But I can still voice my disapproval for common morals and laws (not just the US ones) when they are so restrictive towards something natural that mostly religions transformed into "ugly, dirty and devious".

So if I come to Italy I will find people fucking in cars as a common thing?  I don't think so.

I suspect the "culture" to which he is comparing things exhibits a space comprised mostly of the area between his own ears.

Or whatever's growing on his nether regions.

I backed off from that in later posts. And I hate Italy and want to leave this shitland anyway. But no, I really don't think you are ever going to have a trial for having sex in the back of your car in Italy, unless you really are in a kids playground. That doesn't change Italy is a horrible place and should burn in flames.

Just make sure neither of you are the driver, because that would definitely tack another charge onto it.

Maybe. You might also get to see old guys touch themselves in broad daylight, in the open, in a park across from a school (ok it was a University campus).

Falc, do yourself and everyone else a favor and show a bit of restraint. Please.

It's not Falc's antics I mind.  I've seen all kinds of things given my friends in high school and college.  I just want him to remember we're a sexually repressed, puritanical society and would rather not hear about him having another run in with our laws due to cultural differences.

A lot of people do stupid shit, but they both don't realize how much trouble they can get in until it happens, and aren't foreign at a time when The System hates foreigners.  Keep it private and you're good.

So philosophy discussions aside, stay safe, Falc.  Thank you.

Thank you all about being informative. I can be a showoff at times, but I really care about the info. And I don't care about the personal/cultural attacks. So it's all good. I'll be safe this time. Last time I've been incredibly naive, but that has been thanks to 3 locals and their bogus suggestions, one of them being a 40 years old professional photographer. This time guys, I'll trust YOU!  :why_so_serious:

I'm feeling like I missed out with my weeks in Rome now...

I never once saw anyone having sex.

You have to get away from touristy places, and not go drinking at Campo di Fiori. :uhrr:

Why would you spend weeks in Rome? Ugh.

Roma  :awesome_for_real:

I was asking myself the same question.
After seeing what appeared to be asphalt poured on the Coliseum and that Marcus Aurelius' tomb was being used as a trash receptacle I couldnt flee fast enough.

That's the base stone on the Coliseum, btw...the marble was stripped centuries ago.

I used to travel extensively for work to exciting and fun places like Joplin Missouri, Compton California (I might have expensed meals at Disneyland), Surrey England, Ohio and Rome.

I like being a stay at home dad a lot more.

Look at this picture. What is that stuff which appears to be some sort of modern poured asphalt/concrete being used as a sort of repair?
Right in the center of the picture covering the slope.

Im no archaeologist so maybe Im wrong but it looked pretty modern to me.

Not a great picture so I have no idea.

Think of the US public sex laws as a test.  If you screwed surreptitiously enough to not get caught, you passed!  If you got caught, then you were too public, and probably oughtn't've been doing that there.

Homes aren't an inherent protection from public sex because if they were, you know some assholes would be doing a reverse cowgirl on the screen porch in plain view of the neighborhood and try to claim that it was in the privacy of their home.

Yes, because in countries with less strickt laws this happens all the time.

It's Concrete, which the Romans perfected and we didn't rediscover until ~1756.

https://fp.auburn.edu/heinmic/ConcreteHistory/Pages/timeline.htm    (Note 82AD)

Roma has many problems, and if you look at it from a certain perspective it can be an ugly city. I definitely can't see reasons to stay there too long other than visiting all the landmarks and spending a few nights out assuming you know where to go and what you look for.


But this...


makes you sound like a clueless dumbass. And I'm no archaeologist either, but what and where exactly is Marcus Aurelius' tomb?

Not that there is something wrong with the reverse cowgirl.

But yes, the idea that people would be screwing in plain sight because they would be allowed to at home is somewhat ridiculous. Aren't there indecent exposure laws or something for that? You can't have lawful missionary sex with your wife on the front porch either!

Indecent exposure laws also cover public nudity.. the event that started this thread in the first place.  :oh_i_see:

Sure you can - you just can't get caught doing it. Trust me, it's amazing the places you can get away with having sex. But you've got to be smart, and as we've said - the same rules don't apply to foreigners, since The Man hates you and your unwashed masses yearning to steal our freedoms.

Now I've got this picture in my head of batman trying to dispose of the bomb in that hilarious old movie, can't fuck here - NUNS!

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/704172/BatmanBomb.gif)

My apologies, not Aurelius but Augustus. And its in Rome located on the Piazza Augusto Imperatore.
Here in this picture one can see the great height between the outer and inner walls of the tomb. Passers by were throwing their drink cups, and fast food wrappers into the tomb and generally using the thing as one large land fill for trash.
I was saddened to see a historical landmark treated in such a way.

On average, a very high average, Italians and especially Romans are disgusting people. That's a sad truth. But it doesn't completely overshadow the monuments and the ruins, not for a few days. Or shouldn't.

EDIT: One thing that should not be forgotten though, is that tourists, nationals and internationals, play a big part in degrading the historical sites. Most recent story that comes to mind is from a few months ago, when I visited S. Callisto's Catacombs (don't miss it when you are around! A real dungeon!) and the guide showed everyone a few points where the 1500 years old wall had been severely nibbled away by tourists smuggling off tiny pieces. So, while I hate Romans, and they have huge responsibility for letting things go, there's more than just them using ruins as trashbins. The most historical parts of the city are walked through, for the most part, by tourists holding the said drink cups and fast food wrappers. Italians are not so used to eat or drink while walking. No kidding.

I went down to a public cave I had toured when I was a kid and was upset by how many of the stalactites had been broken off by tourists. You've really got to be a special kind of selfish asshole to deface a public attraction like that.

Yes - I decided every 5th one of them didn't shower regularly.

Sounds to me like you've specifically spoiled his specific plans with that example.  :awesome_for_real:

Re: Ruins

1. Concrete is a Roman invention, it's both entirely possible that you're seeing original concrete, and in the case that it is new it is period accurate to use it as a restoration material.  People hurf blurf about the impossibility of shit like the dark age Celtic buildings made out of fused earth and stone, and other more well known constructions, but what is generally not realized is how horribly fucked over the western world was by the Dark Ages.

2. As was said, shit piling up in the tourist attractions is generally the fault of tourists, not the locals.

This really needs to be remembered, not momentary shit like 9/11. Because creationists, Kansas schools, tea partiers and Glenn Beck lead directly to said Ages of Not Being Very Bright.

Hey. Don't you DARE to insult my beloved Middle Ages like that.

(Actually the "Dark Ages" were not that "dark". At all.)

Slightly on topic  :awesome_for_real: :

http://laist.com/2011/02/15/sd_weatherman_pleads_guilty_to_plea.php

Don't forget to mention they used volcanic ash in their concrete which makes it loss porous and therefor longer lasting as rain doesn't damage it near as much.

That's still done, however the modern solution is to use ash collected from the scrubbers of coal plants.

Theres some new stuff where they use little foam pellets instead of fly ash to achieve ~80% lighter weight while still retaining a bunch of strength.  Beat that you dirty fucking romans.

ETA: Dirty fucking romans isn't meant to be disparaging, it is a descriptor gathered from information gleaned in this thread.  If 1 of 5 romans actually shower, and they all apparently enjoy fucking in cars, in parks, fondling themselves on playgrounds, etc.  'Fucking' is something that is an important part of their culture that us puritanical American's can't understand.

So, Dirty, fucking, Romans.

 :rimshot: