f13.net

Press Release from Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling, R.A. Salvatore, Todd McFarlane)

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061114/ph00892.html?.v=1 (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061114/ph00892.html?.v=1)

Looks like GMG is picking up quite a few SOE employees thus far.

For more of a background on GMG: http://www.greenmonstergames.net (http://www.greenmonstergames.net)

Blackguard kind of sort of said something because he's now started working for them, but he tacked it on to the end of some other thread.  A big green monster trying to swallow up SOE sounds like a fun game all on it's own.  I'll watch!

Actually Schilling said that SOE could become the publisher of the game later on as it happened with Sigil/Vanguard.

So we are going to get Bushie Pitching Drizz't Spawn? No thanks.

This is pretty surreal.

I can only hope Emilio Estevez still has some money to start up his own game studio. He was a hardcore PKer in UO, who quit when trammel came out. Yeah, the same guy from Young Guns.

Keanu Reeves played and bought all his loot with eBay gold.

I have heard that Schilling is out there trying to get investors... he spoke at some conference or other recently.

Didn't you get a new job recently, Raph?  Or am I having those weird dreams about you again? 

The FoH boards has a pretty long thread (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/24711-green-monster-games-curt-schilling.html#post555104) about GMG and their plans, which Schilling posted to quite a bit.

I tend to think of Kurt Schilling as a Tigole Bitties that played a sport.  Am I way off or something?

 Don't hate.  He's living the dream and you are all jealous.

I am the one living the dream, cockholster.

Hehe, pretty good commentary.  I am loving his baseball/MMO  anologies...

You just need to wake up.

Funny, HRose is over there trollin' him.

So sad.

He would, fucking Vicklas.

I think trolling is actually more popular over here.

I think it's more popular in large bodies of water.

I think duse is trolling actually. Either that, or he forgot what site he's posting at.

i.e. Stop stating the obvious dumbshit. Of course we're losers. Now fuck off.

I don't seem to know what we're talking about anymore.   :|

"How cool would it be if...."

Someone let me know if Salvatore starts posting, so I can register to go call him a wanker and prattle on about Drowschwitz until I get banned.

Drowschwitz?

My pet word.

It's a concentration camp for elves, right?

Everyone has a role to fill.  Know your role.

Classy.

Anyway, I'm interested to see if MacFarlane and Salvatore will actually add anything into the game or if Green Monster Games is going to go down in a ball of flames due to "artisitic differences".

After that, I'll be interested to see what they actually plan on releasing. Celebrity devs is all well and good, but it means nothing if all they plan on releasing is WoW MkII.

That's horrible!

Yet why can't I stop laughing?

Almost TOO easy.

Your mom's too easy.

This thread has degenerated to mom Jokes?! Let's get off the moms, cause I just got off yours 8-)

Ah, Good Will Hunting.

He can't fuck up a game any worse than anyone else has, I suppose.

More power to him.

Yeah, I think Dark and Light takes home that prize.

I don't know, I think a lot of games are trying to win that one.

I'm not big into sports, especially not baseball.  Is this Schilling guy someone I should instinctually hate like so many of the other sports celebrities or is he an allright guy?  Someone tell me how to feel.

I already know how I feel about Salvatore and MacFarlane (indifferent).

Schilling's an all right guy. He's outspoken without being a complete douchebag. He's also got nerves of steel. He's the pitcher who pitched through the playoffs and World Series with a DETACHED FUCKING TENDON in his ankle. In order to keep his foot from falling off, he had the tendon STAPLED to the bone that day, then pitched with it. It bled through to his sock, which is why he's referred to as the bloody sock guy.

Schilling is amazing. Still has bad taste though.

Schilling is one of the really good guys in sports, to be honest.  Does alot of work with charities, never gets into trouble, and most definately not a sports primadonna.

I wish em all well.  Industry needs some new blood and enthusiasm.

As always, Wikipedia comes up with gold....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Schilling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Schilling). A pretty good bio for Curt.

I'll just qoute some notables (other than the baseball bio)....

Sounds like a nice person even though I have no idea who he is.  Well, I do now because I read all that stuff about him.  I don't do baseball.   :-)   Also, isn't the big ALS research group (my mind's gone blank on the name) one of the organisations pushing for embryonic stem cell research?  I just saw something on the news about it this week.  It said in his bio that he's also a devout born again Christian.  I read that most of those organisations condemned fantasy games... they also condemn the stem cell research.  He seems unique.  I hope his company becomes GINORMOUS and makes oodles of money and keeps advocating for these important issues.  I have a seriously vested interest in seeing embryonic stem cell research restrictions lifted.

You are my ambassador of quan.

Not a big fan since he used his new found fame of winning the World Series and decided to campaign heavily for George Bush.  :|

Anyhow, best of luck.  New blood can't hurt... much.

Ditto.

Apparently he's really hardcore into EQ2, or at least he was like 8 months ago. Some guy who used to be in my WoW guild said he was in Curt's guild on EQ2. He said it was a hardcore raiding guild and Curt was an officer. He said they planned their raiding schedule around when Curt was available or something like that, pretty funny.

Shilling is a classy guy and one of those "hero" type people that you want your kids looking up to instead of the general douchebags that tend to be highly visible like Terrell Owens. It's too bad that people like him are the exception rather than the rule.

And for those of you who can't differentiate between the quality of a person and the direction of their politics, you are as guilty of single focus ignorance as the fascists you vilify.

Seems like a good thing. Unlike the hired faces that push MMOGs, Curt has always felt actually into it to me, from his EQ1 days. If I recall, he was playing EQ1 for awhile before SOE even had identified him as a player to use in advertising.

I don't know how much of that is lore vs fact, but if it allows him to make a new MMOG and to attract good solid developers, then it almost doesn't matter if he was really a true player or not. There is no I in team :)

I take it the character suffered perma-death?  :nda:

Edited: cause im a forum noob

Hey guys. I did mention that I'm working at GMG in another thread a little bit ago, but I figured this is a more appropriate place to comment. In short, Green Monster Games is the freaking dream for any game developer. I count myself incredibly lucky to be involved, and being able to work with the likes of R.A. Salvatore, Todd McFarlane, and Curt Schilling is awesome. I'll sound biased when I say this, but Curt is an amazing person. He's one of those people who has the passion and energy that is infectious (not a surprise since he's a baseball pitcher), and he's an absolutely great person. I haven't had the chance to talk to Todd on my own just yet, but R.A. is a man of equal character to Curt and even invited me to Thanksgiving at his place since I don't have family out here.

In short, GMG is the exact atmosphere that everyone in this industry wants to work in. Because of all the positive energy and the attitudes and talent of everyone from the top down, I expect this company to produce something incredible.

I look forward to bouncing around GMG speak on the forums here in the future, but for now I'm leaving "politically correct company" mode and going back to "Grouchy Gnome" mode.

Just tell us what damn game you are working on.  :-D

You KNOW it will prominently involve Drizz't, don't you?

Whatever, I'm buying this game.

Sadly, the first thing that came to mind there were those Olympic dream teams from the USA...that lose.

I'd better be hearing you developers working on games instead of having wild keggers and burning your development budget on expensive penthouse suites.  G.M.G. is too close to G.O.D. for my liking.  You guys might be the last chance to make PC games worth playing before I have to roll up my sleeves and do it myself.  Also, my humility can move mountains.

Oh you pack of curmudgeonly grandmas, cut Blackguard some slack and congratulate him. He's one of the good guys, in my book.

To me its clear that the MMO industry has been laboring under the yoke of corporate greed in its attempts to emulate WoW's numbers, and any enterprise that actually provides the developers the freedom to operate out from under a management bent on lucre has my 3 thumbs up.

Oh, I congratulate him for finding a good development team he's excited to work with, I just don't want him to get complacent.   :evil:

I am glad you are psyched, but who is reposnsible for handing out reality pills at GMG? Passion with the substantial financial backing of a famous athlete only gets you passion with the substantial financial backing of a famous athlete.

Don't mind me. I am just envious.

We have folks in house handling that whole "business" side of things too. Luckily, that's not me. However, I do like to help handing out reality checks for crazy ideas or serving as an anchor for people whose heads are in the clouds. I wouldn't be half as excited about this project as I am if I wasn't confident in our ability to operate at the top level in all facets. Basically, it's handled, and I don't even have to worry about it.

Also, I've probably already said too much, so don't probe!

I hope that includes a legal department the size of Wisconsin or that he has a signoff from the sox ownership and MLB on the name of the company. My first thought was a lawsuit.

Rock on Blackguard. :rock_hard: Bring the massive gaming noise.

Once it's done of course. Not before. Otherwise we'll tear you apart like the slavering pack of hyenas we are. :)

Good Luck! (again)  It's nice you found a job you can enjoy.  Sorry about the ensuing probing! 

(You know we just can't help it!)

(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/analprobestare.gif)

Now that is the answer of a true professional.  You got my attention.

By the way, EQ2 is great. Thanks for your work there.

I loved you and Moorgard sincerely (except when you ignored my ingame unique arena event. That was a BLAST you... you... grrrr).
I would prophetise a gloomy future for EQ2 now if it weren't for Owlchick, and I really think you saved the game more than once. Different people in your spot and EQ2 would be history by now.
I wish you all the best and I am actually looking forward to any community where you two are involved. Let us know, and if you ever come to ViklasLand just shout "Pvp!". I should spawn in 1 to 3 minutes bearing candies, alcohol and a ghettoblaster.

You're Swedish, goddammit!  That must be why my eyes go all squinty when you post. 

Why didn't someone tell me?  Why?   :cry:

No I am not. But I am as Swedish as HRose...  :)

P.S: Want me to use a bigger font? Cause I can.. I assure you.

Can I kill him? Because that's up there with shooting Ewoks.

Oh, well, nevermind then.

Looks like GMG has announced some more pillaging and plundering of SOE talent....I guess with Blackguard and Moorguard on board, they have a good idea on who to pick up in this MLB-like Free agent bonanza.

That press release made me choke on registration marks.

Agreed^tm

Believe me, we wouldn't put them there if we didn't have to. :P

What, a blanket "All copyrights are owned by their respective companies" disclaimer at the bottom doesn't work?

No, it unfortunately doesn't. Lawyers get bitchy about that sort of thing. Probably because it takes time and money to research and register a mark or trademark.

GMG has given me a little hope.

Just make it fun is all I ask, and with PVP :)

I am not a PVP fan, but PVP represents a passionate hard core group of players so we'll not only have it but it will be a thoroughly fleshed out and meaningful system. Not to mention fun as hell (or as fun as ganking other people can be!)

Hiya doin', Curt!

Little early to be making anything vaguely resembling a promise. :)

Careful Curt (if you are him, which you probably are):

There Be Misanthropes Here!

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

Now I'm waiting for Sinij or Slayerik to come along and scream "BUT BAESBALL IS PVP YUO PUSSY!!1!" at him.

Anyone really think Curt would ressurrect a two-month old thread here instead of spamming IGN et al to try and capture the niave?

Apparently the person who red-named him would, at the very least.

truth FTW

Well, better to be the ganker than the gankee, I suppose. :D

-Meghan

I that like it's better to be the pitcher then the catcher?

Hrm, didn't see the red name thing. Not as obvious on the forum style I use (I use the one with the white background). I r dum. I assume that's confirmed, as they don't just hand out red names around here :)

It wasn't red when you posted.

Welcome to our newbie Dev posters!

Well I guess we know who the next vanguard will be.

I am genuinely curious. Curt Schilling is a smart guy, I don't think he suffers fools gladly or would put up with low quality. On the other hand, the team of Schilling / McFarlane / Drizzt author (forgot name) has no experience in software at all. I'd be interested in hearing what their approach is going to be - get some industry vets to run the day to day operations? Who is going to be making decisions about schedule, technology, etc?

Also Curt isn't retiring from baseball just yet. I imagine he'll be more of a vision guy than a nuts and bolts guy. Hard to see how you can balance travelling half the year, but he did do some wargaming stuff before while pitching so guess he found a way.

I live in the Boston area, thinking of applying when a little more info is out and jobs are available. Certainly would be interesting. Does being a Yankees fan automatically disqualify me?

:rock_hard:

IIRC he answered a lot of this stuff on the FOH site back when this was announced and they had a thread.  If he or one of the other RNs don't return you might want to brave that particular hive of scum and villany.

Hrmmm...

Curt SHILL-ing...?

That was weak. But I guess the joke had to be made sometime.

I actually decided to finally register just so we could get it out of the way(!)

Yea, I'm also worried about that part. In their respective fields their among the top, so hopefuly they'l attract the right people, which they already seem to have to some extent. With the current line up I don't think they will have problems geting financial backing. What's left though, if I haven't missed that part, is a game designer with a vision.

Unless you grew up within 50 miles of NYC, it should disqualify you from life for being a frontrunning bandwagon douchebag  :evil: :evil: :evil:

I grew up in NYS. And I'm not really a huge fan of the current Yankees, more from Mattingly to 99 or so.

Moorgard is supposed to be that guy.

Turrican!  I used to play you on the Amiga.  I think you're still in the back of the cupboard. 

Oh hell.

EOF seems well-received.

GMG peeps coming out of the woodwork!

Hopes that Salvatore will turn up so I can tell him how much I hate his fans?  Renewed!

He killed Chewie! Actually I think Drizzit or whatever might have been the bigger offense.

Bigger offense meaning what? More offensive because it was a cool story? Awesome characters?
I'm a Salvatore fan so I'll be defending the work since I love it but I am not sure what the 'offense' was?
And if you are one of those people that think George Lucas allowed R.A. to kill Chewie because he felt like it then you should do some research on the franchise. Nothing happens in the Star Wars universe that the big guy doesn't order or give his stamp on first.

I think that's fairly common knowledge. But I always felt allowing Chewie to be killed was specifically to jumpstart the New Jedi Order book series that followed Vector Prime (though really was started by Zahn). It wasn't a cheap death by any means (good cause, no other way, etc). But like it shocked Han in the book ("I thought there was a bubble around us all"), it shocked the fans too.

He was still B-team (I imagine some would disagree with that) though, so it was like Anakin II dying later in the series. Some characters are just untouchable and probably always will be (Luke, Han, even Mara, etc). But others could be fodder for future such marketing/PR pushes (Lando, C-3PO, etc).

But the irony is that even knowing that Mr Lucas controls the franchise, people think R.A. is a sellout or to blame for Chewie dying.
I just know the guy can write, knows how to create iconic characters people care about and create stories that can get you to the edge of your seat. Good stuff.

The Drizz't stuff in particular was the worst kind of munchkin wet dream crap. It has done more damage to the common view of the D&D worlds than anything I can think of offhand. It reads like it was outlined by a 12 year old with a satchel full of source books and way too much free time.

Yeah - and that's where I would have stayed, but the temptation to make a bad pun was just too great..

Do me one quick favor so I can respond to your post. Throw a quick snippet of your published stuff so I can see what you have as comparisons.
If you aren't a fan that's cool. But as someone who's most likely never published anything, ever, your comments about his writings are about as useful as suntan lotion to an eskimo.

I'm sure you didn't come here to argue that R.A. is a good author or not. It's the internet, this will go nowhere...I think it's noble of you to defend your friend. But one does not have to have written a book to appreciate good literature.

Instead, lets hear about your pitch for the game of the future.

I'm not sure that line of reasoning really has any wings. Art critics are rarely artists.  Movie critics probably haven't even put anything up on YouTube.  Yet both can make critical assessment and give their impressions on what they've seen.

Most people here couldn't program "Hello, World" but there seems to be a decent amount of criticism for what has happened and what is happening in the game industry. 

Those that can't do.. "review". 

Edit: I'll give you this; I'm really not sure what people bagging on Salvatore here hope to get for a response.  "OMG, I've seen the light. Now where's that number for Steven Erickson I seem to have misplaced?"?

My point was this. You aren't a fan of R.A.'s that fine, say so if you feel like it. But elaborating on it smacks of the 400 pd hairy guy in the bleachers who goes far north of just yelling you suck at me when I am pitching and starts saying "He's terrible, his curveball is flat, he doesn't work hard enough, etc. etc.".
It's stupid and has no foundation, he has no clue what he's talking about.
You want to character assassinate someone that's written as many books as he has, sold over 15 million books in the US alone, been on the NYT and WSJ best seller lists, at least have one ounce of credibility to do it. Otherwise your posts become vapor.
These forums are here, I think, to exchange ideas, hear feedback, give input and whatever. Forums like this one, and this topic, are to discuss, I would think, our point of view, your opinions on our points of view, and at some point in the future our game(s).
At least that's why I come by places like this, every now and then people get into great conversations that something useful can be gleaned from.
When the guy screaming from the bleachers starts getting too loud these places become a lot less informative and end up being less frequented.
Ya, R.A. is a friend, and a good one, but he's also one of the better people in the _world_ at what he does, that's proven. I was a fan long before I was a friend so I'd have posted my response regardless of the friendship.

So because I haven't published (other than a snippet in Lum's book in which I overlooked a typo when I proofed it! Doh), I am not allowed to have an opinion? The same standards must go for all the folks who love him then, right?

I am not a writer. I am a reader. I have read thousands of books, and several hundred in the fantasy genre. I found Mr. Salvatore's books to be among the worst of the genre (along with Rose Estes...yikes). Just as it probably drives his fans crazy to hear criticisms of him, it drives me crazy to hear people praising him. Just thought I would balance things out a bit.

Doesn't mean I won't check out what GMG has to offer if and when something comes around. It certainly means that I am not in the market for any Salvatore books in the near future, however.

Also- I am guessing Eskimos will be begging for suntan lotion inside 100 years if we don't get off our asses and do something about climate change, but that is a whole different argument  :evil:


Edit- gehrig38 posted while I was writing- Sometimes the 400 pound guy is right. Maybe you are really hurting and can't pitch effectively that day, but are still trying to help your team. The end results are the same; you get shelled. Doesn't take an MVP to realize when an athlete makes a mistake, just like it doesn't take a writer or professional critic to have an opinion about a writer. I can't get into the guy's head, all I can comment on is the final product, be it a grand slam or an uninspired book series.

Look, it's easy. Can he make the story in an MMOG compelling? No one has done it yet. No one.

So, can he?

Good intentions don't a good story make.

Edit: And trust me, I'd like to believe someone can.

Frankly, its high time the MMO industry took advantage of Fantasy writer talent out there. RA Salvatore is a good bet, since desptie WAP's personal dislike of him, he obviously make stories lot of people like.

I for one am delighted that Salvatore is involved, because as Schild states, there's an apalling lack of decent plots or backstories in MMOs these days. WAP may think Salvatore is derivative, but what I think he has a problem with is the fan base, rather than the novels themselves. Remember, Salvatore just wrote them. That they became wildly popular and the basis for all sorts of after market material and further writings by not so talented authors is hardly his doing. Its like calling Tolkein 'uninspired' because we're already so familiar with his world.

Also, I don't blame Curt for going ballistic against the rather acid snipe agains RA Salvatore; from all accounts, Salvatore is a very decent and good natured human being that doesn't deserve to be credited with 'the worst kind of damage to D&D' and to be called a 12 year old.

WAP forgets that he simply wrote the books. His success, if anything, is an indication that millions are out to ruin WAP's D&D experience, another problem altogether.

In my defense, I thought they were crap when I read them 15-20 years ago. I didn't learn to fully loathe his fans until Ultima Online, where every other goddamned character was Drizz't or Raistlin. I haven't read anything of his since then, so he very well may be capable of crafting something interesting for a game. I am certainly going to check it out when the time comes.

Edit- typo. I love to interchange 'to' and 'the' randomly for no apparent reason.

Compelling plots get players through a game the first time. But the persistence of MMO requires a lot more content than any single compelling storyline can deliver. It's not writing a story. It's writing way many concurrent stories that can be compelling both in momentary chunks and in aggregate, both at launch and years later, both alone and in large groups.

Exactly. I actually like R.A. Salvatore's writing style, but that's partly because I don't have a maniacal fanaticism about whatever Lore he's writing for at the time. I love Star Wars, but given how GL ignores the rules defined by the EU content anyway, fans really should have no choice but to take everything with a grain of salt. Speaking of Chewbacca, one can't help but compare the world of Kashyyyk as defined by the book and then it as defined by the movie. Or the origin of Boba Fett. Or the revisionist history of Anakin, Obi-Wan's master, the rules for Sith, and so on.

It's all good. I prefer a good story over lockstep adherence to some fan's idea of rules.

However, at the same time, not having build something doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to critique it. Otherwise, there'd be no review industry at all, and no MMO community anyway :) People just need to draw the line between honest critique and character assasination. But honestly, I feel the latter generally comes from a Western tendency at hyperbole to make a point. It's never good enough to say "it sucks, and here's why". To get any attention ya almost need to say "they caused the end of the world and only I hold the key to redemption!"

A good storyteller in a MMOG would feature the world as the central character since the behavior of the players wouldn't be under their control.

I don't think a storyteller is needed so much as someone with a distinct, interesting world. Unless your game was less Diku MMOG and more MP RTS and based on character interactions (like diplomacy, regicide, etc). As DQ mentioned, the story is only fresh once, but the world and how a player interacts with it can keep things interesting even after you know the basic plot.

In my defense, it's more like 210 lbs and not hairy.  Also, if I'm in teh bleachers telling you that you suck, it's because the BoSox are playing the Cubs in interleague play.  I also tell right field that they suck, so really, you're just one of the many victims of my drunken bleacher ire.

If your game sucks, I think all of those people paid to review it will say so regardless of whether they've coded a game before.  Maybe your coding will be better than your curveball.   :wink:

It had better be a world where most people have names that rhyme with penis and killing the same dragon every day for two years is somehow a rational activity if you really want the players to feel like they fit in.

Wow.  This guy's coming out swinging.  Look out everyone.

(http://shogun.shafted.com.au/temp/drama.jpg)

S'ok, everyone knows pitchers can't hit.

Welcome to f13.

Fans may be stupid, loudmouthed jackasses much of the time, but that doesn't mean we can't bullshit about what we think amongst ourselves, or throw darts at the objects of our fandom.

What is the assumption about who gehrig is?

I have no idea who Drizzt is, and yes this whole line of conversation is stupid.

You have no idea how lucky you are  :-D :-D

Ok, I am done taking cheap shots.









For now.

Look at his email addy. 

This thread went all funny.  At least now I know who Drizzit and Curt Schilling are.  I'm going to assume there will be elves.

And sewers and giant rats. No game is complete without sewers and giant rats!

-Meghan

Jebsus.. if that's the response to a throw-away comment about a munchkin character (he's a title character, they're ALL munchkins)  that's emulated by so many other people with lack of imagination. (Thus the hate for said fans & the character by proxy.)  Then GMG REALLLLLY needs to stay away from any public boards once they've actually got something going.

Or get some thicker skin.


No, really.

Firstly welcome to F13.

Secondly, you seem to be making the mistake of equating popularity with objective quality.  It's not uncommon, but if you are going to be in the mmorpg market you'd better understand the difference between designing for a niche and designing for the masses.  In many ways, that exactly what RA does; targets the LCD high fantasy/sci-fi market with his books and obviously he has been a commercial success because of that.  But that is a very different animal than saying just because his book sell well everyone should the quality of his writing is great.  In the opinion of many here (at least), it's just a little too juvenile to enjoy, or we enjoy for what it is.  It's the McDonalds equivalent of fantasy books.

But that's neither here nor there.  What we really care about here is not sports, or books, but games.

So, is your goal to make the next big budget summer blockbuster style game ala WoW, or are you more aiming for the critically acclaimed but smaller market success of a niche title?  :)
Please note, pvp design often become a big determining factor in that....   

I hope you hang around and continue to post about your game and company, but, i would suggest toning down the knee jerk reactions.  Very little is taken seriously and criticism is the order of the day, often wrapped in vitriol.  It our "style" as it were.  Read around and get a feel for the place and a little thicker skin and you'll enjoy it more.  It only hurts the first time...

AOL is the best ISP in the history of the world.

They had like 50 million subscribers!

You can't go wrong with AOL!

The Red Sox are obviously better than the Diamondbacks. How many games have the D-backs played? Psssssssssssh. Wannabes.

Ha ha, I like the analogy of a fat guy in the stands, even though I don't agree with the logic.

No matter what you do, somebody isn't going to like it. No matter who you are, somebody isn't going to like you. Not worth worrying about. As someone posted earlier, misanthropes dwell here! And curve here is graded to a D. If someone doesn't call your game the worst game ever you are doing ok.

---

As far as GMG goes, there really isn't much to talk about yet. People with fresh perspectives could be interesting. McFarlane has an eye for popular and interesting designs as well as quality - McFarlane toys changed the face of the toy industry and old school action figures look downright prehistoric by comparison.

Until some gameplay details or key team members are announced most of what you will hear is idle speculation and nattering. It seems too early to have much in the way of useful discussion other than 'good luck' at this point.

I refuse to believe!

Yes, but it's that same sort of eilitist outlook that resulted in the collective bitchslap Blizzard gave this industry, the sort of point of view that can hinder understanding on why something has struck a cord with the masses, and can result in a condescending view of something that was leading edge and then transitioned into mainstream (indie bands, the iPod, most trends, etc).

Art critique is the vernacular of those doing the critiquing. You may be right about the opinion of many here part, but casting a derogatory reference is exclusionary, the very essence of the closed mind. Not saying YOU have a closed mind. I don't know you that well :) Just saying that's the easy perception for an outsider.

I don't know anything about GMG, and I honestly don't care yet until they've got something to discuss. But I do hate to see categorizations of things driven by a self-indulgent need for some to be "above it all". Screw that noise.

Windows, AOL, WoW. If Apple, Compuserve and SOE had their way, the world would be dominated by small groups of ego-stroked easily pliable pissant fanbois, with the rest of the masses looking upon them with wonder. That's bullshit. This whole conversation wouldn't be possible without companies who took unique things and tossed in the sort of resources needed to have them done right for the masses, both in execution and delivery. We could argue "right" all day long, but that's Betamax vs VHS. In the end, a group that thought the less-successful thing was "better" are probably measuring it with some rule only relevant to them (was the picture on Betamax better? Yes. Was the consumer fine with the more available VHS? Well, considering the earliest adopters were the ones who wanted to pay the least amount for them, yes).

Sorry for the rant, but I gotta play Mass Market Evangelist sometimes. Without them, you don't get the WoWs. And without the WoWs, you don't get the old guard like SOE to change their screw-the-consumer policies.

Should I have mentioned the necessity for a hardhat and thick skin when visiting in my welcome post? :|

There are no "WoWs". There is only one WoW. And if that is mass market, then good luck on seeing it again. It's tremendously expensive for anybody to do, and tremendously expensive to have the influential, industry wide effect you think it will. In the end, it's no model to follow except for Blizzard themselves.

Certainly the "don't put out an unfinished, sucky game" is a model that *can* be followed. Maybe not with as much content or sales, but the general approach is very transferable.

People still aren't getting it. Look at Vanguard, the opinions of it are almost universally the same. "Some good ideas, a lot of bugs and poor execution."

Uh, nevermind, Curt just said in a recent interview that their main title (there are others?) has a $60 million budget. Link (http://www.gamedaily.com/canvases/gd/_a/curt-schilling-exclusive-im-a-big-nerd/20070202150909990001).

Seems like a scary precident to make a game with a budget like that.  Creation of expectations, direct comparisons, etc.  I'd think making a lower-budget niche product would be a nice way to generate a following and then up the ante from there.  Then again, what do I know... I'm not the one with the bags-o-cash. 

VCs aren't interested in niche products.

I just caused Curt Schilling from the Red Sox to get into a fight over whether Drizzt sucks or not.

I'm awesome.

I do like the fact that CS will come out swinging at random internet nerds to defend his friend.  It's gallant, in a naive sort of way.

Oh, this is a nice thread. I would like some more.

/spectate

And damnit, everyone already hit on most of the good points. Popularity CERTAINLY does not equal quality. A quick glance of the pop culture landscape of the US will tell you as much.

Also, while I do not believe that Salvatore is an exceptional writer as far as professional writing goes, I don't necessarily believe he is a bad writer. Then again, I've really only read his work in the last year or so, so I haven't had to go through the years and years of fanbois doing terrible, terrible things to me with his work as inspiration. But in his defense, at least with the Drizzt material, I think the reason behind the dip in quality of the writing and storytelling is WOTC: they put a lot of pressure on him to pump out more Drizzt books for the masses to eat up. If you look at the Canticle or Jarlaxle materials, you can really see a difference, especially when compared to some of the silly emo nonsense centered around Wulfgar. Fack that shit; the portions of the book that were not about Wulfgar were more entertaining than the parts that were. "Oh, another damn crybaby Wulfgar chapter?" /skim "Crying some more, whining some more...yawn."

Having said that, Salvatore might be just what the MMO industry needs, because frankly, writing in every MMO I have ever played has ranged very extremely mediocre to Utter Shit. The kind of shit I could have written in 7th grade study hall. WoW is a prime example of this.

It's nice that you're trying to do something which you feel so strongly about, and that you're willing to defend people who you think highly of...but in all honesty, we're here to talk about the games. Until you have something substantial to show or tell us...there's not really a whole lot to talk about (in this particular thread).

Yes, as we've been talking about. WoW raised the bar to a level almost nobody else can reach, except other industries entirely. But here's the rub, you can move the emphasis of that statement: WoW raised the bar to a level almost nobody else can reach, except other industries entirely.

So who can? People or groups with a message promising enough to open wallets. Like licenses or other major IP, big known personalities regardless of their experience in the space. If Donald Trump decided to make an MMO, he'd easily get the cash needed. Same with Curt Shilling. Just him being known is enough, like why so many people followed SWG in the early days because of Raph, but at a much much bigger scale.

This is the future for AAA client-app based MMOs. You want a big success you needs to spend the big cash. And the ways to get that cash require much more than a tech team technically capable of delivering an experience. And of course this drives dikus.

But there's other ways to deliver MMOs, cheaper, faster, in more territories. I suspect the vast majority of new titles will go this route, either as indies, for niche groups, as browser-based, or whatever. However, the ones that bubble to the top of the media hype will be ala WoW.

That's not good or bad. It's just the sign of maturity in a genre.

Agreed. I'd also add that inspiring the players to create their own stories is even more important, because that is what ultimately creates a personal tie to the game world.

Back story isn't that big a deal. Every MMO has a back story. Few have a forward story, though.

Looks like some of the things from the Vanguard thread intertwined what's being said here.

I so much agree with what Moorgard just said that I push myself to say that I look forward to the day where I won't need Corpse Runs, Trains and PvP anymore to have myself surprised at a MMORPG.
It's good to have Salvatore to eventually build a nice and rich backstory, but that's not nearly enough for a good game in the post WoW era.
More power to the players, more interactivity with these supposed virtual worlds, please. (And go Moorgard, I am an old time fan :heart: )

Salvatore isn't a very good writer.

I can link you to some of my equally bad writings, should you desire.

 :roll:

GMG needs to get one or two of my favorite Dev rockstars so I can fanboi over them.  Or do something good; doubtful, though. 

Also, please note you may post outside your little thread.  Pull up a seat, have some tea, and lets get to know each other! 

"Our flagship product has a 55- to 60 million dollar budget. "


Ok.  I have some goodwill towards these guys just based on who they are (and Steve and Ryan for being on board).  But first title, 55-60M?   Why??  Maybe this is the total budget to also set up their studio?  Hope so.  Cause otherwise, isn't that insanely risky?  I though their first offering would be something maybe 1/4 or less than that.  I doubt Raph has 1/4 of that budget for his new thing, whatever it may be.  Are they also planning to be a publisher?  Are they hosting this title and doing CS? 

Risky for your average game company, sure.  Insanely so.  Now think about how much name-recog just McFarlane, Schilling and Salvatore have for VC and toss in whatever amount of their personal fortunes they might want to risk.   They could probably toss more cash at it, should the want, but why?

It does mean they have to do far better than a smaller game on their first attempt, but how many companies have even HAD more than one attempt?  Now how many have actually improved on that second attempt?   Best to just blow the wad on the first go, IMO, because you're not getting a second chance to mark your territory.

And there's a more than good reason. I had written something about this that I haven't put anywhere. I call it "time freeze".

Current mmorpgs are all stuck on a "time freeze", time never advances, nor rolls back. Mmorpgs worlds are "snapshots" of a situation. There's a story, a present and the future, but the time is frozen in a given moment. There's a reason: in order to maintain the game fresh for every player, always.

It's a necessity in order to preserve the game on its "best" state no matter when you join. It's a necessity to preserve the quality of the experience and so that all players receive equal treatment.

No, in some MMORPGs time does move forward, albeit very haltingly. The canonical example is the Sleeper's Tomb in EQ though they also destroyed one of the starting cities as well (can't remember if it was the Troll or Ogre one, that was after my time). WoW has those gates that you have to open as a server-wide event, and AC1 has an ongoing storyline though I don't know how many "permanent" changes result from that.

The most fun I had in FFXI was when my friend wanted to get out of a dungeon fast and just ran by every enemy, causing a huge train. Of course my friend was level 55 or so and I was level 20...I ended up with 7 HP and poisoned yelling at my other friend in the next room to run over and heal me. Ended up making it out with both of us at under 10 hp IIRC.

Why I mention this? Because if you read the thread we had before about favorite moments, nearly all of them are like that - not story related at all.

I came to the conclusion that I can only have fun in a dungeon if I have a shitty tank on my team. The chaos and unpredictability turns it into a real game.

Yes, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

In general there's a displacement between the story of the world and the story of the player. While the "world" is frozen, the player is not, and the personal story advances.

For example WoW uses levels to make time pass. There are quest chains where "time advances". So leveling is a way to make time advance and story develop. Even if the world is still frozen.

A perfect example of this is a quest in the Draenei starting zone. They ask you to go neutralize the effect that one broken part of the spaceship is having on the water. You go there, neutralize the effect and then they thank you, saying that they'll then pull off the broken piece entirely off the water the day after. Now, we all know that the huge spaceship piece in the lake will never be removed, because time is frozen. New players will join months and years later, the spaceship piece will be still there and the NPC will continue to offer the same quest. But for the player who completed that quest, the world "changed". He saved the lake and his people, the story had a development and soon he will be in another zone continuing his own story and continuing to accomplish things.

The point here is that this player isn't supposed to return and see that the spaceship piece is still in the lake. WoW is supposed to *keep you moving forward and never look back*. Levels reproduce the passing of time, so there's this displacement between the characters and the world.

The final point is that the world is RICH of stories. These stories are frozen on a snapshot, but even that snapshot has a present and a future. And the passing of time is then modeled through the leveling. So, from the perspective of your character, the story advances and you have an impact on the world. You stop plagues, save citizens, discover and defeat conspiracies and so on...

So WoW is RICH of stories. Also of stories that develop. What actually misses is a world that the players have an effect upon, that they can use to achieve their own goals, that they could conquer and proclaim their own.

Which is PvP.

Yep. Unpredictability is the spice of life. Once you get tanks that can keep aggro perfectly it comes down wash-rinse-repeat for every encounter. The most fun you have in combat in when the tank sucks or dies, the healer grabs aggro, you get an unexpected add, etc.

If I were making a MMORPG the #1 thing I would do is make MOBs less predictable.

The fun experiences players have are nearly always things outside the norm, but optimal MMORPG combat is predicated on getting into an easily repeatable pattern.

I love unpredictability, but that can only work in games where you don't kill mobs to gain XP to gain levels to gain new abilities. I really think skills-based games (or player-skill-based games) are much better for that. I don't feel you need PvP for unpredictability either. You just need to program smarter AI (which seems to not be done on purpose (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:PKsNs6hC3OkJ:www.grimwell.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1598+darniaq+%22dumb+mobs%22:&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)) in games that don't use those as the only/primary gate to eventual advancement. For example, all advancement comes from quests/missions, the mobs only drop crafter-quality WYSIWYG loot, and otherwise offer no game mechanic advancement. THEN you could make them smart, because players aren't relying on their predictability to achieve the next foozle.

On story:

The only game I can think of that was to truly show a progression of time was cancelled years ago. The core element of instantiated zones in Microsoft's Mythica (they gave that up for Vanguard?!) was that once you did a zone, that was it for you. You come back and it looks like you left it, but with something new. So you knock down some towers and bridges (they were using Havok physics for the zones, ala AA later) and they stay knocked down. True progression.

Of course, they hadn't figured out how to ensure that progress would work in various group configurations with people who did the first steps or only the fifth. And we've already discussed EQ2's thoughts on showing the same zone but with different content to two different people standing next to each other at the same time. WoW uses RaidIDs, but those reset anyway. And everyone else just resets until they hardcode a progress step. Persistent public spaces and time-forwardness don't work well together, but neither is instantiated zones easy to handled unless a) the player or players group never change; or, b) it's all solo content.

Progressive time is hard. The closest I think anyone's come is AC1, buf even that was Trippy's "haltingly" progressive.

Hey Moorgard.

Yes, this is the thing that keeps MMOs interesting to me. Player stories. Everyone has them, whether it's Falconeer's accounts in VG or my energy business in SWG. The trouble seems to be that people want a story-based engine in a game as part of the game mechanic. Right now, stories are only the personal experiences players have while playing a much lighter (relatively) game mechanic.

You don't need better AI. Challenging games and enemies have been made with or without good AI.

90 percent of the time, the key strategy in mmo combat is just to hold aggro and heal. Instead of that, you can could make different kinds of mob types that require jump attacks to the head (dealing with 10 or so at a time could be hard), or ones that need some kind of debuffing mechanism or power attack to take any damage at all. Or whatever. The sky's the limit. Every mob type should have a gimmick. If MMO combat can offer this, then that's already a big step.

Secondly, people need to realize that real fighting is more about blocking, dodging, parrying, and countering more than it is just attacking, and hoping your hits are harder than the other guy's. Put some damn manual defensive moves in these games (for the players, as well as the mobs).

In this respect, yeah, AI is needed a bit (but not a lot). Mobs should realize if you're repeating the same attacks over and over again, and start blocking you. You shouldn't be rewarded for being a spamming dumbass (but considering that these games are really just about the rewards, and not the experience, there's a fat chance of that happening, I guess).

Good boss fights in games generally come down to avoiding them until they open up a weak spot. The challenge is in recognizing when and where that happens. Doesn't matter if it's Castlevania, Gradius, God of War, Metal Gear, or Paper Mario. Every game with boss fighting has done it this way. Except MMO's. And it's usually not about AI, but concealed patterns (which the player has to figure out).

But anyways, if that's not going to happen, then the best I have is recruiting shitty tanks and healers. Because playing the right way isn't fun at all.

How so? I'm saying unpredictability, not impossibility. If being unpredictable makes levelling slower you can always raise XP rates to compensate. (If groups are wiping more often say)

I do think a certain class of people who want to simply do as little as possible and keep levelling might complain, but my guess is that group is smaller than most folks think.

Edit: About smarter AI, how about just *different* AI for different mobs? Or just *slightly* smarter. Let's see...should I attack the guy who has high defense and low damage output, or the guy that has low defense and high damage output? TOUGH ONE.

If I'm a dog maybe I don't think about things like that, but an Orc probably should...

I agree with Stray in that different mobs should behave differently. This is how it works in pretty much every other genre. Bullet Bill travels straight and fast, Lakitu throws Spinys you can't jump on, and you can't fireball Buzzy Beetle. Welcome to 1985.

You don't need some super-fancy AI, just some different behaviors for different mobs with a bit of randomization. We aren't talking training some amazing neural net, I feel silly even calling it "AI."

How about this: enemy mobs should try to actually win the fight! That would be a start.

I can sketch out a bunch of behavior models that would be different, fun, and easy to implement.

My work here is done :) Seriously though, I'm not asking for anything that hasn't already been done. I'm just asking that the AI learnings from other genres start making their way here, in games that support them.

And definitely agree different mobs should behave and react differently. I can kill 95% of the soloable mobs in WoW with exactly the same sequence of abilities, with or without crits. And the rest are the same for groups. Every mob can be backwards engineered for their underlying pattern.

Great for 1-{one level before cap}. I totally agree with you and Stray (and probably most here). But I'm thinking about endgame Raiding. Raiding is group-grinding for drops. Everything else happens as a result of this core. And grinding requires predictability because the first reason everyone is there is for their shot at a drop.

Nowhere near everyone Raids. But if that's the only thing to do at the endgame, then the people who are doing it need to not hate it. You can't have people hate the endgame and expect the rest of the players to bother trying to achieve it :)

I would do it if raid bosses behaved like a real video game boss. Instead, they generally behave like the same stupid mob you've been fighting since level 1, except with 50,000 more hitpoints.


I say there needs to be a paradigm shift then. It's a novel idea actually:

Make video games for actual gamers. Instead of loot whores and achievers.

Make the experience count just as much as the result of the experience.

Sup Reason the Genre is Largely Fucked.

From what I hear, WoW bosses actually have a fair amount in common with platformy bosses; they have different "stages" they progress through as you hurt them, with different attacks for each stage, and hence different strategies to avoid them.  Like this thing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxh1xlp3J_Q)

Of course, I'd never get within a mile of a WoW raid because the requirement of getting 60 people together so you can camp the keymaster foozle or whatever is an insurmountable cockblock IMO.   :-P

Preach it Stray!!

Question to ask yourself: is this fun if I'm not going up levels?

I don't play Super Mario because by stomping on a turtle 10000 times I can gain the ability to shoot 3 fireballs in a row instead of 2...I play because stomping on turtles is fun in itself.

I have no problem with XP, level based systems, etc. But don't make that the point.

If you stripped out the XP gain from a MMORPG, the core mechanics would only be fun for about 15 minutes. Literally the exact same encounter repeated tens of thousands of times throughout the entire game.

I would love to see someone develop a MMORPG with that in mind: every thing you do should be fun in itself. Fighting a mob should be fun! Riding a horse should be fun! Not just a means to an end.

I've never heard anyone complain that the turtles in Mario are a content cockblock.

Sigged.

Personally, I'd like to see a raid dungeon not have any big mobs at all. Make it more like a group platformer, or something out of the Goonies. Have all kinds of cliffs, gaps, puzzles, obstacles, and traps to get through. Make it feel like a team hiking/mountain climbing experience or something. And then make the last room at the end an unguarded treasure room.

Lemmings: The MMORPG?

That would be a HUGE step up  :-D

[EDIT]

Better yet, make that dungeon the actual monster itself (it's a titan or something). The path you're traveling on would be various pieces of his body, and every obstacle is a deterrent from getting your group to it's vulnerable point. Once you get there, there'd be one face off, and one pattern the entire group has to coordinate on to figure out in killing it.

It's Shadow of the Colossus + Lemmings + applied to 10-20 member groups  :wink:

Yah, but that triple jump sure is.  :|

I've been trying to come up with something to put here for like 30 minutes to no avail.  I just hate analogies.


I'd actual rebut with the reverse.  The mobs that you've been fighting for forever act nothing like the bosses.  WoW bosses and especially raid bosses have behaviors similar your typical video game boss. Problem is, that's not a majority of the experience.  This seems to be improving some with BC, but not enough.

You just don't see enough of that though unless you've got 39 other (now 24) friends to "enjoy" it with.

I admit (at least from what I've heard) that raid mobs (like C'thun??) are a step in the right direction. Lots of crap to get to that point though (too little, too late imo).

Also, one of the things I was interested in hearing about BC was whether they had improved all instance bosses (not just the biggies). I thought that maybe if they recruited some good content designers for their latest raids, then there'd be some trickling down of those techniques for most of the content in the expansion. Doesn't seem to be the case though, unfortunately.

Puzzle Pirates does it for one audience, Planetside for another. Everybody has different ideas about what's "fun"... but we all undestand achievement. When you want to attract a broad base of subscribers, it's safer and easier to lean on the latter than the former.

I don't know about story.  It's one of those things I always wished was better, but the whole necessity of repetition for other players means that there's never any personalization, and the best chance for "emergent" character development we can all hope for is exactly the world events HRose was talking about.  And that's pretty thin.  I think all MMO players are pretty jaded when it comes to lore and story.  Anyone who can move the needle even a little on this will probably capture a lot of attention.  If GMG can distinguish themselves alone on story, they'll probably start off well.


To me, the challenges for MMO's are really technical.  Really creative people who can come up with novel methods of capturing my attention, while still sticking to current technical methods will always probably be successful.  BUT they're going to be forever in WoW's shadows and thus niche to most analysts and gamers.  They can't innovate really because they're held back by what their architectures can provide.  Those companies which can first get their db architectures right, for a highly scabale, highly reliable environments will have an advantage.  The game designers that want to have personalization (of some kind) could do it, if everything is not dumbed down to common event and wandering monster tables.  Similarly on the graphics side.  Two examples of this come to mind -- first, Blizzard by going away from the trend for photorealism and thus not having to have bulky, slow rendering clients (and most players think graphics lag is actually caused by the provider's network); and Areanet/NCSoft by going away from the open world and fat protocols model to a hub&spoke design and an on demand (push) service for content updates.   

I don't think a lot of game design innovation we want is going to be possible until more providers think first about the performance of what they can deliver versus worrying only about the title's content or unique DIKU spin.  Just my bias.

DDO had a couple of really cool dungeons that were like that, with traps requiring some mix of character skill and player skill (e.g. platformy timing and jumping puzzles) to get through unharmed, and enemies that could for the most part be stealthed around if you were stealthy.  I had a lot of fun playing as a rogue during beta, both solo (trying to make it through the entire dungeon without having one kobold spot me) and in groups (sneaking ahead of the rest of the group, disarming traps, picking locks, and getting myself in position to take out the spellcasters right as the big melees started).  Then they nerfed rogues all to shit and I stopped playing.   :-P

I particularly liked the light-puzzler game they put into one of the DDO dungeons. Could never find that picture I took of it. Ya had to turn floor tiles to let a beam of light through from corners to the center. No timer, so not a realy puzzler, but it was an interesting use of the game engine. Plus the other run/jump/traps stuff. I wish that stuff would hit an actual PSW.

And so do many. However, players keep coming back for what's already here. Maybe as more MMOs hit consoles they'll start targeting console gamers with experiences they're familiar with but within a persistent world. And maybe that'll come to PCs too. I actually hope it does. I'm not a huge fan of consoles and platforms, but this genre starves for even more ideas imported from other genres.

As more and more groundwork is being outsourced or based on middleware, you really cannot look forward for relevant advancements in technology and design approach.

That's why all games start to look alike when they all share the same render, same DB structure, same tools, same "trees" and so on. It's the "industry". The process of homogenization so that you can produce more quickly.

The more time passes the more all games look alike.

As a reply to this bit, I'd say that critique with reasoning or elaboration is much more interesting and valuable in a discussion than simply stating that you like or dislike something. by way of an example "He Sucks" is much less informative or useful than "I think he sucks because of X, Y, and Z".

As for Salvatore himself, I read the first book or two, got partway through the second or third one and that was that. It was interesting to see a little of "ah, so this is where EQ ripped off the Drachnids from" but that was pretty much it for me after awhile. So colour me indifferent.

The last thing you want as a world advocate is more MMOs on consoles.  That will take things even further down the 'game' line and away from the 'here's the rules now go do-anything within them' line that much faster. 

Console games have a point and an ending.  Even the "open" ones like GTA.  MMOs are rather the antethisis of that and their entire point is a creative way to waste of time.  (Which is why I always get a chuckle at people complaining about timesinks in them.)

I disbelieve.

That said, I think it's ridiculous we have to implement avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over.

But for some reason, we do!

You guys need to sell your libraries :)

It's inevitable, held back by the slower pace at which networks have reached the living room than anything else. Next gen consoles will likely coming with wi-fi by default, and thus the last real consumer barrier falls (there's still amply tech and business stuff, but consumer need trumps all).

The upshot is that competition in the console space is way tougher, given how much of the 13+bil industry console games comprise. So MMOs will have to get "better". Both good and bad will come of it, but it'll only take a few successess for the rest of the genre to split itself.

The split, in my opinion, will still be between "Game" and "Virtual Lifestyle". But it'll be the former that goes to consoles, for obvious reasons. The latter may extend there too, but it'll still be more at home on the PC, for tech, interface and age demographic reasons.

(to qualify: not all kids play consoles, not all adults play PCs, not all consoles will have wi-fi, not all Game-esque MMOs will go console, and so on and so forth).

There are a lot of (read: enough) crazy FFXI addicts out there on the PS2. Not sure about EQOA's popularity though.

Granted, those aren't worlds, but the general MMO model has worked on a console before.

AoC is coming to the 360 too. That will have guild and town management, a slightly more "world-ish" pvp system than WoW, and the like. If the feature list is to be believed. I think it'll at least be a modest success.


There are quite a few games that aren't traditionally console oriented that have become a hit in the console world. Competitve online FPS's are the big one (complete with clans, tourney's, voice communication, etc), but Sims type of games do well too.

Perhaps other things can work too. Who knows. Consoles are just easy-to-develop for PC's that you play on the couch. Technically, nothing is stopping them from doing anything. And as far as "mindset" goes, the shell has already been broken more than a few times.

Personally, I think an even more ideal mindset/platform for community games like MMO's would be handhelds. It's just that the hardware isn't flexible or powerful enough yet.

Will a keyboard and mouse work with a 360?  I don't think there is a game that uses/takes advantage of it, but would be interesting to see if it would recognize a usb keyboard/mouse. 

I dunno, I can't think of too many existing MMOGs whose engine you'd really want to buy.  I doubt too many MMOG teams make reusability a big priority, given that they always seem to be in a huge time crunch to just get the thing running.

I'm very curious to see what ends up happening with the dedicated MMOG middleware that's been coming out over the past few years, though.  Multiverse (http://www.multiverse.net) in particular, which I heard a bit about at AGC -- that's the one where the user has a single client that can play any game running on the Multiverse platform.  The Torque (http://www.garagegames.com/) engine's netcode (which seems to scale very nicely, based on the demos I've seen of it) also has a lot of promise.

I'm particularly interested in Smartfox myself. You won't see Gears of War MMO coming, but graphics are not the be-all either.

I honestly don't care about platforms. "Designing for" any platform is just designing for today, basically designing for the rules that currently exist. Anyone can make an MMO for a console, even if it needed a keyboard and mouse, and even if they'd spend more time wrangling financial freedom from Xbox or the like.

I'm personally driven by a platform-agnostic future. I want Habitat realized. I know, "MMO's a hard" (enough for PC only). But to me, it's really very limited to think of these experiences as only the time one spends at a computer. We know that's not the case. This forum is proof positive of that alone.

I want a PC with a 3D PC and console client, mobile phone integration for trades, crafting and shopping, mobile gaming platform integration for soloable or small-group missions, and everything Station Exchange offers and more.

Meanwhile we've got the biggest companies capable of pulling this off sitting on mountains of cash because they're happy thinking small.

I like these games, so continue to play them, but the amount of evolution we've seen in the last five years pales in comparison to the five prior.

You can disbelieve, but aside the personal opinion there's the objective truth. All Gamebryo/SpeedTree games look alike and share some shortcomings. The "engine" has still a MAJOR role into what the game is, and if you don't control the engine, then all you do is driven by what you use.

Years ago there was A LOT more variety between games, this because you didn't depend on anything so making the game coincided with making the engines, interfaces and all kinds of gameplay. Consoles are still relatively free from recycled engines and that's why there is more variety.

My point is very simple, you can easily recognize on which engine the game is built upon. I like a lot Doom 3, but it's kind of obvious from where Quake 4 and Prey are coming. The engine IS the game. Those things you list as "trivial" aren't trivial at all and when you build a game you shouldn't leave anything out.

I really do hope that game development doesn't turn into just mod development.

As I said this is the industrialization of the process of creation, where the interest shifts on how much you produce, not what. We have many more titles, but do we have really more choice when all these titles look alike?

They work yes, but games have to be programmed for it (same on PS3). You could use it out of the box for typing messages and whatnot though.

Although....

There was some kind of a mod/adaptor someone was showing around a while back that allowed people to assign keys for various 360 controller functions (i.e. so you could program WASD for shooters). Unlikely that'll ever be a real product though (hell, Microsoft doesn't even allow people to make 3rd party controllers).

The medium is the message.

Problem is that I doubt many of the current mmorpgs could qualify to be ported on a console. The majority of them have still shitty interfaces, controls and engines. I doubt console players would accept those shortcomings that for PC are the norm.

When you bring a game on a console it needs to work without glitches. You have to make sure that it doesn't turn into a slideshow, you have to make sure that it doesn't have major bugs, crashes and that the controls adapt to a gamepad.

Imho, bringing a mmorpg on a console is a MAJOR effort. We'll see how many of those announced like Warhammer and Conan will actually do a good work instead of underestimating the whole thing.

Console game development is a different beast. I'm pretty sure we'll see some bad surprises.

/derail  :-P


Well, you said earlier you're not big on consoles, right? You must have some bias?

I, for one, care about platforms. I don't like the PC/forced upgrading model  (it's especially disgusting when consoles allow developers to wring out equivalant results on what would be piss poor hardware on a PC). It's ridiculous and expensive for people who just want to play games, and coupled with a wide reaching platform like Windows, you never achieve the conveniences of a well integrated machine anyways.

Which brings me to another thing. I like operating systems and interfaces to be specialized. There is no good one size fits all solution really. And no good way to transform a one size fits all solution into a good specialized one. Games need one thing, mobile devices another, office desktop systems another.

Lastly: Running a game from media. Screw that installation crap. Not that I "can't" do it, but it's the principle of the matter to me. A gaming machine should be as ready to rock as a dvd player. Gamers should never be asked to make any more steps than an AV user. Games should always feel like any other kind of entertainment, and never like a computer application (even if that's what they are). Illusions are important. And if there installation involved, it should be transparent.

HROSE: Good point.

Remember that FFXI was a PS2 game that was ported to the PC, not the reverse. I do agree that starting with a PC and then trying to port can get you into a world of trouble.

As for world vs. game...FFXI is for more worldly than WOW. I don't think console vs. PC makes a real difference there.

Do you really believe that Vanguard would be mature for a console port? Or SWG? Or EverQuest 2? Or DAoC?

The only two games that I would consider mature are FFXI and WoW. The first is already a console game, the other would still rather improbable because of memory requirements and controls.

The real point is that outside of special cases PC mmorpgs just wouldn't be mature for a console port. Or you build the game with that goal as a MAIN priority, or it's a dead end.

This isn't true. Look at the products made from for example Renderware, a lot of them don't have much at common at all. Sure, some engines are suited better for some kinds of games due to their aim, but there's nothing that says that an engine has to restrict the creative vision at all.

EDIT: Oh, and as stated before, it will only become more common, there's no doubt about it. http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/gearsofwar/news.html?sid=6165464 (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/gearsofwar/news.html?sid=6165464) just PR or the truth? Anyhow, squaresoft is apparently intrested at least.

Didn't I just say that?

I agree, you can' take a PC game and throw it on a console. But you can design a complex MMORPG for a console. The only real difference is going to be the control scheme and UI.

There are hundreds if not thousands of fun, successful games out there that have few or even none of the above.  Get outside the box a little or maybe just kick out a side or something.

The only thing making you remake ALL those things again is you.

Go check out Sims 2. Or Mu. Or Project Darkstar (unless Sun changed the name... I'll find out at GDC probably)

MMOs are not a medium. They are an experience delivered upon one but which live beyond them. Players already make MMOs live beyond their clients, and some companies have or are doing big work to push that further. You know what LoTRO is planning. Yes, so the game services are still going to be primarily access by the PC through web browsers and Web 2.0 applets and whatever. But that's just the beginning.

What holds back platform agnostic experiences is not technical at all. It's business. Microsoft controls who can put stuff up on and gain money from XBLA. The mobile phone industry (at least in the U.S.) is controlled by the carriers, not by the original content providers (one of the reasons Apple's iPhone didn't come from Verizon as they originally wanted it to). And good luck getting any sort of clean integration with mobile gaming platforms. Nintendo's done some cool stuff with Tamagotchi and Animal Crossing, but they're like the Apple of gaming, really wanting to control the experience enough that unless they really pushed to make an MMO themselves, they aren't going to push the envelope on agnostic UI. Even Sony couldn't think beyond their vertical divisions to let there be at least some connection between their core EQ brand and the PSP.

I really feel it's the industries that provide these various portals and content experiences that lack the desire to blur the boundaries. And if you want a platform agnostic MMO, you're talking about blurring boundaries. You think Verizon would give up a slot on their deck of even one of their zillion phones for a WoW Auction House portal?

I believe it's coming though. Either the businesses will be convinced or nationalized wi-fi will make it a non-issue :)

A bias for what and how I want to play, sorta. I hate console controllers. I just find them too limiting. But that's just personal preference. Bias aside though, the people making the cash and getting the eyeballs are the consoles. WoW is doing well, but it's way on the extreme side of exception. The only thing that comes close would be XBLA, which as a service has nearly as many users and as much attention from them daily.

So me not personally preferring to play on consoles doesn't mean I don't care about them. Quite the opposite actually. I have no choice really given where the cash has been going for two generations of them.

Question for a GMG representative:

The only job description I see up on the website is for Senior Gameplay Designer. Is it worth submitting a resume for a programming position at this point or should I wait until jobs are officially posted?

No, the "medium" I was referring to is the platform. A PC with a mouse and keyboard is a medium. Developing a game for a cell phone is an entirely different thing.

The medium is the message just means that you cannot be plaform-agnostic.

And yeah, I think you've read too much Raph Koster recently ;)

Come again? Not exactly sure what you mean by the "only thing that comes close".

Examples: The last Pokemon game (which came out in Sept) has already sold 5 million copies. And it hasn't even been released in the US and Europe. Older Pokemon games sold in the 20+ million range (worldwide). Super Mario Bros : 40 million. Super Mario World: 20 million. To name a few.

Or are you just talking about services?


How so? I mean, most 3rd person action games on a console offer at least 20 different attacks; multiple types of dodging, jumping, and ways to move around the environment (crawling, climbing, swinging, etc..); a variety of different minion opponents, and a variety of mini bosses and bosses. Among other things.

Sure, it's a bitch to type "ding gratz" with a console controller, but I've yet to find one good reason why anyone but a retard should care about that yet.

I swear, forcing designers to plan things around a gamepad can only have a positive effect on our mmorpgs (if it doesn't go FFXI way of nested menus).

I know what you meant, and you're still wrong. Did you check out the games/projects I referenced? There's nothing technical about MMOs that keep them mostly on PCs.

It's merely the User Interface that is the medium (your keyboard and mouse). MMOs are allowed their crappy UIs because the developers figure all the keystrokes are there, the mouse cursor can go anywhere on screen and if the game is popular enough the users will fix the UI anyway. Going to a console requires the UI be made better on their end. Going to a mobile platform requires a completely different UI, but it's still possible (the UI for the EQ cellphone game didn't suck, for example).

The point is you define the part of the MMO experience you want to have at a given time, define the UI for it, and allow that to hook into the core game. UI development is more than just pretty icons. It's about assessing what the user is going to want to do and designing for that. Players on a 20 minute train ride are not going to join 25-man raids. But maybe they would want to follow the chat, check auctions, move items between characters. Look at the features of the Eve mobile phone game offering (and I wonder how Vivendi will handle BSG for XBLA and PC (http://syfyportal.com/news423245.html). Integrated? Separate?)

I was talking about the service. XBLA is sort of a "massive" experience with how well their service is integrated with the various discrete offerings on it. It's not a persistent world, but it otherwise shares a lot of the same business-related cause and effects.

Too limiting or me in that I have to learn wierd non-intuitive (to me) combo actions in order to do one thing. Meanwhile I can just hit a key on my keyboard and bang, done. But that's only if the game is also offered on the PC. If it's console-only, I find most modern games are pretty good about easing even old school farts like me into the UI.

I do think they could work well for MMOs, if combat was changed to be more action-based (like CRPG stuff) and voicechat takes off.

Gamepads are sent from the depths of hell to make PC users weep. Every single port I have ever played as suffered from being originally tied to a gamepad.

To the question about submitting programming resumes earlier, please do. We are at our quota for art, design, staffing and executive positions for where we are. Our core engineering team is in place as well but we'll always take an engineers resume with industry experience. I think any company accepts those resumes at pretty much any point in their lifetime.

Timely considering the thread and talk of resumes (http://www.gucomics.com/archives/view.php?cdate=20070212).

If only Woody was actually funny....

Oh, fine, when we want those things, inserted somewhere.

Just saying that Diku++ isn't necessarily the answer.

I will agree that engine re-use is not a concern. I'd rather see devs spend more time on unique features and less time on re-implementing basic crap.

Even with the same engine you can have a different interface design and different art direction. "That tree looks like a tree in another game" doesn't bother me all that much.

But I think the point was that this is all standard UI stuff: avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over. Outside of clothing slots and paperdoll, all of these exist in MMORPG, RPG and FPS games. And as you know, all of this requires either getting or creating a development platform. Heck, even getting one doesn't come with everything you need.

I do find it funny that simple things like run/walk need to be coded anew per game. Interesting to see how each dev team thinks running happens ;)

I'm a fan of licensing engines for some things, but that can sometimes tie a developer's hands, disallowing them from digging deep enough if they didn't work out (or didn't want to pay for) a broader license.

There's no win-win. I do agree though that Diku++ is not the be-all anymore. It's been done to death. But it's easy to understand and fund so I expect numerous more of them.

Eh?  The discussion was that higher use of 3rd party tools for game creation implies that more and more games will look alike.  Dundee said he didn't agree with that but that some portions of the games would probably benefit from more reuse and probably a few dedicated companies developing those things (I think that's what he meant anyway).

I was simply restating that 'I' don't think that any of those things are neccissary for a good game.

I think Dundee got it which is why he wants to put "When you want those things." in his original post somewhere.

At this point I'm thinking 'reusable skybox tools' is just another name for shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.  In essence, and in an abstract way, I am agreeing with the original premise, all these games are already too much alike, just the thinking that you must have a skybox, paper doll and etc... is a hedge forcing our progress down a certain path.

Damn you Carmack!

I think the lack of creativity in many companies is for the fairly standard "money grab" reason. It happens all the time. Cutting edge breeds followers breeds derivation breeds stagnation. Look at match-3 casual games?

To me it's often the methodology that defines the tools to use. I don't blame the tools for limiting the creativity of the designers. I blame the source of their funding for forcing them into derivation.

So I agree with you that greater creativity could happen if people weren't hemmed into using the same methodologies. Personally, on clouds alone, I'd love to see interactive clouds in an MMO with flying. Clouds you could hide in/behind, clouds that could cause electrical storms that could short out circuitry, or be channeled into a weapon, whatever.

There's much more that could be done. It first requires the will though, and that seems largely lacking. Seems like the creativity that sparks new genres comes every 5 years or so.

Started a blog today, at www.38pitches.com
Hoping to be able to talk about baseball and 38 Studios all in one place. Can't keep up with all the forums out there now. At some point there will be the ability to do Q&A, which hopefully will be informative for all involved.

It's probably not even Curt Schilling.


or


Cut Schilling spambot v2.0!


I can't decide which comment is funnier.

And thus Curt Schilling makes his final step into geekdom, running not only his own entertainment company, but his very own blog. I'm just jealous because I think your blog will be more popular than mine within a few days. :P

Welcome to Game Development...and welcome to F13.

Realize that this is the place where we all (game developers) go to get beat up on daily, so be ready to have a thick skin!

What's ironic however is that many of us keep coming back for more!

He's already had that experience here :-D

I'm not sure "ironic" was the word you were looking for.  Masochistic perhaps...   :-D

Yay!  Baseball blog!

Wait.  What?

Baseball is the prefect sport for blogging because there is plenty of time during the game for the players to blog.

Someone should invent a baseball mitt with a blackberry imbedded in it for those guys in right field.

/wonders how long till TV cameras catch Kurt on a laptop in the dugout on one of his off- days.

I got the impression from that post that he won't be posting here much, if at all anymore...

/lawlercakes

I think he put that there just for a couple of you here.

Copernicus R Us (http://www.massively.com/2008/01/09/38-studios-reveals-copernicus/).

(btw, it's just the "codename", not the "working title")

Thanks for that:) It is the codename, period. We knew something would get out there well ahead of when we planned or wanted it to, as well as needing to get something out there ahead of when we may have planned on rolling it out, so the smart people here came up with Copernicus.

Tabula Rasa (clean slate, new thinking, philosophy) codename, or Tabula Rasa (eh, we got nothing else, let's trademark that as a real name) codename? :-)

I did like Massively's use of the term "ancient medieval". That rings of Star Trek's use of "ancient" to describe 19th century Earth. Doesn't "ancient" usually mean like pre-history, or at least, B.C.? Regardless, I don't consider 500 years "ancient".

Anyway, when do you plan to want to get something out there?  :grin:

Me? Come on, I am a gamer, I want to tell you yesterday! The smart people here? Not so much.
It will roll out when it is supposed to, and how it's supposed to.

We are planning to lift our skirts a bit more this year at Comic Con in SD.

Me likes underskirts.

I'll play the devil's advocate here.

Are you going to Comic Con to show the game because of Todd McFarlane? Need I remind you his shoddy history with games and the best usage of one of his characters - ever - was letting Spawn be an overpowered wreck in the xbox version of Soul Calibur. Game shows plz. :oh_i_see:

The timing and audience at Comic Con are just two of many reasons it's the best fit, not to mention there might be one or two more people in the world who mean as much to that event as Todd does. Being able to talk directly to his fans, and fantasy fans, and gamers, is cool.....

Stan Lee, Frank Miller, and Jack Kirby.  I win!

I'd suggest that showing Copernicus at Comic Con - which fast becoming more about nerd culture in lots of different media areas than just comics - is a good step for what is currently an under the radar game.

On the other hand, a knight riding a horse fills me with a big case of the mehs. More info plz.

At this point we'll have to settle for "meh's". As much as Curt Schilling the gamer geek would love to tell you and show you, at the end of the day every decision we make must be with the entity, the IP, as the complete and total focus. We do what's best for the game, the IP, the world and the company, and never deter from that, ever.

Aye, never deter from the Vision VisionVisionVision !!!

At the end of the day I owe it to the members of this company, this family, to do right by them and what we are creating much more so than anything else. That makes my impatience and people telling me to shut it, easier to take, even though I am the boss:)

You bring in someone as good as Brett Close, someone as talented as Jason Roberts, Steve Danuser, you're stupid to mettle or get in their way, you pay them to do what hey do best, move out of the way and let them do it.

Bah, I gotta wait to Comic Con? I was hoping for GDC :-)

Just kidding.

I do like the extra effort Lucas took with Vision though.

Shut it!

What you show better not be a minute long CGI with that guy that does movie voice-overs talking the background (or Morgan Freeman). That stuff really grinds my gears. 

How about a good slide show?

To be fair Rasix, if they blew the money on Morgan Freeman, that'd be pretty great.

Of course, they may as well just donate it to f13 if they're going to do that though.

Morgan Freeman would be hilarious.  I second the idea.

"Yes, you could say I liked Copernicus right from the start."

So you've decided not to be the Steinbrenner of MMO's?  Good call.  To be honest as a gaming fan I would find that pretty difficult.

Wait, they're doing Half-Life Online?

If they do that we'll take the opening quote from the voiceover and ETYC up a presentation...

Wasn't that Robert Guilleme/Benson?

I completely understand the reasoning, but I'm hoping for something interesting to pop up out of the strange collaboration of people that 38 Studios has brought together. Having seen how badly other MMOs have screwed it by announcing things years in advance of their actual development, I think it's a great idea not to tell us what is planned until it's beein 95% completed.

It's only been a year since he posted this but what the hell.......

Professional pitching and PVP. They are both head to head. Skill is tested on both sides. PvE would be like replacing Curt with a pitching machine.

Curt just doesn't want PVP because he can't handle that kind of fierce competition.  :grin:

Aye.

What he said. If you do not show gameplay of any kind, you do not really need to bother. EVER.

Sorry, it's an old joke of mine. I pretend to confuse Gordan and Morgan Freemans.

Ah, gotcha.

I tend to fall down the sarchasm on more than one occasion.

The funny thing is the dude's daughter (I don't remember the names) in the beginning of HL2 has freckles that remind me of Morgan Freeman.

So, Moorguard and Blackguard huh? SOE servers? Can we please avoid Jedi/Froglok type fiascoes? Like... ya know... honesty is the best policy and all. Oh, and if there is anything resembling an exchange server that you suddenly pop up six months after release I'm personally going to one of Schilling's games so I can boo constantly while he's up to pitch... or bat... or whatever it is he does.

My only real concern is that there are way too many SOE people going over to this company... and SOE hasn't exactly been a Stellar success lately. I mean, props on EQ1... oh wait, SOE didn't create EQ1 did they. Hrm... well, good luck on your spawn game.

What a terrible post.

Replace those two names with anyone who has made MMOGs before.
Replace SOE with any other companies name.

You don't even need to remove the last 2 sentences.

And you would have the exact same results.

Blizzard offshoots? Haven't produced anything of merit. NCSoft? Nope. Gravity? Nope. Turbine? Does Turbine even have offshoots? Mythic is still riding DAOC.

Obviously, you just don't like SOE. Fine. Cool. But the industry is still recycling itself. Eventually we'll get some new blood when people realize the middle section of this post. Could be a while.

I just want something shocking and original. MMORPGs are due for that any day now.

I doubt we'll see shocking and original at these development budgets, unless it goes to a different platforms. I equate what AAA MMOs are today with just how much FPS games have changed over the years. There's this belief that people know what makes it successful so just more of that but better. Which is wrong of course, but takes just long enough to realize that you've already glutted the market too much to be shocking and original in. I just don't hear any real (as in, we have a budget, publisher and actual project) discussion going on about turning things on their head, going back to skills-based non-XP open-world player-created economy games. That is fundamentally more "massive"

But then, that's one of the biggest spawn points for new genres  :grin:

This isn't to say some new game can't dethrone WoW of course. It just means that it'll need to be built along the same vectors to out do a game that has such broad appeal, which is really just "the same but more". Everyone else, the folks who do want to make something shocking and unique will do so at much narrower budgets, which means far narrower marketing budgets (and/or support from publishers), and therefore to much better targeted (and smaller) audiences.

Maybe that's GMG, maybe they'll become another game in the SOE Station Pass, or maybe it's someone else (just to rerail :-) )

I wasn't talking about their ability to make a good game. EQ2 IS a good game. I was talking about SOE's reputation.

You know how many people left Vanguards Beta when they found out Vanguard was being published by SOE? People actually didn't want to play because they didn't want SOE to make money off of them. So many so, Brad had to create a Sticky post downplaying how much of your subscription fee was actually going to SOE. It's a worthy topic. You were obviously never burned by them, but a lot of us were. I really think SOE's name is so tarnished that it's hurting them significantly.

Bleh.

If it's a good game, play it.
If it's not a good game, don't play it.
Should be pretty simple, no?

To not play a game because of someone's or some thing's association (no matter how big or small) is a bit...No..It's alot of stupid. 

If anyone is feeling hurt because of a video game, I don't know what to say.  Get over it.  Move on.  Life is too short to hold grudges over something so miniscule as ZOMG THEY LIED ABOUT <whatever zone/playable race/NGE/Trammel/whatever>!!!!!  The only person that is going to miss out on a good product is the person boycotting it over who makes it or who is involved with it.

I agree that it's stupid, but it's also very much there. There are a lot of SOE haters who simply won't go near the company based on stuff from years ago in EQ.

How about Valve? They've got a top notch reputation, and their patcher/billing system is pretty good. I don't think they've done an MMO yet, but they have to eventually. And there's always the source engine....  :headscratch:

The hilarity here being, of course, that the vanbois were upset about some actual, real management showing up but then reassured by an off-hand post made by an alleged opium-addict who didn't even know what was happening with 'his' game.

Thank you. I don't think CharlieMopps realized the parody in his post.

QFE.

Well, shit. There goes our plan for Jedi Frogloks Online.

Shame.  I would have SO played a Jedi Froglok.   :grin:

I would have named my froglok 'MoorBlackGuaaard."

You guys need some rabid fanbois.  Not too fine a point on it but, I need opening day Sox tickets.  I'm sure you know where the 'send PM' button is.   :drill:

I need SuperBowl tickets.  I'll shill this game for three years free for SuperBowl tickets.

If I had tickets to this year's Super Bowl, I would be happy to give them to you. I may even pay you to take them off my hands. I love football, but this matchup leaves me aquiver with apathy.

I'm a NY Giants homer so I'll take em!

May God have mercy on your soul.  :awesome_for_real:

Whats wrong with being a Giants fan?

Two words. Tom Coughlin.

Two more words. Eli Manning.

Got it in one.

I would also add Shockey into my loathing, but he is out of the picture this year.

Ok, well you can't crap on my team without proudly proclaiming who you root for.

Packers, bitch.

 :raspberry:

I wonder when we will see something about this game.....

I remember something about a comic convention sometime this year where McFarlane is going to be.  I have no intereste or knowledge of comic books so you can do the leg work :)

...And "Copernicus" will use Unreal Engine 3 (more jaggies for ya!!! :P) :

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=94047 (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=94047)

You're telling me.

First, RA Salvatore. A burnt out sci-fi/fantasy writer.
Second, Todd McFarlane, the american equivilent of Akira Toriyama - except his games don't sell like, well, Toriyama stuff.
Finally, the UE3 engine: A engine so buried under the ire of being incomplete that I didn't think anyone else would pick it up - let alone a company making an MMORPG.

Does anyone else think Mr. Schillings money is better spent elsewhere? Or am I lost in some fantasyland where this is all COMPLETELY REASONABLE?

They've picked UE3 for client side visuals and BigWorld architecture for server end, so it's pretty much like Stargate Worlds in that regard. I'd link to the official announcement but since their website is all Flash, that makes linking to anything but front page rather impossible. gg.

Here's some reasoning behind it, straight from horse's mouth so to speak: http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/24711-green-monster-games-curt-schilling-198.html#post1003791

So, Nebulous Fun + Cool.

I'm finding it hard to believe that BigWorld + UE3 is the only combination that allows for rapid prototyping.

To be fair the majority of UE3 complaints seem centered around console.

I like to rapid prototype in text-mode curses.  I can find out if combat is fun really fast when my big @ sign attacks the evil capital letter D.  Regardless, the environment I rapid prototype in has nothing to do with the final appearance.  So I assume Ngruk is meaning that they're going to plan for switching rendering engines when they're done prototyping?  Good luck with that.

Not at all. We just decided it was the right one for us. And so far we're really happy with that decision, as both artists and designers have been able to jump into UE3 and begin making useful prototypes with extremely minimal impact on engineering.

Ultimately, of course, engine announcements in and of themselves should be neither causes for excitement or pessimism just yet.

But yeah, we've got engines. We've got a plan. We're making stuff. So far, so good. My preference would be to shut the hell up for a couple years until we have something substantial to show, but Schilling likes to talk, so it's unlikely I'll get my wish.  :nda:

It's not, but it sounds like it was the best one, given their situation.

Bolded the important part. *grins*

Everyone likes to hear about things, but my one suggestion would be try to keep to systems that are likely to be implemented.  I think one of the biggest things that upset people with what Brad McQuaid posted about Vanguard were his thoughts about systems that he'd like to see but realistically wouldn't be able to make it in for release.  Of course, to be fair, for at least some of those systems, they weren't as unlikely when he first talked about them, but they established expectations that couldn't be met for some people.

Good and bad news on that. With his injury, he should be out of the limelight for most of the year. However, that gives him ample free time to find things to blog about, so you should have your hands full  :grin:

ARISE FROM THE GRAVE!

Sneak peak of Copernicus coming up on Thursday. (http://www.massively.com/2008/07/08/sneak-peak-at-38-studios-and-curt-schilling-s-copernicus-this/)

I don't even know what Jace Hall is.

That was, uhhhh, fast.

Shucks, I wanted to view Curt Schilling forum post history and garner his prescient insight on MMOG design philosophy…
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/search.php?searchid=792722

Use this instead:

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/search.php?searchid=793128

Or I could just post over here.....

Ya, since I'm the boss that's one of the things you have to live with working at 38 Studios.

I have no idea who Jace Hall is either. But that's not a surprise. The only person in baseball I would even know on sight is a guy making an MMO  :grin: I'm so not the guy all the marketers are talking about...

So is this going to be a straight eq/wow clone, or will it be an eq2/wow clone with guns and aliens? I love the fact that I can play these things in beta, and purge them from my HDD before I have to pay.

Edit: I read some of the thread on the FoH forums. Every other post mentioned raids, and I felt like I was going to vomit my kidneys. I can just imagine the design document for this game being cluttered with screenshots from WoW and EQ as examples.

There's absolutely no reason to post at FoH unless you plan on appealing directly to FoH.

I disagree. In between the name calling, cussing and sniping there's some decent conversation. It derails much too quickly but it's an interesting read when it stays on topic and the topic isn't screaming raving posts about what sucks.

What I'm saying is unlike say SA or NeoGAF, or hell, I'll even throw in f13 - the crowd there isn't what one would call diverse. They are, in fact, predictable, unruly, and badly moderated. And posting over there basically says 'hay, these are the types of guys I want to play my game." Remember, the net is fast and if that's where the bulk of your conversation is prior to release, it will leave more than a lasting impression. Also, when you don't deliver, the horrors you will be subject to are far worse than basically every other part of the web. Whatever though, it's your mone.... errrrr funeral. Or something.

Also, they have something called the 'retard rickshaw' and the 'rimjob arena.' Basically, I don't care how big you were in your guild, how much money you have, how groundbreaking your game is said to be, or how much you loved EQ - fact of the matter is PR should be keeping you away from places like that. At the very least Blackguard should be. /snarl

Ya, that's not an option.

Well, it's never an option. It just sort of 'happens.' I can tell you exactly how much faith the intelligentsia of the community have in McFarlane to not deliver the generica. But that's neither here nor there. You're missing my point.

I was always under the impression that FoH is strictly a piss bottle and poop sock crowd.

That's half of my point.

Edit: Also, there are some games that should be targeting FoH and communities like it. That's to say, games from established companies that can do such a thing without hurting their image. But at the moment, the last person who did that was... Brad McQuaid. His community manager and PR people definitely didn't have a leash on him.

Brad McQuaid got it rough from the FoH'ers so it went both ways.

Real life forum wars.

FOH isn't that bad though once you get passed the games.  That board attracts many of the long term MMO players who've play the game for a long period of time (if it's good).  However I could say that F13 is the worst place to post about an MMO since everyone here HATES MMOs.   :drill:

It is a rarity, but I agree with schild on this one 100%.

I have lost some interest in your game so far.

Why does this sound so dirty?   :ye_gods:

I like MMOs and I dislike FOH.  (there's no point to my post, but I rarely try and make one)

That error page too…

Ok, let's start with this.

I am fairly well versed in MMO's.  I have played, uh, most of them, with beta's in the teens all the way back to EQ1.

I have no idea what this game is, what its setting is, what its hook is, what it's doing different, what it's doing the same.  None, not a clue.

Is it because I don't read the internets well enough?  I go to several game sites on a weekly basis, a few on a daily basis, I usually know quite a bit about a game before it ever starts a serious marketing push prior to sale.

All, I know at this point is that it's a game funded by a group led by a baseball player, with some veteran MMO people on board.  And now I also know that the senior management likes to post on the FoH boards, long known as the extreme of the extreme of, uh, status quo, large guild, DKP, scheduled raid, cog in the wheel game play.  The last person I remember soliciting a large amount of input from that group, and hence, designing for that group, was McQuaid and that didn't turn out well, at all.

I'm not trying to talk down GMG in any way, I am concerned though that they don't seem to have a good grasp on communication to their market, the perception of what communication they do perform or how to manage expectation, things that have caused serious problems for these sorts of projects in the past.

It worked yesterday.  Just search for Ngruk's posts.  They're all in that Green Moster Games (Curt Schilling) thread.

They also have some other reputable people there like R.A. Salvatore and Todd McFarlane working for the company.  They also have a lot of MMO vets, which can be a good or a bad thing considering 90% of the games out there are ass.

Anyway, you can't compare anyone to McQuaid, you just can't.  You also can't judge a game because the guy who owns the company posts on a board.  There were fundamental problems that lead to the crap vanguard was at launch, like the internal structure of Sigil from the organization of the developers, lack of QA, all the way to the top where everything was mismanaged.

My point was that I don't want to [judge a game by x reasons] it's just that there are no other options.

They seem to spring from the same source of unprofessionalism.

He is right though, FoH is in a world of its own.

It's not a world I would ever be a part of. It's not a world I would want my game associated with. It's like a furry community minus the fur.

The two bolded parts there? I don't consider them to be equal.

EDIT: Also, what LC said about FOH. That. FOH the guild and the board is a bunch of ass-felching titweasels. The amount of USEFUL feedback you'd get from a site like that will not be counterbalanced by the sheer retardation you will have to deal with on a daily or hourly basis.

I know there was some sort of fantasy on Schilling's part to get those two on board, but they are nowhere near as popular as they used to be. Salvatore can be quite the hack from time to time. And Todd, well Todd is just out of left field. There's a million better artists out there now who would've been more appropriate for an only game and most of them aren't one-style washed out dudes making less-than-awesome action figures and still riding their one big hit. Also, Atomic Comics pretty much sucks. So there's that. But I suppose you have to live in AZ to understand and know why that is.

What you have against Atomic Comics?

Regarding McFarlane, his 15 minutes ran out long ago…

What's in stock.
Pricing.
The pre-order pay everything up front system.
Their horrible method for keeping track of preorders. Which is especially a pain in the ass if they lose something. Which happens a lot on obscure shit.
The people they hire are mostly wretched, ugly, elitist punks across the board.

Only when he writes.

 :awesome_for_real:

Hey! Nobody around here ever posts screaming raves about stuff that sucks! er, um, just a little froth and spit maybe.

I loved everything from "f13 will provide more sensible discussion than FOH" right up to this point. Especially when it insulted the other big names behind 38 Studios.  :grin:

UnSub, part of the problem is there's only 4 ways to judge 38 Studios and their product right now.

1. Their reliance on big names that aren't big anymore. Not even a little.
2. The most information we have about the game is a codename and the fact the name of the company was changed.
3. A leader that posts to a community that exists in a very specific corner of the internet.
4. Said leaders comes and defends that corner of the internet.

What do you want from us? The guy is crafting his own image. I'm not quite getting it. I need more than 'MCFARLANE AM GOD, WE HAVE A REAL WRITER AND HAY I PLAYED EQ AND BASEBALL, I'M ONE OF YOU' and some posts from Schilling on FoH to convince me they have a product worth playing, let alone a product worth watching.

Edit: Basically, I like Schilling. He seems like a nice guy. I haven't met him yet, but whatever. Nothing he's done thus far has led us to believe the game will break any new ground or do anything interesting but he's done a whole lot that says 'my dream game is for ubers.'

 :rimshot:

I get it Schild. I really do. Copernicus is a great wanker name for a title no-one knows anything about. But I found it funny that f13 started down the path of saying that FOH isn't going to provide any kind of reasonable input and ended up in saying how useless / hack-like the other big names involved in 38 Studios are. We hardly proved a point (which I, in making these kind of posts, helped contribute to).

I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, just that where we started from and where we ended up amused me.

I know little about Schilling and don't care about baseball. The fact that he was well known for involvement in EQ AND is appealing to the FOH crowd makes me think Copernicus isn't going to interest me at all. I'll wait and see what it has to offer, but if it turns about to be fantasy elfland, it'll be a hard sell.

Actually, the point was they better have one hell of a game. The "big names" attached to the project aren't as big as they thought when he signed them on (in fact, it's a pretty obvious example of schilling being out of touch with artists and writers that matter. Finally, FoH is willing to engage in masturbatory bufoonery with him before there's any real information dump, whereas f13 isn't. On that same note, f13 has a completely different stigma than FoH. I wasn't saying we're better for him, I was simply saying why FoH was bad for him. He should know better. Games that appeal to them do not a million subs make.

Also, I was hoping I'd see Blackguard lurking so he could see I told him to tighten the leash  :grin:

Maybe they got McFarlane and Salvatore not because they are "big names" but because they thought they'd be good?

McFarlane is a huge baseball fan, I imagine he and Schilling were at least acquaintances previously, and in part thought it would be fun and productive to work together.

You are viewing this from a marketing angle, and clearly both McFarlane and Salvatore are being marketed, but that may not be the reason they were brought on. McFarlane providing high-level art direction doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

Theoretically it's not a bad idea. But the comic scene is chock full of more talented folks. Hopefully he'll bring some of that talent in. I don't know what his reputation is in that circle though. Maybe Velorath can shed some light on that.

I have to wonder about the Salvatore decision though.

His reputation in the comic scene is of a guy who used to be an artist but made better money creating an action figure empire. He's no longer a comic book guy, really.

One good thing to say about him: he typically hires pretty well, then learns from them. His scripts got a lot better after working with Alan Moore, for instance. Maybe not to 'great', but he's done very well for himself.

The biggest problem I have with him posting at FoH is that it leads me to believe he is designing a game for that crowd and I am not that crowd. If FoH likes it, I *know* I won't like it. If he is not designing a game I would like, fine he can do that. I do believe that I fit into the majority of MMO gamers quite a bit more than the FoH crowd does. Therefore, if FoH likes it, it will not be a huge success in my opinion.

It's kind of silly labeling a game before one piece of information on a game is released. 

But I also hope that Curt doesn't go the way of EQness.  No thanks.

The only person in this thread I've ever even heard of is Curt Schilling.  And him only because a company I used to work for managed some athletes (mostly hockey and basketball) and I also used to work with Pat Croce who never ever shut up about sports, so I got in the habit of reading the sports section.  For the names, not the scores.  I still watch sports (not baseball), I just don't bother to read about them.  Even after reading this thread, I still don't know why it matters where he posts.  He has people in his company who have experience with MMOs, right?  Won't they have more of an impact on his decisions than a bunch of people from FOH?  Or anywhere?  No one ever listens to the people who play these games first time out, anyway.  It's mostly only after their game goes pear shaped that they sometimes come around. 

I looked up the other two guys and have never read anything they've done, but I did play the Icewind Dale pc games and liked the first one.  Or maybe it was the second one. 

You're getting way ahead of yourself here. I've read the entirity of that thread and it's obvious Curt isn't doing as you falsely perceive.

Curt is generating hype by presenting his business savvy. He talks about the guidelines 38 works by in producing the game without ever talking about the game itself.

 A lot of people have questioned his choices of McFarlane and Salvatore and his ability to pick up gaming producers they think were critical for any good that was done with SOE games. The only thing Curt has done, that could be claimed to be as pandering to the FOH crowd, is getting those devs they liked; but it's hard to knock him for that, since they do have experience as devs, and where available and willing to move to Boston, and Curt from his remarks has met them in the past, why go for unknown quantities when known ones are available?


The only thing that can be questioned about Curt right now is how he operates as a business man and not specifically how 38S actually designs a game.

On occassion he puposefully shifts discussion to talk about game design but so far he has gone against the grain or outright challenged half the assertions FOH members have made.

Just to throw in a positive comment for a change-

I like that Schilling is a fan/player turned executive. I remember reading articles about he and Doug Glanville grabassing around Butcherblock, and was excited that someone well known was just a regular gamer.  I HOPE that he can give feedback about what is fun and what sucks, and have a positive outcome on the game. It will certainly be worth keeping an eye on. However, as schild points out- if they are targeting FoH types as their core demographic, I am 90% sure I want nothing to do with it. My free time is going to be taking a significant hit come Thanksgiving or so, and I will have even less tolerance for poopsock mechanics.

Are the majority of FOH still poopsockers, or is it just a vocal minority?  It certainly seemed to only be a very vocal minority with several sychophants the last time I perused their forums for a length of time.   ElGallo.. you post there a lot, (or did..)  I summon you! Clarify plox.

Around here there's a great deal of piling-on against anyone who raids or enjoys DIKU PvE for what is is, so I find you all just as biased in an entirely different direction.  Yes, things can take too much time if you fall in with an ULTRAHARDCORE group who declares "You MUST play xyz hours with abc% of attendence!" but there's plenty of games (not just WoW) where you can find casual groups to dick around with the endgame PvE stuff at your leisure.

That said, yes, it shouldn't take as much time as it does to experience all the endgame.  If you say your game is deisgned for people with 15 hours a week to play it, that playtime should encompass ALL activities associated with the endgame.  Not just the actual killing thing part, but the farming and pre-encounter orginization (group setup, travel, etc. Meta things like "omg xiro is late" or folks shitty at orginizing obviously add to this.) should be part of that timeframe as well.   Right now they AREN'T.  Yeah, you can raid all the way to Illidian in WoW on 15 hours a week easily.. but you'll have to find a group that'll let you do it with broken shit and no consumables. Good luck there.

99.9% of the people on the FoH boards aren't in FoH...besides, all the poopsockers moved to Elitist Jerks or the various other games' analogue sites.

This is true.

FOH is basically a forum now for all MMOs with a very unfocused discussion topic.  Everyone plays MMOs there but with varying play times, from 15 hours a week (expoopsockers now grown up) to 60 hours a week.  It's just full of idiots most of the time.

However EJ is full of hardcore players that do nothing but play excel and WOW.

In my defense, I've always thought McFarlane was a hack, I only read Salvatore recently and was horrified, and Curt Schilling really is the only reason I'm in the least bit interested in the game.

The boss is someone who liked old-timey EQ and they're doing PR at FoH.  It's Vanguard 2.0 until proven otherwise.

Trolling?

More like stating logic. I was thinking the same thing, mostly, because we know nothing of the games real design, we just know he wants FoH to play it, bad.

Well see that's where you're wrong.  He doesn't want FOH to play it bad, he's just talking about the game with a community of MMO people.  He's actually not even talking about his game at all, he's just talking about MMO features and designs on a very casual level.

You can't just say because Curt posts about his MMO on FOH so therefore it's VG2.0, because that's just stupid.  It's the same thing as saying Obama is a crazy black man because he went to Trinity Church.

There was an important part here.

"until proven otherwise."

No, it isn't.

I like Curt Schilling because he brought Advanced Squad Leader back from the dead (http://www.multimanpublishing.com/index1.php)!  :awesome_for_real:

I tend to forget everyone here is incredibly cynical in a comedic tragedy sort of way.

Is it wrong of me to admit that I actually liked much of McFarlane's work? Maybe it's the home Country fanboism.

I just found this gem.

I wonder if he knows that "ganking", and game design go hand in hand. PvP is not about ganking to a LOT of people.

Anyway, with a comment like that, i can basically write this game off now. Then again, that could have been an attempt at a joke, i am never sure about such things on the internets.

Or, you know, the other MMO made by people who liked (parts of) old-timey EQ and did PR @ FoH.  :grin:

I like how I was giving Kurt shit about this game on like page 2 of this thread and ya all jump all over me. Now everyones on the bandwagon?

The shiny wore off. See the early Age of Conan threads.

As an aside, the only time I read the FoH forums is when I want to know exactly how bad raiding in game XYZ is. I like doing the "accomplishments" to "pain" conversions mentally while reading recaps.

You're still in BoB, right?  :grin:

From what I've observed you should take that at face value as a serious statement, though I'm curious what he was responding to at that time.

No I was downgraded to BoB pet.

http://www.38watch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67

some brief glimpses of the game concept art

Let's just say I know which one I'd bet on.

Really hard to see those pictures, but they are definitely not too brown. Hopefully the vibrant nature of the art will translate well into the engine.

So far, I am feeling that I won't be able to get into this game. Reading Curt's stuff on FOH also leads me to believe that he is really pulling a Brad and talking nothing but high end concepts with no real meat.

We need some meat, dammit!

good times.

Some concept art:

(http://www.tentonhammer.com/system/files/images/Cavern.preview.png)

(http://www.tentonhammer.com/system/files/images/Crops.preview.png)

From TTH: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/39993

And a few others:

(http://common.allakhazam.com/images/news/Night-thumb.jpg)

(http://common.allakhazam.com/images/news/Trees-thumb.jpg)

It's like the bastard child of WoW and Dragon's Lair. 

Can someone do something other than cartoonish crayola landscapes or is that the new thing?

I for one prefer a styled art rather than going for realism.

I'm fine with stylized.  Let's just try something that isn't a) anime or b) Tolkien-esque.

What an example of something else?  I kind of like the Tolkieneske style.  Never seen it in a realized 3D world though.

LotRO did a pretty decent job.  Unfortunately, the vanilla gameplay doesn't make up for the look of the game. 

If I'm paying an artist, I'd expect them to create something fresh.  If I could give you an example, it wouldn't very well be "new", would it?

I would play in a world that looked like that.  I even have my hat all picked out!
(http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/cs/fun/mousecat_carol_sophiemanor.jpg)

Seriously, though, I like cartoony worlds like WoW.  I would want more character customisation, though, and lots of available hats. 

Yeah, but that fresh has to be able to be supported by hardware. In an MMO's case, it needs to be behind single player hardware requirements to make elbow room.

You would be surprised how much memory footprint can be reduced using simple, or indexed color palettes as opposed to "Photorealism" need of many many colors per texture ETC...

Then there is the issue of instant recognition. Or color coding your game play, somewhat like in a lot of games, the path is marked by the brightest areas ETC..

By example I mean a past game that you thought had a good new art style for the time.

I think you're missing my point.  I'd prefer something fresh and new.  By that, I'm saying make something that doesn't look anything like what we've already seen. 

My personal preference is for realism, but I'm fine with stylized as long as it's customizable and has a unique feel. 

Realism thus far has been show to do 2 things for MMOs:

1) Make them look like crap. 

AND/OR

2) Make them nearly unplayable on most current PCs.  By the time it is playable and you've worked out the kinks, people have moved on.

I like stylized.  It holds up better over time, is easier on your system, and doesn't fall into a lot of the traps that a photo-realistic look does. I think anyone that attempts a photo-realistic look in a MMO is doomed until the hardware and technology can deal with it.  Any PVP game that attempts it is just fucking batty.

Anyhow... concept art.  Lets flash freeze this conversation until we an actual in game screen shot.

I have to agree with Ras.  Although I eventually became bored with the game, I really enjoyed the cartoonish look of WoW.  I also like the comic-y look of CoX.  I even liked the look of L2 more than EQ2, LOTRO and even AoC.  Except for the boobies.  They looked too big and hard and more likely to cause pain than pleasure, for both the toucher and touchee.

Like Nebu, I would love to have something fresh and new, too.  Even if I have to put up with what I might consider a boring, realistic look.

What we are doing, from my perspective as a lifelong MMO player, is fresh and is new and is unique and different. But, having said that, that's just my biased opinion.

At the end of the day it's going to be on you to feel that way, or not. When all is said and  done that's what I banked on this team being able to create and deliver and I've seen nothing to make me believe otherwise in the past 2 years.

Interesting. I would assume popularity in their fields to be, well for RA, books sold and for Todd revenues generated. Both of those would be decent indicators of their popularity, or lack of. Last I checked RA's last release was #4 on the NYT best selling lists and the revenue generated by TMP was significant last year, industry leading if I am not mistaken.

I get that people don't like them, you being one, that's cool, but also please remember this important point. Todd is not making his game, RA is not either and probably most importantly I am not making my game.

R.A. was tasked with the creation of a fantasy world and all the things that go with such a world from back story to iconic characters, and up through today (in my biased opinion) he's delivered in a huge way.

Todd was tasked with mentoring our young artists and helping oversee the artistic vision of the world and the IP and through today the same sentiments as RA in that regard.

Me? This is my baby. This is my gamble that I could build a world renowned team and be a part of that team outside the game of baseball. If you know anyone inside the industry I'd ask you to ask them about the team (who's bios you can read and see on our website) and whether or not they are A) Very talented B) Have the chops to deliver a AAAA title (I don't do the AAA thing because AAA in my day job is a rung below the worlds best:)

Us three are what we are, Todd won't write, RA won't draw and I won't code but I think when you add us three to a team spearheaded by someone like Brett Close and realize we all know what we bring to the table and at the end of the day it's about creating an environment that facilitates this incredibly talented artists/engineers/designers doing what they do better than they ever have. When you hear people talking about your company and people and comparing the atmosphere to the early days at Google you can't help but think you did some of the things you intended from the start.

But again, at the end of the day we have to deliver and that is the thing that makes me rest easy. We will deliver, we really don't have a choice. The financial and personal investment I've made allows only that as an outcome. That might hinder a release date or two:) and it certainly has kept my mouth shut A WHOLE LOT longer than I wanted to about this, but it will, at the end of this, deliver.

Oh and one more thing. If you do enjoy Salvatore, as I obviously do, the thought of being able to live and adventure in a world that HE created is pretty damn cool.
Well to me anyway.

 :roll:


At any rate, what Rasix says.  Photorealism is a dead end.  Any provider that can supply a novel aesthetic gives them a technical and marketing edge.  Technical because you won't need Unreal or similar investment to run it and maintain.  And Marketing because of the obvious distinctiveness your service gets.  And it removes you from competing against the next Crysis etc.

I'm not sure though this is an easier path for a start-up, because the investment in novel art is still large and I would've thought buying something like the Alchemy engine would still bring with it some inherent design constraints.  For example, the old LOD feature in Oblivion.  But in the end a novel, non-photorealistic look is better.

It makes me squee-y that people enjoy the world of cartoon-y graphics and there are people making them.  I really like the look of that concept art posted.  Although I've never read anything by R A Salvatore, I love gaming in those sorts of world.  I'm just not a sci fi - fantasy book sort of person.  Maybe some Iain Banks or George R. R. Martin, now and then. You'd all laugh at the boring sorts of books I read, although I like a bit of mystery or horror once in a while.

If this turns out to be another fuckin WoW clone...

Please don't eat these words. We may not always act like it, but I'm pretty sure most everyone around here is pulling for you. You are doing what most of us wished we could do since our first days in UO/EQ/MUDS. You are spearheading your own vision of a game. Hell, I give ya props for even trying and putting your money where your mouth is. If I could give you one piece of advice, learn from other games mistakes. Steal excellent systems from other games, no need to reinvent the wheel. Make it immersive, fun, and with some good (MEANINGFUL!!!!!!!!) PVP and my money is your money.

EDIT Ok well that was like 5 pieces of advice but who's counting anyways!

I dig the concept art.


Lets see how they translate it to a low-poly-real-time-rendering environment.

It's your sandbox and investment.  If this is something that you've always wanted to create, I applaud you for going after it.  Not many people have the drive or the financial backing to achieve their dreams as you have.  

I think the point being made here is that while Salvatore is a successful author, that doesn't necessitate that his readers overlap in any way with the target MMO demographic.  From my experience in MMO's, I'd be amazed if any beyond about 5% have ever read a book, let alone a Salvatore book.  The next time you log onto WoW walk up to a random level 70 player and ask them questions about game lore.  Most don't even bother to read the quest information or NPC text.  This is possibly the reason that the storytelling quality in most MMO's has gone down over the years... there's no incentive to invest in it.  

If it happens that you make a game that depicts a FUN version of the Salvatore world AND attracts the standard illiterate gamer, then kudos.  

I'd argue the opposite:) How many versions of Drizzt name have you seen in the MMO's you play? I've seen a billion different ways to spell it.
There is crossover and I would argue it's higher than 5%. We can agree to disagree for now, but we'll likely find out one way or another before we launch our game just how many Salvatore fans plan MMO's and are planning on trying ours.
Same for Todd's following.

I think (hope.. pray..) that Nebu was engaging in hyperbole.

Don't forget that the standard belief at f13 is that anyone whose existence doesn't begin and end inside the confines of your own head is a total moron.

People have been trained not to read quest text. Text is obsolete, Audio is where it at.




Uh. No.

Sorry.  This is correct.  It takes about 20 seconds in the general chat channel of any online game for me to lose all faith in humanity. 

I'm certain that there exists an overlap between Salvatore consumers and online gamers.  I'm just not sure that's a large enough number to base a development budget off of.  Of course you guys must have done the market research or you wouldn't have made it this far. 

I'm just looking at it like this: Everyone has heard of Lord of the Rings.  Look at their subscription numbers.  Are you aiming this at a smaller niche?  I'm all for niche games. 

I am really pulling for you guys. Salvatore I haven't been able to read since I was like 20, as it just is so emo and over done. I did really enjoy his early work though way back in the day.

I am also a fan of Todd, well, of the HBO Spawn in particular. I hope he can bring some of that to the Artwork.

I would like to add one more rule for you. Make sure it is good and fucking ready when you release it. If you have any sort of doubts, please go see the Age of Conan forum here.

Uh. Yes:


Everyone here thinks they are a genius and the rest of the world are fools.  It's not a bad thing, it's what makes most of you so lovable.

I certainly don't think I'm a genius.  I just like being around people that know the difference between two, to, and too or your and you're. 

Glad to see that gehrig isn't the only person who misses a little hyperbole now and again. ;)

Now that I'm home and can actually see the art (fuck you, url-blocking work server!)   I like the style. It reminds me of Kingdom Hearts a bit and some of the Dofus style.  I think 10-15 years down the line we'll be able to point it out as "American Anime-influenced" and it'll look kitchy and dated.  Dated in the same sense as 70s and 80's cartoons do now and you can tell when something was animated by its style; but it's good for right now.

Please tell me you aren't counting on the blatant unoriginality and rampant retardation in video game players to make your game a success.  :drill:

EDIT: Also, I am a genuis and the rest of the world are mouth-breathing fucking retards who can barely manage to masturbate in private instead of rabidly stroking themselves on the steps of the capital while smeared with their own feces and anyone who says any differently is one of THEM.

Y'know, I haven't mentioned this game to my wife.. maybe I should.  She bought Salvatore's latest novel and was gushing to me about it the other day. (OOo Cattie-Brie and Drizzt hooked-up!)   I'll admit to a certain fondness for the older books myself.  The same sort of fondness some of you lot have for those crappy Weiss & Hickman novels.  God those are shit.

 :drill:

Hey, if they've found a way to monetize Barrens chat, of course they should run with that!

I do like the art, which is all I know about this title (other than the fact that I still haven't forgiven Curt for edging out the Giants by 2 games in 2001. That may be enough to keep me from buying the game!)  :heartbreak:

The difference being that when you think this it's actually true.

I should probably stop being a dick and comment on the art. I'm just so good at the former.  :awesome_for_real:

I like the artwork, and I'm certainly no fan of the photorealistic approach in MMOG's. What it looks like means a good bit less to me than that it actually runs without my computer handing me a crayon and telling me to "draw it my damn self." WoW always felt like I was walking around in an animated movie, and Copernicus concept art reminds me of that style as well.

But really, concept art doesn't do much for me. Details and gameplay screenshots, that's what I need.

 :ye_gods:
 :sad_panda:
 :oh_i_see:


As for the art- stylized is ok, but cartoony is really fucking annoying. Just thinking of WoW and the goddamned shoulder armor makes me stabby.

I am rooting for a good game, my personal tastes for the creative folks aside. If it is another WoW clone I am going to dance on its grave, however.

I really like the concept art the more I look at it. Will it translate, donno. But it really reminds me of the early 80s cartoons. Mix that with some blood and mature content. Ill buy it.

I know what you're talking about.  What I'm asking is what was the last game that made you say "Oh thats fresh and new!"? 

The concept art looks fine.  There just isn't much to say until we know more.  Also, I don't care what he says, I'll continue to imagine Schilling, Salvatore, and McFarlane making this game all by themselves.  Just running around in circles in front of a bunch of PCs like the Three Stooges going "SHIT DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO CODE?"  The image just amuses me.

I can only imagine the number of times "like WoW" and "like everquest" have been used while designing this game. It's already clear that it's a train wreck in the making.

I'd say Grim Fandango.  Considering the era it was made, it really inspired me.

Audio takes way too long. I always skip it and read the text instead :drill:

The concept art doesn't interest me (although I saw a lot of similarities between that art and the concept art for the Lego MMO in the field shot - coincidence?  :awesome_for_real:)

Really, it's all meaningless until 38 Studios starts releasing in-game footage. Concept art is pretty meaningless, screenshots are increasingly meaningless, so outside of actually playing the game the next best thing is seeing it in action.

And after that, the only questions that matter is "when is the closed beta?", "when is the open beta?" and "when do you launch?".

I'm trying to keep an open mind about Copernicus, but thus far it looks like generic_western_fantasy_MMO_345.

No doubt.  If they don't give me a way to skip the audio and read text I usually drop the game before the first 5 hours.  I don't care how much you paid for those voice actors.. they talk too fucking slow.

So what you are saying is that, much like me, you are too old for shit to be relevant to you anymore.

It sucks getting old.

I don't even have speakers plugged into my PC.  I generally find the quest text in these games to be too painful to read so mostly I just click next or whatever until I can hit accept.  I figure the quest log will give me the important information and if it doesn't I can find it on the internet.

Holy shit Schilling, get an upgrade for those bracers. You're making my eyes bleed here.

But more on topic, I posted your interview with Jace Hall on our guild forums here..

http://www.onlyhollow.com/thegrubs/viewtopic.php?t=1744

I mention this only because one thing occurred that literally surprised the shit out of me.. Almost every one of my guys took you credibly.

See, our guys have been together for a LONG time (going on ten years for many of them) and they are normally picky, cynical, and extremely full of shit. When I told em about your venture here, the jokes started flowing. I posted that interview, and after that most of them put this project on their "now watching " list. The reason? The shirt. One of my guys summed it up beautifully. "If a guy who has that much cash will wear a billboard for WoW tanks on his chest for a public interview, he's gotta be legit."

Heh, good show ole boy.

Hehe funny you mentioned bracers, upgraded after our 2 1/2 hour Kara run tonight!

Wait, Earthen Ring?  You play on an RP server?  I'm so telling.  The other jocks are totally going to beat you up.

That's a really big Sig you've got there Curt.

I should so make the Anakin meter my sig.

Fairly innocuous.  I see those all of the time.  It gets bad when someone decides to have a sig featuring every single one of their characters.

Start stam stacking. You're overcapped on defense.

Am I allowed to have a sig again?  (http://www.sheknows.com/graphics/emoticons/blink.gif)

Like to put your "money" where your mouth is? You define train wreck, and let's see if we can't find something in common, and I'll bet you something VERY cool it is anything but that.

I already did the first:) Had that sig for my 3 70's and my up and comer, got pasted enough and lambasted enough to remove 3 of them:)

I do play on a RP server but it's not even remotely RP in any way, not that I have seen.

Ya, stam stacking is incomming but, and thankfully so, I have saved a few of my pieces of gear that were less +DEF and more Stam or Agi than some of my current items. I also have a pretty decent (IMO) set of DPS gear saved for that day that will NEVER come when I switch to a DPS spec for a raid....

Here a good question based on the current conversation.

How "Gear based" is your game going to be?

Keeping in mind that any answer you give is going to piss off about half the people here.  Either they will complain that the gear doesn't mean enough (see: AoC subforums) or that gear means to much (see:  WoW subforums).

Then they will all run off in a screaming tizzy and resub to EvE for a week.

Earthen Ring is what Bat Country was on at launch.

sush.

Don't mind LC as he's a hardcore PVP-type.  Anything other than "Skill" advancement (player like FPS games or Character like UO/ EvE) is going to piss him off because it involves PvE grinding and levels.  He's not the demographic you seem to be going after.

Anybody who ever killed Ragnaros knows that storytelling in MMOs isn't done in quest text.  And really, in WoW, that kind of storytelling started in Wailing Caverns and The Deadmines, and continues to date.  You can have the greatest story ever told, but if you don't engage me with it through more than one means I simply won't care.

As far as realism goes it's pretty much a retarded argument.  People who clamor for 'realism' are only fooling themselves.  People don't play MMOs for the reality.  They play them for the escape from reality they provide.  If anything, I worry from those screens that this game won't be stylized and/or artistic enough.  Don't make your game look 'real.'  Make it look 'good.'

Also, to Schilling, well... 2 things.

1.  Fuck you for doubling up the Giants in the playoffs on 3 days rest or whatever that was when you were with Arizona.  I hope you fall off a cliff.

2.  Finish your game no matter what.  You can McQuaid up all the message boards on the internet, but if the game isn't done when it comes out, then dudes won't play.


P.S.  I'm NOT rooting for you!  CLIFF SIR --------->

THIS.

I'm guessing you follow him around everywhere he posts? Show me where he touched you...

I thought I made that obvious.

And, no.  I don't.

Yeah, same here, I really like the concept art - I hope they can keep that feel in a game engine that works and scales well.

Also the 38 Studios booth at Comic Con was just a tease. They very nicely told me NOTHING :)

I'm always more interested in projects that are fueled by a personal passion. Often in gaming we see a lot of "me too" projects that come and go. Curt's game is definitely a product of passion. Not just the big names involved but the level of their involvement are very promising. Listening to several of Curt's interviews and even one interview with Todd makes it evident that Curt isn't just investing in "this new MMO thing everyone is talking about" and how Todd isn't just designing characters but staying on in a more creative director roll. I'm excited to see how this game developes and what the final product is, and like morfiend said, please please please do not release it until you are absolutely confident it's done.

P.S. I'll probably get shit for this but... What are the chances it can run on a Mac as well?

He touched him on the no championships since 1954, that's where!

You looked that up on the internets.

:(

Nuh uh :(

It will

That statement, plus the smile in your avatar, make me thing bad things.

Mac.  That is a plus.


Ok, so personal fortune and passion aside we have a good approach to graphic design, good engine (cause it's multiplatform) which isn't trying to out-Valve Valve, lots of gamey ideas (Schwayder).  I'm now interested.  More please.

hehe, no matter how the conversation goes here, or on FOH, or any board for that matter, the same things are going to happen.
1) Danuser and Roberts are going to wince up until, and sometimes after, reading my posts.
2) A sect of people are going to hammer whatever I say
3) A sect of people are going to be excited about what I say
4) A sect of people are going to utter a quote almost exactly like this "Shut the hell up. You talk talk talk and haven't shown us anything, don't tell us anymore until we can see a full blown live playest on youtube"
5) A sect of people are going to say "Ya but I hate R.A., he's a hack and he sucks"
6) A sect of people are going to say "Ya but Todd McFarlane is involved, it's going to suck suck suck.."
7) Two sects of people are going to oppose those in points 5 and 6
8) Someone is going to give me 733T PWN U business advice in one of the following quotes:
    A) Don't publish your game until it's finished (as if I didn't already know that)
    B) Don't have quests, they suck, Exp sucks, everything sucks but especially WOW, don't make it like WoW, or EQ, or EQ2, or AOC, or etc. etc.
    c) Take my advice, hire the folks on this board, we are so much smarter than the people in this industry it's funny
    D) Don't try and beat WoW, you will screw up if you do
    E) Don't make another fantasy MMO
    etc. etc.

All of that will in some form or another, continue to happen as I interact in these forums.

This is all I can really tell you. As a gamer, I am in no way different than many of you. I am deeply passionate and deeply devoted to playing and enjoying MMO's. I've been playing them since the early UO days so I think I know a little bit about the genre and about what's been good and what hasn't, it's not really rocket science to see how many people are playing what games. I have been adamant since day 1 and told this to anyone that will listen. I am NOT making MY GAME. With that being said I am not throwing my cash on the table and telling a group of people I didn't know "Go make a cool game" either.

You have no idea how much I want to share right now about what we are doing. I have however, been taught by the Danusers, Roberts, and others of the world what can happen if i don't listen to them in crucial spots, and believe it or not I KNOW I am nowhere near the smartest guy in the room (except when it's a 1-1 with Danuser).

My family here has achieved, they've produced, most more than once. I trust them and I think they trust me to lead them. Leading them is about creating an environment that facilitates them doing way more than they ever dreamed they could, and from a first hand source I can tell you it's happening.

Yes that's a tease, and for now that's all I have for you. I won't and can't tell you how our class/race/skills/world/PVP or any of that is working or thought of because there is a TOTAL NO WIN in having those discussions with people that aren't 'eyes on' this stuff 24/7.

There will soon come a time when people outside this studio will lay eyes on our product to begin giving us vital objective feedback and we have industry studs to organize and oversee that process.

At the end of the day someone here really did put it best. I've been blessed enough to be in position to go from thinking about making a game, and talking about making a game, to putting my money where my mouth is and actually create an IP that has its core focus as an online Fantasy MMO, and damn if that isn't cool as hell.

I didn't see anything about a sect of people demanding that you abandon the DIKU/leveling advancement system. As their self-appointed leader, I hereby demand that you find another form of advancement. If you can get something like the breadth of skills that EVE has combined with advancement by use of the skills themselves (and not time, or # of foozles killed, etc), I will STFU about Salvatore. Deal?  :awesome_for_real:

You forgot a very important sect.

The one that thinks it's awesome a gamer gets to follow his dream and is putting his money where his mouth is but seems to be forgetting he's not a designer and is talking a big game in all the wrong places (in uncontrolled environments to boot!) for someone whose resume has an ERA on it and not Shipped Games.

My recommendation? Unless it's an interview or article, have your CRM cuff your hands. Yes, you could very well impress everyone and blow us away - but the more Awesome you make it sound or seem without anything to show - you're only going to let people down. Feel free to stick around and talk games, for real, but if I may humbly suggest from the designers who have gone down this same path - scale it back. Pimping yourself can do a lot more harm than it can help. Pimping is not PR, irregardless of whether you're a member of communities or not.

Also, teasing is amateur hour. But you knew that.

This is the only good objective feedback I can think of right now.

Edit: Sorry for the low blow at the beginning, but you know, lol.

Edit 2: Whoa, missed a sentence on your post. Are you sure your first misstep wasn't going with Fantasy? I can't be sure, since I'm not familiar with the genre, but I've heard we have - you know - Enough Of Those. Also, WoW.

I don't pimp myself and I don't and haven't engaged in telling you this is the greatest game ever. I certainly won't post to downplay the product and given the total absence of content in my posts the only thing I can talk about is the excitement in what I am seeing.
Cuffing just isn't in the cards and it really is on me to live and learn, which I think I have done and will continue to do.
I have always enjoyed interacting with the communities of the different MMO forums and see no reason why that would ever stop.
As a gamer first and foremost I will always interact in this sort of discussion and since I have founded a company that's making an MMO some of the topics and discussions here might be relevant to something we are doing, you never know.

I'm part of WAP's sect.  Down with DIKU leveling!  Since I like Salvatore, I'll provide balance and remind my fearless leader of this promise should he slip up.

Should we not get our way, I'll be sure to join as many of those loud-mouthed groups as possible, even if they're contradictory. ;D

If you've been around MMO gaming since the early UO days, then you can understand why we would feel compelled to scream this at any MMO industry person within sight of our posts.  It seems self-evident, but for some reason almost nobody is able to pull it off.  I don't think it's because developers are all bad people who like slapping the public in the face with unfinished work.  There are reasons.

It's not just a case of saying "finish ur game lol".  It's a case of reminding you that overcoming the pitfalls that have left probably the majority of previous MMO efforts as piles of steaming unfinished shit at release isn't just an important consideration, it's basically THE consideration.  Even if your game has to be less cool in order to be complete at release.

So Curt is there a selling point to your game? As has been said before, fantasy diku's are a dime a dozen and WoW is the 800 lb. gorilla. Is there something from the design you can boil down into a phrase that you're excited about?

FFA PVP?
Skill Based Advancement?
Non-grindy loot system?
Exploration-based advancement?
Sandbox?

Anything?

Hrmmmm...

All my WoW toons are on Alliance side Earthen Ring.  I haven't decided if I'll cut Forkball a break if I ever see him red.   :grin:

Well, it seems as if your skin is thick enough for the gaming world.  I'm interested to see how the game turns out.  It should prove to be an interesting ride.  

Maybe another lead will come around and be all chatty and his game will crash and burn before GMG gets their game out and will make my point for me. God knows we've had enough of them in the past.

Montague, frankly, he shouldn't answer questions like that.  He should say almost nothing until he knows for sure that he won't have to cut anything.  Or if he does, until he knows exactly what has to be cut.  If we never knew Feature X was supposed to be there, we can't bitch when it doesn't make release.

Some of the examples I gave are probably too specific but I'm speaking on more of a core design standpoint rather than features. Like WoW could have been described in very general terms as "Like EQ but without spawn camping". I just don't see how yet another fantasy MMO with a nascent IP is going to make any sort of buzz without a selling point.

Hopefully the selling point will be "fun".  Seems enough games forget that one that it would be a hit.

Yes.  If more games were able to capture "TEH FUN" then we'd be off playing them rather than frequenting forums to scrutinize the industry. 

Weird, I think I just heard the siren call of Soul Calibur IV.

I think you're covered under section 8b.
Gamers and internet trolls have nothing on disgruntled sports fans.  I'd say the man probably laughs at the slings and arrows of the internet.

Quests don't inherently suck. Giving me a quest to kill 5 wolf pups, then a quest to kill 5 wolf juveniles, and then 5 wolf sub adults, and then 5 adults, and then the pack leader, while doling out XP and level limited loot all the way? That sucks.

Truth.  His normal trolls are 300lb drunk fans with jagged beer bottle shards.  We are 120lb corpse white college kids who are at our computers not wearing pants. 

I weigh more than 120 pounds these days.  :drill:

Pants are over rated.

With or without pants?

Some former baseball player turned games developer seems to be a wee bit of a sect addict.  I'm not naming names.

I prefer to think of it as a sectS addiction  :drillf:

If you don't immediately get teh funneh, say it out loud.

Is that a shadow UO logo behind the green happy face?

That's what I meant!    :oh_i_see:

Have you approached Viin Deisle also? I think you should get as many big names on the project as you can. An actor would add... Well...someone who loves D&D....

But the "s" is ESSENTIAL!  YOU MUST HAVE THE S!!!!!!

If you really want to interact with this MMO community here, then maybe you should try becoming part of it.  Post in other threads.  Hang out.  Get to know people, etc.  That's how communities work.  I think you'd be surprised how much more successful that would be, rather than telling me how awesome your team is over and over because it's all you can say.

I made a picture instead.

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3152/newtasteiw5.png)

 :heart:

I liked New Coke :awesome_for_real:

HA!  And here I was expecting not to laugh tonight!

I think Schilling already has the cards stacked against him when it comes to interacting on MMO forums just because of the sad, bullshit-stewn wake that Brad McQuaid left behind.

I dunno, I'm not as jaded as most of the folks here. I still like the diku/leveling model, I think it works and I think variations on that theme can still be very successful if done with the right amount of care, knowledge, and aesthetic sensibility.

Lucky you, since there are a dozen or so games out there for you to choose from. Some of us are hoping that someone (anyone) will have the stones to buck the trend and make something different.

That would be true if I had some sort of evil plan behind doing this. I don't. For the most part I am no different than most here with the exception of being able to throw a baseball a lot harder than all of you and the fact I don't throw out F bombs like I used to since I have 4 kids and grew up a little bit. Other than that there isn't much difference in me and most here. I post because I enjoy playing MMO's.

Someone earlier mentioned I'd fit in better if I posted around the forums. I am not looking to 'fit in' in that manner I don't think. I post in forums that are of interest to me. The ONLY game that's got my attention outside of WoW right now is Sins of a Solar Empire (which I don't think I can recommend highly enough).

Curt, this is part of the problem people are having.

Meaning? People are having problems that WoW is the game I am playing? Oh I have dabbled in ALL of the MMO's to date. From UO to EQ, EQ2, AC, GW, DAOC, TR, all, but none has hooked me to stay other than EQ, EQ2 and WoW.
The change over from EQ2 to WoW was one made kicking and screaming at the time, but I laugh at now. Anyone calling WoW carebear has not experienced t4 to t6 raids.
But if people have a 'problem' with me not playing that much, well not much I can do about that.

What other games did you play and enjoy in the last year?

I enjoyed Sins of a Solar Empire. Why are we grilling curt?

I'm not grilling him. I'm just interested in his gaming habits. I'm interested in Everyone's Gaming Habits.

Ah, ok. Was meaning the flurry of postings razing him. but yeah, it would be interesting to know what hes into.


Here my question:

What MMOs have you played. a list would be good. and perhaps a one sentience about what you liked, and disliked.

If so inclined.  :grin:

Bloodworth, my question is far more interesting. He's discussed his MMOG habits a lot more than anything else. Thx for totally interrupting though.

 8-) I hope he answers both.

This is my plan should I win the Powerball, but that $2 a week just isn't turning over like I'd hoped.  Damn hillbillies need to stop playing and let me win.  :drill:

Yes, yes, there's better uses for the cash than a game.. but all winners blow their money in spectacular fashion. I choose mine to be a more public spectacle.

Heh. That is one of my fantasies too. Wild West MMOG with PvP and skill based advancement! Now, I just need to win a couple of hundred million...

Yeah.  As if you guys would bother with any of that if you win the lottery.  You'll be too busy driving fast cars, flying to your island holiday homes and buying awesome toys like this:

(http://www.newluxuryitems.com/uploads/Image/Perini%20Navi%20Yachts.jpg)

Especially WAP.

I got my hopes up with Frontier 1859 (http://frontier1859.com/mmorpg/index.php), but I've given up.  Hurry up and win the lottery.  I want this game too. 

Does fallen earth count?

Fallen Earth isn't a game yet.

Edit: I'm surprised someone hasn't started a "Infinite money and time, what MMOG would you make?" thread.

You should do that!  I would but I'm tired and you're closer to the internet.

For the past few years I always had a game or two that I needed to quench my gaming thirst as we traveled on the team plane. The last few years it was Rome:Total War and the Expansions which led to Total War 2. Company of Heroes was in there. This year it was, believe it or not Warcraft 3:) I never played beyond the original Warcraft and I didn't get too far on the first pass. I had a blast finally learning some of the WoW back story and being able to log in and see it.

Sins of the Solar Empire is my current non-WoW fixation. Fantastic game, incredibly well polished and as well done a UI as one could possibly hope for when managing potentially endless force size and composition.
MMOs?

Well again, it was UO and EQ. The switch from UO to EQ was as hard as the switch from EQ2 to WoW was for me.

I am a die hard wargamer by nature. Check out www.multimanpublishing.com if you are by chance an old grognard board gamer. That's my small publishing company I've owned for about 15 years now.

38 Studios owns the IP to about 95% of the games there with hopes to flesh that out into a full blown online wargamming community someday.

Problem with me is that I am ADD in a bad way and OCD a bit as well. When I lock onto a hobby it's usually at 150% of my time and attention when I was not playing baseball.

Some of my favorite older games? Games that will date me?

Well my first love and probably funnest memories are with Wizardry. Was and always will be the one that hooked me forever.

Anyone else totally smitten by X-Com? Loved that one.

Was big into SSR and their military stuff. Age of Sail was literally the E-version of Wooden Ships and Iron Men, a game I loved.

Advanced Squad Leader was my favorite, and still is, board game of all time.

I think my favorite RPG of all time would be a Curse of the Azure Bonds. IMO it was the first and best story I've ever been allowed to play out.

Baldur's Gate, BF 1942 I loved. Castle Wolfenstein, the FIRST ONE!! And the new one was awesome as well.

Only console games I got hooked on were Madden. I love the realism thing in sports sims.

APBA baseball was something I wasted thousands of hours on as a kid.

So, you're ADD and OCD. Much like me.

But......... you don't play console games? Do you just not enjoy them?


THIS IS FASCINATING.

Where's Jain Zar? Did we actually chase that cranky old weirdo away?

Not really no. There are some great ones, Bioshock, Halo, NBA2k, but once I realized the depth a computer game could give you I never really went back to consoles. When I was in the minor leagues we always had console games in our apartments to blow time but I was never a fanatic for that type of game or platform once I realized I could outfit a PC or laptop on an unlimited budget and enjoy games running at their max settings:)

The twitch aspect isn't as enjoyable to me as it might have once been.

You know, I could ramble off a list of wargames and SRPGs that are as deep if not deeper than anything found on a PC. But I'm not sure whether it's a wasted effort or not. Suffice it to say, I'm a big fan of people playing of breadth in people's gaming habits. When you focus too much, you miss out on a lot of gems and - well, essentially it boils down to a massive case of tunnel vision.

Here, I'll bite, ever heard of Dai Senryaku?

Both.  :awesome_for_real:

You had me at "hello". 

Make an online playable version of this, please!  I miss the days of arguing over machine gun penetration factors.

No

See, if you do that? You have my attention from the word motherfucking go. (Yes, me likey the F bombs) The wargaming community needs an online injection of cash, development and shit to play more than the entire world needs another fantasy diku MMOG. Shit, go give the guys at Creative Assembly an asston of money if you want to spend your cash on some game development.

But an MMOG? A fantasy MMOG with Salvatore and McFarlane as the only selling points you can tell us about right now? I have trouble even getting the least amount of interest up for it. I've seen it. YOU'VE seen it. Hey, it's your money and I'm just a foul-mouthed asshole on the Internet. But I can tell you which market is more saturated with samey-samey clones.

I must've missed something, because with the exception of a couple, most of the red names only post to the threads about their own properties or interests...  I don't see any reason this example should be any different, and possibly the only difference is eevryone trying to one up each other. Everyone here stopped discussing the game and company involved here pages and pages ago, just like every other discussion past page 3 here. I also haven't ever seen another red name that was greeted in this fashion, but I give up trying to understand this place. /shrug

I wonder what the derail will discuss for the next 3 pages?

Again Haemish encapsulates my thoughts.  I built a brand new machine in anticipation of WWII Online (*waits for laughter*).  I don't think I'm alone.  There is such a vast expanse of emptiness in the wargame/wargame-mmo hybrid arena that anything produced with even mediocre gameplay would likely be self-sustaining.  It would never capture the mass appeal of WoW, but I think shooting for that market is a monumental mistake.  There are many niches out there with a strong following that could easily sustain a well made and maintained project.

You've seen it? Hell I haven't seen it before and I am looking at it every day. It's not what you've seen before.

As far as wargaming and MMO gaming, one is a market, the other is a niche. That's ok though because we'll be making games WE want to play throughout the life of 38 as opposed to making games that someone above us would be asking us to make to better position ourselves or our products in the market place. That's the one other aspect of this that I am excited as hell about. The games we make, from this first IP on, will be games we want to play and love to play, as opposed to games needed to be made for business reasons or partnerships.

While the multiman bit gave us some insight, I wouldn't be doing my job (as a good samaritan?  :awesome_for_real:) if I didn't point out that not only am I a big fan of gaming executives/designers/whatever having endless horizons. The latest Dai Senryaku release (PS2) (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/strategy/daisenryakuviiexceed/index.html?tag=tabs;summary) wasn't that great, imo, but there's an entire world worth exploring. If only to explore and understand different systems within the genre you love.

Also:
Final Fantasy Tactics (and Advanced)
the Front Mission Series
N1 stuff (La Pucelle Tactics, Disgaea, Makai Kingdom)
Vandal Hearts
Langrisser
Fire Emblem
Ogre Battle/Tactics
Master of Monsters (The original only!)
Suikoden Tactics

While not all of these are amazing, they're all worth investigating.

And there's some pretty important ones coming out soon that I can't talk about yet!

What online games did you play before MMOGs if I could ask (muds, etc)?

PLANETSIDE BITCHES!


There, i said it. Id love more wargaming, And careful curt, you seem to like a lot of the same things i do, except moog's.

You know, your avatard always makes me think you are laughing at me from on high.

Let me rephrase, since obviously I have not seen Copernicus. What I have seen if level-based, Diku-y fantasy MMOG's before. A lot. Too much. Since the only things I know about Copernicus are that 1) it's fantasy, 2) it's concept art has adapted a whimsical cartoon style of design, 3) Curt Schilling is the money man, 4) Salvatore and McFarlane are involved. Based on that, all I can say is it's a fantasy MMOG whose only difference from other fantasy MMOG's is 3, 4 and 5, none of which makes me think the game will be anything special. Until you can tell me something that makes it special, it's filed in the "I've seen that before" category.

Wargaming online? That's something almost no one is doing. That's something I haven't seen before. Fantasy MMOG? Yeah, been there, done that.

And thus the danger of doing any kind of hype/press about your game before you even have an alpha client. The people who care can't be given any information that matters and the people who might care will forget about your game until you can actually tell us more about it. Less is more until you have gameplay video.

See, this here is what I'm talking about. "A lot?" What he listed, is to me, one of the most narrow views of gaming I could even imagine. Yes, I understand I'm a little bit of a freak in this area, but my feeling is anyone who wants to work in games, or anyone who really wants to enjoy games, needs what I mentioned above. Breadth. Lots of it. Also, depth. Otherwise, from what I've seen in game design, their pool of things to improve/innovate on is much too small and in the end results in a lot of in-the-box-thinking.

Yeah, but you're insane.   :awesome_for_real:

And anyway, you don't need to be an expert on airplanes in order to build a decent boat.

To be fair, he responded with his favorites, not necessarily all hes played, or even a more narrow "I like this game, for feature X". I think i am rather broad in my gameing, even if i have slants. You have slants too ya know =)

I still think there is a disconnect between  MMOG and Wargames.  I like Risk but I have no desire to play as an 'I'.  Nor does it make sense to have a game with 10k nations.  Someone it is going to have to resolve that before MMO Wargames will be viable.

No, but it helps if you're building an airplane to understand fluid dynamics in case of a water landing (caution, scientists, i may be using a word wrong here, YOU KNOW WHICH ONE).

And I like my game designers and executives to understand fluid dynamics. And compared to a single player console title, an MMOG is a plan to its boat.

Expand this thought please?

I think he means;
Wargamers don't want to be pawns, they want to be leaders. In a wargame, you're one of few supreme rulers. In an MMO, you're insignificant (even if you control an entire nation, because everyone does).

I think "war MMOs" would could be popular with the type of people who have done military service and liked the raids. Others? Less so.

One issue with MMOs that are truly large scale is that they suffer under the same kind of scope issues as boardgames that get too many expansions and eventually become too grand for their own good - you lose perspective. It's like elections - many people simply do not vote because they feel insignificant. Likewise, people who feel insignificant in something that's just too massive for their interest or time allowance will not enjoy themselves. A war MMO would be forced grouping DELUXE.

With each layer of scope (from you, to squad, to company, to batallion, to army) you do not only add scale, but you also add abstraction. Being at the bottom of that heirarchy will make you frustrated because nothing you do will show up in any significant way. Most games have this rationalised to just one layer or two at most - you, and perhaps your guild.

You don't have to be a grunt in a Wargame MMO. That's the first bit of "out of the box thinking" that needs to be dickslapped into a wargame MMOG designer's head. No one wants to be Private Nonentity SwingingDick. Ok, some do, but fuck them. Let them play an FPS. The more abstraction, the better. No individual player should have command of less than 1 squad of guys, and if you want to push the chain up even farther, do so.

The biggest mistake a wargame MMO dev could make would be in trying to make the game a MMORPG based on every soldier being one player.

I think that you're wrong, but the discussion is probably best left for a new thread.


<My favorite games have been Squad Leader and BF1942.  Why?  They reduce the large scale down to the level of the individual.  Heros are made when a single person stands out in a grand theater. >

I hear 'wargaming online' and I always think along the lines of M:TG.   Sure, the COMMUNITY is massive, but the games themselves aren't.  Ladders, tourneys, different match sizes but not 10000 vs 10000

But again, those kinds of games are FPSes. Squad Leader would be awesome... except as an MMORPG or an MMOFPS.

I think that, properly done, there's not much difference between a persistent FPS and a pvp mmo with a well-executed combat system.  It's all in how you implement itemization and advancement and couple it to a meaningful world combat scenario that does it.  Now, is this an easy thing to do... obviously not.  The possibilities are sure there, particularly with all of the interesting historical and science fiction timeframes to explore. 

Cannon Fodder Online? :-)

Controlling more than one soldier would mean you had to rely on some kind of AI when you weren't watching a specific soldier. AI sucks, even in squad-based single player games. They get in the way, get owned and are in general very frustrating. This leads to insane micro-managing and suddenly you got an RTS instead. The other option is making it Warfare Manager 2008 Online but I fail to see how to make a management game all that more compelling just because it's online. Like with sims (SimCity, Settlers et.c.) a large part of the fun is breaking down the mechanics and beating the computer.

Wargaming is about prosecuting a war.  Players who are doing something else are not wargaming, even if they inhabit the same game space.  There is probably a couple hundred, at most, wargamers in EvE but everyone else is playing a traditional MMO.  

So what passes for massive these days 10k players per gamespace? It just doesn't seem feasable to create a gameworld where there are that many generals running around commanding armies 24/7 in some sort of coherent manor right now.

I so hope there is answer because a Magic of Magic-like MMO would be my robot jesus.

I think I have killed this guy in a game before. Tell me more about how you are better than me.


So you freely admit that you only came here plug your game after all of that community talk. Have you even looked at these forums, or do you just come directly to this thread? Not every discussion is about a particular game. It really shouldn't matter what games you like.

You are an unrepentant exploiter, its not hard to be better than you.

Why does he have a sig like that?  I thought I was logging into Stratics for a minute there!

What's with the hate for this guy?  He hasn't come here talking shit and saying his game is teh awesome and everyone on his team is smarter than all the other morons in the industry.  I suppose if he let most of you into his beta, the mods would become his zealous guardians like in a certain other situation  :awesome_for_real:

Seriously though, he hasn't done anything here that merits so much idiocy.  

It's LC and Cheddar.  Who gives a shit?

I think he'll be OK.  Like others have said, he's had a lot worse said to him at various times in this life.  A lot worse than schild bugging him about not playing console games.   

As an aside, I'm getting pretty sick of whole "mods only do their jobs for beta spots" jabs.  It's getting tiresome.   We're not here to shelter grown men from the evils of the internet (except if it can get you fired).

The fact that he is good at a sport, is famous and is rich probably doesn't help. People are going to be looking for ways to put him down.

Personally my beef with him is the whole ketchup on the sock thing.  :awesome_for_real:

It wouldn't matter to me if it was a homeless guy that bathes in sewage. I know crap when I see it, and I haven't been wrong so far.

Yeah...so...anyways, I am impressed he answered as much as he did there. Cool to get a little insight on Curt.

Hey bud...can I 'borrow' 5k, my truck just died. :( Come on am I really the first one to beg?

He played baseball.  I've seen baseball games, albeit in between bouts of napping.  People shout at you all time.  He's become a game developer - another profession where people shout at you all the time.   I'm sure he can hold his own.  (not in a pervy way!)  Also, this is F13, someplace where people shout at you all the time.

I would love to see documentation of this.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=profile;u=1336;sa=showPosts

I got banned from crapnews for calling DDO a pile of shit.

There may be quite a few games with this playstyle, but only one worth investing any time into. Not much of a choice there really.

Not that I'm opposed to new ideas of course. And I'm still waiting for the game that will take the Planetside model to the next level.

This is the type of post and person that made me laugh when you guys were trouncing on me a few pages back about posting on FOH.  All those descriptions of posters over there can be used for some folks posting here as well. I haven't been involved here as much or as long but there are posts in this BB that could have been cut and pasted from FOH.

The politically correct thing to do and maybe smarter move to make might be to just bypass this.

Unfortunately I sometimes can't and don't, like now. This guy is obviously nothing but a troll and a tool. Zero relevant input to give so he adds commentary that is totally irrelevant and meaningless. You were responding to a post and comments that don't exist, and I am not sure why.

My question is "Dude, you are posting on a public BB where it appears the overwhelming majority of people here think you're an idiot, why?" Shouldn't you start a blog or something where your tiny gaggle of followers, if they exist, can live and converse with you about your complete comprehension of the world we live in and why everyone but you is wrong about everything?

You're too easy man, the world if full of folks like you who relish in sniping from the bleacher seats with no skin in the game.

Oh and for those wanting to send me PM's to tell me to 'cool down' or 'ease off' or 'maybe you should not post for awhile', don't. I'm a big boy and am completely at peace with myself. If I screw up I'm ok with being called on it, it happens, has happened and will happen again.

The first red name to get banninated?

lol

That would be cool.

Maybe it was worth reading past page 6.

What is wrong with you people. Stop being fucktards.

I dig the concept stills.


Any chance we'll be able to catch some glimpses of how the different styles have evovled from one to the next? Did the team go through phases with a design that resembled something like what we see in Age of Conan or the upcoming Blade & Soul?

I want to play a Brewmaster.

Ahohoho you and I have some ground to work with here chief.

Bookshelf war games, those bring back the memories. Back in my undergrad we used to get together at the history department chairman's house every Tuesday night and get ripped on cheap scotch and push little cardboard squares around a paper map that you could NEVER get the creases out of till damn near the sun came up. Watching the prof's face turn bright red when he lost an entire armored division after getting pushed into the swamp by a few AT infantry units. Man, those were the days....

If you haven't yet, check out Dominions 3: The Awakening. It's a fantasy turn based strategy / war game that is just aces. Being a former SSI game fan I doubt that the asstastic visuals would bother you at all.

The funny thing is that the quest chain you described is still far more entertaining than "LFG to stand in a specific corner of some place and pull the local respawn cycle for two hours". Basically, it's not ideal, but still manages to shit on what came before.

Wow, I guess I shouldn't have ignored this thread for so long.  Schilling posting, who knew!

Anyways:

1.) Yes, LC will basically troll you for liking anything other than Hardcore Eve style PvP death penalty.  But hey, it's another view point.  If you can get by the assholishness of his usual posts, there actually tends to be some decent insight.

2.)  Good luck with the game!  Many people with their hearts set on creating a good game have failed due to many reasons (budget/pressure/incompetence/etc.).  It's not easy, but if you can pull it off, I have more faith in you guys making an enjoyable game than most of the big players.  I like the concept art, but I guess it all remains to be seen until you actually announce details on the game. :wink:

3.)  HAVING said that:
Oh dear god, THIS!  This is exactly what has been going through my head lately in my dream "man, if I made millions of dollars with my profession, I'd make this!" scenario.  :awesome_for_real:

Really.  That would be GREAT.  I really want to play all those strategy games, but 1.)  It's hard to find any other friends/people to play with 2.) It can be long/tedious keeping track of everything on the more complicated board games (which leads heavily into point #1).

Magic the Gathering Online really tipped me off to the potential of moving card/board games to an online environment, but they destroyed it with horribly horrible programming (so maybe don't follow their lead).

It might start niche, but NOBODY has tapped into that market.  There is plenty of room to grow, and a large niche demand.  Hell, you can add in all the other board games out there that are a bit more casual.  If SOMEBODY would create an online portal where you could play all the old/new/complicated/simple board games out there, they'd strike it big.  Casual and Hardcore all paying for the same thing.  It would have steady growth, and could become mainstream.  On top of that, IT WOULD BE AWESOME.

So yeah, keep looking into that  :wink:. 

PLEASE.

No way, that was your best post ever.  Give him hell.  A couple more like that and you'll be part of the tribe.

In part, at least, they're starstruck. It's simple. The famous baseball player that they have seen on tv told them to get bent after they trolled him. It's more exciting than trolling Raph or McQuaid or Smed etc since they've not famous in the real world or on the television machine. Not schild's line of "breadth?" questioning or even Haemish's "seen it all before", but the "i h8 u" stuff from LC and Musashi. Hey, at least WUA admitted it and joked about it months ago.

As a non-American, I don't give a shit about baseball, so Curt comes off as just another game dev, though one who is self-funding. I'm not a fan of RA though I don't hate him, and McFarlane drew some good Spider-Man comics back in the day. The only real feedback I have is that due to  :nda:, most of Curt's posts are kind of pointless as his main concern is his game, which he can't actually talk about.

edit - grammar

Something like http://www.brettspielwelt.de/Spiele/?

It has been around for years. Although, if you're a boardgamer, you largely find the cold, de-humanised Internet a boring place to play games that don't need a computer's processing ability. Magic works better than most because of the collectible aspect.

You mean when we called them poopsockers? Do you know what that means? We may have a few of them here, but I don't think F13 is a community of poopsockers. Perhaps that's why you are feeling a bit out of your element.


If I really am a troll, then you have just awarded me a decisive victory by making an angry post. Good job!



What? I clearly quoted one of your posts. Are you blind?



This place would be pretty dull if we all agreed on everything. You must have lived a very sheltered virtual life so far.


I guess you are comparing me to a heckler at a baseball game. I guess if he bought his ticket he has a right to complain about some washed up corpse throwing bad pitches. That's the right of every consumer/patron.

So, since baseball is not my thing, even though I'm married to a man who is distantly related to some famous baseball player I've never heard of, I read all about Curt Schilling on the innarloops.  He seems like a tough nut and enjoys speaking his mind even when he gets in a wee bit of trouble for it.  I have put him on my "hard" list.  All this is good, though, no?  Most of the people here enjoy speaking their mind to the point where they would be banned (or possibly baned) on any other site.  He also seems to be a staunch conservatice politically.  If someone like that can't take care of himself on the fucking virtual airwaves, who can?  I doubt the admin here are going to bother buffering any red name from people like LC or Viklas.  I hope not, anyway.  A fair bit of my fun on f13 comes from people having at each other over games!

Why do professional athletes seem to bring out either the starfuckers or the attackers?   

We need more women on F13!  That is the only answer.   :drillf:

PS  Is there offsides in baseball?  If so, can someone please explain it?   :awesome_for_real:

PPS  Make LC stop SirBrucing!  It'll bring back the night terrors!   :ye_gods:

you are a dirty, dirty girl. so naughty!  for god sake your husband reads this forum.

Curt seems to have the 'right stuff' to survive f13, since he's still reading and posting after the usual cacophony of f13 know-it-alls have chucked rocks at him. Question really is, can we challenge devs enough anymore to keep them interested in returning here.

In MMO land, things have been more adrift and stagnant than a brain-damaged dead head in the 80s. Nobody seems to really know what's wrong. There's WoW...and that's it. Conan's on the crashcart already. WH's exec is spewing inanities on Gamasutra. When EVE is the most active MMO game forum on f13, things are broken. Seriously broken. Do we have anything to say to anyone anymore, or are we like the remnants of a golden age, unwilling to leave our social circles out of inertia and loneliness?

Fuck all that, I was trying to get him to expand his horizons. Everyone else wanted to dick around in the tiny diku box the world provided us.

Also, anyone who thinks a Wargame is really ready for primetime is deluded.

I think that is shortsighted really. Wargaming was a HUGE hobby fan base wise, before the PC and PC gaming. I still think there are a ton of people interested, and I think boxed sales of good games proved that over the years.

The thing is I think we are seeing the first generation, or maybe the second (am I that old!) of kids that grew up with a severe lack of boardgames as part of their youth. They were there, and this is just my opinion, but I don't think they were as much a part of this generations teens younger years as they were ours. Heck I know they were on their way out when I was growing up.
I have always loved the ftf camaraderie of board gaming but the online gaming world has replaced the need for us to play 'in person'. Is that a good thing? That's a debate for another time.

Schild the list of games I have liked and played is enormous. I can't even remember them all.

Boardgames
Panzerblitz
Panzerleader
Up Front (Card game DYING to be redone as a card game and an online game)
Warhammer table top (newer to this, and Fantasy not 40K)
SL
ASL
Risk (it was fun at the right age)
The George R Martin line of Kings games (loved this game and learned about some of my employees while playing this!)
And many more

But computer games was where I really got dedicated and obsessed
I'll try and chronologically list them (as best I can)

Star Trek (yep, the ASCII version, wow was that  the bomb when the Apple first came home!)

Wizardry (It starts and ends here, this was the end all be all for me then)

The subsequent Wizardy releases up to 3, after that it felt like someone else took over the franchise. The Legacy of Llylgammen (sp?) was the last true Wizardry for me

The SSR D&D stuff was fun as hell (Curse of the Azure Bonds was awesome).

Does anyone remember a 3D chess game, very old, 80's old, that was fantasy/demon based? It was so big (at that time) that I had to uninstall things and install it when I wanted to play?

I went MAC for a few years and there was a wargame, top down very simple graphics, that I was completely hooked on and obsessed with but I cannot remember the name. to this day it is the only game that came close to ASL for me.

Warcraft 1

X-Com

UOnline first MMO and I liked it, but PvP was so foreign and I was so bad I didn't enjoy it.

WWII Online, man did I hope this would be the best thing ever.

Battlefield 1942 This was fun as hell

Company of Heroes

Call of Duty all of them

Very little Civilization (I am a detail freak and Civ was too meta game for me)

Panzer General (pushed the envelope for me as far as too little detail but a great UI and interface made it funner than I expected it to be)

Age of Sail

All of the stuff Charlie Kibler helped make after he left AH. The Civil War and Napoleon era combat sims, loved this.

EQ (this was the watershed MMO for me, the one that I knew would lead me to 38S someday)

EQ was it for a good while. After moving from EQ PC I started and ran a MAC EQ guild for about a year. Less population and a ton of fun. Problem was I went away from EQ a few different times and when I came back the world had gotten too big for me and I literally couldn't find anyone. I left and people were still lining up in BB to get a group, I come back and there was NO ONE in the zone!

I rebelled when EQ2 was announced upon hearing my character would not be able to transfer, and went to DAOC which I liked. I only played 3-4 characters and none past the mid 30s.

I got heavily involved in the EQ2 beta and was up and running with DROW for a long time in EQ2. Really did have fun.

EQ2 was my first multi-box, I three boxed a Zerker, Chanter and something else? to max level and loved it.

Total War
Total War 22

Rome Total War

My interest waned and I tip toed into WoW with all the pre-conceived care bear impressions fresh in my head and was bowled over.

It wasn't care bear, well it was if you were a perma-death search for 2 hours to find the quest guy who was standing right in front of you player. I could completely understand EQ and EQ2 players complaints, to a degree. This was the period of time when 38 Studios (then GMG) was actually moving from dream to reality and imo I needed to grasp the fact that whatever you thought about WoW it brought MMO's to the "Mainstream". As mainstream as MMOs could be at this time. It's growing for sure. But WoW has brought MMO's to the online masses over here, well behind the Far East but it was incredible to me none the less.

FF a few years and I still enjoy the game. Probably because I did start late but there is still an enormous amount of people that started at launch, still playing. Do we like Blizzards release schedule? Hell no we're gamers, give it to us polished and finished, yesterday! The amount of negative WoW feedback you could collect is probably uncountable, but most of them are still playing....

I, like many here, have looked elsewhere. Not because WoW was boring to me, but because it's sort of how we are made I guess. The ONLY game that has REALLY piqued my interest is EVE and that is solely due to meeting Hilmar and to the FOH thread. EVE, while niche, is to me an awesome example of someone sticking to their creative guns and pumping out a product completely filled with the passion and love of the creators. I played some but when I realized that I would 'never catch up' to people that started before me, the competitor in me said no thanks. It's still, imo, an awesome game.

So I am sitting here at 38 on a Saturday, just finished walking the floor and seeing the latest Copernicus stuff in the works and again realizing how valuable the years of gaming experience are to me as I try and help steer this massive plodding thing that is it's own world. I also realize that I am so damn lucky and God blessed to be able to experience this stuff on a daily basis.

I think my personal attachment to the IP, since it started in my head, and to every single person in this 38 Family, will always be the reason behind me not 'turning the other cheek' when a prudent and smarter person might.

But at the end of the day that's who I am, for better or worse, and I sleep ok at night knowing that.

Don't throw me in that boat.  I know i wished him over a cliff, but I meant mine as a joke.  He fucking CRUSHED my team.  What does he want from me?  If I were him, I'd take opposing team fan hate as a compliment.

I have ALWAYS said if you walk into Yankee stadium and you don't get booed, you suck. Fans don't hate and boo players that suck....

Oh, there's a place for Wargames online. Just not MMOGs. And you can't call it short sighted since all I said was 'not ready for primetime.' And I mean it, the tech isn't there yet. I'm also right. There aren't enough neckbeards on earth to make such a venture reasonable, Yet. You'd have to turn it into something completely unrecognizable from the original IP.

That said, Curt, if you're ever in Austin, I'll introduce you to a list of games. I'm too lazy to pop open the boxes. Suffice it to say, and I realize there's no way you've had the free time I've had (if I were you, I'd have a bed stuffed with money and roll around naked in the rest of the money all day), but that's a really short, narrow list of titles and it tells me a lot about your gaming habits (or lack thereof :oh_i_see:)

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

There's no Master of Magic, reference to FF 4, 5, or 6, Langrisser, Planescape, Deus Ex, in fact, there's nothing from my entire top 20 on that list of all (lol i brought upt he top 20 lists). Sure, X-Com is there, but other teams have done it better since. I should start writing a book on gaming history. I think I know enough. A sort of encyclopedia. I can call it Must Play.

Edit: I'm not saying my top 20 is that great (it is, jerks), but it's more like, I could make a list of a top 200 and most of the games mentioned there wouldn't be on it. That list, is in fact, more narrow than a 1 lane road.

Ok, I take that back. Schild is the heathen.

Oh dang, thanks! Yep, Bards Tale and the series was a definite! I think I still have some of the books from the game. That was another one I hoped would be far better than it was.

Also Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights.

Magic? The TCG? As embarrassed as I am, I'll admit. I never played it, UNTIL, the online game came out. Then I was the idiot rich guy who bought a crap ton of cards and went and got waxed repeatedly. I have a MASSIVE online collection that is being passed around the studio:) I really liked it but I knew very quickly that if I wasn't going to commit the time I wasn't going to be a great player.

You're playing a shitty Diablo clone from the eastern bloc. Do you have a PSP? Yes? Good. No, get one. Pick up FFT, Jeanne D'Arc, and Disgaea while you're at it. Thx.

Wow, your games suck. With the exception of Deus Ex, which I think I vaguely liked, your list in my opinion, at least what you posted, are games I think suck.

Uh oh.

Oh no good sir. Master of Magic was an old Micropose strategy game from WAY back....circa...94'ish? It was basically crack cocaine dipped in nicotine and milk chocolate.

Curt, do you - AT THE VERY LEAST - know why those games I listed are important to gaming?

I think it was a fairly decent list of titles, a lot of which I haven't played. Curt has certainly gamed more than the vast majority of gaming execs. Of course he's going to come short when compared with schild, I have a hard time seeing anyone matching up to that level of craziness when it comes to gaming  :drill:

If he already have tried some of the better japaneses SRPGs and not liked them, then he will most likely not like anything in that genre. Even if I'd agree that would be missing out on awesomeness.

Ok, Curt look, I'm not trying to be mean. But MMOGs need a white knight. They need people who think outside the box. They need people to break the direction we're going in. They need people to do new things, not rehash old things with a shinier (or not shinier) coat of paint. We need innovation, change, and revolution. We need someone who isn't just making a game they want to play. Someone obviously already made what you wanted to play, twice now.

I haven't seen Copernicus. I don't know what direction you're going with. That's why I'm digging this information out of you. It says a lot about what type of game we might see. And frankly, I'm scared. It's more than likely not going to be AS COOL as you say it is, simply based on your gaming history and how interested you are in building YOUR WORLD for YOU rather than a world for gamers.

I understand it's a tough time to be making an MMOG. Some companies are moving to consoles, some are skirting around WoW. They have an expansion coming out and two other MMOGs in development (one further along than the other, obviously), and that's scary for anyone. Especially someone who's putting their own money to it. But let me say this:

Do not fuck up. Do not do the same shit. All turns down that road lead to an endless pit of despair and mediocrity. If I could impart one thing to you, force it upon you with a snowglobe to the skull, it would be to step out of your shell of safety and security and try to do something different. Something genre-redefining. Because frankly, and I hate to put it this way, if it's diku-based, you'd be better off shoving the money up your ass.

Edit: By the way, you're in the position to Change Things and I'm addressing you this way solely because it IS your money. Not some investors expecting a return. While there may be investors, I'm 100% sure you have more freedom than most. Don't piss it away and don't tell me you're not pissing it away. SHOW ME you're not pissing it away.

Planescape sucks? Master of Magic sucks?  I can't parse those sentences.

I can understand not liking them now, but in the day they were the pinnacle.  Hell, MoM is still pretty damn good.

Schild, there is such a thing as personal taste. He listed a bunch of games that were pretty good, the fact that he didn't list any JRPGs and SRPGs doesn't make him a terrible heathen.

This has gotten quite daft.

Edit: Would FOH be any dumber than this? Doubtful. At this point there really isn't much to talk about so people are dramatizing the most inane tidbits.

We should talk about the Manny trade instead.

Fuck JRPGs and SRPGs. Let's talk about first person shooters, platformers, beat-em-ups, shmups, fucking golf games. Fuck, flight simulators. I don't give a shit what we talk about. But there's something to be said about knowing where stuff came from, where design decisions were made and mishandled. Where people took leaps forward and fell back. You know, The History of Gaming. Is it too much to ask that I don't want our future to be decided by people who don't know an absolute shit ton of the industry they meshed themselves with.

Fuck, man. Just, fuck.

Do I need to make a road sign. CAUTION: HISTORY REPEATING.

While that sounds good on paper there is very little evidence that that results in better games. In the case of MMORPGs if anything being embedded in MMO/MUD history and culture seems to result in myopia and worse products.

You're still missing the goddamn point. I'm saying embed yourself with the rest of gaming. OUTSIDE THE BOX. OUTSIDE THE GODDAMN BOX. WAY OUTSIDE. LEFT FIELD. LOL BASEBALL ANALOGY.

Yes, I'm frothing at this point.

It went over your head like a goddamn flock of seagulls (lol).

You know what, I'll just say it:

MMOG designers don't know enough about fucking gaming. They might know MMOGs, but that's obviously not enough anymore. And frankly, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if this is a sign of things to come, we're fucking doomed. Forget about post-apocalyptic, that's a description of the goddamn MMORPG genre. Fuck. Now I'm just mad. It's your fault.

Edit: Here, I'll make it clear since there seems to be a thick haze of whatever in front of you: This was never, ever, ever about taste. This is about knowledge. Nothing else.

Do you mean Archon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon_(computer_game))?  God I loved that game.

I find it very interesting that Curt has similar tastes to me in gaming.  I'm not sure if it's the age similarity or what.  I was raised on Squad Leader, Risk, Chess, and Panzer Blitz and I'm still amazed how those games shaped my current tastes.  I'm still drawn to flight/driving sims, golf titles, and anything that mimics Status Pro or Title Bout from Avalon Hill.

Tastes vary by life experience and generation.  So do perceptions on fun.  Coming from an era where we went outside to play with neighborhood friends rather than loading up a video game gives you a very different perspective.  Schild's whole life has been in the electronic age.  I'm guessing it's hard for him to remember a time when there wasn't an internet.  His tastes in games reflect this to a degree. I do agree with him in that it would be great if you managed to avoid some of the missteps of the past, but also encourage you to stay true to your passions.  There are far better ways to measure success than by achieving mass appeal.

I also never said it was about mass appeal. I'd rather succeed in doing something new in a niche than beat WoW. In fact, I made mention that he DOESN'T have to beat WoW because no one is breathing down his neck to do so.

Are my posts really that out there? Are they in another language. I'm fucking dying over here.

I know you didn't.  I added that from my own wee little brain.

I get what you're saying Schild.  You want him to create something that isn't just derivative.  The man has the opportunity of a lifetime in his hands and you don't want it squandered... I get it.

Ok. Fair enough. Also, I'll add, I remember vividly my life before computers and Nintendo. I am, in fact, Just Old Enough to know what else is out there. And I was also smart enough as a kid to play most of the games "old timers" claim to be classics. But as I said, it's not about taste. This is about learning, history, and the furthering of knowledge. Nebu, you of all people...

Edit: Ah, you edited: Not just that though, never stop learning. And never look a gift horse in the mouth.

I think I caught you with an edit before you posted. Suffice it to say that I'm big on learning from the past. 

I know, and that's why I went off on you. Curt seems to be looking straight at the gift horse, punching it and saying 'fuck you pal, EQ2 was the tits.'

I guess my point is that there is no game so far... anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.  You know this, so I'm speaking in general more than anything. 

It's his cash.  If he wants to make something derivative, it's his call.  Would you do differently?  Sure.  Maybe this will motivate you to get the cash to make a game the likes you'd be proud of.

The best thing about that game was that when you attacked the other pieces, your dude moved his stick or whatever.  It may seem crazy now, but back in the day we were all like, "Holy shit - they're really fighting!"

Battle Chess?

Anyway I do agree that MMO devs should be familiar with video games in general. So much of typical MMOs is years a decade behind other genres. In particular combat. Even if you are doing standard auto-attack and die rolls it can at least LOOK good. I mean who does WOW combat look worse than Final Fight? (Which I believe came out in '91)

At least make it LOOK like I'm hitting the enemy and they are reacting and vice-versa. That's what people liked about the panty-shot fan-service game Schild posted up recently, it looks like actual fighting.

This is generally something that PC games don't do well, third person fighting usually looks pretty bad on PC games but it's well past time for them to catch up.

It's a PS3 game, the bar is set higher by default. DCUO devs should look closely at that game also.

Also, before anyone lambastes me. I'm not saying I'm the gift horse. Rather, gaming is. The history of gaming is a cheap investment when you're making a game. Someone should compile a list of 100 games developers should be forced to play and why. Not me of course, I'm far too lazy and it wouldn't bring in a paycheck. ^_^ Or maybe I could. I don't know.

You should.  Cross reference the list by genre for accessibility.  Also make sure you thoroughly explain why.  'Cause maybe I disagree, and can skip a couple.  Knowing why I should play them is at least as important as playing them.

That someone should be you.  Hell, narrow it down to 20.  I think a list like that would be an excellent read for any gamer and you have the writing talent to draw them in. 

Goddamnit. My new hell.

(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7724/itbeginszk3.png)

It begins.

Delegate man, delegate.  I'm sure you could get some great lists from people.  Just create a new thread named "The 25 games all developers should play".  I bet you'd get some damn fine input from the red names here.

 :awesome_for_real:

25 games isn't enough. I could shit out 25 games from the last year most people didn't notice and made some interesting design decisions. 100 Games will be hard enough. I want this to be a list of 100 games designers should have fucking played or they shouldn't be in design. A list that will embarrass. I'm out for blood.

If you are going to do this you should include bad games as well, sometimes those are more worth playing from a learning perspective. And games that did interesting things. Don't just make it a list of good games.

Although in general I'd say it's more important to not re-invent from the wheel from a development perspective. If you are making any game chances are 95% has been done before, which means you have plenty to copy from. That's what bugs me so much about MMORPG combat, hand-to-hand fighting has been around forever, it shouldn't be hard to make it look and feel good.

It's not going to be a list of good or bad. My opinion does not play into this. It would get in the way of science.

I am beginning to like this Curt guy.  He needs to start posting outside this little thread!   :grin:

Assuming Curt is still paying any attention, I will mention the elephant in the room: Shadowbane.  One of the things the Shadowbane team eventually realized was a mistake was actively courting the hard-core PvP crowd from UO, when they became disaffected by the Trammel release in UO:R.  Since it overlapped heavily with griefers and exploiters, it gave them a core community that was actively and mutually hostile with the rest of their market.  When people heard buzz about SB consistantly coming from people they considered to be assholes, acting like assholes, with the Wolfpack team catering to them, they assumed it was a game made by assholes, for assholes.  I was promoting another PvP oriented game at the time, and I picked some very public fights with the Wolfpack team both to build buzz and to make it clear that Camelot was PvP, but not the kind of PvP that attracted assholes.  It worked out rather well for us, not so well for SB and Wolfpack (although there are certain companies I still can't even consider trying to work for).

Your core community is your most powerful marketing tool, and the most personal face of your branding.  Build it around FoH, and everyone who dislikes that notorious group and the playing philosophy they espouse will assume your game is not for them.

--Dave