APB: Finally, I Can Be A PUNK!

[Lantyssa]

So, being conservative, about 25k players if the 20% of players playing at any given time if the number holds true.  For a game that right now has no cost beyond the box.  Yes, you've convinced me.  There is a huge market for monthly-sub MMOs.

If it's enough for Realtime and Global Agenda to survive, great for them.  They are still going after a small market considering FPSers are used to free servers.  Your love of shooters doesn't change that, no matter how much you would like it to be different.

[Mrbloodworth]

So, being conservative, about 25k players if the 20% of players playing at any given time if the number holds true.  For a game that right now has no cost beyond the box.  Yes, you've convinced me.  There is a huge market for monthly-sub MMOs.

If it's enough for Realtime and Global Agenda to survive, great for them.  They are still going after a small market considering FPSers are used to free servers.  Your love of shooters doesn't change that, no matter how much you would like it to be different.

Well, yeah, I don't even think RTW is shooting for Wow numbers. However, times are changing, so I am interested on how both titles shake out. This is probably the first real push for MMOFPS games, considering all the titles coming out.

I have never once argued that shooter games with subs/hybrids are going to be a giant market, so I don't know where you are getting this from.  But myself, and others are quite interested in how all this works out, it may be that both titles go to a DLC like system (Like M.A.G), don't know yet, I would not be surprised. But, there still isn't a monthly sub only game (other than planetside) they are all hybrids...so... uh, yeah Not sure where you are going with all the snark there.

Server for those titles are not free, its just a perception that they are, we went over this, with the games coming out that offer more than "free games", quite technically the fees are warranted, perception or not (the overhead demands more income to support). The game is to now find the threshold where users fell its worth it. Something GA is directly trying to figure out, and APB is going to attempt with this set up.

EDIT: I always forget WWIIO, has a sub fee if i'm not mistaken.

[Kageru]

I believe their open beta "key's to the city" is limited to 5 hours maximum game time. That sounds to me like a game with something to hide. But hey, feel free to call me bitter because my ping would probably make playing it pointless.

I find the idea of global agenda holding anywhere close to 25K active players extremely unlikely. It's early morning in the US now but you can have a look at the steam stats for global agenda and get a reasonably active metric for players since it is primarily (only?) sold through steam. Prior to the patch it was peaking at less than a thousand.

And while servers for these games are not free to the provider there are a number of ISP's for whom the cost of hosting game servers is cheap and good advertising. And it is these they must compete with.

[Hoax]

Thing is, he did say right in that article that the game is not designed for people to sit there and play 12 hour sessions, its oriented to be played like other titles not in the MMO sphere.

Other titles are free.

I don't buy that they waited until the end to figure out a business model, this reeks of business model in search of a game. They knew they were going to make GTA Online and they knew there was going to be a recurring revenue model. Period. Maybe they didn't nail down the exact details of how much it would cost etc but from day one the POINT of the game was recurring revenue.

Pretty much exactly the same deal as Hellgate with exactly the same question: why exactly am I paying for this?

This post, like so many from Marg is a fucking gem and really says anything I would need to say about this title. I will OBeta the hell out of it though because I have always wanted it to not go the Funcom MMO route and promise me the moon while failing to deliver core elements of what might have made the game fun. I swear that no longer works on me.

[Sheepherder]

Server for those titles are not free, its just a perception that they are, we went over this, with the games coming out that offer more than "free games", quite technically the fees are warranted, perception or not (the overhead demands more income to support). The game is to now find the threshold where users fell its worth it. Something GA is directly trying to figure out, and APB is going to attempt with this set up.

No, the fees aren't warranted unless you want to argue the point that Battlefield, Unreal Tournament, and Quake just didn't happen.

The servers aren't free, but the point is irrelevant to charging a monthly subscription, they've never been free.  People still pay for the servers though, because they are the people who want to rule over the sandbox.  It would be easy enough to tap this segment of players for your recurring fees (allow guilds to buy instance servers to build a gang hideout in), why they opt to charge the entire player base and limit themselves that way is anyone's guess.

[Mrbloodworth]

No, the fees aren't warranted unless you want to argue the point that Battlefield, Unreal Tournament, and Quake just didn't happen.

As for what are you paying for, take a look at current Unreal hosting prices and player counts. Now, imagine the server you will need to rent to host 100 players, and all the streamed customization data (buffer made images, music, logos, appearance) and persistence, and AI logic ETC... That's all for one instance.

I don't think you could afford it.

Of course that's irrelevant to the end users, as everyone has noted.

[caladein]

That's not the point.  As a casual (in terms of competitiveness and time-investment) Battlefield Bad Company 2 player, server costs are an externality.  When I was a competitive BF1942 player, I paid money into my clan's server fund that other people free-loaded off of.

In APB it's the reverse.  The hardcore (more than ~30 hours/month) pay less per use because they'll just pay a monthly fee while everyone else is stuck paying a-la-carte rates.

It's a fundamentally different system from games that are very very similar, for no good reason to the user.

[Mrbloodworth]

That's not the point.  As a casual (in terms of competitiveness and time-investment) Battlefield Bad Company 2 player, server costs are an externality.  When I was a competitive BF1942 player, I paid money into my clan's server fund that other people free-loaded off of.

In APB it's the reverse.  The hardcore (more than ~30 hours/month) pay less per use because they'll just pay a monthly fee while everyone else is stuck paying a-la-carte rates.

It's a fundamentally different system from games that are very very similar, for no good reason to the user.

Yes, but unlike the monthly, you only use the hours when you play in an action zone. This month, next month, two months from now, does not matter when you use them. The monthly runs out at the end of the month, always. AFAIK.

[Sheepherder]

Of course that's irrelevant to the end users, as everyone has noted.

Which is why we've noted it.  Because end-users are being asked to pay for a service they don't see the benefits of, because they aren't being asked which Hostage Rescue scenario they want to play or whether they want to disallow flashbangs, or whether they want to throw up some clan advertising.  Clans can pay for this shit recurring, they do it right now, as we speak.

This game really should have a system to rent out instance space to paying clans so they can build housing with almost complete creative control within their instance space - that's something they would consider paying a premium for.  Particularly if they could then fight other clans in it, at their own discretion rather than that of the attacker, and if they could set arbitrary rules within this space.  It would probably need a decent clan fees / payment GUI, but that can be done.

Yes, but unlike the monthly, you only use the hours when you play in an action zone. This month, next month, two months from now, does not matter when you use them. The monthly runs out at the end of the month, always. AFAIK.

And they still don't get to say "This is my crash pad, shotguns only."  Which is why clans pay for server hosting in the first place.

[Mrbloodworth]

This isn't a lobby based shooter where the servers rest when the match is over, its a persistent world where things happen, even if your not there.

Other activities involving missions within the game allowing the player to earn extra money, which then can be used to upgrade weapons, vehicles, and their character appearances, all that influence the game itself.  For example, several Criminal players may rob a convenience store within the game; the game will then seek out one or more Law Enforcement players of equivalent skills and other criteria, and will issue an all-points bulletin for them to stop the robbery.

Since this is an MMO, you'll find your character in the midst of the massive San Paro ubran center. Two districts exist to explore, each roughly 40 city blocks. There's the Financial District, home to skyscrapers and back alleys which is complemented by the Waterfront District where you'll find wider roads and ferries. Up to 100 players can toy around in each district at once with thousands more NPCs going about their business.

All of these players are created using the in-game tools.
"The open world stuff allows us to be much more player driven," explained Moreland. "The idea is that the Criminals prey on the city -- they prey on the civilians, they prey on the cars, they prey on the businesses -- and then the Enforcers are predators to them." This is all done through an innovative asymmetric matchmaking system. While you're going about your criminal or heroic business, the game is watching and preparing to throw you into a match against the opposition.

"We're constantly monitoring what you're doing," says Moreland, "and determining what's a good match and when that should occur based on your actions." When not in a match, players can create their own open-world fun or take on missions given out by the NPC organizations. If you're working for the Criminals, you'll report to Zombie and the G-Kings. The Enforcers will accept missions from LaRoche, the head of the Pretorians. These can range from anything to stealing a car on the bad side to escorting a VIP across the city for the heroes. By completing these missions and other player matches, you'll earn money to buy better weapons, customization options, and unlock the set of more than 30 cars.

The kicker is that, according to Moreland, "Everything exists within the matchmaking." If you steal a car without being seen, the matchmaking might not kick in for a while. Kill an innocent civilian in broad daylight and you might raise a few alarms. "What we've learned is that the anticipation of being matched is as cool as actually being matched."

[Sheepherder]

Which isn't a refutation.  You can still amortize the cost of the action zones through the server fees of private instances, RMT, or expansion sales.

[Mrbloodworth]

Which isn't a refutation.  You can still amortize the cost of the action zones through the server fees of private instances, RMT, or expansion sales.

I'm not disagreeing, except for the server rental part. It would be extremely odd to have servers with arbitrary rule sets in a persistent world game. Renting "hideouts" sure, rule sets, no.

In fact, I half expect things like hideouts and such will be part of the first expansion, but it will most likely cost RTW points to maintain.

[Sheepherder]

"Sorry sir, we don't allow rocket launchers in our casino."

[Mrbloodworth]

"Sorry sir, we don't allow rocket launchers in our casino."

That's a different story, that would not require a whole instance (server), not with unreal tech. Keep in mind, and instance in this game is 40 city blocks as it said above.

[Sheepherder]

An instance refers to any discrete amount of space capable of being duplicated at will.  A casino interior is an ideal candidate for an instanced space.  A gated community or industrial park is likewise a good candidate.  A commercial plaza with controlled entrances and exits is another.

[Mrbloodworth]

An instance refers to any discrete amount of space capable of being duplicated at will.  A casino interior is an ideal candidate for an instanced space.  A gated community or industrial park is likewise a good candidate.  A commercial plaza with controlled entrances and exits is another.

None of that needs an entire server to run, nor does it require a server to have different rule sets. Not with unreal tech. I mean, unless you wanna do the whole "its bigger on the inside" and you want more than the entire 40 blocks people wise (100), then yeah, you may want a loading screen and a shared virtual server, because at 40 blocks (lord knows how many server objects), thousands of NPC's and 100 users going at it, the APB servers are overkill for that kind of space.

Its all with int he realm of possibility in existing maps. If you just want to rent a building in instance 001 of the finical district and you don't need more than the district allows for players, then just boot up unrealED, carve out the space, toss up the portal brushes, and set the rules for the space.

[Sheepherder]

The point isn't that it can be made, or the requirements for implementation.  The point is that the easiest and most accepted way to extract money from a shooter is to give clans a chunk that they lord over if they pay money for it and APB isn't doing this.  They'd prefer to charge everyone: but that strategy is new, unproven, and highly likely to cause APB to be yet another stillborn MMO as they lose critical mass after the free period with box sale ends.

[Mrbloodworth]

Mabye. But its not JUST a shooter, there are some huge fundamental differences.

[Kageru]

At the current time it sounds like most player conflicts are smaller in population count than most BF2 maps. Though the maps are larger to allow for cars. So the question of why I should be funding a larger zone in which people disconnected from the action can loiter seems to be still valid. Indeed I think smaller maps that focus and balance the action are probably going to give better gameplay. Then again they also have the problem that allowing meaningful character progression tends to lead to imbalance conflicts. I've not heard of any novel mechanics (maybe once the NDA is dropped these will become clear) to ameliorate that problem.

Launching with two zones is still  though, I can't imagine those not becoming dull and the action focused around the weakest points of balance in the maps (eg. camp spots).

I guess the gamble really is that people being able to visually customise their character will make them commit to the game. I could possibly see that, the amount of money people in wow are willing to spend on cosmetic mini-pets scares me. I still think though that customisation only acts as a secondary concern in a game that in a strong game to start with. Is APB really a superior shooter to the competition? Crimecraft and Global Alliance certainly are not.

[UnSub]

Just to clarify, our design docs NEVER read "GTA Online - money hatz!".

No, that would have been in the business model documents. 

Publicly available material puts APB at between US$50m and US$80m to develop through investment from venture capitalists. GTA was mentioned somewhere from them to throw in that kind of scratch.

Alternatively: I don't think it was Dave Jones' work on Lemmings that got those papers signed.

NDA down soon. We'll talk then.

[EvilJohn]

One minor clarification: our investment amounts were to the company itself - transitioning from a developer to an online pubisher, having other development costs (other projects, IT, ettc.) and so forth.

While I cannot comment on the APB budget size, other than to clarify those numbers represent overall investment not APB's budget.

I look forward to the NDA being down across the board - it is frustrating to see mostly negative comments on public threads because only the folks not afraid to lose access have been able to speak.

As for the business model - as one of the key stakeholders and architects - I can speak pretty confidently that there were many considerations and iterations on how we approached it, mostly in terms of finding something that we felt was fair and presented value, even if it "bucks existing trends or expectations" - playing copy cat or cash by association weren't on the list. Sorry for the spoiler. ;)

[Azazel]

Oh, and most, if not all MMOs offer a free trial. I guess they're all silly.  

Not around launch. Which is what Rendakor said.

OTOH, most games come with 1-4 "friend passes" in the retail box, that contain 7-14 day trials. I realise that they want to get as many launch-day boxes and sales as possible from the curious and optimistic, but they're be silly (IMO) not to have a free trial after that first month of release. There are a lot more games in the MMO space these days, and with stuff like DDO F2P, etc, there's more competition for that kind of thing. Toss in the fact that your GTA and Saints Row crowd arent used to paying a sub and they have a choice of trying to get a critical mass of players to try the game in those first few months, or waiting until it's too late and looking desperate.

I believe their open beta "key's to the city" is limited to 5 hours maximum game time. That sounds to me like a game with something to hide. But hey, feel free to call me bitter because my ping would probably make playing it pointless.

Fuck, 5 hours? That's not worth a 1gb download, let alone however much it actually turns out to be...

[Sheepherder]

At the current time it sounds like most player conflicts are smaller in population count than most BF2 maps. Though the maps are larger to allow for cars. So the question of why I should be funding a larger zone in which people disconnected from the action can loiter seems to be still valid. Indeed I think smaller maps that focus and balance the action are probably going to give better gameplay.

40 blocks is roughly 1/3 of a square mile, or 0.9 square kilometers.  I'm actually thinking that there might be bigger BF2 maps than that.

[Mrbloodworth]

MMORPG.com's Angela Webb writes this report of her brief time spent playing APB at a recent press event. Please note that this is not a full game preview, but a first impressions preview based on a few hours of gameplay.

All Points Bulletin is a new action MMO from Realtime Worlds, a development company based in Dundee, Scotland, which also created Crackdown. APB, which launches on June 29, 2010, takes place in the fictional world of San Paro, a living city where its players are in a constant struggle to rule the streets. This game is not really about cops and robbers, but rather a game where players can either be "the bad" or "stop the bad". Players choose to be either Enforcers or Criminals. Enforcers are players who strive to maintain a sense of order by, ironically, using violence to stop the Criminals, who want to be left alone to mark their territories and take what they please.

Last week I visited Realtime Worlds' new home office in Boulder, CO, and I was able to play the game for a couple of hours. Now experienced MMO players know that two hours is not enough time to properly review/preview a game of this nature. Also, no new news was released during my visit, so what I'm going to do instead is tell you about my short exposure to the game, including some observations about character creation, before talking about the meat of APB.
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This game sits on a fine line between being a first person shooter and an MMO. In most areas it behaves like an MMO --you have Clans (which are equivalent to guilds), missions (quests), and you a play live with others. The first thing that makes it feel different is the setting-- it takes place in a modern-day city--and secondly, it plays like a first-person shooter, meaning that you use the mouse to shoot and there is no auto/tab targeting. As you'll probably hear me repeat often, this can take a while to get used to.

Initially, the thing I first noticed about this game was the art on the loading screens. It reminded me of a mix between skater style and Banksy, very raw but artistic. At character creation I chose to play an Enforcer to start with. I had heard a lot about character creation and was very excited to try it out for myself. You might have seen the character-editor videos online, but they truly don't do this game justice. This is like a character creator you'd find in a Cryptic game turned up to eleven! I chose a female, named her, then began the joyously tedious process of making her look exactly as I wanted. The system allows you to manipulate things like eye spacing, nostril size, hip size, and countless other aspects of the face, hair and body, to get the shape and size you desire. It's amazing! Once satisfied with my physical appearance, I entered the game.

I started with the tutorial, which places your character in a parking-deck area with bland walls and a contact NPC nearby. I clicked on both mouse buttons to move around and, instead of moving my character, I shot my gun. Doh! You move around using the WASD keys. I had forgotten this already and made that mistake a handful more times throughout the day. Contacts are essentially your quest givers. After you have made contact with one, they will later call you with a mission that you can choose to accept or not. These missions are timed, so you have to make sure you have enough time to finish it before accepting. I "made" my contact and within moments I had my first mission (to spray paint a wall), and a small red icon appeared that directed me to the location where I completed my first diabolical act--tagging the wall. Subsequent missions involved blowing up a shop and stealing items.

During one of my missions, it was suggested that I should steal a car so that I would make it to the destination on time. Stealing a car was easy ... just walk in front of any nearby motorist to stop their vehicle and then press the "F" key (action/interact). My character went into action yanking the driver onto the street and jumping behind the wheel. Amid my feeble attempts to drive away, the car's previous owner stamped her feet and cussed me out as I sped off, but I could barely hear her over the great music that I was now jamming to in the car. However, Driving is NOT easy. I repeatedly ran over pedestrians and slammed into walls... but not on purpose. You can have up to four players in a car and passengers can hang out the window and shoot, but driving itself is going to take practice, especially while in combat. It does get easier as you go, however, and there is a great satisfaction when you first turn a corner using one fluid movement.

I finished the tutorial and entered the Social District. There are three areas for players to explore; two Action Districts and a Social District. The Action Districts (Financial and Waterfront) are where players complete missions, spray graffiti, and fight each other. The Social District is a non-combat zone where players create things and socialize.

The Social District is in a grassy park surrounded by very tall buildings covered with large advertising signs--think Times Square--which players are able to create themselves. You can advertise the stuff you've made (clothing, music, decals, etc.) on these signs. The second thing I noticed were large statues of players, some up to 40 ft tall. These statues can be earned or, if you're just that vain, you can buy one and personalize it to look like your character. But, you're going to have to earn quite a lot of money to do that first. The Social District is where players design music, tattoos, cars, and clothing by using special kiosk-like machines in many of the main buildings. Using a design kiosk is free, but you can sell your wares to other players to earn cash. There is no way to truly explain just how free you can be with your artistic abilities in this game--you have to experience it to believe it.

Not everything is available at the beginning of the game, but as you level up more customizable art assets unlock. If you have no artistic abilities, like myself, there are plenty of preset designs you can use and practically unlimited ways of combining color and shape to these creations. For instance, I created a design that comprised a chevron behind a dragon (both were pre-existing in-game images), chose the color for each, and was able to use the final symbol on my car, jeans, and shirt.

As for the music, you can create snippets for many different game events. At special music kiosks, a piano-like interface allows you to create melodies note by note, which you can then save. I made an eight-second tune that played whenever I killed another player. Additional background tracks can be made to enhance your creations.

After all of that, I got to experience some combat and a couple of real missions. I switched over to an already-created Enforcer character and played around in the Waterfront District. I made contact with the closest contact NPC I could find and then moseyed into the parking deck to a phone-booth-looking machine to summon my own personal car; the same car that I had just stylized in the Social District. My driving skills were still almost nonexistent, and I was barely out of the parking deck before I received my first mission. It was to go and retrieve a bunch of CDs that had been stolen and hidden. Iconned arrows appeared to show me which direction to go, and I was soon exiting my car and retrieving the item. On my way to return the CDs to my contact, my first APB went out. APBs trigger whenever a Criminal is spotted breaking the law during one of their missions. Enforcers are alerted and can choose to go and try and stop the Criminal from completing their mission. I decided to abandon my personal CD-delivery Fedex mission and headed for the action.

The robbery was going down at a convenience store. A woman was waving a gun around while two other Criminals headed for a van--no doubt their get-away vehicle. I jumped out of my car and started shooting. Well, tried to anyways. While diving into the action, I frantically tried hitting the Tab key to acquire a target. Wrong! No auto/Tab targeting here. It's all about skill (of which apparently I have very little) and I died quickly. I respawned nearby and ran back into the action. By this point, all of the Criminals were in their van... waiting. I lined up my crosshairs and aimed, and got a few shots in. However, the van, with two Criminals hanging out the windows spraying bullets, accelerated to ramming speed. The bullets got me again and I died. By the time I had respawned for the third time, they were gone. I decided to "commandeer" a car (that's what Enforcers call stealing), and headed back to my contact to drop off the CDs to complete my previous mission.

Playing this game for the first time is a bit overwhelming. It is packed to the gills with "crafty" things for players to do, like music creation and tattoo design. Players are able to use their iTunes libraries as background music to listen to while playing the game. Players can create Clans of up to 100 players of the same faction. These can have their own identity and ranks, and their own chat and voice channels. Also, players are able to make short videos of their adventures using the "awesome" button, which I'll talk about in another article. I didn't have enough time to sink my teeth into too much action, but what I did experience was pretty intense. Fighting can get extremely chaotic with guns flying and cars whizzing by, so if you're keen on that kind of thing then this game is definitely for you.

The creative aspect of this game is so compelling and extensive that you simply must try it. Even if you're only mildly interested in the guns and fighting, APB is worth looking at for its innovative approach to customization.

Source

[TripleDES]

I still think the game concept would work better in way larger gameworlds with actual persistence. GTA:SA sized game world with larger player counts, named shards, limited total characters, you know, like a MMO. Shit sprayed, left or modded in the gameworld would remain as left (sprays, your cars, anything else that may affect the gameworld layout). Of course there's that corner case where every player tries to gather in the same place and make the server cry, but anyway...

A large persistent shard could extend the whole concept, allowing you to do things like rent/buy permanent billboards, do territorial control, and god knows what.

APB instead is just smallish anonymous districts, where your crap vanishes as soon you leave. Not even your sprays stay in the district.

[Mrbloodworth]

I really wish I could tell you some things.

[LK]

Immediately discredited by calling it like a first-person shooter.

Shit, that review as terrible.

[Mrbloodworth]

Immediately discredited by calling it like a first-person shooter.

Oh, there is lots more in that that is simply wrong, I almost contemplated removing the post. That user is highly confused on a number of things.


But really though, as a side note, people have used FPS as a catch all for Third, first or any other flavor of "shooter" for years. Does it really matter?

[caladein]

Yes, because we have phrases like "First Person Shooter", "Third Person Shooter", "Twin Stick Shooter".

It's like hearing "DPS per second" or "PST me please" and being driven up a wall.  And I refuse to think it's just me being damnit!

[TripleDES]

I really wish I could tell you some things.

Where exactly do you work?

[Mrbloodworth]

Yes, because we have phrases like "First Person Shooter", "Third Person Shooter", "Twin Stick Shooter".

It's like hearing "DPS per second" or "PST me please" and being driven up a wall.  And I refuse to think it's just me being damnit!

Sorry, that made me lol.

[Sheepherder]

Another person commenting that driving is hard mode is a bad sign, IMO.

[Rendakor]

Yes, because we have phrases like "First Person Shooter", "Third Person Shooter", "Twin Stick Shooter".

It's like hearing "DPS per second" or "PST me please" and being driven up a wall.  And I refuse to think it's just me being damnit!

God I thought that was just me.

[TripleDES]

Another person commenting that driving is hard mode is a bad sign, IMO.

The problem with the driving is that it's simulated entirely server-side. It's done that way for physics consistency. Lag affects your driving skills.

[Stormwaltz]

It's like hearing "DPS per second" or "PST me please" and being driven up a wall.

God I thought that was just me.

I still don't know what PST stands for. A lot of the terms we throw around are like the three seashells in Demolition Man.

"Ha ha, he doesn't know how to use the three seashells PST!"