Alliance Shaman + Horde Paladins

[Modern Angel]

Well, according to a quote from the WoW Europe boards (Curse Gaming article), they'll be adding in racial abilities for Paladins and Shamans, so that would help out with differentiating between Alliance and Horde raids.

Blood Elf paladins get fear ward. You heard it here first.

[Righ]

This is really the best solution, unless of course you are a raiding shaman in which case i'd be worried about losing my spot in a raid.

They have the same amount of time as every other Horde player to level up a Belf paladin. Hopefully Blizzard wll remember to change the code that prevents paladin set drops for Horde and shaman set drops for Alliance.

[Fabricated]

Pally on Pally PVP will be great. Imagine a AB match with nothing but pallys. Basically, it'd go on until one side got bored and quit.

[Jayce]

The only thing that got the masses fired up beyonf "must grind more honor brrraaaiiinnnssss" in this game was the whole paladins/shamans piss me off so much! thing. That's gone leaving you with... what?

I think this proves Godel's incompleteness theorem applies to gaming communities too.  There will never be an end to the bitching because if all the reasons to bitch go away, you people will bitch about the lack of things to bitch about.

[Jeff Kelly]

I think this proves Godel's incompleteness theorem applies to gaming communities too.  There will never be an end to the bitching because if all the reasons to bitch go away, you people will bitch about the lack of things to bitch about.

This is extremely sig-worthy in a nerdy kind of way ;-)

[Special J]

Well, according to a quote from the WoW Europe boards (Curse Gaming article), they'll be adding in racial abilities for Paladins and Shamans, so that would help out with differentiating between Alliance and Horde raids.

So they say.  I suspect the racial abilities will end up being inconsequential so the raids will be identical. After all, they already had racial abilities that differentiated the raids - paladins and shamans.

[Modern Angel]

Touche, Jayce. Though it should be noted that I don't bitch about pallies or shamans. I bitch about the fact that their pvp system is so fucking lifeless.

[Righ]

The only thing that got the masses fired up beyonf "must grind more honor brrraaaiiinnnssss" in this game was the whole paladins/shamans piss me off so much! thing. That's gone leaving you with... what?

I think this proves Godel's incompleteness theorem applies to gaming communities too.  There will never be an end to the bitching because if all the reasons to bitch go away, you people will bitch about the lack of things to bitch about.

Between you, you've just postulated that this puts an end to all the things to bitch about in WoW, making you perhaps the most deluded fanboys ever.

[Sairon]

I thought only 1 unique class per faction was weak from the get go, fuck a 9 class total is freaking weak, even if they're fairly unique. They have always taken the easy way out, that's what has made this game so boring for me. I'm the type of player which finds it fun to explore builds, item combinations etc. However EVERYTHING is so normalized in WoW that this little meta game doesn't exist. I've never seen a MMORPG with so boring loot for example.

[caladein]

They have always taken the easy way out, that's what has made this game so boring for me. I'm the type of player which finds it fun to explore builds, item combinations etc.

Druid?

[Jayce]

The only thing that got the masses fired up beyonf "must grind more honor brrraaaiiinnnssss" in this game was the whole paladins/shamans piss me off so much! thing. That's gone leaving you with... what?

I think this proves Godel's incompleteness theorem applies to gaming communities too.  There will never be an end to the bitching because if all the reasons to bitch go away, you people will bitch about the lack of things to bitch about.

Between you, you've just postulated that this puts an end to all the things to bitch about in WoW, making you perhaps the most deluded fanboys ever.

Diluted, please.

[WindiaN]

orc casters with concentration aura :/

[Strazos]

This is a stupid move. Why even have different sides now? This would be like allowing both Ts and CTs in CS to buy the same weapons.

[Righ]

Why even have different sides now?

"Player created content".

[Koyasha]

I never really anticipated this move, but to me it makes sense.  Horde bitches about Paladins, Alliance bitches about Shamans, and the only way any of that will ever stop (or at least be reduced, because of course now there will be bitching that 3 Horde races can be Shamans compared to Alliance's 1, and 3 Alliance races can be Paladins compared to Horde's 1) is to just give both sides each others classes.  I've never been a big fan of trying separate-but-equal classes either, since in the esoteric world of Game Balance, you can't exactly just assign a point value to each ability and have them match up.  Abilities are much too complex for that.

Balance like that seemed to work in games like Starcraft and Warcraft III for the most part because units were collections of stats.  There was very little creative application of abilities possible.  It's nowhere near as easy to balance different but equal abilities in the field of gameplay of an MMOG like WoW.  Most importantly, shamans and paladins are two completely different roles, never designed to counter each other or be similar in the first place.

In my opinion at least, it's not a bad move.  It'll let them get off at least some of the Horde Vs. Alliance crap, and continue making real content instead of trying to balance shamans and paladins against each other.

[Strazos]

I'll never understand Blizzard's penchant for caving in to people crying on their boards....I mean, WTF, who is the developer here?

[stray]

Well....The alternative sucks far worse. I'll say that much.

[caladein]

I'll never understand Blizzard's penchant for caving in to people crying on their boards....I mean, WTF, who is the developer here?

Well, when the difference in high-end raid progression is so stark... yeah, whoever the developer is, they've done something wrong.

[Triforcer]

February 24th, 2013
Blizzard unveils World of Warcraft: Rise of the Machines

The storms of change are roiling Azeroth.  The war of the Elder Gods and the remnants of the Burning Legion have ripped a hole in the very fabric of the multiverse itself.  Through this vortex have come a new scourge- strangely armored humans, an incredibly advanced race known as the Protoss, and the ravening bioweapons known as the Zerg.  Battle it out in the skies of Azeroth in armored warships, as either the races of Azeroth or the new invaders from the far end of the multiverse.

P.S. Also Picard will be there, so the ships have teleporters and photon torpedoes.  He came via Vortex  Kel'Thuzad vibrating molecules rift etc.   

[Ironwood]

Don't joke.

[Mesozoic]

I thought only 1 unique class per faction was weak from the get go, fuck a 9 class total is freaking weak, even if they're fairly unique.

I never understand this logic.  Nine's no good, so...what..add nine more?  Then if that doesn't work, maybe shoot for 30?  Maybe each individual spec should be its own class?  Its about the total range of play options, not the number of classes.

[Xanthippe]

I think it's a good idea, and I am interested in seeing how it all sorts out.  I don't think the sky will fall.

But then, I don't play a shaman nor a paladin.  If I did, I might see things differently.

[bhodi]

My paladin friends are all excited on the theory that now they'll be able to branch out the paladin a bit more, specifically into the off-tanking role, now that they have another support class to bolster the raid balance.

[Modern Angel]

My paladin friends are all excited on the theory that now they'll be able to branch out the paladin a bit more, specifically into the off-tanking role, now that they have another support class to bolster the raid balance.

That's part of the reason I've warmed to the idea. All of this is moot since we don't know what 70's going to be like. General concensus is that the new abilities between 61-70 are going to drive the classes in new directions. Not having to have shamans and paladins be some sort of couterweight to one another lets Blizzard refine their skills more. I'm thinking paladin tanking, +spell damage totems, etc.

It also really opens up larger dungeons design since they won't have to worry whether Horde mana regen/Alliance melee dps can keep up with the other side.

[Righ]

Its about the total range of play options, not the number of classes.

I agree with that, but I'd suggest that the total range of play options in WoW is poor by this genre's standards. Blizzard may have excelled in their implementation of a number of MMORPG themes, but flexibility of character definition wasn't one of them. Not only are there "more classes" in many other games, but the ability to differentiate one's character within a class is often greater. In WoW, you define yourself by your possessions, and in that respect it follows EQ closely. If the equipment types and sources were more varied, and a greater range of equipment were to be viable late ie game, it would likely offer more play options. As it is, the equipment defines play as either the raiding game or battleground grinding with little variation in the results.

[Rasix]

Are we discounting the role of talent specs, or are we just assuming that since everyone raids they have at best 2 possible choices?

[Teleku]

Yeah, see, I always felt wow offered more differentiation than most games.  Almost every class has several viable talent builds that can drastically alter how your character plays.  On top of that, as Righ mentioned, your equipment can help define you as well.  This is why I have several sets of equipment I use depending on the role I'm jumping too.  Different sets of gear can really change how your character performs in a given role. 

[WindupAtheist]

Maybe it's just my MMO background, or the fact that I played a paladin, or the fact that I played no higher than level 39, but I ended up feeling like WoW had almost no differentiation whatsoever.  Pick race, pick class, and you're basically done.  Equip the best items you find, and occasionally sink a talent point into an obscure abstract ability that gives you a 2% greater chance for this or that.

Other than a couple of crucial abilites like Seal of the Crusader and Spiritual Focus, I felt like I could have been putting my points anywhere without it making a real difference.  I'm nowhere near the sort of number-cruncher who would notice that his critical hit chance had increased by 5% or that his healing spells took 8% less mana, or whatever.

[squirrel]

Maybe it's just my MMO background, or the fact that I played a paladin

Most likely that's the issue. Some classes like warlocks and mages are essentially different classes depending on talents. Actually most classes - hunters, rogues, druids as well - are like that. Paladins not so much...

[Zetor]

Most likely that's the issue. Some classes like warlocks and mages are essentially different classes depending on talents. Actually most classes - hunters, rogues, druids as well - are like that. Paladins not so much...

Pretty much yeah. I have a 60 pally, and a 60 lock along with a 60 warrior. I'd have to say that paladins are the most boring and unfun class to solo, *ever*. They kick all kinds of ass in groups though.


-- Z.

[foobar88]

Hey all... new to these boards and late to this thread, but here goes:

My paly in WoW was my frist 60... started him at launch and finally burned out on the game somewhere between BWL and AQ40.  A few points:

- RE: "Lorecentric design"  Blizzard already displayed its willingness to compromise lore in favor of gameplay with the addition of one of the new races in the expansion.  I'm not enough of a warcraft lore dork to remember exactly where the contradiction was, but suffice to say a lot of nerds were pretty pissed.  Basically, they want to have a compelling story line, but gameplay balance comes first.  Remember, BWL didn't even have a story line associated with it... you were just sort of supposed to deduce that nefarian was engineering dragons to do something involving Kalimdor....So blizz continues to play lip service to lore while introducing solid gameplay mechanics, no change here.  The lore has always been secondary to the game itself.  Maybe it was just because I didn't play on an RP server, but I never knew any determined endgame player to bitch about how something was inconsistent with the greater WoW plot... they were all focused on gmaeplay balance.  Many people even made fun of me when I would introduce them to anecdotes from the plots of warcraft 1-3.

- RE: Class/raid balance:  I too fear that come level 70, shamans will become pretty rare.  Before 1.11, shamans were always much worse than paladins as healers, and worse ass offtanks, while still being an inferior DPS class.  The were recently patched to be better healers, but paladins are still more efficient, have better raid buffs (class specific and not as geographically dependant (auras have a much larger radius than totems,)) and they can cleanse.  Now, shamans might be favored in level 70 5- man instances for their superior DPS, and because healing efficiency is not as important there, but 5 man dungeon design allows for a lot more flexibility in strategy and group compsition than raiding instances do, so a paladin's ability to offtank and heal better than a shaman will probably allow for their substitution to a large degree.  In raid instances however, whether they are 40 or 45 man, I can't see shamans being in high demand, unless people are just too lazy to reroll pallies on old servers (a senitment I fully understand, having leveled a paladin once...)  Class roles are just so specialized in raid instances... neither a paladin or a shaman can offtank, only warriors and some feral druids can do that.  They will be reduced to their ability to heal, where a paladin will always win out.  A few token shamans should be kept around for their buffs, but I see paladins being favored overall by a considerable margin.

-RE: "Shadowknights" or slightly differentiated versions of paladins/shamans:  WoW's class system precludes this.  WoW has a very limited number of classes, most of which are very differentiated from each other in terms of their role.  A hunter is very different from a warrior, who is different from a priest, etc.  Blizzard may have shot themselves in the foot when they originally created shamans and paladins because they are so similar in terms of role, yet subtly differentiated from each other.  They are both offtanks/healers with slight differences in implementation.  Given that people are already discussing the fact that it will be confusing to have shamans and paladins in the same raid, I really don't see how there is room in the blizzard class system for some sort of "shadowknight" hybrid.  The class just would not be able to differentiate itself enough from paladins and shamans to feel as though it really fit within the WoW class system.  Either the differences would look and feel superficial, would be game breaking, or be wholly ineffective.  The only real implementation of a "shadowknight" I can see is to eliminate the paladin and the shaman classes altogether and replace them with a "shadowknight," a class with the ability to heal and do dps, purge and cleanse....obviously imba.

-RE: no MMO has different classes for different factions:  Perhaps you meant to say no GOOD MMO has different classes for opposing factions.  Though I left SWG right before the Jedi revamp (pre expansions) the game does have light and dark jedi on opposing factions.  Granted, the game had no long term overarching consistency or vision, the devs swung the nerf and buff bats around like crazy, and the overall "Star Wars" feel was simply lacking, but it is an example of a game with opposing sides having differentiated classes.  Maybe someone with more experience with that game and its current Jedi system can speak to the matchups.

Good discussion here, I predict many hours of procrastination at work...

[caladein]

Many people even made fun of me when I would introduce them to anecdotes from the plots of warcraft 1-3.

Those are probably the most interesting parts for me, this isn't some C-rate fantasy on the official site, but it's small, relatively consistent anecdotes throughout the game. I always found it great how when you go into SM Library, there are actually books you can read in there :P. (Ashkandi is another good example.)

-RE: Class/raid balance <stuff>

Well, the "token" slots are also becoming very apparent for Warlocks (Curses of Doom, Shadows, and Elements) as well. You'll probably still want a Shaman in the Main Tank's group, along with one in any of the melee DPS groups, so we'll still be seeing at least 3-4. That said, Shamans are still really nice, and if a raid is hurting for healers, or support, you're still valuable outside of your token abilities, no question.

-RE: "Shadowknights" or slightly differentiated versions of paladins/shamans:  WoW's class system precludes this. ...

I agree with you there, that we really don't need a different class proper for Blood Elf Paladins, just as we don't have a different class for Undead Priests, but they are differentiated rather well via racial spells. So, we'll probably see very offensive (maybe even requiring you to take damage to do so) Class Racials for the Blood Elf Pallies so they feel different from their Alliance counterparts.

-RE: no MMO has different classes for different factions:  Perhaps you meant to say no GOOD MMO has different classes for opposing factions.  Though I left SWG right before the Jedi revamp (pre expansions) the game does have light and dark jedi on opposing factions.

During the Force Ranking System (think WoW's Honor System, but more of a PITA, and much more open to exploitation), there wasn't a difference between an Imperial (Dark) or Rebel (Light) Jedi at all during the experience "grind" part (and a Rebel Jedi could choose to take Powers, Lightsabers, and some Enhancement if he wanted, same as an Imperial could go Lightsaber/Healing/Powers). Once you reached Knight (well, you had to kill certain factional targets in an instance for example during your Knight Trials, but they were just mirrors of each other) you actually were considered Light or Dark. Post-Knight, the differences were merely bonuses to say... Dark Jedi Knights had bonuses to the Powers tree (Force Choke, Lightning, etc.) while Jedi Knights had bonuses to Healing and Enhancement (Force Healing, Force Run, Force Speed, etc.). Minor bonuses in mechanics, but at least the robes were different looking.

Directly after the NGE, there was no difference between Light and Dark, but you could wear robes/cloaks with different colors . Now, with their Expertise system (think talents, but with only two sets at the moment) you can choose to take both light and dark abilities (say, have Force Choke and Improved Healing) or you can choose to take your Dark abilities to a certain level, and then focus on your Neutral abilities.

Think like an Elemental Mage pre-Mage Review... yeah. Most people are taking Core abilities + Light or Dark.

But no, SWG has never really had solid differentiation between Light and Dark Jedi (apart from saying, "This is a Dark Jedi Knight, scary looking, no? He will always be flagged for PvP as an Imperial... untill he drops out of the FRS and redoes his Knight trials that is."), now, you have some in terms of the skills you can choose, but then, you can always respec.

[jpark]

Pally on Pally PVP will be great. Imagine a AB match with nothing but pallys. Basically, it'd go on until one side got bored and quit.

hehe.

I am sure that the side with the most paladins in its group is destined to lose a given WSG.  Most paladins "do damage" it seems and offer little support.  This is one theory I have as to why alliance sucks in WSG.  Now that suckage will be shared.

[Righ]

Different sets of gear can really change how your character performs in a given role. 

Not really, and that was the point I was making. The itemization in WoW is staggeringly bad given that its fundamental to the design.

[jpark]

Different sets of gear can really change how your character performs in a given role. 

Not really, and that was the point I was making. The itemization in WoW is staggeringly bad given that its fundamental to the design.

For tanking on raids this is true.  If you don't have the resist gear - it's not going to happen.