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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Raph is no longer taunting us (Metaplace) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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taolurker
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Reply #490 on: September 18, 2007, 08:49:47 PM

Sure, games can be made from this, and probably will--Raph's site says they will in fact do so. But why does every single thing that gets made in the software industry have to be something everyone thinks is simply amazing?

See, I believe that most people (here) are interested not so much in making their own games, as they are in finding new and better games. I know that games can be made by this, and I'm hoping that any game development tools Raph creates are user friendly, easy to use and also end up with lots of interesting, fun little games.. but most of all I am interested in Raph's game made using these same tools he wants all people to eventually start using. This is the true test of it's being simply amazing, and if Raph isn't able to make a decent (fun?) MMO with the tools he's marketing, then it's probably never for me.

Quote
Stuff like this is fleshing out the internet space from a bunch if animated gifs and text based forums to the next generation of interactive participation. I don't like the way a lot of my neighbors keep their yard, or the decisions they make painting their house--but I still love my neighborhood and enjoy walking around it.

Interactive participation in it's next evolution probably will not happen through a game, or a tool for creating games, but I certainly hope that I'm proven wrong. I don't really want interactive participation, as I'm also one of the people who refuse to MySpace, but I certainly hope that Raph is able to evolve the MMO genre with this (and not just creating a "tween toolset").


Quote
And of course, the part you're all waiting for. We are making Raph's new worldy MMO in our platform.

This is what most of the people here want to hear, so detailsplskthnx.


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Yoru
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Reply #491 on: September 18, 2007, 09:00:35 PM

Now that we've got more information on the table, I'll just put my opinion this way: I'll beta it and pay attention to the news feeds. An open-access content creation platform is neat.
Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #492 on: September 18, 2007, 09:21:26 PM

Whew, a lot of questions, and I haven't had the chance to grab dinner yet! So brief answers:

I'm a consumer of this stuff, not a creator as I expell all my creative juice at the job that gives me a real paycheck.


We expect, and have designed for, 90% of the people on Metaplace to be players, not builders.

If you have something that a mid 40's guy would like in there Raph I am all ears, and it does not have to be a balanced sandbox space type game to get me interested. But my interest level with interacting with teens and below is never going to be there.


Perfect. Unlike VWs where you and the teens all get thrown together, here worlds are segmented. So you don't need to have the teens in your world. Heck, make it private. Make SNDWorld and limit it to cranky vets, if you want. :) Keep in mind, SNDWorld could be a copy of the game we're making, of course. :)

So basically they have Cyworld level functionality at the moment.


No, more like UO, Diablo II, Baldur's Gate. We have 3d isometric heightfields, for example. There's a physics system you can use (or not). It is designed to transition fairly seamlessly to just running in a 1st person 3d environment, after all. So the server is designed that way for the start -- it's the clients that aren't there yet.

Whether I remain interested hinges on whether this turns out to be apple pie or shit sandwich once you get down into particulars like stability, content creation, bandwidth requirements, price, and the power of the client.  I've got a web server at my disposal to tinker on, so if you're willing to stick me on the testing list, I'm willing to test.


We're doing all the hosting at first, actually. But eventually, we do plan to let the servers out too.

Bandwidth we're still working on, but the goal is to get as low as we can while supporting arcade-level action. Of course, you can make a really low-bandwidth world quite easily -- use click to move (you can make any movement style you want -- actually you just drag in the movement module you want, you won't need to make them probably, since they will be so common)...  One of the worlds we have right now is basically a Subspace sort of game, so we use that as a reference point for bandwidth usage.

This is what most of the people here want to hear [about Raph’s worldy MMO], so detailsplskthnx.


Not yet. :)

I've been kinda wanting to try making one of these web MMO things for a while now, but the barrier to entry of getting hosting, writing/finding an engine, et cetera, has put me off.  Now it sounds like Raph wants to give those things to me for a nominal or possibly nonexistent cost?  I'll bite.

Small world is free. Playing is free.

How far away is the 3d client?

Next year. unless you get in the beta, read the Wiki page on "how to write a client" and just beat us to it. We meant it when we said "open."

If Areola provides a bunch of moderately full featured example design frameworks, tons of documentation for an online runbook in some format like a wiki, and a massive amount of art assets for fledgling designers to toy with, we could see some pretty neat little experiments being born. If not, well, not.


We have "stylesheets." A stylesheet might be as simple as a health bar or as complex as, well, the MMO we're making. You can inherit stylesheets, drag in mdoules, etc. What's more, anything you make can also become a stylesheet. (You can also make your stuff closed source if you want).

There is already a Wiki with every API call, every tag in the markup language, etc etc. You'll need to be in the alpha to see it tho. Also, YOU can edit the Wiki to help extend the docs.

Raph, please explain how light clients can approach the kind of performance we have come to expect in modern MMOs. Or if the clients aren't all going to be light, how is distribution, patching, etc.  handled.


So, this clearly isn't coming across. This is an OPEN STANDARD. So clients can be as light or as heavy as anyone wants. We're making reference clients, but frankly, we're not in the client business.

Yay, a sea of crappy half-baked, half-finished content that I can peruse praying for something that's decent but doesn't get abandoned in 3-6 months when the "oh crap, this really takes effort" or "fuckers, I can't deal with all these assholes" or "wtf, I'm paying to make someone else money" effects kick-in.  It's genius and will make them tons of money, but those fools who make the popular mods/ worlds/ whatever are lining someone else's pockets with their sweat.

We have a site that indexes every single world made, so that players can review, rate, tag, and so on. In factm every world made gets a profile page with forums and stuff out of the box.

So good stuff should bubble to the top. We sort by ratings, popularity, recency, all that jazz.

People who make popular content can make money, btw. Cash out.

MMO as MUD I'd wade through crap to find a gem- and did in the 90's.  Paying for it? Not so much.

Play for FREE.

Stuff like this is fleshing out the internet space from a bunch if animated gifs and text based forums to the next generation of interactive participation.


See, that's the stuff this crowd doesn't want to hear. ;) But yes -- what we are doing is trying to make it so that a virtual place will be as typical to see on a page as a movie or music or an image.
taolurker
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Reply #493 on: September 18, 2007, 09:36:19 PM

Quote from: Raph
But yes -- what we are doing is trying to make it so that a virtual place will be as typical to see on a page as a movie or music or an image.

Is anyone else here as incredibly scared of seeing the F13 "virtual place" as I am?

I'm assuming that there's an NDA for this Open Standard beta? or is that a contradiction that I'm implying from what was revealed so far?


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Grublet
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Reply #494 on: September 18, 2007, 09:39:27 PM

Newbfight!

And Salamok, you're a fucking idiot.

Taolurker isn't much better. Neither are you, Nutsack.
Grublet
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Reply #495 on: September 18, 2007, 09:45:06 PM

Is anyone else here as incredibly scared of seeing the F13 "virtual place" as I am?

I look forward to Meatplace run by Raptor Fucking Jesus or whomever.

Seriously, if I wanted to make something I would buy Torque. I'm also not a fan of this whole "we're not in the client business". Smacks of multiple MUD clients which where all jazzy versions of Telnet. Maybe you should get Zugg Soft as a launch partner.
Krakrok
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Reply #496 on: September 18, 2007, 09:58:58 PM

OpenID at all? How are you going to handle user sessions? If I load up a page that has a Metaplace embed on it can I interact with it without having an account?

Edit: Unified avatar or all separate?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 10:04:35 PM by Krakrok »
Yoru
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Reply #497 on: September 18, 2007, 10:22:20 PM

I got a question: How far out are you from a beta state? That is, when do you think you'll be ready to give the press tours of the tech? Since you mentioned the 3d client as a year out, I would expect later than that, but...

And hey, plane tickets to San Diego are pretty cheap for me. :)
Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #498 on: September 18, 2007, 11:01:19 PM

Back from dinner, about to crash...

No login required for a world unless the world requires it. So go to the page, you're in as a guest by default. You can just email someone a link and they can get iin by just clicking it.

Hopefully, open beta in the spring. Press before that for sure... closed beta or even late alpha.

Cheddar
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Reply #499 on: September 18, 2007, 11:29:18 PM

Back from dinner, about to crash...

No login required for a world unless the world requires it. So go to the page, you're in as a guest by default. You can just email someone a link and they can get iin by just clicking it.

Hopefully, open beta in the spring. Press before that for sure... closed beta or even late alpha.

Have you approached any large telecoms about pimping this?  With your powers combined...

Money.  Resources.  Power.

I now have a massive erection thinking about it.

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
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Reply #500 on: September 19, 2007, 12:28:56 AM

Metaplace sounds interesting. There's a huge opportunity out there for players to build their own games if the system is easy enough. I can easily see a lot of players flocking to Raph's new MMO (of whom, 90% will go "This isn't the sandbox we wanted!" but only about 10% of them leaving immediately) and to start tinkering around with the edges. And that is all it really needs to start - just some minor tinkering - and suddenly Metaplace has some new content that can be used elsewhere. And the cycle repeats for every piece of new content developed by players. Not everyone will build something, but enough will if it is easy enough to do so. Nice.

I've had an idea for an episodic FPS for a while now that would possibly find a home in Metaplace. I'll be interested to see how FPSs evolve (hell, start) in Metaplace.

Questions:

What protections are you putting in to stop potentially damaging content getting out i.e. system crashing mechanisms, unwanted sexual content, hostile system / world cracking etc?

How will Metaplace be protected from those who create copyright infringing content? Especially if it moves quickly from 'world' to 'world'?

For your Raph Koster-approved Metaplace MMO, are you going to allow players to contribute to it / take systems from it?

Catalan
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Reply #501 on: September 19, 2007, 01:16:35 AM

Sounds great, signed up to get a look ASAP. A bit bittersweet as it's quite similar to things I envisioned long ago but never got past some napkin planning.

How easy will be to create "in world" portals to other worlds? that would open a lot of nice possibilities.
Ironwood
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Reply #502 on: September 19, 2007, 01:37:00 AM

I remember when Neverwinter Nights came out and destroyed the MMO industry as we knew it.  Who knew that everyone in the world wanted to take the time to make content?  And that everything they made would be things other people wanted to see?  Yep, user-created content sure is the future.

And all those illiterate horny teenagers who can barely handle getting some shitty rap song to play on their MySpace page?  They'll take to the design and creation of virtual worlds like fish to water, I tell you.

This post is so green it turned white again.

I'm with this guy.

What a lot of wank.

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Endie
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Reply #503 on: September 19, 2007, 02:09:01 AM

I don't want to sound like I should be writing at the Cesspit, but fuck it, I was pretty damn close.

I'm looking forward to getting the chance to play with these tools.  Really looking forward to it.  I want to see if it can really reach ubiquity.

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Quinton
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Reply #504 on: September 19, 2007, 02:34:55 AM

Wacky.  I filled out the alpha signup dealie -- probably don't fit the typical profile much, more systems developer than gamesdev type and not terribly hardcore on the gaming side, but embedded systems and mobile/portable devices are my thing and if you're going open platform/protocol, I'm curious to see what can be done with non-pc platforms.

- Q
Merusk
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Reply #505 on: September 19, 2007, 04:13:00 AM

You keep pimping the "Its free!" angle (which should be made more clear in the stuff we've seen so far, obviously.), so here's the question.  How do YOU GUYS make money to continue development and refinement of this portal/ product.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Typhon
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Reply #506 on: September 19, 2007, 04:34:58 AM

their souls aren't FREE, but you can buy advertising space on them.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #507 on: September 19, 2007, 04:54:33 AM

Fuck it.  I scoff, but I'll probably end up trying to make a game on there if it's cheap to do so.  Me and a few friends have had fun tinkering around with UO freeshards in the past.  This could be kinda the same thing.  I can make my own shitty amateur virtual world with no PK.  Slayerik can make the same game with lots of PK.  And then we can fight over whose is better.

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Reply #508 on: September 19, 2007, 06:00:02 AM

Fuck it.  I scoff, but I'll probably end up trying to make a game on there if it's cheap to do so.  Me and a few friends have had fun tinkering around with UO freeshards in the past.  This could be kinda the same thing.  I can make my own shitty amateur virtual world with no PK.  Slayerik can make the same game with lots of PK.  And then we can fight over whose is better.

Presumably, though, you'll have to use his world to fight over it in, since there's no PvP in yours.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities for persistent cross-world avatars.  Is it an idea whose moment has come?

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Ixxit
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Reply #509 on: September 19, 2007, 06:46:17 AM

Quote
I’m sure you all are wondering – “Why should gamers care? What is cool about Metaplace for us?”

Well, we’re making this platform in an effort to improve the pool of repetitive MMO mediocrity that is out there right now. We know that MMO gamers as a whole aren’t really ‘feeling’ the current choices of games that they have. There is a lot of subscribing and unsubscribing and resubscribing. We are out to change all that, and this is the way to do it. Far better tools, faster development time, lower budgets, and openness to new talent. There really isn’t a limitation to what people can make with Metaplace – and there are a lot of creative people out there with limited access to expensive tools and large teams. We’re simplifying things so that even you can make something totally awesome, even without programming skills.

Where have all the modders gone? That’s right, there aren’t any left! Now is your chance to let your brilliant game design ideas flow and come to life in your own world. Everything is open and extendable in whatever direction you want to take it – and we can’t wait to see what direction that is!

You have to admit it; the whole concept of ‘play anywhere’ is pretty neat. How often have you wanted to play a game with your friends, only to find out that their video card can’t support the game? Have you ever been trapped in an airport for longer than expected with just your cell phone or an ancient laptop? We plan to show you just how good a game can look in a browser, and just how much fun it can be to play. Imagine people playing YOUR RPG on their cell phone, or in their Facebook, or in the sidebar of a gaming blog. That is accessibility, and we’re out to show you just how awesome it can be.

And of course, the part you’re all waiting for. We’re making Raph’s new worldy MMO in our platform.


The bolded part is what I am interested in.  Another worldly game from Raph.

I am a little confused about the rest though, and I think in this statement there are more than a few incorrect assumptions about the mmo market.  While certainly  there are gamers that aren't feeling the mmo market anymore (and a rather large sample at F13), how big is this segment and will  Metaplace be the  magical balm that heals this perceived disatisfaction.

While the system may be of intereset  to a small niche of content creators, will people (unpaying customers) weaned on AAA titles flock to Metaplace to see implementation after implementation of the 3D equivalent of "Hello World" and have their imaginations tweaked enough to invest their money in the tools to create their own spaces (which I assume is part of the financial model).

As a creator, projecting oneself into the online world may be a fun diversion for a time, but how many people will actually have the talent and more importantly are willing to take the time to create something that will of interest to the drooling hordes of mmo players looking for the next WoW which the press release assumes are disgruntled and subbing and subbing constantly to the various games out there.  While  I understand you guys/gals  want to generate interest and buzz for your product this press release sounds a bit 'infomercialish' in that it is makes some pretty  enthusiastic claims about the ease of use of the product to create desirable content. Not just content, but desireable content.


Sorry for sounding negative, I don't mean to;  it all sounds quite myterious and  interesting.  But hasn't this all been done before to some extent with Acitive Worlds, Second Life, etc.  What makes you guys think that players are going to flock en mass to these worlds?  It all sounds rather niche.

What I am really interested in, and I suspect a lot of people familiar with Raph's previous work,  are the details of the  virtual world space (game) YOU guys are creating and how playable and fun it will be as it stands on its own.   I truly hope that it  is a killer app because history has shown us that if players are left to create the fun then it's pretty much the niche you will end up with or worse the mmo graveyard.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 07:22:32 AM by Ixxit »

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Kitsune
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Reply #510 on: September 19, 2007, 06:53:59 AM

Sturgeon's Law is going to be in full effect here, no doubt.  Actually, Sturgeon's Law is going to be too lenient, I'd boost the percentage from ninety to at least ninety-five percent of the self-made content will be mediocre at best if it's being generated by myspace kids.  I'm sure that the end result in short order will reveal itself to be that the handful of truly talented people will make games that become popular, and they'll give away/sell those games that will be used by most of the people.
Sky
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Reply #511 on: September 19, 2007, 06:56:50 AM

All I can think of calling this place even in my own thoughts now is Meatplace. Thanks, fuckers.
Bah, me too. Sonofa.

I'm staying tuned for Raph's wordly funhouse adventure. I'm too lazy to make my own content, I'm a CONSUMAH. FEED ME. Err...woops.

But it does kinda make me chuckle when I think back to when it first came out that Raph got hired by SOE and I opined that it was a good thing...you could make some money and then make the game you wanted to make. You (naively, and I do count that as a plus) replied: "I hope that's what I'm doing at SOE!". Well...I hate to say I told you so (no I don't), but look at what corporate interference did to what could've been a good game. And look at how they are standing around doing unspeakable things with it's remains.

I think this is going to be a much better project for you...just beware the griefers :)
BigBlack
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Reply #512 on: September 19, 2007, 06:59:51 AM

This is now officially What I'm Waiting For.

I've never played Ryzom, but hearing the announcement of Ryzom Ring got me incredibly excited - until I realized how limited it was, more duplo than lego.

Question to Raph:  Will it be possible to do 2D with this?  Either top-down, Zelda-style 2D, or side-scrolling, Mario-style 2D?
Slayerik
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Reply #513 on: September 19, 2007, 07:04:40 AM

Fuck it.  I scoff, but I'll probably end up trying to make a game on there if it's cheap to do so.  Me and a few friends have had fun tinkering around with UO freeshards in the past.  This could be kinda the same thing.  I can make my own shitty amateur virtual world with no PK.  Slayerik can make the same game with lots of PK.  And then we can fight over whose is better.

Presumably, though, you'll have to use his world to fight over it in, since there's no PvP in yours.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities for persistent cross-world avatars.  Is it an idea whose moment has come?

YAY I WIN!!!!! Corp Por bitches! I'll never go to ze WUA Carebear Village MMO thing! ;)

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Sky
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Reply #514 on: September 19, 2007, 07:14:33 AM

There's always kill-stealing, training, resource domination...lots of ways to pvp in his carebear village.
Gutboy Barrelhouse
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Reply #515 on: September 19, 2007, 07:36:20 AM

How will you handle it when people want to drop in things like the SWG EMU or for that matter EQ, WoW  and the rest of the emulators?
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Reply #516 on: September 19, 2007, 07:49:29 AM

Raph.

Get better hosting.

Seriously.

It's embarrassing.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #517 on: September 19, 2007, 07:57:39 AM

There's always kill-stealing, training, resource domination...lots of ways to pvp in his carebear village.

I'll just give it utterly meaningless sport PVP.   :-D

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Tmon
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Reply #518 on: September 19, 2007, 07:58:44 AM

I hope the servers that actually host the games/content will be a bit more robust.
schild
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Reply #519 on: September 19, 2007, 08:02:19 AM

I don't even know what's going on there. The domain has GoDaddy's parked IP addresses. So they must just be forwarding the A record to wherever their server is. I assume it's local and behind a shitty office line (T1 or T3 or FIOS or something) or it's colocated elsewhere and is just a piece of shit. >_> It's annoying. I was trying to grab a screenshot to ask why their web developer compressed the shit out of the images to the point of artifacts.
tazelbain
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Reply #520 on: September 19, 2007, 08:08:05 AM

Meatplace reminds me of the next generation of BYOND.  It's a place where people (mostly kids) write little tile-based OG with funky semi-OO scripting language.   Based on that we know:  Most games are going to blantant rip off of established IP.  There will be more Naruto games than the number of shadow-clones Naruto can summon. The "Timmy stole my code and made a clone of my game!" drama will repeat endlessly.

Not to mention all the lessons from SL, Raph is charging directly into the battle for Intellectual Property and Digital Morality.

"Me am play gods"
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Reply #521 on: September 19, 2007, 08:26:09 AM

Digital Morality.

Now there's a useless term.
Pennilenko
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Reply #522 on: September 19, 2007, 08:47:03 AM

Digital Morality.

Now there's a useless term.

Will this digital morality effect my download speeds? :-D

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
tazelbain
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Reply #523 on: September 19, 2007, 08:50:46 AM

Well I can't think of way to describe the apparent prohibition on Age Play between adults except as an attempt at enforcing a digital morality. 

"Me am play gods"
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #524 on: September 19, 2007, 09:00:43 AM

I assume you're referring to that "pedoplay" guild banned from WoW. Blizzard runs a mainstream business, and allowing guilds whose charter incorporates talking about buggering little boys is bad for business. And before you say it, no, Second Life is not mainstream.

If you want to talk about that stuff, it really deserves its own thread.
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