f13.net

Areae means “many places” in Latin. Depending on who you ask, you pronounce it “Airy-eh” or “Airy-eye” or “Area-ee”… well. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what it means: many places, many worlds.

Areae, Inc. is a company dedicated to taking the tired old virtual world and making it into something fresh and new. Something anyone can jump into. Something where anyone can find something fun to do or a game to play. Something where anyone can build their own place on the virtual frontier.

Feel free to wander around the site and learn about us. We’re hiring!

Areae, Inc. is a company dedicated to taking the tired old virtual world and making it into something fresh and new. Something anyone can jump into. Something where anyone can find something fun to do or a game to play. Something where anyone can build their own place on the virtual frontier.

Third Life.

Blah. What a day for my F13 email to go bust. Hey Raph, can you add my f13 email address to the mailing list? I love the smell of press releases in the morning.

As I said to Gamasutra or GameDaily, we have as many differences from SL as we do from EQ, honestly. :)

BTW, Gamasutra and GameDaily BIZ both have interviews and coverage.

I don't see any openings for 'Crotchety Old Fart' in the job listings... so I guess I am out of luck again.

Though that leaves just as many questions as there are answers, he concludes, "We're going to run quiet for a little while and finish building out the platform so we can actually start talking about what it is that we're going to put out there. I would guess that you'll be hearing from us again in three months or so."

SOE has apparently learned at the feet of the master. THey still like to throw out empty words and teasing, and then ignore you for a few month. DOn't get me wrong, if it's something Raph is in favor of, I will probably like it, but I hate to have smoke blown in my general direction. It's a mistake, IMHO, to talk about something you have no intention (or ability) to expound on. DOnt say *anything* until you can post screenshots, show skill-tree's (is applicable), distribute a theme song, demo vdeo... etc.

The worldy part of SWG was what attracted me at launch, and kept me in game for 2 years. It was the empty promises, over-stated goals, and general hot air that drove me away.... oh, and the fact they did as much to destroy the worldy/economic/crafting game as they could without actually removing the professions.

I'm going to pretend I never heard of this until I se something substantive. But my fingers will be crossed!

*edit*
Oh yeah, if you wanna hire me, I would be an excellent Designer, storyline architect, and Events coordinator. I'll work cheap too.

Is this the crucify Raph or praise Raph thread?  I get so confused..........

I'm going with Air-ee-oh-la.

I'm going with Air-ee-oh-la.

And the reason was to get people like to you say "maybe I'd like to work there."

For those of you who live near there or are willing to relocate how could it hurt to apply?

...in-game adds for penis enlargement (and crafting) are about only innovative thing about the title...

Go read the press releases page. :) No mailing list yet.

When did this turn into a "beg and carp for a job" thread?

Feel free to wander around the site and learn about us

So, I'll play.

Given the way the basic logo outline looks, you've read Linked (http://www.amazon.com/Linked-Everything-Connected-Else-Means/dp/0452284392/sr=1-1/qid=1166282901/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9579684-1426369?ie=UTF8&s=books) and liked a lot of it, which is good, because I think I read it based on your original recommendation.  You're going to try to break the story genre boundaries and avoid being seen as a Fantasy/Science Fiction/Modern Urban niche service, while catering to all those at once, and there will be dancing.

But I look at the logo, and all I think is, Whoville (http://www.amazon.com/How-Grinch-Stole-Christmas-Seuss/dp/0394800796/sr=1-1/qid=1166283138/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9579684-1426369?ie=UTF8&s=books). 

I would like to point out that they are actively accepting resumes.  For those of you who live near there or are willing to relocate how could it hurt to apply?

edit.  I would like to point out that this is an awesome opportunity.  How often do people get a shot at working with some of the forerunner of graphical MMO's?  Shit, wish I was not willing to relocate.  I would give it a shot otherwise!

-PHP is listed which would probably mean they are going with MySQL.

Young, hungry, idea-filled people with no experience this will attract.  That should be fun.

Nah, there's a lot of folk in the industry who still think Raph has a lot of Nifty Ideas(tm). I'd probably apply for something were I not already quite busy.

I thought php worked with MySQL?

Only quibbles I have are that PHP != mySQL, there's plenty of support for heavier dbs now. And the scripts listed aren't necessarily Eve-specific, those are just the new hotness scripting languages. Minus Lua, which may or may not be intentional.)

I like the thought of having one highly customized toon and living in a 90210 type place and having the ability to travel to westworld in the morning, medieval world in the evening it is intriguing.

I like the thought of having one highly customized toon and living in a 90210 type place and having the ability to travel to westworld in the morning, medieval world in the evening it is intriguing.

I am sadly a master of AJAX..which I'm almost embarrassed to admit because I hate it so intensly.

Lua could have been there. I dunno why it isn't, actually.

I predict 07 will be a very interesting year! :)~~

Up to you, Righ, we're all about the users. ;)

I only know enough of any programming language to screw things up, but I *can* write pretty well, and I love complex interactions. Add a dash of creativity, and I could make a good Story/Content guy. Did I mention that I'd work cheap? lol

Well, 2006 has sucked for the virtual-world gamer, and it would be nice to see a new face in town. Maybe a MySpace/Sims/Tycoon/BF2142/ATitD/EVE kind of game?

So...in other words, Second Life? Or am I missing something?

So...in other words, Second Life? Or am I missing something?

If all you care about are the visual trappings of such settings Second Life would support it. However my understanding of the Second Life scripting system, which granted is quite limited, is that you really can't create a full-blown RPG system within the game like you can with something like the LambdaMOO programming language. SL does support hit points and taking damage but that's about it. And "dying" always just teleports you to your home.

There's actually one or two RPGs that exist within SL.  One is called either DarkLife or DarkLight, but it's basically a fantasy setting.  It has classes and levels, IIRC.  I haven't personally messed with it, so I can't say for certain how complex it is, but I know that people had been working on various other projects with a similar goal as well. 

Interesting. Well then we'll just have to wait and see how the stuff Raph is working on is going to differ from SL.

If not that, just give me admin powers to your forums and I will rule with an iron fist.

No, No, he should work a deal with Schild to the forums hosted here! It'd be like every day is Festivus!

Only quibbles I have are that PHP != mySQL, there's plenty of support for heavier dbs now.

Ironically that is not a bad idea.  Be a good way for f13 to pull in some cash.  Heh, kinda like UO using stratics.  Though having a different domain name would probably be ideal.

Lua could have been there. I dunno why it isn't, actually.

I figure, someone who is badass is badass, and the language is a detail.

Oh, I don't think we intend to stack up heavy stuff. KISS is very much our motto. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to write our prototype all by myself. :)

Hey, I'm a game guy. And I have people who are waiting for the next Raph-worldy thing. I'm not going to ignore them.

Heh.
Nice fanboi petting in here Raph. Mentioning open jobs in here, gets the attention at least. I bet nobody on this site gets a job with you though.

Just like so many other talkative developers, I think you can talk the talk but not walk the walk. UO was made by many people, not just you. Star Wars Galaxies was UO in space with SW artwork, and it sucked. It had the most pointless and painful grinds I've ever seen, and I played EQ for years too. That's saying something.

Instead of pimping your site or your book or some magical game idea for fanbois to fawn over, how about proceeding on a game and coming back into the limelight. Let's see some action, and less talk. Years of pretending to know how to do it right on forums and dev lists must amount to something.

Personally I think the age of egotistical rockstar developers is over, but I could be wrong. I certainly dont think the age of MMO failures is over. So will you be like Tabula Rasa? Or will you actually get something shipped in this decade?

The market has changed a great amount since SWG first shipped. People are less tolerant of marginal results. What sounds good on paper is often not good in practice.

As much as I hate to say it, the guy is right. It's why I ragged on Bartle being involved. SW:G was a train wreck. It's put up or shutup time. Had I been Raph, I'd have said nothing and shown something amazing when I was > 50% done. But that's just me. Sometimes it's just too early for grassroots. Especially when your last house burned down from top to bottom.

Personally I think the age of egotistical rockstar developers is over, but I could be wrong.

I disagree. Bartles theories are well documented and it cannot hurt to have him as a consultant. He needs to recruit and probably has more people begging for jobs than he can deal with now due to his limited press release and limited website. Shit, they fully admit they are in infancy mode. His last house was Sony.

It was meant to burn.

Personally I think the age of egotistical rockstar developers is over, but I could be wrong.

The types of people that would be attracted to Bartles theories will not create anything I want to play. The types of investors attracted to Bartles ideas is not something I want to pay to play. See, here's the problem - the guy is a minor rockstar. People expect him to be Bartle. They will get money based on him and Raph. I'm ok with that, other than that money will expect them to be Bartle and Raph.

His last house wasn't Sony. It was SOE. Raph, arguably, built his own prison there. He was pushed into a position that did not result in him creating and ended up leaving. But he was pushed into that position because he was Raph Koster. Not becasue SW:G was a runaway success.
<praise>
Also, I'm sure he can recruit his own people. And you damn well know it.

Seriously, Raph change the company name.  It was a poor decision.

Also, the age of the rockstar developer isn't over until my fabulous game design career comes to fruition.  Otherwise, how am I going to get groupies?

Especially when your last house burned down from top to bottom.

Unusually poor taste comment?

As much as I hate to say it, the guy is right. It's why I ragged on Bartle being involved. SW:G was a train wreck. It's put up or shutup time. Had I been Raph, I'd have said nothing and shown something amazing when I was > 50% done. But that's just me. Sometimes it's just too early for grassroots. Especially when your last house burned down from top to bottom.

Ironwood, was the eyeballs because I didn't tote the company line of blaming Raph for all that is wrong in the world? If so, please note I'm not looking for a job with Areae.net. I have one I love already :)

<grumpy words>

Hello, I’m John, I’m the co-founder of Areae along with Raph.

Historically, I haven’t ventured out into the community much because honestly there are people better at this than I am. More frequently, I’m the guy behind the scenes making as much of a positive impact on the product or team as possible. I saw this thread and felt the need to jump in. Since I don’t do this very often, be patient with me for a bit as I give you a little background about me.

The things I consider myself good at include picking the right people for the right job, setting up the best environment in which a team can succeed, picking out industry trends for success, and when I’m directly managing a development team, I think I’m pretty good at making the right decisions that come up every day on implementation strategy and keeping a team on track.

I started in MMOs 15 years ago with a pay-for-play mud called Legends of Future Past. I joined the team about 6 months before launch, designed and programmed many of the game systems, and then helped launch and run the product. My next stop was Simutronics’ GemStone III, where I was a programmer and designer. I moved into producing, and my first game was DragonRealms. At the end of my stay with Simutronics, all of the development and live teams reported to me. After Simutronics I joined Outrage (maker of the Descent series of games), but a year later I realized my passion wasn’t just games – it is multiplayer games.

Soon after, Rich Vogel hired me to produce Star Wars Galaxies, which I was very excited to do. I’ll come back to some of the early days of the decision making on SWG in a bit, let’s skip over that for a moment. I ran the SWG team for the first 6 months after launch, the last publish that was still under me was player cities.

At the end of 03 I got hired to be the director of development for the SOE San Diego studio. This essentially made me the #2 guy, reporting to Rod Humble who ran the studio. A few weeks after I arrived, Gates of Discord shipped, which was very educational. :/ Rod (who, by the way, was great to work for) left later that year, and I took over running the studio as the VP of development, pretty much right before EQ2 launched. The last couple years I’ve been running the San Diego studio, up until a couple weeks ago when I had the opportunity to join Raph.

I’ve had my share of successes and failures at SOE. Things I am proud of include choosing Scott Hartsman to run EQ2, and I think he’s done a spectacular job. I’ll also take credit for pushing hard within SOE for longer development cycles and the first sign of that successful strategy is with the quality of Echoes of Faydwer.

Sometimes the studio head job was defined by the marriage of business strategy and game design. This year, the San Diego studio (which is responsible for the live support for PlanetSide), introduced the recruits program – essentially making the game free for new players. It was highly controversial internally, but in retrospect it was a very successful way to breathe some new vitality into the game and the result was quite positive for both the community and the company – the best kind of win.

Big parts of that job included recognizing what you are good at, more importantly, recognizing what you are bad at, and most importantly, picking the right people for the job. My #2 guy became Nick Beliaeff, who did a spectacular job with the console development teams. While Untold Legends had mediocre reviews on the PSP launch, it had spectacular sales. Though Field Commander had great reviews a year later on the PSP, it didn’t sell as well. I count all of these things as successes at SOE.

I’ve also had my failures. Though I’m proud of what we were able to accomplish on Star Wars Galaxies, I think it’s fair to say everyone wanted a better product. In hindsight, the first questions are on the choice of a virtual world for the Star Wars License, and the time period within the fiction we chose. In order to understand the decisions you need to put yourself in the shoes of the people making them at the time that they made it.

SOE had EQ (the best dungeon crawl at the time), and development teams for PlanetSide (a first person shooter), EQ2, and Sovereign (RTS). With SWG, SOE specifically did not want another game with the same style of gameplay as EQ, Planetside, or Sovereign. We chose a virtual world – the most successful one to date was UO and we had the team of people who worked on UO who were assigned to build the game. SOE didn’t have a virtual world, nor was it in the process of building one. It “fit” within the product strategy, even if in hindsight it may not have fit with the license. At the time, I supported this decision, and our tagline became “live in the Star Wars universe”.

Similarly, Lucas Arts had their own requirements – because the first three movies hadn’t been made or released yet, the only time period we could choose was the “classic” movies, or episodes 4, 5, and 6. Because we wanted the greatest access to the most Star Wars characters (most of them were still alive), we chose between episodes 4 and 5.

In hindsight, there’s a lot of ground-level decisions the team could revisit. Did we make a decent virtual world? Eventually, there were elements of our virtual world that I was quite proud of. Was Star Wars a good fit for that type of game? Honestly, “living in the Star Wars universe” in a way that could begin to meet the community expectation turned out to be a lot harder than any of us thought.

So that's a lot of time to spend talking about hard lessons. One thing that most people would agree is that while Raph may not be the guy to build what people expect to be an adventure MMO, his drive and desire is virtual worlds, and to date, he’s worked on some of the most successful virtual worlds that have been made.

What we're doing, bluntly, probably isn't going to be a huge draw for many of the people reading this board. But it's obvious that at least a few people have some curiosity. Letting you know a little bit about who we are, and how it related to some of the things you're already thinking, seemed like the right thing to do.

If you made it this far, thanks for your time,


John
Areae, Inc.

The co-founder made this post over at Fires of Heaven.


Why tell us about all this. Why come here and pretend that you want to hire people, when you clearly have more than enough contacts and friends with experience?

Stop telling the fanbois about yourselves, and go make a game. Talk through your actions.
My bet is you never ship a game. Starting off on the wrong foot already. You are already more interested in the wrong things to get it done. Namely, being in the public eye before you have anything worth talking about.

Why would FoH get the attention of a company not making a game for them (going by the descriptions at Areae)? Has FoH become more broad than just end-game raiding in diku-like games? As in, should I bother stopping by there?

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Welcome to our newest member, areyouserious

Their in-game communties don't implode either. They actually....Do things.

I think we represent the solo mindset more.

So it's a fuckload bigger.  And I think they probably have a higher ratio of people who actually pay subscription fees.  It's pretty WoW/EQ2 focused, but there's some Eve action over there too.  I like it here better, but I post over there sometimes.

So it's a fuckload bigger.  And I think they probably have a higher ratio of people who actually pay subscription fees. 

There is a subscription option for f13?  Do I get a special pet?

SOE had EQ (the best dungeon crawl at the time), and development teams for PlanetSide (a first person shooter), EQ2, and Sovereign (RTS). With SWG, SOE specifically did not want another game with the same style of gameplay as EQ, Planetside, or Sovereign. We chose a virtual world – the most successful one to date was UO and we had the team of people who worked on UO who were assigned to build the game. SOE didn’t have a virtual world, nor was it in the process of building one. It “fit” within the product strategy, even if in hindsight it may not have fit with the license. At the time, I supported this decision, and our tagline became “live in the Star Wars universe”.

The special pet was preorder only.

The special pet was preorder only.

So, all bark and no bite of course assumes that the two bites I took somehow don't count. Which is classic "but what have you one for me lately?" And that's just how it goes.

Stuff.

UO was ahead of it's time, we should have worked up to it, not down from it.  Can I kill and loot people in this new game, pickpocket them, con them?  Doubt it, those things affect other people and we aren't allowed to do that anymore, unless it's in space with excel running.

I don't know how you guys can be so hard on Raph.  Short of being independently wealthy, project leadership involves LOTS OF COMPROMISES.  Compromises required to appease the money people.  Compromises to keep employees on task.  I can't even beging to fathom the number of limitations that get placed on the creative element in any project due to overhead, implementation costs, and deadlines.

That's called living in the real world, and it's not an excuse to put out bad product.  I have to compromise all the time at my job; I'm sure most people do.  Yet, if I put out the legal equivalent of SWG, I wouldn't just get fired--I'd get sued for malpractice and possibly disbarred.  

They are the Bizarro F13.

UO was 1997. You are right, it doesnt count any more. Great game it was, but 10 years ago. It's a new MMO world. Also you weren't the only one to work on it. Don't claim individual credit for a team project.

SWG sucked. Nuff said there.

Taking credit for the good of a project is easy, even when there is very little good there. If you are going to be the one to step out in the limelight and pimp yourself all the time, then you should be willing to take the negative hits as well. So yes, it IS your fault for the bad things in those games. Or is it just the good things that you touched?

Does Raph have experience? Sure! Has he worked on games that still exist? Sure!

Now take all of this self professed experience and knowledge and make something that doesnt suck. All without so much self-fluffing that you seem to do on fanboi forums. I'll be tickled pink if you ship something decent. I'm doubtful as hell, but I'll be glad.

Several hundred thousand people bought the product and were empowered with the ability to cancel rather than bitch.  Let's not forget that the MMOG community tends to make themselves into victims rather than pull the plug and vote with their wallet.

UO is not only still online, it is turning a profit.  That is NOT so yesterday, it is cold hard fact. 

Your blatant trolling and naive attitude suggest you need to work on critical thinking. 

<words>

Darniaq,

Most people who fail don't go around telling people how to make games and how we're in the wrong mindset and write books about it. I'm not saying Raph is a failure. I'm just saying that up until Right Now he's been all barK and no bite. So when I say it's put up or shutup time - that's where I'm coming from.

I think your like for Raph is distorting your critical analysis of TehLurker's post (if he had been funnier, he would have called himself "TehLurker"... cause it's funny dammit!).  It's hard-hitting.  It's angry.  It's also alittle unfair (I don't recall ever reading Raph claiming sole credit for UO, or only the good parts of SWG).  I wouldn't describe it as a troll.  He's saying, "it's time to stop talking and start delivering".  How is that not in the spirit of f13?  Just because you disagree with him, or think he's being overly critical, doesn't de facto make it a troll post.

Big Tobacco is a business that has a large number of unhappy customers.  I'd say the gambling industry also has a fairly large number of customers that are less then satisfied.  A bit creepy to think that the MMO industry is in that league, now that I mention it.  (note: I'm not claiming that MMO games are addictive)

You can call me a fanboi, but I think if anyone is currently poised to pull in the 6 million sub market it is Areola, or whatever name it is.  In 2 years (tops, depending on how streamlined the dev cycle is). 

edit - Not sure, but I get the feeling that TheLurker is a regular f13 poster of some sort. Not anyone specific, but it's just a feeling I have. IPs are easy enough to change, after all.

There's two parts to SWG: what it was supposed to be and what it turned out to be. Vision and Execution. Most of what was wrong was Execution. Now, I do think the Vision was niche in concept, but it's the Execution that was the major cf, and Raph had little to do with that part directly.

I have a love/hate relationship with Raph.  On one hand, he was behind Ultima Online.  (UO forevar!)  On the other hand, he fucked around endlessly playing social engineer while pLaTeDeWd & B0N3D00D raped the game for fethers and drove it's reputation into the shitter.

Hate....boi?

There's two parts to SWG: what it was supposed to be and what it turned out to be. Vision and Execution. Most of what was wrong was Execution. Now, I do think the Vision was niche in concept, but it's the Execution that was the major cf, and Raph had little to do with that part directly.

Basically: is he right?

That is what this is about in my opinion. It's not about delivering a single game. It's about building a functional proof of a long-building vision, and assessing whether it is right.

It grates me because the attack was unfounded and asanine.  Schild did a much better job of throwing down the gauntlet. 

All Raph did was form a company.  Sheesh.

I disagree with you here on swg , because you cannot honestly , as a player , know the distinction between vision and execution on the release version of swg.

How do you propose we measure that?

I disagree with you here on swg , because you cannot honestly , as a player , know the distinction between vision and execution on the release version of swg.

Actually, we know a lot about Areae. I don't want to get into it, but from Raph's book, his ramblings about social spaces, and his grassroots campaign for both employees and press - well, you can read into it.

The biggest problem with Raph's designs is that people are generally a bunch of fucking douchebags. Mmo players can't have nice things.

Wouldn't it be ironic if after all this time, Raph decides that he needs public forums, knows that they will be hell on wheels to moderate, and therefore offers all f13 mods the job, at salaries you can't ignore.

Rod Serling comes out from behind a pile of pizza boxes and beer cans, "The F13 staff, once gadflies of the MMO industry, now forced to moderate an unending SWG thread in the Twilight Zone."

Wouldn't it be ironic if after all this time, Raph decides that he needs public forums, knows that they will be hell on wheels to moderate, and therefore offers all f13 mods the job, at salaries you can't ignore.

Rod Serling comes out from behind a pile of pizza boxes and beer cans, "The F13 staff, once gadflies of the MMO industry, now forced to moderate an unending SWG thread in the Twilight Zone."

Douchebaggery in VW can be greatly reduced by putting the carrots in different places.

Did you just call roleplayers griefing douchebags who don't play the game?

Did you just call roleplayers griefing douchebags who don't play the game?

Are you talking about having sex in an uncomfortable place?

What continues to taunt me is that I have yet to see an idea that Raph has talked about actually succesfully and properly implemented in a game.

"We're not talking about the business model, but again there we're also inspired by the web, web 2.0, user participation, all of that sort of thing... I think it's fair to say that we won't be following the path of the straight-up mainstream CD ROM MMOs,"

Which part of this quote didn't you understand? I doubt there will even be a box for you to buy.

Show me that your fanboi petting isn't just for personal ego, but that you really do have ideas that will work in practice IN TODAYS MMO MARKET.

SOE specifically did not want another game with the same style of gameplay as EQ, Planetside, or Sovereign. We chose a virtual world – the most successful one to date was UO and we had the team of people who worked on UO who were assigned to build the game. SOE didn’t have a virtual world, nor was it in the process of building one. It “fit” within the product strategy, even if in hindsight it may not have fit with the license. At the time, I supported this decision, and our tagline became “live in the Star Wars universe”.

That has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Thanks anyway.

Actually, we know a lot about Areae. I don't want to get into it, but from Raph's book, his ramblings about social spaces, and his grassroots campaign for both employees and press - well, you can read into it.

Here's to hoping he doesn't have an official forum. Man, that would be a fucking mistake. Between his supporters and the people who will register just to talk about SW:G, whew, I wouldn't want to set foot in there. It's bad enough that every time crafting, economics, or Raph gets mentioned ANYWHERE (including here), the thread becomes Just Another SWG thread. I suppose it's unavoidable though.

Which part of this quote didn't you understand? I doubt there will even be a box for you to buy.

Raph: My startup is funded. It is not funded by anything in the video game industry. It will not have a subscription fee and it will not come on a CD.

Isn’t the point of Areae to work in TOMORROWS MMO market? We have already been there and done that in today’s market. That’s where all the theory comes in, as a framework for trying something new. Theory is one way of connecting past learning to future action. And Raph at least has some theory beyond “Make another WoW, but with playable dragons”.

What continues to taunt me is that I have yet to see an idea that Raph has talked about actually succesfully and properly implemented in a game.

I'm still trying to figure out where you all are getting the idea they're building a game in any way shape or form. 

I'm still trying to figure out where you all are getting the idea they're building a game in any way shape or form. 

Hey, I'm a game guy. And I have people who are waiting for the next Raph-worldy thing. I'm not going to ignore them.

Key for whom ?

Isn’t the point of Areae to work in TOMORROWS MMO market? 

As for the SWG thing, I think the critical point has already been made by co-founder John:

 
In one hand they had a round peg, the Star Wars license.  In the other, a square hole, room in the product lineup for a virtual world type product. Someone at a high level decided to hammer the round peg into the square hole. Breakages ensued.

Its good to see Raph picking himself up and trying again.

Well read one post up: "people who are waiting for the next Raph-worldy thing."

I guess that is not you huh?

<words>

Which OMG EVIL SUIT OPPRESSING THE POOR LITTLE JESUS DEVELOPER MAN said, "you know what would be a great idea for this game.  HAM.  You know, if it takes 10 shots of a rifle to kill something, and it takes 10 shots of a pistol to kill something, why not make it take 10 shots of the rifle AND 10 shots of the pistol to kill it if a rifleman and a pistoleer group up!  Because, as everyone knows, the real problem with getting shot by a laser rifle is that you can't do calculus as quickly, and the problem with getting shot by a pistol is that you gradually lose your ability to perform ballet.  So they are really hitting totally different pools!."

Bingo. You win.

No, I dont hate Raph.

Bottom line: Show us you can walk the walk, and not just talk the talk. If it is an awesome game, I will actually buy it. So there Raph, you have a potential customer. Show me through action, because ideas and talk are both cheap. Show me it doesnt just look good on paper, but will actually work.

Show me that your fanboi petting isn't just for personal ego, but that you really do have ideas that will work in practice IN TODAYS MMO MARKET.

Which OMG EVIL SUIT OPPRESSING THE POOR LITTLE JESUS DEVELOPER MAN said, "you know what would be a great idea for this game.  HAM.  You know, if it takes 10 shots of a rifle to kill something, and it takes 10 shots of a pistol to kill something, why not make it take 10 shots of the rifle AND 10 shots of the pistol to kill it if a rifleman and a pistoleer group up!  Because, as everyone knows, the real problem with getting shot by a laser rifle is that you can't do calculus as quickly, and the problem with getting shot by a pistol is that you gradually lose your ability to perform ballet.  So they are really hitting totally different pools!."

Because that doesn't sound like "evil suit" logic to me.  Suits do stupid things, but they don't do "any mildly retarded 7 year old would laugh out loud at this idea" stupid.  It sounds a whole hell of a lot more like "hey, the guys at Mud-Dev will FURIOUSLY circle-jerk over this, because even though it sucks, everyone knows it sucks, and frankly even my pet monkey with Alzheimer's could come up with a better idea, it's OMG INNOVATIVE and, while it's strictly inferior to everything that came before it, everything that came before was not created by me!  Fuck my players, it's all about me getting props from guys who made 17-person MUDs in 1990."

SWG reeks of a project with not enough involvement from suits, not too much involvement.

It has EVERYTHING to do with what EVERYONE's been talking about.

They dont have to reinvent the wheel, and going into it with that mindset doesnt really equal "success in today's MMO market". Look at how different WoW is from EQ. It's actually not all that different in many points, but it is in ENOUGH. And those points are done really well.

Perhaps the most mindlessly content-free PR shit I've heard outside a Dilbert strip.  I hope you are getting paid for that.

Which OMG EVIL SUIT OPPRESSING THE POOR LITTLE JESUS DEVELOPER MAN said, "you know what would be a great idea for this game.  HAM.

Remember, at that time, the tech for MMOFPS at SOE was basically entirely speculative.

There are so many undercurrents in this thread that I hardly know where to respond.

Once again this is an evaluation of the execution of a concept, not the vision behind it. We don't know if a HAM type system could have worked because the only thing we have to evaluate is the one we played. That's certainly a valid reference. After all, it is "proof in seeing". It's also bad science.

WoW has done it with pure caster classes. As a pure caster, I'm useless if I can't cast spells. Silence, Counterspell and Fear spells prevent spellcasting temporarily (M). Viper Sting and Mana Drain drain my mana permanently (A). And I can be plain old killed (H).

SWG was a fun little gem that was insanely flawed.  I spent a good four months really digging the game, probably a good portion of the charm was the fact it was not about elves.  The ability to see Sandmen and Stormtroopers was great, but the underlying mechanics drove a white hot poker in my eye.

Anyway, my point really boils down to exactly what the hell are MMORG's not doing?  What do we not have in EQ, DAOC, SWG, WOW, or EVE.  Has anyone ever whiteboarded that?  Raph seems to favor that type of thought, just wondering if anyone that might actually be able to touch the reins of the game design has purposly looked at what is Not in a game, you know.. outside of the fun...

So what do we want? Don't nobody say "fun game" because that's the most retarded answer ever, and we all know better.

Ah, OK. So the Planetside tech at the time was considered too risky to carry the weight of the expensive SW license. I can see that.

We do know it could have worked, because
it's an idea, and ideas are perfect until realized, and
WoW has done it with pure caster classes. As a pure caster, I'm useless if I can't cast spells. Silence, Counterspell and Fear spells prevent spellcasting temporarily (M). Viper Sting and Mana Drain drain my mana permanently (A). And I can be plain old killed (H).

So what do we want? Don't nobody say "fun game" because that's the most retarded answer ever, and we all know better. (Personally, I want a game world where I can be a rock-n-roll star by day, then by night run out of the concert hall with an automatic-fire laser rifle and kill monsters. But there hasn't been that kind of game for a few years now....)

I'm a WoW caster. And an Engineer. No, I won't win fights if I'm Silenced or Viper Stung. But I'm not without options while I'm going down.

Saying that the design has failed them now is a bit obvious because the NGE was awful.  But that doesn't mean that the original planned design failed them, since that's not anything near what we're looking at.

I fall along the simulationist-gamist axis, primarily. From a thousand-yard perspective, I'd like success to be more a measure of utilizing wit, cunning, resourcefulness, inventiveness, analysis and memory to a significantly greater degree than Dinggratz Diku gameplay. To paraphrase Schild, I don't want to make 5,000 chicken fajitas. Internally-consistent, dynamic game systems - preferably simulationally-based - that are interesting to interact with, pick apart and master. I hesitate to use the phrase "worldy game" because invoking virtual worlds brings rather too much baggage with it.

And if code is a commodity then the only thing that can fail is design.

And that's because WoW did HAM right. They could do it because their design didn't call for three bars for each player, instead HAM-like aspects emerged after they had repeated 'tweak the design-tweak the code' over and over.


It failed precisely because HAM was, at launch, nowhere near what it should have been. Ergo, it was unimplementable with the team they had at the time.

The outsourcing of programming jobs to India is perhaps the clearest indication that code is fast becoming a commodity. And if code is a commodity then the only thing that can fail is design.

And that's because WoW did HAM right. They could do it because their design didn't call for three bars for each player, instead HAM-like aspects emerged after they had repeated 'tweak the design-tweak the code' over and over.

And set aside SWG for a sec. We know what was wrong with that :)

We do? Could someone just briefly review it for me.

I'm confused. I don't think the 9-bar system of SWG is comparable to the two-bar of WoW. And, WoW's HP and mana bar is a convention as old as convention itself. So, besides the progressive Rage bar and stacking Action Points of WoW, what did WoW do right that hadn't been done right in countless iterations before them and therefore much easier to understand, reference, and design?

Couldn't dismember Ewoks.

Want to take a stab at your Fajitas comment.. one thing I liked about the original structure of Alterac Valley was the mechanism for collecting ram pelts to get the wolf riders (been a while, but I think that is right).  I would not mind having to craft x iron swords if part of the turn in would be to see the next set of npc guards walk out with those swords.  Hell, have it so no guards would spawn unless the PC community got all the peices in play.  I would love to see the "contested" areas with deformable terrain and the ability to build towns and boarder posts.  The staticness of the world is something that kills my sense of immersion.  The biggest pain in the butt about most of the crafting is no real game impact.  What, maybe 5% of what is crafted is viable?  I want character progression, but I don't want levels.  Is it possible to build a model that allows you to enter the game with a veteran level character instead of a babe fresh from the tit?

I need to reiterate my earlier point, only because it rankles me when discussions about one concept can't be disassociated from another concept if there's any whatsoever overlap.

Once again this is an evaluation of the execution of a concept, not the vision behind it. We don't know if a HAM type system could have worked because the only thing we have to evaluate is the one we played. That's certainly a valid reference. After all, it is "proof in seeing". It's also bad science.

I'm trying to piece together from Raph's comments how the HAM should have played if it was just as he wanted, and that's where I end up.

The giant buffs were not part of the original design. In fact, the whole system was premised on the notion that no player got to exceed a certain amount of H, A, or M. All the creatures and content were supposed to be balanced off this. The buffs ended up changing this max by 300%, which is a huge part of why everything in the game became trivial.

I've said this before, but you were never supposed to die from getting hit in HAM. In the original design, you were supposed to die only from a deathblow while incapacitated, and that was supposed to happen because of the accumulation of wounds. HAM was supposed to regen fast -- really fast. When you got hit, it would be a momentary issue -- heck, you'd expect to get incapped often, too, but not necessarily die. One of these days, I should build a little HAM simulator the way I wanted it to work...

You would attack different pools in a group because that curtailed what the target could do TO you. If you saw they were a rifleman who needed mind for careful aims, you disrupted that capability by attacking his Mind. But he'd probably be more vulnerable to incap via a different pool (which might vary depending on his specific stats). The real goal would be to stack up wounds on him, which would then cause more and more frequent incaps until you could execute a deathblow. This is why deathblows were so limited in range

The range on weapons was not how it was designed. We ended up there because of technical limits that were imposed late in the process (pretty much the same limits that greatly curtailed the AI behaviors -- a limit on the range of "awake" world surrounding a player). It's important to realize that SWG did NOT intend to follow the basic tank/nuker/healer model, but instead drew its inspiration for ranged combat more from small arms tactics: close fighters, ranged covering fire, snipers, and so

There is no such thing as a mindpool. This isn't Scanners.

From a thousand-yard perspective, I'd like success to be more a measure of utilizing wit, cunning, resourcefulness, inventiveness, analysis and memory to a significantly greater degree than Dinggratz Diku gameplay.

There weren't originally supposed to be unhealable pools, either. :P I love how we're still discussing HAM all these years later...!

Besides, sharpshooters and snipers generally do not target heads anyways.

Personally, I like an over complex MMORPG game mechanic.  I figure if you're going to spend 200+ hours playing a game, it might as well be tough enough to be worth learning.  So, looking at what Raph's suggesting above, I'm like, "Yeah, that would have been a pretty hearty meal... but what about the second course?"

the HAM system was one of things I was shocked got through the sanity checking stage the same way not having space battles in at launch did.

So areola is going to be mmofpsrpg?

There weren't originally supposed to be unhealable pools, either. :P I love how we're still discussing HAM all these years later...!

OK, so let's take a step back. Health and mana are indeed not broken. But they aren't entirely suitable for a sci-fi game either. After all, in a sci-fi game, you are hopefully having a variety of activities, some based on brawn and some based on intelligence, and some based on agility, and so on. Spending mana for a thief move, or rage for a mage ability, would be equally silly. Especially when we have abilities we want to have that range from hacking to breaking doors to walking balance beams (yeah, none of these showed up. But that's what you want the system for).

Given the classless system, we couldn't really hide any of them. This is also the single biggest weakness of the HAM system -- not that pools were attackable or spendable (which is again, just a mana drain sort of effect, or a "weaken your shields when you fire" sort of effect) but rather that there's just too many numbers involved.

If I were doing it today, given all the critiques, I probably would have maintained the idea of three manas, but split off the health on top of them. I believe one of the combat revisions proposed this. The health bar would be the only one you would show all the time. The mana bars would still be there, but be invisible most of the time. I bet you could cue people with a bar that shows only when you are using your special -- say you "load up" a mind-based ability, like sniping. THEN a focus meter shows up on your screen. And damage to your focus or your strength could be indicated ojnly as it happened, or only when you are at critical level, or something. Then a lot of the confusion might die off.

And that's before we get to wounds. Wounds being separate on all three bars (think concussion, broken limb, blood loss) is almost certainly overkill.

And um, apparently Christian married Satan at the end of Moulin Rouge, and Jesus presided over the ceremony.

I love how we're still discussing HAM all these years later...!

Yeah, about that. You bring up UO every so often as a positive point to your portfolio. Anything that comes after that is fair game then, positive or negative. It is easy to mention the good, and then cry foul on the bad. Good old internet.

Ham and nipples, mmm mmm good.

3 bars was too simplistic. I say we should try for 12 bars. Then when people gripe about it, they'd have the 12 bar blues.

Firstly, it was my idea.
Secondly, you forgot the nipple bar.
Thirdly, Scott Weiland? Oh fuck no. Muddy Waters just rolled in the grave. (also: good call by Stray)

(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/bunny.gif)
(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/chest.gif)

It's a little hare on your chest.   :oops:

pure awesome

Just in case anyone thought Raph was just being sarcastic (http://hosted.whalebait.com/userfiles/ctraid.jpg)  :-D

Healers are the only ones required to have that much data onscreen - 40 folks health bars.  That particular healer apparently doesn't know how to use his mods well at all, as I had plenty of realestate when playing a priest.    There's also better mods out there than CTRaid these days.

Just in case anyone thought Raph was just being sarcastic (http://hosted.whalebait.com/userfiles/ctraid.jpg)  :-D

I had the better screenshot (http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/storeroom/wow-repository/priestui.jpg).

Once those unnecessary chat windows are eliminated, it's all that big raid block, really.  I'd almost go so far as to say that it proves raids are bad gameplay by GUI limitation... but I suppose that's just a matter of optimization. 

For example, have a raid window where nobody's health bar shows up unless they're injured.  Yeah, AOE would screw that up... maybe just prioritize most damaged at the top of the window.  Or would that make gameplay too simple? 

Bah, this line of thinking is why the GUI is the game.

As it stands in most raiding MMOs currently, you don't play the game, you play the UI.

If you want achievement, go achieve somewhere where it actually matters in life.

... and people find that "fun"?  I'm dumbfounded. 

... and people find that "fun"?  I'm dumbfounded. 

This is an old screenshot of my UI - it's changed since the Before the Storm patch (mainly Healer's Assist and Decursive has been replaced with Clique and Grid), but it's the same basic idea. I had all the windows popped out to show someone how it looked. Also, I'm wearing Tier 3 now, blah blah, e-peen, etc.

It's all in the same game. DAoC has these parts to. Are you RvRing only because every second of every day is only about the momentary fun you are having?

For the record, my comment was more one of being amazed that people feel so much satisfaction in obtaining items that they are willing to endure hours of staring at a UI pressing a heal button when needed.  Different strokes for different folks.

I never mentioned 'fun' anywhere. Because it's not.

I'm not currently raiding anymore, really. Not to say I don't like playing healers, but I really can't think of another mechanic to keep a large amount of people healed, other then a clunky UI.

If you are after semantics, DAoC RvR offers a diversity in abilities through advancement rather than improvement in my gear. While both are advancement paths, I find one that offers a greater character diversification superior to one that offers me more loot. I'm not really interested in loot beyond getting enough to allow me to compete adequately in pvp. Fortunately the loot in DAoC I use is mostly player-crafted so I don't have to obtain much through PvE (I actually just do what I can to obtain cash and buy what I need, further reducing the need to raid for gear).

For the record, my comment was more one of being amazed that people feel so much satisfaction in obtaining items that they are willing to endure hours of staring at a UI pressing a heal button when needed. Different strokes for different folks.

Um.

Your wee gauntlet glows blue.

Oh and my advice for anyone that wants to get better at any game out there.... get a nostromo (http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=157024).

Jeez guys, can't we get back to Raph bashing already?

I don't know, there's something perversely funny about a thread ostensibly about Raph's new VW turning into a discussion of hardcore WoW PVP/Raid UIs.

Um.

Your wee gauntlet glows blue.

Oh, that thing. Bah. I'm no longer impressed as much. But I'll still try this to see if it gives me a timing advantage. It certainly beats spamming the TAB key, particularly once that shammy has their 57 totems out (I so long for a mod that would ignore those as valid targets... I prefer just AOEing those things)

Totems are immune to AoEs.

I CALL SHENANIGANS.

I just wish name plates would grey out or something when they're out of spell range or something.

Totems are immune to AoEs.

I CALL SHENANIGANS.

Well crap. That sure explains my recent sessions. I took about a year off from PvP, and honestly haven't really seen that many Shamans in my battlegroup (10) of late. Mostly Hunters and Warlocks :P

So thanks for letting me know. No more thinking I'll just Arc Explode those totems then.

As an aside, I've found the only way I really can take down a Shaman is if I can sucker punch them with a crit'ing stunning flaming thing before they get their totems out :) Or maybe I just suck. Not sure yet. Only been really PvPing since 2.0.

How bizarre.  Your link keeps sending me to a very strange place.  You may want to check it. 

I did like the UI customization of SB. Lots of tear-off goodness. My own looked like this (http://tinyurl.com/yndmpw). Can't remember if that was towards the peak of my play or the end.

I like the trend of extensible/moddable UI, but I don't like that all of that happens outside the core game. It allows devs to excuse hastily-considered UI choices because they know the players will fix whatever needs fixing anyway. I prefer ingame customization.

Though SB was confusing for the uninitiated, as was UO and as is EQ2.

How bizarre.  Your link keeps sending me to a very strange place.  You may want to check it. 

Did you get sent to WW too ??

Was it a cave on a boat?

One demerit for not spelling it "steak" to Sky!

When the unexpected becomes the expected, the expected is unexpected.

*NECROPOST*

According to the Areae website (http://www.areae.net/), they will be unveiling new info about what they've been working on tomorrow at Techcrunch 40 (http://www.techcrunch20.com/2007/index.php). 

This (http://www.metaplace.com/) is listed as their new website.

Let the speculation resume at your leisure.

Metaplace is (IMO) a bad name though.  Way too nerdy.  The people that it is for are going to want a 'fun' name.  Metaplace?  Not fun.

Remember, it's not for you.

Who is it for?

I'm guessing this will be some sort of minigame aggregator, cutesy avatars in shared spaces, voicechat everywhere, and chock full of web 2.0/myspace community features like videos, photos, lists of favorite bands, etc. The product itself will be more of a light frontend for easy integration and extension than an actual game in of itself. The games will be firstparty to start off, and then (they hope) third party as time passes and they transition more into benevolent publishers than developers. And all the content and the framework itself will be downloadable and when possible streamed live, with no box in stores. Oh, and ESRB rated "T" for teen.

Anyone beat that raphtopian fantasy?

You know what else has a really bad name? Kongregate.

I assumed he was making a funny.

If not: http://kongregate.com/pages/about

OH WAIT, great name for a Web 2.0 aggregate game site: PopClap

Oh yeah, and achievements. It'll have tons of XBL-like achievements and scores to compete with your friends, that can only be gained by purchasing additional games through not-so-microtransactions by spending raphbucks. Each raphbuck will cost US$0.3744, with minor discounts in packs of R$100.

Oh, never mind. Taunt, taunt taunt.

Raph has become the aggro tank of former MMO devs?

I support Schild being Raptor Fucking Jesus. (http://sweetraptorjesus2.ytmnd.com/)

That would be the Smuggler Raptor Fucking Jesus, pew pew pew.

f13: One day somebody's going to have a tool where anybody can pop out a Shockwave game and --

Raph: I REALLY agree with you!

f13: Maybe [you're] even doing it!

Raph: ...

Well I was dead on with the web 2.0/myspace/teen stuff, but wrong about the business model. It's not entirely clear how they plan to monetize the service when it's simply embedded in a facebook page, a community not under their control. They certainly can't charge subscription fees. I guess we'll hear something about that at 7.

Areae's Metaplace platform wants to revolutionize the virtual worlds space.

http://www.crunchbase.com/company/areae

Overview

Areae's Metaplace platform wants to revolutionize the virtual worlds space. Their platform will provide an open, easy-to-use interface which will allow users to create virtual worlds that can run anywhere. Metaplace-created virtual worlds will be robust with users being able to play games, socialize, create content and conduct commerce.

Most virtual worlds are walled gardens making it hard to get data in and out of the worlds. Metaplace-created virtual worlds can be embedded into your Facebook page, MySpace page, or your own blog via a flash-based client widget. Every world is indexed, tagged and rated by users on the Metaplace portal, so virtual worlds in the Metaplace network can be easily linked together.

(http://images.crunchbase.com/fileupload/product_screenshot/838_metaplace%20scrnsht.jpg)

MetaPlace

Product URL: http://www.metaplace.com
Overview

The Metaplace network links all the worlds together. Each of them can be completely different including virtual apartments for decorating, plazas where readings and musical events happen, space-action games, full-blown MMORPGs, casual games, and Amazon storefronts.

I have zero interest in the product after seeing this small glimpse of it. In a nutshell I want to PLAY content not make it. I am sure that there are a good number of people who want to make content but I think the vast majority of people would rather play it.

If I am missing something let me know.

Someone is angry.

I was right, and Raph is going to have a lot of disappointed fans. They wanted a sandbox MMO...

You quoted yourself saying ralph.

Which isn't his name.

YOU FAIL.

Hey, I'm a game guy. And I have people who are waiting for the next Raph-worldy thing. I'm not going to ignore them.

I have zero interest in the product after seeing this small glimpse of it. In a nutshell I want to PLAY content not make it. I am sure that there are a good number of people who want to make content but I think the vast majority of people would rather play it.

If I am missing something let me know.

I wanna be raptor fucking jesus. Not a raptor fucking jesus. But Raptor Fucking Jesus.

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2112/raptorjesusthumbnailbh1.jpg)

Ok I'll support your Raptor Fucking Jesus if you back my:

Gonna Rape You Beaver Buddy Christ

It's not entirely clear how they plan to monetize the service when it's simply embedded in a facebook page, a community not under their control. They certainly can't charge subscription fees. I guess we'll hear something about that at 7.

I see flash as a major limitation, or atleast, having a cap on what is possible.

The same way all these other widget companies like YouTube make money which is 'Get lots of users. Profit." Possibly micropayments like IMVU.

The same way all these other widget companies like YouTube make money which is 'Get lots of users. Profit." Possibly micropayments like IMVU.


Flash is pretty much the only option with Shockwave being a distant second. Papervision3d helps Flash a lot.

Papervision3d is limited, doesn't use 3d hardware (CPU bound), and is a bitch to use... However, it has potential.

I have also never seen it used with any dynamic data, if you have a link to one, id like to see it.

Not using hardware is one of the features. Not being able to use hardware is one of the draw backs.

Here's one. It's in Russian. You have to select a year more than 18 years ago, choose the red 'sticker' in the center after that loads, and then choose the paint bucket.

Flash w/ Papervision:
http://www.improvise.ru/video/enter.aspx?return=/bus/draw.aspx

Shockwave+Plugin:
http://v3d.pagesjaunes.fr/paris/

Very cool. But still, not a "Game world"... Eh, ill be watching it, it does have potential, and im sue one day we will see flash as a full 3d client/viewer..or something elese will come along =)

Again, very cool.

If you have something that a mid 40's guy would like in there Raph I am all ears, and it does not have to be a balanced sandbox space type game to get me interested. But my interest level with interacting with teens and below is never going to be there.

This isn't all hypothetical, either. We fully intend to be customers of our own product. We've already started work on our first big game - a "worldy MMORPG" with what we hope will be a ton of fun game play. What's more, we figure that some of you who have been looking for a game like that might want to help us build it.

I'm guessing that the target demographic for most new ideas is in the 18-26 range.  That leaves gamers like you and I left to focus on the niche market... which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I've given up hope that any of the large money projects I see on the horizon will hold my attention at all. 

I remember when Neverwinter Nights came out and destroyed the MMO industry as we knew it.  Who knew that everyone in the world wanted to take the time to make content?  And that everything they made would be things other people wanted to see?  Yep, user-created content sure is the future.

And all those illiterate horny teenagers who can barely handle getting some shitty rap song to play on their MySpace page?  They'll take to the design and creation of virtual worlds like fish to water, I tell you.

This post is so green it turned white again.

Metaplace will support everything from 2d overhead grids through first-person 3d. However, right now we only have clients that do 2d of various sorts, including grid view, 2d isometric, 2.5d heightfields, and so on. We expect to keep working on the 3d client support.

Sarcasm is lost on some people.

PS welcome to hell newb poster

I'm guessing that the target demographic for most new ideas is in the 18-26 range.  That leaves gamers like you and I left to focus on the niche market... which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I've given up hope that any of the large money projects I see on the horizon will hold my attention at all. 

oh yea and P.S. - thanks for the warning but with 89 posts to your cred and 6 months of watching on mine pardon me if I think that maybe I quite possibly was already privy to your shared wisdom before you even bothered to reply...

More information for the gamer types:

http://www.cuppycake.org/?p=251

And of course, the part you’re all waiting for. We’re making Raph’s new worldy MMO in our platform.

I pray that some Indy team comes around in the near future with [the holodeck].

Imagine [the holodeck].

How bout collision detection for internal organs.

Christ, anyone who's bragging about six months of lurking or having joined at launch doesn't quite get how old this place really is (in terms of the people) :)

But it is more fun than waiting for Raph to come back.

And thanks cuppycake :)

I LOL'd.

    Hey guys!

    Now that the cat is out of the bag and our Metaplace website has gone up to the public – I wanted to come here and address you all specifically. I know there is going to be some confusion about what we’re making and I hope to answer any questions that you guys have about Metaplace.

    First of all, Metaplace is a platform that allows you to build any sort of world or game that you wish. Our tools will enable users of all skill levels to create games that can be played anywhere on the web that reads our open client standard – which includes cell phones, blogs, Facebook widgets, Myspace, etc. We host the servers for you and provide forums so you can interact with your players. You can start your own game from scratch, or you can import a stylesheet (shooter, RPG) to give yourself a base to work off of. It’s all pretty simple – even *I* have made something — and I don’t know anything about programming!

    Secondly, Metaplace.com itself will be a virtual worlds portal that allows you to discover and play new games and worlds. Rate your favorite games, earn badges, connect with other gamers and hop from one world to another with ease. We expect all sorts of unique games and worlds – everything from your standard RPGs, to Tetris clones, to Amazon bookstores, and university lecture halls.

    I’m sure you all are wondering – “Why should gamers care? What is cool about Metaplace for us?”

    Well, we’re making this platform in an effort to improve the pool of repetitive MMO mediocrity that is out there right now. We know that MMO gamers as a whole aren’t really ‘feeling’ the current choices of games that they have. There is a lot of subscribing and unsubscribing and resubscribing. We are out to change all that, and this is the way to do it. Far better tools, faster development time, lower budgets, and openness to new talent. There really isn’t a limitation to what people can make with Metaplace – and there are a lot of creative people out there with limited access to expensive tools and large teams. We’re simplifying things so that even you can make something totally awesome, even without programming skills.

    Where have all the modders gone? That’s right, there aren’t any left! Now is your chance to let your brilliant game design ideas flow and come to life in your own world. Everything is open and extendable in whatever direction you want to take it – and we can’t wait to see what direction that is!

    You have to admit it; the whole concept of ‘play anywhere’ is pretty neat. How often have you wanted to play a game with your friends, only to find out that their video card can’t support the game? Have you ever been trapped in an airport for longer than expected with just your cell phone or an ancient laptop? We plan to show you just how good a game can look in a browser, and just how much fun it can be to play. Imagine people playing YOUR RPG on their cell phone, or in their Facebook, or in the sidebar of a gaming blog. That is accessibility, and we’re out to show you just how awesome it can be.

    And of course, the part you’re all waiting for. We’re making Raph’s new worldy MMO in our platform. Yes, we’re spending all of our time talking about the tech right now and how open ended it all is. But we are gamers too, and a good part of why we’re doing this is to make the cool games that we want to make. We’re still in the early stages on that, but you can expect to hear more about this game in the next few months.

    Feel free to ask any sort of questions you may have, and I’ll answer them for you! I look forward to seeing what sort of awesome games you guys make!

Sure, games can be made from this, and probably will--Raph's site says they will in fact do so. But why does every single thing that gets made in the software industry have to be something everyone thinks is simply amazing?

Stuff like this is fleshing out the internet space from a bunch if animated gifs and text based forums to the next generation of interactive participation. I don't like the way a lot of my neighbors keep their yard, or the decisions they make painting their house--but I still love my neighborhood and enjoy walking around it.

And of course, the part you're all waiting for. We are making Raph's new worldy MMO in our platform.

But yes -- what we are doing is trying to make it so that a virtual place will be as typical to see on a page as a movie or music or an image.

Newbfight!

And Salamok, you're a fucking idiot.

Is anyone else here as incredibly scared of seeing the F13 "virtual place" as I am?

Back from dinner, about to crash...

No login required for a world unless the world requires it. So go to the page, you're in as a guest by default. You can just email someone a link and they can get iin by just clicking it.

Hopefully, open beta in the spring. Press before that for sure... closed beta or even late alpha.

I remember when Neverwinter Nights came out and destroyed the MMO industry as we knew it.  Who knew that everyone in the world wanted to take the time to make content?  And that everything they made would be things other people wanted to see?  Yep, user-created content sure is the future.

And all those illiterate horny teenagers who can barely handle getting some shitty rap song to play on their MySpace page?  They'll take to the design and creation of virtual worlds like fish to water, I tell you.

This post is so green it turned white again.

Fuck it.  I scoff, but I'll probably end up trying to make a game on there if it's cheap to do so.  Me and a few friends have had fun tinkering around with UO freeshards in the past.  This could be kinda the same thing.  I can make my own shitty amateur virtual world with no PK.  Slayerik can make the same game with lots of PK.  And then we can fight over whose is better.

I’m sure you all are wondering – “Why should gamers care? What is cool about Metaplace for us?”

Well, we’re making this platform in an effort to improve the pool of repetitive MMO mediocrity that is out there right now. We know that MMO gamers as a whole aren’t really ‘feeling’ the current choices of games that they have. There is a lot of subscribing and unsubscribing and resubscribing. We are out to change all that, and this is the way to do it. Far better tools, faster development time, lower budgets, and openness to new talent. There really isn’t a limitation to what people can make with Metaplace – and there are a lot of creative people out there with limited access to expensive tools and large teams. We’re simplifying things so that even you can make something totally awesome, even without programming skills.

Where have all the modders gone? That’s right, there aren’t any left! Now is your chance to let your brilliant game design ideas flow and come to life in your own world. Everything is open and extendable in whatever direction you want to take it – and we can’t wait to see what direction that is!

You have to admit it; the whole concept of ‘play anywhere’ is pretty neat. How often have you wanted to play a game with your friends, only to find out that their video card can’t support the game? Have you ever been trapped in an airport for longer than expected with just your cell phone or an ancient laptop? We plan to show you just how good a game can look in a browser, and just how much fun it can be to play. Imagine people playing YOUR RPG on their cell phone, or in their Facebook, or in the sidebar of a gaming blog. That is accessibility, and we’re out to show you just how awesome it can be.

And of course, the part you’re all waiting for. We’re making Raph’s new worldy MMO in our platform.

All I can think of calling this place even in my own thoughts now is Meatplace. Thanks, fuckers.

Presumably, though, you'll have to use his world to fight over it in, since there's no PvP in yours.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities for persistent cross-world avatars.  Is it an idea whose moment has come?

There's always kill-stealing, training, resource domination...lots of ways to pvp in his carebear village.

Digital Morality.

Now there's a useless term.

As for copyright infringement. Youtube doesn't get away with it. They remove stuff WHENEVER asked. YTMND falls under parody. All google does is search the internet. There is no real copyright infringement there. I suspect Metaplace will play the parody card.

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

I have to admit this has me interested. I'm the type of guy that buys every game that promises easy modding tools, gets pissed off at the lack of "easy" and goes on to trying to mod the next one. I usually keep playing the game however, because of all the othe more talented people out there making mods.

What I'm curious about, is your thoughts on issues that will come up with how the system gets used. Adult content? Use of copyrighted assets? Are you going to try to actually police everything that you host? And if you open source the hosting, is it just a free for all of "hey, we only made the tools, don't blame us"?

Well, the copyright infringement issue should be something that Areae will protect against in their EULA, and I'm sure they'll be trying to monitor the usage and which things are created. The problem is where the "tween toolset" becomes something that kids do ignore contracts on. The EULA should protect Areae against anyone infringing with their creations, but it also doesn't mean that someone won't push limits someplace and also create just as problematic an issue from the ESRB, Media, whatnot.

If a "creation" is something with enough freedom, but yet has limits, then someone is gonna need a heavy hand on enforcement. Raph the dictator? Emporer Raph? Can I have a secret police uniform, or be KGB in your Communist state Raph?

I also don't blame him for the website issues, and it probably wasn't hosted on anywhere near the server machine or bandwidth that it requires. Getting media attention was probably expected, but also there might've be a huge load compared to what they were anticipated.

If I paint a picture of Superman and try and sell it, DC isn't going to come after the makers of the paintbrush or the pencils.  They're going to come after me. 

How can/could Metaplace be held liable for copywrite infringement for someone else using their tools (the proverbial paintbrush) to copy <whatever>?

Or is this part of the forever grey area that is the internet that hasn't been fleshed out yet?

That's very kind of you but on the internet, you're supposed to prepare for the worst. For example, if I weren't at work, there'd be a rickroll link in this post.

Stuff about Meatplace

Alpha testing begins now, starting with 50 volunteers. In later months, that will expand to 500, and by the time it goes to closed Beta by the end of the year, will have room for up to 5000, a community of early adopters which Areae will help teach to use the development tools.

I'm really trying to figure out how this is different from what SL is heading toward...

I'm really trying to figure out how this is different from what SL is heading toward...

I agree with the rest of you about the big question - what's the revenue model?

If I make the world's most popular Metaplace application (say, Naruto is married to Barbie and together they pick berries while fighting off Big Daddies and Lich Kings) am I going to be able to profit from my work? If so, how?

Some subtext I see in Raph's "it's FREE!" comments is that it's free to do the small things. You want bigger, you've got to pay for it. Which is pretty much the motto of the internet anyway ;-)

Every asset is a link. Pac-Man is on YOUR host, not ours. "It works like the web" remember?

So I have to host my own servers and foot my own bandwidth bills to do anything with this?

Fail.

I'm sure Areae would host your textures themselves for a fee.  I mean, why not?

I don't know how YouTube makes money, so I'm not concerned with how this will do so, either.

Kazaa/Bittorrent is more about content distribution, not really content creation (Though is this a distinction without a difference? I'm not really sure).
Requesting amateur lawyerly guesses.