Schilling's Green Monster Games

[Calandryll]

Can we officially change "Free to Play" to "Free to Start".

If anyone out there knows of a true free to play game not created for Intellivision, with actual 3D art that's really fun, let me know, otherwise it's Free to Start and anyone that says otherwise is lyin!

Free to Start doesn't quite work either since it implies that at some point in time you have to pay. It sounds more like a typical 7 day free trial than what free to play mmogs actually offer.

While some free to play games do lock you out of content or cap your level until you pay, not all do. And even those that do still allow you to play for free as long as you want. I have quite a few friends playing free to play mmogs like Free Realms who haven't paid a dime yet and are still having fun. Fun is subjective of course, but there are tons of people playing free to play mmogs who aren't paying.

The games are free to play, they just have additional premium content. Sure, they certainly go out of their way to get you to pay and they definitely want you to pay, but if you don't want to in most cases you don't have to.

[UnSub]

Chronicles of Spellborn used the term 'freemium' - free to play to a point, but pay to unlock past that point.

[JWIV]

Reynolds is playing with web games!

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090630005379&newsLang=en
http://www.baltimoresun.com/technology/bal-zynga0630,0,6745489.story


Looks like they hired him and gave him a budget to build an office and team out in Timonium so he wouldn't have to move.

[Pendan]

When Shadow Bane changed to Free to Play it really was free. Was nothing to buy even if wanted to pay money. Was an adevertisement when started and quit game for some of the time but it would come and go from month to month.

[gehrig38]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

[Nebu]

Mounts should be a money sink and an attraction to the collector types.  If you can't incorporate them into combat mechanics, they shouldn't be anything more. 

Mounts should also be available at level 1.  Running for hours sucks.  Ask anyone that played early ATitD. 

[schild]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

Quick travel.

Mounts are a cover for bad world design.

(edit: Mounts can exist in a world with quick travel, but honestly, as a genre, I really hope we're past hoofing it - on or off an animal)

[AcidCat]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

Quick travel.

Mounts are a cover for bad world design.

(edit: Mounts can exist in a world with quick travel, but honestly, as a genre, I really hope we're past hoofing it - on or off an animal)

Actually I think quite the opposite. I'm very much a tourist in these worlds and a big world that has significant travel, I find satisfying. I like mounts as a travel device, but I don't think you should get them too soon - you should hoof it at least for the first 10 levels or so to better appreciate it - anticipation is always part of the fun.

[gehrig38]

I do agree that unless they are combat incorporated, they are time sinks, money sinks and collectors items.
Given the size of the worlds and the design intent to maintain traffic flow giving them right off the bat can be good or bad. I think everyone learned a lesson with BC, at least I think I did, that even if you don't offer them as purchasable at level 1, you can incorporate quests to allow people to experience them (as they did with Flying)
Ya, the days of Karana corpse runs are over (even though we skewingly remember that as cool for some reason, and I was a monk!)

[Montague]

I like exploring a massive world because it helps with immersion, but those who despise it should be able to pay for permanent quick travel ASAP. Early WoW did it ok but it really should have been 30th level so you had the mount for godawful Stranglethorn Vale. Alts should be able to have a mount available from day one.

[Slyfeind]

Actually I think quite the opposite. I'm very much a tourist in these worlds and a big world that has significant travel, I find satisfying. I like mounts as a travel device, but I don't think you should get them too soon - you should hoof it at least for the first 10 levels or so to better appreciate it - anticipation is always part of the fun.

I agree. There's a lot of good world design going on in Wrath of the Lich King, and it's apparently AGAINST THE RULES to look at it because you're zipped from one zone to the next. The trick of course is to make it interesting to travel.

[Nebu]

The trick of course is to make it interesting to travel.

This.  Your players will be some mix of achiever/explorer.  Make travel interesting or with purpose and you solve many of the problems.  

[schild]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

Quick travel.

Mounts are a cover for bad world design.

(edit: Mounts can exist in a world with quick travel, but honestly, as a genre, I really hope we're past hoofing it - on or off an animal)

Actually I think quite the opposite. I'm very much a tourist in these worlds and a big world that has significant travel, I find satisfying. I like mounts as a travel device, but I don't think you should get them too soon - you should hoof it at least for the first 10 levels or so to better appreciate it - anticipation is always part of the fun.

After getting to an area for the first time there's absolutely no reason to go through all that walking again. Even if it's a time limited quick travel or a warp to your group mechanic, there's just no reason to make people walk and walk and walk. I'm someone who can poopsock/grind with the best of them - absolutely, no question. But walking -> mounts -> (possibly) flying mounts is just crappy progression, even if I take part in it. And an even stupider money sink. It's terribly bad design if you want people to grind out more funds.

As someone who doesn't even like City of Heroes, I'll flat out say that the fast travel there was the only thing that bordered fast enough. If you can't match that, just implement quick travel.

Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

No, you're just a powergaming, uberguild, raiding poopsocker. There's nothing wrong with that, but you don't exactly have the IP power to compare to WoW's design. You have to separate yourself far more to compete. It doesn't matter if they did well or not with mounts, you have to step it up a notch. Well, more like 10 notches tbh.

(even though we skewingly remember that as cool for some reason, and I was a monk!)

lol no we don't

And stop calling them Collector's Items. it makes your game sound more and more like some sort of bizarro land money grab. Knock it off.

Edit: Also, Travel is only interesting the first time. I'm very very much the explorer type and will walk to the farthest areas of a world for fun and I still think travel times are ridiculous. I'm not saying someone should be able to Click on X,Y and magically appear there, but surely there's an alternative. Also, if you're giving away mounts at level 1, it means your runspeed isn't fast enough.

[WindupAtheist]

Unless I can fight from horseback, at this point I just don't care. A character model that looks like a guy on a horse plus a speed buff just doesn't excite me anymore. I don't want this to be my "MAKE LIEK UO PLZ" post #2034, but I could definitely go for near-instant teleportation to any arbitrary location you care to mark + mounts as essentially combat vehicles again.

[tmp]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

Bit of a deja vu; also, somewhat different look on this subject at RPS: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/26/why-cant-i-teleport-in-mmos/

[Typhon]

I'll repeat what others are saying, travel options should be 1) quick, 2) entertaining in and of themselves.  WoW's designer mounts take too much effort for what they return: a different skin.  CoH jumping and super speed abilities were almost minigames in and of themselves.

[Ingmar]

To some extent there are genre limitations on these things. A knight in shining armor super jumping around the Dark Forest or whatever would be pretty jarring.

I think the WoW model minus the actual travel time between 'flight points' would be an acceptable balance. Make them teleporter points or something instead, and you can't use one until you've visited it once, but after that you can just poof off to it without having to sit through a 5 minute flight. I think there's some value in making some places take a bit of travel to get to, but there's very little value in padding player play time by making it take 15 minutes to travel between major hubs. Guild Wars is another reasonable model for this, if you imagine it without any instancing. Free Realms too.

[Lantyssa]

Guild Wars, Free Realms, and Fallout 3 are all good models of travel to me.  You have to explore to reach an area before you can fast travel, but once you have, you can go to those pre-set locations at any time.

None of those have mounts, but the worlds aren't large enough to really need them either.    If the world is big enough between travel locations, then mounts might be nice to reach those in-between areas.  Making it feel like walking is a punishment isn't a good idea though.  (See WoW making the first mount at 20 soon.)

What I do like mounts for is character.  SWG (Gods there she goes again...) was great for this because you could have a wide range of creature types and sizes.  My spat was a bird about the size of a Wookiee and the carrion spat was twice that, while my swamp humbaba was taller than many houses!  I liked using different mounts in different environments though they were almost all the same, functionally.  Mount bonuses should be inherent to the character, so they can use whichever they want.

[Senses]

Whatever you may think about mounts and faster travel, anyone who ever played a Druid in WoW and enoyed Epic Flight Form can attest to how amazing it was.  Instant cast flight pretty much made that class worth playing.  I remember flying as high up as I could go, then dropping flight form, plummeting almost to my death and recasting flight form just before I hit the ground....Epic.

I think the industry as a whole should break away from the whole concept of midgame "fastwalk" mounts and start just creating games where mounts are an obvious an inherent skill.  What if mounts were leveled up just like legendary weapons in Lotro?  A low level mount might just scurry around frightened of its own tail while a level 50 mount could fly you around or fight along side you.

[Stormwaltz]

Whatever you may think about mounts and faster travel, anyone who ever played a Druid in WoW and enoyed Epic Flight Form can attest to how amazing it was.

The Hunter class in LotRO is (to me) cool for its Wayfaring power set; a non-combat AoE run speed buff and teleports to major cities at the cost of food items. More games need a class that can provide fast travel in the field.

[Nebu]

More games need a class that can provide fast travel in the field.

EQ actually had an implementation of this that I thought was great.  Druids and Wizards could generate an income for themselves by porting people.  As for run speed, I'm sure most people here still know what "sow plz" means. 

[ahoythematey]

As far as I'm concerned, a good starting point is looking at AC and City of Heroes.  Travel slower than either of those is inexcusable today.

[Hayduke]

There should be a mmog where I can travel like in inFamous, that would actually be fun.  Since that's not really practical and traveling in mmos generally isn't fun after the first time, it should at least be fast.  I understand it's probably hard for developers to spend a ton of time on some really crafted areas and then be met with the "tl;dnr" treatment, but oh well.  Gamers be a fickle breed.

[ahoythematey]

Maybe they can spend more time making the effing combat actually fun, and perhaps grow a bigger pair?  I hate seeing that argument used for why I can't immediately fast travel.

[chong li]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

If you really want good mounts in your game, I'd suggest looking outside the MMO market.

Try Shadow of the Colossus (if you haven't already).

[schild]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

If you really want good mounts in your game, I'd suggest looking outside the MMO market.

Try Shadow of the Colossus (if you haven't already).

That's not what he was asking. More than that, it's a terrible comparison. The SOTC world is smaller than most starter areas in MMOGs these days - which isn't necessarily a good thing, but there it is.

[chong li]

I'm curious to know what the WoW and EQ2 folks here think about mounts. Mounts as rewards, mounts as quest rewards, mounts as RMT items. Did WoW do as great a job as I thought it did early on with mounts?

If you really want good mounts in your game, I'd suggest looking outside the MMO market.

Try Shadow of the Colossus (if you haven't already).

That's not what he was asking. More than that, it's a terrible comparison. The SOTC world is smaller than most starter areas in MMOGs these days - which isn't necessarily a good thing, but there it is.

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

My answer to WoW doing a great job with mounts?  The answer is no, since clearly there are far better examples than the glorified speed buffs in WoW.

[schild]

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

 

[chong li]

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

 

Yeah, sorry, I made the mistake of being too optimistic around the chief cynic. 

[ahoythematey]

I think train robberies would be awesome, but that which I think is awesome and what is realistic are often mutually exclusive.

[schild]

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

Yeah, sorry, I made the mistake of being too optimistic around the chief cynic.  

It had nothing to do with optimism. It just made no sense whatsoever. You're pulling shit out of thin air.

[chong li]

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

Yeah, sorry, I made the mistake of being too optimistic around the chief cynic.  

It had nothing to do with optimism. It just made no sense whatsoever. You're pulling shit out of thin air.

You shot down the idea of SOTC-style mounts due to world size and just earlier you mentioned that mounts are just a cover for bad world design.

Do you want to maintain the status quo or not?

[schild]

I didn't shoot down anything game related. I shot down your statement for being stupid, not for being optimistic. Of course we'd all like horses in MMOGs to behave the way Aggro does and have that level of interactiveness. What you're asking for just isn't possible with what these folks (or any MMOG folks) are working with at the moment. If that's the sort of thing you're hoping for, there are better websites for that sort of bright-eyed naivete.

Do you want to maintain the status quo or not?

This is just a stupid question solely formed to attack. Of course I don't want to maintain the status quo. At the same time I understand what is and isn't possible.

tl;dr Don't be a retard.

[chong li]

I didn't shoot down anything game related. I shot down your statement for being stupid, not for being optimistic. Of course we'd all like horses in MMOGs to behave the way Aggro does and have that level of interactiveness. What you're asking for just isn't possible with what these folks (or any MMOG folks) are working with at the moment. If that's the sort of thing you're hoping for, there are better websites for that sort of bright-eyed naivete.

Do you want to maintain the status quo or not?

This is just a stupid question solely formed to attack. Of course I don't want to maintain the status quo. At the same time I understand what is and isn't possible.

tl;dr Don't be a retard.

So it is about optimism, as I originally thought.

You don't believe that Curt Schilling should bother trying to advance the technology of MMOs?  That's fine.

Maybe someone else will.

[kondratti]

If the world is too big for horses to cross, put some trains in it!  How about including some wild west style train robberies?  I suggested SOTC because it does brilliant things incorporating a mount into the gameplay.

My answer to WoW doing a great job with mounts?  The answer is no, since clearly there are far better examples than the glorified speed buffs in WoW.

Before you get all puffed up with yourself.... do some research.

EQ2 had this style travel added in around 4 months after launch.   You got free cross world boat travel, but you had to deal with a scenario/encounter.  Like defend the boat, etc...  Players hated it and it was removed from the game around 6 months later.

When people want to travel, they want to travel to get with friends.  Anything that delays that is annoying.

Designers need to take that into account.  Regardless of all the other bugs, making me run back and forth through Fields of the Dead was the reason I quit AOC.  Dont add reasons for people to quit.