Alliance Shaman + Horde Paladins

[bhodi]

From the other thread.

HAHAHAHAHAH YOU FUCKING CALLED IT!!!!!!!! This deserves it's own thread. I'm making one.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6154421.html

So what does all this background mean in terms of gameplay? Simply put: In The Burning Crusade, Alliance players can play as Draenei shamans, while Horde players can play as Blood Elf paladins. Previously, players on either side weren't able to access those character classes: paladins were exclusive to the Alliance, while shamans were exclusive to the Horde.

[Paelos]

This should shock no one. However, I think it makes sense not to have faction specific classes in a game with high-end raids and pvp. Having pallies will finally give the Horde better pve balance, and having shamans will basically just give the alliance more options. The latter may not be a good thing, I'm undecided there.

[Rasix]

I picked Horde because there were no elves or Paladins.   

[bhodi]

From Eyonx:

Something we have always held to as a core design philosophy is developing classes which are distinct from each other. This means developing a class with it's own abilities that clearly separate it from other classes in terms of how the class plays and operates, both for the player and from a design stand-point.

Early on in the inception of this game, it was a hot debate as to whether factions should have a specific class, which they alone have access to. Some wanted all classes to be distinct from each other, but accessible by all. Others thought that more flavor could be generated by keeping a class unique to a faction. Obviously, if you have one side with a unique class, you should probably give the other faction a unique class as well. Thus, Shaman and Paladins became those unique classes.

However, by linking them in a relationship as unique counter-points, options are closed for our main design goal, which is to keep classes distinct. We want factions to be balanced, but don't want to cut and paste abilities from one to the other and homogenize the classes. If we went that road, there would be little difference or need for a distinct class. We want classes to be different in more than just name-only or superficial appearances.

So, in our desire to keep the classes distinct and open up new possibilities for development of each class, shaman and paladins shall now be a playable class for both factions. This decision comes at a time when we have an opportunity to blend this decision into future development. Namely, with the new races in the upcoming expansion. Prior to the new races, the Paladin and Shaman lent themselves easily to their own factions and not that well to the opposite faction (Tauren Paladin? Gnome Shaman?) With the advent of the two additional races, the choice was made more clear in game design and lore.

In terms of game design, one of the options it opens up is for specific classes in dungeon encounters. We already have several encounters that highlight the abilities of a single class or make use of a classes specific abilities. Shaman and Paladins in the previous design could not participate in such encounters. If killing a creature required a Shaman, the Alliance could never beat the encounter and vice versa. This change allows the two classes to bring their own abilities into a situation which may highlight their class as an integral part of the encounter.

[Righ]

Golfclap.

[MrHat]

I'm not sure what to even say.

Edit: Good luck finding a Draenei that isn't a shaman?

[Threash]

This really fucks raiding shamans, paladins are better buffers and healers.  There would be very little reason to bring more than a token 1 or 2 shamans to any raid.

[El Gallo]

A+ move right there.  Glad to see Blizzard is willing to back down from a stupid design decision and un-do it rather than sticking to their guns because of The Vision (see: meeting stones, 24 hour clock).  

[Phred]

Personally I welcome this change. It lets them take the shaman in it's own direction without having to deal with the whines to make them equivalent to paladins. As I've seen a lot of lost one shaman type mobs running around it sort of makes sense. Would have been kind of cool to see the blood elves get a slightly different version of a paladin, sort of a shadowknight, but then that'd just open up a whole new can of worms so it's probably better they don't.

A blood elf paladin with ae silence is gonna be nasty in PvP I think.

[Chenghiz]

/goldclap really kinda sums it up, I think.

This really fucks raiding shamans, paladins are better buffers and healers.  There would be very little reason to bring more than a token 1 or 2 shamans to any raid.

Apparently a lot of buffs will stack, so I don't really see shaman becoming useless any time soon.

[Threash]

/goldclap really kinda sums it up, I think.

This really fucks raiding shamans, paladins are better buffers and healers.  There would be very little reason to bring more than a token 1 or 2 shamans to any raid.

Apparently a lot of buffs will stack, so I don't really see shaman becoming useless any time soon.

Maybe so but i heard no mention of expanding raids to 45 people to fit a whole other class, someone will have to give up those spots and when it comes to raiding paladins are better versions of shamans.

[Zane0]

That would seem worrisome, but this expansion is still quite a few months away.  Smart guilds will either temper recruitment and let attrition take its course, or simply give a lot of incentives for some of their members to reroll.

EDIT: What I'm really worried about is that stacking shaman and paladin buffs might be too advantageous.  Some raid encounters may become far easier for raids that take an optimal amount of pallies/shamans.  What Blizz might consequently do is balance future bosses around this- having a good amount of both classes would become a vital near-requirement.

Which would be annoying.  I find that class balance is finicky enough nowadays.

[Simond]

A+ move right there.  Glad to see Blizzard is willing to back down from a stupid design decision and un-do it rather than sticking to their guns because of The Vision (see: meeting stones, 24 hour clock). 

Agreed, also the aborted windfury totem nerf makes complete and utter sense now.

[Modern Angel]

Boy, I don't know about this. This smacks of realizing the Horde issues with raiding and population but only supplying a bandaid at the last moment. I don't think it's a coincidence that this news comes hot on the heels of all the reasonable (gasp!) but heated conversation on raiding imbalance in various places. I think someone took a look at Horde numbers and stuck this in as a quick fix. I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the content is done for BC at base and is not balanced with this change in mind.

[Phred]

Boy, I don't know about this. This smacks of realizing the Horde issues with raiding and population but only supplying a bandaid at the last moment. I don't think it's a coincidence that this news comes hot on the heels of all the reasonable (gasp!) but heated conversation on raiding imbalance in various places. I think someone took a look at Horde numbers and stuck this in as a quick fix. I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the content is done for BC at base and is not balanced with this change in mind.

Or they've been planning it all along and only released the information now to quell the imbalance complaints. Depends if you believe them or not when they say they've been talking about it since release.

[Threash]

You really couldn't fix a horde/alliance inbalance without making shamans and paladins almost exactly the same, one is always going to be better than the other.  This is really the best solution, unless of course you are a raiding shaman in which case i'd be worried about losing my spot in a raid.

[Flood]

Ehhhh, my personal feeling is that it sucks.  I enjoyed there being some differences in the factions. Caveat I'm not a raider and I'm more into open world PvP than BG's.  *shrug*

It doesn't surprise me at all.  It just goes to show that ultimately Blizzard will cave if there's enough crying and hang-wringing, and that their much vaunted lorecentric design gets the bitchslap when it comes to the bottom line.  The premise of the expansion is teh weaksauce anyway.  Anthropomorphic demons that crash in their MOTHER SHIP? 


Ultimately all of the game designs or changes implented are based on keeping the treadmill going.  It's true that the expansion and the changes it brings will greatly affect the geography of PvP and raiding, but in the end all it does it make people play (pay) and catass longer.  It's not enough that Blizzard has monopolized the MMO industry, let's apply the sleeper hold.     

[Modern Angel]

I don't buy that planning this all along thing for one second. It's been brought up a million times before and the answer was always an emphatic no. I'm currently trying to think of a faction vs faction rpg that doesn't have exclusive classes to set up difference between the sides. Can't think of any off the top of my head.

Besides, the implications are just fucking huge.

1) You still would never take a shaman if it meant you trade him for a paladin.
2) If you're set on a hybrid and you know even a little bit about how the classes work post-40 why would you take the slow to level no dps paladin?
3) If you have access to 5 of each class who do you sit out for a shaman? Feral druids are the only things that spring to mind since the physical buffage overlaps a little bit but even then I'm iffy.
4) What makes the factions different beyond cosmetics with this change going through? Nothing.

I'm a very firm believer that they needed to do something to fix Horde raid imbalance but this isn't it. Game is going to feel VERY homogenized now.

[neoarchaic]

What I really don't understand here is why they are just litterally applying the same classes.  Couldn't they have made like a "Shadowknight," "Bloodknight" or whatever you'd call it that would at least have a few differences from a Paladin whilst apeing the overall characteristics?  The "lore" excuse for the whole thing is pretty lame and I think that in some ways it really undermines the overall tone that was adopted by the two opposing sides.  I had previously enjoyed how the Horde stood for a shamanistic approach to life in general, they were not presented as evil but as a deeply spiritual people.  The lore's made lots of references to Thrall's respect for Shamans  etc...  And conversely the Alliance always seemed to me to have a fervent devotion in their own beliefs, no matter the practical cost.  I don't think the game should be built around "lore" but I think that introducing inconsistencies of a massive scale against the thematic construction so far isn't particularly bright.

Gameplay wise I don't care to much, though I wish they would maintain at least some uniqueness.  I do agree with others that Shaman are getting fucked when it comes to raiding, though this is an impression since I don't raid. And as far as PvP goes I think the Horde will probably still dominate and I don't think the Horde domination has ever sprung from an imbalance, but more because the Alliance seems to attract morons.  Of course, if Blood Elves become 60% of the Horde I guess they'll achieve that.

[stray]

Speaking of "lore": Did I miss something? Since when were Elves, or just Blood Elves in particular, ever Paladins? They don't even have anything close to the same gods or religion. Whether they be good or evil.

Not that I play, but I'd rather see even more race/faction specific classes. Not less. Where are the Wardens, Shadowhunters, and Blademasters?

Blood Elf Paladins? That's just fucking lazy.

[Modern Angel]

Speaking of "lore": Did I miss something? Since when were Elves, or just Blood Elves in particular, ever Paladins? They don't even have anything close to the same gods or religion. Whether they be good or evil.

Not that I play, but I'd rather see even more race/faction specific classes. Not less. Where are the Wardens, Shadowhunters, and Blademasters?

Blood Elf Paladins? That's just fucking lazy.

Blood Elves captured a Dranei paladin and cut him up, thereby figuring out the source of his powers and taking them on. That's fucking ridiculous and proves that God must truly be blind or something. From a lore standpoint this is a travesty and I don't even read much of the lore. It's completely incongruous.

There are some good things as far as possible raid designs go in the future; they'll no longer have to design encounters with Horde's weaker mana regen or Alliance's weaker melee white damage in mind. They can make encounters where a paladin or a shaman is required which probably makes them happy.

Thiss does mean that the transition to a pretty much wholly PvE game is likely complete. I have to think the guys at Mythic are licking their lips in anticipation with this news...

[Simond]

I have to think the guys at Mythic are licking their lips in anticipation with this news...

Yes, because EA's history of managing PvP MMOGs is such a shining and bright example.  :-D

[Modern Angel]

I'm working under the assumption that GW/Mythic had most everything sorted before the buy out. If Blizzard is going more PvE with a dash of PvP then WAR has a chance to offer a high profile release that's PvP with some PvE... in other words what alot of people thought WoW would be like.

[El Gallo]

The lore for the Warcraft universe could be recreated by any frustrated 8th grade boy in about 3 hours, just like the lore of just about any video game ever created so who fucking cares about lore?

As for the "people will not want shamans on raids when they could have paladins" we'll have to see what the classes are like at 70 to know for sure.  This at least allows them a lot more flexibility in design for those two classes.

Faction specific classes were a stupid idea to begin with, anyone with a clue knew they'd end up identical, worthless, or seriously imbalancing.  I'm glad they aborted this experiment rather than consigning themselves spending half of their development time trying to ensure content is seperate but equal and slapping dozens of band-aids on the same problem every patch. 

I don't know why anyone things this reflects some deep change in PvE v PvP focus in the game.  You can't swing a dead cat in a PvP forum without hitting (a) some solo world PvPer bitching about shamans or (b) some battleground grouper bitching about paladins.  This improves PvP balance too, now we are back to just bitching about racials!

[Special J]

Yuck! I don't like this at all.  What was wrong with having something that sets the factions apart?  And what pathetic lore to back up their laziness.  Bliz gave in to the whiners.

Yay!  Now as Horde I can make my gay-ass re-skinned evil Night Elf Paladins!  Cept, they're not evil they're uh..wait..they are.. but know how to channel Holy abilities because they dissected a Paladin. Uh WTF?

[WindupAtheist]

WAR is going to be another 300k sub game unnoticed beneath Blizzards' boots.  Period.  Who gives a shit?

[Rasix]

Thiss does mean that the transition to a pretty much wholly PvE game is likely complete.

Crazy talk.  There's not a single alliance v. horde pvp discussion that doesn't boil down to paladin v. shaman.

I have to think the guys at Mythic are licking their lips in anticipation with this news...

Why? Blizzard takes balance seriously.  They will do whatever they need to maintain a balanced game.  Seems to be working out rather well for them. 

Balance in Dark Age was a goddamn joke.  How the hell do you balance the equation when you've got 3 realms and around a dozen classes per realm?  And now WAR is going to have 2 sides, 3 races per side and 4 classes per race?  Hah (at least they took out stealth, right?).

[stray]

anyone with a clue knew they'd end up identical

I don't see how things could be so "identical" if they followed their own games as a template. Wardens, Mountain Kings, Shadowhunters , or Deathknights could be just as standout concepts as Paladins or Shamans.

[Modern Angel]

That's what I mean, Rasix. You have a game with bland meaningless PvP. The only thing that got the masses fired up beyonf "must grind more honor brrraaaiiinnnssss" in this game was the whole paladins/shamans piss me off so much! thing. That's gone leaving you with... what? It's that whole metagame argument that's been going on since day one: is it a game or a world? This is an exclusively gamist thing to do. It doesn't SHOCK me, mind you, since we all know Blizz wants to make a game first but it removes on of the last world first considerations they had.

As for the whole WAR thing... they don't have to beat Blizzard. It doesn't have to be balanced. All it has to do is offer the illusion (or reality if it's actually good) that they have meaningful, fast PvP with differences between the sides to be profitable. 300k? WAR breaks 1 mil, write it down.

[El Gallo]

anyone with a clue knew they'd end up identical

I don't see how things could be so "identical" if they followed their own games as a template. Wardens, Mountain Kings, Shadowhunters , or Deathknights could be just as standout concepts as Paladins or Shamans.

I didn't say they'd end up identical, I said identical OR worthless OR a neverending balance nightmare.  Seeing as all three options suck, I think they did the right thing by eliminating the source of the problem.

Balancing a MMO with up to 40 members of many different classes interacting in different environments is about a kajillion times harder than balancing a RTS with 2 or 4 sides playing on fixed maps.  In WoW, paladins and shamans are somewhat different, and a neverending balance nightmare.  Read any of the threads spawned by the proposed windfury nerf and you will see that many of the apparently minor variations between the two classes have resulted in pretty significant balance issues.

Even if you think it should be easy to make them separate but equal (it isn't, it's fucking hard), Blizzard has shown consistently that it is far, far, far beyond its ability to make them separate but equal.

[Modern Angel]

Which is, of course, the upside. Up until nnow they've ostensibly had to tune encounters to the weakest of the two factions in a given situation. All the lore, world, blandness whatever considerations aside it's going to make for more interesting end game encounters.

[Rasix]

That's gone leaving you with... what?

Same thing as you had before: horde v. alliance.  Except now all of the arguments will focus on racial abilities and battleground layouts. 

WoW has always been willing to sacrifice their worldly elements for the glory of the game.  Because... it's a game. I've really never thought of it as much more than that.

[Fordel]

Putting aside the lore concerns for a moment, I really wonder what it's going to end up doing to the actual mechanical balance.


Windfury + Strength of Earth + Kings + Might = HolyShit Melee DPS


Assuming they let it all stack to begin with.

[Modern Angel]

They said that most of the buffs will stack but not all. I tend to think Mana Spring might not stack with Wisdom, same with Tranquil Air and Salvation. Just my guess though.

[caladein]

Well, according to a quote from the WoW Europe boards (Curse Gaming article), they'll be adding in racial abilities for Paladins and Shamans, so that would help out with differentiating between Alliance and Horde raids.