Post-mortem

[WindupAtheist]

So I played WoW for three months.  In that time I ran a bunch of instances, made a bunch of money, bought my first purple item, got up to level 52, and ganked a couple hundred people.  It's the longest I've played a Diku-style MMO, and the most PVP I've ever done in any MMO.  So I'm going to muse upon the experience here.

I've heard all over the internet that any monkey can get a toon up to 60 in no time, with one hand tied behind their back, but I was ready to quit by 50 and only stuck around a little longer because of my guild.  When I finally cancelled the account, I had people offering to powerlevel me and whatnot, but I had to tell them that I didn't care if they had an "instant 70" button, I just couldn't play the game anymore.

The game got less fun as I leveled up, not more, and the treadmill became SCREAMINGLY obvious.  At level 30 I was killing armored skeletons with my usual little totem/pull/shock routine.  At level 50 I was killing identical-looking but higher-leveled armored skeletons with the same routine, except I had a new totem or two and all the health/damage numbers were higher.  Stuff like that really slapped me in the face with the fact that I wasn't really "advancing" at all.

As time went on and my level went up, it all felt more and more mechanical.  The strategy of carefully managing pulls so that you could murder one monster while the others stood in plain sight without deciding to aggro felt more and more ridiculous.  The quests and whatnot came to feel like work I had to do in order to fulfill my goal of leveling up for it's own sake.

I just don't like god damn Diku.  WoW is the best Diku ever made, dripping with money and production values and content, and which contains an entire guild full of people I've known for a long time who were quite willing to chat and help me level and whatnot.  But I just couldn't take it.  It went from a neutral activity that a guild of friends bumped up to fun, to something so actively unfun that I had to reluctantly leave the guild behind.

Bleh.  Everyone around here says they hate Diku, but then when Age of Hobbits & Dingratz Online comes out, they all line up for the beta test.  I just really can't take this Everquest shit anymore though.  That thing where you pull one guard and kill him while the other guards blithely look on because they're outside of aggro range?  Someone fucking stop doing that.  Someone make a game where enemy line-of-sight is what matters.  That would be a start, at least.

[Azazel]

I quit WoW the first time at 58. I came back after 6 months, and it was fun again for awhile, till it eventually became unfun again. And back, and out.

That's just how the game is to me. It works in doses of a couple months at a time, then you need a break, then you can come back and enjoy it again. Your preference to grind and skip most of the quests would make the grind-levelling-treadmill significantly worse, though.

[Merusk]

Bleh.  Everyone around here says they hate Diku,...

Not everyone. There's at least 3 of us who enjoy it.  :-D

That said, you've never liked Diku, and I'm amazed you lasted to even 50.  I figured you'd be out after a week or so, tops.  Not all games are for all people, which is why I do feel badly that nobody at all seems interested in developing a new virtual world.  There's a lot of folks wanting something OTHER than Diku who don't enjoy UO or Eve.

[Arrrgh]

They should go back to allowing people (the ones who want to get exp anyway, twinks don't) to turn in BG tokens for exp.

Same goes for the outdoor PVP tokens you get in BC.

L70s should be able to just cash them in.

[slog]

Sounds to me like you got your money's worth.  3 months entertainment out of one game is pretty decent.

[Jayce]

I agree with Merusk. I don't claim to hate diku.  In fact I apparently love it, because it's the majority of what I've been playing since 1995 or so, starting with text muds based on the real diku code.

That said, I have often thought some of the same things about aggro range and the fact that the advancement gets repetitive after a while.  But I guess I just take them as a conceit of the genre, not a dealbreaker.

[ajax34i]

I quit my first character at 52.  Ran out of quests, got bored, quit.

6 months later, took another character to 60, then raided to Tier 2 stuff.  The difference this time was that I was in a much better guild.  Then it disbanded itself in a big shiny colorful burst of drama.   I tried a bunch of alts on different servers, but ended up getting bored and quitting.

Now I resubbed, gonna try an alt, see how it goes.  The guild I'm in has the potential to be good, it depends on how it'll grow.  We'll see.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

Quest chains are what keeps me interested in a character while satisfying the dinggratz.  Satisfying quests tend to taper off after level 35 or so then pick back up with a vengeance at 58 since BC's been released.  Blizzard really needs to revisit old zones and quest chains now that BC sets a higher bar.  Going from The Ghostlands to Hillsbrad is jarring.

[WindupAtheist]

That's just how the game is to me. It works in doses of a couple months at a time, then you need a break, then you can come back and enjoy it again. Your preference to grind and skip most of the quests would make the grind-levelling-treadmill significantly worse, though.

I did start questing more as I got higher up in levels, but I don't view that as being much of an issue one way or another.  I'm still zapping skeletons for an hour, whether or not I bring their finger bones back to the witch-doctor.

And I'm not really complaining that the game ripped me off or anything.  As Slog there said, three months is plenty, even if it was mostly the guild that kept me around.  On my own, I really would have quit after a week.

I'm just really sure this time that I simply don't like this sort of game.  Last time I played, I complained that I was bored and got told "Duh, you rolled a paladin and were on your own, of course you were bored!"  This time I rolled something else, had a guild to play with, and yeah.  It's just not for me.

[Rasix]

I like DIKU.  I'm just having issues getting into lack luster DIKUs after playing WoW.  They always send me crawling back.

I never expected you to last as long as you did, WUA.  Perfectly normal to get burnt out especially if it's system you don't like.  And when you quit, I would expect that.  45-50 is just about the worst stretch to level.

As for the grind..  you get good at and honestly if you play less it goes faster (hooray for rested EXP).  My druid just hit level 70 and barely cracked 10 days /played (he might not have, lvl 69 only took like 4 hours).  First char hit 60 at 12 days and the rogue hit it at 10.  Yes, I might have an almost OCD like leveling disorder.  It's shorter than other DIKUs I've played at the times I've played them, but it doesn't compare to a UO or SWG, where honestly, you don't feel a grind.  At least I never did. 

[Merusk]

I felt the grind in SWG, hardcore.

But then I was an entertainer-dancer/ merchant / mineral & power surveyor.  Boy, was that painful.

[WindupAtheist]

You know Rasix, you have a point.  In all my years of UO, I never had a 100% finished character until just last year.  And yet over all that time, I never felt compelled to grind out my last ten points of Resisting Spells, or whatever.  I can't quite put my finger on why, though.

[Nebu]

You both made me realize something as well.  I don't think I've ever had a 100% finished character in a PvE game either.  The only games where I really spent the time and energy to get a toon all decked out were DAoC and UO where it helped me be more competitive in the PvP endgame. I've played WoW on four different occasions and while I found the game to be very polished, I never really felt driven to make it to the end. 

I guess we all have a different carrot that gets us to where we want to be.  I've grinded out more toons than I can count in DAoC (a game with pretty uninteresting PvE) but have yet to have a capped toon in WoW, CoH, SWG, or EQ2.  I've recently resubbed to CoH and am making an effort to enjoy the journey rather than focus on what I'll have when I get to the endgame.  I'm starting to wonder if I'm just hardwired to think the way that I do about games and that no amount of effort or attempt to appreciate the journey will overcome it.   

[WayAbvPar]

I have never had a maxxed character. The closest I have come was in SB when the cap was like 60, but Rank 5 was the highest with limited returns as you leveled...I was like 54 or 56. Have a 65.5 Rogue now in WoW that WILL get to 70, goddamnit. I just want to finish leveling him so I can participate in more guild stuff like heroics and PvP and whatnot.

[Jayce]

WoW was the first game ever that I had a maxed character in... and I originally quit at 58 :)

But then I came back and got my warrior to 60 (+epix), a priest to 62 and should have a mage to 70 sometime in the next few months.

[naum]

1. Been subscribed to WoW since launch, have taken big hiatuses (they must love customers like me)… …must have a dozen toons 30+, a few 40+ but no high level… …leave for months and when I return, usually prefer to start anew…

2. WoW best DIKU I played them all except for a few of the newer ones, and got to see friends, co-workers play and hear how craptacular they were in comparison to the polish of WoW…

3. I can't even describe to family or friends (except to those who have played) why anyone would want to subscribe to one of these types of games…

4. It gets tiresome, and I thought I'd be burned out of any desire to play after 8+ years…

5. Until I get a Wild West MMORPG client on my machine!

[Xanthippe]

Naum, I recommend that you take one toon to 70, so you can see how much better Blizz got since launch.

Or make a blood elf or draenei and go through to 20. 

It's heartening to me that one mmog company has learned from their past mistakes.  The questing is smoother, less running around, makes more sense, is more cohesive, and so on. 

[rk47]

my guild had a little split today. was fucking funny seeing 2 warriors , a pally and mage decide to break away from guild and start their own.

Their reason? To raid more regularly and plan for karazan. Yeha i'm sure they can do it in a week.
http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.php?module=see&lang=uk&code=a858d127b1c5d63375bd16777ea674f2

[Xuri]

I'm so slow at levelling in WoW that by the time I hit whatever is the current level-cap and prepare myself to finally experience some "end-game" content, an expansion has been released and I'm once again way behind. ;P

[Fabricated]

I'm so slow at levelling in WoW that by the time I hit whatever is the current level-cap and prepare myself to finally experience some "end-game" content, an expansion has been released and I'm once again way behind. ;P

BC is an amazingly awesome expansion until you hit the very very end, and by end I mean everything past Karazhan. Despite the fact BC added a mess of raids and more are coming, the raiding portion of the population got a stick in the eye. The encounters are bugged (note my Vashj thread I fucked up by expressing my personal amusement and fascination with the hardkore), and the loot is decidedly underwhelming outside of some of the weaponry. If you never really plan on doing anymore more than 10-man raiding, be ready to be amused at your blues being just as good as, or sometimes better than the epics coming out of the LATER raids.

[Slayerik]

I'm so slow at levelling in WoW that by the time I hit whatever is the current level-cap and prepare myself to finally experience some "end-game" content, an expansion has been released and I'm once again way behind. ;P

BC is an amazingly awesome expansion until you hit the very very end, and by end I mean everything past Karazhan. Despite the fact BC added a mess of raids and more are coming, the raiding portion of the population got a stick in the eye. The encounters are bugged (note my Vashj thread I fucked up by expressing my personal amusement and fascination with the hardkore), and the loot is decidedly underwhelming outside of some of the weaponry. If you never really plan on doing anymore more than 10-man raiding, be ready to be amused at your blues being just as good as, or sometimes better than the epics coming out of the LATER raids.

Standard Blizzard policy. Let the hardcore raiders find the endgame bugs while they polish the shit 90% of their playerbase will be taking part in. Expect many fixes to the true endgame raid stuff soon.

Not that I play anymore, but any MMO that had me for 2 years still has me checking their forums :)

I just couldnt get into BC. Even with a great guild, I had started Eve and it spoiled the meaningless PVP that Wow provides. Sure, its good for a little lightweight action now and then, but in the end its inferior to me.

[Modern Angel]

The big irony is that it's becoming increasingly apparent that the reason the blues are as good as the stuff dropping from Tier 5 bosses is because of that bland, meaningless pvp.

They want the arenas to be balanced. BALANCED, in all caps. They've outlawed all mods for the final rounds. Swell and dandy but for two years, for right or wrong, the gear gap was what drove people to take part in their endgame at all. So they've sacrificed the reason the majority of their everyday customers come back and pay month in and month out on the altar of balance. It's flabbergasting.

[Oban]

The big irony is that it's becoming increasingly apparent that the reason the blues are as good as the stuff dropping from Tier 5 bosses is because of that bland, meaningless pvp.

They want the arenas to be balanced. BALANCED, in all caps. They've outlawed all mods for the final rounds. Swell and dandy but for two years, for right or wrong, the gear gap was what drove people to take part in their endgame at all. So they've sacrificed the reason the majority of their everyday customers come back and pay month in and month out on the altar of balance. It's flabbergasting.

That actually makes quite a bit of sense.  My sub lapsed awhile ago because I did not see a reason to upgrade my T3 and decided to wait for the next expansion before playing again.

However, I think it is healthy that Blizzard is pandering to the ninety percent of casuals as opposed to the less than one percent, the extreme hardcore players.

[Merusk]

Blizz is moving their game in the PvP direction.  It's slow, and it's happening in baby steps, but that's where it's going.  I expect the next expansion to have not only the current PvE -affected-by-PvP zone objectives, but some sort of Alterac Valley for epix. 

This makes the most sense because 1) their historic fan base has always been PvP+ 2) most folks who've subbed long-term have PvP'd at one point or another 3) PvP+ players seem to make up the majority of their player base these days (just based on # of servers. If you include PvP servers + full-time PvP end-gamers it's very much the case) 4) PvP-as-endgame means a LOT less worrying about their glacial content pace.

It's like a reverse Trammelization.  I've heard PvE-hardcore folks bitch about it in the past, even before they saw their PvE was going to be affected by PvP in BC. (Albeit to a relativly minor degree.)

[Modern Angel]

No arguments from m on those points, Merusk. I just find it odd because pvp was always a poorly conceived after thought. Whether it was the lack of ANY in-game motive for pvp at the start or the OCD only abortion of an honor system or the horribly bland compartmentalized battlegrounds I'd argue that this was never a pvp game first regardless of the LOLGANKU stuff on the pvp servers. So it's a radical and jarring shift.

WoW pvp was never predicated on gear balance. It's a diku.

[Zane0]

I don't think you'll ever get them to admit a predilection towards one or the other, though past emphasis has certainly been on PvE. Of course, you could argue that one requires far more developer resources than the other to substain.

Thing is, they're still putting a ton of work into the new 25 man raid instances - you've got Gruuls, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine, Tempest Keep, Black Temple (being worked on currently), Hyjal, and another 10-man epic instance in the wings. The only difference ironically, is that they're so poorly tuned and itemized that only the most hardcore are getting into some of the stuff. People say that Blizzard is finally catering to the 'casuals'? Raid content is still sucking up a huge portion of resources, and is less accessible to the masses now than ever before.

Truth is, there's not much of a change in priority at all. PvE is just currently not very well tuned.

[Calantus]

My brother and I are playing again with a "never raid again" mentality partly because of arenas. That thread about the sponsorship got me looking into how the arenas were turning out and I was hooked after reading people talk about the top teams and strategies and which classes were the most useful, etc. It's also why I started playing CS back in the day, because of the high caliber of competition and skill around the game if you played in the right places. WoW has always failed at making actual competition for PVP (trying to 5-cap a pug who wants to hold farm and only farm is not my idea of competition), but with arenas it's looking like they are actually trying. If they get it right it will be fantastic for me, and for them since a lot of players will be happy with no real extra content made for them for vast stretches of time. And if not, at least the new questing will be fun.

The Draenei starting zones were really nice. The quests just stacked by themselves to an extent and there was just so much of it, and every area seemed to have at least one quest that had you doing something at that location. I haven't tried Outland yet though.


EDIT: Also on the subject of what Blizzard want in their games it has been said (by themselves) that many of them were rabid EQ raiders and loved it, but they have also always wanted to put PVP into their games (infamously in the case of Diablo 2, oh my the bitching from that one), so I'd suspect they've always wanted both in WoW. If I were to guess I'd say PVP was largely neglected because it was the less proven facet in MMOGs, they knew PVE worked in EQ and they knew roughly how to do it, but not so for PVP. Now they've seen that their players are willing to PVP and that it is relatively popular so they're now going ahead with trying to bring it up with raiding as a valid endgame activity.

[Koyasha]

Balancing items due to Arenas ironically makes very little sense because Arenas have an automatic balance mechanism built in - you are paired up with others of similar ranking, so either by skill or equipment, you and your opponents have both earned the right to face each other and have similar opportunity for victory.  In arenas, due to the ranking system, there won't be the epic teams rolling the noobs with zero effort - they'll be matching up with similar teams.

Furthermore, with Resilience being a primarily PvP thing, and stats starting to get -slightly- emphasized differently in various regions of the game, your raiding epics may simply not be the optimum choice in arenas, even if they are otherwise 'better'.  Furthermore, even if the raid gear would be 'better', all they would have to do is add in arena rewards that are equal or better to the raid gear.

Raid rewards should be superior to group rewards, but they should keep it somewhat balanced to where raid rewards are say, no more than 230% of group rewards.  Ranging from about 150% to 230% the quality of group based rewards would keep them within reasonable distance without making them side-grades or completely underwhelming upgrades.  Arena rewards, however, should be on par (and really, better than) with raid rewards for the purpose of PvP.  They should be inferior in a well-constructed PvE raid, however (but not so much as to be inferior to groupable pve stuff).

[WindupAtheist]

I hope Blizzard drives their hardcore raiders right out of the game.  When the exodus doesn't even generate a blip on the radar in terms of subscription numbers, maybe the industry will get over thinking those people matter.

[Chenghiz]

Balancing items due to Arenas ironically makes very little sense because Arenas have an automatic balance mechanism built in - you are paired up with others of similar ranking, so either by skill or equipment, you and your opponents have both earned the right to face each other and have similar opportunity for victory.  In arenas, due to the ranking system, there won't be the epic teams rolling the noobs with zero effort - they'll be matching up with similar teams.

Gear differential still means you cannot play at an even level with your opponents. If your rating is lower than it should be because you are outgeared (or higher than it should be because you are well geared) then although you are fighting people with similar win/loss ratios, you are not fighting people with similar levels of skill. In that sense balancing items makes perfect sense. As long as arena items keep up with raid items in terms of quality (and Blizzard has indicated that this is their intention) then I see no problems with the current system, though. The time it takes to get gear seems roughly equal for both methods of progression.

[Morfiend]

I hope Blizzard drives their hardcore raiders right out of the game.  When the exodus doesn't even generate a blip on the radar in terms of subscription numbers, maybe the industry will get over thinking those people matter.

I think you would be supprised at just how many people raid in wow. Yeah, its not huge numbers, but I would bet its a lot more that we all think.

I love WoW, I really do. I am a total fanboy for their polish and style, but the BC itemization is really getting me down. My main is a rogue, and the rogue armor is just horrible in the new endgame. I mean, we have drops in karazhan that are 3-5 stat points over the level 70 dungeon sets, and even serpentshrine some of the leather drops are actually subpar to level 70 blues. It seriously make no sense.

[caladein]

As I can see it, there's three possible arguments here for the gear progression: the factual, the practical, and the "WTF Blizz?"...

• First off, the factual. Here you'd disagree with this progression: 115 Blue < 95 Epic << 105 Epic << 115 Epic << 125 Epic in terms of raw itemization budget.
  
  (For reference: level 70 Blues/Dungeon Set 3, Exalted Rep/BoE Crafted Epics, Early-Kara/BoP Crafted Epics, T4, T5 respectively.) On that road lies madness simply because... these items do have larger itemization budgets. They might not be worth the effort or maybe itemized poorly, but that's the other two arguments.
  
  
• Second off, the practical: Going from one tier to another isn't "worth it".
  
  While I can bring up the "well, so it isn't fun by itself" jab, it's really pretty pointless. The main thing here is to understand that the jump from Dungeon Set 1 to Tier 1 isn't going to happen until Dungeon Set 3 -> Tier 5. That can give you an idea of how much smaller these steps are then they used to be... a Good Thing (tm) for PvP-balance (on top of resilience).
  
  
• The last one, and probably the one with the most legs is: "Why the hell does my Priest T5 DPS set have so much Crit on it, wtf?"
  
  This has the most legs because it's so subjective it can go on for hours. One man's awesome Shadow Priest drop, is another man's poorly-itemized Mage drop. It also has roots in the absolute abundance of 115 Blues. In all those drops from every single boss, I was able to find about one and a half kits of gear that I felt were perfect for my character, I can then dabble in the 95 Epics as I get them.
  
  When I go to the Kara drops though, I'm hard-pressed to find replacements for about half my gear. Not because it's really all that bad, but instead because I'm so happy with my mixed-Blues/Epics, that unless it's itemized just right it's at best a side-grade. This occurs sort of in reverse with weapons since they're all about DPS first so it's an easy thing to see... higher item level = more DPS = good. The story on armor for the most part is a lot murkier.

Do I think some thing could stand to be better itemized? Yeah. Do I still smile when I see the h4rdc0re pounding their head against a wall not for the reward... but simply because it's there? Yeah. (I'm sure every raiding guild has gone through the analysis I just laid out... hopefully.)

[Modern Angel]

One other thing is that some items are simply wrong mathwise. Apparently there are a large number of items which they misbudgeted after the stamina change.

[Calantus]

The other problem with high itemisation curve and PVP is barrier of entry. If the top end arena gear and raiding gear is much more powerful that what you'd expect to have as a semi-fresh 70 then it's going to be very unfun hitting the rating where the itemisation jumps.

I'm thinking they did all the progression of itemisation completely wrong in BC. They've basically thrown in every 5man the expansion is going to get and put them below raiding in the PVE item progression line. Personally I'd like to see them treat 5mans as a progression line in and of themselves with a power curve below that of raiding progression. So release Gruul, Mag, SSC for raids at the beginning, and release 2-3 5mans at the same time. Then when you crank out Hyjal put out another 5man release a 5man that contains upgrades to the old 5man content (with power around that of the last raiding tier), and do the same for black temple. 10 mans can just be thrown in as they get made and be sort of a bridge between 5man and 10man item-wise, with drops that range from upgrades to 5man content and upgrades to 25man content. That way you can have real item progression, but still keep everyone who doesn't do X activity(s) relatively closely itemised with everyone else regardless of what they're doing so long as they are doing something. Also you can then just up the arena/honor tiers at the same time as the raid/5man release without having to figure out where everyone is on progression.

[Zetor]

They tried to do something like that with tier0.5 a year or so ago.. give the non-raiders a chance to upgrade their gear without having to raid. (though technically the last part was a 10-man raid.. Karazhan, anyone?)

It failed pretty badly. Not only was t0.5 a colossal PITA to get (and freakin' expensive... talking about 700+ gold per person in mats alone), it just plain wasn't worth it. Why wipe on valthalak (or spork your own eyes out doing 45-min strat run attempts in a pug) eleventy billion times when you could just go on a random ZG/MC pug and get far better gear with a fraction of the effort? And then there was the minor factor of tier0.5 actually being WEAKER than random dungeon blues / AV and other easy-to-get blue pvp gear / etcetera.

Heroics are a better option now (even though they're pretty badly tuned, the trash is ridiculous in some instances), but ultimately I just see them as a "stepping stone" to raiding (hence the requirement of doing heroic dungeons in raid attunements), not a possible endgame. Oh, and most of the badge of justice rewards suck donkey balls, which doesn't help.


-- Z.