Schilling's Green Monster Games

[chong li]

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

My answer to WoW doing a great job with mounts?  The answer is no, since clearly there are far better examples than the glorified speed buffs in WoW.

Before you get all puffed up with yourself.... do some research.

EQ2 had this style travel added in around 4 months after launch.   You got free cross world boat travel, but you had to deal with a scenario/encounter.  Like defend the boat, etc...  Players hated it and it was removed from the game around 6 months later.

When people want to travel, they want to travel to get with friends.  Anything that delays that is annoying.

Designers need to take that into account.  Regardless of all the other bugs, making me run back and forth through Fields of the Dead was the reason I quit AOC.  Dont add reasons for people to quit.

Well, I'm not really talking about travel.  I'm talking about using mounts to enhance and add interactivity to gameplay.

Travel should be accounted for in the world design, not patched later with a speed-buffing mount.

[schild]

You don't believe that Curt Schilling should bother trying to advance the technology of MMOs?  That's fine.

This has nothing to do with Curt Schilling because...

Maybe someone else will.

No, they won't.

We're just not there yet.

[chong li]

You don't believe that Curt Schilling should bother trying to advance the technology of MMOs?  That's fine.

This has nothing to do with Curt Schilling because...

Maybe someone else will.

No, they won't.

We're just not there yet.

We'll never get there until someone does.  Why not Curt Schilling?

[schild]

I don't care what team it is, in 2009 the answer to your silly crap will continue to be:



Same with 2010 and 2011.

[ahoythematey]

holy crap

smiley saved in folder!

[chong li]

I don't care what team it is, in 2009 the answer to your silly crap will continue to be:



Same with 2010 and 2011.

You remind me of the old cliché of the buzz-kill high school coach who tells the kid he'll never make the big leagues.

You don't innovate by assuming the situation is impossible and hoping somebody else/some new miracle technology will come along and solve the problem for you.

[Righ]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

Bit of a deja vu; also, somewhat different look on this subject at RPS: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/26/why-cant-i-teleport-in-mmos/

The best travel system in any MMO ever was the "b-tele" (blessed scroll of teleportation, named for the Nethack item) in the original Lineage. You could bookmark up to around 30 places in the world (there were a few places you couldn't bookmark, such as within around 50 yards of a castle or the interior of a cave/dungeon) and then, upon reading a b-tele, you could choose from a list of those bookmarks where to travel to.

[Furiously]

I can remember when EQ2 came out and I journeyed into the plains. It was great getting all the exploration exp and having two people in the zone. The punishing corpse runs to regain your spirit were still there, it was risky and fun. But once I was the right level and had been everywhere already it was really boring running around.

There is really a fine line between a punishing large world travelwise and it being far too easy and unrealistic. That being said I would be totally cool with just being able to summon anyone anywhere in the world and not having any special boats, horses or zeppilins.

[rattran]

You remind me of the old cliché of the buzz-kill high school coach who tells the kid he'll never make the big leagues.

You don't innovate by assuming the situation is impossible and hoping somebody else/some new miracle technology will come along and solve the problem for you.

  You remind me of a really slow kid. Comparing a fully scripted mount in a single player game to a mmo mount qualifies you for a helmet.

[chong li]

You remind me of the old cliché of the buzz-kill high school coach who tells the kid he'll never make the big leagues.

You don't innovate by assuming the situation is impossible and hoping somebody else/some new miracle technology will come along and solve the problem for you.

  You remind me of a really slow kid. Comparing a fully scripted mount in a single player game to a mmo mount qualifies you for a helmet.

Wow, the sheer number of old battle scars around here is frightening, you'd think I'd wandered into a retirement home for veterans.

It's a perfectly valid comparison.  It really smacks of risk aversion in the MMO community, which is why we see so much stagnation.

[schild]

It has nothing to do with risk aversion. We're simply not there yet. We're not saying we wouldn't love such a thing, we're just far more in touch with reality than you are.

So, I ask you, please stop being such a gibbering idiot.

[Stormwaltz]

...you'd think I'd wandered into a retirement home for veterans.

These boards host veterans of all the major conflicts, dating back to the "Bleeding Britannia" range wars which led to Treaty of Trammel. They've seen many starry-eyed idealists march to the front, get chopped down by the fire of budgets, technology limits, and schedules, and get wheeled back here with no more to show for it than a Purple Heart on their resume and a conviction that they could have taken that position, if only, if only...

MMO. MMO never changes.

[UnSub]

Back to the original question: provide upgradeable travel powers at lvl 1. It's the way DCUO is going and ChampO offers travel powers at lvl 5 (from the pre-order information). Time spent travelling is time spent not having fun.

Secondly, allow for instantaneous teleportation between areas. CoH/V has multiple teleportation options (especially group teleport, making teams easier to manage), MxO had hardline points that you'd find and activate, which then meant you could teleport between any of the ones on your list plus it made it a game of discovery. Maybe you have to travel the long way the first time, but after that you can teleport there.

Thirdly, if you are going down the road of offering mounts, offer a wide range, each with its own benefits. There will be some players who will always take the faster option, but if a mount was slightly slower but (say) meant you got a bigger inventory or something they will find a use for it. Also: lots of cosmetic options for mounts. They will be used.

Keep an eye on Fallen Earth if you want to see how players react to craftable mounts they can customise to a degree.

[Hayduke]

You remind me of the old cliché of the buzz-kill high school coach who tells the kid he'll never make the big leagues.

You don't innovate by assuming the situation is impossible and hoping somebody else/some new miracle technology will come along and solve the problem for you.

Actually in this case I think schild reminds me of the wizened old coach who tells a kid that as long as he has bad complexion, a hairlip and an adam's apple he's never going to make it as Miss Nebraska, and please stop wearing your mom's pumps to practice because you're scuffing up his court.  I'm sorry, but this just hits a little close to home .

That's a terrible analogy, wtf.

[Draegan]

Just look at what Runes of Magic did with mounts.  Great system if you're looking at RMT.  You can adapt it to in game though.  Rent mounts to get around faster, world wasn't big so that walking was irritating.  You can also get permanent mounts too.  Started at any level.

[Bzalthek]

Most of the time experience has a better grasp on reality than starry-eyed idealism.

[gehrig38]

I couldn't agree more with the customizable mount stuff. Faster? More slots? Vanity items? How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit? If mounts are not part of combat, they can still be a fun part of game play beyond making the trip from point a to point b faster.

[Nebu]

How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit?

I like that idea... a lot.  Sometimes you just want to get to point b without having to stop for every trash mob.   I also agree that mounts can offer an aestheic and collectable aspect that transcends normal, core gameplay.   I like housing too!

[AcidCat]

I couldn't agree more with the customizable mount stuff. Faster? More slots? Vanity items? How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit? If mounts are not part of combat, they can still be a fun part of game play beyond making the trip from point a to point b faster.

Yeah I like these ideas. You could have a mount customized for bag space, one for just getting somewhere ASAP, one with some fancy crap to just parade around town.

[Tarami]

I'm sure the mount slot can fit right in between the main hand slot and the class item slot. I can see it already, "Chestnut Mare, req. level 43, +1% damage to spells, +2 bag slots"

This is seriously making me a little depressed.

[tmp]

How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit?

Smacks of backward design tbh; i mean -- what's the purpose of getting knocked off your mount to begin with? If it was soooo important to have it in even though you know it'll irritate the beejezus out of the players, it doesn't make much sense to give them possible way to work around that. And if it's not soooo important then why not just get rid of it altogether..?

[Tannhauser]

How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit?

Smacks of backward design tbh; i mean -- what's the purpose of getting knocked off your mount to begin with? If it was soooo important to have it in even though you know it'll irritate the beejezus out of the players, it doesn't make much sense to give them possible way to work around that. And if it's not soooo important then why not just get rid of it altogether..?

To make someone take a little risk when they ride their mount thru a dangerous area?

[schild]

It's pretty apparent your dead set on horses and Horse Armor®. Which is fine. So I'll step off my pedestal of fast-travel and say that your world better be so awesome. And I mean awesome.

[SeaCell]

For one of the most diverse and efficient travel systems of any MMO see Anarchy Online.

Class specific travel buffs in all flavors (self, other, team) from run speed, non-combat flight-morphs, teleport player to location, teleport player to caster, teleport player to travel hub. level restricted to cast but not for target

A variety of vehicles : Ground (borderline useful), Water (useless), Air (required, unless Class has flight buffs)  money / level-skill restricted

The 'Whompas' System - chain of travel portals connecting all major hubs and faction areas. no restrictions.

The 'Grid', Tiered (literally) portal travel systems tying major hubs and every world PF together. level-skill restrictions for tiers.

"Fixer Grid' class specific travel system similar to the above but destinations are more covert and usually associated to content 'hot spots' esp. world PvP staging areas. Class / level / quests restricted, but end game buff-able to others.

[tmp]

To make someone take a little risk when they ride their mount thru a dangerous area?

But if this risk can be then optionally disabled with some 'horse armour' then the whole system basically turns into just a cockblock requiring the player to acquire such piece of gear just so they can travel in peace. Although i suppose it's not that different from the concept of mount itself (you have to be that many levels high to travel a bit faster) so in a way it fits

[Ozzu]

These boards host veterans of all the major conflicts, dating back to the "Bleeding Britannia" range wars which led to Treaty of Trammel. They've seen many starry-eyed idealists march to the front, get chopped down by the fire of budgets, technology limits, and schedules, and get wheeled back here with no more to show for it than a Purple Heart on their resume and a conviction that they could have taken that position, if only, if only...

MMO. MMO never changes.

Beautiful.

MMO is hell.

[ahoythematey]

Run by madmen in Ivory Towers.

[UnSub]

To make someone take a little risk when they ride their mount thru a dangerous area?

But if this risk can be then optionally disabled with some 'horse armour' then the whole system basically turns into just a cockblock requiring the player to acquire such piece of gear just so they can travel in peace. Although i suppose it's not that different from the concept of mount itself (you have to be that many levels high to travel a bit faster) so in a way it fits

It's a choice. Maybe it is a near mandatory choice for anyone who wants a mount, but it's a choice none-the-less.

Perhaps there are alternatives to mounts that mean you don't have to use them, or use them for combat. Perhaps there are mounts who work better when you are knocked off them. Perhaps there are disadvantages to being locked into your mount (e.g. slower dismounts, bigger target, etc).

Yeah, I know, I know. It's all in the execution.

[tmp]

It's a choice. Maybe it is a near mandatory choice for anyone who wants a mount, but it's a choice none-the-less.

Yeah, it's a choice between getting continually stabbed in the cock every time you travel, or not. To use an analogy it's like making your wizard class so mana-hungry they have to sit down after every second fight, and then give them optional trait at level X that makes their mana supply permanently full. It's a choice to take that one too and they can just keep drinking water instead but srsly -- what does the game gain by having such component that's there just to make the players optionally miserable and force them to spend part of their time on something that's not fun until they grind their way to enable the 'off' switch?

And if we then move onto "it's ok, we'll just make it so the players who do opt for cock-saving option just get kick in the balls instead so no one really misses out on some pain" ... that's just well,

[Lantyssa]

I think you meant to replace mana with endurance and trait with Stamina. 

[naum]

I like the way ATITD did travel — specifically the offline time accumulation that could be used to speed up your travel time…

Mounts? Meh…

[Tarami]

Specifically the offline time accumulation that could be used to speed up your travel time…

I like that a lot. Not sure how it could be smoothly implemented in a Diku without resorting to additional bars or tokens, but I really like the concept.

[schild]

I just want to say that I'm not a fan of offline accumulation of anything except maybe skill gain or crafting completion.

If you're going to give more exp or faster travel time for NOT playing, you may as well just give permanent higher exp or fast runspeed.

[Tarami]

It's a catch-up mechanism. I like catch-up mechanisms because it doesn't make sense to give power gamers all of the advantages if you want to have a broad audience. Board games typically penalize the leading player in some indirect way to level the playing field. Most MMOs do not do anything of the kind, rather the opposite. Really, it's okay giving weaker players a moderate boost to keep them interested. Many games trivialize content over time, but that's not the same thing and it certainly doesn't feel the same to the player. I believe it's better to buff the player than nerf the content, especially if you have some kind of handicap implemented from launch. It will still take the weak player longer to do all that content in actual time, he or she is just getting more done in the same playtime. I don't see what's wrong with the principle of it.

Also, how about removing a feature from a model MMO some time, just to mix it up? The philosophy in MMOs seems to be that all that boring stuff can be fixed by adding ten more percent. Pointless mounts could be a start, because if it can't be done to the level of Mount & Blade, I'm just not sure it's worth doing. M&B was the first game where I felt that the mount had some concrete meaning.

[Draegan]

I couldn't agree more with the customizable mount stuff. Faster? More slots? Vanity items? How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit? If mounts are not part of combat, they can still be a fun part of game play beyond making the trip from point a to point b faster.

Vanguard did this already.