Raph is no longer taunting us (Metaplace)

[tazelbain]

What does being mainstream have to do with which set of 1 and 0 are prohibited?

Anyway, I don't want to have "that" argument.  All I wanted to say is that Meatplace nature firmly puts them involved in "that" argument.

[Bunk]

I have to admit this has me interested. I'm the type of guy that buys every game that promises easy modding tools, gets pissed off at the lack of "easy" and goes on to trying to mod the next one. I usually keep playing the game however, because of all the othe more talented people out there making mods.

What I'm curious about, is your thoughts on issues that will come up with how the system gets used. Adult content? Use of copyrighted assets? Are you going to try to actually police everything that you host? And if you open source the hosting, is it just a free for all of "hey, we only made the tools, don't blame us"?

[sam, an eggplant]

OK.

And yes, of course you're right. Any title incorporating user-built content has to deal with this kind of issue. Not just the pedos but also racism, hate speech, slander, porno, copyright violations, etc.

[Krakrok]

To be fair Metaplace did get slashdotted. And you know it's going to be all about the copyright infringement. They'll get away with it the same way YouTube, and YTMND, Google, and everyone else does.

[schild]

Slashdotting doesn't mean shit anymore.

As for copyright infringement. Youtube doesn't get away with it. They remove stuff WHENEVER asked. YTMND falls under parody. All google does is search the internet. There is no real copyright infringement there. I suspect Metaplace will play the parody card.

[sam, an eggplant]

Methinks it would be difficult defending your use of an entire Jay-Z album as the soundtrack for your stats-heavy JRPG as "parody". Or embedding the latest episode of Lost in the wall in your incredibly realistic home theatre simulator. Etc. Remember that content creators can generate profit from their creations in metaspace.

[schild]

Yes, but it's not even a question. That falls into the "Hate the Player, Not the Game" Clause. I mean, it's not even worth discussing. I'd imagine the EULA for MeatSpace would protect Areae (lol, I said EULA). Facebook, Myspace, etc is nothing but a giant mess of preteens and camwhores and dramafags violating copyright law anyway. Meatspace will be nothing new there.

[sam, an eggplant]

But it is new, because they can profit from it. That's a whole new ballgame.

[Krakrok]

As for copyright infringement. Youtube doesn't get away with it. They remove stuff WHENEVER asked. YTMND falls under parody. All google does is search the internet. There is no real copyright infringement there. I suspect Metaplace will play the parody card.

YouTube has multiple lawsuits pending. They have a couple billion dollars set aside to massage away the complaints. The complete YTMND 'work' does fall under parody. However, I'm not so sure how celebrity photos plays into that (or any photo for that matter). The photographer owns the copyright in most instances and the YTMND 'works' aren't parodying the celebrity photo work itself in most cases. They are parodying the celebrity. Google does all kinds of stuff that is perceived to be copyright infringement by established industries including their book scanning program which they are being sued over, their news indexing which they are being sued over (and losing in Europe), their image search which they were sued over (and Google won those I think), and their advertising engine which they are being sued for trademark crap over (and Google is winning those as well).

If someone goes and makes an almost exact copy of PacMan w/ Metaplace or uses PacMan anywhere in it that isn't a parody Namco is going to come knocking. Especially since they have what I assume are licensed places like GameTap for PacMan. The end user is ultimately responsible for creating the infringing content but that doesn't mean Areae can't also be named in a suit.

It's just a cost of doing business.

[sam, an eggplant]

Very well said!

[taolurker]

Well, the copyright infringement issue should be something that Areae will protect against in their EULA, and I'm sure they'll be trying to monitor the usage and which things are created. The problem is where the "tween toolset" becomes something that kids do ignore contracts on. The EULA should protect Areae against anyone infringing with their creations, but it also doesn't mean that someone won't push limits someplace and also create just as problematic an issue from the ESRB, Media, whatnot.

If a "creation" is something with enough freedom, but yet has limits, then someone is gonna need a heavy hand on enforcement. Raph the dictator? Emporer Raph? Can I have a secret police uniform, or be KGB in your Communist state Raph?

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

[schild]

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

That's very kind of you but on the internet, you're supposed to prepare for the worst. For example, if I weren't at work, there'd be a rickroll link in this post.

[Morat20]

I have to admit this has me interested. I'm the type of guy that buys every game that promises easy modding tools, gets pissed off at the lack of "easy" and goes on to trying to mod the next one. I usually keep playing the game however, because of all the othe more talented people out there making mods.

What I'm curious about, is your thoughts on issues that will come up with how the system gets used. Adult content? Use of copyrighted assets? Are you going to try to actually police everything that you host? And if you open source the hosting, is it just a free for all of "hey, we only made the tools, don't blame us"?

I'm interested as well -- if the tools are right, it's something I could have a lot of fun with.

I admit a heavy modding community has kept alive a number of games well past their "sell by" dates, so I'm curious how a system that IS basically modding will work out in real life.

Raph's got a point on the builders -- you don't need that many builders, and you only need a relatively few talented ones, as long as you have some sort of built-in ratings system.

[SnakeCharmer]

Well, the copyright infringement issue should be something that Areae will protect against in their EULA, and I'm sure they'll be trying to monitor the usage and which things are created. The problem is where the "tween toolset" becomes something that kids do ignore contracts on. The EULA should protect Areae against anyone infringing with their creations, but it also doesn't mean that someone won't push limits someplace and also create just as problematic an issue from the ESRB, Media, whatnot.

If a "creation" is something with enough freedom, but yet has limits, then someone is gonna need a heavy hand on enforcement. Raph the dictator? Emporer Raph? Can I have a secret police uniform, or be KGB in your Communist state Raph?

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

If I paint a picture of Superman and try and sell it, DC isn't going to come after the makers of the paintbrush or the pencils.  They're going to come after me. 

How can/could Metaplace be held liable for copywrite infringement for someone else using their tools (the proverbial paintbrush) to copy <whatever>?

Or is this part of the forever grey area that is the internet that hasn't been fleshed out yet?

[Yoru]

Well, the copyright infringement issue should be something that Areae will protect against in their EULA, and I'm sure they'll be trying to monitor the usage and which things are created. The problem is where the "tween toolset" becomes something that kids do ignore contracts on. The EULA should protect Areae against anyone infringing with their creations, but it also doesn't mean that someone won't push limits someplace and also create just as problematic an issue from the ESRB, Media, whatnot.

If a "creation" is something with enough freedom, but yet has limits, then someone is gonna need a heavy hand on enforcement. Raph the dictator? Emporer Raph? Can I have a secret police uniform, or be KGB in your Communist state Raph?

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

If I paint a picture of Superman and try and sell it, DC isn't going to come after the makers of the paintbrush or the pencils.  They're going to come after me. 

How can/could Metaplace be held liable for copywrite infringement for someone else using their tools (the proverbial paintbrush) to copy <whatever>?

Or is this part of the forever grey area that is the internet that hasn't been fleshed out yet?

If it's being hosted on Areae's servers, they're the ones who are going to get the takedown notices. Same reason YouTube is in trouble - they didn't upload the infringing content, but they are technically distributing it to the public.

[sam, an eggplant]

It doesn't even matter if you actually host the material these days. If you provide any sort of mechanism for getting it, no matter how many places removed, you're vulnerable. That's how they took down napster. Napster didn't host shit.

[Slyfeind]

You're mad, Raph. Mad, I say. But yes, this is something I've been waiting for, too. And you're still making your sandbox worldie game thingie, so that's cool too.

[Raph]

Every asset is a link. Pac-Man is on YOUR host, not ours. "It works like the web" remember?

[Numtini]

So what exactly do you provide and where do you make money?

You've said that people can cash out and earn money, is there a common currency? What about copyrights--not the virtual items but copyright in the sense of code, graphic meshes, etc? Developers retain ownership?

And the ever elusive adult content question, so I create something really abhorrent, say Dolcett Kindergarden. It's private and all users are US adults where it would be legal. Are you going to allow that?

[Ixxit]

With Bittorrent, Kazaa, Limewire etc , isn't  the infringing file is on the user's host as well?  Or am I missing something?

[sam, an eggplant]

No, you're not missing anything. If metaspace indexes a game containing illegal or potentially infringing content, they can be held liable.

[taolurker]

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

That's very kind of you but on the internet, you're supposed to prepare for the worst. For example, if I weren't at work, there'd be a rickroll link in this post.

Um, they were just at Tech Crutch and Raph gave a demo to the BBC. I'd think you didn't expect anywhere near what you expected when something like this happens.

[HaemishM]

Stuff about Meatplace

Because it had to be said...


BETA PLZKTHX.

[Etro]

I'm curious about the 'stylesheets' from the bbc video, just how extensible/limited are these? Are you locked in to starting with a generic game genre stylesheet and then adapting it to your needs, or is it possible to go from scratch on something using only the underlying game mechanics/engine and no associated assets?

Also, because every asset is a URI, what happens if I make some amazing game and I don't want to share the source of my project? Could someone not simply find out where my files/assts/fitever are and simply "steal" them by nabbing the URI's?

oh and Haemish:
http://gigaom.com/2007/09/18/metaplace-unveiled-raph-koster/

Alpha testing begins now, starting with 50 volunteers. In later months, that will expand to 500, and by the time it goes to closed Beta by the end of the year, will have room for up to 5000, a community of early adopters which Areae will help teach to use the development tools.

[HaemishM]

I've already signed up for the Alpah on the Meatplace web site, I'm just busting Raph's balls.

[Yegolev]

I signed up as well.  Already my mind's eye sees a clone of Final Fight starring Pac-Man, except he has a huge cock.  I'm totally awesome.

[schild]

I'll play that. But only if it has ads for Poison brand fleshlights.




OK that was a terribly bizarre and obscure joke.

[Yegolev]

Yeah, I forgot about advertising completely.  Good call.

[Schazzwozzer]

So I've been a "custom content" artist for both NWN games and this is pretty intriguing.  I'm not familiar with these more obscure predecessors (BYUND), but I think if you look at build-your-own-world titles like NWN and Second Life, and consider how user-unfriendly they are, their success is pretty laudable.  I mean, they're both titles that essentially threw tools at you and expected you to figure out the rest.  I think there's a LOT of space for improvement on these formulas.

Of course, as a game artist, I'm particularly interested in this idea that an artist or content creator can profit off his or her work.  It certainly would sweeten what is otherwise a fairly thankless deal. 

At the VERY LEAST though, if this works as advertised, all the backseat MMO designers of the world will finally have an opportunity to find out why their skill-based, open-PvP, permadeath ideas actually don't work so well.

[tazelbain]

SO MeatSpace is just another piece of middle-ware not an end-to-end solution.  So kids aren't going to be slapping a new game together to play with their fiends.  I don't how this going to appeal to the myspace people.

[Furiously]

I'm really trying to figure out how this is different from what SL is heading toward...

[Krakrok]

They are all headed to the same place. Whoever pops the most viagra wins.

[sam, an eggplant]

I'm really trying to figure out how this is different from what SL is heading toward...

Coincidentally, that's what the bulk of Areola's press release covers. SL is a walled garden; you need to download their monolithic application, install it, create an account, sit down in front of your computer, and "get ready to play". Metaspace can be embedded into your myspace page, played on your cellphone, vista sidebar gadgets, etc. It isn't separate from the web, it doesn't require commitment to play, it's just another object on a webpage.

[Venkman]

And almost no matter what Metaplace does, the UI for "creation" is going to be a hell of a lot easier to use than SL and Multiverse. Sure this is by default of what appears to be a wizard-driven "game creation" system. But considering the most likely users of this system, that's exactly on target.

[Xanthippe]

I'm excited.  Sounds like something that my kids will figure out ways to use that will amaze me.